Pancakes For Roger-Advice From A Father- Susan L. Combs

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

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Hey everybody, this is Brian back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I've got with me Susan Combs. I'm going to read her bio, and then we'll have a conversation like we always do. She's the president of Combs and Company, a full-service insurance brokerage firm based in New York City. She started the company when she was 26 years old with a drive to do more, better. That's her internal mantra and has resulted in numerous successes and firsts, like being named the youngest national president in the over 85-year history of women in insurance and financial services and the first female Broker of the Year winner for BenefitsPro. She's a Missouri girl in New York— in a New York world, and it's a lesson she's learned during her Midwestern upbringing and 2+ decades in New York City that are the basis of her book. And the insights contained in these pages come from her family, her friends, her colleagues, and life in general. But the most important teachings are from her late father, who the book is named after. It was his steady guidance in life that set Susan's foundation, and it was his passing that inspired her new movement, Pancakes for Roger. And her website is actually pancakesforroger.com. When she's not running her business, trying to help others through their own challenges, you can find her flipping tires at her beloved CrossFit gym supporting the Missouri Tigers, Kansas City Chiefs, and Royals, or slaying the dragons that have come her way. So with that, I want to welcome to Brief Regress Susan Combs.

Thank you so much for having me, Brian.

Yeah, it's really great to have you here. You've got quite a bio. You've had a lot of successes for early in your career.

Yeah, you know, I look all right on paper.

So tell me about the— let's start with your father. We'll start with the title of your book and the title of your website, Pancakes for Roger. So tell me about Roger.

So, you know, my, my dad was a giant in my world. I mean, he was, he was an incredible man. He, um, he was a civilian world, he was the judge, um, but in the military world, he was a major general. Um, but he was kind of, he was a pillar in our community, you know, church board member, confidant, Joint Chiefs of Staff member, you know, husband, father, uncle, you know, grandfather. And, um, but at the end of the day, he was just my dad. Um, but he was a complete and total badass. I mean, he served our armed forces for 39 years and 4 months, serving in 3 different branches. He was a Marine Corps helicopter pilot, um, and then he ultimately passed of Agent Orange-related throat cancer, um, that he was exposed to during his combat days in Vietnam. And he, he passed away, um, August 22nd, August 22nd, 2018. So we're coming up on the 4-year anniversary of his passing, and He, you know, he was one of those guys that was just good when nobody was watching and made me want to just emulate my life after him. I mean, he's mentored a lot of people and I've gotten so many stories about him from people that either encountered him or encountered one of his lessons. And as a child, it's just so rewarding to get those, those kind of nuggets and tidbits from people that take the time to reach out to.

Yeah, sounds like an incredible man. So where did the, where did the title come from, Pancakes for Roger?

