My Daughter Predicted Her Own Death — And Never Stopped Talking to Me | Louise Crist | EP 477

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi, I'm Brian D Smith, and welcome to Grief 2 Growth. Whether this is your first time here, or you've been walking this path with me for a while, I'm truly glad you're here. This show is about making sense of life, especially when life doesn't make sense. We talk about grief, loss, and the questions that keep us up at night. Who are we? And where do we go when we die? And is it possible that people who we consider to be lost are actually closer than we think? I bring guests on to help illuminate this path, no matter how dark it feels. And my guest today is Louise Crist. Louise is a registered nurse with decades of experience at the bedside. She's a certified grief educator. She's an author. And she's a shining light parent like me, someone whose daughter is in spirit. Louise had her daughter Jillian, or Jilly, pass in the spirit several years ago. And what's unfolded since then has been one of the most remarkable stories of continued connection that I've ever heard. Jilly began predicting her death at the age of 4. She drew the scene of her fatal accident in detail, 2 years before she passed. And she didn't stop communicating when she passed. As a matter of fact, if anything, she got louder. In this episode, we're going to explore what it looks like when love refuses to be interrupted by what we call death. We'll talk about the moments when Jillian made herself unmistakably known to Louise, to her dad, to mediums, and even to strangers, and what that evidence means for all of us who are wondering about where our own children, our loved ones are, or whether they're still out there. We'll look at what all those decades of nursing taught Louise about the other side, long before she needed that knowledge for herself. And we'll talk about what it means to keep living and keep loving when the person you're loving is on the other side of the veil. This episode is for you if you've lost a child and you wondered if they're still here. But it's also for anyone who's found a penny or found a wet feather or heard a song at just the right moment and thought, was that you? Louise's answer, backed by story after story, is yes, it's absolutely gili. After the episode, I invite you to continue the conversation over at my Substack, grief2growth.substack.com. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.substack.com. There'll be an article about this, and you can talk with me and other listeners about the episode. So with that, let's get started. Let's welcome Louise.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's great to have you here, a fellow Shining Light parent. So for people that don't know what that is, We are parents whose children are no longer here physically, but our children are still with us here in spirit. So I'm really excited to get to know about you and about Jillie. So first of all, tell me about Jillie.

Jillie was born an old soul. She could— we had a mind meld thing even when I was pregnant with her. Sometimes you just do that. And she was always ahead of her time. Very, very smart, very intuitive. Didn't take much seriously, but very, very intuitive from a very young age. So she died when she was 19.

She was 19 when she passed. So I know that you said she was intuitive and she started saying things as early as age of 4.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We were playing dolls one day and she's, I said something about her future babies and she looked at me and said, I won't have babies. I won't live that long. Hmm.

Wow. Wow. And did this continue then? Because I know up until a couple years before she passed, she was still saying things like that. Is that right?

Yes. I took her to counseling and they said she doesn't seem to be upset by it.

Hmm.

So just roll with it and say, uh-huh, a lot. And but it got deeper and deeper as she got older. And then she told me exactly how her car accident was going to happen about a month before the before it did.

And it did.

It happened exactly that way.

So what did she tell you?

She's— we were driving down the road. I was driving and she was my passenger. And I did a U-turn and she grabbed my arm and said, Mom, this is how it's going to happen. And I said, what? She goes, the car accident I'm going to die in, it's going to happen on a turn. I'm going to get hit in the side. I hope my face isn't messed up. Will you take me to the Tanner when I'm dead?

Take her to where?

The Tanner.

The tanner. Okay.

Yeah, so she could have a tan in the casket.

Oh wow. Okay.

How do you respond to that?

Yeah, so when she said this, it sounds like it was pretty matter of fact. She, she wasn't upset about it at all, or all during this time?

Yep.

Okay. And, uh, I hate to ask you this, but tell me about her passing. It sounds like it happened pretty similar to what she said.

She was, uh, she had spent the night at a friend's house. And her and her, her, one of her best friends were driving Jillie's car because the best friend didn't, her car wasn't working right at that point. So the best friend was driving. They didn't get enough sleep. They had had 3 rum and Cokes the night before, but quit drinking at midnight. Got up at 6 or 5:45, got on the road and she was dead 5 minutes later. They, they missed a a stop sign that the road, uh, dog-legged, and they didn't know that in the dark. And they hit a tree. They had a gas main and then a tree. And she was hitting the side just like she said, broken neck and injury right here to her chin. Her face wasn't messed up. And the tanning place did call the funeral home wanting to know if they should bring the spray tanner because she had talked to them too.

She had talked to them?

Yeah, previously, before she died. And she told them, bring the spray tanner to the funeral home, I want a good tan.

Oh wow, okay.

How do you respond to that, right?

So what were your thoughts during this, this time, you know, all these years when she was saying these things?

Well, she just— I guess it was a heads up.

Yeah, but at the time, did you, did you believe her? Did you? Okay.

I mean, after, you know, you start saying, oh, don't talk like that, don't do that. But my father-in-law passed 9 weeks before she did, and she picked out her casket, said, that's the one I want, these the songs I want. Very matter of fact. And I went, okay.

While they were there at the funeral home with him? Okay. And what were your, what were your beliefs about the afterlife? Did you guys talk about that?

Or, I mean, all the time.

Okay, you did?

Yep.

Okay.

Because she was, she was able, uh, like after my father-in-law died, we— things started happening around the house that we couldn't explain. And she said, oh, that's just Papa talking from the other side, it's okay.

What kind of things are happening?

Oh, like, um, her CD would randomly change in the middle of a song and she'd say, Papa, put that back, and it would go back to where it was. And just, you know, things falling off tables and shelves. And he just knew, as his entire urn fell off of— just jumped off of her dresser onto the floor and didn't break.

