My Grief Is Not Like Yours: Theo Boyd on Layered Loss, Divine Signs & Radical Hope | EP 462

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Welcome to Grief 2 Growth. I'm your host, Brian D Smith. And whether you're a first-time listener, you've been with me for a while, I'm so glad you're here. The show is all about helping you navigate the storms of life, ask the big questions— who we are, why we're here, where we came from, and where we're going— but most of all, to find hope even in the midst of loss. Today's guest has lived through the unimaginable and emerged with a message of healing resilience, and of deep unwavering hope. I'm honored to be joined by Theo Boyd, award-winning author, grief educator, and podcaster. You may know her from her raw and powerful memoir, My Grief Is Not Like Yours. And now she's back with a brand new book, Hope All the Way: Discovering Divine Signs in Life After Loss. In 2019, Theo's life was changed forever when a tragic accident on her family farm claimed her mother's life. Just weeks before her parents' 50th wedding anniversary. And shortly after, grief took another devastating turn when her father passed by suicide. And if that wasn't enough, her marriage also fell apart during this time, leaving her to rebuild her life in the wake of overwhelming loss. Thea's new book is releasing December 2nd. We're recording this on November 20th, 2025. It's more than a memoir. It's a guide to navigating grief, rediscovering purpose, and learning to trust that hope is still possible. All the things we talked about here on Grief 2 Growth. In today's episode, we'll explore the personal journey that inspired her to write the second book. And we'll dive into insights from the National Grief Study that she conducted with the Center for Generational Kinetics. We'll talk about why grief looks so different for everyone, how to recognize divine signs that may be guiding us, and how journaling and professional help can support the healing process. We'll also touch on how to survive the holiday season while grieving, and how to support those that we love who are hurting. So whether you're grieving the loss of a parent, a partner, a marriage, or just trying to understand what hope looks like after loss, this conversation is for you. And when you're done listening, I invite you to head over to my Substack at grieftogrowth.substack.com. There you'll find an article about today's episode, where we can continue the conversation together.. I love to hear your thoughts. And you can interact with me and others in the Grief 2 Growth community. So with that, I'd like to welcome Theo Boyd.

Hi, thank you.

It's good to have you here, Theo. Your story— and I talked to a lot of people that have been through lots of tragedies. Your story is filled with unimaginable tragedy, the loss of both your parents, the end of your marriage. So how did you pick up the pieces and start moving your way forward?

Wow. How long do we have?

We've got quite a while. So, yeah, take your time.

Well, you know, a lot of people, especially with the second book coming out on hope, they're like, how have you been hopeful this whole time? And I'm like, hello, I've not been hopeful this whole time. But it kind of creeped in on me. It's just been a really crazy journey. When it first started in 2019, when I got the phone call, you know, I was just a schoolteacher. I was home for the summer. And I got a phone call that there'd been an accident on the family farm. And when I got there, I learned what had happened, and I couldn't even— I couldn't even fathom it. And I was hearing my dad in the ambulance, and he was inconsolable, of course. And from that moment, my life completely changed. But it wasn't in those early moments that I really knew what was going to be going on the next few years. You know, you have to get through that early onset, that fresh grief. So I always tell people, a fresh griever is not going to feel hopeful. You can just forget about that, because grief is just like that black paint that I talk about in My Grief Is Not Like Yours. The black paint that coats you and covers you and takes a while for that to dry and chip, chip away so that you see the rays of light come through. Those are the little specks of hope that are coming through.

Wow.

But It's very hard to be in fresh grief and to see any form of light, and that's where I was. And I was just writing how I was feeling, and a lot of those first feelings are in that first book. But all along the way, there's been signs, there's been things that brought me back on the path. You know, I'd get off in a ditch, and then here something would happen and bring me right back in. And so I started recording those on, uh, restaurant napkins and my phone, and I was like, there's all these things happening. And I know that it's God, my mom and dad, all bringing me back to the path that God's intended for me this whole time. And I use this a lot, but I think it was Mark Twain that said, the two most important days in your life: the day that you were born and the day you know why you were born. And I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I was born to write that first book, that grief book. I'd never written a book before. I was a creative writing teacher, an English teacher, but I'd never written a book. And I never thought I was going to ever write a book, especially on grief. So it's crazy where your life will take you. I was 47 years old, high school English teacher, and now I'm out helping who I once was. And that, that's beautiful to me, that I'm able to carry on the story of my parents, their beautiful love story, and the wonderful testimony and ministry they had in our community, and keep that going, keep that legacy going to help other people. And my parents are still helping people even in their death.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I, and I like what you said, and it's really important that we understand, that people that are listening understand, we don't go from that tragic accident to writing a book called Hope All the Way. There's a, there's a lot of steps in between there. So your mother passed in an accident on the farm, and your father survived that. And then did— how was he after your mother passed? I know he eventually ended up succumbing to to suicide. He—

I told everybody at Mama's visitation at the funeral home that night, I said, I lost Daddy in that accident too.

Wow.

I, um, um, he also had a little bit of dementia. It wasn't much, but when the accident happened, the doctors said that it catapulted him like 6 to 8 years in his dementia. It just— that form of stress, the body just can't handle. And Daddy was, over the next 3 years, he was on and off his, his funny, trying to be funny self. He was always a comedian, and he, he was just such a charismatic individual. He is a great preacher, and he wrote poetry and short stories and beautiful sermons, and he preached so many funerals and married so many people in our area, and everybody knew him. And he, you know, after 2019 and Mama's accident, then COVID came So that was an isolation that really, I feel like, was just— oh, it just really was a horrible time for a lot of elderly people, but especially my dad, because he was just— he craved to be around people and to just— he was always a people person. But then to be isolated and not really understanding what was going on, because he was like, "I don't understand COVID," and he didn't understand why people couldn't come around. And so that was a really hard time. And then, you know, a couple of years after that, I kind of dropped my guard a little bit. The first few weeks after Mama's accident, we were all on guard. We got all the guns out of the house. We were, you know, we— he had told the sheriff the night of the accident that he was going to take his life, but he did not do it because he didn't want my sister and I to wonder what happened out there. And he lasted 3 years longer than I thought he would. But I had dropped my guard. I didn't know about certain guns that were still in the home. And then on Father's Day morning, 2022, I went in to check on him and he had taken his life with a firearm.

