Over 100 Doctors, Endless Pain, and Unbreakable Hope: Barby Ingle’s Story of Survival

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. And today I've got with me Barbie Engel, I'm going to read Barbie's bio, and then we're going to have a conversation like we always do. Barbie, she's a best-selling author, a reality personality. She lives with multiple rare and chronic diseases, and I'm going to try to get these right: reflex sympathetic dystrophy, mygrolepsy, PAL-BAR2-Var, endometriosis, and other pain disorders. Barbie is a chronic pain educator. She's a patient advocate. And she's president of the International Pain Foundation. She's also a motivational speaker, and she's a bestselling author on pain topics. Barbie was living a dream. She trained to perform cheerleading, dance, and gymnastics starting at age 4 through college. Straight out of college, she started her own cheer dance training company. And a year later, she was hired by Washington State University as the head spirit program coach. She's been battling chronic pain since 1977. First with endometriosis, which resulted in a sympathetic dystrophy, in a progressive neuro autoimmune condition that affects multiple systems in her body and needs to be treated early so the disability does not take over. She lost her physical abilities and was bedbound for years, uh, using a wheelchair to get out of bed. It took her 3 years to get a proper diagnosis and another 4 years to get the proper treatment. So Barbie knows firsthand how hard it is to continue looking for relief, for perfect answers, and then coming up against healthcare professionals who blow you off or don't believe what you're saying. Could be actually what you're experiencing. So as she searched for a cure, as she's searching for a cure, she's become her own best advocate. And she works sharing information so that others do not have the same life struggles that she has. Even after seeing over 100 healthcare professionals, having major surgeries she didn't need, having complications such as internal bleeding, medication interactions, kidney stones, tumors, severe constipation, and more, Barbie never gave up or gave in. She was tested to her limits, and she realized that they are past the boundaries that she placed on herself. Barbie puts it, I had to become the chief of staff of my own medical team. And she says, if I can do it, anyone can. We just need support and hope. So Barbie, I thank you for being here today with Grief to Growth.

Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. And great job on trying to pronounce those diseases, rare diseases. There's 7,000. So You did a really good job trying to pronounce the ones that I have. The only— dystrophy, you said dystrophy, which I kind of like dystrophy better.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then the— you said PALV-ER or something like that, and that's PAL-B. It's like spelled out.

Okay. PAL-B.

There is short for variant, and that's breast cancer.

Okay, okay.

So specific genetic breast cancer.

Okay, now these things came on you after you were a professional cheerleader, right?

Yes.

Okay, and was it all at once, or tell me how this, how this progressed.

So, uh, endometriosis came first, and that is something that women deal with. It's when your uterus grows inside of your body and starts attaching to other organs into the abdomen wall. And that was an experience for me, but I got through it and passed it and had to undergo multiple surgeries, treatments, medications, and felt like I conquered the world. But in that time, I still was able to fight my way through, and it didn't affect work as much as, you know, it could have. And, and then I was like, yes, I conquered the world. And, and God said, no, you didn't. You're still not on the right path. And starts dropping bigger boulders. So next was Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy, and that's the one that was the worst. I had had injuries as an athlete throughout my life, and it was always easy to overcome. RSD was definitely not easy to overcome, and it actually took me from riding around in limousines and private jets and on top of the world, living my dreams, taking life for granted, to having nothing. I lost my first marriage, my house, my health, finances. Um, I went from on top of the world to food stamps and had to start over. And, um, that was definitely something that hit me the hardest. And then secondary to that, all these other things started developing, like the microlepsy, which is seizures connected to migraines. The migraines are connected to the reflex sympathetic dystrophy. And, um, so that kind of just spiraled. The other things came after. RSD really triggered my body to attack itself. So everything I was facing, um, in my genes and in lifestyle and environment started attacking.

Yeah. So, um, I can— I can't even imagine what that must have been like to have one really bad thing and, and feel like you've gotten over that and have these other things, you know, start coming on you. So what was that like when you started dealing with the medical community?

When I was going through endometriosis, I never really stopped to pay attention. When I developed RSD, I knew I wouldn't give up the life that I had, and so I was fighting to get that back. And, you know, going from doctor to doctor, provider to provider, I was doing what they told me to do. I was not taking responsibility. I was putting it all on them. Fix me, fix me, fix me. I would go in crying and just saying, it hurts, fix me. And they didn't have really anything to go on because I wasn't able to speak to them correctly. I wish that was taught to us in, in even elementary school. Start teaching the vocabulary and things that we'll need if we do develop a chronic illness. Or a loved one develops a chronic illness, because it's 1 in 3 people that are going to face something that's, that's dramatic and, and tragic like this, and we're not ready. And so I had to become my own best advocate. I had to start learning to speak the same language. I had to learn that the medical system is working as designed, which is poorly, and that our doctors are really smart They're very educated, but most of them choose a specialty, so they don't know— with 7,000 rare diseases, they don't know all the diseases. So they could be a neurologist, but they might specialize in multiple sclerosis. And even though RSD, you need a neurologist on your team, you have to find one that's specialized in your condition, not just a neurologist. So you can get started by going to the correct doctor, but if they didn't study that specialty, that rare disease, they're still not going to be able to help you. And I didn't understand that. And so it took me 43 doctors to get to the right doctor.

43?

Yeah, yeah. I've seen over 100.

Yeah, I, I have, um, I have friends that have some, some rare conditions, um, and I know they, they talk about the frustration of trying to get the doctor to understand, to believe them, to really get to know them as a person, as just seeing them as this particular disease?

Yes. One of the things that was helpful for me, right from the beginning, this was so different. And this was the burning fire pain of RSD. Feels like someone put lighter fluid on you or in your veins and caught you on fire. And you just, you're consumed with putting out the fire. And it's hard to concentrate. But one of the things I started doing was taking notes every day, slept for 20 hours. I, you know, these are the things that I'm experiencing. And after a few months, you start seeing patterns. The thing I didn't do was I didn't share for the first 3 years what I was keeping in my journal. So it wasn't helping the providers, it wasn't helping me. So not— don't just keep notes, but once you start seeing what helps, what hurts, start giving that information. Use those adjectives that you're putting in your journal with your medical providers. Because if I had said burning fire pain from the beginning instead of just pain, it would have launched me in a different direction. And I think I would have gotten treatment sooner, and I think I would have gotten more correct access to care. I got overtreated, undertreated, and mistreated because I didn't have the right vocabulary.

Yeah, that's, that's an awesome, excellent point. And you talked about, you know, being our own advocate. And because a lot of times, we're taught the doctors know everything. We're taught to defer to them, just go in, as you said, say, fix me. And we're not taught to, to try to learn ourselves and be our own advocates.

