Marla Hughes- Spirituality, Consciousness, and the Incredible Wisdom of Children

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And I've got with me today Marla Hughes. And Marla has written a book about— for children, and we're going to talk about that today. But what I want to do first is introduce her. Marla has worked with children her entire life in a number of different capacities. She worked at the transplant unit of UCSF Hospital in San Francisco, where she taught children about exercise, nutrition, and relaxation. She worked with Dr. Gerald Jampolsky at the Center for Attitude and Attitudinal Healing, using art and music therapy to help young children who had life-threatening diseases. Who had a parent or loved one who was severely ill. Her podcast, Interviews with Innocence, features experts in the fields of science and metaphysics who focus on children and spirituality. Marla is the founder of the Ethiopian Family Fund, and that's ethiopianfamilyfund.org, which is a nonprofit dedicated to developing sustainable education and healthcare for Ethiopian children and their families. And according to Marla, her greatest children— teachers have been her children, She said she's never experienced a love that deep or that profound. And she recently finished her first children's book, which I mentioned earlier, Love Magic. And that's what we're gonna be talking about today, among other things. So with that, I'd like to welcome Marla Hughes.

Brian, thank you so much for having me. It's good to— good to see you again. And I know we've kind of been down the same path. So it's always an honor to kind of share, you know, share stories and experiences and So thanks, thanks for having me.

Well, it's good to have you here. So for our listeners that aren't familiar with the story, why is it that you're so interested in working with children specifically?