Oh, wow. I'm so sorry. Yeah, my wife grew up in Kentucky, so I understand the guns. And my father-in-law had guns all over the place and ended up with dementia. We had to take the guns away and get him out of the house. But after we took him out of the house, we found out he had guns in other places that we didn't know about.

Isn't that crazy? They think they're pulling one over on us, and they are.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I know also your, your marriage fell apart after, after this. So what, what happened with that?

You know, grief is a great filter. It, it will bring everything to the surface. So if anything was wrong before and you thought you had it handled, grief's going to bring all that right up.

Yeah.

And You know, we had had a few problems, not much in the past, but grief does some crazy things in a marriage. And I found out that he had been unfaithful during the grief when I was staying with my dad. And, you know, everybody grieves in their own way, right? So I, um, we had to start going to counseling, and then that didn't work, and it was just like that pattern kept continuing. So I— we finally decided we were going to get a divorce. So I had to go through that loss and that grief and explaining that to my dad and not wanting to hurt him anymore. And it's just like, it was just a compounding loss after loss. And my counselor died suddenly in February of 2020. So Mama died July of 2019, and then in February 2020, my counselor suddenly died.

Wow.

And I've been going to her for 18 years. And just, you know, we tell everybody to exercise your body, but we, we need to be exercising this. So I had went to her for just minor life things, you know, blended marriage, raising a teenage daughter, but never anything of this magnitude until I called that night of the accident, and I talked to her, and she— I was worried about my dad because he's a minister, but he's saying all these words that I'd never heard him say.

Yeah.

And didn't even know he knew them. And she just said, let him say the words that he needs to say. Those are the words that carry the weight of his pain. And I'll never forget that. And I talk about it in that first book, that we need to, as a society, be a little easier on grievers that are actually grieving and showing their emotion and showing— that's what they're doing is the only way that they— their body knows how to handle it.

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. We sometimes want to shut down people's emotions thinking, well, don't say those things, and, you know, but those emotions need to be expressed, they need to come out. And as long as they're expressing them, that's, that's actually a good thing, right?

I'm so glad she gave me that advice on that night because otherwise I would have went in there and said, you need to stop, you know. But I didn't, I didn't silence him. Which was hard on anybody that was in the house. Very hard night. I never want to relive that night ever again. It was just a night of misery and just shock, complete shock. But now I don't remember what your original question was.

Well, we were talking about the fact about these things compounding on top of each other, and you mentioned—

Yes, my marriage.

Yeah, your counselor passing during this time. For people that have been through multiple losses, they might have a little bit of feeling, but explain what that feels like, that cascading grief, compounded grief. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yes, it was, um, rapid-fire loss. Yeah, you know, I lost Mama and then my counselor, and then I, you know, then— and the wall is going up. I'm building this pretty strong wall with all these losses to protect myself, and I'm not grieving. I, I've delayed my grief because I didn't want my dad to hurt anymore by watching me grieve. So, so I would just kind of put it away. I'll deal with it later. And I was actually actually jealous of people that were getting to grieve because I didn't have that luxury. I was staying with my dad, making sure he's going to be okay. Got to go back to teaching school soon. And I had a student— or I had a teacher— a, a— gosh, I just drew a blank. What's that? Substitute teacher taking over my classes, okay, for about 6 weeks. And I had family leave from the school that I was teaching at, but I knew eventually I was going to need to get back to that. But you know, I was putting it all on hold. And then the counselor dies. And of course, I had to walk out of the classroom when I learned that during class. I just was in shock. And then my marriage is falling apart that summer of 2020. And then we try to get into counseling. And then in '21— those years are all very fuzzy to me. But what's not fuzzy is the journaling. I was journaling it all. I was writing it all down. And one of my schoolteacher friends, when I got back to the classroom, she walked by and had read just a little bit. She said, "I hope it's okay, but Theo, you have to write a grief book." And that was the seed that got planted. And then I just started watering it and nourish— nourishing it and nurturing it. And then a book came, and May 9th, 2023, it was released. And I never dreamed that it would help as many people as it has. And never, never in my wildest dreams did I think my healing, which was writing, was going to help somebody else. That just never even crossed my mind. And I think that's the beauty in all of it is it was just my raw feelings about everything. And then to see people read it and relate to my writing, that's the fuel that keeps me going.

Yeah.

And I just love when somebody comes up at a book event and says, "I read this and I read it to my son at his gravesite. He died in a car accident." And another lady, "I bought 10 of these and gave them to my family at Christmas and said, 'Here, read it. That's how I feel. I don't want to talk about it.'" Yeah. You know, so I'm able to give a voice to the voiceless through my words, and that brings me joy.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's like we need to be given permission to grieve a lot of times. As you said, sometimes people want to shut us up because it makes them feel bad, or they think that, you know, if we express these things, that's a bad thing. And so when people read a book where someone else is expressing their grief, you said it's kind of giving voice to that and giving them permission to use their own voice. The title of your book is My Grief Is Not Like Yours.

What did—

where did that come from? I like that.

I'm glad you asked me. And early on, fresh in my grief of my mom, people would come up to me, very well-intentioned friends and family, and they would offer me, you know, advice or books or tell me, try to relate to me, like, well, when my mom died, I did this.

Yeah.

And when they would tell me things or compare, I just couldn't relate unless, you know, unless their mom had been run over by a tractor that their dad was driving. I couldn't relate.

Yeah.

And all that kept echoing in my mind was my is not like yours. My grief is not like yours. And I thought, if I'm feeling this way, there have to be millions of other people feeling this way, and that's unheard and unwitnessed. And I felt like my mom was being forgotten. I felt like all of a sudden she was an individual on Earth, that when she died, she was just put in a category. And I just felt so unheard. So I said, you know what, that's the title of my book, My Grief Is Not Like Yours. And the reason I titled it that is that so whoever holds the book, whoever has that book, can own that title for themselves, right? And they can write their own pain on its pages, because after each chapter I've got the journaling questions and where they can write in their own grief. So my intention was not so that people would just read about my grief and my story, it was so they could have that title for themselves and feel like they can own their own grief.