Exactly. And because of that, that is, that is exactly what we're taught as children. You don't feel good, your mom takes you to the doctor or dad takes you to the doctor and they give you some medicine and you go home and you start feeling better within hours to days. And, you know, they told me after my accident that triggered the RSD to start attacking my body, they told me I'd be better in 3 or 4 days when I went to the hospital. Wow. And here we are later. So, They were wrong. And it took, you know, took the 3 years to get a proper diagnosis. It took another 4 years after that to get the right treatment for myself. And it just was a fight, a struggle, and a challenge the whole way through. And I had— I grieved. I wanted my old life back so bad. It was a full-on grieving process to realize all the things I had lost. And people like, I'm married now and I have a husband who, he didn't know me before. He didn't know what I lost. He just saw me for who I was now in front of him and fell in love with me for what he saw of who I was in my worst moments of my life. So in my head, I'm going through all this grief and in his head he's like, why are you sad? Why are you depressed? You have this amazing life. You are an awesome person. Why can't you see that?

Yeah, yeah, you know, grief is— and grief can come from a lot of things. We think of grief a lot of times associated with, with death. And now you've had some loss in your life also of people. But sometimes people don't understand that losing a lifestyle can be just as grievous of an event. It can cause just the same types of feelings. And I really— it's interesting what you said about your current husband, because he doesn't know the loss. He doesn't know what you had before. He doesn't see that loss, right? He sees you as what you are now. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah, it's, it's incredible if you're not going through the grief how, um, you can see the positives in life. And that's something that takes practice when you are in the midst of the grief. Like, even I, like you said, I lost a lot of people. I'm the, I'm the third oldest living member of our family. There's only 14 of us left. All my grandparents and parents and everybody have passed away. Step-parents have passed away. And that, like, as they passed away, it was sad. And I had that grief in that moment, but it was something I was able to move on and move through. I've lost boyfriends. One was in high school, drinking and driving. He knew he was too drunk to drive, so he asked somebody else that only had 2 beers to drive him home. And that 2 beers was too much, and he head-on collisioned with another car and killed my boyfriend. So I've, I've had grief with losing people in my life as well. Losing my dad in 2016 was a totally different kind of grief. He was our cornerstone in our family. He was the one who taught us our life lessons and, and made sure that, that we were okay. He's the one who got me through mentally and, and, um, and helped me through the grief of losing the life that I had built for myself. And then he was gone. And that took— I mean, even just till the lockdown, till the pandemics, I was still, you know, grieving, you know, 4 years. That every time you said anything about my dad or something happened and it was about my dad or it reminded me of something my dad taught me, I would start crying. I just burst into tears. And it's like, this is not normal to go through so much grief, or is it? You know, with the other people that had passed, when my mom passed the year before, a woman told me, it's okay to cry, Jesus catches your tears. And I'm like, but I'm okay. My mom's in a better place. I had that comfort. With my dad, it was just grief in my cells.

Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, grief is different for every person.. And it's different for every person that we lose because you have a different relationship with them. And I think a lot of times we expect it to be the same. But you know, as you said, even with parents, with one parent, it might be one way, with another parent, it might be another way. And I'm wondering, with all the grief you're going through with the medical things, how did that impact your grief when, when people would pass away? That— how did that work?

It definitely caused me to flare. That's what we call it when the symptoms exacerbate. Right now, since 2009, I've been in and out permission. So, um, I do have to use my wheelchair sometimes, but it's not every day. It's not— I'm, I'm not stuck in bed every single day anymore. But I, um, I do have a treatment that's helpful and, and got me living life again. When I go through the grief, it kind of puts chemicals— not kind of, it does— it puts chemicals into my body physically that causes everything to be heightened, including my emotions. So when you're going through grief, when you're going through depression— which, who wouldn't be depressed if you feel like you've lost everything, or you've lost the anchor in your life, or the tether? So it definitely, um, you go through that, that chemical reaction which exacerbates the symptoms of the diseases that I live with. And so even though it wasn't something that happened to me, it was you know, my father passing away or my mother or my grandmother passing away. It happened to them, but I feel it physically. But I also, if my husband cuts his hand, I, if I see that cut or I see it happen, I have that physical pain. I take on his physical pain. He's like, it doesn't hurt that bad. And I'm like, it's excruciating. Like, what do you mean it doesn't hurt that bad?

Right.

And for me, it's excruciating. And that's how my brain is processing, processing the situation. Even though it's not happening to me. And so it happens when, when I lose somebody, it happens when I see somebody get hurt or injured. My body physically takes that on.

Well, that's just another example of how I believe we're all one. And some people don't really realize that. Some people realize that on a much deeper level. And it sounds like you're one of those people that— and I'm the same way. If I see someone get cut, I don't feel pain, but there's a weird feeling I get like in my stomach, you know, it's just like, I can connect with that. And so when you said when someone passes away, it doesn't happen to me. Well, yeah, everything that happens happens to us, right? It's, it's all from our perspective. So I can understand why you would feel, you know, that intense grief when, when people, you know, leave.

Yeah. And I do. And I think I tried to say it's not happening to me because I'm trying to use my mental tools. Yeah, skills to try to, to try to move through the grief. Right, to the other side. So I try to, to reframe that. That happened to them, so I still have— I'm still here on Earth, I'm in this realm. I still have to do the things that I need to do to live this life to the fullest until it is my time to, to go on to heaven. So I, I try to separate it mentally a little bit to, to help protect myself. No, I keep moving forward.

Yeah, I understand. We do have to have a certain amount of separation. And, you know, it's, it reminds me of, you know, having children. Like with my daughter, you know, anything that happens to her, I feel like I feel it worse than she does, but I can't control her life. So there's this, this thing we have to do with ourselves. I have to say, okay, well, that's her life. You know, I can't control that. But still, it hurts.

Yes. Yeah. And it's okay that it hurts, right?

Right.

It's something that, that it's part of being human. And I believe we are connected. In one of my experiences, I had a near-death experience, my lung collapsed, and it was laying on my heart, it was causing cardiac arrest, that emergency surgery. In that process, my life flashed before me as if I was on my way to heaven. And I woke up in a hospital room thinking, heaven's not as pretty as I thought it was going to be.

Really?

Yes. And, and, but I was actually still here on Earth, but I, my life flashed before me. And what I learned was let go of the stress, let go of the small stuff. The, the thing that matters most here on Earth is human connection. And the, the person that, like, you didn't even think for 2 seconds about, you might have changed their life by smiling at them or holding a door for them or asking if they're okay. Like that 2-second interaction that you here on Earth in this realm, we feel like doesn't matter. That human connection, that networking that we're building matters the most. That is what matters. And, um, even if it's for 2 seconds or, or your whole lifetime somebody's in your life, it all matters.