Wow. Okay. So, so I, I'm just kind of flabbergasted by this because I can't— you know, my daughter Shayna made a couple of comments, um, when she was around the age of 10. I think she started saying things like she wasn't afraid to die And she talked about, um, she said she didn't want to grow up. And she was, she was 15 when she passed. Um, and even just a couple of weeks before she passed, she was playing with her cousins and, and my daughter Kayla and said something like, um, when I pass, I want to be, I want to be cremated and buried under a tree. And she was, she was 15 at the time. And they were like, Shayna, what are you talking— it was, and it was a random thing. It was like not part of the conversation. And we didn't know until after she had passed, and we were talking to Kayla about, you know, what we should do with her body, and she said, this is what Shayna said she wanted. So we had those indications, but nothing that's, that's specific. Um, did it upset you at all, or how you just— how did you take it?

Yeah, after years, you just kind of go, okay.

Yeah.

And then two nights before she died, she left both me and her dad notes on our dresser thanking us for being good parents. Teaching her about spirit and afterlife and praying and giving her a good house and all that. And she was the passenger in the car, not the driver, right? So yeah, and she, she wrote a note about a month before she died. We read it at her funeral. It was basically her eulogy.

Okay, so were you, um, or are you a religious family or spiritual or Very spiritual.

Um, I took my kids to every major religion growing up and kind of exposed them to all of it so that they could make better choices as adults as far as what resonated with them. They all chose Catholicism, which surprised me.

Interesting.

Um, but we went, and, uh, now it's much more— it's bigger than that. I think it's much more spiritual than that.

Yeah. So, um, After she passed and you, you had this understanding or this, this knowing, I guess, that she was going to pass, how did that play into your grief, grieving process?

Well, thank God I had a heads up. Um, my grieving process, as she— I got a call from the driver's mom on that morning and the girls aren't home, they should have been home, where are they? So I got in my car and started looking, and I called her friends that she was with, and they said, nope, they left at 5:45. It's now 7:30. It's a 25-minute trip. So they started looking from their end. I started looking from my end. And right after I got the call confirming about the accident and that she had died, I heard her as clear as day right here driving down the road saying, it's okay, Mom, I jumped. I didn't feel a thing. It was like watching one of those weird shows on TV where they just do really crazy stupid things and you go, wow, that's going to hurt. But it didn't. Hmm. I said, okay. She came to her dad in a tree stand. He doesn't, he's not quite as open spiritually as I am. And his hands started glowing.

Oh, wow.

He didn't know she was dead yet. He's like, what in the heck is going on? Why is my body doing this? And just almost like a— he said it was a very warm hug.

Okay.

It never happened before.

Yeah. And I've heard of something similar to that happening, and it sounds like she— I was going to say was— she is a very powerful spirit that was able to, to do these things, you know, um, immediately.

Oh, within, within seconds.

Yeah.

So we picked out her I had my daughter, my youngest daughter Sierra, pick out her outfit because I would have put her in something princessy and that's not who she was. And, um, so Sierra picked out her outfit. We had the necklace with a ring, um, that, uh, somebody with Alzheimer's that was very precious to her had given to her. And it was just a costume piece of jewelry and a little charm that said faith and her baptism cross. Had the necklace laid out with the clothes, went to go pack it all up to go to the funeral home and the ring was missing off the necklace. I was like, that's really weird. We looked everywhere for it, couldn't find it. This was 2 days after, 3 days after she died, went to the funeral home, had the bag still sitting on the table, and my husband sat down across the room and had a grief quake. And he goes, what is that over there under the table? Not where we were. It was the ring.

Oh, wow.

We hadn't been there yet.

Oh, okay.

Wow. I don't have an explanation for that.

Yeah, well, that's— I don't have an explanation for it, but I know it's called an apport when something physically moves from one location in our dimension to another location and dimension, which with no means of transport, right?

And she does that a lot.

She does. She still— she still does that?

Oh yeah, all the time. Okay, not just me, friends, family, sometimes multiple people in the same day. Or at the same time.

Wow. Well, I'm just, I'm just, I'm really blown away by this. But other thing I want to ask you about, because you mentioned she said she just jumped. And for parents whose children have passed, and almost every parent I've talked to has this, this almost nightmare about their last moments. Were they scared? Were they alone? Were they in pain? Explain to me what she meant by when she said, I just jumped.

She said her last memory, well, right before impact, she knew that she wasn't going to survive that. And she said our bodies are designed, when death is inevitable, to just snap out of them. The body continues to have that experience, but the soul doesn't have to experience the pain.

Yeah, yeah. I, I actually interviewed someone who mentioned something similar that she was young when she was in the accident also, and, and she said she found herself I think it was before the impact, out of her body, above the car, looking down. And she could choose whether she wanted to be in the body when it happened or to stay out, and she chose to stay out.

Yep. And her friend jumped as well. Oh, I came back and, and Jillie said, no, you, you— I have to go, you have to stay, and I'll help you.

Oh wow. Okay, so they, they met in an out-of-body In the in-between time, is that what you're saying?

That's what Jilly said, yes.

Okay, okay.

The driver doesn't remember the accident. She had a traumatic brain injury and some other things, so she doesn't remember it, thank goodness.

Okay, yeah.

Um, but there's never been any— there's only been love for her. Yeah, because she didn't get up that morning intending to have an accident that killed her best friend, right? But she carries that grief.

Yeah, of course. Yeah.

And that guilt.

Yeah. So remind me again, when did this happen?

November 19th, 2011.

Okay. All right. So just to get a time frame, time frame on that. And another thing that, that parents, uh, we, a lot of us really struggle with is, um, anger, you know, anger at, at the person. You know, she, you said your daughter was not the driver, that was someone else.

Yeah.

Um, how would you— how did you feel?

This was—

now, this was one of her really good friends too, so I would imagine that kind of complicates things. Did you have any anger at her?

I didn't, but other family members did, because the day before this happened, Julie and I were driving down to a doctor's appointment and we were behind a truck on the highway, and something told me to just get over one lane, and as soon as I did, something came flying off the truck that would have hit us and killed us. And Julie grabbed my arm, said, Mom, we could have died just then. She was dead less than 18 hours later anyway. I could have been that driver. Yeah.