Yeah, you mentioned your— when your mother passed, you felt like she was no longer an individual, she was put into a category. What do you mean by that?

It just felt so— and for those of you out there listening, you may understand what I'm saying, but you know, when she was on Earth, she lost her hearing at 18 months old. She was completely deaf but a beautiful communicator. She was the most present person in a room ever. She was always living in the moment, never complained. She was just such a positive and great model of what it's like to actually live in the present, to live today. And when she died, it was all of a sudden everybody, well, when my mom died and when my mom died, and maybe you could— and I was like, wait, we need to just talk about just her right now. She just died. Let's just talk about her. So I have an exercise in the first book where I call it 100 Things. And I just sat at my dad's kitchen table, and I remember I got a piece of notebook paper out and I just started numbering 1 to 100, and I started writing down everything that came top of mind about my mom, 'cause I felt like she was being forgotten. I was like, Mama loved me, Mama loved Barney, that was their dog, Mama loved Daddy, Mama loved the color blue. Mama loved Jesus. You know, I just went down, and you don't have to do 100 things, you can do 10. But if you're feeling unheard, unwitnessed, then maybe get a piece of paper out, get your phone out, and just do the top 10 things about that person that you're missing. And all of a sudden, by having it on paper, you're bringing them to life again.

Yeah.

And their memory and who they were. So that's, that's how it felt, that she was just in a category, died in an accident, you know.

I love that because, you know, one of the fears that we have when we lose someone is that they're going to be forgotten, um, that they're going to be put into a category, as you said. Or, and, you know, for people that are talking to grievers, I think it's important for us to remember, they— we— people mean well. We— I'm going to put myself in there because I, I still stumble over things to say to people that are in grief, even though I've been through it, and that's what I do. So, and we're trying to relate by saying, oh, when my mother died, or when I lost my dog, or whatever. But you're right, every single grief event is unique. The person that you lost is unique. Your relationship with that person is unique. So my grief is not like yours. There aren't 5 neat stages of grief, you know, and everybody doesn't go through it the same way.

If you can resist the urge to say anything, that's what's best. The most memorable moments for me early in each of my griefs is when people would just come and sit with me, just be with me, and just be present. And as I would tell my 10th grade high school students when I was teaching, just zip it. Just zip it. Zip. Yeah. And honestly, the griever would prefer that you not say anything anyway. So you don't have to worry, what do I say, what do I do? You don't have to buy any big thing. You don't have to do any big thing. You just need to be present. Do not underestimate the power of your presence. And in thinking about my grief is not like yours, and each unique loss— grief is not a competition. And I've had a lot of people ask me, which, which loss was hardest for you, right? You know, but grief is not a competition. If you ask a man that has lost his child, what's the hardest loss, the hardest grief, he's going to say the loss of a child. If you ask a man that's just lost his wife, what's the hardest type of loss? He's going to say the loss of a spouse.

Sure.

If you ask someone that just lost their pet, what's the hardest type of loss? They're going to say losing my pet of 20 years or 18 years. But it's not a competition. Every loss— or let me rephrase this— the loss that is the hardest, the loss that is the most Um, how would I say this? The loss that is the hardest is the loss that you are experiencing. The loss that is the hardest is the loss that you are experiencing. And it's not a competition.

Yeah.

And when we say that, we shut some people up, which I think is a good thing. And we kind of bring it all back to I, you know, I lost my mom and my dad, but somebody else has lost a daughter, somebody else has lost a son. I lost mine in a tragic accident, somebody else lost them in a flood, like here in Texas. And, you know, and when you try to make it a competition and say this loss is harder than this loss, then all of a sudden theirs feels, um, discounted. It feel— it feels like it didn't count. It feels less, less than. Yeah, but every loss is significant, and every loss is what's the hardest loss for you.

Yeah, that's so well said. You know, I remember when our daughter passed, um, she was 15, and, and she passed suddenly in her sleep. Um, so that was a sudden loss, and that was totally unexpected. But she had a friend who was— I think Victoria is about a year older than Shayna, and she had glioblastoma. She had a brain cancer. And so she passed slowly, and she was actually expected to pass before Shayna did. So I remember my wife and I went to, to her funeral, which was 6 months after Shayna's. We were— we came out, we're talking about like, so which would be worse, to be Victoria's parents, to go through losing her slowly and watching her deteriorate, or to be us where we didn't have a chance to say goodbye, where it was just like she's here and she's gone? And we both realized it's like they both suck. It's like we don't have to compare them, you know, they both just suck. And there's no, there's no comparing them. It's, it's, it's one of those things you just can't do.

You came to that realization because you were literally in it.

Yeah.

And I think until somebody's actually in it, they can't understand. They can't understand a grief and a loss like that, you know. They haven't experienced it. I myself, looking back before 2019, all I'd ever really lost were pets and my grandparents, and that's kind of an expected loss. I was sad. I was sad, but it didn't like knock me to the ground. And I'd never really thought that much about it. And I realize now some of the things I've said in the past before this happened to me are probably not the right things. I should have just zipped it.

Yeah, yeah, you know, it's one of those things you don't learn until you, you actually, you know, go through it. And because I'm part of Helping Parents Heal and I've talked to so many parents who have lost children, and I see people saying, oh, you don't understand, my loss is the worst, and it is for them, right? You know, but, but they'll say that, you know, well, my— I lost a child to drugs or suicide or to cancer or whatever, and I've seen it all. And it's interesting because on the one hand, our losses are universal. I mean, all loss involves loss, but they're also completely unique. As you said, you know, you lost your mother, but you didn't lose her to a tractor that your father was driving. That adds a layer of complexity that other people are not going to be able to understand.

Exactly. And I'm so glad you get it. You know, grievers usually get it. Unfortunately, we're baptized by fire and we, we immediately understand. But early in my grief, I was really battling all this in my head, and my dad was not really himself, so I couldn't really talk to him. I'd always talk to my dad about anything. He was my minister and my father, right? But I couldn't even talk to him because it would— number one, it was sad. It would bring him— you know, I didn't want to re-traumatize him in any way or let him know I was hurting. But I had so many questions and So I did turn to my cousin. He's a minister and he preached both my parents' funerals. And when I have a question faith-based, I'll talk to him. And I talked a good game there for a while too. You know, I've always been a Christian and I don't remember a time ever not being, but my faith was very important to me until then. And when my dad was pretty much cursing God and said, "There must be no God," then I thought, oh well, then I'm out. And I, I talked a good game for a while, but every time that I got off that road, a sign would happen and it'd bring me right back. So I gave up on my faith, but my faith never gave up on me.