Yes.

And, and all the stuff that I stressed about, and Dad, how am I gonna eat? I don't even, I don't even have any money anymore. Barbie, every— God will provide you, you just have to trust and believe. And, and, you know, it, it's— he was right. I, I never went a day starving. There was always a resource or something when I need it that comes into my life, and it's because of the networking and the connections and the focus on human connection versus on things and people. I'd rather have a life experience now than an item or something that, that's of value. I would rather have time with a person. Yeah.

So, um, earlier when you talked about the endometriosis and you feel like you kind of got through that, and then you got hit with this other thing, you mentioned like God threw something into your life. So what is— what are your feelings about why these things have happened to you?

Well, I think that we have a life plan and things happen to us to help us fulfill our purpose. So we can't always see it at the time, but when you look back, you can say, if that didn't happen, I wouldn't be where I am today. And I've, I've literally helped save lives, like having patients trying to commit suicide run into the street, and we're physically right there to stop them, help them, and, and continue to get them help. Um, that I wouldn't have been there in that moment, that person would, would have still had the pain that they have and the grief that they have and what they were going through, but I, I wouldn't have been there to help them, and I'm supposed to be. So what I've been through is to help me help other people, and that is my purpose here on Earth. And, and I was taking life for granted when I got sick with RSD. I literally wasn't thinking about life, I was thinking about me. And where am I going to shine and what am I going to do. And now I live more abundantly, not thinking about, oh, what can I get out of this, but where am I supposed to be. Let me stop and think. Let me stop and process. But I— God was giving me signals and he was like, he gave me endometriosis. And not to be mean or harsh or, or put a wrath on me, um, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people. I don't think it has anything to do with that. And I wasn't doing bad things, like I wasn't killing or murdering or hurting people. I just wasn't living my life for my purpose. And so he was saying, here's a sign, here's a sign, here's a sign, and I was ignoring him. And then he said, here's a boulder. Yeah. And it got me to stop and focus on the things that I was here on Earth to focus on. So I stopped wasting time. And time went from being a 24-hour day to living life to your fullest in each moment and taking away the stress and the guilt that people can put on you or that you can accept. Now, when I start to feel like somebody is putting guilt on me, I will like do a physical action where I take that guilt and I just drop it out in front of me and say, that is not for me. That is not my guilt to bear. I, it's, it's, um, it's my way again of coping through, of, you know, I want to come to your birthday party, but I might only be able to stay 5 minutes. And that 5 minutes, I'm going to give you the best me that I can give you because I wanted to be here and I wanted to be in your life. But physically, I might not be able to handle an hour-long or 5-hour-long birthday party, uh, that has all this noise and streamers and fun and dancing. I'm— I will give you what I can give you because I want to have that human connection with you. And knowing that this is moments, instead of just a 24-hour period, what all can you throw into it? Yeah, I'm purposeful and mindful of—

I love what you just said. That reminds me of a client that I'm working with, who's in a really deep grieving process for someone that they just lost, you know, like a month or so ago. And people are putting all these expectations on them. And I was, I was working with them. They said, well, I have to go to this thing this afternoon. People expected me to be there. And I was like, you need to take care of yourself. And I really liked that physical action that you, that you said, I'm just going to take this, and I'm going to drop this. I like, I like that a lot. Because people will, they will put things on you. And when we're in having a physical condition like you are, or we're in deep grief, self-care is the most important thing. And sometimes we have to set boundaries. You know, we talked about all being connected, which is one truth, but there's another truth that says we have to take care of ourselves. So we need to know where and how to set those boundaries, to say to people, I'm just— I'm going to give you what I can give you, but I may not be able to give you that right now.

Absolutely. And, and we forget, like, you need to have a good balance of physical, mental, and spiritual health. And if one of those things is out of balance, it will knock the other parts out of balance. So, you know, it really does take a toll on you And, and wherever you need that self-care, that's where you need to put, put yourself into balance and make sure that that's okay and you're using those tools. And for me, having something actionable that I can do, just— I'm going to drop that right there for, for you, me, whoever, whoever needs to see that. I'm just going to drop that. You don't even have to tell the person you're doing it. You can mentally help yourself by grabbing that, that grief, guilt, whatever it is that's negative, and dropping it away from you. And, and know that you don't have to go to a party. You don't have to go to anything anywhere or, or anything. If you get to go, that's what living on this earth is, and you get to go. And if you get to give it 5 minutes or you get to give it 4 hours, it's okay, right? Everybody's going to be okay. You have to take care of yourself first, just like on an airplane, you put your oxygen on first make sure your children are okay, your immediate family, and then you help other people if you can. That's exactly how God wants us to live, is, is help yourself, help your family, help your friends, help the bigger network. And, and, um, you know, it— part of giving others doesn't mean taking away from what you need to do for yourself first, because you can't fully give you if you're not full.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting, as you say that, I was thinking about when I was a kid in Sunday school, they taught us this acronym, JOY— Jesus, Others, and You. So you're supposed to put Jesus first, and then others, and then yourself, which is not what the Bible says, though, right? It's backwards. But they were, they were teaching this to us. And unfortunately, I see a lot of people still, and especially with women, because I think women are taught even more, it's all about everybody else. And we need to take care of ourselves first.

Yes, absolutely. Yes, it's Jesus, you, oh, others. Yeah, yeah, you know, um, so it— and that's really, to me, that's what the Bible teaches you, is you can't be living for Jesus if you're not taking care of yourself. And, and so that has to come first, and then you can help other people, and you will be able to do that more abundantly once you are in line with yourself. And, and, and it does not mean that, oh, I am not feeling like I'm a 10 out of 10 for, for this area of my life, so I can't help you. No, you can still help other people, but you need to have a focus on your life and yourself and making sure your balance is okay. That is your number one job. And then you have that, you'll have abundance, and you can help other people. And it is, it is a responsibility to help other people, but not over yourself.

Yeah, and I can, I completely agree with you. And I look to, you know, Jesus as an example. And, you know, I think of all the times that Jesus would like disappear, like, where is he? You know, he's off praying, he's off doing— he was taking care of himself because he was giving so much that he had to, he had to sometimes take time to himself to fill up. And so we look at the example, that's, that's the example. And we can, we can only give if we have something to give. And if we burn ourselves out, we can't. And I, you know, you are a perfect example because your body is so sensitive that— but it applies to all of us. If we don't take care of ourselves mentally and emotionally, it's going to eventually reflect in our body, and it's going to, it's going to cause us stress, which you're going to cause— leads to other things.

