Nothing Happens by Chance: Celine O’Donovan’s SHOCKING Revelations After Beating Cancer!

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian D Smith says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

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Hi everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of Grief to Growth. Today I've got with me a very special guest as always, but her name is Céline O'Donovan. And Selene is a native of Salt Hill, Galway. And if you're like I am, you don't know where that is, but it's in Ireland. She's following an international career in marketing for over 25 years. She's now a published author. And the change in direction was accelerated by personal lessons that she learned after her diagnosis with breast cancer in 2016 and its aftermath. Now her message is nothing happens by chance, and all life events are sent to spur spiritual growth enabled us to fulfill our individual gifts. This reframing of how we see our lives now shapes her writing. Her mission is to create personal and practical epiphany moments that allow her readers to discover this for themselves. Themes of creative expression, authenticity, and personal sovereignty are explored through their personal journey that was prompted by her cancer experience. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief 2 Growth Selena Donovan.

Hi, Brian, thank you very much for having me.

Yeah, it's really good. Really good to meet you. We're just talking where we're— you're in Ireland, which you guys have St. Patrick's Day coming up. I'm in Ohio. It's a pretty big day here too. And spring's in the air. So it's a, it's a really great time to be, to be doing this and talking about, you know, your, your personal journey and how you've kind of had this renewal that was prompted by, by your cancer experience. So, so Start wherever you like and tell me what led you to the point where you are now.

