On the Path to Forgiveness: An Inspiring Story of Love, Loss and Resilience

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith. I'm back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. Today I've got a really interesting story for you. By a woman who goes by Naja. And because of the nature of her story, she chose— has chosen to remain anonymous. But she does want to share this story with you because it's really important to learn about, about complicated grief, unresolved conflict, forgiveness, all those things when it comes to, to the, to dealing with things when we lose someone that was complicated. So Naja is 60 years old, she lives in Denmark, she works as a translator.. And what we're going to do again, we're going to talk about complicated grief, unresolved business with their deceased loved one, in this case happens to be her husband, and working through that towards forgiveness and peace of mind. So with that short introduction, I'd like to introduce you to Naia. So Naia, if you would, please tell me the story of what happened with you and your husband.

Well, it is a long story. What happened was, let's see, 6 years ago almost, my husband had, well, he had some, he had been feeling a little bit ill and went through some tests and we thought he was going to have a gallstone operation. And then they just did one final scan and we were going to have results of that. And I decided to go with him. And I remember just before leaving the house, I glanced at myself in the mirror and I had this strange feeling of, is this before? Because maybe a premonition, I don't know. They had postponed our appointment time and I thought that was strange. Anyway, we went there. And to the hospital, and he was told that he had cancer and it was progressed, and, uh, we should come back one week later to hear if it was operable. And it turned out it wasn't. It wasn't curable. And he asked them, "So I'll die from this?" And they said yes. So the thing is, from the very beginning, there was kind of no hope in terms of maybe he could recover. There was no hope at all. And this was a shock, of course. And it was a shock in 3 ways. First thing was the obvious thing, I mean, he was 55 at the time and to me, of course, I'm going to lose the love of my life and how are we going to cope with this? And the second thing that really was a shock to me in the middle of this was his reaction. He totally panicked. Um, and I mean, I can understand that you panic in some degree at this news. And I think maybe his huge panic had to do with one week you think you're going to have a gallstone operation, 7 days later you're told you got cancer. 7 days later, you're told you're going to die from it. So he kind of felt that I'll be dead in a second kind of thing. And I want to talk a little bit about this anxiety and panic because it's kind of the backdrop. You have to remember that backdrop from what else happened. He described this fear, uh, he, um, what do you call it, uh, compared it to once he had been flying. He hated flying, uh, and, uh, there's— there'd been some turbulence, and like for maybe a minute or a half, he had truly believed that he was going to die. They were going to crash. And, and he said It's like that. It's just, it doesn't stop. It's all the time I have this feeling, and that's quite some anxiety. And we were kind of living hour by hour. I mean, something happens to time when you're in a, in a state like that. Like, uh, 3 hours can feel like a day. Because there are 10,000 thoughts racing through your mind an hour, and, and there's so much to cope with. And I, uh, of course wanted to, to be there for him, um, and that meant— I mean, when you're with someone so anxious and such fear and fright, and it was tremendous. And okay, he got some pills to try and kind of take the, you know, antidepressant or anti-anxiety pills. Those kind of pills take some, often some weeks to work. So this state was really, it was everything. And I tried to be with him in that. I tried to comfort him. I tried to just be there, hold him. And, uh, he wanted me to pray. I've never done so much praying in my life. Just, you know, we were walking restlessly, walking the streets, going into any church we came by, praying, um, just moving and trying to find— maybe, maybe there was 15 minutes a day where there was some kind of peace and the anxiety wasn't there. So this was really, really heavy. It was also one of It sounds strange maybe, but it was one of the most intimate and intense things I've ever experienced with another person. I guess because when you're in so much anxiety, all layers are peeled off and you kind of get some moments of clarity. And in some sense, there's a complete honesty. There's no facade. Anyway, this was, this was the situation. The third thing that was really a shock to me was that his ex wanted to go all in from day one, and he wanted her to. And especially the latter was quite a shock to me because I had no idea that she still meant so much for him. And this brought out an old jealousy of mine. And I must admit, in that situation with everything we had to deal with, jealousy was the last thing I wanted to deal with at this time. And Maybe I should tell you a little bit about my experience with this ex, um, because the bottom line is she was a stranger to me, and that was part of why it was so hard for me to have her so close in this situation in particular. Um, I think their, uh, relationship was maybe 20 years back, or at least, at least 10 years before he and I got together. And it wasn't very long, less than a year. And, and by the time I got together with him, uh, we were— he was always arguing with his ex. And after a while, after he and I got together, they kind of got along better and started seeing each other from time to time. And of course I was curious about her, who wouldn't be? Uh, and he sort of kept us a bit apart. In a way to say, to protect me a little bit, because maybe she could be a little bit— I don't know how to put it. I mean, I would say from my own experience that she might have probably a lot of good qualities, but she also had a quite bossy character, like, a bit dominant. Uh, anyway, um, It's, uh, I tried to get to know her, and, you know, if we had mutual friends, if we were at parties or out where she was, I tried to get to know her, but she never showed any interest in getting to know me. And, uh, and that's In a way, that's okay. I mean, if you have a partner and he's no longer your partner and he gets a new partner, I mean, there's no obligation to, to, to feel, you know, any interest in that new partner. But the, the thing is, things being the way they were when he got his diagnosis, I just didn't understand how she could expect me to find it okay when she had never sort of shown any interest in getting to know me. Or at least I don't— didn't understand that she didn't understand why I found it difficult, right? And well, that's, that's her and me, that's one thing, but, but, uh The other thing is that my husband didn't understand my feelings. And I would say, I mean, we had been together for about 12 years at that time, and it had been sort of surfacing before, so it couldn't be completely new to him how I felt, that it was problematic for me. For instance. I mean, he suffered from recurring depressions. He had done that for a lot of years, and I, I, I knew that, that somehow also she maybe could be— could help him a little bit, that it helped him to talk to her, which is fine. Um, but more problematic, I found it sometimes maybe If he and I had had a row, which didn't happen often, but when it happened, usually same day or the day after, he would go to see her. And that made me very insecure. So I had told him before, so it wasn't new to him. But anyway, here you are in a situation where This person you love very deeply, and he's going to die, and he's in panic, and you want to be there for him. You want to comfort him. You want to do what's best for him. So, uh, well, doing what's best for him also meant— included doing things that were worse for me. So that's a catch-22, I think. I mean, I've never— I'm not generally, generally prone to jealousy. I mean, he and I met each other when we were in our early 40s. We had both lived our own lives before that. And of course, you're aware at that age that everyone has a past and people from the past. So it's It's, I mean, and, but I mean, I've never, you know, I've never been someone who's gone around 5 times a week asking, "Do you love me? Do you love me?" I mean, needing confirmation in that way. But I had, 'cause I had always felt that he did love me. And now I think within 10 days of this diagnosis, I find myself asking him, "Do you love me?" I just really didn't feel like his number one person.