Absolutely. And a lot of times doctors will say like, what else is going on in your life? What else is happening? You know, it can't just be this physical thing. And you're like, oh, I have stress from this, or I took on the stress from that. Or, um, you know, it's, it's interesting. My father-in-law, he always will say things like, oh, I gotta go help Jeff, or gotta help Susie do these things. And, and I'm like, you don't gotta do it. You're choosing to do it. So reframe it and put it in a positive frame. You get to go help these people and, and hey, you hurt your shoulder. You can't, you can't be helping them. Hopefully they can now turn around. You've helped them. They can help you because you helped them through their tough time. And, um, but if they can't, somebody else can. And, but we're caregivers for him yet he's out caregiving for other people. And we're like, you actually need to care for yourself first. Which will help us not have to care for you as much. Not that we don't love you. We just have to have time to spend on ourselves and caregiving for ourselves as well. So there has to be a balance or you see the trickle effect in the people you're trying to help because you want to be able to help somebody so that they can help somebody. It may not come back to you. That person's help may not come back to you, but it could go on to help somebody else. And that's the, that's the network that we're all in. That different people can help different people, but we have to help ourselves first.

Yeah. So I want to ask you, so what do you think has made you so resilient? Because I, you know, as I hear your stories, other people hear your story, people are going, I would have given up at that point. I would be done. So what do you— what gets you through this?

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grieftogrowth.com, www.grief2growth.com. Growth.com. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grief2growth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief 2 Growth.

I hear that a lot, and I have reflected on this a lot, and I think part of it is I was born this way. I think also part of it is lifestyle and environment. I, I practiced, practiced. They, my coaches used to tell me in cheerleading, they would say practice makes perfect, and practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes better. And you know, when your team, you're cheering on a team and the football players are down and they're giving their all, but they're losing 50 to 0. And you're still down there on the sidelines smiling and trying to get noise on a third down and get the crowd pumped up. You have to keep smiling through the diversity, adversity, everything you're facing in that moment that feels like it's negative. Well, really, in a football game it doesn't matter, but for me, life is, is my game. Life is where I score my points, and, and my life experiences are points on my, my board. So if I'm alive, I'm still playing this game, and, and it might feel at the time that I'm losing 50 to 0, but my game is not over until I move on to heaven. So I can keep going, and I can turn the game around, and this quarter or 2-minute time period, it might be a losing time, but it's only a moment. And I have the rest of my life with, with this game of life. And that I— so I think that practice made me better, but I also believe that I was born with it. But I don't think all people are, are born with resilience. I think it's something that you have to cultivate and grow in. And it— and so I've done both. And because I practiced my talents given by God, I've done better. But I still have my moments. I still break down and, and cry in grief and, and cry in pain. I just learned to then give myself time to do that and, and get through that. And then, um, pick myself up and use the tools that I've practiced and built to move on to the next thing. And sometimes you have to smile through the grief, even though it's hard. Yeah, God didn't say life was gonna be easy. He said he was going to give us life.

Yeah, you know, you just said something there that, and I reflect on a lot, and I don't have an answer yet. You know, is resilience, is it something that's, that's born in us? Or is it something that we can develop? Or I think it's probably a little bit of both. But I hear so many people say, well, and my daughter passed away when— when— 6 years ago when she was 15 years old. People say, oh, I could never live through that.

And—

or people might look at you and say, I could never do that. And I say, I think that these things reveal what's already in us. I think we don't— we don't get a chance to exercise it. And I tell people, you're stronger than you realize. Because we all— a lot of us have said that, we've made that comment, I could never live through that, I could never— but Humans, we have an amazing spirit. And we'll do what we need to do. And we'll figure, we'll figure out a way. But you know, but there is an option, I guess people do, some people do give up. So it could be a little bit of both, I guess.

Absolutely. And I've lost a lot of friends to suicide due to pain. And it's hard. And when, when I first started losing them to suicide, it's like hard enough to lose someone to an illness. Or an accident that's out of their control, when they choose, like, I no longer can take this pain, who am I to say? I mean, I, I can, I can pray that they're, they're right with God, and maybe that's their path to, to teach us a lesson here on Earth that our medical system's broken. We need to fix it. Um, we need to come up with cures, and we need to come up with options and treatments that, that are more helpful.. And this could be the catalyst to do that, losing that person. Sure. But it ultimately, it ultimately was their choice. And I have, have chose to make a different choice. And I think part of it is this is my purpose. Maybe they fulfilled their purpose on earth. And so they, they feel that, and that, that was how they're supposed to go. It's, it's, I won't know until I get to heaven and all will be revealed. So I try to trust and believe that even though they choose that, to give up, it's not a choice I would make, and it's not a choice I would put on somebody else or make for someone else. If someone said, I want to die, I would talk, I would start a conversation. That's a conversation starter to me. And okay, let's talk about, do you know your purpose? Do you know what you're doing here on Earth? When it's your time to go, you, you will go. But you still have a purpose to fulfill. Have— do you feel like you fulfilled your purpose, or do you feel like you're stuck? And so now you want to give up because you're stuck, or you don't like your situation, and that, that's the way you're choosing to get out of it. There's other ways to get out of it. Have you thought of those? You know, have you thought through it yet? Um, so I would try to talk somebody out of it, is because I'm so passionate about life and living life to the fullest here on Earth. But I also have lost so many friends that I can't judge them for that being their choice. It's sad, it's hard, it gives me grief. And, and, and, you know, I also have to respect and hope and pray that they were doing what was best for them and not just giving up, but really knew that that was was where they wanted to go.

Yeah, well, I think that's a very enlightened point of view, because suicide carries such stigma in our society. And people, you know, will sometimes say that this person has given up, or they were weak because they just chose to take their lives. And, and it carries stigma for the people that are left behind. And I personally believe that we should try as best we can not to judge another person, person's path. We don't know, what their path is. We don't know how that, that taking of their own life might impact somebody else, even in a positive way. So it's not for us. I don't think it's for us to say.

Right. And that's exactly how I feel. And but it did. I didn't start there. I started with anger, right? Grief that these people are committing suicide. One was my best friend. She sent me a box about a month before she passed away with a— I mean, it was like a care package. And each, each item in the package had a sticky note on it with a little message. And I still have some of the items from that box that, that have her little messages on them. But she literally— she— I thought she was doing okay. She got married and the next day jumped out of a 10-story window.

The day after she got married?

The day after she got married. It was like, you, you don't understand Right. You just don't understand. And, and she had me to talk to. She, she— we had talked. She had— before getting married, she was in a women's shelter for being battered.

Wow.

You know, she lived through that. What, what, what happened in that, in that moment that she decided to, to, to— this is it, I'm done. Like, this is the happiest I'll ever be. I'm, I'm married and I fulfilled a goal.