Oh, that's— okay, what I'll— the way I'll describe it, because I sort of divide it up often into my life pre-breast cancer and my life after, because the only way I can describe it is it's really like a rebirth. It's— and it's been a process, you know, it's still unfolding. Every time I think I've got to somewhere in this and, you know, I know something, I go, oh wow, and it's something else is revealed. And that's the wonder of this. You're sort of going deeper and deeper, it feels, into it. So yeah, I'll just maybe take— give a little sense of what my life was like and who I was before it, and then what happened. Um, so yeah, I, I grew up in, in, in Galway in Ireland. I'm a middle child of a brother and a sister. Um, I thought about this a little bit really recently because I launched my book at a creative retreat that I just mentioned to you there on the west coast of Ireland a couple of weeks ago, and how broke my story down or explain it, um, I don't know if you remember the TV show Born Free, do you, or the movie, and the couple Joy Adamson and her husband. And I was thinking about that TV show. Now this might sound like I'm going off a little bit, but it just really parallels with my own life story. So I was preparing to speak at that event, and the, the theme of this was all about personal expressions of freedom and what does it mean to be free. And As I was thinking about it, I remembered back to that TV show and I was about 6 or 7 and I just remembered this joy when I watched it. I felt so free inside and I hadn't connected with that. I'm now 54, so that was a long time ago. And I went back and I watched a trailer again on YouTube and I felt the same feeling. I said, wow, what is that? That wasn't just the show and what they were doing. You know, they basically, for any one of your listeners who hasn't heard or seen it, they rescue a lion cub whose mothers die. So this lion cub is born free, they bring her in and they domesticate her, so she lives with them domesticated. And after a number of years they realize this isn't very fair, she's a wild animal, a free spirit, she needs to be set free, but they have to prepare her to return to the wild and live free again. And I read that and I went, wow, that feels like my life story, that sort of feels like where I've been, that as very young child, I have very, very strong memories of being very connected to something much bigger than myself. And it's only now I'm beginning to see what was going on. Because I had— I was very chatty as a very young child. And I can have a memory of an awful lot of information or words coming through, I just couldn't stop talking. And, and everybody— but that became something like, oh, we need to get her to go to elocution and slow her down. So there was all these, just within the systems that we live in. Sort of saying, no, no, it's not good to be talking all the time. But I didn't know how to regulate whatever was coming in. It was just this joy and talking, talking, talking. And so I— so that was, that was early me. And then I started to suppress that voice because it started to become, you know, this isn't really acceptable in normal everyday life to be non-stop talking. And, um, and also I was quite emotional as a child, so a lot of emotion going on. I could feel a lot around me, I could feel a lot in my family, and again the world I sort of came into that wasn't really, you know, let's say not accepted, but it was just— it wasn't— I learned that I had to, to— for my safety or my sense of well-being, I need to keep my voice sort of quiet and I needed to keep my emotions in. Now that was all unconscious, but it's only as I check back— I also then had my tonsils taken out as a very young child when I was 2. There was a lot of trauma with that, and that's all connected with the voice. You know, the throat chakra. When you look at it, I had night terrors for about a month after that, my mother said. So little piece by piece, I just started to go, okay, something happened at a very young age. We are all born— I really believe that— and know we're very connected to where we came from, our source, from God, whatever that is for you, or whatever anyone, you know, your true nature. And the systems and the world that we come into often, um, doesn't, let's say, nurture that off, you know, not always. In some cases maybe. And so I— we all we go into family systems, education systems, work systems, and we take on this role. That's how my understanding. So I took on this role in the world, which was I need to keep my voice down, I need to keep my emotions in, I need to behave a certain way in my family to fit in. I'll, you know, I have to fit into a certain job. And it became a pattern. Now, I was unconscious. I had a quite nice life, and I was going along, but I often felt— I don't— I never felt I really fit in. There was something not— it was always an effort, always an effort. And I to anyone looking in from the outside, my life probably looked great. Like, if we all look at each other, nobody knows what's going on behind. So I went, continued on with my life. And then I had a— was that my first big blow? Or, you know, I love the title of your podcast, Grief to Growth, because I thought about what was the grief. And cancer wasn't the grief in my life. It was my life before cancer was the grief. And Even when I say that now, it's very emotional, you know. It's sort of connecting in that something was that I can connect into that young child, something that sort of was cut very early. And so there was a sad— there was sort of a sadness always going on behind that. And, um, but I went on with my life, lovely. And then at the— I, um, I lived in Galway, went to college, studied marketing. Then I moved to the capital on the east coast of Ireland in my early 20s, got a job in a big bank. Corporate life, met my best friend there, met my future husband there. Two people who are now, you know, um, very soul people in my life, like soul relationships. And, um, when I met my husband, it was like that was the first meeting of someone who ever truly saw me. It was just— we both always say it was just this boom, such a soul. It was beautiful. Um, like we both saw light when we saw each other, like you talked about the light with your daughter. We both— it was only afterwards we said it, you know, we sensed it off each other. We didn't really understand, you know, it was 20, 21-year-old, you don't really understand what's going on. So we really connected, we ended up getting married, and then the tragic thing was we, we ended up splitting up because he ended up being gay, and he came out as gay. He hadn't fully— so that sunk us both into, I think, um, that's where the grief really started to show itself in my life, and I think in his. But we both know we came to each other for that purpose, to set us on this path that we would find ourselves again. And it's interesting in that journey, we are now, you know, so connected again on a very different level, but on a soul level. And I describe it as we both say, it's a love that goes beyond time and space. And that's what it's always felt. But we didn't know it, you know, as a young person, you don't understand what to do with this. So you assume you get married. So that, you know, that was what, you know, that's the next steps. And I suppose we we were in that, but it was beautiful, but it was awfully tragic as well, because to meet someone, the first person who really sees you and gets you on that level, and then to have it just torn from you about a few years later was just— so I went on my own, I suppose, um, path of into the darkness really for a number of years. Many people mightn't have seen it, but I, I buried everything. I buried the pain. So I talk about the grief that you talk about, that grief, you know, was there from a young age, and it just exploded in me. But, and I suffered from everything from anxiety, addiction, depression, I was still functioning, still functioning in the world, nobody knew this about me. I was a great actor, and I suppressed all of that. Because I suppose the thing, and I feel very strongly about that, anyone who's suffering is that, you know, even in that, as much as we want to be there for other people, most people I knew couldn't hold, you know yourself, when you're in something very deep, you know, it's not something we can get support, but it was very hard, I could see, for people to be around me in that. They just didn't know. They did their best. It's not a criticism, it was just— but it was a very, very difficult time. So yeah, the years went by. I had gone to Greece to live there, and I ran away basically, like Shirley Valentine in the book, found a different sort of life there for a year, but it was running away. I got into a relationship that was not healthy. I was teaching English there, but It was what I needed, it was survival mode, you know, you do what you need to do and then I came back and it was interesting, I sort of came back full circle when I came back to Ireland, I got a job back in Galway where I had left when I was born, where I was born and I ended up back here in 2005, I worked in the university here, I worked with young people which I loved, I worked with teenagers, one of my greatest joys ever and it's something I'd love to go back to in some form but again, it was a life of— I sort of feel that I was still in, let's say, that tamed, domesticated, within the system, sort of like that, like the— like Elsa the lion cub, you know, sort of. There was something was like my spirit was calling to me, but, you know, and I didn't really know what was going on. So I was getting more and more burnt out. I was getting more sort of depressed. I don't know if I was depressed, on and off depressed, but anxious, very flash, just felt very, very, um, yeah, not, not in a good place. And ultimately my work kept me going for a number of years, but that also started to feel quite empty because I had— I was meeting a lot of young people with a lot of hopes and dreams, and they wanted to do lots of different things. And I worked at a university, and the message in Ireland— I don't know if it's the same in the States— it's so competitive to get into university, and it's not for everybody. But that was my role, to talk to them and I found myself feeling very disillusioned, like I could just see the light go out of their eyes going, 'My parents won't pay for me to do this, I have to do that.' And so I just didn't feel comfortable talking that way to them. And so all of it, all of this, it was building like to a crescendo, and a number of things happened. I had a car accident a year before my diagnosis, and to me that was literally— I was brought to a standstill, like just I remember the level of anxiety and stress, so I was getting lots of little warning signs. And, you know, and I think life always does. I would say that to anyone, you know, to pay attention to everything. Everything is happening for a reason. I have— I can say that 1,000% in my life. I have no doubt. I would have been careful saying that. I say it for me, I don't say it for anyone else, but, um, I absolutely have no doubt. Like Wayne Dyer, I don't know if you ever heard of Dr. Wayne Dyer, the lovely, uh, passed away. I loved his sort And he wrote a book, I Can See Clearly Now, in his 70s. And I loved it because he talked about, you know, we never know. You know, he looked back at his time when he was in an orphanage when he was 3 or 4, and he said, um, even then he was doing that work that the young children that were coming in, he was cheering them up and saying, oh, it's great here, you don't have to worry about parents, we can do what we like. And even then he had that outlook. And I just thought, wow, you know, the training ground. He was in and I see that in my own life as well. Everything was preparing me and is always preparing us for our next step and our next stage. And so everything that I had been through was preparing me for when, when cancer sort of arrived on my door to me. So I had that car accident. I'll just quickly— that was a year before, stopped for about a month. I had a bit of a breakdown, I believe. I don't know what a breakdown is like other than I couldn't function mentally. And it was like this— if someone rang me, there was fizzing sound. I couldn't process things, I didn't understand it, but I got through it and straight back on the treadmill again. Go, go, go, go, go, because I didn't know what else to do. And, you know, I sort of see like we— something happens to us, we go outside the system, and then we're patched up and we're expected to get back onto the treadmill again. So, and I did that. There was a lot of things that happened. I had another— I had a very powerful experience with the healer where even just before the car accident, I had a lot of this stress that I didn't know. All of this suppression of years was starting to bubble to the surface, and it was like it was saying, no, no, can't, you know, you can't bury this any longer, you can't run from it any longer. And what saved me, or helped me, going into the cancer experience was I had got into a very difficult relationship as well, as someone who was a very narcissist— is the only way to describe it— but very challenging, and I really didn't know what was going on at the time. And I ended