Well, I, I've always been very childlike myself, and it just kind of is just the way I am. And children and, and dogs, that's my, that's my passion. So Anyway, as you mentioned in, in my bio, you know, I worked with kids quite a bit in my career, and I just so love their innocence, their wonder at things, their finding awe every day, just living in the present. And a big part of my, um, the reason for also starting this podcast, am writing this book. It's not just for children— well, it is, but it's for all of us. It's also for our inner child to try to live, you know, more present and just remember. So anyway, I'll just start, start at the very beginning. So I have 3 children and, um, a husband and 2 Labradoodles. And, um, we just had this beautiful, and we still do, beautiful family. The kids were my twins, and then Dean was one year older. So it was kind of like we had a little preschool at the preschool house. And we just traveled a lot. And we just had such amazing experiences. I mean, sometimes I just think to myself how, you know, I'm just so blessed. I just can't believe how just beautiful. This is— and I know you felt— you feel the same way about your family. And a little over 4 years ago, tragically, my 19-year-old son Dean transitioned, and it just broke, broke our worlds open. Because we, we were just so close. And even if you aren't close, it breaks your, you know, breaks your world open. And because you're also always soulfully close. But as you, I just really didn't know what to do. So I went really down the path of trying to find out what, you know, where did he go? What happens after, you know, someone transitions? And I had never— I always kind of thought I was spiritual, you know, I was a yogi. And but now I know that I really wasn't in the sense of really exploring all the different avenues of spirituality. And A couple of things happened as I was beginning my journey. And one of those was that my girlfriend, who's very clairvoyant, wrote me one night. She called me later to tell me about this. But one night, Dean came to her. And she had gone into her playroom and written down, channeled what he had said. And even in that letter, he talked about, you know, his, his life when this learning, his learning on this earthly realm was complete, and that it was time for him to move on. And, and I have a lot of letters transcribed from, from her and from other, some other mediums. But he also, well, I'll just read just a little, really a little bit of what he said, if you don't mind. You and Dad were cherished and divine gift to me. My soul, however, has a bigger job to do. I was on Earth at that time to experience the discorting of the love that I lived and the unloved that I saw in the world. And I am here now to bridge these worlds, to bring forth the words, the songs, the quotes, the mantras, the little reminders that lead us back to the childlike state of truth and love. Simply put, I am here in your world and mine to put back into people's minds and hearts so as to allow authentic loving experiences through playful joyful ways to drop back into authentic pure honest, simply put, love. So as we move forward, Mama, please let me tell you, hear me, I am grateful for you and your loving mothering And I am here where I'm supposed to be to do my life's plan and purpose, and that is to be a reminder of the pure and simple love. Without it, meaning has— life has no meaning. So let's begin our new adventure. Hear my word, hear my songs, hear my voice. Bring it through to all who— those who need it. Be a mother to the world. Only your heart can possibly hold this message and share this love. Do it for me, Mom, please. I love you in only the way you and I would understand. I know you know what that means. I have your heart as you always have mine. I love you. Your Tino. So brings tears to my eyes. And so this was just a couple of weeks after everything happened. And I was talking to my girlfriend, and I was telling her about how I'd had a dream about Dean. And she said, well, I have something to share with you. But I wanted to make sure it was the right time. And so on I'll never forget, I was walking the dogs, I just sat down on the curb and said, please read it to me, and just broke into tears. But it was, it was confusing. Because for my list, for your listeners who have— I know a lot have, you know, have loved ones transition, because all this stuff is so new to you, and you want it to be true so badly, but you just don't know what to do with it. So you just hold on, you just hold on tight. And Dean was just fun-loving. It's— I used to say to people, it's just so weird. He's just so happy all the time. And even with his— anyway, he was just, you know, one, one of those kids. And so moving forward, I decided to explore a little bit and just a few of my experiences, my first experience with— they don't call themselves mediums, but I have a good girlfriend here in Colorado. And she said, I have friends, or a couple that help people talk to those who have transitioned. And I'm wondering, I was wondering if you might be interested. She said, I'm not sure if Dean will come through. She knew Dean very well, because we traveled, as you mentioned, I work in Ethiopia. And she had been there with us. And we've done a lot of traveling together. And So in— I'm— I was like, yes, absolutely. So it ends up this guy, and I can't— I'm not allowed to use his name, but he is this very well-known scientist who's worked with Francis Crick and Edward— Ed Lewis, who are both founder, co-founders of DNA. And, and he and his wife had had— I think it was a granddaughter who had transitioned, and they went to someone who's— who helped them, who did a mediumship reading for them, and they were just so taken aback by like, how does this work? How did they do this? And so they decided to start trying. And even though I know some people don't like the idea of using a board, they don't call it a Ouija board, but that's their vessel to get the message through. And I was just so impressed because being, you know, from sort of, sort of a science, scientific background, you know, in Western civilization, that's what you want. You want the proof, right? Right. And knowing that he was this renowned scientist and was, you know, dipping his— not only dipping his toes, they help people, just family and friends, or friends and family, family and friends, and do it out of the kindness of their hearts. And they just brought through these amazing messages. And that's when I said, I've got to like really start exploring this. So as I did, I really dove into near-death experiences. I went to, went to the UK for mediumship workshops and physical séances. And just, just all, I, you know, plant medicine, just all kinds of different things. And I must say that in all my journeys over the 4 years, I now know that for my heart, for my heart, I— there is a knowing that, you know, that this life is eternal. And I, I do consider that such a gift to know that. Um, so I kept getting all these signs for Dean, and I'll just— I'll tell you a couple of those because it's so important just to be aware. And just, you know, and this is part of getting— being quiet and present. And he had— we had gone to Ethiopia. And he was— it's kind of a long story, I'm not going to get into it. But he— our children did this. They weren't really theater kids. But this was like a bicultural program that kind of traveled. It was based out of Colorado. And so anyway, we go to different countries and work with the school there, and they would put on a show, um, and it was usually folklore about the country. And this was Fire on the Mountain, and Dean was only 11 years old, and they dressed him up like, um, he was Bob Marley, and, um, he sang Three Little Birds, which is, you know, everything's going to be all right. And so a few years— not a few years, I'm sorry, about probably 3 or 4 weeks after, after Dean transitioned, my girlfriend called me and she didn't know we had gone to Ethiopia because we had kind of gone our separate ways as we were raising kids. And, and she said it was so weird. Dean came to me last night. Oh, and Dean loved the monkeys in Ethiopia. He was always feeding them and there are monkeys everywhere. It was a little village called Wondo Gannet. And she said he was like swinging from tree to tree, like it was almost like a monkey. And he was saying something like, it's going to be all right, it's going to be all right. And so that was such a— that, you know, that was such a huge sign, knowing that she didn't know anything about, about us going to Ethiopia. Another beautiful sign I received was from a medium when she told me that there was something about Gene. And I said, gee, and I really don't know, you know, anything about that. Or I know someone named that. And she said, no, no, it's not. It's like genes, G-E-N-E, and chromosomes. And, and that he's thanking you for bringing him into this life, and so that he could fulfill his purpose. And no one knew this, not even my in-laws or my parents, that we had an irregular amnio with, with Dean. And we had to make the decision on whether we met with a geneticist. And it wasn't a hard decision for us. But we, you know, had to meet with a geneticist and make a decision whether we were going to bring him into this world or not. So just millions of them, you've gotten millions of them too. And I know a lot of your, a lot of your guests have talked about signs and, and in an interview that we did before, I think I told even more of those if somebody wants to listen to that, but the whole, just the children part of it came, just came