Yeah, well, that's, I think that's another lesson for us. Because I also hear people sometimes when someone around them chooses to take their life, they'll start judging ourselves. I should have known. And there's a perfect example of we don't know, we never know what's going on in someone else's head. And we hear, you know, someone's taken their life and, oh, but they were so happy. You know, we'll hear that. And it just, it just goes to show that we can't We can't know what's going on in someone else's head, right?

And that's between— really, like we say, health, medical is between you and your providers. Um, it kind of— what, what's going on in, in your head is between you and God.

Yeah.

I mean, you— if you have, if you have a, a mental challenge to get through, you, you have people, tools here on Earth, including people to help you through it. But ultimately, if you choose that— is this— is I'm going to choose my time to go. I'm going to be in charge of this moment. Um, you know, we, we really— I don't know if there's anything that we could have done to, to change that person's choice except for offer tools, a listening ear, um, hope and faith. But but we won't know why. And I, and I've come to— I've grown to understand that I won't understand all the whys until I go to heaven, and, and then it will all make sense and it will all be answered. And so I— out of it, the growth I think that most I learned was patience. Patience in knowing that you can't control every situation, you can't control anybody else, you are only responsible for yourself. And unless you're a parent, and then you have to, to be responsible for your child till they're 18. But, and, and most parents are parents far longer, like, you know, responsibility-wise, far longer than 18. But, you know, legally, that's where you have to live too. And, and, you know, then you have to say, all right, it's up to God. And I don't understand, I don't see the picture, but I have faith that it's the right thing.

You know, that's one of the things that I've come to in my, my journey. You know, we were, we were children, we were taught the Bible, it said, you know, that God works together all things for the good of those who love him. I expand that even out to, because it's everybody that God loves, and that's everybody.

So I think, I think everything, even, even if you don't know God, God knows you, right?

And I think I've come to the conclusion— this is, this is not based just on the Bible. This is based upon what near-death experiencers tell us. This is based upon a lot of other things that everything is working out the way it's supposed to be, no matter how it appears. So I agree with you, it's patience. And I love this quote by John Lennon. He said, everything will be okay in the end. And if everything's not okay, it's not the end. And that is, that is the patience that you're talking about. It's like, well, this sucks. But it sucks right now. You know, it's not going to suck forever. And I don't know what's going to come out of this. And that includes everything. As I said, even with someone who chooses to take their life, we don't know. We don't know how that fits into the big picture.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's hard. Like, with, with my dad, we didn't know, like, 4 days before he passed away was his birthday. He turned 71. And my— I was like, I just have this feeling like, I, I should push through my pain physically to get on a plane and, and go. And my siblings all were like, Dad's doing the best he's done in years, don't worry, you have time. And 4 days later he was gone. And I was like, I knew it, like, I knew, I knew, I, I, I had the message, go, go now. And I didn't get— I, I, I listened to people who didn't know who— yeah, who, who said he's fine, he's the best he's been. And was that a gift from God for them to, to be with him feeling like this is the best he's been in years, and they got to experience that? I, I fall on the gift of he taught me everything he knew before that he was supposed to teach me before he passed. What I was supposed to have out of our relationship was complete. And he was able to go without me coming.

Right, right. And then that's that. I love that. It's such a— everything in life is a matter of perspective. So we can choose how we look at things, we can choose the story that we tell ourselves, you know, and there's the fact, you're right, there's a fact that you weren't there when your father passed. That's, that's not changing either way. So you can look at it either as I missed out on that opportunity, or you look at it, that's the way it was supposed to be because he had taught me everything that— and both are equally true and both are equally valid. And you can choose how you feel about that situation.

Exactly. Finding the positive. And I know I am a cheerleader. Like, I find the positive if I'm losing. Yeah, it's— that is something that is a talent and something that I practice, like consciously practice it, so that when an unconscious thing happens, a challenge arises in my life, it's easier to get through because I've practiced even getting through the easy times. I've practiced getting through the hard times. I'm able to get through the hard times easier because I put that practice in consciously. When I don't even know I need it, that skill is there.

Yeah, and you use that word practice a lot, and I do too, and I love it. And the thing is, for me, I am, I am by nature a glass half empty person. I am, I am a pessimist. I'm like, worst case scenario always pops in my head first. So I was talking with a client the other day, and I was giving her some advice, as you know, some things to do. And she said, does this work? And I said, yeah, it works. But it's practice. It's something that you have to work at. So it's not— people can look at you and say, oh, that's just who Barbie is. I could never be that way. I could, I could never do that. And I'm here to tell you, you can. But it's a matter of putting in the effort. It's, it's a daily thing.

Yes. Well, I used to think I was a glass half full person, and through all of the experiences and challenges that I've faced and gone through, I realized that I'm a glass always full person, and the part you can't see is hope. But my glass is always full, and sometimes I need more hope than I have tools and skills and resources of, which is the part everybody else can see. And sometimes I don't need as much hope because I have so many resources, tools, and, and positivity that's filling up my glass. But my glass is always full, it's just not always visible to all the people.

Yes, I— yes, that's fantastic. Yeah.

And I, I don't— I've not Really, once I say that, people go, oh yeah. But yeah, glass half full, half empty. I'm always full. It's never empty.

And the thing is, it's all relative. And this is human nature. It's actually evolutionary. We focus on the problems because that's how our brains are built. So no matter how good things are, we can always find something that's wrong. It's a little bit too hot in here. Until, you know, it's 115 degrees, and then we realized it was great when it was 90. So the thing is, when you have injuries and illnesses and things, then when you're having a good day, it feels like fantastic.

I so connect with that. I so connect with that. In the beginning, I was like, this is the worst pain ever, 10 out of 10. And then I thought it couldn't get worse, and then things would happen and it would get worse. And I would be like, I wish I could have that old 10 back because that 10 wasn't really a 10. I was perceiving it as a 10, but this is, this is now my new normal. This is now my new 10, and that is now a 2. And I would definitely take that, that old 10 back. It definitely puts things into perspective as you face challenges and as you go through challenges. And really, not even— it doesn't have to be a challenge. It could just be living life. It could be the, the best moment of your life, but then you have— you're like, this is the best moment of my life, and, and then something else happens and you're like, this is the best moment of my life.

Yes.

You know, my niece asked me, uh, my, um, some family members have COVID and, and two of them are struggling really bad. They're all in different states, they're all isolated, they just happen to get it. And, um, and my, my niece— I only have one niece But so my niece said— I was talking to her on the phone trying to do mental health with her while, you know, she's seeing her, her parents go through this. And she said, Aunt Barbie, what's the worst thing that's ever happened to you? And she knows— she, I mean, she's, she's 7, but she knows some of the things I've been through. She's seen some of the things I've been through. And, and, but my answer was I haven't faced it yet.

Hmm.