I mean, well, I think it's quite natural to be somewhat jealous of our, of our husband's, our partner's ex, um, particularly when they're reaching out to them at a time where you want to be intimate with him and you feel like it's your time and you— and your time is limited at that point. So I think it's, it's what you felt was very natural. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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Yeah, I think so too. And others think so too, but the thing was that she and he were completely above jealousy. And it was like, well, that's something you have when you are 22, you know. I mean, in my opinion, jealousy has no age. Usually when you say jealousy, people think of you know, like, what do you call it, a sick kind of jealousy where, where you get jealous just because your husband looks at a woman in the street or something like, like, un— well, jealousy for no reason, right? It's because of your own insecurity. But, but, but, I mean, I really truly believe to this day that the jealousy I felt was for a reason. There was a reason because there was something, um, well, how should I put it, quote unquote strange about the relationship. And much later, much, much later, uh, I realized by talking to, to other people in their circle of friends, um, I realized that quite a few of them had wondered for years what was going on in a way because, yeah, well, it's complicated. But at that time I didn't dare to ask anyone because I thought that anyone in this circle of friends, everyone were friends with her too. Because they used to go on some skiing trips together, so they'd known each other for years. It's just much later I realized that the others were a bit sort of— what do you call it— they were wondering about this relationship. And it got more complicated maybe by the fact that, um, it's, um, and a very old friend of my husband, um, also going way back. Um, after my husband stopped being with his ex, shortly after, within a year or two, this friend of his became her partner. And, uh, and by the time my So they had like, they had been seeing each other. I'd often wondered, how do you, how do you manage this? I mean, you're with your friend and he's with your ex. How, how do you go about that? And, and it was things like, uh, well, with, when I'm with him, I don't talk, we don't talk about her. And I don't know, it was, um, yeah, it was a bit peculiar to me anyway, but Yes, but I tried to— I had tried to, to have an open mind about this. I had tried to make space, make space, because it's one of the things we did in our relationship, making space for the other one to be who he or she was. Oh, but this was simply— at this point in time, it was too much for me. And it was— I mean, it was from day one. Like, she was one of the first persons you called to tell fair enough. And then he said, she want to come, she want to come by, can she come by? Yeah, well, and she came by and they were just— I mean, she never came to our house. When he saw her, it was always somewhere else. Sure. And we just came back from the hospital with this, he's got cancer, you know, and we were both devastated. And And then I see these two people sitting opposite me and, you know, holding hands, looking each other deep in the eyes. Of course, it's a special situation, I know that. But at some point, I just felt I might as well not have been there. It was very strange. Yeah. And, and then, but okay, you know, everything is— every— everyone has got their feelings on the outside in a situation like this. So of course you you react in a different way, or you react more slowly, or, you know, you're in something. And, and I remember at one point my, my husband went to the bathroom, and, uh, I was sitting here with this stranger, and I simply didn't know what to say to her. And, and then I, I just said something about— because that's one thing they had said at the hospital, that it was really, what do you call it, lucky in some way that they hadn't gone on with the gallstone operation because once they opened him, they would see the cancer. And then the, how do you say it, the cancer surgeons were at another hospital. So I kind of said, well, thank God that didn't happen then And maybe I repeated it once because I didn't know what to say to her. She was kind of really talking to me in a rude way, like, like in a bossy way, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, now we don't have to worry about what could have happened. Now we have to look forward. I was just like, hey, come on. I mean, I just started crying and it just felt so cold. Anyway, well, now this was quite a detailed first day. I didn't mean to do that. But another thing in this is that this was just before Christmas. And we, he couldn't get an appointment with the oncologist until January, like about, you know, they could give him some chemo and to prolong his life, you know. And in this whole anxiety month, I was, I was really worried that he might choose not to do the chemo because he might just want to get it over and done with. I was also afraid that he should jump from the balcony. I was really, really, really worried. And it was just before Christmas, and she would call almost every day. And other friends had called, of course, and they had also come by and talked, but they might maybe call once a week. She called almost every day. And I was with this completely frightened person and trying to talk to him, trying to find, you know, little spots of light and all this, and trying to make him cope. And then if she called, it was like— to me it was like I felt it as a wedge coming in between us every time. Because maybe I was just, just getting him somewhere and she called, and then okay, then he was all on her and that was really— and I hated myself for it too, because, oh, why can't I just drop this jealousy? But nevertheless, this— every time this contact weakened me, and I had so much to cope with, and I really had to be strong for him. So it was really problematic.

Yes.

And then, just before Christmas, we had never— in all the years together, we had never spent Christmas together. In Denmark, we do it on Christmas Eve, you you know, that's the big night. And so of course, not knowing how long he had to live, and I really wanted to spend Christmas with him. And he agreed. I mean, either he had been with his father or he had been at work on Christmas Eve. And this year we decided to do it together at my mom's place. And I said, could you please ask your ex not to call you at Christmas because I simply didn't want to sit at my mom's place and her suddenly calling. And, you know, I had to have this wedge coming in. And, um, and he, he agreed. And, uh, and then he said to me, could you— now, I, I called her, I told her not to call, and she found it a bit strange and she was a little bit upset. Could you please write her a letter? No, no, he didn't say that. Could you please write her and explain, send her mail or something? And the last thing I wanted to do was to, you know, think about her. And he was really sort of anxious, and, and like, you know, I talked to him and I said, does it really mean that much to you? Yes, please. And then I sat down and started to write an email to her. And as I did this, I realized that all my saved-up frustration, my old jealousy, just kind of came out. And but, you know, I tried to write it really politely. And okay, it was one other thing I have to say, which is part of the story, it should be said. Uh, shortly after they split up, way back, way back, she had had cancer. And at that time, my husband had really been there for her, like coming along, sitting with her, just no expectations, just being there and helping her. And of course, she was very grateful for that. And she of course wanted to, you know, show her gratitude by being there for him now, which is— I understand, I understand. The great difference is of course that when she was ill, she was single, and now when he was ill, he had a wife.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, so I think some I mean, you have to weigh up some things. How can I best help someone? Can I best help someone by keeping a low profile for a while? Or, you know, anyway, uh, I wrote this letter to her and, and I told her, I understand that you're upset too of losing him, and you know he's going to die, and, and it's beautiful with all these people wanting to help us. But I have a problem with this, and it's about an old jealousy of mine. And I wrote to her, I wish I didn't have it, but it comes from this and this, and you're a stranger to me. And you know, right now I need all my energy for him. So kind of, you know, asking her, how do you put this, firmly but politely, right? Right. To please know her place.