So the title kind of came from, um, an encounter I had with my father. Um, as you said, I live in New York City and I have for over 20 years now. Um, but I was very fortunate enough to have, um, set up my company from the very beginning to be remote from the start. So my philosophy has always been, if you have your computer and your phone, you should be able to work anywhere in the world. Um, you know, I have a wonderful, beautiful office that I love, but it's nice to have that flexibility. And we had that flexibility long before COVID and the Zoom days. So I actually moved back to Missouri to help care for my father when, when he was kind of coming to the end of his life. And, you know, he was diagnosed with the agent orange-related cancer in 2008. And we had 10 relatively good years. And then he relapsed twice the last year of his life. So my father and I were very regimented people and Type A's. My dad always said we have 2 Type A's and 2 Type B's in our family, and he and I were the Type A's. And so he and I We just had kind of a schedule going where I get up at 5:00 AM every day. I would check on him. As long as he was good, I would go to the gym and come back from the gym, check on him again. As long as he was still good, then I would go shower, get ready for the day, and then come down and then help him get his tube feeding. Um, since he had a, uh, that's how he got his nutrition, um, and get him settled in his recliner for the rest of the day. And I would just literally sit on the floor at the coffee table in my childhood home working all day. And then if he needed something, I would help him. But one morning he beat me to the table. I was coming down from, from showering and I went to his hospital bed because he was on hospice and we were fortunate enough to have a great long-term care policy where he could, we could have that coverage at home so he could be around the things he loved and the people he loved when his, his time was, was limited. And he wasn't at his hospital bed and around the corner, and he was in the kitchen and he had his placemat and there was the place setting and he was getting all set up. And I looked at him and I said, Dad, what are you doing? Doing? And he said, well, I want pancakes for breakfast. And it just— it broke my heart. I mean, if you've— I'm sure you've had people that listen to this show that have experienced people with feeding tubes. And my dad also was on oxygen full-time too, and all the nutrition has to go through the feeding tube. Um, and so pancakes is just a request that can't get fulfilled. And I looked at him, I said, oh Dad, I said, there's nothing in this world that I want to give you than pancakes, but You know, we're on hospice, you have a DNR, and if you choke, we're done here. I just don't think we're quite ready to be done. And he looked at me, said, oh yes, I can. Matt said I could. And Matt's my brother, and he's a nurse, and he wasn't there that morning. So I knew we were dealing with some confusion from his oxygen level getting too low. So I looked at him, I said, well, let me see what I can do. And I went and took his feeding tube formula, heated it up for 14 seconds The general never wanted 13 or 15. It had to be 14. And I brought it back over to the table and I set down the pitcher on the table and he said, what's that? And I said, well, that's your syrup. And he looked at me and his oxygen levels had started kind of rallying around and he kind of smiled and he said, okay. And so a few short weeks later he passed away. And, um, I came back to New York and I took one day off of work. And my husband said to me, he's like, why don't we go have some pancakes for your dad? And so that is, I was actually looking on social media this morning trying to see when that first picture of the Pancakes for Roger was taken. It was on August 26th. And so my husband took a picture of me enjoying pancakes. I relayed the story and saying, you know, it is just the little things in life that really can make such a big impact and our lives can all change in a blink of an eye. Things like enjoying a stack of pancakes could just be taken away from us. So, if you are so inclined, go have some Pancakes for Roger and remember to appreciate all the little things in your life. So that's kind of the premise, but then it really kind of turned into a movement where every, um, people started having pancakes all over the world and having pancakes and, and saying, you know, go have some pancakes for Roger. And, um, then his birthday was, uh, February 22nd. So then what we started doing is on the month of February, every pancake-loving picture we get with people using the hashtag Pancakes for Roger, my company makes a donation to the Veterans Clinic at the University of Missouri Law School. So they provide free legal services for veterans and their families navigating the VA claims and appeals process. So this past year, it just really exploded. We hit all 50 states, we got 18 countries, and then the book came out on his birthday, which was 2/22/22 this year. So if you believe in numerology, that's an angel number. And so that's kind of a cool, cool coincidence, if you will. So, um, so that's kind of how it got going. And then the, the Slaying Dragons part, I fought for that. I was like, I, I woke up at 2 AM and I was— because we were thinking Pancake Saraj or a mentorship guide for life, and And then I woke up at 2:00 AM and I was like, Mentorship Guide for Slaying Dragons. And my team was like, I don't know, Susan. I don't, I don't know. And I said, you don't know me yet. You don't know me really well. As soon as you know me, you know, this is right. And so I started testing the, um, the full title out on some friends. And, um, my girlfriend Kat, uh, she relayed a story to me about when she was graduating high school and the superintendent was speaking and was saying, you know, I know you guys want to go out and spread your wings and slay some dragons, but why don't we try lizards to start. And she said, I'm sitting there as an 18-year-old kid saying, I'm gonna go fucking slay a dragon, I'm not gonna slay a stupid lizard. And so when she told me that, I was like, that's got to be it. That's got to be it. So, and that's, I mean, and all the dragon signifies is just an obstacle in your life. I mean, all of us have trials and tribulations, all of us have goals that we set that we want to achieve. A lot of things, a lot of us have things that we've overcome. You know, we can have different past experiences with, you know, with abuse, or just with just lofty things that we want to achieve, whether it's graduating college, getting a master's degree, getting a different designation. And so those are just dragons that we all kind of slay along the way.

