On Second Thought Maybe I Can - Debbie Weiss EP 419

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, welcome to Grief 2 Growth. I'm your host, Brian D Smith. And whether this is your first time tuning in, or you're a longtime listener, I'm so glad that you're here. The show's about navigating the toughest parts of life, like grief and loss and personal transformation, while we explore the bigger questions of who we are, why we're here, and where we're going. Today, we have a truly inspiring guest with us. Her name is Debbie Weiss. Debbie's someone who knows what it's like to face life's toughest challenges and still chase your dreams. With over 60 years of experience and resilience and reinvention, she has lived through caregiving, grief, and personal transformation, emerging stronger and more determined than ever. She is the bestselling author of On Second Thought, Maybe I Can— I love that title— and co-author of the Amazon bestseller, uh, Heart Whispers. Her latest book, The Sprinkle Effect: A Guide to Living a More Colorful Fulfilling Life is all about breaking free from limitations and embracing a brighter future. Beyond writing, Debbie is a Canfield Certified Trainer in the Success Principles, an entrepreneur, an inspirational speaker, a dedicated family caregiver, and the host of the Maybe I Can podcast. So in today's conversation, we're going to dive deep into the unique challenges of being a caregiver, whether it's for a spouse, a parent, or a child. We talk about how anticipatory grief affects us before our loved ones even pass. We'll talk about the guilt and emotional complexity that can follow after loss. We talk about her writing her memoir while her husband was dying, and it became an unexpected lifeline. We talk about the power of resilience and shifting from a victim mentality to a mindset of possibility. So Debbie's journey is proof that even in the darkest moments, there's still room for hope, for healing, and for growth. So if you've ever felt stuck or in grief and stuck in grief, or wondered how to move forward, you really won't want to miss this conversation. So with that, I'd like to welcome to the podcast Debbie Weiss.

Oh, Brian, thank you so much for having me. And just listening to that introduction is like, oh yeah, wow, I did do that, and that has been my life.

Yeah, absolutely. I, again, I said I love the title. I love the title of both your books, but I really like the title, you know, Maybe I Can, because I think we all, we've hit that point, right, when we go through something so devastating that we couldn't even imagine that it could happen, and then we get through it. So tell us about— first of all, I always like to start off, tell us about your loved one, tell us about your husband.

So my husband Gary, he passed away a little over 2 years ago now. And, you know, we were married for almost 30 years. We worked together for over 20 years. And so we were, you know, together 24/7. And just like any couple, we've certainly been through our ups and downs. And the last several years of his life, he really struggled with mental illness besides, uh, a lot of different types of physical illness. And even though his passing was expected because 6 months prior he had received out of the blue, unrelated to any of his other physical problems, he had received a terminal blood cancer diagnosis. This. Even when you think you're prepared, you're not.

Yeah. Yeah. So you were together for quite a while. You said you worked together 24/7. What was, what was the business you were doing?

So I am an insurance agent. I have my own insurance agency. And he and I came from two completely separate fields and careers. We were only married for a year. We moved from New York to New Jersey. And even though it's neighboring states, where we lived in Long Island and where we moved to in New Jersey is a part of New Jersey that's much more rural, uh, than what we were used to. So we kind of turned our lives upside down and then opened up this agency where we had no clue what we were doing. No clue. And, uh, the first 2 years he probably quit or I fired him about 6 times. Because, you know, our marriage was more important. And the stress of everything, you know, there was— everything was new. Everything— we had no idea what the heck we were doing. We had quotas over our heads. Life was extremely stressful. And we didn't know how to work together. You know, and in the end, we figured it out. We, uh, we would each say, go to, go to your room. We had, you know, each had our own offices on, I mean, it was a small office, but on opposite sides of our main office. Mm-hmm. And you know, that's what it was. Go to your room. And eventually we figured out each of our own niches in the business. And so that worked out.

Yeah.

You know, we did, we did have our moments, but, uh, it worked out and it wound up to be the best thing that we ever did because because we made that move. I, and I will get to it, but I was a caregiver to my dad for 30 years.

Oh, wow.

And then our oldest son, when he was born at 2, was diagnosed on the autism spectrum. So it gave us the freedom to be there for our family members. Okay, you know, and not have the regular boss or schedule, you know, hanging over your head.

Right. So you were the caregiver for your father as well as your son. I don't know how much, how much care he needed because the spectrum is pretty broad.

Exactly. So yes, my father had a massive stroke at 45, the day after I graduated from high school. He survived. Thankfully, but he was permanently disabled. He lost, uh, the use of his left arm and, uh, he was paralyzed but did learn, uh, for a while to be able to walk with a, uh, a four-prong cane.

Mm-hmm.