Sure.

To step down and to not contact him. I mean, to wait for him to contact her, not calling all the time, like for him to contact her. And, uh, and I also promised her to keep her, you know, up to date about how things were going and let her know everything if one day he couldn't let her know by himself. You know, and my husband read this letter, so he knew what I sent to her. And I wrote to her that he had read it, you know, so, and then I sent it off. And then, oh God, she didn't answer until 10 days later. 10 days is a long time when you're in that state. Anyway, she answered something like, I'm sorry about this. And okay, I also offered her if she wanted to talk to me about this thing with the jealousy, we could do that. But maybe she shouldn't talk so much to my husband about it because he was in— he had enough on his plate. And when I got the answer, like, I mean, also she was of course sorry, but she didn't excuse her behavior that first day at all, which was something in a way I needed, but that's what it is. And she said that she sort of, "If you both want this, I respect it." And I was like, "Okay." It was— and then, well, soon after, my husband asked me, can she call me again? And it's like, and this is the catch-22, you know, because if I said no, would he then sort of be sulking at me for the rest of his time? Or if I said yes, it would rip me apart, you know. And anyway, I said yes because I didn't know what to do. And I had asked him, because at one stage it was really like I I asked him, you have to choose between her and me, because if I have to be in this with you, you have to choose. And I remember one evening, uh, I asked him that, and he said, okay, then I'll say goodbye to her, but then you can't leave me. And he went into the street to call her, and her line was busy. He came back up and, and he said, and this isn't a good idea. And, and I, in a way, I knew it wasn't a good idea, but at that time I just, I just wanted her gone from my life, you know. But of course, asking another person to completely cut with someone who means something to him Is— can you ask another person that in this situation? You know, it's, it's complicated. It's not black and white.

It is complicated, Naya, but I have to interject here, and I think that every woman listening will, will resonate with what you're saying, will relate to what you're saying.

It's—

when you're with someone and they're with their ex and they're having that, that sort of intimacy, you're going to be jealous. I think, as I said earlier, I think that's a natural response. But you, you tried as best you can to accommodate him, but you've got your feelings as well.

I think it depends, because I think it's possible to, to have, you know, I mean, if I had known her, if, if she had been a person I liked but my experiences with her were not pleasant. Uh, and, and you could say that doesn't matter as long— I mean, I don't have to have anything to do with her in general in our life, very little. But in this situation, it really mattered, right? I mean, I just, just to mention this, actually there's another ex of his, uh, because actually I, I also went to school with— I mean, back from high school with my husband. I knew him back then. And, and, and his girlfriend back then was also my best friend. And we're still friends today. So it's not the question of being an ex in itself. It's, it's got to do with respecting each other's roles. Right. So it's not the ex and in itself. Anyway, I felt invaded. But so I tried to swallow it because I mean, at one stage he said, maybe I should— I mean, he said, maybe I should just go live somewhere else and then you can come visit me. And I completely couldn't cope with that because I mean, I wanted to be with him as much as possible in the little time, whatever time we had left. So him moving out was also— I couldn't see it as an option. Maybe it would have been a good idea, I don't know, in hindsight, but I couldn't cope then and I wanted to take care of him. So, uh, anyway, January came and we, we saw the oncologists and he decided to do the chemo and Well, we asked about the prognosis, uh, because if you think you're dead in 2 weeks and that's your state, you know, and then, uh, and the doctor said, well, he thought that, uh, at least 12 months. And that was— I mean, the pills had started working a bit, and I think this message kind of made My husband said, well, then we might— then it looks as if we can have some kind of everyday life, at least for a while, you know. And, um, uh, so we— what do you call it— we strutted on, whatever. And, um, but I just, uh, he, he didn't want any counseling. I mean, I had asked him because this problem was so big between us, and I thought we should get some— I don't know what you call it— marriage counseling, or I felt it was necessary, right? Because there were some things here not dealt with, and his attitude was like, what's the use now? I mean, again, this, I'm dying in a minute, you know. And I wish he had thought differently about that because I'm not sure it would have helped, but he didn't want counseling. And I said, we have to. And he didn't accept my jealousy. I mean, that's really the thing. If you go into marriage and you kind of say you're going to love and honor each other, it's— and you know, for sickness and health, all those things. To me, it's— to honor someone also means to respect their feelings. I mean, feelings— we can't help feeling the way we feel. We can, we can help how we react or act on them, but we can't help the feelings we have. It's out of our control, at least the moment you have the feeling. It's exactly out of your hands. Exactly. So, and, and, you know, like if you say to, um, if, if you have a child and the child is afraid of the dark and you're not afraid of the dark, and you say to this child, that's ridiculous, there's nothing to be afraid of, and you tuck the child into bed and put out the light and close the door and leave the room, you know, that's, that's not going to make that fear in the child any smaller. You know, on the contrary, on the contrary. So if someone is not— I mean, you can, you can respect someone's feelings, even though you don't understand them, or you, you find them ridiculous for yourself, you know, but you have to respect that someone else is somewhere else. And I mean, imagine that I had said to him that his fear of death was ridiculous. And in a way, I think, I think you might say that, that's beyond comparison. But it's—

I think you said it very well. Your feelings are your feelings. We can, we can choose how we respond or react to our feelings, but we can't really control our feelings directly. And again, I think a situation where it's an ex-person, and that you said you don't know her very well, and you're in a situation where your husband is dying, Of course you're going to want to— you're going to want privacy. You want to have that time you have with them left. You want it to be as special as possible. So I think, rationally speaking, maybe, you know, you were trying to get out of the way and everything. I can understand your feelings. Absolutely. 100%.