Yeah. So I have to ask you this then. Um, we talk about soul planning and people wonder sometimes about like, do we have a time to go? What are your thoughts on that?

Absolutely. Absolutely. She came— she comes to me in dreams sometimes. And she, she told me that if it hadn't been that day, it would have been a day very close to that. There might have been more people involved, but it was her time to go. She had, she had thrown the pebble in the pond that needed to be there. And now the ripples were going to go out. And she could help more on the other side than she could on this side.

Okay, wow. Yeah, I know. Elizabeth Bassan, the founder of Helping Parents Heal, I think Morgan, her son came to her or came through a meeting one time and said something something similar. Like, he, he died at Mount Everest, and he's like, if it hadn't been there, it would have been— it doesn't matter. It didn't matter where I was, it was going to be around that time.

Yes. And that reframes grief.

Yeah, I think that completely reframes grief because we've talked about, you know, again, some of the most difficult emotions to deal with, with grief, are anger, um, guilt, uh, you know, the why. Why did this have to happen? And it sounds like, I mean, from your experience, at least a lot of those questions have been answered.

Well, chapter 2 in my book is the why. She gave me my answer.

Okay, tell me about that.

She showed me, and I've never forgotten any detail of this, she put me into a forest out in Oregon and showed me a beam of light coming down, and it was It was Jesus sitting in a rocking chair holding this little girl. And I walked up and I realized it was her, but I could not move. I had to just observe. And she basically said, hey, you know, heaven is fun, but I want to learn about forgiveness and I want to learn about love and I want to learn about patience. And God basically said, well, you have all those things already in heaven. So she said, I want to go to earth and learn it. So he said, all right. And they had this whole conversation about what she was going to learn and the lessons she was going to have and how each time she learned something, she was helping somebody else learn something and how it was bigger than just her.

Yeah. Yeah.

And what my role in that would be.

Okay. Wow. You know, you know, again, it's— I'm having this conversation with you. I think about all the issues that we go through. Again, the whys. The unfairness of it all, you know, a life, as we say, cut short at 19. Um, so there are no pat answers, and, and it's— people are still going to have questions.

Sure.

But, um, I think these answers can be very helpful to people to at least soften the edges. Yeah.

And if you look at the driver specifically, Are you aware of any support groups for people who accidentally caused someone's death?

I'm not, no.

Yeah. So they carry that grief and that shame and that weight.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Yeah, and to even have that thought or have that understanding as, as the mother of the daughter who passed shows, you know, a level that a lot of us really aspire to reach, because a lot of us struggle to, to forgive that person. And whether it's a the driver, or if our child's overdosed, it might be the drug dealer, it might be the doctor. That my daughter had a cardiologist, and, you know, I was like, why, why didn't he catch this? Why didn't he run this test? You know, you know, all those, all those types of things that we, we look for these, these answers because we're looking at it from a perspective where we don't really understand, right?

Right. But it's, it's, it's patterns. I mean, I— my experience with all the, the kids that have gone home before us and all the parents, those kids just, they have a special quality and I can't put my finger on it, but it's just different.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've talked to a lot of parents whose children, you know, have left before, before the age of 25, let's say, you know, just picking, picking a number.

Yeah.

And they do seem to live life at a faster pace. Um, they seem to be more connected, you know, to, to people around them. Um, and it— and there is this— yeah, I've noticed that with, with almost every parent I've talked to whose child has left early. So that's— it's like, um, I don't know, it may be, maybe more sense of urgency.

Yeah, like they knew they didn't have long, they better pack every minute of life into what they had.

Yeah.

And that's what we should all be doing.

Yeah, we should. We should all be doing that. But, you know, we live in denial of, of what's inevitable for all of us. And we think we're all going to grow old and, you know, and have our health. And we, we tend to take those things for granted. Um, but you, as you and I know, that's, you know, that's not guaranteed to, to anyone.

Yeah, child loss puts that in perspective in a hurry. Life is not guaranteed.

Yeah, absolutely.

And based on what I've learned, you know, on just my patients that we've resuscitated, that we've gotten back the other side, I have never ever had a patient that we resuscitated sit up and say thank you.

Thank you for bringing them back, you mean?

Yeah.

Okay.

Most of them are like, why did you do that? Do you know where I was? Don't ever do that again.

Yeah. So during your— I mean, you— we haven't even gotten to that. You had a lot— you had a long career as, as a nurse. And I think nurses, from my understanding anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, see death a lot more often than the doctors do. So, and, and I— my understanding also is the doctors tend to— they'll deny the afterlife for much, much longer, but nurses seem to really know and really get it. Is that true?

Yes. We have an intuition about us, you know, we know something's not right, but we have the ability to call the doctor and say, hey, get in here. I don't know what it is, but it's something. Get in here. And they usually listen.

Mm-hmm. So what kind of— what kind of— you mentioned a little bit, but what kind of things did you hear from people that you brought back?

Well, my favorite story was an Amish gentleman. That we got in in cardiac arrest. And I was on the code team, which is everybody that responds to that. And I was, I was kind of a support person in the background. But I looked up and I've always had the ability to see people when they leave their bodies. It looks like the vapors off of the gas grill a few moments after death. And I saw that on him. And I happened to look up in the corner and kind of saw what I recognized was him. And he was nodding and said yes, which means keep going, keep going, I'll come back. Hmm. Okay. So we got him back. He went to ICU. Next time I worked, he happened to be in the unit that I was working in. I stopped and said, hey, I'm glad you're doing good. I was on the team the other night. He said, oh, I remember you. You were down in the corner doing blah, blah, blah. And I go, oh, what else do you remember? And he goes, I went to heaven. And I said, you want to tell me about that? And I said, sure. So he said, I heard what sounded like a gunshot going off over here, and then I was sucked out of my body like a straw. And all of a sudden I was going down this long tunnel. At the end of this tunnel was a bright light, and Jesus was standing there. And I ran up to him, and I— he gives the best hugs. And he gave me a hug, and then he held me out at arm's length and said, you have to go back. And this gentleman said, why? I followed all the rules. I've been a good Amishman my whole life. What did I do wrong? And he said, I want you to go back and tell your people it's not about rules. It's about love.