Yeah, I love it. I love, I love the title. I love the story behind, behind the title. Um, tell me about growing up with your father. What was that like?

Yeah, so I graduated— or I was— so I grew up in a town of 986 people in the northwest corner of Missouri where I grew up. Um, far, far different than New York City with what I think we have 8.5 million people now here. Um, But I grew up in a small farming community. I grew up 6 miles away from my family's farms that we still manage. And my dad was literally born on the farm. And even though, you know, my father had seen the world and he really exposed us to the world. I mean, my mother was also a travel agent and my dad traveled a lot for work with the military. And they would, they let us know that the world was bigger than our backyard. But if we wanted to come back to our backyard at any given time, There was no shame in that. So I think my dad had hopes and dreams of me, you know, finding a boy in King City, Missouri and settling down and buying a yellow house with a porch swing and buying some horses. And I did pretty much the opposite. So, but you know, my dad and I always had, we would always say, give me the Reader's Digest version. So we always said that my dad and I could achieve in a 10-minute conversation what people could do in 3 weeks. So we just kind of got to the point, we had our heads in the game and we just communicated really, really well. So when it came time to help helping him, um, with his care when he was on hospice, he kind of gravitated to me. Um, not that the, um, other members of my family weren't so pivotal in, in his journey there, but just, um, our thought process was very, very similar. So I just spoke to him how I'd want somebody to speak to me, and I treated him like a person. And my brother Matt, that is an amazing nurse, he was an oncology nurse for a number of years, and now he's actually a hospice nurse. And a hospice case manager. But for him, with his training, he could compartmentalize what we were doing and helping my dad. And so he treated him more like a patient. And, you know, that's your own protection mechanism because based upon your training and things like that, neither one's right or wrong, but it just, it's different. So I think for us as a family, it was very much a blended different strategies on caretaking, and that's what really worked for us too.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss, and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become. A place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there. Wow, wow, that's, that's, that's amazing. So tell me about, you know, you talk about slaying dragons in the book title. I know you have some advice for women. So what type of advice do you have when it comes to slaying dragons?

Oh, you know, it really depends on the day and depends on the subject matter. Um, but some of the, the biggest lessons— I think one of the best lessons I tell people all the time is drive the car. So that was a big lesson that my dad, uh, passed along to all of us. I have two older brothers, and, um, when you're learning how to drive— I mean, I know you're from the Midwest too, and so, um, I don't know if you grew up on a farm, but when you grew up around the farm, a lot of times we're driving at a much younger age than city kids. So, you know, we're driving it— I mean, hell, I think my dad was driving at like 6 or 7. And, you know, I think first time I drove, I was probably about 10. And so, you know, might just be for farm chores or different things like that. But then when it comes to highway driving, you know, we wait until it's legal, because like I said, my dad was a judge in the county. So we followed the rules on that. But my dad, he used to say he had a speedometer in his pants, like he could just, he just knew, he anticipated, he knew, he could name within 2 miles an hour how fast you were going, which is a blessing and a curse. And especially when you miss curfew one night, because you're hurrying going home. And then we go for a drive and he says, okay, let's make sure your speedometer is really off, which thank God it was and I didn't get in trouble. But, um, when it came to learning how to drive, he would literally jerk the steering wheel and we'd go off the road. And he would always have this cadence in his voice, just drive the car, drive the car, drive the car. Because he used to say, you could be the greatest driver in the world, but you have to anticipate the people around you. And growing up in a rural area where I did, and also like where, you know, you're probably from an Ohio, we have a lot of Amish. And so it's like you could pop over that hill and there could be a horse and buggy that you're not anticipating. There could be farm equipment, there could be livestock, there could be somebody that's just not paying attention. And so my dad used to say, you just have to keep your head about you and just remember to drive the car. So this lesson kind of translated to a lot of things in my life when, you know, I was looking at, you know, doing a big project and sometimes it feels so overwhelming that, oh, I just, it's too much. I can't figure it out. But if you just remember to drive the car break it down into bite-sized nuggets that you can kind of get through and just take step 1, then go to step 2, then go to step 3. Then it just reminds you to kind of keep, you know, put first things first and not get so overwhelmed with things. So that's probably one of the— that's one of the biggest lessons that I pass along to a lot of people. But there's countless others. I mean, the book is separated into 4 sections: self-love, family, and career. So it kind of has different lessons for different areas. So whatever you're needing at the time, you can kind of you know, pick and play type of thing.