But could never work again. And at the time he had the stroke, my parents had been having marital problems. And so once my dad had gone through the first couple of years after the stroke and you know, medicine was a lot different. This was 1981, so a lot different than it is today. My mother made the decision to get divorced. And so then that kind of made me in charge. And I don't think that's what she intended, especially at such a young age. I have one brother who's 4 years younger. So at the time I was 17 when my father had the stroke, he's 13. And when I really stepped in, uh, full-time to his role of caregiver. It was right after I graduated college, so I was 21. And, um, even though he never lived with me, everything about his life was my responsibility. His healthcare, his finances, which were an issue, where he lived, uh, you know, bringing him food even though he lived in facilities where there were meals, but you still had to stock a kitchen. Just anything and everything— transportation, anything and everything that you can think of. I was his lifeline, and it was an awful lot to be in your early 20s. And I don't want to say be saddled with that because I did not feel that way initially, but it was very different than what were going on in my, my friends' lives, right?

Well, you know, I understand a little bit about that because my wife was a caregiver for her mother, but we were in our 50s at the time, and, and, uh, you know, our kids were out of the house pretty much, stuff, you know, stuff like that. So at that early of an age and for that long a period of time, and you said you didn't want to feel besaddled with that initially, but I know being a caregiver for someone can wear on you over, over time. So what was that like for you?

Oh, yeah. I think initially I almost was proud that I was doing this for my dad.

Sure.

You know, I was Daddy's little girl. He was, you know, everything to me. And as a child, I lacked self-confidence. I would never speak up. I was afraid of being judged. I've always struggled with my weight. And so from a very early age, it was obvious that I was being judged by adults and kids. Alike. And so I was always trying to hide myself. But when I had to step into the role of caregiver, I could not let my dad down because of my insecurities. So I had to learn to advocate on his behalf.

Yeah.

So it, it really was the start of me becoming who I am today. So initially, it was a bit empowering. But over time, it was draining. And it wore on me. And I lost patience with him. And I did, I felt like, why me? I felt I had definitely had such a victim mentality. Why is this my burden? Why is this, you know, my life really? Because when Like when we moved to New Jersey, well, I had to figure out where was my dad gonna go. For a while, he stayed on Long Island and I commuted back and forth to see him, but that long, you know, long-term was not a solution. And back in those days, the type of— he was living in an independent facility at the time, and those types of facilities were very few and far between, not like today where there are a lot more of them. So it was, It was very, very difficult. Over time, I resented it. I mean, I knew it wasn't his fault. Obviously, he didn't want to have a stroke. He didn't, you know, want me to have this burden. But I did. I grew to resent it. And, you know, the more I got into my life with other pressures and stresses that come with life, this was just one more thing that really just weighed me down. And I was just in, I think, automatic pilot mode and just kind of getting up every day, trudging through, doing what I had to, figuring out, okay, what do I need for my dad? What do I need for the office? What do I need for the kids? What do I need for everyone? And just dropping into bed every day, every night, and just ruminating over, oh, gosh, what's tomorrow going to bring?

Yes. And, and you've been a caregiver for both a parent, a spouse, and a child. Did you ever think like, wow, and I think you just kind of said this, why me? Why, why do I have to keep going through this? I would imagine that would be overwhelming.

It was. And even my, my friends You know, I used to think, okay, it's just me, but my friends would call me and be like, okay, what happened today? What's the story? You know? And they would kind of like validate that, yes, your life is more burdened, more difficult than ours. And not that there should be a comparison game, because believe me, I know I could find millions and millions of people Right? What is that? If you put all your problems in, you know, you'd always pick your own. So I am not saying that. I'm just, I'm just saying that in my little circle, it felt like every day with in my life was, was some kind of mini disaster problem fire that I needed to put out on a regular basis.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. We say things like we're not supposed to compare griefs and You know, we all know that intellectually that's probably true, but we can look at certain people's lives and say, yeah, that seems to be a lot. You know, I— someone— I've talked to someone who's like, they lost a child, they went through a divorce, the house burned down like twice. I mean, we— yeah. And I— and I— because of what I do, I, I talk to people that go through some of the extremes. And so, but what we can learn from looking at people that go through the streams is that we all, we all have troubles, as you said. We all have, we all have burdens and we can't really necessarily directly compare them, but what we can do is we can learn again from, from people that are— there are examples that are going through this from different levels. And so what can people— because I know you talk about shifting from a victim mindset to a possibility mindset. How does that work? How do we do that?