back, kept coming back to me in little simple ways. And one day I said to my daughter, I asked her, if you do think— they grew up— I'm Christian. Well, I'm spiritual, but my husband's Jewish. So they had a bar and bat mitzvah, but there was never any, you know, they didn't know anything about— they never talked about the afterlife or death or anything like that, which I think many religions Don't. And I said, do you think just it would have been a little bit easier— of course you still have to grieve— but if you would have just been raised, you know, knowing that life is eternal and having, you know, a caregiver encourage you to talk about your memories as a young child? Or because we hear so many young children talking about past lives and about choosing parents and you look at Ian Stevenson's, or University of Virginia, they're just doing all sorts of things examining these stories from children. And she said, you know, I really think it would have. And I'll never forget that. And that just kind of, you know, finally lit me totally on fire. So I decided I was going to write a book and I was going to gather stories like Wayne Dyer. I was going to continue his work because he wrote a beautiful book called Memories of Heaven. And I suggest that, that people run out and get that. And it's a compilation of stories from parents all over the world, telling about what their 2, 3, 4-year-olds have said. And it's all across the board from, like I said, choosing parents to reincarnation, to meeting loved ones in heaven before they come here, that they would have never known and and this and that. But I didn't have anybody to— my world, and still a big— I don't know about you, Brian D Smith, but still my world doesn't encompass people that talk about this kind of stuff, you know. I mean, thank goodness we have each other and our podcast and all the beautiful people we meet. But I— so I really didn't have a circle to even start gathering stories. And So I thought, well, I'll start a podcast. I called Sandra Champlain, and she was kind enough to email me back. I emailed her, and I just started. And I decided I really wanted to focus on celebrating the wisdom that children bring into our lives and also our, you know, our inner childlike self, and to open up the door for caretakers and parents to really recognize that we— and we do know this, but we're the leaders. And it's actually my book, which I'll hold up right here. It is called Love Magic, and this is on my, my daughter on the front, Carly. She has crazy wild hair, or she did when she was little. And Cosmo, that's our puppy, he's laying on the bed right behind me. And it also is about Pop Pop, my father-in-law that we were all very close to, that, that passed. And it's all about signs and synchronicities and rituals and being present. And, um, so anyway, to get back to my— briefly before I wrote the book, back to my podcast, I just decided that I would begin it. And I was very fortunate to meet Raymond Moody in the very beginning of my podcast, and we became very good friends. And so I've been so honored to interview, you know, a lot of people. And it's interesting, because everyone I talked to, there's always something about the importance of children understanding that life is eternal, and that there's something bigger, something bigger in this world.. And I truly believe I have a little list of what-ifs. And I truly believe that parents understood and knew with all their hearts that our souls are eternal, that we lived before this earthly existence. And we will continue to live forever after, after we leave this earthly world. And we are on this earth to learn lessons and be the best we can be. I think of a child losing a pet. What if child, sad as they may be, trusted that their pet was going to another world, another dimension, just another beautiful place where there would only be love, peace, and acceptance, and they would absolutely be reunited with their pet when the time came? And if heaven was redefined for children, knowing that it was very much like the earthly realm but you know, once again, with love and, and that the world would change forever. Not just because they would know that their loved ones are not gone. I mean, that it could just be because of that, because that's plenty. But also, our children are going through so much. And in everyone, you know, most people do. There's a lot of, you know, I don't want to talk about trauma, but what goes on in childhood. And I really believe that teaching our children this through rituals, ceremonies, once again learning about signs and synchronicities, that they develop an inner strength that helps them navigate this world. And they know how to be quiet, they know how to be present. If we— I interviewed one gentleman who had worked a lot in Bali, and he talked about a, I think they call it a maloka, even though that's what you usually call the tent-like structure in a plant medicine retreat. But this is for the children, and it was just a place for them. And they knew it was the place where you just go in and you're just quiet. And they're basically, you know, meditating, but they're just being present. And what is one of the most favorite places for the children to go so that they would learn just like we have, everything we've learned since our children have transitioned. What a beautiful thing if they learn all of that, not because necessarily they've had a loved one transition, but because it is interweaved into the fabric of their lives. Yeah. And I just believe this so strongly. And I, as you know, Peter Panagore, I always go back to— he said, he said on his interview, and many others, that the only question he was asked when he had his profound NDE, the only question he was asked when he was on the other side was how did you love, how did you treat others. So that Golden Rule of, of how do you treat others, and also within this interweaving of this fabric, which many talk about, as Bruce Grayson talks about, that the Golden Rule, that it is not just something nice we made up, you know, it really is interweaved into the fabric of the universe. Actually, I think that was— I don't mean to be throwing around names here, but I've just researched a lot. That was Dr. Eben Alexander. And I know you've had all these guys on your podcast, so people know who I'm talking about. And I just envision just throughout the day, a child getting up and reminding them, or just quietly being present and asking, who did you help today? Who did you love today? How do you think things? But also within that, that we all struggle and we all have sad times and we all have grief and we all get angry. But how— I was just talking to a friend about this today, how different my life would have been if that would have been woven into my childhood and all of our childhoods. And within that, we as parents, caregivers, people who, who really want to take this on, it brings us back to our inner child. It helps us become more present, more— reminds us to who did we love today, Who did we take care of today? How were we present today? And once again, I don't want it to sound Pollyanna because it's not, because this is life. But I just know it would just change the world. And so with that, I decided I was going to, going to write my book. And in the book, it's a little girl named Charlie, and she really misses her Pop Pop who has gone to heaven. I use that word. You can use whatever word you like, but I use that word simply because that's what I grew up with. I actually really like the word. And her grandma helps her to remember when they were dancing in the rain and the smell of waffles and with whipped cream piled on top with strawberries as they sit and close their eyes and remembering, you know, fresh-baked this and that, and all the different things that Charlie and Pop-pop love to do together. And the mantra of the book is that Pop-pop always told Charlie that when I take my big trip, all you need to do is think of me and I will be there. The most important things in life are not seen with your eyes, but are felt with your heart. And that's what the book is all about. So not to spoil it, but anyway, but then Grandma tells Charlie something really exciting. And that's how those on the other side send us signs. And Pop Pop— I know hummingbirds is, it's a sign for seems a lot of people, but Pop Pop did love hummingbirds. And so she's out on a walk one day with Cosmo, and she runs into this, you know, Cosmo runs, gets, starts running after a rabbit, and she loses control, and all of a sudden she falls on her knees and a big happy tear drops down, and there's a, there's a hummingbird there, and she tells Cosmo all about what the hummingbird means and earlier in the book Grandma asked her if she believed, and Charlie says, "I think so, but Grandma, how does it work?" And so as the story goes, and she sees the hummingbird, you know, at the end, she knows it's Pop-pop, and she knows it's a beautiful sign that he'll always be with her and can hear his whistling as she, you know, as she runs home with Cosmos. So that's, that's what the book's about. And I really want to get it out to, you know, family and friends, of course, but like helping parents heal and other. And but not once again, not just that, it's for everybody, because we all get signs and synchronicities from, from the universe all the time. You know that very, very well. And so just to open up, you know, the people's hearts and take a little time each day to really think about your inner child and what you can do to help a child in your life remember and, and, you know, do those sorts of things.