Thank you. I think the Actually, it was not having the feeling, and it was not her in, in her, you know, in itself. The worst thing was that he didn't, um, respect my feeling.

He didn't choose you? Yes.

Well, I think he couldn't choose. That's, that's a later realization. But, but the— I think he was unable. And, and that's of course scary to, to realize, um, but, but actually I think he was unable, at least in that, in that state he was in, right? Um, and anyway, uh, I don't know where we go from here, uh, so the only, the only, the only, uh So what kind of counseling he wanted, if you could talk about that, is he only wanted to talk to our vicar, you know, to your vicar. Yeah, the local. And, uh, and of course a vicar is not a psychologist, but you can, you can talk about death and dying, and I think it, it meant something to him to have those talks. However, he didn't want to talk to the vicar about the jealousy thing. So, but, uh, and I went with him. I mean, I, I accompanied him, and, uh, it was quite precious to me actually because, um, my husband wasn't very good at sharing his thoughts. Uh, so sometimes I I only learned about what was going on in his head when I heard him talk to others, when someone else asked him something and he answered. So it was valuable to me to be at those talks, you know, going on. But I just had to tell you this because I mean, I tried to swallow all this, but I simply couldn't cope. And I was falling to pieces 3 times a week about this jealousy thing. And in the end, he said, him not wanting us to go to counseling together, I mean, you know, group, what do you call it, marriage counseling. He said, but then maybe you should talk to then it was the ex of his ex, the new ex, like his old friend. They had recently divorced, so he could come and talk to me. And I said, well, okay, I'll try it. And I talked to him about my whole relationship— oh, non-relationship with his ex, you know, uh, my husband's ex. And, and it just just didn't give me anything. I mean, all three of them were really above this, any understanding of my feelings.

Right, right.

And, and then like a week later, I was still falling to pieces about this. And, and sorry, and it was really So lonely. It was so lonely not having, you know, your feelings recognized. Yeah. So, and then one, about one week later, he said, then, then you have, then she'll have to come here and you'll have to talk to her, right?

Well, now we're running a little short on time, so if we could, could we move forward to when when your husband was actually hospitalized. I know there were some things that happened when he was hospitalized that, that we, we need to really touch on.

Well, uh, okay, I'll try. I'll try to fast forward a bit. I mean, okay, things weren't going well, but I was trying to hang in there and I was trying to swallow things. And, uh, basically you could say I was sent off to counseling myself on my own, to sort out my jealousy thing of mine. I ended up doing counseling for 3 years, not about the jealousy, but about the whole thing.

Sure.

Anyway, so I was trying to do that. And I went with him to chemo. And, you know, and things, the situation just wasn't sustainable. Because he didn't let me in. And when you walk in something like this every day, I mean, it's really hard for your self-esteem. So, so at, at one point— this is actually, this is long before he was hospitalized, because that was much later. We had had a rough week, and I had gone for a walk one evening just to talk on the phone with my sister. And when I came back, he had been drinking a little bit, and he said, "Tomorrow I'll move out." And I was— I just couldn't believe it. And I said, well, what do you expect from me then? And he said something about, well, I expect you to, you know, take care of the bills every month. And I mean, sort things out, keep all the, you know, all the secretary work I'd been doing for months. Besides the housework, besides everything. And then he went to bed, and I went to pieces. Completely went to pieces because I tried so hard, and then he ends up leaving me. And next morning, I went to church and I came back and he had, I think, Maybe he hadn't quite realized what he'd said, I don't know. But he, he had made arrangements to go and stay with his ex. And I was really sad. I helped him pack some things, you know, his medicine and all those things I had been taking care of. And, and we were both sad. And, and I said, what about your— he had this favorite chair 'You want your chair?' And then he said, 'Oh, but I think I might be coming back. I guess I will at some point.' And that's just kind of a roller coaster thing with my emotions. I mean, you don't tell someone you leave them and then you sort of next day, 'Oh, maybe I didn't mean it.' I mean, it was— I just, uh, I just couldn't have it. And then, uh, anyway, it was very, very sad. We were both sad and he left. She came and picked him up. And the next day it was— he was going to get some answers for a scan, his latest scan. And I had already made an appointment that I would go with him or meet him at the hospital for this. So I went there with him, and actually this scan was positive, you know, like it looked good. And I still imagine this doctor sitting there in front of two people who got this news and just looked really I had both of them. But anyway, that's how it goes. And then we had a cup of coffee outside, because he had to wait for some things, some tests. And then we had the— but he said some things that just really triggered me. And we had the biggest fallout. I mean, I got so angry.. And we parted in anger, both of us. And I went home and I was just crying. And it was as if all this— all these— this was 6 months in, you know, months of suppressed emotion just exploded. I mean, I was angry 24/7 for 10 days in a row. I've never been so angry in my life. I had so much anger, like talking through the walls. I was really angry. I was like, you know, finally the lid off the, you know, uh, anyway, we were both sorry that we had parted this way. We, we, we wrote, we texted each other, but I was still angry. And a friend of his suggested that he moved to another friend instead of his ex if he wanted to come back, and which was good, and he did. But anyway, he finally— we met then after 10, 12 days, and he finally agreed that we got some counseling. Finally, finally, finally. And then we got some counseling at, um, you know, the cancer cancer patients and their relatives. And we had about 4 sessions. But he was— I can't explain to you this, but what came out in those sessions, it was just like, it felt as if my whole life crumbled backwards in front of my very eyes, like Things came out, like things I'd asked him about through the years and never got clear answers. Suddenly I got to know things, and, and, uh, I just felt more and more that I'd been living on a lie, which I hadn't, but this is what I felt at the time. And, um, um, that I didn't feel any love from him. I, and I mean, I remember after these sessions, we, we went to a café and talked on, and he was just saying some really mean and vicious things and hardly any love and very angry with me and still no understanding. And I just couldn't— I mean, he wanted to come back, but I didn't dare because those 10 days of anger, when I finally had some space for myself, I had realized what it had done to me to live with him under those circumstances. I still loved him, I still wanted to be there for him, but I felt I couldn't live with him. And to him it was all or nothing. So after the last session, he came at the session, he was very determined, and he like, he was scolding the counselor for her counseling, he was— he said, I'm going to file for divorce and I'm going to move my things out later this week. And outside, so it was a very short session, outside he told me to say goodbye from him to my mom and my sis. And I said— I was really crying— I said please don't die with so much hatred in your heart. And he was just so angry with me. I think he shook hands with me for goodbye, and then he left. And 2 days later, divorce papers were there. And 2 days after that, his friends and he came and got all his things, which I had gotten ready for him. And It was just really a total disaster. And I remember when he left, all the friends had already left the flat, and when he left, said goodbye, I said, I really still want to help you even though I can't live with you. And he said, that's very difficult because this is the most abominable thing I've ever experienced, and And I remember when he was going down the stairs, he said— because he had called my jealousy a demon, which was also very hurtful early on, because he saw his own anxiety, his fear as a demon. He made this parallel that my jealousy was a demon, like I was possessed. And when he left that day, he said There is no demon, it's simply you. And that was the last time I saw him for— well, I thought forever, but turned out differently. So Klinghart divorce, and he didn't want to have any contact with me, none whatsoever, right? This fury, this hatred I was just cut out of his life. In a way, he made himself dead for me before he died. And I— this was not right. I mean, this was— I knew, I think about a month later, I realized that what I tried to make him understand, he was literally unable to understand. He was unable. And whether that was because of the fear, or, you know, some deficiency he was born with, or some— he was a damaged child, he had a very rough childhood. I didn't know. But the fact was he was unable. And so I regretted that I had kind of been I understood, I understood why he had felt that I was just banging him on his head with blame because he didn't understand it.