Good question. I didn't even know what mindset or the whole concept of that meant. And when I turned 50, my dad had passed away about a year before. And let me just say that my oldest son— so I have two sons. My oldest son that was diagnosed on the spectrum, he is the term high functioning. He actually now, years later, they said he wasn't on the spectrum, but he has all these other diagnoses. Diagnoses. He has mental illness diagnoses. Like, in my mind, I don't care what you call it. I don't care what acronym. I don't care what the letters are. It's really, you know, how it presents. And now he's almost 24. I had my children late in life. That was another, another whole, uh, little mini saga. But, um, at the time, you know, he still is It's a constant worry. It's a constant battle. So just like autism is a spectrum, because I have a friend who has a severely autistic child and her, what she goes through and what I go, they're completely different. You know, my son was, you know, mainstreamed, but that brought a lot of bullying, a lot of Oh, just, just so much. And so at the time when I turned 50, my son was probably, oh, I don't know, 13 maybe. And I also, like I said, I have a younger son and all parents know what it's like to just, I don't want to say just be a parent, but that alone, right? I mean, you're giving yourself over usually to to your children, your time and your energy and all of that. So anyhow, when I turned 50, I was definitely in the thick of it, even though my dad had passed away. And my friend said, oh, we are going away for a weekend to celebrate your birthday. I said, go away. I can't leave. I can't leave these people. They're not going to know what to do for 48 hours without me. You know, I was like, you know, the air traffic controller. Every morning I tell everyone where they need to go, and I'd have to text them and remind them they all had ADHD and, like, you know, what are they going to do without me? And they insisted because I have wonderful friends. And we went away for a weekend to Bermuda. And it was and still is the best 48 hours that I've ever had in my life because it was the first time, and I didn't realize it until then, in my adult life that the only person I had to worry about was myself. And when someone said, what do you want to do for dinner? Or what do you want to do tomorrow? I was, like, looking over my shoulder, like, are they talking to me? I don't even know what I want. And through all of the laughter and the conversation, I realized I had no idea who I was. I want to say I lost myself, but I never had a chance to find myself. Because from such a young age, I was dealing with everybody else's issues and lives instead of my own. I was just really there for everyone else, and I had never shown up for myself. I didn't know what showing up for myself looked like. I had no idea. I just know that when I came back from that trip, I really started thinking about my mortality. And it was something about the number 50. And how could I have gotten here so quickly? Because, you know, as you get older, it goes by faster. And I didn't want to be that person who got to the end of their lives and looked back with that regret of what I didn't do, what I didn't have the courage to try. And I didn't know. I was always a scaredy cat and kind of still am. I think of myself that way. So I had no idea what that was. I never wanted to write a book. I never wanted to— I don't know. I had no— I hate to say it. I had no specific aspirations or dreams.

Mm-hmm.

So I didn't know what that meant. But that kind of started my journey, which I'm still on and, and will be on for the rest of my life of figuring out, well, what do I want? And how do I make that happen?

Yeah. And then so how do you balance that? I love— I appreciate you sharing that, you know, because that like, okay, I'm living for everybody else. And then you go and you have this, this like magical weekend. You realize you can live for yourself, but you still have got these caregiving responsibilities. So how do you balance those things? Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

You have to make yourself a priority. And that is when I really learned that self-care is not selfish. I thought, like many of us, the myth that it is selfish. How can I worry about myself when I've got everybody else to worry about? And when I came back, I said, all right, the first thing I'm going to do is prioritize my health, because if I don't do that, then I'm not going to get to have the chance to figure all these things out. Right. This is affecting my longevity. And so, like I said earlier, I've always had an issue with my weight. I have gained and lost, you know, just like everybody who's had that, £1,000 a million times, done all the things, blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know what, I'm going to go back to Weight Watchers for the umpteenth time because I've tried every diet. And for me, that was the most realistic. But this time, and I didn't know that I was— I didn't consciously know that I was doing something. I just thought to myself, well, let's see, how has this worked for you in the past? Not so well. Yeah, I've lost, but then I gain it back the second that I go off. I got to do something different. And I thought to myself, instead of doing what I always do, which is say to myself, okay, I'm joining now. In 3 months, I want to lose 25 pounds. And by the summer and by my birthday and kind of like if I don't hit those benchmarks, it was a failure, right? Or every week that you go to get weighed, you can't believe it. I was so good this week and I gained a pound. I might as well just throw in the towel.

Right.

I said, you know what? It doesn't matter how long it takes because I'm never getting off this, some version of paying attention, right? Of being aware. So if it takes 10 years to lose 100 pounds, which is what I needed to lose at that time, it doesn't matter. And I have to forget the perfectionist, and I have to forget the due dates and all of those things. And I was changing my mindset, but I didn't know that it had a name.

Right.

And so I just started small because I wasn't really feeling like dieting, to be honest. And I just said, my goal is to show up to a Weight Watchers meeting because everything was in person then, every week. That's it. No other goal. No other, what am I gonna eat? What's my exercise? How much water? All the other things. I don't care. Hmm. I'm just gonna go because just going was a big deal cuz it's hard to go when you're not losing cuz it's embarrassing to get on a scale in front of somebody. But I didn't care. And that's what I did for a couple of months. And then after that I added another little thing and another little thing and 3 years later, even maybe a little more, I had lost 90 pounds. And that was about 8 years ago.