Okay. All right, I want to come back to that. So when you talked about, um, I love that your, your, uh, illustration of grief is like being painted with black paint and then drying and cracking and eventually peeling. But I can imagine, you know, after your father's loss and loss of your counselor and the loss of your, your marriage— I think I've got the— no, your, your mother, right? Your mother first, then your counselor, then your father, or then your marriage, then your father, right?

Yeah, that's right.

I would imagine every time it's like the paint's getting dumped on you again, you know, is kind of—

I would journal to get the pain out, which is what I always urged my two— my students to do. Get it out of you and on to the paper. First 10 minutes of class kids come in and get out a piece of paper, write it all down. I don't want to hear it. We've got stuff to learn. Yeah, write it down. Whatever's bothering you, write it down and then shred it. I had a shredder at the front of the classroom. They could go shred it. It's not going to be graded, but just get it out. And it was called a free write, a 10-minute free write. So I started doing those free writes.

Oh, wow.

For myself. You know, my mom died. I was doing the 100 things and journaling some stuff about her and about what Daddy was going through. And then when my my counselor died, I started writing down the things that she had shared with me all through the years. I didn't want to forget them. And then when my marriage fell apart, oh boy, that one, you know, that wasn't an actual death, but it was a loss that was so significant. That one really dropped me to my knees because you lose the one that you think is going to be there for you the most, was there for you the least. So it's just a betrayal. And so I was journaling all this stuff about that, but every time it was a different feeling, but it was still the same in how I coped with it. I would get out a piece of paper and get it out of me and write it on that page.

Yeah, well, you mentioned your marriage, you know, not being a death. Um, it is in a sense. It's the death of a relationship. It's a death of what you, what you hoped and expected. It's the death of you as, as that person, as you relate to the other person. I, I was divorced many, many years ago, so, you know, grief is— involves loss or, or death, and that is, that is a death. So, um, it's another thing just compiled on top of, you know, other things. So you, you mentioned your father was your minister, and you would, you confide in him. Um, and you mentioned your cousin, because I think grief really has to be witnessed. And a lot of times we will turn to our significant other, our spouse, if we have one. So who did you find? How did you find someone to, to witness your grief?

Well, I have a group of friends, and I call them my fairy blonde mothers.

Hmm.

And they are, um, just these great— and what's crazy about them is they owned a little dress shop in the store where I was a school teacher, and I've gotten to know them, but they also own funeral homes and they're just a really hilarious group of ladies. But I call them my fairy blonde mothers and they swooped in and took care of me. They were a godsend. And one of them would call me every morning and every night, a morning check-in and a nighttime check-in. And they came and stayed with me on numerous occasions and spent the night. And they were here if I wanted to talk or if I didn't want to talk. And so you've got to surround yourself with those F words. And I talk about that in chapter 11 of the first book, My Grief Is Not Yours. It's called More F Words. And that's your faith, your friends, your family, food, fun, fellowship, my foundation. And the Fairy Blonde Mothers were instrumental in my journey because they're the ones that told me it's gonna be okay. You're gonna come out on the other side of this. God has a plan for you. And they were just constantly there every day. Just perfectly planned helping me with these positive thoughts and getting me through. So you've gotta rely on those friends, and you'll find out who the real tried and true friends are, believe me.

Yeah.

You know, the ones that really are there to listen. And the problem in America is that we're not letting people talk. We're not listening. And so their grief is not getting witnessed. And that's what's wrong when you see anger, you see, you know, I went down one rabbit hole one day and I researched the shooters in America, and almost every one of them had some form of loss in their life that hadn't been dealt with.

Yeah, yeah.

So that, that is very concerning to me because I just feel like grief— you know, we are starting the conversation. I'm noticing it a little bit more in media. But in my research study that I did with the second book, 79% of grieving Americans wish that the media would talk more about grief and how to cope.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So we talk about the loss, we talk about the accident, the fatality, the drownings, the floods. We talk about the actual thing.

Right.

But then we don't follow up with, okay, here's what's happening now in this world. They've lost their family a year ago, you know, or they lost their daughter, they lost their parents. Right. You know, we need to follow up more. And how did they do that? How are they doing so well? So I get that question a lot. How are you doing so well? And I take them back to those F words. And it may sound simple, but you've got at least— if you don't have a friend, then you need to be a friend. You need to find one person, one person that you know is going to give you the time and let you talk, let you get it out. Get a piece of paper, start writing it out. And if you're not able to afford counseling, because a counselor is a great tool for healing, then go to your local church or grief share group. Try to find a group of people that are experiencing, you know, sadness like you are, because I've got news for you: sadness is a very normal human emotion. But we like to shut that down real quick here in America and label it depressed, suicidal. Sometimes it's not that. Now, if it is, yes, you need to seek the appropriate help for that, right? But most of the time, a griever is just sad. And I, I just kept asking myself, because I was getting labeled a lot— well, her dad committed suicide, I bet she's going to— I was not suicidal. I was not depressed. I was just sad. And I felt like, when did sad become bad? It's a very normal human emotion. The most human thing you can do is grieve.

Yeah, that's a really, really important point, you know, um, because in the DSM-5, the diagnostic manual for, you know, they diagnosed this thing called prolonged grief disorder, which probably makes some sense, I guess. But, you know, as you said, grieving and being sad doesn't mean you're depressed, as in like a drug is going to help you or something. And I remember when I first heard about this, this prolonged grief disorder, they were so excited because they thought, well, if we treat grief like a disorder, like a, like a drug addiction, then we can find a drug that we can give people and their grief will go away. And it's like, this is not— this is not a brain chemistry thing. This is a— the brain chemistry might change, but it's because we have a reason. And I, I went to a doctor, um, I remember I was, I was switching doctors at the time for some reason, and I went to an older— it was a guy, but it was older doctor, and he said, how are you feeling, you know, blah blah. And he started asking about my, my other than my physical health, which is great, because most doctors don't. And he said, are you feeling any anxiety or depression? I said, yeah. And he goes, oh, really? And he goes, you know, what's going on? I said, well, my daughter passed away. And he goes, okay, well, that's normal. You're going to feel that. I'm like, great, I appreciated that. Then I ended up going to a younger doctor a little bit after that. It was a young woman. And she asked me the same question. And I told her, she goes, oh, well, maybe we can prescribe something for you. I was like, no, I don't, I don't need any medication. It's normal for me to feel this way when I lost my daughter.