You said self, love, family, family, and career. Okay, so let's, let's go through each of those. Tell me, what do you say about self?

Uh, well, so self, I mean, drive the car really kind of comes back to self and, um, kind of looking at things. I mean, one of the things I would say on, on love, uh, that's kind of my, my next session. I think a lot of times with love, especially with, um, and I guess I shouldn't just say especially with women, but I think sometimes think about all the things that we're buy, like the social media, the rom-coms, like the Hallmark movies, like that we have such grandiose ideas about how a relationship can be. And I think it's, it's not realistic. And I have a wonderful husband. I mean, I had a starter husband, he was great in his own way. But he wasn't my forever guy. But my husband that I'm with now, we've been together 18 years, and he just senses who I am. And it's And I think that a lot of times people settle in relationships because they don't really know what a good relationship is until you're in it. So I think a lot of times people just settle, not realizing that there's, there can be more to offer. And I think a lot of times when it comes to picking somebody, um, I actually was in Napa speaking at a women's event last month. And I was sharing about how, you know, my mother-in-law, one of the pieces of advice she gave me was like, every trash can has a lid. And, you know, basically meaning there's there's somebody for everybody. And I think sometimes we get stuck in the minutia of there's one true soulmate, and I, I just don't believe that. I believe that there's multiple people that would be very compatible with each of us and that we would live like a very happy life. So, you know, I talk about my husband and that, yeah, do I believe he's my soulmate? Is he my family? Is he my best friend? Yeah, absolutely. But I could find another one tomorrow, and that's not being like braggadocious or arrogant. It's just saying that I know my worth. And I think a lot of times, especially with women, younger women that get married early on, they don't really know themselves and they don't, they don't know what their worth is. And I share a lot that one of the best things that ever happened to my husband and I is we had our first fight about 18 months in and we both behaved poorly. Like he took all of his stuff and he left. I laid on the floor and I cried. And because we just, we were out of our element and we had never had a fight 18 months in. And then I got on a New York City bus and I was looking out the window and it finally clicked for me. And it was I, I want him, but I don't need him. And that's a much different place to be. And it's a much better place to be because then I finally figured out what my worth was and what I brought to the table. And I think sometimes, I mean, I got married the first time at 23. That's far different than the person I married at 32. And I, I just really got a chance to know myself. So I even tell my little cousins, like, they're not allowed to get married until they're 26 is what I always tell them because I'm like, you need to be able to be on your own two feet. And I think if you go from say college and, you know, your parents' payroll, so to speak, and then you go right into a relationship or a long-term relationship, you might not get that chance again to really figure out who you are. And then you hear about the cases where people have been married 20, 25, 30 years and they get a divorce just because they didn't realize who they were. Or like, they, they loved each other when the kids were around, but now when the kids are gone, then they're like, well, I don't, I don't know if I really like you anymore. So it's, it's just kind of understanding those things. So that's kind of a lesson I would say. On love. Um, in terms of career, um, one of the best lessons I think my dad told me was it's important for you to be understood, but more important for you not to be misunderstood. And that's been something that— I mean, I work as an expert witness a lot, um, on real high-end medical malpractice and litigation for trip and fall and workers' comp and things like that. And that has saved me so much because it's putting things into layman's terms getting people to understand, because a lot of times I