up— someone recommended I see this healer. I went to this Reiki and other things, and when I left his room, um, the next day, literally for a month, I had this tsunami of release of emotion every day. I— it just came on me, and I, I didn't know what was happening. And I had to ring him, and he said, your higher self, you've agreed you're, you're ready to start releasing some of this. You don't need to understand what's going on. You just need to let this out of your body, it's, you know, it's going to kill you. And so that happened and it was amazing. I said to him, but I can't stop it, it's literally hap— I have no control over it. And he said, just ask that it happened when you're not working, you know, that's when you're on your own. And I did. And from that day on, it only ever happened when I was on my own. It was amazing. That was a month of literally helping me clear some of the old trauma. So yeah, and then after that car accident, yeah, I went back to work and then not surprisingly 8, 10 months later, I found a lump on my right breast, and then I went to the GP and yeah, diagnosed with breast cancer. And I have to say, I, I, I've— everybody's experience is different, but after I got over the initial shock, you know, when you hear these words, like any words that are life-changing like that, the, the strangest thing happened. It actually— I felt relief. Relief is the only way I can describe it. I just went, I can stop, I can stop. I just couldn't do— I sort of knew if my life had to continue in the way it was for much longer, you know, something else was going to happen. So my overwhelming feeling of relief— I know that may not be the case for anyone else, but you know what it was, Brian D Smith, as well? It was really interesting. For the first time in my life, my life made sense. I thought everything was just randomly— what is all this that's happening to me? Why am I experiencing such pain? Why am I finding it difficult? Why am I feeling burnt out? And it was basically, I was being shown, this is— you are not living the way you, you are meant to live. You, you know, we all come here, my sense is, with a, with a spirit and a soul that wants to express itself and shine brightly like your daughter. And, you know, So some of us, it takes longer, you know. I was like sort of suppressed for so, so long, and I think there's a cost. There's a cost to that suppression of the human spirit in whatever form it happens to you. And at some point, you know, if we go back even— I often think pre-COVID, and people say, 'Oh, I'd love to be back the way it was,' and I go, 'Well, it wasn't so wonderful where I was. There was more people around me, and young people, and people on medication, and depression, and anxiety, and homeless.' Oh my God, the problem. So, and to me, they're, they're a sign that this system, this staying in these, the system is not working. This is not how we were designed, um, to live. So Cancer, for me, I call it was like the call to return to the wild, you know, like the, the lion cub. This is, you know, we're giving you time. I got 2 years in 2016 where everything shut down, like Obviously through the treatment, I had to go through all the chemotherapy, radiotherapy, surgery, but I always felt safe. I always felt held. I always felt this, this, um, this has to be for a reason. I, I never— I don't know how to say it, no doubt from the moment it happened, I just knew something, something added up. And, and how the greatest gift for me has been that in that silence, I went back to live in my own house. At that time I had moved in with my mother, but I went back to my own house for a while and I needed the quiet because I just couldn't process and be around people. And in that quiet where my mind shut down, my body shut down, something cracked open is the only way to describe it. And I connected with this beautiful, spacious, alive, infinite, creative source, God, whatever. This just beautiful peace came over my life I had no idea what was next. I didn't— I knew, you know, but at the same time, I had never felt more peace and supported and loved and guided. And I think that's because everything— I was going so fast and my mind was so fast that I couldn't connect with that aspect of myself. So it had to be shut down for me for a long period, literally nearly 2 years. Because I had a lot of fatigue. I tried to go back to work, nope, wasn't able, tried again, nope. And I remember asking and I'd say, can I not go back? I was getting the answer, nope, you're never going back, you know. I just, there is no going back ever, isn't there? There's no going back. So that was the start of something just, and I'm only really beginning to fully appreciate it, you know, when you're going through something and at the same time it was very traumatic. So it was all going on together, you know, it wasn't all, I was sitting there going, oh, cancer is wonderful. It wasn't. It was very challenging and very difficult, but something else happened alongside. Both were happening side by side. It was all in the one. And, um, and so today, now, even as I talk about it more, I feel the gratitude for that, what I had to go through. And I've a distance from it now, um, so I will be eternally grateful. So it's changed me in every way. That was the— that was 2016. And after that, I suppose what I found the most difficult, and I think many people definitely for cancer often say it's the transition, it's the period after, because in it, in the experience, you are held in, in the sense of the system, and you're going through treatment and doctors and this. And then the first question was, most people to me, oh great, so you'll be ready to go back to work. And I used to nearly get these panic attacks when I'd hear that. Going back? Have you any idea of what I've been through? You know, and for going back into their old job may be the way for someone else, it just wasn't for me. And but I found it very challenging because I had to— I was at a point where, okay, you have a choice here, we always have a choice, and I, and I know that. And I said, what's your— are you going to choose to go back? Which I knew I couldn't. So I said, no, I'm going to choose the unknown, and I have no idea where it's this leads. I have no idea how I'm gonna make a living. I don't know anything. But I just know. So all I did was really surrender into that. I asked for help. I had no sense of where this was going. And what grabbed the first thing that got me on the path— I've never written anything. So, you know, that was not my life at all. But something about the voice wanting to come through was quite interesting, because I feel like when I went back, like I said to you at the beginning, and watched Born Free, I related to that child again now, as in I found that place in me again, that place that I disconnected from all my life. I'm back there, and now I have a means of channeling this voice that I didn't as a young child. It was just— it was— I couldn't— it was very overwhelming. So none of this was conscious, but straight after, and that period of deciding I'm taking a break at least from work I can't for a career break. A friend that I hadn't seen in— and this is the power, I believe, when we ask for help, when we surrender into this unknown, you know, this leap of faith I felt like I had to take. And I just, I asked. And, um, one day a woman, a friend, a neighbor— not a neighbor, but someone I hadn't seen in about 20 years— I happened to bump into. And I told her a bit of my story, and she said, you know, there's a lady nearby, an elderly lady running a course called The Artist's Way. It's a book by Julia Cameron. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's a book on exploring your— it's a spiritual approach to creativity, and it's helping— it's for everyone. But my first reaction was, that's not— sure, I'm not an artist, I can't do that. And she said, no, no, it's not about that, it's really about helping you get in touch with yourself, you know. It'll be a really nice small group, and you'll have time, you know, you've time now to do this. So I did, and that was the first step on a new path that just— I have been shown the step, the next step, the next step, the next step, the next step every day. But that was the very first, because I went to that course, I met the most wonderful group of women that I was in, and we used to be in her— meet in her house by the sea every week, and we worked through exercises. You do things like journaling and unconscious writing, uh, you go on an artist's date. It's like you go on a date with yourself and you sort of do something nice. So there's lots of different exercise to help you get in touch with that aspect. And it was she, that lady, after about 6 months said to me, you know, you're talking a lot when we meet about how cancer has changed your life, and all you were learning, and you know, all the good out of it and the positive. And, you know, you could really help people. Have you thought of writing anything? And I said, no, not never. And then we had a coffee, and I came home. And obviously she was sent to me, as we're always sent, or people are always sent different messengers and guides. And I came home and I just knew, get my laptop out, sat down at my laptop, and I don't know what came out, but basically I sat there for 6 months and the end, the end result is this book. Um, but really what it started as was just a way of processing, you know, what's going on here, what am I learning? But it came down, it, it literally came through me in chapters, is the only way to describe it. I just get a title and I go, okay, I have to write about that, and I'd start and Yeah, I wrote a draft of this book back in 2017, long before we entered into COVID. And what's quite interesting— sorry, now I don't know if you want to stop me and ask a question, because I'm, uh, I can just bring you— maybe just bring you up to when the book was published, how it got to that stage. Okay, so I had a draft of that book, didn't know what to do. I'd never published a book, never written a book. I found— asked a lot of people, found a self-publishing company in Galway here, went to meet the lady who owns the company, and she's great. Yeah, you, you can write, but would you think of writing fiction? So I looked at her like, fiction? It's my life story, like, what am I doing writing fiction? And I don't really understand what happened there, but I— well, I do and I don't. Um, I didn't definitely at the time, but it was obviously a timing thing. The book was not ready to be published, it was too soon. I literally just come through the experience, and it was down on paper. So I said, I don't know anything about writing fiction, but I have nothing else to do, so okay. I left her office, I drove home, and I started hearing all these little voices in my head like characters. So I went and wrote a book of fiction, and it's called The Tapestry of Life. So I self-published that first book, and I really needed to write that book because the book ended up being about 3 3 generations of women living in Galway. I picked my hometown as the place, and how their lives— they come into each other's lives over a period of 2 weeks and how they change each other. And it sort of echoes the idea of the tapestry of life. We are all essential pieces of the tapestry that makes up, you know, the universe and life. And we never know, you know, we all need each other. Who knows in the next— for that thread meets another thread and, and So that was something really, and I suppose it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about writing, it taught me a lot about publishing, it taught me a lot about the importance of community in my life and who I surround myself with, which I'd never been conscious of. So I very consciously surround myself now with people only who lift me up and are, you know, for my highest good. That's been a very big shift in my life. So that happened, and I launched that in 2019. And then I thought, okay, I'll go back to this book. And I started back into editing it and writing to publishers all over the world. And then John Hunt Publishing in the UK offered me a contract. And then we went into lockdown. So I spent 2020— you know, the timing— I spent all of 2020 editing and finishing it. And it came to another level because Gifts from the Devastation, the title— cancer was one of my devastations, but the point being is we all experienced devastation. You've experienced devastation, everyone in some form, some tougher than others, some more than others. Um, and then we all went into a collective devastation, I believe, with, with that lockdown. And, and a lot of the lessons— I've said it to so many people— I was very grateful when we went into lockdown. It didn't change my life at all. I I know for some people it was quite a dramatic and traumatic time, but I virtually had been in my own quarantine or lockdown for 2, 3, 4 years. So, you know, something in that. So that really helped me, I suppose, build some of those lessons into the book. And I, I believe there is a reason why it's being launched now and it wasn't launched 2 or 3 years ago, because I do think there's a lot of devastation in the world on many levels. So my hope is that, yeah, it can, it can help anyone maybe who's, who's going through that in their own life.