Yeah. Yeah, that, that sounds like a wonderful, wonderful, much-needed book. You know, there's several things you touched on there that I'd like to explore a little bit more. You know, you talked about, you know, you were raised Christian, I was raised Christian. But in the church, we kind of talk about the afterlife, we talk about heaven, but it's usually very general terms. We don't talk about, as you said, how does it work and stuff like that. We don't really— we don't. And it's so— my experience has been a lot of people, they say they believe in that, but they don't really, right? Right. And then when the rubber hits the road, when we lose a loved one, then we run around asking, what happened? Where did they go? And then we really want to know. So I— but as I think about your book, and I'm thinking, I have a niece that was just born a few weeks ago, and I'm thinking, this would be a great book to give to her mother. But I could see people hesitating, saying, well, I don't want to teach my child to think about death, because in our society, It's a bad thing. We don't want to think about it, you know. So that's— I love your idea of like, let's make this a part of life. Let's understand that whole thing.

Yeah, yeah, I actually had another interview just— no, I haven't interviewed her yet. We just had a pre-conversation, Julie Ryan. I don't know if she's been on the show yet. But she was talking about how with a child just asking them, what do you think that flower— what songs do the flowers sing? Or, you know, just questions like that, just for them to start using their imagination and to know once again that there's just something bigger and something that we can go to when we're feeling sad. And but, but, you know, you need to have the the caregiver and the adult be, be present too, to be with them, to teach them, because that's, you know, that's where they learn from.

Yeah, it's interesting, because a few weeks ago, we had, you and I had an email exchange, and you talked about the story from the Babylonian Talmud.

Yes, I have it right here.

I had heard from some of my Jewish friends. And so the story, for people that don't know, there's the angel Layla, who lays her finger across the lips of a child that's coming into the world. And they, they forget who they are, where they came from. And as I think about that, I'm like, is that really the way it is? Because I believe that babies, they still remember where they come from. You look at babies, they're looking around the room, or like, what are they looking at? And children will tell us things, you know, they view the world as a magical place. They come in, they're like, this place is magical, anything can happen. And then we adults tell them, well, no, that's just your imagination. That's not the way it works. So how do you think that works today? Do they come in and they've forgotten? Or what do you think happens?

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grieftogrowth.com, www.grief2growth.com. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grieftogrowth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth. The number 2-G-R-O-W-T-H to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief 2 Growth. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing my Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Oh no, do you mind if I read that story just because it's, it's kind of the Babylonian? Yeah, just, just as more in a childlike sort of— okay, sure. So, and then I'll answer your question. Beautiful teaching that in the Babylonian Talmud, according to this medieval Jewish text, the angel Lila lives in the womb and watches over the embryo until it is time to be born. The angel teaches the unborn child everything there is to know about the mysteries of life and their soul. Layla also places a lighted candle at the head of the unborn infant so they can see from one end of the universe to the other. Then when the time comes for the child to be born, the angel Layla puts her finger in front of her mouth as if to say shh and then presses the child's upper lip so all memories are forgotten. According to the story, the light touch on the child's lip leaves a slight indentation above the lip called a philtrum, which we all have. I think perhaps the angel Lila did not press quite hard enough on some children's lips, and this is why some come into this current life with soul memories. How blessed we are to have these children share their is done with us. So I just love, I just love the story, the way it was written there. No, I totally agree with you. I believe that children come in and they remember everything. They have most of themselves there, and a teeny bit here trying to learn. And, you know, the research shows until 4 or 5 years old, that these children, they see spirit, they talk to angels, they have, many have playmates, invisible playmates. And that's another part of all of this that I didn't really address in my book, but I'm writing another book. And what— read, read Wayne Dyer's book Memories of a Life. Wow. And that they do. But we, once again, as caretakers, we need to validate and we need to be curious. And we need to ask questions. And his whole book started with his assistant who had a 2-year-old. And she was just, you know, gazing at him, you know, just how miraculous and adorable this little guy was. And she was just asking herself, herself, like, where did he come from? Where did— and he looked at— she looked at this little boy and said, you know, Sammy, where did you come from? And he looked up at 2 years old, opened his arms, and he said, light. And then she asked him what God— something about— oh, I'm so sorry, I don't know exactly. But then he said something else profound. And she ran in and told Wayne Dyer, he was like, we're gonna ask the world what these little kids are saying. So I definitely believe that. And to help them not only remember longer, but celebrate what they do remember. So we can then, as they get older, bring that into their learning as they become more earthly, if you will. So they still have one foot in and one foot out, you know, without being, you know, with being able to live fine here. But you know what I'm saying? So I totally agree with you. They're so close to the source. And that's why my podcast is, I say, to celebrate the wisdom of the very young, because they have some— I mean, they're much more wiser than we are. They have so much to teach us, but we just need to be quiet and listen.

Yeah, I completely agree. And I think about my girls, I remember, I think they were about 4 and 7, because they're about 3 years apart. We were sitting at the kitchen table one day, maybe a little younger. And they were talking about being in heaven and choosing us as parents. I remember hearing you say that, and I never heard— I know they did not get that from us. They— we had never— my wife and I, the thought had never even crossed our minds. And I remember talking to my sister-in-law after Shayna passed, and I know that the Mormons believe in pre-existence, right? As, as a person raised in the church I was raised in, I never heard anything about, you know, pre-existence, um, which is something that we're starting to understand, understand now. And I think you and I are similar paths. It's like science and near-death experiences and mediums and all this stuff is kind of telling us that we don't just start existing when we're born, that we actually preexist. And our girls are like, oh yeah, yeah, we remember being in heaven and choosing you guys. And my daughter Shayna always said, I'm not afraid of death. I mean, she, she was just never afraid. And I'm glad we didn't really drum that out of them because I think a lot of parents will ignore that. And we just kind of like, we were curious, like, so what do you mean? They're like, oh yeah, we chose you.