Wow.

And so for the first time in my life, I've— yeah, I've fluctuated a little bit, but I've been able to maintain that weight loss for the most part. And that's the first time in my life that that ever happened. And when I realized, okay, look, that kind of worked. Let me see where else I can apply this idea. And then I started to listen to podcasts, and I listened to a woman who had lost weight, and she had also been in financial difficulty, which I was in, and she got out of that. And I started listening to her. And I remember I took a leap and spent like $1,200, which was ridiculous when I didn't have any money, to take one one of her courses, and I thought she's going to give me the answers. That $1,200 is going to be the best $1,200 because she's going to tell me what to do and how to maintain this weight loss and how to get out of debt and make my life wonderful. And when I started the course, I'm like annoyed because she's not telling me. She's asking me questions that I should be asking of myself. This was a group course. I'm saying she's asking me, but, you know, it was, it was a recorded video thing. I wasn't having a personal conversation with her. And it took me a while and took me a while to kind of get rid of my annoyance because having that buyer's regret, like, oh my gosh, I needed that $1,200 to realize that she was just giving me the tools that every, every change, every everything had to be unique to me. And I had to answer those questions because her answer and your answer and each of our answers would be different. And that's when I started to— and I always hated the term "do the work," but I don't know how else to say it. Yeah, that's what I did. I started really trying to understand myself. You know, I remember one of the things that I found so overwhelming was describe your perfect day. My perfect day? I don't know. What's your perfect life? I don't know. I never thought about that. I, like I said, I had no particular dreams. And when I started to explore that, it kind of like opened up a possibility of— and this actually is not why I named my book that, this, but it was like, well, wait a second, maybe I can. Maybe I can have this life. And for me, I'm a CPA. That was my first career. Like, I was a little black and white thinker. I thought, okay, now I get it. I didn't know what direction I was moving in, so I wasn't moving in any direction. If I can say this is the life I desire, here's where I am today. Now I just have to figure out what steps do I need to take to get from A to B. And for me, in the way I thought, that gave me a lot of clarity. And, and that's really how My whole journey has begun.

Yeah, that's awesome. Thanks for, thanks for sharing that. And, you know, it's funny, we hesitate to say things like doing the work because we don't want to, we don't want to feel like life is work. But it is, it is work. It is, it is a process. It's a practice. It's a mindset, you know, however you want to term it. And, you know, it's really interesting because as you're telling that, I'm like, you're— we look for answers outside of ourselves. We'd like, we'll go to, we'll go find an expert, we'll go find a guru, we'll go find a program, we'll go find you know, whatever. But as I've been doing this work myself, I realized that I don't have the answers for my clients. The answers— what we can do is help them pull the answers out for themselves, ask some of those questions that we don't— we never may ask of ourselves otherwise. Like, what's a perfect day for me? Now, you said that that wasn't why you named your book Maybe I Can. So why did you name your book that?

Yeah, so it's on second thought, Maybe I Can. And the reason is, like I said, I've been a scaredy cat all my life. So I would not really like to take any risk. And so I'm not just talking about being afraid of monsters under my bed and spiders and all those normal things. If someone said to me, why don't we— do you want to learn to ski? No, no, I can't do that. You want to learn to, you know, I don't know, do scrapbooking? No, I'm not creative. No, I'm not crafty. Nope, nope. No, can't do that. Can't do that. And so for anything, that was always my response. And what I've realized in this journey is, well, wait a second. That still might be my first reaction. But if I take a step back and say, on second thought, maybe I can do that. Like, I'm not going to know if I can do that until I try. And for the record, I cannot ski, and I'm okay with that. But now I know.

Right.

And this is how I began to discover things about myself that I had no idea existed because I never allowed myself to take the next step. It was always like, you know, it's fear. It was a protection mechanism. I'll just stay in my little box of comfort. And I'm good. And, you know, I've now learned that living is stepping out of that comfort zone, even though it is so darn hard, and it's still hard. But I've seen that that's where you get the growth. That's where you discover that you can write a book that you never even dreamt in a million years that you would do or you wanted to do. And that's only because I said, well, wait a second, maybe I can. Who knows? I don't know if I don't try.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny. Life is— life is a risk, you know, and I'm a very risk-averse person. Also, you're CPA. I'm an engineer. And so we want to manage the risks and we want to say, you know, I don't want to do that because something bad might happen. And it's, you know, other people— some people are personified. It's like, yeah, let's just try it. You know, and I think the, I think the secret is being somewhere in between. I'm, I'm never going to be that person that I'm never going to go skydiving. It's just not going to happen. But I have been scuba diving, um, and I did that because I was with the company and my, my boss was an avid scuba diver. He loved it and he basically made us all try it. And I've realized I loved it, but I would have never done that if I hadn't been put in that situation.