Yes. Yeah, I think that, you know, you talked about your coming into the world and being more open and being, you know, chatty and talking. And, you know, you've referenced a couple of pieces of art, and I love music and art, the way it kind of reflects life. So there's a song by a group called Earth, Wind Fire, Love, called That's the way of the world. And it talks about how we're born pure child of gold, and then the world imposes itself on us. And I don't know if this is just in Western society, or that's the only society I know of, but it's other societies too, I know. But they say you have to be something else, you have to be someone else. And also reminds me of, uh, there's an album by a group called Pink Floyd, The Wall, and the whole album is about, you know, this just poor kid that everybody's like, you have to be like this, you have to be like this. And he builds this wall around himself. And I hear you in your story, how you have to adapt to this. And there, I don't know if it's universal, because I just relate so much to your story. But I think other people, maybe they just shut down. And they're just unconscious of the fact that they're, they're not happy in this world. But it is, it's, it's, there's a lot of unhappiness. So as you were talking about that, I was like, I was right there with you understand what you're saying. But we put on, we put on a mask, and we go out and we get by and everybody assumes as long as you can function, as long as you're a cog in the wheel and you're doing your job, then everything's okay.

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian D Smith is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know People work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grief2growth.com, www.grief2growth.com, or text growth, G-R-O-W-T-H, to 31996. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grief2growth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief 2 Growth. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there.

Yeah, yeah, we are so much more than cogs in the wheel. Like, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's it. I, and I really believe whatever whatever is going on in the world, and it's pretty chaotic right now, I do believe it's part of us collectively returning to something very true in ourselves as a humanity, not just individually, because we cannot sustain— and I think the big shift— I don't know if you— I was listening to some— I listen to lots of different sort of teachers and spiritual people, astrologers and everyone, you know, anything sort of metaphysical and about life. But, you know, they talk about we're moving into the Age of Aquarius and out of the Age of Pisces right now, you know, over the coming years. And the Age of Pisces was very much the age of single rule, very male-dominated, authoritarian, you know, and the people looking up to one person. Aquarius is about each person stepping into their own sovereignty, their individuality, but being part of the whole. Like, that's unity, that we still honor and respect accept everybody's unique expression and creativity. I think that's something that has been missing. We've been encouraged to compete. Well, I was all my life, always compete, compete, compete. Um, and I've joined what's really saved every— so many things have saved me throughout, you know, and led me on my path. But in the last 6 months, I joined a course called, um, a wonderful man, he's an English man living in Ireland, Mark Ashwood, and he He's a spiritual seeker, art entrepreneur, and he's really about helping people bring their gifts to life in the world. And often, as he says, and I know it's very true, often people who are not maybe as cut out for the corporate world find it hard to make a living and bring that gift into the world. So he runs a beautiful course, um, and he has some scholarships on it as well, and it's really about helping you take that gift or idea that you have in your heart or mind and bring it to the world and how to do that, because he has all the technical skills and the business skills as well, like years. And, um, and, and become financially sovereign. That would be the hope that we move into that sort of a— and it's, it's a group I've never— the big shift I've noticed in these people is everybody, there is no competition, there's only love. It's a really loving community of everybody just wants to see each other shine and I've noticed when you start to do that, you realize, wow, I really benefit from that person as being the best they can and sharing their gift with the world, because I get the benefit of that, and vice versa. You know, why, why compete with that person and try and do better than them? I'm not them. There's nothing— that was the biggest, um, biggest thing I learned. It was like a, a moment for going, um, yeah, there is no one like— there is no one who can offer what, what I can offer, and there's no one that can offer what that person can have. Like, we are so unique. And he always says to us, you know, the market isn't saturated because you're not in it. And that, I think, is lovely. It's like, there is space. We need everyone. We need everyone shining brightly, don't we? That's, that's my vision. If, if I could hopefully translate or encourage that in people, that's my vision of each of us shining our light. I mean, what a world we'd live in, and we allowed each other to do it.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, as you talked about the Age of Aquarius, and I've heard that, and I've heard it since I was a child. I remember the Fifth Dimension, a song called The Age of Aquarius. And I'm like, yes, yes, bring it on. You know, it's like, when are we going to get there already? But as I think about that, you know, our, our individual journeys are microcosms of, I think, as our journey as mankind. So we go through similar things. And unfortunately, human beings— reason for the title of my podcast, Grief to Growth— we tend to learn through pain. And you talked about it even in your life. It's like our higher self is— it's nudging us, right? It's just sending us these little things like the car accident, you know, like things that happen to us that the kind of— it's kind of blocking our path and trying to send us another way, but we just press through. We just keep going. And I see humanity right now, and I'm wondering, and I'm hoping that all the tragedy that we see going on, all the turmoil, is going to prompt us to a tipping point point where we choose something different. And, and that's, that's what I hear. I think that you're kind of— you kind of believe that also.

Yeah, I feel that. And I, I think what it's bringing us back to, this whole idea of sovereignty that I knew nothing about, is that, you know, and they always say there is no knight on a, you know, on a horse or someone coming to save us. This is us as humanity. So like you said, the microcosmos— I was thinking about that recently, you know, going on, looking at— I'm back living with my mother in the last 2 years now, and that's been quite a full circle healing experience. And I'm going, yeah, everything that's going on in the world, sometimes it feels like it's going on under this roof. And I'm sure it is under everybody's roof because we're all— we're all another big part, sorry, of this experience for me. And I think we're seeing it play out in the collective, but I definitely have personally, is the release of trauma. So it's the big gift for me was coming back into my connection with who I really am and finding my creativity, connecting with my intuition, being in my body. And I think that's key. Everything I listen to tells me the the way we experience and process our lives as human beings is meant to be in our body. But most of us have so much trauma, a lot of the time we're up here, and I was a lot of the time up in my head navigating life in this way, and so disconnected, disconnected from others. And I see it now, I, I've released— I do a lot of work around that. And I think that is your magic, um, your magic tool almost. The more challenging, and depending on the level of trauma, but with the right support and the right practices because I'm doing it every day now. I do it with the breathwork practice. And there's a, you know, it's— what do they say? There are big traumas, but trauma can be just any emotion that was never processed fully through at any stage in your life. So the child that wasn't heard or was shut down, or— and they just stop, you know, often we act out of that trauma, don't we? Like years later, you could be 50 or— and you're still acting out of that trauma when someone says something to you. So I think that's the power. The power I'm finding— where I'm finding my power in my life is the more I'm releasing the trauma, the more I feel I'm able to come into my body, the more I really connect in. And I feel that connection to the greater universe, God. I can feel it like that life force just powering through me, which I never did. And my creativity, all of those, they're all wrapped up together. And then when I think as humans That's what we're meant to be. This is, this is the real human. I wrote a chapter at the end of the book called A New Age, A New Kind of Human. And I think that is, if you want to call the other fifth dimension, the world where we are going to create this, that, that's— I've often said that too, I hope it's going to happen. And people say, but no, it is up to us. So in my life, I have to be that. I have to be the person who's doing the work because that's what— isn't that what's happening collectively? All this trauma. I really believe this is the shadow side of humanity being exposed, and it's horrendous. And most of the time you just want to go, no, I can't look at this, I can't deal with this, like I did in my life. I did a lot of my life like that. I can't look at this, no, it's too much, it's too painful, right? Um, isn't it? And nobody tells you that it's pain. But whatever pain I had is that— I'm not saying it can always end, But you can— it being stuck in you, if there's— it, it's just, if, if you don't do some work and try to move this energy through, it can kill you. But it can move, and it can be— yes, so painful, um, isn't it? I, I mean, I, I don't think there's another way. I haven't found another way.