Right, right.

And that meant, that meant that I could forgive a lot of things, but I couldn't live with the way we parted. So I started writing this letter to him. Explaining and, and really not blaming and asking for reconciliation because I felt we had always loved each other. I still believed in that love. And also thanking him for all the things I wanted to thank him for, which was something we had never had time for because everything was conflict and crisis and jealousy and hatred and anger, and we had never had this quiet time. I didn't dare to post it because I was afraid she would get the letter, so I left it— I left it with his lawyer just before Christmas and texted him a short text saying I'd left the last things at his lawyer's.. And I didn't know what to do. And then by the end of January, by the end of January, the divorce was settled and I got this email from his lawyer. There was some money was being transferred and the lawyer just announced this to me. And then he also wrote that he was— he had been asked to tell me that my husband didn't— ex-husband, but I still call him my husband— that my husband didn't want any contact with me whatsoever, including my participation in his funeral. And I was like, I mean, ever since he left ever since he left, I've been praying for him every day. That day I found it quite hard because I thought that his hatred really— was it really beyond death? Sorry. But to this day, I don't know if that message came from him or from his ex. I suspect maybe it came from his ex because she was probably the one one dealing with the lawyer because he didn't deal with those things himself. But it was hard. Um, so, uh, all in all, about, uh, a year after— if you want me to fast forward, there's a lot of things in between— but about a year after, uh, he moved out. I heard from other friends that he was now not staying with her but staying in, well, this little house of his in the woods. And I thought, if I can ever— if I can ever talk to him. Maybe it's now, because I know he can't deal with the two of us at the same time. So I called him. It took a lot of courage to call him, and I had even warned him with a text saying, I'm going to call you tomorrow, you can think about whether you want to pick up. Anyway, he picked up, and it turned out he'd never seen my text. And he was quite surprised and asked me what I wanted and why I called. And I said I wanted to hear whether he had read my letter. And it was like, what letter? He didn't know anything of it. And the thing is, it was as if this hatred was gone. And he, he thought that I was moving on with my life, and I wasn't. I mean, my life had stopped, more or less. And I asked him if I could call him again, and he didn't say any clear yes or clear no, which I thought, okay, I can do it. I mean, we talked about for about an hour, and then I talked to him— I tried again 2 weeks later, he didn't pick up. And then 3 weeks after that, I talked to him again, and that was when I talked to him for an hour and a half. And that conversation in itself kind of saved my sanity because he was just like the, the man I used to know. He was just like, uh, you know, we, we had a really beautiful conversation and we even laughed and talked about things. I mean, okay, I avoided conflict stuff, but it was really like the old days. And it was so strange, so beautiful and so strange. And he told me that he was very ill and he was going back to go to hospital the next day. So I asked him if I could visit him at the hospital, and he was kind of hesitant, but I said I'll call him. And then some times later, a few— a week, a few days later, he was hospitalized, as you say, and was— well, I think he had one of— what do you call it when, when you have this the blood clots in a vein. I don't know what it's called. Word is gone.

Blood clot.

Yeah, yeah. So he had that in his leg and he had a lot of fluid in his body. Anyway, they fixed him up a bit and, um, I called him 2 to 3 times there, but she was kind of camping at the hospital. So sometimes when I talked to him, I sensed she was in the room and we could talk so freely. And yeah, I called him one night and he wasn't feeling well and I said, okay, I'll call you tomorrow, and he said, better the day after. We agreed on that and hung up. And then like 4 hours later, in the middle of the night, I suddenly got this text from her saying, you have to understand, he doesn't want to have any contact with you, and you know, you should stay away and understand this, and this text can't be answered. And I got furious because I just made this other appointment with him. And I didn't know if it came from him or not, right? It turned out she went behind his back because then the day after I called him and I said, I hope it's okay I call you. And he said, yes, of course, we, we greet them there. I said, okay. And he sounded very determined and he couldn't talk because the doctors were coming around. And I said, okay, we talk later. I called him in the afternoon and then— and he had sent her out of the room— and then he told me, this time politely, that we shouldn't have any contact anymore. And I was devastated, really devastated that he could do it twice. To me. Ah, so that's kind of the culmination of 2 years of an emotional state of emergency. Yes.

So when he ultimately did pass, were you involved in his funeral arrangements at all?