Exactly. Oh my goodness. I can't, I can't, you know, um, when I trace my steps back a little bit, I was involved in this organization for many, many years in every capacity except for president, because the president had to speak in public to about 150 people. I'm like, yeah, I'm not doing that. Mm-hmm. So I would just keep being vice president. I'll be treasurer again, whatever it was. Like, I would stay involved. And when the time came and I really had to, you know, make the decision, I remember saying to Gary, what should I do? And I would, you know, I had this argument, oh, but if I don't do it, am I gonna really regret it? Blah, blah, blah. And Gary hated that I, I was like a volunteeraholic. And so he was always annoyed whenever I was like, agree to do something else. And he said, I think you should do it because, you know, deep down you really want to do it. And if you don't, you will regret it. And the fact that he kind of pushed me over the edge because I knew there— there's never been a time where he said, yeah, I think you should volunteer.

Mm-hmm.

And I did that. And I Oh my goodness. I can't even— I don't even know how I got up there and spoke. I sat in the audience before they introduced me, and I was thinking, you know, about my escape plan and how I could just text the person on the podium and say, oh, sorry, I got really sick and I had to leave. My speech is up there. Can you just read it? And I didn't do that. And I got up there and I started talking, and they laughed when they were supposed to laugh. And I was telling this story that I had practiced a million times, and I didn't get emotional. It was actually about my father. And when I was in that moment, the emotion hit me, the whole impact. And I got emotional, and I had to take a second, and everybody, you know, it was obvious. But I looked out into the audience, and I saw every single person looking at me. They weren't looking at their phone or, you know, looking down like they were engaged. And I also saw some people's eyes glistening. And I thought, wow, this is amazing. Because if by speaking my experience, because that's all I was telling was my experience, that's what got people. If that is a way to connect with other people and share what I've learned. It's incredible. And I want more of this.

Wow. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah, that's the thing. You know, we are the, we are the best experts on ourselves, right? So we might feel like I have nothing to say to someone, you know, but you get up there, you tell your story, you tell it in a heartfelt way, and people connect with that. And I love the fact you did that, and then, then you want more of it. Um, let's talk about caregiving for a while, because a lot of us here either have been or will be caregivers. Um, and we're, uh, our generation, sometimes they call like the sandwich generation, where we're taking care of our kids at the same time we're taking care of our parents. And you've taken care of a child, a parent, and a spouse. So how does it— how did those experiences differ for you?

Oh, definitely very different. My dad, you know, that was my first experience with caregiving. I think, you know, like you said earlier, when you're in your 40s and 50s, you expect to be your parents' caregiver. I don't want to say expect, but it's not unusual, right?

You know, it's a good likelihood that's coming up. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So at that age, I think the fact that I did it for so long of a period of time made it incredibly taxing. With my son, if you're a parent, that kind of love is different. And I think that's what it really comes down to. Your relationship with each person is different. It's a different type of love to a parent, to a child, and to a spouse. And that really impacted— I don't think anything could have touched me any more than watching my son suffer. It's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. And I would have and still would do anything to stop that and to help him. And actually, now it's another story, but I think I've done too much and not let him take those— some of the falls that he needs to take on his own. With your spouse, it's— I think in all the ways, there's that— for me, looking back, there's that anticipatory grief, or that grief that you're feeling. I lost my father. Like, I— my father was alive. But I lost my father. I never realized that I was also grieving the fact that even though, like I said, my dad was still here on Earth, he was not the same dad he was. We, we switched positions. I did not have my father in my 20s. And I don't want to say, you know, it's not that Sam is not the son that I want, because it's not like that. But when you find out, you realize, oh, his life is not going to be the vision that I had. That doesn't mean it's not going to be great, but it's not what I would have hoped for. Right. And so you have that kind of grief that is uncomfortable to admit. And then with my husband, I lost my partner. I lost my partner. He was still here. He also not the same person. He also struggled, like I said earlier, with mental illness. That, um, that's a whole other conversation and really the toughest thing that I've had to deal with in all of my caregiving.

Mm-hmm.

And he was gone. And not only was he gone, because specifically, I believe, of the mental illness, he was not easy to take care of.

Right. Yeah.

And, um, it was a very unhappy household.

Yeah. I think mental illness can be harder to deal with than physical illness. We all—

totally.

Um, I have mental in my family, and we see someone, they've got— they've— they're missing a leg or they have cancer, we know, okay, well, they can't walk because they don't have a leg. When a person has a mental disability, it's harder for us to, to relate to. And that— I, I understand why you might say that would be something really difficult, and I really appreciate you sharing that and being so vulnerable. Because grief, I believe, is the loss of what we expected or what we wanted. It doesn't necessarily mean the loss of a, of a life. And when we talk about anticipatory grief, people think of that as like, oh, I know this person is going to die, therefore I'm grieving their their death, but there's really that loss of that relationship. Your father's not your father anymore. Your spouse is now— you know, you're not— you don't expect to care for your spouse at, at that age. Your son's not going to have the life that you anticipated, or that you might have— if you got to sit down on a piece of paper and write out the perfect life, it wouldn't be that life. And that's a very real form of grief that you're going through while they're— the person's still here. I think it's really— I appreciate you sharing, like I said, because I think it's important for people to understand that, because sometimes people have that feeling. They're like, I don't know what this is, because they're still here, but they're really not.