Um, well, talk a little bit more about what you mean by being in your body, because I've heard that before, and I think some of my listeners might have heard that before. So what does that mean? Talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, I didn't really know what that meant. And what got me back into my body, okay, the biggest way I describe it is, um, so say if you think of your attention or awareness, I was mostly— I suppose it's the movement from head to heart. And I know that sounds very— what does that mean? Him in a very physical level just by even coming into my body, sitting, grounding at a very basic— just starting out, you know, grounding your feet into the floor, like feeling your physical body. So taking your attention from your head and up there, and literally lots of practices, you know, people can do to bring you down into each level so you can start to feel. I think that's— it's really about feeling. And they always say our body is our body is really our GPS or our tool for navigating life, because we're a spirit in a body, if that's what you understand. It's what I understand in my life. So this spirit has chosen to be in this body, and it, you know, has to be in a body because we're on Earth. So how does it speak to me other than really through what the body— you know, so to me, how I see the body now is it's like my antenna into my— into the universe or source. So everything I need answers with, I find in my body. And it's all energy. So if we think of everything in life as energy, and what I'm very guided by now is, okay, so I do the exercises to sort of— could be breathwork, it could be putting my feet on the ground, going out into nature is incredibly grounding, really brings you back into your body. Breath is very powerful because breath is— breath is what keeps us alive, you know. We are so breathed, that's our life force moving through us. So I would have a lot of practices that help me just focus on the just even that, just focusing on the breath, that's being in your body because you're concentrating on the breath in your body. And as you do that, what normally happens if you're a normal human being, usually at some point some pain will come up from trauma and we'll go, okay, don't like it in the body, up again, up to my head, run around busy, and we go in, you know, back into that state, which is again very disconnected. So doing what I call trauma work alongside that is really important. Because it's very difficult to be in your body if you have all this energy. And energy is just energy stuck in the body, that's just what emotion is. So if we're not processing— and it's an ongoing, um, what would I say, practice for me, but it's a lot easier now because I've cleared a lot. But I could go out today now after this and say I have an interaction with someone on the street or someone shouted at me and I could shut down and go, oh my God, push another way and really get angry, or, you know, stuff that down. No, if I don't feel what that was like, even later, that energy starts to get stuck and it just starts there. Then I might have another interaction and I bring that memory to the next one, and then I add to it and I add to it. And we don't even know. I didn't know, but my body was very heavy. I had lots of different, um, what's the word? My body feels lighter now. I feel very grounded, but I feel lighter. You know, that feeling of— and I'm sure like when I was in deep grief after my marriage, and I mean, I was just— I felt nothing. Um, but it's— I thought, yeah, that, that, that being in the body, I think, is your key to navigating your life in a way that is right for you, not in a way that someone else tells you. Because we— if we look around the world now, like you said earlier, you know, when in the systems, or that song when they say about, um, you know, we're, say, molded or whatever into something that maybe doesn't feel right for us. Then what happens is we're disconnected from our own power. So we trust— that was the Age of Pisces. So then we look to someone to say, okay, what should I do? Because I've no— I've— and I see this in a lot of people I know right now. They're so disconnected from themselves. If someone said to them, you know, stand on your head and, you know, you'll get over COVID or something like that, they would probably do it. You know, there's, there's this sort of— and I'm not blaming people, it's just this is what is— this is the type of, yeah, this Piscean age, the systems, this totalitarian sort of, you know, authoritarian, um, but once— that's why I found the whole last 2 years much easier, because I had sort of been coming back into resonance. You know, when you talk of resonance, that's listening to your energy. So if you said something to me and I felt quite— something in my body said that's not okay, I need to trust that. We have been trained to ignore that and go 'Oh no, okay, I have to accept it. He knows more than me.' And this is about being in your body. Your body says, 'No, that is not okay for you,' because we're each— this is like being a sovereign, unique individual person with your own connection to your source. And we're all just different expressions of our source, you know, that decided— that's how I see it, that God decided to come down and play. And there's in billions of different— who's the spiritual teacher? Ram Dass says, 'Treat everyone you meet like God in drag.' And I love that because, yeah, you know, every single one of us, aren't we?

Yeah, you know, it's— you were talking about we— this whole thing's about things happening for a reason, and I truly believe that. So this morning I happened to be on my— I walk every morning, so I was on my walk and YouTube video came up, and it was about this whole thing about different types of people and how this guy, his argument is that we're— most of us are fake. So most of— most of us are fake people. We're not being our true selves. So he talked about like 5 different types of people. It's just what you were just saying, people that go to religion for their authority or to the government, and they just do whatever they tell them to do. Or people who are still listening to their parents that might be adults like we are, but our parents' voice is still in our head. Or people who it's all about whatever their peers think, they do whatever, whatever everybody around them, whatever is popular with them. Then there are people who are basically like outside the system and just don't function well because they just have given up on everything. And then he talked about a fifth type of person, which is what we're talking about, is that autonomous person who has their own personal sovereignty maturity, who says, okay, I'm, I'm going to listen to other people, their opinions are interesting, their opinions are valuable, but they don't tell me what's right for me. And I'm hoping I'm seeing this more with the, with the next generation. I have a 25-year-old daughter. So I see it more with their generation. Unfortunately, a lot of it comes from despair, because they look at the world and they say, it's just not working. So, you know, the YOLO is the big thing. Now, you only live once. So we're just going to go out and live our lives. I'm hopeful that they'll, that they'll learn to start taking some of that, that power, you know, back. And, and your story is just so, you know, it's about that. And I think our higher self— I do want to ask you this question, because, again, we're all— it's all about things happen for a reason. So I interviewed a woman on my podcast not too long ago, and her daughter was in a devastating accident that left her brain damaged and and, you know, not functioning very well. And she said, I hate when people say everything happens for a reason. She's like, I just, I don't believe that, you know, I don't totally reject that. My feeling is more like yours. So my question to you is, when did you, when did you come to this conclusion that everything happens for a reason?