The worst thing that's going to happen to me on this earth is when I go to heaven, which will really be the best thing that ever happens to me. But the worst thing that could happen to me hasn't happened yet.

Hmm.

It was like, whoa. You know, I don't know if a 7-year-old can comprehend that. But that's that when she asked, that was like, what came to me. That's my answer. I've been through a lot of bad things, but the worst thing hasn't happened to me, because to me that would be not living here. But then I'll be with Jesus, and I'll be like, everything is amazing, and I don't have worries, and I don't have health challenges, and I don't have financial issues and, and the things that we stress about in this realm. I, I will, I will be full and whole, and So it will be the best thing for, for my soul. For my physical body, it will be the worst thing because, because I won't be in it.

Yeah. Well, that hasn't happened. That to me says this, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. But I, I don't, I'm getting a practice where I try not to see myself as my body. So my body is something that I have as opposed to who I am. So for me, death will definitely not be the worst thing because I get to see my daughter again. And so that's just, that's just a transition into another phase of life. So I don't know that we know what the worst thing— and this is the thing that, again, my practice is like, I'm trying not to judge things as good or bad, because everything is good and bad. It depends on how you look at it. And as we— as you've gone through all the things that you've gone through, and as we read through your list, we're like, that's horrible. That's, that sounds awful. But now you're an international pain advocate, you're a motivational speaker. You've been on a reality, you know, television show. You're doing all these things because of the, quote, worst things that have happened to you. So I wouldn't say at this point, my daughter's passing was like a great thing. But I wouldn't be doing this if it hadn't been for that. So in that sense, It's a gift, because I believe this is my, this is my purpose. And it's all temporary. I'll see her again, you know.

So yeah, and for her, it will be the blink of an eye, less than a blink of an eye. For you, this is our realm of time that we're currently experiencing. So it definitely is harder to stay here on Earth. I wasn't saying that my body physically, that would be the worst thing, is right, right, not being this body, but my soul, my, my I am is with God in heaven, and I won't have any stress or worry or anything else. So it's like the— it literally is the greatest thing, right? And I get to be with all, all the people that have already passed into heaven. And one day we'll all, you know, all the people that I love and, and want around me will all be together in heaven. Yeah, but we have to fulfill our purpose first, and that is the greatness of living life that God gave us.

Yeah, it's a very, very human thing. And it's always interesting to me because I was raised as a Christian, I was raised in a church, the Bible and everything. And when I was about 14 or 15, I was like, well, if heaven is so great, why does anybody want to go there? And I think it's because we don't really, we don't really believe that it's real. We don't, you know, we don't, we kind of do, but you know, we don't really know, I guess. And once for me, I, when Shayna passed away, I started studying the afterlife and all this, all this stuff. And I've learned so well that I'm like, I don't fear that anymore. In fact, I'm looking forward to it in a way. I have a purpose to fulfill while I'm here. I will fulfill that purpose while I'm here, but nothing really bad can happen to me.

Right? Well, and I remember as a kid, they would be like, you're supposed to fear God. And I was like, no, like, God loves me. Like, why should you fear somebody who, who loves you? You fear him if you are doing harm to yourself or others, that's when you should fear him. But if, if you're living in God's light, there's no need for fear. There's— you, you know, we're here for a purpose, and God gave us free will. He gave us choice. He gave us the ability to fulfill our purpose. All we have to do is take action. And, and, um, back to your body as a vessel, I really— when, like, all this UFO stuff in the last few years has come in into play, I started thinking about like, well, really, Earth is a UFO. Really, my body is a UFO. Like, it's a tool to get me around the sun. And, and I'm on the Earth, which is a vehicle to get me around the sun that like where I get to live my life. But that's what a UFO is like. It's, it's a, it's an object that takes something or somebody around wherever the universe to get. My body is my vessel while I'm here on Earth, but I will be with, with the Almighty, all I am. He is. And I, and so this is just my vehicle that I'm taking right now. I will move on to my, my whatever the next one looks like. I don't know, I imagine it to be a bright light. And, and maybe twinkling stars. I don't know. I don't know what it is. But it will be heaven when I get there.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So what— getting back to the medical aspects. So what would you tell people that are either in chronic pain or have rare disorders or having difficulty getting diagnosed? What are some things that they can do? What's some advice you could give?

Practical advice would be learn about the condition you have. If you're not yet diagnosed, it means what they— you're idiopathic is what they call it. They don't understand it yet. That doesn't mean it's not real or that you're not going through it. It just means that the doctors haven't figured it out yet. Keep moving forward. Learn as much as you can. Make a journal, uh, create an oasis around you.. And whether that be you're bedbound, create that oasis around you in bed. What tools and things can you have around you in, in that space? If you're able to get up and be ambulatory and, and live, you know, more fully in, in a physical capacity, take advantage of those tools. Don't feel the guilt of someone saying, oh, you don't need to be in a wheelchair, because they feel awkward of you riding in a wheelchair. So then you stop living and stop doing get in the wheelchair, show them that you can be more and you can do more with that tool, or whatever tool it is, a cane or a medication or surgery, whatever it is that, that can help you live more life and fulfill your purpose. Take control of that and know that there's great reason for hope. There is help, and all you have to do is reach out and seek out. It's there.

That's awesome. Um, one of the questions I had asked you for, some questions, uh, before we started this, and one of the questions was, how can people save thousands on their medical bills? So that's something that's of interest to all of us because we all deal with this crazy medical system that you said is working as designed. I'd like you to elaborate on that also. So two questions. First, how can we save on our medical bills? And why, why is our system so screwed up?

So this is one of my favorite topics, medical bills. I have had over a million dollars in medical bills, and I am not in debt. I found the way to navigate the system. So this is something that you can do to help with your medical bills. First thing is, if you don't have insurance, everything's negotiable. Find out what you can do. Can, can you make payments over time? Can they give you a cash price or a charity price? Can the resources in your life help you out? Everything's negotiable. If you have insurance, insurance companies are designed to negotiate for you. So sometimes they work in your favor, sometimes they don't. They, they do practices such as prior authorization where they delay your care so that they save money, which I really don't under— it saves one department money, but it doesn't save the other department money because you can worsen your symptoms in that moment or time because they're delaying your care. So it's an odd thing that they do. It's an odd tool they use. But it saves one department money, so that department gets a pat on the back while the other department's going, how do we help this person? Yeah, but every doctor sends you a bill. Your insurance company will send you what they call an explanation of benefits, EOB, because that's hard to say. EOBs come— doctors will send you the bill before they get the information back from your insurance for what your insurance negotiated for you.

Mm-hmm.