No, they're not. And I think guilt comes with that too.

Yeah, yeah. Selfish. Yeah, let's talk about selfish.

Yeah, like, okay, they're the ones suffering, and here you are feeling, you know, guilty that you feel this way. That, you know, you don't have the right to acknowledge those feelings. I mean, it is similar, and I think more people can relate to what exactly what you're saying. And I can think of it with Gary. I remember once he was diagnosed, all I was doing was Googling. His oncologist wouldn't give us, you know, give me something, give me something. I just want something finite because, you know, I'm an accountant and I need to know. And obviously they can't do that. And so when I, I didn't know, like I said, it kind of happened suddenly. So it was not really expected at that time. Even though I knew it was coming. And you have that guilty feeling because I'm thinking to myself, how much longer can this last? I can't take it. My kids can't take it. And he is suffering so that it's cruel. Yeah, right. So, and then you feel so guilty, you feel so guilty for even having those thoughts because you're thinking, well, it's not like I wish that he would die.

Right.

But I kind of do. But, you know, it's, it's a, it's a really, I think, complex, difficult feeling. And when you learn that everybody goes through that, you know, when it's not a sudden death, you know, after caregiving, whatever it is, then I think you're able to take a breath and let yourself off the hook because you're not a bad person. Your feelings are natural and common.

Yeah. Thank you again. Thank you so much for sharing that because we do, we beat ourselves up and we say there's something wrong with me. This is an evil thought. This is a thought I shouldn't have. And I would say every emotion is valid. Um, you need to feel it, let it go through. You're having it for a reason. And we can beat ourselves up so badly. And I've heard people say that after someone passes that's gone through an extended illness or something, when they feel relief because the person's no longer suffering, or you no longer— then you feel guilty for feeling the relief.

Oh my goodness, absolutely. Absolutely. And you feel relief on one hand, you know, at certain times. I remember right after Gary died, the room I'm sitting in right now in my house, this was a room, it's an— it was originally an office, and then he couldn't get up the stairs. So we turned this into a bedroom. And after he died, my, my brother who lives in Ohio, So he was— he stayed with me a little extra time. And in that time, literally, I don't— Gary hadn't even been gone a week. We refixed this whole room and changed it. Hmm. And I felt kind of that people were judging me like, wow, you got rid of him really quickly.

Yeah.

But one, it was out of necessity because my brother is not here and I didn't really have anybody else who could, like, do all the physical heavy lifting. But two, it, it kind of brought me comfort to be able to come to this room where I felt Gary and, and use it for a different purpose.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, that's so important. You know, after, after our daughter passed, she was 15. And so, you know, people would ask like, at what point do you change the room? You know, at what point do you, do you repurpose the room? You know, and then like, the answer is different for everybody. Uh, some people might need the space. Some people feel like they want some new energy in there. Doesn't mean you're getting rid of your loved one. Moving their stuff out is not getting rid of them. They will always be with us. So again, you have to turn within for those answers and we have to stop trying to worry about what other people are going to think because, you know, people can judge you either way. Um, Shayna's room is still pretty much the same as it was 10 years ago. We've given away a lot of her clothes and stuff like that, but her furniture's still in there and it's still— her bookcase is still in there, her books and stuff. And some people might say, well, you're holding on to her, you know, that's, that's, that's not good, you're, you're obsessing over whatever. So people are going to judge no matter what you do, so do whatever feels feels right for you.

I do agree with that. I do definitely, definitely agree with that. It's just like now at this point, people are saying, well, are you going to date? Yeah, you know, and that's a whole other interesting category. And also interesting how people judge how quickly or how slowly that happens, or if it happens. And, you know, I'm on some Facebook groups where even I'm like, oh my gosh, how do they do it so quickly? Like 3 months later, they're dating. That just seems— but you don't know. Every, every circumstance is different. And I'll know, and I'm getting there. I'll know when it's right for me. Not because, oh, the 2-year mark has passed, boom, get yourself on some dating app. No. Maybe I never want to date. Maybe I don't know. I don't know. It's, it's nobody else's. It's hard because I do think that there is a lot of judgment. And it's just like everything else. Until you go through it yourself, you just don't know what it feels like. You can try.

Right?

You just don't know.