And like you said, it is a little, I'm very conscious. Every time I say that, I say that always from my perspective, I can never I always make that clear to people. I'm not just casually going around telling everybody who's been through some horrendous tragedy, oh, it all happens for a reason. I don't mean it in a real, um, you know, um, trivial and a light sort of way at all. It was— I mean it in a really serious, um, in a serious way. But the way it came to me, how would I describe it? I, I can't even describe, say, when It very quickly, because nothing had made sense in my life for so long, and the diagnosis made me think all of these things are connected. Finally, I'm getting evidence that everything's connected, because I felt like I was dying inside, and I literally was. To me, cancer was creative energy, because we are— this is, this is so new to me as well, this idea of creativity. I thought creativity was about you know, people who were artists and careers as artists, and the rest of us, you know, you just got on with your job. Um, but what I understood from it is we are creative energy. That's what we come from. This is what all of the universe is. So we— that can appear in many ways, but we have to express. And so the idea that I was dying inside, and then something happens to say, yes, you are dying inside, look at— we're showing you. What's this? What, what, what is cancer other than something growing inside you, and I talked about being suppressed. So I sort of— I can just remember one day in the car, I remember taking my hands off the steering wheel going, I don't know, I just know I have to let go. And I think there is something in the letting go and not trying to figure out, because you can't figure these things out, things like that. Something just let go. And I really believe that when I let go, something greater took over, is all I can describe it. And it's sort of been rippling out in my life. My life since. It's, it's— and it's so gentle, and it's so— what do they call it— an infinite unfolding. I can't even sometimes put words on it, but I look back on a, on a day or a period, and, and I suppose I just have to keep asking myself, because I'll revert to my old habits, and something difficult happens, and I go, okay, what if I was to look like— what if I just behave like this is happening for me? If I was to believe that, even if I don't, what would, what would I do differently? Or how would way, you know, even trying to just get my— it's like they say, if you get a different perspective on a picture on the wall, what if I can just try for a moment, even if I don't believe it, just try and look at this in a different way, right? Don't have to stay there. Um, it's a very— isn't it? I don't know what the answer is. I mean, it's different for everyone. I've met people who've been through— I'm sure you have sometimes— have been through horrendous things and are still in it and very angry. And, you know, I'm not saying they shouldn't be, but you know, and then I meet others who, you know, just blow my mind at how they've come through something so difficult, right? I sort of feel there's a divine timing in everyone's life. I— like you talked about your daughter coming, and, you know, some people come and they come and they shine brightly for a short time. I've seen that with other people I met in my life. They just shone so brightly, like unbelievably so, and then they were gone. And then others— I feel it's taken me a long time to start shining my light, so I'm around here a bit longer because I wasn't shining for a long time. So, you know, I really do believe I chose this. I chose this path in this lifetime. I have no doubt. I, I, um, and I chose that there would be struggle. And I chose that because, like you said, you know, we don't— maybe, maybe some people don't have to go through pain to, to grow, but grief to growth, as you said. But I haven't met too many of them. I think anyone who's done any major growth because it's like— is it— there's a saying, it's another writer, I think Pema Chödrön, she talks about the breaking of parts. So sometimes at the breaking apart, she talks about pain, and if we don't let it break us apart, we become brittle to life, we become hard, we become— and then there's nothing, you know. But it nearly has to break us open. It's in the breaking open that we find something even more beautiful. That maybe— that I would see that, that experience was maybe the gift it was trying to give us. As hard as it was, they wanted to show us this beauty that they— um, I see, that's how I try to look at it. That, um, even in my own, like, my father passing, I go, he, he, uh, I was very close to him. I mean, he was much older and it was a natural death and everything, but it was still painful. But there was something in what I discovered as a result of his death, you know, that we never lost. By, because I know that, because I'm always, I'm always talking to him, he's always with me. And he's, um, like even the other day, just to give an example, I, I say it to people who are very skeptical, and I walk by the sea every day. And one day I was walking, and he's always with me, and I said to him, I said, Dad, just for the fun of it, will you just do something really obvious that you're here? And I was walking and walking, and then nothing. And then eventually I was close back to my car, and a bird bird just— this never happened— swooped in, literally came that close to my face and across too. And it was right up the road where I used to walk. It just went up there. Wow. Okay.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, well, you know, the thing is, I, um, and I do happen to agree with you, I'm not dogmatic about it and I can't prove it to anybody. It is a belief that everything happens for a reason. And you can look around the world and you could say, well, look what's happening, it's clearly random. And that's— and I can't argue with that from a rational point of view. But like you, I'm like, well, just try on the idea that everything happens for a reason and see how that, how that works out for you and see if it makes sense to you. And, and the older we get, I think the more we look back in life, because when it first happens to us, it's like, well, clearly this is not for a reason. Or I hear people say, I would never choose this, you know. And, and then as we get a little bit further down the road, we can say, Oh, well, now I see how this connects to that. And I'm like, I love your analogy of the tapestry. And I heard an analogy with tapestry that it took it to like another level. They're like, when you're living in this world, it's like you're looking at the backside of the tapestry. So when you look at the backside of a tapestry, it looks like just a mess of colors. It makes no sense whatsoever. But when we cross back over and we turn the tapestry over, we can see how everything is woven together in a pattern that makes and your book, you know, I just, I love when people sit down. I did this with a client where actually, I don't know if she ever write a book or not. But she just hired me, we did several sessions, she just told me her life. She's like, I'm gonna start at the beginning, I'm going to tell you my whole life story. And just her talking through her life story revealed to her how beautiful her life has been, even during all the times when she was poor. And you know, this happened and that happened. Happened, but how it tied into the next thing that came along.

Exactly. Oh, that's so beautiful. Yeah, that— even that, I hadn't thought of it that way, but that process, every time I think back now, and it's even such a joy, and I'm so grateful to even be able to talk about it here because it is that you go, wow, it's amazing really. How— yeah, if I had just went to design my life, I would say that to people, look at what happened to you in the last few weeks. If you had tried to plan that, do you think you could have done as good a up. Because, you know, often we think we know. You know, when you say someone said to you something about, but I would never have chosen this, and you know, the you down here on Earth probably wouldn't because you're limited 3D person, as they call us, with limited senses and consciousness. Of course you wouldn't, you know, because the true— to me, the true way to relating to life, it's not— we have our— it was Einstein, this is, I say, I think it was attributed to Einstein, said he said, we, um, what did he say? We have— oh my God— the rational mind is a faithful servant and the intuitive mind is a sacred gift. And we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. And I, and I— that always— that, that was the big shift for me. The mind is not where the answers are. Your mind is the tool of the intuition, which we have been taught to believe is just some Airey Fairy, in your intuition is your truth. I mean, you know, if you go against your gut instinct or your intuition— I know anyways, I suffer greatly usually, um, because we've not been—

we've—

again, it's back to the same thing. We have not been encouraged to trust our own power. And that leads to a bigger question, well, why? And to my mind is, well, if you have everybody in the planet, on the planet living according to their truth. How can you control us? And how can— we don't need controlling. But you know, that, that's a whole different— and I think that's the world that, that's the sort of world I want to live in. And the types of people and communities I'm in now, where— and I do believe we'll end up living in more sort of smaller communities again, and smaller sort of town councils, and people coming together. That the way we've been living is just and a lot of these people are not good, I'm afraid to say. Yeah, some very greedy, powerful, controlling people there who are not really about us.

There are definitely people that want to control us, some, some benevolent, some not so benevolent, you know, like, you know, our parents, our families, you know, when we start to shift, when we start to get outside of the box that we were— that they put us in They're like, what's, what's going on with you? What's wrong with you? Why are you, why are you doing this? You talked about university, you know, here, there's a huge pressure on kids to go to college when they graduate from high school. And, you know, I hear a few people finally starting to push back on this and saying, that's not for everybody. There's, there's a lot of great ways to make it, to make a living, because we unfortunately, we do have to make a living so far in this world. But there's lots of great ways to do that, that don't have to crush your soul. And you don't have to go into the corporate world. I couldn't make it in the corporate world. I just couldn't, I couldn't conform. So I got out about 30 years ago. And I felt like at the time, it was kind of like a failure, because I was like, here's where I want to be, but I can't conform enough to get there. So I've been doing my own thing for a long time. And that's, that's me, right? That's, and that's kind of like you, you said, okay, enough of this, because I know so many people and I look at them and they're, they're miserable. They're making lots of money, but they're not living the life they want to live. They're not, they're not getting to spend time with their children or their families. Um, and I was just like, I, I can't do that.

Yeah. And it does take living. That's another side to that, you know, when you say it. And a lot of people would say that to me, oh, I can't do it. And I used to think that, oh, I have a mortgage, I have this, I've got— but the minute you make the choice, and I've seen this, I call it the breadcrumb trail, you are shown every step of the way, which you are not given, you know. It would have been nice for me after cancer, someone said, 'I'm guaranteeing you in 2 years,' or whatever, right? And this will happen. No, I didn't get any of that. And I'm not saying I've reached any great level of success in terms of my old life, but in terms of me being fulfilled and living my truth, yes. Um, and I still don't know where it's going, but I've been shown every step. And I— and anything— I remember reading something about that. You're— the next step is only ever lit up for you. So where you got to keep— that's why it's so important to stay present. That's another part, another thing I've had to learn in my life is I create— our creative energy and our intention and our action is what creates our life. So if I'm out there going, I wonder now what's going to happen in 5 years, well, probably not very much, or just more of the same. So me knowing that if I'm shown the next step, I need to stay very much and, uh, and writing taught me that because you've got to stay in it. You can't just jump out and go, I want the book published now, and who's going to do— you know, you have to write it first. So you've got to really be in it. And it's, um, that was a good lesson for me.