Wow. Wow.

For that to come out of an Amishman is just not even on my radar, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

But every time that I saw him after that, and he lived probably another 6 or 7 years, same story. And he would just bawl telling me that story. He goes, heaven is not anything like you can imagine. And if that ever happens again, thanks, but no thanks. Don't bring me back.

Interesting. Yeah. So obviously you're very intuitive yourself, uh, and connected to this. And you mentioned seeing people as like vapors coming off a gas grill, so like a shimmering kind of in there.

Yes.

Okay.

But I've taught other people to see that too.

Okay, really?

Wow. Yeah, other nurses. You just have to be paying attention, and we don't because it's so busy and so chaotic. And but if you just kind of let your eyes relax and look at the chest about 3 to 5 minutes after they die, it just kind of looks like—

wow, okay. So, um, I, and I, I think I, I— it seems to me like some of this is like— I don't know if it's genetic or it's kind of passed along, this intuition, this ability. Um, has that been your experience, or have there been other people in your family as well?

Um, yes, both my daughters— all 3 of my daughters are Um, in fact, my oldest daughter speaks animals quite well. She's an animal whisperer.

Oh wow, okay.

And she's got some crazy amazing stories because she hears the people on the other side and they tell the animals, the animal tells her, and then she tells the family member.

Oh wow, okay, okay. So, um, you have, uh, you said how many daughters?

3.

3, okay. And so do you have any sons?

Nope.

Okay, because it's really interesting because it does seem to be more prominent in women to me.

Yeah.

Um, and I was curious because I don't know if you remember Marc Anthony, because both of his parents were, uh, natural-born mediums also. So it does kind of go through family sometimes.

Yes. And I think my grandmother probably was, but it wasn't talked about back then, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But you did also mention that you've you've taught other people, nurses, I assume, to see the same thing.

Yes. And I don't know how much of that is just nursing. We rely so much on our intuition and nonverbal cues.

Right.

And how much of that is a gift.

Yeah. Yeah. And the type of people that go into nursing, you know, they're going to be, they're going to be caring people and empathetic people and stuff like that. So.

Right.

It's probably some of, some of that as well.

Yes.

So, and you mentioned your husband is not quite as, as connected as you are, but he did have that experience. Has he had other experiences since then?

He was one of the ones that had so much anger for the driver that I had to, I had to physically hide her for the funeral because I was afraid other people would tear her apart because Jilly was very popular.

Yeah.

Um, but he was one of those that had anger and he just wanted that last hug. He wanted one last hug and doggone it, he was so ripped off. He didn't get that last hug. So about 3 months after she died, we were home and it was just he and I. We were both sleeping. I had this dream that she was going into a gymnasium and she looked over her shoulder and gave me her, her very particular cackle that let me know that she was up to something good.

Uh-huh.

That was the end of my dream. At the same time, my husband who worked night shift had come home. Was meditating. I didn't even know he knew how to meditate. And he was asking Jillie for that last hug. Okay. And he closed his eyes and somebody came in and sat down on the bed next to him and then laid down next to him. And his story has never changed, ever. He said his left half of his body changed like a half a degree. He felt the hug and then he felt her go. But that only happened the night before that we had had a gymnastic meet and they had honored Jillie and the driver had come. And Mark is the announcer. So during a lull, which never happens in meets, he went over and he put his arm around the driver and said, I forgive you.

Oh, wow.

And Jillie came the next morning.

Oh, wow. Wow. That's, that's powerful because I think I, I, I not think I know forgiveness can, can hold us back. From our— or not holding on to that anger can hold us back from, from being able to make that connection. And that is so powerful that, you know, that happened, you know, after he was able to do that.

Yes. And that changed his trajectory.

Yeah. Yeah. So, Jilly, um, obviously a force, you know, obviously, you know, someone who is here, was here to do great things. But you also mentioned earlier, like, something about, like, she felt like she could do more from the other side than she could do here. Explain that.

Um, she's the one that got me into the helping parents field. I had gone to a conference from Neale Donald Walsch, who wrote Conversations with God, and the conference was, um, Home with God and a Life That Never Ends. And he encouraged me to write the book, and he encouraged me to go to my first Helping Parents Heal conference, which I didn't know anything about.

Oh, wow. Okay.

And at that conference, I went with my sister, and I'd had a reading from one of the mediums that I didn't know. Her name was Nina. And during the reading, as a nurse, I also do Reiki and other things. This medium started having a headache, and I went around to work on her headache. And I kept hearing the name Jared, Jared. And it sounded like somebody was right outside of her hotel room door yelling, Jared! I'm like, do you know any Jareds? You know, should we answer the door? And she's like, what are you talking about? I said, you don't hear that? Nope, I don't hear that. 3 different times, no Jared. And I'm like, okay, whatever. Went down to lunch that day, our first conference. I'm standing in line. This blonde chick is behind me that I don't know from Adam. And I turn around and I hear, Jared. And I'm like, hmm. And she starts glowing. There's no reason she should be glowing. There's no skylights. And I'm like, all right, I'll bite. Hey, do you by chance know anybody named Jared? And she went, that's my son in spirit. How did you know that?

Hmm.

Oh, wow. And it turns out that Jillian and Jared had so much in common. That it led to healing for both of us. And that's what she does. She finds people who have a lot of things in common with us. You couldn't even try to have these things in common. And then somehow they cross my path.

Yeah. Yeah. So I know we talked about the sign of finding the ring at the funeral home. You've had other amazing signs from her.

Oh, a whole book full of signs. Yes.

Yeah. Well, give me another one of your favorites.

Oh, my favorites. Clean, clean or PG?

Either one. This is a podcast. You can say whatever you like.