Yeah. It's just now. Yeah, having this conversation right now is really interesting because I've got a friend, I've known him for 26, 27 years, I guess, now. And his wife passed away suddenly 4 years ago, and she was like not even 50. And so, um, again, 4 years ago. So we just went to his house for dinner like 2 nights ago, and his new girlfriend was there. And I remember when I heard, like, oh, he has a girlfriend, I'm like, how long has it been since she passed? And, and my wife goes, 4 years. I'm like, oh wow, first of all, I didn't know it was 4 years.

Yeah.

Because it doesn't feel like that to us. And then this is a person you've seen only with this other person for so long, and it's just— it's a weird thing. But what I realized is like, I have no idea what I would do, you know, because if you're like in your early 60s and stuff, you might be here for a long time. You might be here for another 25, 30 years. You might want to date again. Um, so it's— I, again, I, I think from the outside looking in, I just have to say I don't know what I would do. And so it's not my place to have an opinion one way or the other.

And even if you think you know what you would do, you know how many times I said before he was sick, oh yeah, if anything ever happened to him, I am done. Like, I am done with this whole— I'm good, right? But then, you know, well, like you said, I'm 61. It— is that what I want? I don't know. I don't think so. So until you're there, even when you think you know, you don't know.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. So you decided to write your memoir though while your husband was, was passing, uh, was transitioning. So what was the reason for that, writing it then? And what did you learn from going through that process?

Yeah, so it wasn't a conscious decision like, oh, this seems like a great time to, to try this, at all. I had been through the couple of years prior, everyone kept saying, you know, once I realized that I had something to share, people would say, oh, you should really write a book. Now, how many times has everybody heard that? And you say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I really was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is never happening. But something, it was like, you know, the universe kind of lined up. And it kept coming up more and more. And one day I was listening to a podcast, one I don't listen to regularly, and the woman's guest was someone who helped first-time authors get their stories out there. And listening to her, I liked her and I thought, oh my goodness, this is, this is like for me, this is a sign. I have to get in touch with this woman and just see where this leads me. And I did. And I liked her. And she was launching a course for first-time authors. To learn, because like I said, I didn't know anything. And I was scared to take the course, right? Because this was way out of my comfort zone, and I had all these limiting beliefs. And I was like about to take the plunge, and my husband got the diagnosis. And I was talking to a therapist at the time, and I said to the therapist, I'm even— I'm mortified that I'm even like thinking about such a thing when we just got this news. And obviously I'm not doing this now. I'll stay in touch with her. I'll see where life takes me. And she said, I disagree. She said, I think that this is the perfect time and this is exactly, exactly what you'll need. I thought, what? And she said, you're going to need something separate from everything that's going to be going on. You're going to need something separate just for you. And I said, well, what if I can't go to the, you know, online class group every week? And what if there's homework and I don't hand in the homework? And what if, what if? And she said, who cares? And I thought, oh, I guess so. Who cares? And so I signed up for the course. And I would say the first 6 weeks I was lost in what I was— I had no idea even how to start writing or think or, you know, again, the way my brain worked, I needed to see it all laid out. I wasn't just going to like start writing some stories and see where it leads me. No, I want to know exactly where it's leading me. And once I got that down, then it was, it was much easier, I think. What wound up happening was, is that my therapist was 100% right. Even though it was extremely difficult to write, uh, and, you know, I would sometimes sit there and kind of just stare at the keyboard not knowing what to type. I, I started making it a priority. You know, it's just like any habit. Every day, or most days, I'm going to write, whether it's for 15 minutes or it's for 40 minutes, whatever it is, something is better than nothing. But it's not going to happen unless I make it happen. And so I would schedule it in. Sometimes I would write at 5:30 in the morning before my husband woke up. If my husband was in the hospital, I'd bring my computer to the hospital. You know, I was there with him all day from 8 to 8 or whatever it was when he was sleeping or went for a test. I wrote and it really was what I needed. Because it did. It gave me something that was just my own. Now, besides the fact that it was cathartic because I was writing stories about my life, you know, that is a whole other thing. But I just think the idea was that learning something new, having something different, separate to focus on during that time, it was— brought a little bit of excitement, even though you don't want to say, just like you wouldn't want to say, oh, look, I'm so excited, you know, when I know what's happening with my husband. But it, it was, it really, uh, it nourished me. And when he died, I was 3 chapters shy of finishing. He died on December 30th. I was supposed to hand in my first manuscript to the editor, my first draft, by January 15th. And they said to me, well, of course, Don't be silly. You know, we'll extend the due date. And after everyone went home and how, you know, everyone who's lost someone knows that that's the hardest time. You know, now you're left with it and everyone else goes back to their normal lives and your life will never be the same again. And I thought, well, it saved me while he was dying. Maybe it can do the same now. And so I shifted my focus and I finished by January 15th. And, and that process, you know, then there's a whole editing process that I despised, but that kind of kept me, my mind there, you know, then it really happened. Then I knew I was gonna release my book on August 9th. And so there was just a bright light, something else to focus on. And that whole time I was learning something new because, you know, there's a whole journey from the time you write the first draft to it actually gets published. And so it was all a learning process and exciting during a very difficult time that really, really helped me.