Yeah, grief is not a disorder, right? That's like saying— when they did that, I was furious because 2 weeks after my mom's accident, Gail diagnosed me with complicated grief. 2 weeks. And if I had not gotten that diagnosis, I don't think I'd be sitting here talking to you today. Because when, when she told me I had complicated grief, all of sudden I felt like I belonged. I felt like I wasn't going crazy. It's not just me. There's actually a name for this, right? And now that they've taken that away, and you have to have been experiencing what I was going through after 2 weeks for 12 months before you can get the diagnosis, right? And then to call it a disorder, that's like saying if you have ever loved anyone, you have a disorder.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there is complicated grief. You know, it makes sense because you talked about we lose a pet, we expect it. And typically, if we lose a pet or a grandparent who's elderly, we accept it, we move on, we don't need any kind of, you know, assistance. But having your father, you know, have an accident with your mother with a tractor, that comes with a whole set of things. And then these— and then when these things compound on top of each other, that's when we might need to reach out for some help. But it doesn't mean it's a medical thing, and it doesn't mean a pill is going to help, right?

And I'm just so, you know, I want to fight that fight, but I'm just gonna wait and hope that they come to me and say, hey, Theo, we heard you did a research study about it. And yeah, yeah, I did. I've got the data to back up what I'm saying. But, um, prolonged grief is not a disorder. It's the most normal thing that your body could be doing. I would actually be worried if you were not grieving 12 months. You will always grieve your beautiful daughter. That's a fact. That's a fact because your grief is the love.

Yeah, that's, that's exactly right. I do want to talk to you. You mentioned earlier, um, the, the F's, and one of them was faith. And I'm always curious when people have a faith, and your father was your minister, and you said you're, you're Christian. Um, but you said you went through a time of where maybe that was tested. What was that like for you?

It was very empty. It was scary. And I didn't have my dad to talk to about it, and he's the one I would always talk to about it. But, you know, talking to my cousin and getting that reassurance that what I was experiencing was very normal for us to question God and to be angry at God. God can handle it. God, you know, you will hear people say, well, God won't give you more than you can handle, but that's not even biblical. It's not even in the Bible, right? And God may give you more than you can handle, and my dad is proof of that. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not still part of his plan. He's still— Romans 8:28 says all things work together for good for them that love God. All things For God, all things doesn't mean all good things. It means all things. He will turn them to work for good. And now I see this book, and I, I remember my sister calling me just a few weeks after Mama's accident. She knew I was starting to write a book, and she said, I think that the all things is your book. God's going to use that to help people. And so their beautiful love story now is helping other people, people I'll never even know. The ripple effect Right, right.

So your, your faith, you know, you said it was tested, but you said you're— I forgot how you put it, it was so, it was so well said. You said, uh, what did you say about your faith?

I gave up on my faith. Yeah, my faith never gave up on me.

Yes. Yeah, I think that's, I think that's beautiful.

God sent me a sign every time, and I would just— it's almost like it slapped me in the face. Yeah, it's like, hey, wake up, I'm here, we're gonna do this together.

So let's— we, we've talked about your, your first book. Let's, let's move in and talk more about the signs and, and the hope. So before your, your mother transitioned, did you believe in signs? What were your thoughts about that?

I, you know, I kind of was— I had some friends that that's all they would do is believe in every little thing as a reason or a sign, and I was like, ah, you know, and I never really thought much about it. Like, I've tried to remember now, when my grandparents died, did my mom look for signs from her and, um, I, I never really thought much about it because I've never been in it, right? And so now that I'm in it, I started to open my eyes. And like I said, some of the signs had to slap me in the face. And I'll go ahead and give a spoiler on the second book that releases December 2nd, but I was in my bathroom one night and I have one of those Echo Dots or the Alexa, you know, And I always like to listen to— I'm taking my makeup off, getting ready for a bath or a shower. I always like to listen to some classical piano, and that's all it ever plays in there. Maybe some Christmas music at Christmas time. But I said— and this was back the summer, I think it was the summer, just a year after Daddy had died— and I said, Alexa, classical music and piano. And this song came on, not classical music piano. And it was by Jimmy Durante, or Durante. And it says, um, may the love that you've shown— and I mean, it was like, it was just, it's like he was talking to me. And I, I didn't think anything of it at first, and I just said, um, Alexa off, because I was just going to restart it, right? And it wouldn't turn off. And every time I said Alexa off, it got louder. And I said— and I, I videoed it so that I, so that I could go back. I wasn't making this up. I videoed it. And I go, Alexa Alexa off, as articulate as I could, and it got louder.

Oh wow.

And it played the whole song. May the love that you've shown, may the love be shown to you, um, may you surround yourself. It was almost like Daddy or Mama was just letting me know they're there, their love was surrounding me. And it was a song I'd never heard in my life, I'd never played it before, and I had to like Google the song. But every time I said Alexa off, it got louder. And then when the song was over It just turned off. I didn't say, Alexa, off. It just turned off.

Oh, wow.

And I'll never forget where I was and how I felt. And I smiled and I was like, they're all around me. They're— there's, you know, they're— they're here. And so the signs in my book are ones that you cannot easily discount. And I'll give you another one. And this one is just so huge and it's just so beautiful. So my dad was a farmer and a preacher, a farmer, rancher, and a preacher. We were peanut farmers. And my mom was deaf. She lost her hearing when she was 18 months old due to a high fever. Well, I have now found a new love, so it is possible to love after loss. And guess what? He's a farmer, just like my dad, lives about 30 minutes from my home, and he's deaf.

Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

I mean, that was just like— he and I both, to this day, we talk about it all the time. My mom and dad were up there like, give her somebody. And my dad's like, give her a farmer. And then my mom's like, and he's deaf. And then God says, yes, let her, so she's not alone. So I do have somebody that I share, uh, movies with and dinner with, and his family's just been so wonderful to me.

Wow.

You know, it's beautiful. And I talk about him in the second book and what a beautiful sign that was from above. You can't discount that.

Yeah, well, congratulations on that. Yeah, so, um, it's interesting because, you know, I, I grew up— my grandfather was my pastor, um, and we never talked about things like signs. I didn't know anything about, you know, signs or people being, you know, still being around. It's like you die, you go to heaven, you're not here.

Exactly.

So when these signs started coming through— but you said you had friends that were, were into that, so I guess you were like, okay, well, I guess this is real.

I started reading some books on it. Um, I started reading some books, um, about signs that other people were experiencing and still being very discerning because I grew up— it sounds like you, like you did— um, Daddy never talked about signs. You know, only thing you need to worry about is God, what his plan is for you, right? But I do feel that God used these signs of hope to get me back up because I was down in the dirt. I was buried, so I thought, but I was actually just planted.

Yeah, yeah. Well, the, the thing is, um, you know, we talked earlier about like, you know, people say God won't give you more than you can handle, which we know is not biblical. But I, I— The Rolling Stones said you can't always get what you want, but you get what you need. And that's what I always say. It's like, you know, we may not get what we want, but if we look at our loved ones, our our angels, guides, guide, whatever, they are there helping us, leading us, giving us those signs if we open up our eyes to them, just, just kind of encourages, you know, as we're moving along our way.

Yeah, and I talk about angels in the second book. I have a whole chapter. I felt like I needed to talk about it because I was almost writing to myself, but I'd always referred to my parents as guardian angels now over my daughter and I'd always referred to some other people as angels, but the truth is God's had the same number of angels from the beginning of creation until now. They're just messengers of his. And actually, for us as Christians to be considered an angel would be a downgrade because angels cannot even receive God's salvation. And they are simply the messengers that God sends. And like you said, to protect us sometimes. And And I do believe, as in the Bible, many times angels would take on human form. And I do believe that that still can go on. And I've read a lot of books on it and I talk about it in the book.

Yeah.

So, so, you know, it's kind of— I keep using this word a lot, but it was my one key word for book number one and it is for book number two. And it's beautiful, beautiful, beautiful was the last word that my mom typed. To me on her phone when she texted me the word beautiful.

Oh wow. Yeah, yeah.

So you—

I know you, you did a grief project and you, you touched about that, uh, earlier. What is, what is your project? What did you do?

Well, I was at a seminar with a brand company that I'm a part of in Nashville a little over 2 years ago, and one of their guest speakers was Jason Dorsey, and he runs the Center for Generational Kinetics. Out of Austin, Texas.

Okay.

And he asked the audience, um, what's his topic? Because he was talking about his research. He goes, what's a topic you would have us research? And I just raised my hand really quick and said grief. And he said, great, talk to me. So afterwards I talked to him. He said, I've never researched that in America. And he Googled really quick stateofgrief.com, and it wasn't even— you know, we went to GoDaddy and I secured that site really quick. So you can go to stateofgrief.com right now and download the full study.

Okay.

And there's a QR code in the back of the new book, and I, I cite several of the findings in the margins of the new book. But as a school teacher, I'd always taught my students that you can't really speak or write about something until you've researched it. And I felt like since I'm writing about grief, I need to know about it. So I hired the company. It cost me more than my first house, but that's how passionate that I was about getting this done. And after my dad had passed, he left me some money from the farm, and I felt like God was saying, use this. And they did. It took over a year and a half, and it's a very in-depth national study of 1,000 participants from all generations and all ethnicities that have experienced loss. And we were— it was painstaking, it was tedious, but we got some great findings. And it was not really a shock to me because I felt like we were already in a pretty bad state of grief in America. But it was surreal to actually see it in black and white.

So what was surprising to you? What was shocking to you?

Like, 79% of grieving Americans wish the media would talk more about grief and how to cope. Um, 70%— here, I've got, I've got— I'm going to pull them up right here and just read you my top ones. Okay. Um, yeah, 68— sorry, 68% of grieving Americans say they avoided people or isolated themselves after their most recent grief, loss, or tragedy. 64% of grieving Americans think about the grief, trauma, or pain in their life more than once a day.

Mhm.

And 42% of grieving Americans have grappled with thoughts of suicide after their most recent loss.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, it's a lot. And I know our suicide rate in this country is going up.

Yeah, yeah, those are really, um, yeah, those are shocking numbers. Um, and, and we— what we do know is that we don't teach people how to deal with grief. Either. We don't teach people how to deal with grievers, and we don't teach people personally how to deal with grief. So I think a lot of times we do feel isolated. And we feel clueless, you know, what do I do? What am I supposed to expect? You know, when I'm going through this? People want to know what's normal, which is interesting, because it's different for everybody. But there are some, some general things that kind of, you know, come along with it. You can probably expect to feel sad, you know, It's not, it's not a bad thing to feel sad.

I wish they taught a class in high school about it, because in most high schools, unfortunately, there will be some traumatic accident.

Yeah.

And there are some type of loss where the school is going to have a collective grief where they're all feeling it. Or there's things going on in America that the students are feeling. There's a collective grief among them. So I wish they did have a class where they teach them this is what's normal. But instead, in another shocking study, is that the majority of the people that are isolating themselves in that percentage is Gen Z, which is our 21 to 26-year-olds, I believe.

Okay.

The Gen Z generation is not grieving. They're hiding it, isolating, shoving it to the side, not grieving. So why is that shocking? Because guess what they're doing right now? They're starting families.

Yeah.

And so what are their children going to do? Where are we going to be when their children do not grieve?