That's so beautiful. I was in a, I was having a conversation today with a very good friend who's really going down the spiritual, spiritual path, kind of reawakening. But she was telling me, without telling you what religion it is, but she remembers when she was in second grade. And she had to go into this place and talk about all the stuff she had done wrong. And it broke my heart because I mean, I wasn't my, you know, thinking about how I was raised. It was very open and God was very cool, loving and all of that. Sounds like you were the same. But that she just grew up feeling like she was bad. And she had, she had done bad things. And even if she didn't have something to tell whomever she was supposed to tell. She made things up because that's the way that life was. That's the way the world was. I thought about that for 2 or 3 days. I just couldn't— second grade, it broke my heart. And that's, you know, and so it's kind of changed. I mean, we're transforming once again. I always go back to, you know, I had to wait till, you know, however old to know all of this and learn all of this and use it for my strength and for my soul. And gosh, if children know that from the very beginning or are validated in everything we've talked about— and I do think kids, the millennials, you know, you talked to PMH, I do think children are coming into this world much more in touch and curious. I know my twins, especially my, my Carly, she's— it's— I think they're really coming in wanting to do it better.

Yeah, you know, there's, there's interesting because a lot of people say that they're— and I think it is kind of is because we need that. The world is so— it's— the world is so messed up that the people that are kind of volunteering to come in now are really soldiers, really, you know, volunteering to try to help turn things around. You know, Indigo Children, I've heard different terms for them, that these children are coming in, you know, kind of remembering and kind of pushing to change things. But as you mentioned earlier, our Western society, we're all about scientific, and I use air quotes for that, because science can only measure certain things, and science has closed so many things. But we want to know about scientific proof. And we think that people that are, that are religious or spiritual, they're silly, or they're delusional. You mentioned earlier, you know, this, this idea, well, maybe this is too good to be true, because we're little kids, right? We think everything's possible. And we have all these great fairy tales that, you know, and everything always works out all right in the end. And then we're told, no, that's not the way it is. It's don't, don't even think about it. And then we come around to where you and I are now, we realize It is magical, and everything is possible, and everything is going to be okay in the end. And then we start to question it. A little voice comes in our mind and says, could it? But is that really true?

Right? Right. Yeah. So, so true. Yeah, I've also another path I've taken, which they all intermingle so closely, but is shamanism. And I want to in the future, I want to offer this to caretakers and parents with actual activities that they can do with their young children. And if you don't mind me just sharing just a little bit about what I'm thinking about, you guys let me know what you think. Yeah, but, um, in shamanism, which is the study of indigenous, a shaman is, you know, a medicine man from what we would learn, but the wise man the— and the person who's really in touch with the spiritual world as well as the, you know, as the earthly world. And there's something in the Medicine Wheel, which is kind of the wheel of life, and we can all totally relate to it as you get into it. But there's one part of it, it's called— that's called the Little Red Road, and— or the Good Red Road, and it runs from north to south. So it's kind of like being physical in this world. So Anyway, but it starts with the voice and the heart. And I think of a child and raising them with this kind of always on your mind. So the voice, it's interesting, my teacher puts the voice first, I put the heart first. People kind of decide which one they want to put first, but I put the heart first. So to me, that means celebrate your feelings. Feelings, celebrate your child's feelings, the nudges, the imagination, that we really need to listen to that and not just kind of blow it off, you know, because, because that's where feelings is really where the voice should come from, from the heart. Because when you are working with the voice, you are speaking your truth. So what is your truth? And then it goes up into creating a sacred space. And what I love about the sacred space, and that we should all once again think about and talk to our little ones about, because they know how to do it, is what is sacred? What is— what's sacred to you? And if something is truly sacred then that's where you should be spending a large amount of your time. And what you honor. So let us all look at that. Let's all look in our hearts about that. We say something sacred, you know, but do we really put our energy there? And we need to think about spending more of our time in those sacred— and nothing's more sacred than our kids, right? I mean, I don't think anyone would disagree with that, or children, especially if you have children. How much time do we spend with them? How much time do we do these rituals, ceremonies? So another thing to think about, feeling from your heart, trusting those feelings, then being able to, to voice that from the heart. So this sounds a little bit funny, but like everything that comes from your voice, let it like be an orchestra or a nice piece of music. I mean, obviously that's not going to always happen, but it coming from the heart, then creating that, really looking at what is sacred and, and what do you honor in your life. Once again, where are you putting your— you're putting your time, putting your energy, because with that comes your truth. So what is our truth? And when we really look at these are things that we all really need to think about because you really sit down because we're so caught up in the day-to-day and so much going on. But what is our truth? Because being our truth is about being authentic. And in shamanism, they talk a lot about wearing all these different masks. So, you know, you wear the mask when you're the wife, you, you wear a mask when you're at work, you wear the, you know, you get the whole and taking some, at least some of those masks off and being your authentic self. And once again, the children watching every step of the way of how we're doing that and talking about that. And usually you use stones when you're teaching children, um, at least I do, in terms of just learning a concept and then talking about it for a few days and holding it and And then it goes on up to wisdom, and wisdom is in the north, and the north is the beginning, you know, and that's where the children begin. So that's where they are, that's where they're the source when they come into this world, and then they, you know, filter around the medicine wheel. But it's to really think about those sorts of things. I know that was just a really quick like recap, but bring a ceremony or ritual or something really, you know, not time— really time-consuming into a child's life. Spend time with them and talk about all those different things on a regular basis. How beautiful is that for you as a person doing it for yourself and for them, and for them to have— I mean, that's what I call love.