Um, so, but we, you know, as you were saying, I was thinking about, we do that, we do that even to our kids. Like, what do you want to be when you grow up? We ask them that when they're 5 years old and they'd have no idea what's available. And, you know, and again, they graduate from college, you know, what do you— and my, my poor daughter, she's 25 and she just got her master's. She's working And I remember saying to her a few— couple years ago, I'm like, stop worrying about where you're going to be in 10 years. And you go to a job interview, where do you want to be 10 years from now? And I said, you don't even know what opportunities are out there. So, you know, just focus on the next step. And ironically, she gets her master's degree, she gets this great job. And then she's on LinkedIn, she's looking for another job, and this job comes up she's never even heard about. She didn't even know what it was. And it pays like 50% more than she's making right now. And she just started that new job on Monday. And I was— so the thing is, it's like, we don't know what's available to us. I went into engineering because I'm the kind of person, I want to plan everything. And I want to know what the next step is going to be. And I saw— I loved engineering because it's math, right? So I know what's going to happen. And I've had to learn to just let go, to take that next step and take that leap. And I ended up—

has it worked out better doing that?

I ended up going into sales. And then I ended up when I couldn't hack the corporate realm, like, I'm just gonna do my own thing. I'm gonna start my own company. And I've been doing that for like 20 years, 20 years this year. And it's worked out great, put both my girls through school, and my wife and I are, you know, to the point where we can probably retire fairly soon. And now I'm doing this. I did, I, you know, when Shayna passed away 6 and a half years ago, no clue I would be doing this. But just started doing some volunteer work. And a friend of mine said, you should take a life coaching course. I was like, I don't know why you would say that. But I did. And now I'm doing this and life coaching and, and this is like, I feel like this is what I'm here to do. So I'm kind of like you, I'm 60. So I'm just now starting to do this. But I feel like this is what I'm, what I'm here to do. And I guess I think my, our higher selves, God, universe, whatever you want to call it, gently, and sometimes not so gently, guides us into what we're supposed to be doing.

For sure, for sure. And you know, when you said that, again, that's amazing. And like, for anyone who's going, well, I don't believe that, which is absolutely fine. This is about being sovereign, as we said. So this is, this is our each our own journey. So, but at the same time, I haven't met anyone who's decided to hold that perspective in life and regretted it. And I can say for sure I haven't. So it's definitely all I would say that I've said it in the book. If you're struggling and everything you're doing is just not working out for you, why not just try it? Just, just give it a go. What have you got to lose? If life is so hard for you right now. And life was hard for me for years. It really felt this, oh my God. But I was holding on so tight. And it was what I needed to do. I'm sure I could have learned things much faster, but I didn't. And I held on. I realized how strong I am. I've got a lot of stamina. Because I would stood, you know, kept coming another thing, another thing. Now I'm here. And I generally didn't show it. That's why if I said it to people, they'd be like, what? And that takes a certain amount of energy. When you think of the life force, our kri, I always try to think of it now of our creative life force energy. What could you be doing with that if you weren't using it to sort of just, you know, um, in order to keep this, uh, image up all the time? And I, I believe there's a breaking point. Well, I think there's a breaking point in the world right now, definitely. And I think that is this breaking of the human spirit. There is a point where humanity, it's just God, Universe, whatever is going, no, this ain't— this, this is not what you're here to do, and this is not who you are. You're not slaves or robots. You are magical creatures here to do amazing things, aren't we? Um, and it's happening.

Yeah, I, I believe it's our collective consciousness. I believe that we have it. We have an individual consciousness, and there's a collective consciousness, and that's, that's what everything is, and it's all part of that. So as you talked about us creating, we are co-creators of the world that we live in. So when we look outside in the world and we don't like what we see, that's, that's a reflection of our inner turmoil that's going on. And, you know, hopefully we'll— and I, hopefully we'll get to a tipping point where enough people believe like you and I do. And I believe that's what we're here for. I believe we're here to, to encourage that. So I love that you stepping into your, into your role. And, you know, it's funny, I was talking with someone on an interview, and we're saying, we're talking about free will and choice. And I jokingly said, I don't have a choice. And she goes, well, you do. And I'm like, well, I do and I don't. It's like, because it's my nature. So I might have a choice, but I really don't. And I think it's the same thing with you. It's like your, your higher self is saying, okay, Céline, this is, it's time. It's time for you.

Yeah. And it's the higher choice. I mean, yes, you know, and it's funny, I would never have used those words, but dislikes. I don't know if you feel it, but I— and I know that's why there's a timing around my book, and I know we have to be ready. And often you think you're ready before you're ready. Like, I used to think, why didn't the book come out 3 years ago? And I remember I was working with the spiritual healer at the time, a chiropractor, beautiful woman. She called— but she calls herself, or she is, a spiritual midwife, and I love that term. And I worked with her throughout cancer treatment, and she helped me basically birth this new version of me into the world. Like, I couldn't have done it without her. And that's how I got the title the book, because every time we work together, at the end of the session, um, she'd say to me, let's, um, we'll ask that you integrate the learnings of this experience and that you carry only the gifts. And, and that was just beautiful. I just thought, yeah, that's what you want to do. Whatever it's been, that has difficult and traumatic, that we learn and we integrate it. We leave behind the trauma and all the other aspects of it, and we just carry the gifts, and we can share that with the world. Because you can't share it if you're stuck I was stuck in trauma for years, you know, then, then something comes alive. And it's like, this, this is the gift, like what you're doing for the world now is like, you know, you can't put a value on that. It's amazing.

You know, it's funny, because right before you, you were talking, you mentioned the Einstein quote, I was looking through the notes that you'd given me. And I just read that. And then I was just reading the quote that you had read from your chiropractor. Let's ask that you carry, right? That you carry only the gifts that of the devastation.

Yeah.

And I say something similar to people I'm working with them, like, don't waste the pain. You know, you've gone through the pain, you can hold on to the pain, you can hold on to the trauma. Or you can turn that in, even if you don't believe it was a gift. And I don't believe my daughter passing away was a gift. So we use this language, people misunderstand it sometimes. Doesn't mean that that was a gift, but it means I can turn that into something else. And that's my choice. Choice. So you can choose to believe that everything happens for a reason, which I do. Or you can choose— you can make it into a reason. You can, you can make that your reason for something else. It can inspire you to do something else. And yeah, we have this tendency to want to go back to what we were before. Like you said, people, when are you going to get back to work, Celine? When, you know, when are we going to get back to the way things were before COVID That's wasting the pain. You know, that's not It's that, yeah, learning.