Well, let's see. I'll give you a clean one. My husband, to deal with his grief, decided he's a gardener. I can't garden. I can kill a plant just looking at it. So he went out and dug this very large area in a part of the yard that we had never done anything with. No animals buried there, no nothing. Just under a walnut tree in the corner. Okay. So he goes out and he digs. He's— it was about a foot deep. He gets to this gigantic walnut tree root and he can't get it out. So he gets out the Sawzall, cuts off this root, digging underneath, getting all the rocks and pebbles, comes up with what he thinks might be a button because this house is an 1860 house. Um, comes in, rinses it off, and it's a 2009 Virgin Island quarter.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Which is significant. 2009. I mean, how would that get a foot under a tree root?

Right.

Um, the Virgin Island quarter had a palm tree, a beach, a seagull, and you could tell it was a beach scene. Mm-hmm. Jillie wore Hollister clothing all the time. Seagulls were her thing. Her favorite, favorite thing to do as soon as the weather in Michigan hit 30 degrees was put on her bathing suit, go out on the roof, and suntan.

Wow. Now, the Virgin Islands, of course, that— for people that may not remember, we had those quarters back in the day that we had quarters for each state. I didn't realize there was one for the Virgin Islands, but I didn't know that they had their own quarter.

I didn't either. Yeah, that was a very appropriate one for her.

Yeah, that is wild. That, that is, that is really wild. So, um, yeah, I don't even know where to begin to explain that. And it's, and it's really interesting because, um, again, we talked about earlier the apports, and that is a— I know there are physical mediums that do stuff like that, um, but, you know, I find, I find dimes, you know, for me it's dimes. And like the other day I came in the kitchen and there was a dime laying on our kitchen counter, which is, you know, that's not really a miracle. But my wife and I hardly ever use change. I hardly ever use cash.

Yeah.

And, and I asked her and she said, no, I didn't have any. It's like, but it's laying there. And yeah, you know, we find stuff like that, but find— this is like, okay, I'm not just gonna put it on the counter, I'm going to put it underground.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm going to put something in a place where we haven't even been before.

Right. And the seagull, I mean We played Freebird at her funeral. That's her theme song is Freebird.

Oh, really?

So it was very appropriate.

Yeah.

And at her funeral, people kept walking up and handing me quarters. Did you drop this? Did you drop this? And I'm like, I'm wearing a dress. I don't have pockets.

Yeah.

Yeah. Probably $5 to $7 worth of quarters in her casket with her.

Oh, wow. Wow. Okay.

I'm like, want them over there? I don't know. I couldn't figure out the whole quarter thing. Why quarters? Why not dimes or nickels or whatever? And then she showed me in a dream one night. She goes, remember when I was little, you made me memorize our address and our phone number, and you put a quarter in my pocket whenever I went somewhere so I could call home?

Oh man. Okay.

Yeah, she's calling home.

That is wild. Yeah. You know, it's funny because when— after Shayna passed, I was like, you know, people say finding, uh, or finding coins is a sign. And so I was like, I said to Shayna, I said, I want it to be dimes. Um, because, you know, pennies you find all over the place. I'm like, so I just, I just chose dimes. And I mean, not that I don't find other coins, but when I find a coin, it's almost always a dime.

Yes, yes. So I can't explain, it's one of those no other explanations, but they're always in really weird places. Like my brother vacuumed his entire room, came back, and there's one middle of floor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Another friend found one in the— in a pair of boys' underwear in the fly wrapped around a drain tube under the sink.

Oh, okay, okay.

Is that where you store quarters? I'm not a guy, but I'm— yeah, you know.

Yeah, that is, that is great. That's crazy. So, um, in the time, you know, since she's passed, you know, she's, she's gotten you into Helping Parents Heal. And if I remember correctly, you recently you retired from nursing?

I did. Yes, I did. Which was very trippy.

Yeah.

I'm getting used to that. That might be another book.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So do you, do you have plans for what you want to do in this next phase?

I think another book is going to happen. I'm already starting to— I've got a lot of information for another book. I mean, Jillie's It didn't stop after book 1. There's book 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. I mean, I could just keep writing. Yeah. But part of it is a new— ministry may not be the right word, but I can't think of a better word— is to just volunteer this year, spend my time, talent, giving, giving back and seeing what happens. And I know she'll guide me.

Yeah, I think ministry is an appropriate word from the original meaning of ministry. Because to minister to someone is to serve. So we think of it in a religious term, but I, I believe it is a ministry to, to do that. And, and she's given you so much to, to work with. And as I said, when you, you and I spoke a little bit earlier, I said I have to have you on the podcast because every question that parents ask me after they've lost a child you know, you can, you can answer it. And again, it doesn't take all these things away, but it can add, it can add some meaning to it, can add some context to it, it can add some relief. Because again, I've talked to so many parents, like, you know, did they suffer? Did they, did they experience pain? And, and I've talked to enough people who've had near-death experiences and people have been through this where I'm like, no. Even when, even when you see someone suffering in their body, suffering in the hospital, for example, they don't remember it. They're, they're gone. They're, they're not, they're not there. And my, my mother-in-law had dementia, and so did my father-in-law. And I, I'm convinced that their spirits were— I mean, I'm not saying they were gone, but they were back and forth. It was like sometimes they were here, sometimes they were there.

My mom was that way. I woke up one night, my mom was standing next to my bed, and I went, what are you doing here? I called the nursing home. Hey, can you go? Oh no, she's fine, she's sound asleep.

Oh wow. Okay, so she was there in spirit next to you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And unfortunately, my father-in-law went through it. It was before I knew all this stuff, so he would say things like, I saw, you know, so-and-so the other night, or I saw this person, and we knew he hadn't. And it wasn't until years later I put together every person he said he saw was dead.

Yes.

He never said he saw someone who was alive.

No, they were all coming to get him. Yeah. And I wish as nurses— for, for if you're a healthcare professional, it's kind of beaten into you that death is failure.

Absolutely.

Death is not failure. We're all going to die.

Yeah.

Just like we were all born. I want to do that a little more gracefully.

Yeah. No, I think that's— that is, that is a really good point, you know. And I understand it, the medical profession. I mean, that's your job. Your job is to keep people in their bodies. But on the other hand, you know, it's, it's— we do have a time to go. And I've talked to enough people, and I'm to the point now where I don't view it as a tragedy because a person happens to go when they're young, because that's— that was their time.