Yeah.

Sharing that sort of thing.

Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, you were talking earlier about your friend with going in to tell everything they did wrong, and that type of religion, that is more the way that I was raised.

And I always—

so as you were talking about, you know, talking to a child about what's sacred and what's divine, to tell the child themselves that you are sacred, you're divine, and you come from wisdom. Um, you know, and, and not to bash on any particular religion, but, you know, there are religions that tell us that we are evil, that we, that we are, that we are bad. And there was an example, uh, and I've told this before, but people who haven't heard, my daughter was in Sunday school at the church we were going to, and they had her do a little exercise, and that white on one side of the paper and black on the other side of the paper. And they said the white represents God, because God is good and pure and everything, and the black represents you because you're, you're a sinner. And that is kind of the— that's the message that some children, not all, get in our society. And not too long after that, we took our daughter out of that church.

Right.

But, you know, the thing is that this thing you're talking about, it is beautiful. And that's what the indigenous people around the world have known for years. And as we in the West are kind of rediscovering and going, wow, is this really cool? It's like, yeah, we're just kind of coming back around to where we were supposed to be in the first place.

So true. Learning so much from them and so much wisdom there. Yeah, so important.

There is. And, you know, it's really interesting. Last night I was speaking with a young woman who's gone through a tough time. Her mother passed away. And she was like, and we were talking about the two sides of the same coin, because she was raised as a strict atheist. So there is nothing after this, this is all there is, blah, blah, blah. And then when her mother passed, it's like, okay, there's got to be something more. And her eyes are being opened up. But then, then on the other one hand, religion's telling us not to trust ourselves. But on the other hand, our materialist society is telling us don't trust ourselves.

Exactly.

There's nothing else out there. It's all wishful thinking. Just, just listen to us. Accept the reality that you're an accident, that you're only going to be here for a short time. You turn on like a light bulb and you turn off like a light bulb. And I just, as I was speaking with this person, I was like, I just see the damage being done from both sides. And but it was so beautiful watching her eyes start to open up. And as she's discovering things and researching and listening to NDE stories, and and like she was just lighting up as we were talking, uh, to have someone—

these stories. Yeah, they are just— you listen to so many of them and they're, they're just irrefutable. And I love listening to the researchers who have interviewed hundreds, if not thousands, of these people. And I don't know about you, but most of them have ended up very teary reliving some of those, even though they themselves have not had a near-death experience. They're just— and, and the near-death experiences of children and the pictures that they draw and what they talk about. Oh, wow. I just, I just love this.

Well, yeah.

Oh, I know what I wanted to say something quickly. Sure. So I, I've asked a few people this on my podcast, but I've said, so this news is so exciting. This is one of the guys who started— I'm sure he's not watching my interview, but he, he really thought that this knowing that we have now, he thought it was going to become bigger than any religion that's ever been. Once again, not saying any names, but So I was saying, you know, why, why isn't everybody so excited about this? And one of the answers was, I think people have just lost hope. You know, they're just so tired of being hopeful and then it not being true in our leaders, in our whatever it may be. You know, it just broke my heart that many just aren't hopeful. They just don't want to be hurt again. Now, on the other hand, I think that— who was it? Someone said either spiritually lazy or academically ignorant. I think that was Mary Neal. You know, no, and ignorant is not a bad word. It's just not doing, not doing the research and not being interested.

Yeah, well, the thing is, you know, I think, I think about this too. Human nature is— because we're, we're biological animals, right? We are evolved to a certain thing. Human nature is just like in the animal kingdom, we do what works until it doesn't work anymore. And that's, that's actually efficient, right? Why would we change doing something that— because it requires effort to change. So why would we change doing something until it doesn't work anymore? So that's why I think— and as I talk to people, there's usually some catalyst that comes along in your life that kind snaps you out of this. Until then, you're, you're Neo in The Matrix. You're, you're going along, you're living a life day to day, you're doing the drudgery, but, and you don't question because you don't think there's anything better out there. And you don't question until something comes along and says, okay, there must be something better. And, and, and I blame, I blame our society for a lot of it. As you said, there is that disappointment in the leaders, there's disappointment in religion, People grow up in a church, and they're told these things, and they're told to believe these things literally. And they get to be adults, and they're so— they're told Santa Claus isn't real. And they say, well, if Santa Claus is not real, then this not be— it must not be real either. So I'm just done with the whole thing.

Exactly.

And so, you know, as I said, I, I've talked to people who are hardcore atheists, who they call themselves atheists. I would call them materialists. Where there's like, there's nothing other than what I can see in front of my eyes. And then, like, as you were saying earlier, once we get caught on to this, they come in, they come, they're so excited. They're like, there's so much out there, this is going to change the world. And I'm like, I wish and I hope, and that's my mission and that's why I do what I do. But this has been out there for a lot, you know, for—

it has.