If you do not pay the— do not feel the pressure to pay that bill immediately. Wait for your explanation of benefits. If your name is spelled incorrectly, if your date of birth is incorrect, if the codes that they're putting down for the treatments that they're giving you or office visits they're giving you is incorrect, any of those things, even one letter in your name can charge— can, can affect what they charge you and what they negotiate for you. So check, make sure your address, your information, all your data is correct on every single bill, and then pay what the insurance company says to pay. Now, if that's still too high, know that it's negotiable. You can work it out. You can pay $10 or $5 a month on that bill over time and get it paid off. Usually, if they see in good faith that you're trying to pay it down, they will negotiate or just let the rest of the bill go. And that has happened. Um, prior to knowing that, that you, you can do this, I would just try to pay every bill until I ran out of money, and then I didn't have money to pay my rent or, you know, do, do the things I needed to do because I was trying to pay off these medical bills. And once you pay them, you're not going to get the money back. So make sure that you wait for your EOB If it says patient responsibility zero on your EOB, circle it, take a photocopy, send it in with the bill, and show the doctor that you owe zero. They stop billing you. They just need to update their system, and they need to know that you know how to read a bill. And just because they're saying that this is the bill, that's not the bill. That's the— that's what they are reporting. Before it's negotiated on your behalf. Every single bill has to go through a negotiation process.

Yeah, that's a lot of really good advice. And I could just— a little anecdote. My wife had knee surgery, knee replacements last year. And we got, we got our portion of it back. And we thought it was going to be the entire deductible. But when she called to talk to them about it, they were like, well, if you pay it all right now, we'll give you— it was like a 40% discount. For paying cash. And we're like, so we thought, okay, this is our deductible. This is what we're responsible for. You're like, no, if you just pay it all right now, we'll give you— so it's a huge discount.

So it's huge.

If you get a big bill, always, always at least talk to them about it. You know, I think that's great advice.

And absolutely.

Yeah.

I got a bill. I, I had my rib taken out twice, the same rib. But, um, the second bill was $18,000, and that was like my largest bill at that moment. Like, they trickled in, but this $18,000, and I, I was— I couldn't— I was like, I, I'm out of money. I can't pay this. Like, I've already sold everything I have. I don't, I don't have the ability to do this. And, um, I saw on TV— is when Katrina happened, the, the hurricane back in 2005. And, or 2004. And I said, all these churches are donating all this money to all these families. They're not even asking if they belong to a church or they're Christian or anything. I was like, I should ask my church to see if they can help me. And even after my insurance, I still owed $18,000. And my church stepped in and showed me how to negotiate.

Oh, wow. Wow.

And so, like, I— my $18,000 bill got down to zero.

Wow, that's awesome.

And so even if, if they can help you with funds, great. If they can help you with negotiations, even after you think it's negotiated, the word no is just the beginning of a negotiation. Yeah, there's always a way. Just keep searching and you'll find it.

Yeah, I think that's really important. So you, again, you mentioned earlier that the medical system is working as designed. What did you mean by that?

It's working exactly as designed. It's designed to make the insurance companies and the doctors and providers lots of money, and it's designed for acute care, which means, uh, short-term. You break your arm, you need stitches, you cut your hand on, on making dinner. It's designed to take care of those acute situations that are now— they need attention. It is not designed for long-term care. Which is the most expensive care. So not all— not only, um, are, are we faced with these large bill challenges and life devastation with, with all the aspects of our life, but the, the system is not designed to take care of chronically ill people. And because of that, it's— it's— for instance, a veterinarian is able to take care of lots of species and all different types of traumas. If, if it— if the animal has cancer, they know how to treat it. If the animal has a punctured lung, they know how to treat it. If the animal has diabetes, they know how to treat it. But when it comes to humans, every single health professional has their specialty. So if they don't know about it, they, they, they'll say things like, well, this is all that— or, I have nothing that can help you, or, there's nothing that can help you. Which is really heavy.

Yes, absolutely.

Just because a doctor says, I have nothing to help you, I have nothing else to offer you, it just means that that tool or resource is, is not for you. But there's other providers out there that are willing to learn with you or already have the skills and knowledge to help you even though you have a chronic long-term disease or condition. Our system just isn't set up to communicate that or teach us how to find it. But know that there is hope and is help. And that's one of the things that I do with International Pain Foundation is help patients find the providers that they need for whatever condition that they're going through that's chronic, because they— those specialists exist. It's just how do you find the one specialist for you that's able to help you? They are out there. Sometimes it takes 5 phone calls. Sometimes it takes 100 phone calls. You just have to keep going. And most people stop, as we discussed before. This is something that— it's, it's— if a boulder is placed in front of you, there's, there's a million ways to get around it. You just have to start, take action. And the people who take action get the hope and the help that they need. The people who just let it stop them and, and paralyze them Don't. And even the smallest step forward, around, up, over, through, under, whatever way it takes to get around that obstacle or challenge, that's a step moving forward to, to be on the right path and get the help that you need. But our system's not designed for that. It's not designed to teach it. The most time you get with a provider on average is, is 10 to 15 minutes, right? And you don't even know how to talk to them with during that 10 to 15 minutes. So they're going to lead the conversation. Learn how to lead the conversation. Go in with a one-pager that talks, that has your questions ahead of time so you don't forget to ask your questions because the doctor took you on a different path, um, because they are in a hurry to get to the next patient. So it's, it's just, it's working as designed. It's making a lot of people rich, but it's not helping give people life back in most instances.

Yes. And as you were saying that, I was thinking it sounds like the International Pain Foundation is a great resource. Is it only for people in pain, or they people with other chronic conditions, can they take advantage of it?

Uh, we, we focus on people with chronic conditions that involve pain.

Okay.

But, um, our Find a Provider resource— we have two different resources— and you can actually not have chronic pain and still find a great provider. You just, you put in whatever your, um, condition is, or if you have an ICD code, which is medical language that takes time to learn, but you can find it on your, your EOBs. You can find, find those ICD codes. If you put those in, we have an app on our site that can help you. You put in your private information and it tells you the providers in your area, and you can say I'm willing to travel if you're able to travel. And it also can tell you the about, about price range of every provider that treats that type of condition that you're looking at.

That sounds like a great resource. So it's International Pain Foundation. Do you know the website offhand?

Yeah, internationalpain.org is the website, and it's under resources, find a provider. And we have the AMA on there, but then we also have another one that's powered by Amino Health. Took— they— AMA is only medical providers that are part of the AMA. Right, so it's kind of like buying your way onto a list type of situation. The, the Amino app, you cannot buy your way into this app. They take actual data, they data mined it, and taking the patient's names off, they, they went through the ICD codes, the charges, the cost, what insurance companies they're paying, and they put it all into this massive AI system artificial intelligence system that data mines it for you. And you cannot buy your way to the top of the list. It literally tells you this is what it is, and these are the providers that can help you with this specific thing that you need medically.