Well, the thing is I actually got to see him. I don't know, miracles happen. Miracles happen. I think he was after this, maybe 2 weeks later. Oh, by the way, he had told me he was being discharged and would make arrangements to go to a hospice. He was very ambiguous in his way of talking to me. Because in one sentence he says, I'm going, I'm going to hospice, and now I have to find out, find someone to take care of me, as if he was calling out for me. It was so strange. Anyway, he was discharged, and 2 weeks later I heard from friends that he was admitted again, and he was in a very, very bad state. Actually, he was admitted on his birthday, I think. And, uh, and I thought, okay, this is it. What am I going to do? I had to see him. I simply had to see him. And I didn't want to go there and crash, you know, gate crashing and making scenes, because I knew she was there 24/7 as well. So what to do? And I was up all night and wondering. And then in the morning, early morning, I called the hospital, the morgue, and I talked to a night nurse, and I explained this whole thing to her. And I said, I don't know what to do because he can't deal with the two of us at the same time, but I really want to see him. And she said— she told me to call when the day shift had arrived. So I called 3 hours later. And then it turned out, and this is the miracle, this night nurse, she had gone to his room while, while his ex was in the shower, and she had asked him if she wanted to fill in a form. You know, if you're not, if you're not close to the close relative, you're not allowed to, to hear how things are going. It's confidential. So you can fill in a form to say this person is allowed to know how things are going when she calls, and she's also allowed to see me when I'm dead. And he had signed it. He had signed it, and I was so surprised. And then the day after I was, uh, well, at counseling with my— with the vicar. Sorry. And I got a call from the hospital, kind of summoning, like saying, well, if you want to say goodbye, you should come soon. And I said, okay, you gotta help me then with, uh, this ex that we don't sort of have, you know, bump into each other. And that's what happened. I mean, they helped, they helped. And I went there and he was— I hadn't seen him for 15 months. And physically, wow. But the strange thing is that I, in a way, didn't care because it was the mental thing that was important. At this time, I really felt driven, and it was important to show him that I had never stopped loving him. Uh, but he was heavily medicated, dozing off, and the thing is, at this time, he had no mimic. Like maybe because of the medication, his face, there's no facial expressions, and he had this gray veil over his eyes, so you couldn't really tell how he felt. But I told him that I was there, and I asked him if it was okay, and he said— I asked him several times, and one time he said yes. And then I just sat there holding his hand Of course it was very emotional for me, but there was kind of peace between us and, uh, for an hour and a half. And then she wanted to come back in, and then I left. And then I realized I wasn't done yet, so I wanted to go down the next day because I really had to tell him some things. And I got there again, and again they kind of helped with the situation. And this time I had— he was more awake, which was beautiful. And I had kind of brought this letter of mine, but only the best parts of it, the parts with thanking him, things I wanted to thank him for. And I read this— well, I did some other things too, but I read this letter to him and and felt that he heard it and also had some greetings for him from people who couldn't deal with the situation and hadn't visited him. So, and then she came in and made a scene, and that's, uh, or rather, she, she started the conflict with me instead of, instead of sending in one of the nurses to ask me to leave. She just came in and said, no, you've been with him enough. And he started shaking. It was terrible. He started shaking and sitting up in bed. And, and then she had gone out briefly. He said something like her name and leave and you. And I asked him, do you want her to leave or do you want me to leave? And then he said, just said, 'Can't decide.' And I said, 'You didn't have to now, I was going to leave.' And well, I won't go into details, but very emotional goodbye. And that's the last time I saw him in life. I wanted to go back the next day, but she had the hospital followed her wishes that I shouldn't come. And he went into more or less into a coma the next day and died the day after.

So when he did eventually pass, you were, you were divorced, and you were, you were being kept from seeing him. So how did you go from that to the forgiveness that we talked about at the beginning? Because I know you've had quite a journey since then. In terms of your evolution, your forgiveness?

Well, I think part of my forgiveness came before he died. That's why it was so crucial also. I mean, I wanted to see him again. I wanted reconciliation. And of course, I did want that for my own sake mostly in the beginning. But after I realized I have to tell you one thing. In that first fragile precious month, you know, I remember one day I was holding him and comforting him and praying for him, you know, and he had this— he suddenly said, "It's amazing that you're here in this with me." Like really like wonder, full of wonder. Wow, that you're here. And I said to him, of course I am, I love you and you do the same for me. And then he said, no, if it was the other way around, I would have run away screaming. And I think, I think it was just completely honest. And, you know, given the whole situation with the jealousy thing, that of course this sentence resonated in my head many times. Like, but when he— after he moved out and I realized some things, I realized that because in one of the sessions I had confronted him, confronted him with this uttering of this a couple of times before we split up, and he had never answered. But in one of the counseling sessions at the end, uh, she asked him because I brought it up. So the counselor asked him, and then he said, well, I think I would have tried if it was the other way around. I would have tried, but I would have been on the verge of suicide. And then I kind of, you know, thought, okay, he's been projecting his own on me. Yeah, it kind of expected that I, indeed, I would leave him along the way. And I think whether it's conscious, consciously, uh, subconsciously, that played a part in his holding on to her. In order to have someone if I live. I don't know. I don't know. But it's just, it— I just realized that maybe he simply didn't dare to trust love.

So since, since he's passed, and you said you started the forgiveness journey before, How's it been? How's it been since? Because I know you refer to— I know Anita Moorjani's work has influenced you. So in what way was that?