We're just happened to come across it now. And, um, through the power of the internet, you know, which allows us to share these stories and be in community. And people like you and I can talk to people who are like us, because otherwise we wouldn't, we'd feel isolated. So now we feel more emboldened to go out and tell people our experiences, you know, if you've had a near-death experience, or you've had a sign like I've had, and like the ones that you've had that have been pretty much miraculous. Yeah, and undeniable. So some people say we're turning the corner. I hope it's true. I really do. And I'm doing everything I can to make sure that we do.

Yeah, you're doing such an amazing job. I just love listening to your— all your different interviews. You know, I really think that there is a transformation happening. I think that things have gotten so— it's just, something's got to change. And you are right. It's kind of like, this is sort of new to me. And well, it's very new to me, to be quite honest. I mean, almost 5 years. And it's been around for a long time. But I've just interviewed some people who've, as you have, who've been down this road for a long, long, long, long time. And they really think it's different now. And I tell you why I think it's different, because science is believing it. I mean, not the materialists, of course. But so many— that's why I love listening to these Doctors and PhDs and these hardcore materialists who've had these experiences, and it has transformed their lives. And now with all of the brain scans and all of the— oh my gosh, all the different things that they're doing. I do think that it's, it's changing. I, and I hope— and it will never be— we will always have duality. We're always going to have that. That's why we're here to learn those lessons. But I'm like you, I have, I have hope. And I just, I just want to plant a seed, you know, be a little bit of a messenger and help all those millennials really get it out there.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I, I've tried to be realistic and skeptical and but remain optimistic at the same time. So when I hear about the shift, and then some people say, oh, it's going to happen overnight, you know, we're going to, we're going to move into the fifth dimension, it's going to happen on December 21st. And I heard about the rapture when I was growing up too. And, you know, so I'm not, I don't think there's going to be a rapid shift like that. But on the other hand, I look at evolution, you know, and so evolution, we think it's what's this natural, slow, steady, state, from this state to this state. But that's not how evolution works. It's actually what they call punctuated equilibrium. So things go along the same for a while, and then something happens, and there's a major shift, right? And I think I was— so where I'm agreeing with what you're saying is, when things get so bad that we— that this way is not working anymore, that's when we change. So when we look around the world, and we look what's going on with politics, and we look at what's going on with the economy. And we look at what's going on right now with healthcare, with COVID and stuff, climate, and climate, you know, so that's when people shift. It's like when we, when we feel like we have to, when this way isn't working anymore. And, you know, the saying, it's always darkest before the dawn, is absolutely true.

We—

that's how humans are built. And I've heard people say, why did I have to go through this painful thing to make the shift? Why did my Why did my child have to transition? Why did my mother have to transition? Why did I have to, you know, be in an accident or get cancer? And I'm like, that's, that's human nature. That's not, that's not a bad thing. That's how we are. That's how we're built. And then we need these things to kind of wake us up.

And I believe, or I have a knowing that, that we do plan this life. Before we come here, and we plan the lessons that we want, want to learn. And as difficult as that is for people to accept, it's really, in my opinion, there can't be— the whole universe is so symmetrical in terms of— I'm not talking about humans, but in terms of nature and just all of it. So there's an order there's an order. How can the human life be random? It can't. There, there's no room for— and if it is random, what's the point? What's the, what's the point? You know, there are a couple of really good interviews out about that, but that we do plan our lessons and that we do have a time when we there are two things that are set for sure, is when we come into this earth and when we leave this earth. And there may be a few different exit points or scenarios for when we do leave this earth, but I, I believe that with all my heart. And I just don't believe that there's random— randomness. And as many as have said after they had a profound your death experience that, as hard as this is to hear, but beauty comes from everything.

Yeah. Well, you know, the interesting thing about the universe being random, you know, if you look at, look at nature, look at the diversity of nature, you look at the human body, which I'm just fascinated that we function at all, because the body is so complex. So on the one hand, it appears to be random. But on the other hand, there's these self-organizing principles, right, that allowed this life to come together. And there's a guy I read many years ago, because he said— I was, I was a fundamentalist Christian at one time, so I started reading books by Christians to try to get myself out of that. And the guy's name is, I think it's Hugo Ross, and he was a cosmo— what do you call the guys that do cosmology?

Cosmologist, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. So he was writing about the chances of life existing on Earth and how fine, or were in the universe at all, and how fine-tuned it had to be. And if this one constant was off by this amount, that life wouldn't exist. And you add up all these constants together that are precisely tuned, and there's a theory that says that, you know, the universe was tuned for life. You know, it's like, there's an old thing, how can there be a watch if there wasn't a watchmaker? If you're walking along the beach and you find a watch, you assume someone made that watch. You don't assume that random forces brought it together. So there is something fascinating about the way the universe does self-organize. And then when we started getting into quantum physics and quantum mechanics, you know, that blew scientists' minds, because they're like, well, we don't know what consciousness is. There's probably no such thing. It's probably just an illusion. And then they said, well, wait a minute, if we use this experiment, if we observe it, it acts this way. If we don't observe it, it acts that way. So not only does it prove there's consciousness, but consciousness has an impact on the material, and then no one understands how that works.