Yes. And what if whatever happened to your daughter was a building block so it doesn't happen to anyone else?

Yeah.

Or what if they learned something that they didn't know out of that.

Yeah, yeah, there's— yeah, because it was interesting because, um, she did have— we knew she had a diagnosed heart condition which was very mild, and they weren't even— she wasn't even on medication or anything. They were just like, come back every couple years, we'll take a look at it. And then after she passed, you know, the coroner calls and said, well, she had a structural defect that was congenital.

Yeah.

And, and she said, I think that's what caused her passing. And the cardiologist disagreed. So people ask me, I'm like, I'm like, I don't know. But they did want to take her heart and study it, you know, at Children's Hospital. I don't know whatever happened with that. But again, I don't view it as a tragedy anyway. You know, it's— we all, we all have a time to come in, we all have a time to go out. And I think from the other side, people aren't going, oh, I only got to be there, you know, 19 years, or I got to be there 15 years. I don't, I don't think that's a regret.

No, no, she just packed a lot into it. Yeah, didn't waste any time with fluff because there was no time for fluff.

Yeah, and that's the thing, I thought about it after Shayna passed, you know, and I was talking to someone about this the other day. It's— I could say, well, I only had 15 years with her, but I could also say we had a great 15 years, you know. We homeschooled my daughter, we got to spend a lot of time together, I was working from home. So we packed more in those 15 years than a lot of people pack in into a lifetime. So it's not the quantity of life, it's the quality of your life.

And looking back, I'm so glad we homeschooled.

Oh, did you?

All that extra time I didn't get to have, or I wouldn't have had.

Wow, you did. Okay, that's why.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, you know, and that's the other thing is, you know, I can just tell from talking to you, your connection with her was and is a very special connection.

Yes.

And a lot of people, they don't, they don't have that. They don't have that, that real soul connection that you, that you have.

I have, um, one of my, my roles in being an affiliate leader is reaching out to newbies, whether their death happened last week or 15 years ago, and just kind of checking in on them and sharing ways to maybe hear from your child. So what I recommended to one who had put her child's picture in the drawer 15 years, 14 years ago and never took it out because she didn't know anybody that lost a child. And that's what you're supposed to do, right? Because you just put it away and you don't talk about it.

Yeah.

And I said, Farrah Gibson came up with this and I passed it on to her. Just, you know, close your eyes, pretend like you're taking, you're unzipping your earth suit, put it over there in a pile. Go to the edge of a— in my mind it was the Grand Canyon— and yell, "Hey, Chilli, I love you." And then what do you hear back?

Yeah.

And she tried it the first time, nothing happened. The second time she tried it, she goes, "I heard his voice for the first time in 14 years." Hmm. And from there it just took off. His picture is back out. She's talking to it all the time. But Jillie and her son have so many similarities. Again, she found me another person that— oh yeah, I mean, right down to our grandparents' names are the same. Her husband and my stepdad had the same business. I mean, it's just— her initials are the same as my mom's.

Wow.

Yeah, just stuff like that.

Yeah. Well, we, you know, at Helping Parents Heal, we, uh, we, we believe a lot of times our children are the ones that bring us together. So we'll go to the conferences, and we'll meet people. And we do seem to meet people that we have things in common with. And, you know, the synchronicities and the things that line up, that when we, when we listen, and that's the thing is learning how to listen. I, I talked to so many people who say, well, I talked to them, but you know, they don't, they don't talk back to me. And I'm like, you have to learn how to hear. It's like learning a different language.

Yes, and it's a quiet language.

Yeah, explain that because I don't think people were gonna understand what that means.

You, you can't hear it when you're— when your head is full of noise. Yeah, like I get my best, uh, communication from her in the shower, nice and quiet. That's— I literally kind of download. Yeah, that I get from her, or when I'm sleeping. But if I'm full of noise and stress and all that, it's harder here.

Yeah, I think for explaining that, because I think we are— our heads are so full of thoughts all the time and worries, etc., that we can't get quiet. And it is, it is more of a whisper than it is a shout.

Yes.

And you've got, you've got to learn to get quiet. And you have to learn to trust it. That's the other thing that I've come to learn. It's like, it'll come across as maybe your imagination.

And it's really easy to rationalize away until a car pulls out in front of you with a license plate that says J. Christ on it in another state. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's quiet, but if you're not looking, you're not seeing it.

Yeah, well, that's the thing also, you have to, you have to be looking. And it reminds me of one of my stories with Shayna. It was, uh, it was 5 years after she had passed to the day, and I was taking her mother to, uh, therapy. She'd had knee surgery, and I was taking her to therapy, and they were, you know, it was a 5-year anniversary, so I was like, you know, not in a great mood or anything. And I kind of zoned out. My wife goes, look at that. And I looked up, and in front of us, there was the car— a truck in front of us had stenciled on the back, I'm right here.

Yes.

I'm like, yes. Yeah. But I would have, I would have completely missed it if my wife hadn't pointed it out.

Yep. Or that billboard, or that next song on the radio, or, oh, I was just thinking that, and Freebird came on.

Or— yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, it reminds me another one. I was— Freebird, because my, my friends, uh, son's song is Sweet Home Alabama. And we were in Sedona at the Helping— we were at the Helping Parents Heal conference. We'd gone up to Sedona and we're standing in the store in Sedona, and then she mentioned her son's name and Sweet Home Alabama starts playing on like the Muzak. And I'm like, that's not a song you hear a lot of times in a spiritual shop in Arizona, in Sedona, Arizona. Well, mine is—

Julie wrote a college paper on the song If I Die Young by, I think it's the band Perry maybe or something. I wrote a whole college paper about that. Yeah, I go into Menards and I'm looking at the decorations going, which one should I put on her grave? And I'll be darned if that song doesn't come on.

Wow.

Yeah, it's from 2009, 10, 5, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

And why would, why would you play that song at Menards?

Yeah, yeah.

And power tools shouldn't go together.