think we can have not so much our ego, but maybe it's an insecurity where we feel like we need to be, you know, throwing out these big, huge words so that people think we're smart. And I think a lot of times if you use simple language so people can understand you, you don't talk in acronyms, you don't talk in jargon, then you don't have to worry about somebody saying, oh, I really didn't understand that that's what you meant. I thought you meant something else. So that's been a lesson in terms of career. That has been really important to me. And then I would say if I had to pick one of the family ones, it would probably come from my brother Matt. My brother Matt, he's the one in the middle. Our oldest brother David is from our father's first marriage. And one time when I was home for Christmas, Matt said, if we weren't born siblings, we'd never be friends. And, you know, I know you made that face and don't make that face, but a lot of times you were like, ooh, that's mean. And no, but it's not. It's like recognizing the differences because my brothers and I Man, if you met us separately, you'd be like, how the hell are they siblings? I mean, we're just so, so different. I mean, my brother David is like the IT guy. So any computer-related thing, we, you know, we go to him on. He, he tells jokes that are science-based and I'm sitting there saying, I'm glad I'm pretty because I don't know what the hell he's talking about. And then my Matt, my brother Matt is, is the nurse. He's the medical guru. So anytime we need to have like a medical thing, he's crazy empathetic. He's really good at that. I'm I try to be empathetic. I'm more sympathetic, but I feel like I can't truly be empathetic unless I've been in, in those shoes. And but Matt's very, very good on that stuff. So when it came to the medical stuff for my dad, he would just really take the time. And he and I spent some time together. We were helping our brother David out just a few weeks ago, and I got to hear him on the phone with one of his hospice patients' wives. And just— he— and he's wicked funny. He's wicked funny. And just the banter he was having with her and just giving her some real reprieve from caregiving for just a few minutes. And it was just beautiful to be able to witness that. He has no idea. Like, he'll probably listen to this and be like, oh, well, that's kind of cool. But— and then I'm kind of, you know, I was kind of known as the youngest oldest, so I always kind of had my stuff together. And I'm, I'm kind of the fixer of the family. I'm the one, if you want to know what Dad would have thought about a situation, like, you kind of come to me on it, um, now. Um, so, so my role's really shifted quite a bit within the family, but we're just also so different. But I think that sometimes when you take a step back and you understand how each person kind of thinks, those can be little things that just grate on you as a kid. They can even grate on you as an adult. But if you can take like a 30,000-foot view and really kind of look at what we're all good at, then we can tap each other in when it's appropriate, and it just makes it a lot easier. Because I know that I can't handle everything. I know I'm not good at everything. But then I know, like, for example, with Matt and my mother, you know, she's struggling with like a mental health thing or, you know, she's been depressed about our dad being gone. I'm not good at that. I'm so not good at that. And Matt is great on that. And so he, I'm like, that's your lane. You handle that. I can handle the farm. I can handle the finances. You handle mom and the medical stuff. He's like, okay, fine. So it just, it's a way to appreciate each other's talents and focusing on that type of stuff. So that's probably, I guess, my biggest family lesson too.

Yeah, I think that's great. And I'm not sure what face you, you saw me making, but, um, no, I can definitely relate to that. I think the family dynamics are interesting, um, and as you were going through it, I think that, um, I'm kind of a believer in birth order. I know that's kind of been discredited as far as our personalities, and I think you're kind of like the opposite of that because you, you— I like what you said, that the youngest oldest um, because you've got kind of the older, uh, sibling kind of energy.