So I think, I think another really important area of study is psychedelics. I've been, I've been researching a lot about psychedelics because I think they're going to change the world. And I don't know if— I think it's cool that I talk about this, but there's a documentary called Fabulous fungi. And it's— I mean, it's just plants. It's, well, just plants. But the research that's going on at Johns Hopkins and University of Penn— I'm not talking about psychedelics that you people used to— I never did that, but I did other things. But that, you know, this is not a rock and roll thing. But the way helping veterans with PTSD, the anxiety, the stress, the pharmaceuticals, the drugs, the— something that can help a person really transform in, in any way. The research is just— that's coming out right now is just so promising. And I think there's a reason, you know, once again, I just trust that there's a reason all these NDE stories are just— other than just the internet and all these— I hate to say credible people, because I think everyone who hasn't— everyone is is credible in their own right. But, but, you know, the physicians, this and that, and all of this research on not only psychedelics, but on meditative practice and holotropic breathing, on how we can get back to that source. I guess that's my point, back to that inner child, back to that spiritual, that invisible, that our materialistic, you know, minds just can't go to. But there seems to be this universal force is bringing all of these things in that's just kind of nudging us, you know, nudging us along. So I have a lot of— and the meditate, you know, everyone meditating so much now and all of that. So I have a lot of hope there too.

Yeah, I do. And I— and it's interesting to see for me, as a scientist, chemical engineer is my background, right? And so I was the one that and they're like, what's the answer? How does this work? Right? So that I was a child, I used to take things apart. And it's great, because I did— I have studied religion, I've studied philosophy. And now science, they're kind of coming to some of the same conclusions. And it's like you're coming from two different directions to the same conclusion. And I hopefully— and I saw— I'm starting to see this a little bit where they're not fighting each other, where they say religion is a separate field of study from our consciousness, I would like to say, or spirituality, if I— is a separate field of study from the physical. These are two branches of the same thing. These are two sides of the same coin. And a thing I say to people, I hate the word supernatural. Yeah, I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe everything is natural. There's some things that we don't understand, and we call it supernatural. So, you know, radio waves a few years ago would have been supernatural. Um, Bluetooth technology on my phone would have been considered supernatural. Someone said you could have a wireless network between your phone and your, and your headphones. You would say that's crazy, there's no such thing. Um, the first guy discovered germs, you know, he said let's wash our hands before we do surgery. I, I think he ended up in a mental institution because they're like, this is not possible, there are no little invisible things called germs, guy. So spiritual people right now, they're looking at saying, because science says, well, we don't know how that works. We don't know what consciousness is. We don't know where it is. We can't cut you open and find it in the body. So therefore, it must not exist. Or if it is there, then it must be risen out of the body. So when the body dies, it stops, it stops. So that's their mindset. So they say, you're crazy if you believe anything else. But all this evidence is coming out now proving they're wrong.

Right. Because isn't it interesting that I remember a very well-known scientist that is not a materialist anymore, he said, but not understanding something, that is why we have science. That's, you know, to take the things that we don't understand and figure it out and do all this research and do all of this And but that's, um, that's not what— that's not what is happening in the materialist world. But I think, you know what, I, I don't— someone said that there was a study done and 50% plus of physicians now really do believe that there is a continuity of consciousness, that— well, maybe not continuity, but it is separate from the brain. So, and it was a reputable source. So it's, even though numbers, I'm always a little bit hesitant about that.

So I think, yeah, I think they're getting there. And as more get there, it gives permission, people, other people permission to get there. And, and there is some study, some scientific study now of consciousness. And to be fair to the scientists, you know, it's easier to study how electrons work than how consciousness works, because you can't set up an experiment in a lab and And that's one thing about consciousness, especially like with near-death experiences, for example, you can't experiment with that, you know, you can study the data, but you can't bring somebody in and kill them and see what happens to them. So we're finding now, as our instruments get better, and as we— our experiments get better, and everybody refers to the double slit experiment, but now that we have that technology, and we can do that, because there was a debate for many, many years, is light a particle or is light a wave. And because obviously, it can't be both. But it actually is. And it changes depending on, on how you look at it. And that's a very, it's a mind-blowing thing. But that's been proven time and time again, through, you know, various experiments, and also showing that consciousness can work backwards in time, which really freaks people out.

Right? Right. I find it interesting too. Is it William, William Shaffner that just who just went to the moon.

Yeah, just went up in space.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, listening to him, and I can't remember which astronaut— you probably know— that went into space and then came back and started the Institute of Noetic Sciences.

Yes.

Um, that, but that they, they do these things which are also going to be coming much more prominent before we know it. And they just cry when they talk about it, because they just know that there's so much more, so much, you know, and that's pretty exciting, too.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we're, we're getting to the end of our time. I can talk to you all day. Looking at the clock, it's like we should probably wrap up. I really appreciate having you here. Really enjoy the conversation. Tell people where they can reach you and how they can find out more about you?

Yes, um, well, you go to my website, interviewswithinnocence.com, and you can email me, um, through the website or at marlahughes116@gmail.com. And yeah, my book is called Love Magic, and it's on Amazon, and you probably need to put by Marla Hughes because it just went out. It's H-U-G-H-E-S. And it's pretty easy. It's pretty easy to find.

So yeah, the book looks beautiful. I think it'd be a great gift to give to someone with children and to start to introduce, introduce these concepts that they already know, but to keep them from losing these concepts as they get older, to say, hey, it's okay to think this way. I love it.

Right. Well, thank you. I'm pretty excited about it.

Yeah. Marla, it's been great having you here.

Thank you so much, Brian D Smith. It's been an honor and Happy late Thanksgiving. Sounds like you had a good one.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Okay, you too. Bye. Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful and will come back for future episodes. Brian's best-selling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast, podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grieftogrowth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grieftogrowth. Patreon.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of Grief 2 Growth. For more about Brian and Grief 2 Growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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