Yeah, it's like we're going backward, you know. It's like our parents' generation didn't express a lot of emotions, you know. They didn't, they didn't, uh, they just kind of sucked things up. And I've talked to people who's like, maybe their grandmother, their mother lost a child, for example, and they're like, they never spoke about it again. And they— but they became a very changed person. Our generation, we were taught a little bit more to express things. But it seems like it's kind of going the other way with the isolation, which is a very, very sad thing. So this study that you've done, hopefully, will, you know, some people start to look at that and realize this is a problem. Because grief is— of all the things that we're going to experience in life, it's one of the most almost guaranteed to be universal. Universal. If you live long enough, it is universal. We're all going to experience a loss at some point, uh, if you're here. So we deny it though, we bury our heads in the sand, and we don't think it's an important skill, important thing to learn about.

Yeah, we didn't— we just take it for granted that everybody's going to figure out how to figure it out themselves. But a lot of people don't have the foundation like what I had, such a strong foundation built on my faith and my mom and dad. And, you know, everything was really pretty perfect for my, for my childhood. And so I feel like since I was blessed with that gift, that wonderful foundation of a great mother and father, strong characters and my faith, that it is my duty now to use my voice to help those that didn't have that.

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome that you do that. You write that hope is the missing ingredient in life after loss. So what is it that helped you to feel hope again? I know you talked about your support system, you talk about your faith. Was there anything else? And explain why you think hope is the missing ingredient.

Well, when we're first grieving and fresh grievers, everything's hopeless. There's no— I didn't even remember that word hope. I had just— I didn't even remember the word when somebody said it to me. The first time that I heard it was when I entered. One of my favorite things to do, and I tell people all the time, my mom always said, "Hobbies make you happy. You have to keep putting yourself into doing something, doing your hobby, doing what brings you joy." And what brings me joy is riding contests. I love entering riding contests. I love submitting an essay to some crazy contest because now we have the internet and we can find contests everywhere and it's just fun for me. I love the competition. I'm very competitive, so it's fun whether I win or not. It was just fun to have the anticipation of maybe I will, and I have won several, so it's a lot of fun. But I remember a friend of mine saying, well, it's okay, just keep sending it in and just have hope that, that you'll win one of them. And I thought, hope, that's what I'm doing. When I send in something to a writing competition, I have hope. And, and then when signs would happen, like the butterfly— that's another sign I'll talk about in the book— that was very early after my mom's accident. This butterfly, this very same butterfly, every night in the same part of my backyard would come sit on my hand. And I have a picture of it in the book, every night. And I just was like, that, that is hope trying to show me that life's still exists. Life is for the living. We're still here for a reason. And I've got to— I've got to keep seeing the hope. My mom and dad did so many things for so many people. And I'm, you know, I'm 53 now. I was 47, 48, 49 writing that first book. I've got a lot of years left that I need. And to show my daughter— I have one daughter. She's, um, at the time she was at A&M University. And then during all this, somehow she got herself into law school and she's now an attorney in Houston, Texas.

Hmm.

And through all that, she is hope. Yeah, she is hope. So hope is always there. Here's the big news flash for everybody. You can give up and think everything's hopeless, and that's okay. You're going to have to do that for a time if you've been through something bad. It's hopeless. It's dark. But eventually you'll see little rays of light when that black paint that's covering you starts to chip away. And that's hope. And hope is always there. It's just waiting for you to see it.

Yeah. Wow. That's beautiful. I love the way you said that.

The lighthouse is always on the shore, but when you're out in the dark at sea, you can't see it.

Right.

But it's still there shining. You just have to wait till the fog lifts a little bit, then you can see it.

Yeah, I think that's beautifully, beautifully said. And hope, I think that's the one thing that we always need. If we lose hope, again, we can lose it for a while. But you have to get that hope back. That's what human needs is, we need that to survive. We need to know that something good can still come. And when you're in that early grief, you know, and it's— this is what's important to understand, you, you will lose sight of the hope. It will be like the black paint's completely covered. It doesn't mean it's gone, but you just lost sight of it. I think that's a beautiful image.

Yeah, thank you.

You, you talk about journaling, and I know it's been an important part of your, your journey. Um, you're a writer, you talk about writing, and I— but I know people will say, well, I'm not a writer. I don't know how to write. I've never journaled. How do I get started? What advice do you have for people that are in that position?

You know, writing comes easy to me, so it's not lost on me that for some people, because I was a writing teacher, so my students, I had students that were just like, I can't write, Miss. I just can't. I can't do it. And I would urge you, even though you say you can't write, to just get out a pen and paper if you're able to and just start writing a little bit of what's in your head, just a little bit, and see where that goes. But if it's not going anywhere, that's fine. Some other outlets for grief are finding that one confidant. If you have one confidant, it could be your dog. My dog, he's heard everything. He's been with me every step of the way. You've got to find an outlet for your pain. It could be going to Hobby Lobby and going down the craft aisle, finding one thing that strikes you that you want to start doing. You've got What hobbies make you happy? You've got to have something that's moving you to have a reason to get up in the morning and go have a cup of coffee with a group. And if you're not part of any group, like I said, if you don't have a friend, become a friend. Go to your local coffee shops and go talk to people. You know, Daddy did that. Daddy said— Daddy never even had a cell phone, but he'd go up and just start talking to a bunch of people. We'd be at a gas station and getting gas, and I'd say, Mama, where'd Daddy go? She'd say, oh, he's over there with those motorcycle men. And he'd be standing in the middle of this big motorcycle group, and he'd— they'd be laughing, and he'd be preaching, and he would talk to people. And he always said, they always say don't talk to people, but when I talk to people, they want to talk. So just start talking to people, and they're going to talk to you, and you might just hit it off with somebody and have a friend that you can start talking to. Go to a local grief share group. Start, you know, baby steps. If you don't feel like doing anything but pulling the covers up over your head, do that. But just know that tomorrow's another day and you need to try again because there's a reason that you're here. And it might be just for one person in the future that's gonna benefit from your life. So don't be too hard on yourself either. Give yourself grace and grief. And give others grace around you for what they may say or do. Yeah, but you know, just give yourself some grace, but try some baby steps. Find a hobby. Baking— I love cooking and baking my mom's recipes. Decorating— I like thinking about decorating for the holidays. Um, shopping might be one if you've got the finances and you can do that. And go find a friend or be a friend. Go to your local— this is one thing Daddy always did, and we went every other Sunday. Daddy had a service there, and then Daddy and Mama would go during week, visit your local nursing homes. Daddy always said, if you're feeling bad about anything in your life, go to the nursing home and help those people feel better. And all of a sudden, the focus is not on you anymore, it's on them. That's when you're going to see the transition for yourself from hopelessness to hope, when you can put it off and out of you and help somebody else.