Yes. Well, I appreciate— yeah, what you said there I think was really interesting about like, I felt like I shouldn't be excited or couldn't be excited when my husband is dying. And that illustrates life is never all good or all bad. And when we were in grief, we feel like other people think this, or maybe we think this, okay, I'm supposed to just be sad all the time. I'm just supposed to concentrate on this one thing. And that's not what life is about. There's always, there's always a mixture of good and good and bad, to use those terms that we, like, we use things that we judge to be good and bad. And there's never a time when it's not a time to have something to look forward to. Uh, maybe when you're going through grief, that's actually the best time to have this, this other thing, as you, as your person said. So I think that's, I think it's a wonderful, you know, revelation that occurred to you. Um, I want to ask you about your Canfield Certified Trainer. And first of all, what does that mean, and has that helped you to reframe life's challenges?

So Jack Canfield co-wrote a book with Janet Switzer called The Success Principles. And when I first found it, it was really— it was a lesson plan. He was actually a teacher. That was his first career. And again, I love a lesson plan. Like, it laid it all out for me. And what I realized was I had already done a lot of the steps, maybe not in the same order and you don't have to do it in the same order. And I felt like that gave me a framework to deliver my message to other people. Like, why should I reinvent the wheel? Uh, you know, I agree with what is laid out here.

Mm-hmm.

So, um, so he has a goal of, I think it's a million certified trainers because he himself, and he's 80 now, he himself can't get to as many people as he would like. But if he has trainers who can, you know, deliver his message and help people realize that they have it within them to do whatever they want, you know, that's his goal.

Awesome. So, um, tell me about your business, A Sprinkle of Hearts.

So, oh, actually, a month and a half before Gary died, I was scrolling on my phone and I don't remember what I was shopping for. And I put in hearts cuz I've always loved hearts. And when I was in college in Washington, DC, there was a store that sold only things with hearts in them. And when I discovered that store, I wanted to literally move my bed in that store.

It just made me so happy.

Happy, and my friends would be so annoyed. I'm like, let's go to that mall, or whatever it was. And then again, and I said, someday I am going to have a Hart store. And of course, life happened. Now it's 40 years later. And for whatever reason, that night, I thought, oh my gosh, I forgot. It's 2022, or whatever it was. I don't need to have a brick-and-mortar store. I can have an online store. And I, you know, through what I had been doing, I had a connection and she helped people set up their stores and blah, blah, blah. Actually, on the same day the book was due to the editor, the store opened because I wanted it to open a month before Valentine's Day. So it opened on January 14th, 2023. Oh, wow. This, this year, over the last 2 months, it's now transitioned a little bit. But I mean, it was crazy. Like, I made my dream come true. So hearts and sprinkles and all those things. It's just something that I've always loved that makes me smile. So that's where it comes from.

Awesome. Awesome. So we're gonna wrap up here pretty soon. So I want to ask you a question. If someone listening today is in the depths of grief, and they're going, they're going through it and you've been through it. What's one piece of advice you want to leave them with today?

Well, I think what you just said is it's okay to feel two, two feelings at the same time. If you just start to— and, and that's kind of where the sprinkle effect came from. If you just can sprinkle little pieces of something new, maybe some new ideas, maybe start to do what we're calling the work, the possibility. Where do I go from here? Where do I want to go from here? What is something that I can— maybe for you, it's, you know, I always wanted— and I say knitting because I never wanted to try knitting, but it's one of the things my friend forced me into. And because she said, you said, maybe I can. So now I had to, you know, put my money where my mouth is. And it turned out to be something that I did actually in my grief find very relaxing. So, you know, it's okay. Give yourself permission. What is something small or big that you've always wanted to try or do? And figure out how you can make that happen, how you can make one small step because I think that even though that doesn't change your grief, and it doesn't mean it's going away, and it doesn't mean that there won't be times that it is so darn hard, because it will be, but it's kind of giving yourself a little light at the end of the tunnel and a little bit of, of direction, you know, a little sprinkle of hope.

Yeah, that, that's, that's great. That's a great piece of advice. And I think a great way to wrap up today. So remind people of the name of your books and where people can find out more about you.

Sure. Uh, my memoir is On Second Thought, Maybe I Can, and my newest book is, uh, The Sprinkle Effect. They're both on Amazon, or this is how my website changed. I have two websites. One is asprinkleofhearts.com where my books are for sale. And then I also have my own website, debbiarweiss.com, and there's links there too.

Awesome. Debbie, it's great to meet you today. Um, enjoy the rest of your day.

Same to you. Thanks for having me.

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