I love that. Yeah, I love that. Wasting the Pain. Exactly. And, you know, and I even in saying that title, I wrestled with for a while because I knew putting it out there, people might go, oh my God, like, that's a bit devastation and gift together. Um, and I'm not saying cancer was a gift, but there have been other gifts that have come as a result of it. And the gift was in finding who I am and getting in touch with, you know, I, I wouldn't change one moment but that's just of my experience. I wouldn't want to go through it ever again. But you know, all you can do— I— that's how I felt. I was very careful in how I wrote. I said, here's all I'm doing here is sharing a perspective, I'm sharing experience, I'm sharing a story. It has changed me for the better, it has made my life worth living, it has given me something beyond my wildest dreams. And if it can do that for one person who reads it, that's what I wish. But I'm not saying this this is the way for everyone. Yeah. Um, and there's a lot of work in it too. Like you said, it's not, it's not, um, I developed, and it's at the back end, I'm going to develop it more. One of the later chapters is about co-creating your life. And I developed because I trained as a life coach as well, but I haven't really got into using it. But I might work more. I like to work maybe more as a guide, or maybe with people who've been through cancer, or maybe some other traumas. I'm not sure yet. But one of the tools that I, um, and you know the way they do the Wheel of Life and coaching. Well, I developed this one, it's called Inside Out Living, and it's basically a wheel, and on it I've mapped sort of 10 aspects of your life that you do have, um, let's say control or power over— this may be a better word— and you basically— so everything from boundaries to, um, oh, I had them all written down. There are so many of them. There's your boundaries, um, your values, your intuition, your creativity, your belief, gratitude, emotionally, how you process your emotions, your self-care. So there's a lot of we do have, even just to take it into more practical terms, and I talk through it and I get people say score yourself now, and obviously like any wheel it'll probably look, you know, maybe not look too good as a whole wheel, and then start working towards— because they were all aspects of my life I had to work on. It wasn't like this big aha moment, I found God and everything's wonderful. It wasn't that. Like, it was— I was still in the— I had just taken a leap over a cliff and I I was like, oh my God, what's going on? So you have to, don't you? You have to. I had to develop a lot of practices and tools, and yeah, and I still do, and do a lot of work to sort of keep processing the emotion, keep, you know, conscious of my beliefs, not going back to old patterns. So there are things as well, even if you don't want to take that bigger picture, whatever that view of life is happening for me, okay, but do you want to find a way of living life that maybe is a little bit easier for you to— that gives you some sense of participation in it. You're not just a spectator, you know, the way they often say, like, do you want to be a spectator in your own life? Or do you want to get in the driving seat? I mean, I prefer to be in the driving seat.

Yeah, I do want to— we're running out of time. But I want to just finish this point up, because I think it's really, really important. This idea that when we say that everything happens for a reason can lead to what's called— I call spiritual bypassing. I'm hearing that term more and more. And I'm glad to hear people saying that. Because it can be used to minimize the trauma, to minimize the pain, to escape. And a friend of mine who had a near-death experience and went through a lot of trauma, she just wrote something on Facebook yesterday that was really beautiful about— we need to pull back from that too. We don't, we don't mean that the pain is not— the pain isn't real. We don't mean there's not real devastation in the world.

Yeah.

And even someone like you or I that might believe this, when we're going through we're probably not going to sit there and go, yeah, I'm really glad that I have cancer. I'm really glad that my loved one passed away in a car accident. I know this is for my higher good. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to grieve. We're not saying that at all.

Right? No. And I make that very clear in the book. Absolutely not. That's why I put the word devastation in, because it's not, it's to try and not diminish the horrendous, you know, devastations people go through, you know, I think all we're trying to say, or all I'm trying to say, is here is a perspective, and here is someone who is— this is what helped me come through this. It still was so difficult, and I share the things I did going through it. So it wasn't like bang, it was a gift, not at all. Um, but as a result of going through it and feeling the pain and doing that work and the hard stuff, you know, nothing worse than— nothing— we don't say nothing worse, as anyone— I don't know if you've noticed it, but there's nothing harder than sitting with the pain. Even now, there's days when something comes up, and we all do it, distract. Could be just some old uncomfortable emotion. And I literally have to sometimes just haul myself over and sit down and go, you're going nowhere till you feel this. And I, I've worked with someone, and I do it all the time with lots of different teachers, and they literally would just guide you in through your breath and just feel it. And the big one— sorry, just one thing on that, because I think I used to fear, and I think a lot of people do, is that if they go into their pain, they'll get lost in it and they'll never come out and they will die. And I used to feel that, um, it isn't the case. But you have to— the bit what's really helped me is, and someone said it to me, is let go of the story. Because the minute you start to feed it and you go into the story, it starts to get bigger again, you know. It's not moving. It's, it's, um, it's very difficult often not to do that. But this, this practice, anyways, I was doing, she helps you observe and just feel it. It's energy. Just see it's energy. It wants to leave you. It wants to leave you. It doesn't want you to be like, you know, in this pain anymore. It literally, it's the emotion and the energy from an experience that was devastating. But like you said, is it your pain? What is it? Don't let your pain—

you would have—

don't waste the pain. Yeah, yeah. And let it, let it— yeah. Yeah.

You know, I had, I had someone say to me once, I'm scared if I start crying, I'll never stop. And I'm like, believe me, you will. There's something about the body. But as you that, that experience, that pain, it wants to be processed. And I think crying is a beautiful thing. I've been working— I've worked with people, they're like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm crying. I'm like, I'm not sorry that you're crying. This is— you need to, you need to let that go through you. That's, that's, that's part of the process. And every time you cry, you feel better. You know, it's like, absolutely, you always feel better after you cry. So why not?

Yeah, I just— the definitely thing that has helped me is not to go back back into the story. As in, say I cry and I feel something, and then I talk to someone on the phone and I go, oh my God, I was— I, I let all that pain go, but it was to do with— and I go back into the story and I create the energy again. That was something I didn't know, and I have to, because it's very tempting when you're feeling it. I don't want to feel this, so I'm going to blame someone, and it's the project out. Um, so that— but that, that's a very powerful practice for anyone someone who's trying to process. But I know there's lots of ways you can do it, but— and we need help. I, and I needed a lot of help. I'm not here saying any of this that I did on my own. I had such— I, luckily enough, I had no issue with asking for help. I just kept asking people for help all the time. Support, support. We need each other, you know, we really do, don't we?

Yeah, we do. We're not meant to do this alone. Um, we're not— we, we are connected and we're designed to be connected and and we don't do well alone. Celine, I'm gonna, uh, I hate to end this, but, uh, I have to try to kind of keep it to an hour because people have short attention spans, frankly.

Sure.

It's been really, really great, uh, meeting you. I want to give the name of your book again, please, so people— and tell people where they can find it. Sure.

I'll just show that picture, but they can see it's Gifts from the Devastation: What Cancer Taught Me About life. And just that people also have a website, selenodonovan.com. I also have a Linktree, if people are familiar with going into that Linktree, Selenodonovan, and all my links are on that because I have a YouTube channel as well. Awesome. Social media. Yeah. So yeah, it'd be nice to connect on, uh, it's, uh, on YouTube as well as if you're, uh, the interview honors. But I recorded a lot. I mean, I probably I narrated and recorded an audiobook version of the book separate to the publisher because I felt something very— it was another layer of processing, I have to say, or of, um, deepening the lesson. Because it was very interesting, I narrated it at home and I was using my voice, and my story always goes back to my voice. So I've narrated and recorded it, and it's being mastered at the moment. So that's available as well for people who may not— you know, a lot of people sometimes don't have the time or want to read, and they'd like maybe to walk and listen. So, um, but all of those are on my website or Linktree, or they can connect on YouTube, um, as well. But if you go to my Linktree, you'll get all the links. It's probably the easiest.

You know, I— as you held up the book, the COVID reminded me of Ukraine. That is, um, yeah. Is that a sunflower?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, very much.

Yeah, yeah.

Wow.

Well, I like the sunflower Yeah, because it's one thing about the sunflower, just to say, is it grows towards the light. It likes to face the light. And I thought, that's nice. That's what I need to remember in life.

I love that cover. Well, again, so good. So good to meet you. So enjoy the rest of your day, and we'll talk soon.

You too. Thank you so much, Brian. Really.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and we'll come back for future episodes. Episodes. Brian D Smith's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to growth For more about Brian D Smith and Grief 2 Growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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