Yeah, exactly. And, and it's— I love sharing these stories because again, it's so easy to overlook these things if you're not looking. So when people tell me, I don't get signs, they're not communicating with me, I'm like, I just imagine our loved ones on the other side going, look, I sent you this, I sent you this, you're not paying attention.

I'm trying so hard. I went to, um, when I first started some of my, uh, holistic work, I was doing craniosacral therapy and somatoemotional release. And I, after my dad died, I had looked for 15 years. Never thought I got a sign. Never thought I got a sign because I wanted a specific sign. I wanted him to send me an Eeyore.

Oh, okay.

I went to John Edward. John Edward comes out and he goes, Christopher Robin, Tigger, Pooh. I never took that as a sign.

Oh, wow.

You know, the people around me.

Okay.

I finally got on the table once and went into this very relaxed state, and my dad came in, and I said, where have you been? And he goes, you've been so busy looking for that damn Eeyore, you haven't seen the thousands of signs that I have sent you.

Oh, wow. Wow.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. So, Louise, I'm curious. I mean, you, you obviously have this connection, this intuition. Do you do, do you do mediumship?

I've been told I have that capability, but I'm— I'm right now, I am, um, understudying with somebody. Okay, just exploring it. I don't know what's medium and what's just nurse's intuition. Yeah, but I have a tendency when I put my hands on people through all the other work that I've done to see images that I guess other people don't see. I just thought other nurses did. That's what we do.

Oh, okay.

But I found out that that's not really the case.

Yeah, I, I was interested. I know a lot of people go from massage therapy to becoming mediums because that touching people and that, in that kind of a setting, things start, you know, things start coming through.

They do, they do. And Julie did that too. I mean, she would just put her hands on, you know, it wasn't necessarily a healing, but that warmth of your hand feels good. And if you're putting that energy behind it and that love behind it It works for little kids. Kiss that boo-boo, it goes away.

Yeah, well, you know, and it's interesting because again, I have a lot of friends who are mediums, and they, they will differentiate between psychic ability and mediumship ability, and they'll have big debates about whether someone's working psychically or through mediumship. From as a layperson, I frankly don't care.

It's like, I don't care.

Yeah, it's, it's— you're, you're reading energy, you're reading spirit, you know. Whatever. And I know not everybody's meant to be, you know, medium as far as working for other people. But clearly, you have that, that connection, which is— but it also has enabled you to be able to share these fantastic stories and to work with people and helping parents heal. And, you know, as an affiliate leader, for people who don't know what that is, there's a group of people that, that come into the organization, and you kind of help, you know, help them get acclimated.

Peer to peer. And I'm going in, I knew before he— Julie even died, I knew probably 40 families that had lost kids. And I thought, well, that's kind of a disproportionate number. It must be because I'm a nurse.

Yeah, yeah.

No, it wasn't.

Yeah, you're right. And the thing is, we get— we can, as we start to open up this and look and look at it, we can start to see the patterns in our life, you know. Um, you know, we look at things and it might feel very random.

Yeah.

And again, we ask those questions, why, you know, why? And we, we scream those questions, you know, at the universe, which is fine. But I love that, that exercise, you know, you talked about like going out and standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon. So go ask that question, but then listen, but listen for the answer.

Yeah, yeah. And it might take 2 or 3 times, and it's such a quiet little whisper. But when you hear it, it's your child's voice.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know how else to describe that.

So I know we talked, we touched on a little bit about your book, but tell people more about your book.

My book is, um, I wrote it over the 7-year period, and it was kind of my journey into grief. The first chapter is that day, because every story has to start somewhere. I tell people who've lost kids, avoid that if you don't want to read it. Yeah. The second chapter was my why.

Hmm.

The third chapter was the ring showing up at the funeral home and the things that really started happening within 72 hours of her death. And the rest of it is just kind of a back and forth between I can't get out of bed today to I am so joyous and so full because I got this. Or I figured out that love is— grief is love with nowhere to go. So today is Jillian's birthday. She would be 34. I can't give her a present. So instead, because she wanted to be a neonatal nurse, what I do is make little baby gift baskets and take them down to our local NICU, and her birthday 20s get to have a random present from a stranger.

Yeah. Well, by the way, yeah, thanks for mentioning that because today we are recording this on her birthday. So happy birthday to Jillian. Jillian, and thank you for, thank you for doing this today. And, you know, the thing is, when we say things like, I can't give her a birthday present, not a physical present, but we can get something that's actually more, more important, right? Um, that's actually more heartfelt. And, and having that, that connection, um, I see you guys giving each other presents back and forth. And I know she's, I know she's right here, and I know she's very, you know, proud of what you're doing and how you're taking this and you're, you're paying it forward, you know, you're helping other people go through this thing, which, you know, none of us would, um, none of us would choose, you know, intentionally or, uh, consciously. I'm really intrigued by the name of your book, Always Remember to Kiss Me Goodnight. Where did that come from?

That sign right there.

Oh, you, your background's blurred, so sorry, it's blurred out.

She— I have a sign above my bed, um, that says, "Always kiss me goodnight." Oh, okay. And that was her first sign.

Oh.

So when I started the book, I didn't know what to call it, and I kept looking up at that, and she kept saying, "That's it, that's it." Well, I just added, "Always remember to kiss me goodnight." And then when I— we came time for the COVID of the book, my editor wanted to a tree at sunset. I don't know why she wanted that, but she did. So I sent her gazillions of pictures of trees at sunset because I'm a photographer. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. One day at work, I'm walking down the hospital corridor and they had a student artwork up and there's a picture of a tree at sunset. And I went, "Jillie drew one of those. It's in my living room framed." And I took a picture of it and sent it to the author. She goes, "This is the exact picture I want." Oh, wow. Jillie literally drew the COVID of the book.