Yeah, I think that's awesome. And I, you know, you talked about a lot of things you mentioned were creative things. And I believe that we are, we are creators. And people might say, I'm not artistic, but you said go to Hobby Lobby and start doing something, or, you know, writing, or, you know, whatever it is to, to move energy, you know, through you. And as I understand your books, I think both of them have journaling prompts. So for people that say, I don't know how to journal, because that could be very difficult sitting down looking at a blank page and saying, what am I supposed to do. Um, they're also— just to offer this also— there's some, there are some tools. Uh, like I know Apple has a journal app included with their phone now, and you can, you can get that to prompt you, and it'll, I, it'll say, you went to lunch today, and it knows a lot about you, right? Or you went for a walk today, journal about your walk. So you can use tools.

And that's another thing, right? Exercise. You know, exercise is another outlet for your grief. Get it. Go join a gym and exercise. I started yoga 2 years ago and I do it every single day. I do some form of yoga on YouTube every day, and that has helped me, just that great feeling that you get afterwards. And in my second book, I did put a template in the back for a writing template. You just fill in the blanks.

Okay.

Because I was a writing teacher, so I know how hard it is to get people to write. But yeah, and some people physically can't write, and I understand that, but maybe they can do a voice— get a tape recorder and start just saying how they feel and getting it out. Even if they don't have anybody to listen right then, they could say it whenever and play it for somebody or mail it to somebody to listen to. But there's a lot of different ways, but you've got to find the way that's right for you. For my sister, it was exercise. For me, it was writing and carrying on this misery to ministry that I'm doing in this pain to purpose. But I— you've got to find the meaning, which is what you're passionate about. You got to find out what that is— cooking, baking, walking, dog sitting, whatever it is. Maybe become a dog sitter and go sit with other people's dogs. But you got to find what that meaning is. And then later, when you, when you turn that meaning into purpose, that's when you start serving others. So let me rephrase that. When you find the meaning in your life, that's what you're passionate about, it's what you have to do no matter what. For me, it's writing. When you turn that into service for others, that is purpose.

Yeah, yeah. Wow, I like that. Yeah. And it's, it's, you know, as you said, we've got to find the thing that works for us. It's different for everybody. I, I, uh, interviewed a woman, uh, on my podcast who had lost her mother, and people were recommending different things. And they were like yoga, and she tried yoga, she didn't like it. She tried walking, she tried, you know, journaling, whatever. And then she got into powerlifting. And that happened to be the thing that worked for her. She loved powerlifting. She goes, I like feeling— it makes me feel empowered. It makes me feel strong. She liked just the, like, the meditative aspect of counting the reps. And it's like, okay, well, powerlifting is not for everybody. But that was her thing, and she found it. So we've got to try different things. So for people that say, I haven't found my thing yet, you know, just keep trying and find that thing that you said that really just— that you kind of get lost in, that you just really enjoy doing. Absolutely. So in your book, your new book, which is coming out by the time this— by the time this is out, your book will be out. We talked about, you know, this is the book that talks about hope and finding hope and moving forward. So for that person that's still in the early part, right, that's still in the part when you wrote your first book about grief, what do you have to say to them about hope? Right now, they're not feeling anything at all. They're not feeling hope.

I don't even want them to think about it. I feel what you're feeling right now. You need, you've got to feel that. You can't just jump. You can't just jump and mask it and put it under the rug. You've got to feel what you're feeling. But just know that hope is there. It's just waiting for you when you're ready. And open your eyes. Open your eyes to the signs around you because they're not that far away. I still have a relationship with my parents. It's just a very different one. I talk to them every day. Their spirit's still surrounding me. Their spirit's still on the farm. I hear them in my head. They're still here. It's just a different relationship. Their physical body may be gone from this earth, but they're still here. So every day that we miss them is just one day closer to when we'll see them again.

Yeah.

How I like to think of it. But just— feel what you're feeling right now and just know that, that hope is around the corner. It's going to be there when you're ready, when God's ready for you to see it, and he's going to show it to you. So keep your eyes open for it.

Yeah, I love that. I think this is probably a really great, great way to wrap up. So I do want to ask you though, is there anything that you would like to talk about that I didn't ask you about?

I love when people ask me that because I have no idea. I, I, I'm building a house right now out on my family farm, and it's going to be finished in about February.

Oh wow.

Of 2026. I've been working on it for over a year with a builder, and I'm bringing a lot of the old things in the old farmhouse into my new house. And that's very important. People need to know that healing is not forgetting. Healing is moving forward and integrating our grief. I'm bringing the past with me. I've got parts of the old farmhouse in my new farmhouse. My mom and dad are still there with me. Like I said earlier, it's just different. But my new farmhouse is just beautiful. I'm so excited to be back there. And, you know, a lot of people are like, I'm surprised you're able to move back there where your mom died or where your dad died. But, and at first I was questioning, am I gonna do this? But then I got a sign. It's in that second book. And I was like, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be. This is exactly how God intended for me to spend my last years. I'm 53, you know, hopefully the next 50 in this house on the farm where I grew up, where my roots are, writing my books. And, um, so that's where I'm going to be.

That's awesome. I love that. I love that. I love that hope. And I love what you talked about was we move forward with them, we take them with them, we continue the relationship. So Fia, remind people of the names of both your books and where people can find you.

The first book is called My Grief Is Not Like Yours. My Grief Is Not Like Yours. And that's anywhere that books are sold. It's Amazon, Barnes Noble. You can go to my website and email me, and we've got them here, and I'll sign it and send it to you. Awesome. And, um, then my second book is also same places, and it's called Holy Hope all the way. Hope all the way. My grief is not like yours, and Hope All the Way by Theo Boyd. And my website is thinktheo.com.

Awesome. Well, again, thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing, uh, sharing with us, and, uh, good luck with the farmhouse.

Thank you so much for having me and letting me share to help some people out there.

All right, enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

Thank you.

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