That sounds fantastic.

I like that a lot.

Yeah, I, I'm just thinking of a particular friend right now that's got some sort of dystrophy. I don't, I don't know the particular one because there's so many of them.

So many.

Yeah. And, you know, just struggling with different doctors because she has different conditions. And, you know, just really feeling beaten up and lost, and like there's nobody there that really understands her, no one there to really help her. And it's, and it's just one thing after another. So I want people to know about this resource that hopefully we can get people hope, because you said you have to keep moving forward. That unfortunately, this help doesn't come to us a lot of times. The The doctors are not going to advocate for us. We're just a number on a chart. They see us for 10 or 15 minutes and they don't really get to know us most of the time.

Most medical providers have over 2,000 patients that they're caring for. Wow.

Yeah.

Like, how do they know your name? They don't even remember you from— you're like, I told you this last time I was here. Right, right. That's— and they're seeing, you know, 1,000 to 2,000 patients in a month, especially ER doctors, hospitalists, internists. You know, they see even more than that. Yeah. Even your primary care doctor— ask your primary care doctor how many patients they have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And a lot of primary care doctors are getting out of it because it's so overwhelming. I was talking to the doctor I went to for several years, and she was telling me, you know, how tough it is to be a primary care doctor now. So I'm not here, and I don't think you are, to bash doctors. They're good people trying to do what they can do, but they're, they're limited. They're, they're human. And we've been taught to put them on a pedestal and think they know everything, and they can't.

They're not. They're not. They shouldn't be on a pedestal. They should be used as a resource and a tool, right? And if that is the right tool for you, that's amazing. My primary care doctor, he went to what they call concierge medicine. And he dropped down to 600 patients and he doesn't take any extra patients. Like, he stopped at 600. He's like, this is what I need to maintain the, the life that I need to, to pay all my bills and take care of my family and my children. I'm going to stick with 600 patients so I can give them better care.

It still sounds like a lot, but yeah, it's a step in the right direction, right?

It's a step in the right direction. But you got to think, like, a third of us need a lot of attention Right. Third of us hardly ever go to the doctor, and then the rest are, are in between. But it gives better care for the third of us that need more care.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Well, I have to ask you, we're kind of running out of time. I could talk to you all day, but I want to ask you about your reality show, what that was like.

It was very interesting. It taught me that reality is not real. You see these shows, you're like, how could they do that? Like, is this quite real? There's a seed of truth in all of it, but then there's a producer and a writer, even on reality shows, that by the 5th or 6th take, you're not even saying it in your own words. You're, you're acting at that point. So, um, so know that there is a seed of truth in it, but then they build a story around it to make it interesting and entertaining for the viewers. Um, but like my biggest show, um, I guess audience-wise was on TLC. And, um, after the producers, they came and took over our house and put up all the cameras and had, you know, someone following me telling me what to say off camera. And, um, and by the time they left and packed up, I went through a morning of like, can I trust my own words? Am I strong enough? Am I smart enough to get through this because the producer makes you sound so good, that writer makes you sound so good, um, or whatever it is that they want you to say. And you're saying stuff that you don't even know how they're going to edit it and make it into a storyline, right? But they're— it's a job and they're paying you. So, so know that when you're watching reality shows, watch it for the entertainment value. Um, it's even, even shows like, um, reality competitions where they're following you around for, for months sometimes, know that even that they, they like will sit you in a room or you'll see them sitting in a chair with, with just a bright light giving like a testimonial, right, about a situation that isn't always filmed immediately. They will film that like days, weeks, months later and work it into a storyline. So Even that testimonial, that's especially where it's given to you. Yeah, um, to match whatever they got on film, it doesn't necessarily match the words that they need, so they have you talking in this testimonial showing something else, and it makes a whole different image of what's going on.

Yeah, a little, little peek behind the scenes. Thanks, I appreciate that.

Yes, but I like, I like doing reality because although it's not real, it gets people to connect to me that wouldn't have heard of me, right? Know my journey or story. And I'm able to plant my own seeds afterwards because they'll contact me and say, oh, I feel so bad for your husband. And I'm like, he's taken care of, don't worry.

Yeah.

But you know what, how— why are we connecting? What do you need help with? What do I need help with? That we connected because obviously you reached out for a reason.

So tell me, give me the name of your show or your shows.

Uh, well, um, on TLC it was called Extreme Time Cheaters, which when we signed on it was Extreme Time Savers. They changed the name, um, to be more sexy. But, um, Brainstormers was another one I did on the Weather Channel. Um, uh, The Ken and Barbie Show, which was digital reality. We did 9 seasons of that. Um, and I, I was a producer on that, so I had a little more say on that one.

Oh wow, okay. Wow, cool.

But like, we're like, oh, I'm gonna go at this angle, you're gonna go I go at that angle and so that it makes it more interesting for the viewer. So it's not always what exactly what you believe or think, um, but it gets a conversation going.

Yeah.

So, um, but those are some of the big ones. But, um, and then I did, um, Our Pain, which was, uh, on CBS out of Las Vegas. Um, so it's like more regional— regionally shown. But it was all about chronic pain and what chronic pain patients are facing. And, um, that was like a 10-episode series, and I was on 3 of the episodes, um, things like that. So I try to work in my advocacy and my purpose in life, right, and being a cheerleader of hope into the reality. So there's a seed of truth, but I'm hoping that it will make a connection that I can make into a fruit tree later on when it's needed of knowledge.

Awesome, awesome. Well, Barbie, uh, we are running out of time. I like to keep these to around an hour, but it's been really, really great getting to you, how can people find out more about you? Where can people find you?

You can find me personally at barbieingle.com, which is my name, Barbie with a Y, Ingle with an I. And, and, um, and then with the foundation, you— and I'm on all the social medias except for TikTok. I don't do TikTok. Um, but, um, just using my name, you'll find me. And then, and then the International Pain Foundation is also on social medias as well as internationalpain.org. If you are facing a chronic illness of any kind or rare disease and you need some hope and help, that's a great resource to reach out to, to get you going and getting you to be able to take action in your life so you can live a better, fuller life.

Yeah, that sounds like a great resource. I really appreciate you being on Grief to Growth today. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you so much. Take care, Brian D Smith. And if all your— if all your viewers, really quick, if they're getting something out of this like I am, on your podcast, which is the This, please leave a review. Let Brian know how he's doing, how much you enjoy the podcast, what you're getting out of it, and give him 5 stars because he deserves it.

Thanks, Brian. Appreciate that. Have a good one.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful and will come back for future episodes. Brian's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/bethannemcintosh. Patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to growth. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www.grief2growth.com. Brian D Smith.com.

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