Wow, wow. Yeah, I, you know, I love, I love all the connections. I love the fact that you're open to it. You know, it's funny because I— the reason I asked you about that is the night that Shayna passed away, I— she— we were watching TV in the family room and we were just like saying it's time to go to bed, which she never wanted to, but it was time to go to bed. So she went upstairs and she was in, in the bathroom when I was going to bed, and I did not kiss her good night that night. I, I just said through the door, you know, I love you. And I didn't kiss her goodnight that night. But it was really interesting because I felt, you know, a little bit of guilt about that after a while. But I remember when I would say to Shannon— because I, I told her I loved her a lot, and her mother did too— and she'd say, you don't have to tell me you love me all the time, I already know it.

But I, I need to say it.

Yeah, yeah. But, um, yeah, it's, you know, again, people sometimes have guilt around those, those last you know, those last moments, or again, thinking about the last moments of our daughter, our children. And I know that they want us to remember the totality of their lives and also to keep in mind that that's not the totality of their lives. That's just the part when they were here.

That's one minute of their entire life. Yeah. We want to define them in that one minute.

Yeah.

Uh-uh. Julie was way more than that. Way more than death.

Yeah, exactly. And still is. You know, and like I said, you know, still is because, you know, it took me a long time to come to this realization because, like, again, I could think of Shane as like she only was here for 15 years. She was only here for 15 years, but she's still active, and just as Julie is still active. Yeah, yeah.

And you know what did I do with that situation? Okay, let's put it into use. Let's get that gas main taken out so it's not 56 inches off the road, you know. Let's get rumble strips on a road that doesn't clearly dogleg in the dark, you can't see it. Let's get a light up above so they can see that intersection. Those are things that I've done.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I can't buy my grandchildren from her any presents because there aren't any.

Right.

Why can't I buy them for a stranger? That's good. That gift is going to find exactly the right person. I did it one year, took it out to an Amish birthing center. And this family came in and they were just sure it was a girl. So all they had was dresses. It was a boy. And, you know, here comes this basket with exactly everything they need for the first month.

Yeah. Yeah. And that's— and that's finding, you know, something to do with the— with the grief, to do with the loss. Yeah. With the love. And, you know, I hear— and I think you said earlier, grief is love with no place to go. Um, but the more I, I do this work, the more I get into this, like, there is some place for the love to go, right? So that, that is when we have that, that deep, intense grief, is when we don't think we have anywhere to put our love, when we don't realize that we can still have this continuing relationship. It's not over.

Yes. And everything I do in Jilly's honor honors Jilly.

Yeah.

And honors our connection and our love and feels as physically to me like a hug as I can get from the other side. Yeah, yeah, I'll take it.

Yes. Yeah, I, I completely agree with that. And yeah, we still miss— I still miss, you know, my daughter here physically. That's, that's not going to change. And, uh, I understand the people that still— I mean, we still want that. We are biological beings.

Absolutely.

But we can also— we can have a different type of thing, like you said, a different way of learning, a different relationship And I thank you, Louise, for helping people to understand about how we can, how we can make that shift and how we can, and we can learn, you know, like you said, you've taught nurses how to, how to see energy, I'm going to call it, you know, see the spirit leaving the body. And, you know, we can, we can learn this, this language, this new way of speaking, or actually, I guess I should say an old way of speaking. I think we come in knowing this. And, you know, your daughter at 4, having that premonition, A lot of times kids, they lose that. So they'll say things like that when they're young, and then they'll stop because the parents will shut it down. Don't think like that. Don't talk like that. That's, that's just silly. It's fantasy. And we eventually, we internalize that and we lose the connection.

And when you're— you know this— that, that desperation right after they die, and that, oh my gosh, I'm never going to see them again, I'm never going to be able to touch them or feel them or anything, and that just panic. Yes, it can't be over. I'm not ready.

Yes, yes, that is— that I love that. Thank you. That's such an important point because it breaks my heart when I hear someone say, I'm never going to see them again. Um, and like, that's not— that's not true.

You can imagine.

Yeah, and, and you will see them again. Maybe not with your physical eyes, not about these eyes, but you will see them again. And not only that, even more so, you can still communicate with them now.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And they will answer you. It's a— it's kind of a one-sided conversation because they answer quietly, but it's there.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. And so, yeah. So thank you for doing what you do. Thank you. Remind people of the name of the book and where they can get it.

It's on Amazon. And again, Always Remember to Kiss Me Goodnight. And all the proceeds from all the profits from the book fund the scholarships that we give out to future healthcare professionals in Jillie's honor. And to date, we've given out 115 scholarships. Our very first one has taken care— she became a nurse and has taken care of 3 members of our family, so it was a good investment.

Oh, wow.

And we, um, we repeat them so even college seniors can get one because you don't really get funding as a college senior. But if they pick something and, you know, we'll fund them every year. As long as they give me another application. But one of my favorite parts with that that's different is they have to write a personal statement that tells me who they think they are. And then my request is they have to write me a one-page essay on who is your hero and why. And that tells me what they value. And then unbeknownst to the kids, spoiler alert here, we take the hero alert or we take the hero letter and mail it to the hero.

Oh wow, wow.

Because if you're someone's hero, you should know that, because you might not have think you've ever done anything important in your life, and look how you affected this kid.

Yeah, well, I love the way that you're affecting the world, um, and, and, and the, the light that you're putting in the world, um, that Jilly's putting in the world through you. I think I said we, we are God's, uh, hands and feet. We are loved ones' hands and feet. We, we can We can carry their, their support. They can't do physically things in this world anymore, but we can do them for them. I want to say happy birthday to Jillie, and I'm really honored to have you here today.

Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

Yeah, it's great to see you. Have a good afternoon.

Thanks.

Grief doesn't follow stages, timelines, or rules. And if you've ever wondered, am I doing this right? You're not alone. That's why I created the grief check-in. It's not a test. There are no right or wrong answers. It's simply a gentle way to understand how grief may be showing up for you right now. In just a few minutes, you'll gain clarity and language for what you're experiencing without judgment, labels, or pressure to move on. If you're wondering where you are in grief, this is a safe place to look. Go to grief2growth.com/check-in. That's grief numeral 2 growth.com/check-in. /CheckIn. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. www.grief-the-number-2-growth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.