That was, um, yeah, it's, um, okay. I said I, I forgave him, but also you must remember I had lived sort of only with his hatred for 15 months. So even though we had some kind of reconciliation, I mean, I didn't, I didn't dare to ask him if he still loved me. I didn't dare to ask because it was so hard. And the whole thing about the funeral, I had no say in it. I felt in my heart, I felt as his widow, but I had no say. And there was some coldness around the funeral from some of his friends, and that kind of prolonged my grieving process because I knew what had happened between him and me, and he hadn't really told his friends about his conversations with me, you know. And maybe they took— I don't know if I can blame them— they took the divorce at face value, like We were divorced, so no say in anything, almost no say. And I, um, yeah, I had— this was in November he died, and I had in January, I had one dream where he with him and we were together and we were happy and we were playful and everything was beautiful. That was nice. But I was— I had this, uh, how do you say, it sounds strange, but I was worried about him because he had so much anger and hatred and didn't really dare to be able to believe in God or mercy, grace. I don't know, I was afraid that he was in some kind of It sounds irrational, I know, but in some kind of limbo, like not choosing God, not going home to God, if you know what I mean. And that was one thing. The other thing was I was still very doubting whether he loved me. And, and then I had the most amazing experience in the spring. Um, I went to his grave and— or where he was, his urn was buried. No one had told me that, I'd found that out myself. Um, and, uh, you know, prayed a bit, cried a bit, and actually asked for signs. I think I asked for signs before I left, and then I, uh This was in another town, so, and I made a day trip out of it. So I made a long walk, and this was a beautiful, beautiful spring day. I mean, all the beech trees had just come out. The whole world was green. And, and I walked, and I was sad, but I kind of lightened up a bit being in nature. Started looking at plants, which was something we had always done together. And, and feeling good. Like, I felt a bit that he was with me on this walk. And the funny thing is, I wanted to, to make it shorter than it ended up being, but then I met some people who say, oh, further down the track there's an owl in a tree. And I thought, okay, I want to see the owl. And so I continued and, you know, skipped the next station and the next station and At the end, I was— I never saw the owl, but at the end I was in a park where I had never been before. Beautiful, like, state park. And, um, oh, and all the time I was looking for a special bird, the wren, because we had in our last conversation on the phone he had promised to show me, sent me some ramps, but I never saw— he always saw them. So I was looking for ramps, okay, and didn't see any. Maybe I did but didn't recognize them. And then, um, I'm coming around the corner, uh, and, oh, I mean, I have to tell you this. Just after he left, for months I had put this poem on the wall at home. It's a famous poem in Denmark, and it's about how hateful lovers can be to each other, but also that they can make up just by looking at each other and, you know, stroking each other's hair. And I prayed that this last verse would come true. I had never told my husband about this poem. I come around the corner on this trip and suddenly smack in my face is this poem carved in stone. I mean, literally carved in stone. And it's— it turns out, I later found out, it's a memorial for the poet. So he'd taken this poem, carved in stone, and I was just, what? It was really like, and the first, because the verse where they mean to each other is in the center, so that's the first thing I saw, and I was like, oh! And then I was just really, you know, I went home, I went to the station, I went on the train, And it wasn't until I sat on the train that it dawned on me that this is, this is too coincidental. This is too coincidental. I mean, I kept prolonging the trip. I felt his presence. And then I just thought, wow. And I thought, okay, if he can send me this, it's okay. And if he sends me this, it's also because he loves me. And I talked to a friend about these thoughts about, is he okay? Could, could he, can he find his way to God? You know what I mean?

Right.

And, and she said, well, if you doubt that, you should read this book. And that was Anisa Mojani's book, Dying to Be Me. And I read it at Pentecost. I think it was sat on my balcony reading this book. And when I got to the sentence of her, you know, telling what she experienced on the other side, the sentence, there is no judgment, it just hit me as completely true. Really, it was like a knowledge in my heart. And I started crying my eyes out. And I was reading, crying, reading, crying. And it was just so releasing because I didn't have to judge him. I didn't have to judge myself. It was just— it really, it was really a turning point. I mean, after this, I had— ever since he died, I, I didn't want to live. Anymore. I just wanted to die so I could get to him and get this sorted out, you know, and to understand things, everything that had happened. But this kind of made me realize that, okay, maybe you should be here anyway, you know, after all, live your life. So it started a lot, it started a lot in me. It was really a turning point.

That's great. That— yeah, that's an excellent book. And Anita's— I think her message and the message we get from NDEs in general is there is no judgment. And now I have to tell you that I think a lot of people would think after everything that your husband put you through, that a lot of people would say, I would never be able to forgive him. I would, I would. So your, your resilience and your, and your enduring love for him is is admirable.

Well, you know, um, I have kept having new realizations in this. I mean, it's a long process. I, um, of course I've gone over things a million times in my mind, and I had, you know, 'Could I have acted differently?' And yes, of course you can always act differently, but I can kind of see that given the circumstances, I couldn't have acted differently back then, right? Uh, and, and that's one thing I realized really, and that is that every one of us in any given situation We're doing it, we're doing it as good as we can, you know, depending on the insight we have or don't have in ourselves and in others. Yes, I mean, I mean, I mean, you can always get wiser about something, but, but then you should kind of forgive your yourself, because back then, you didn't know what you know now.

That's a great point. Yeah, that's a very good point. We have to forgive, forgive others, and also forgive ourselves. And sometimes we're the hardest on ourselves. You know, what you went through with your, your husband and his ex, again, I think any, any woman or any person listening can definitely relate to what you're calling jealousy is just a normal response. I think that's perfectly understandable. And then to be— to feel rejected by your husband at the time when, you know, you felt like—

rejected, and at the same time, he wanted me there. So it's so ambiguous, right? But I mean, we mustn't forget, he was in an extreme circumstance himself, you know.

Sure. And that's, that's very understanding of you to realize that. But again, I think for the average human being, we would say, okay, well, if you don't want me, then I don't want you. You're a very understanding person. And so you, as you said, that your forgiveness process began even before he passed. But I can only imagine how terrible it must have felt to, you know, to not be involved in the funeral arrangements and to be frozen out by the friends and not all that you could have, you could have held that resentment for a very long time.

Well, I had to deal with it at some time, it prolonged the grief process. And I tried to approach some of them to get some clarity, and, and they weren't really interested in talking about things. So, but I made an effort. Yes, because I think we should all get a chance to, to get wiser. But, uh, but if people don't want to have dialogue, then, then it stops there, right? What another thing about forgiveness is I think it's very, very important to know that there's a huge difference between forgiving the actions of the person and forgiving the person.

Hmm, talk about that.

Well, I mean, I've talked to people about forgiveness a lot, and they find it hard to forgive someone because, uh, my mother was so mean to me, or, you know, people have had terrible experiences and, and often from loved ones, or, you know, and I, I just think, and that's, and they say it's, I can never forgive him or her, or, you know, and I think it's just so important to, to differ between the actions and the person. Because as I said, there are lots of actions you shouldn't— that are unacceptable. I mean, you shouldn't forgive violence, you know, it shouldn't be accepted. But you can forgive the violator, or you call it the— yeah.

The perpetrator, sure.

Because we are all in— I mean, it's not easy, but actually it, it also releases yourself. I remember at one point, maybe it was that day when I got that note from the lawyer about the not coming to the funeral, maybe. But I remember I'm quite conscious of at some point in those first 6 months or later, I felt, I felt his hatred so enormous. And I, you know, you're inclined to hate back, you know what I mean?

Right?

You get really angry and you want to hit back. And it's, it's, and of course, you can do that verbally. But I remember at one point, clearly, I was at a crossroad. In my mind. Because should I just go on hating him? Should I just say all our love was fake? Which I don't think it was, because I realized along the way that when I felt he had been lying to me, he had actually been lying to himself. He had been lying to himself. He had— I mean, he had what do you call it, not dealt with his omissions. Yes. And like they caught up with him in my— maybe in terms of me saying, hey, what about, what about love? What about, you know, right? I remember it was tempting to say, okay, he's just— I was just married to a monster. I'll hate him till the day I die, and I'll move on. But I knew I wouldn't move on because then you become bitter.

Yeah.

And he has given me— and I haven't had time to tell you, I don't have now— but he has given me so much. I mean, I mean, all those years, uh, I mean, he is the love of my life. And I'd always felt that he and I were supposed to do something together. And even though when times were rough and during his depression, some— it's contagious sometimes when someone is depressed for 6 months in a row.

Sure.

So maybe at times I might have had the thought, should, should we split? I mean, can I do this? Do I want to grow old with this person? You know what I mean? It's, it's— I'm honest about this. I've had the thought, but every time I very consciously chosen to stay because I always felt there was something we had to do with each other. And as it turns out, actually, I think it was this. It was this process. And that's a new thought. Yes, relatively new, because I read Christian Sonnenberg's A Walk in the Physical, and I started thinking, could this have all been planned? Yes. Uh, and it's a— yeah, it's, it's, it's strange. Um, because the thing is, I'm very happy today. I mean, I think I'm happier than I've ever been in my life. I'm happy when I wake up in the morning, and I don't know where to go in my life right now, but I'm kind of taking one day at a time and seeing what comes up. I mean, something has really changed recently, also after reading A Walk in the Physical that when I read that book, it was as if the last bits and pieces with me and my husband fell into place. I can't say exactly what sentence and what page, but I just was very moved when I read it, right? And, and it was, uh, gave me peace. And it's so funny because, um, sorry, I have to cough. Sometime last year, um, I was getting back on track, sort of, yeah. And, uh, and then there was this— it was so strange because I had this nagging feeling of guilt that I, I've had that ever since the whole thing started, I hadn't been able to place it. You know, I'd gone through everything in my mind. Was it about the divorce? Was it about this or that? You know, I had gone through everything and I couldn't place it. And then sometime last year, I just realized that this feeling of guilt was towards myself. And this may sound strange, but it was— I had allowed myself to almost lose myself. I had been a doormat. I mean, not by choice. Well, yes, by choice, but I had chosen to stay in it for so long that I almost lost myself. It was only my huge anger at the end that saved me, I think. And then I, then I thought, so it's maybe that's about self-love actually. But then I thought, if you're— when you're a doormat and if you keep being a doormat, when actually at the same time you keep the other one who is the boot or whatever to keep him locked in the role of the boot. So, and I mean, that could explain a feeling of guilt, if you know what I mean, because I'm not taking my own action. I'm also keeping him in a role that's not pleasant for him.

That's a, that's a very good realization. And that's something, you know, again, we have to, we have to On the one hand, you know, you're, you're showing him love and you're honoring your commitment. But on the other hand, you're not setting appropriate— you were not setting appropriate boundaries. And that's what you realize is like, I allowed myself to almost lose myself. So self-care is very important. And we have to balance all these things out. And in relationship, you know, at what point is it— am I expressing love to the other person? At what point am I giving up my own agency and my— and taking care of myself. So you've gone through that process. And I love the fact that, you know, you've taken these lessons from people like Christian Sundberg with A Walk in the Physical and Nita Moorjani, and said, how can I apply those to my life? And how can I view this, what some people view as a terrible tragedy of my husband, you know, contracting cancer, and leaving me and all those things, And how can I turn this into something positive? How can I take this and, and, and use it to mold myself into a better person, which is exactly what you've done. And as you said, today, you're a happy person, and you're a fulfilled person. So that's an awesome, awesome story.

It's funny you say that thing about a better person. Because sometime last year, I had this dream. Where I was with my husband and there was peace between us. He was ill and I was saying to him, I'm so sorry you got so ill. And he was— and his answer was completely neutral. Maybe it has made you a better human being. And then I woke up, you know, I feel like, oh wow. Yeah. And, and, and I— well, at the time I had the dream, I, I was a bit like 'Well, what about yourself? Did you learn something?' But the more I thought about it, I thought, 'Yeah, it could be. That's right, because I've learned to forgive.' And that's a— and okay, I don't prefer the term 'a better human being.' I would rather say that you become better at being a human being. Yeah, yeah. But, but it was true. There's a truth in it. And it's— I just have to tell you something strange too, because earlier this year, in January, I was— one day I was thinking about his ex, and I was thinking about her with peace. And, and also with the thought that even our— what do you call it— adversaries, adversaries, are here, uh, to teach us something profound.

Less— I was just—

but listen, listen, later that week I was told that she was dead. Stranger. And I was, I was so happy that I had that thought before.

Yes.

She passed because—

well, I know we're actually coming to the end of our time. I want to thank you so much for being here today. I want to thank you for sharing such a deeply personal story. And I appreciate your selflessness in doing this, because you and I have been talking for a couple of months now to set this up. And sure you weren't— you first, you weren't really sure if you wanted to share it. I know you were nervous about it. You've done a wonderful job of telling your story. I know it's going to be an inspiration to people.

Well, it's hard to keep clear of getting lost in details. And there's, of course, a lot more to this story than I've told. And something I actually planned to say at the very beginning was that whatever I'm going to tell you, then it's important to know that I'm at peace with these people now. Yes, I really am. And, and I think, I think there's, well, this, this growth in this, and I think there's a purpose with this.

Absolutely. Absolutely. 100%. Again, thanks for being here today, and thanks for sharing this, and enjoy the rest of your day.

You're welcome. I hope it can help someone.

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