Yeah, well, and I think that comes to, like, I mean, like you said, I mean, birth order can be, but it's like nature versus nurture, right? I mean, so I think, um, so my brother Matt had cancer when we were kids, and he, he's actually the longest surviving male bone marrow transplant out at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital. Wow. Yeah, and, um, so I think it probably would have been maybe the normal birth order in our family, but that experience where, you know, my, my parents and my brother basically moved to Memphis for 3 years and I stayed back in Missouri. And so I was, you know, my parents worked out a rotation eventually, and then my grandmother was caring for me quite a bit. So I think that's really what kind of shifted a lot of the things in our family. And then I've just always been a driven kid. I mean, my parents used to always say that I put so much more pressure on me than they ever did. I mean, my dad used to always laugh and tell a story that even when I was 6 years old, if I— I mean, I was wearing glasses at 6 years old. So my dad there, I would have an eye appointment and I would ask my dad, okay, what time do we have to— what time is my appointment? And he would say, you know, it's 9:30. So at 6 years old, I would set my own alarm. I would get myself up. I would get ready myself. I'd get myself breakfast. And then I would be sitting by the door 15 minutes before I knew we had to leave because it was just like, that's, that was the kid I was.

Yeah.

Um, so I was, you know, they kind of called me an easy keeper, um, which I do talk about in the book that, um, if you have any of those kids, if there's parents that have those easy keeper kids, you, you got to check on those kids. Um, because I think a lot of times they just think, oh, I don't have to worry about that one, that one's good. But then that one can be the one that internalizes a lot of things it might have some issues later on in life that, that you didn't expect.

Yeah, so this is interesting. That brings me to— because one of the lessons in your publicist, or you sent me some, some lessons, one of the lessons you learned was nobody gets anywhere alone. Uh, and you, you're obviously a very driven person that's done a lot of incredible things. So how does nobody gets anywhere alone, how does that play in your life?

I mean, I've had tremendous mentors, and, and so that was one of the things, like, when, um, when I decided to write the book, the book, um, when I publicly I've always ended with unsolicited advice. And they've been little, little quotes that I've gotten from people throughout my life. And so I always thought it'd be cool for a premise of a book to have each quote be a chapter, give more information on that person, and then like how to plug and play that information. So the book was never supposed to be almost entirely about my dad. But then my dad took over the book like the general did. And so, but it, that's why it's smattered with other people. But I realized that I've been blessed enough to have some great mentors. I had a great father, I had a great family, but not everybody does. And so that's one of the things I talk about in the introduction for the book that like, if you don't have a mentor, let this book be your mentor until you get one. And because I think when there's a lot of us that feel like, hey, we're self-made, we're self-made. And yes, that's true to a certain point, but there's always people that helped you along the way, you know, whether it was a parent, whether it was a teacher, whether it was somebody that, that that you had shared experience. I mean, I think people think of like a mentor-mentee type of relationship, but I think one of the most valuable relationships you can have are those peer-to-peer mentors that are people that are in the same industry or similar industry that you're in, that you have that kind of shared connection, but then it's more of a, you know, an outside view, but they know you very, very well. So I have two friends, Julie and Chris, that are big-time peer mentors for me. Um, but they not only peer-to-peer mentor me with business, but also with life. Um, so they, they know my family. I mean, they showed up for me. My father was buried at Arlington, um, in September of 2019. They came to the service. They've met my family. They've been integrated into the family. And, um, so I think that that's so important to surround yourself by the right people and to have the right tribe, because it's almost like an insurance policy. I mean, you talked about— that's my background. You got to get that in place before you need it because you can't expect people to come and save you and help you out when you haven't built that social capital in that relationship so that you can, you know, take a deposit, you know, or take a withdrawal from that account when you need it type of thing.

Yeah, I think that's really great. I think it's great you put that in the book because I could see, I would imagine people look at you and think, oh, she's independent, she can do it on her own.

Yeah, but see, I have to remind people of that, that I can't always, um, because I remember, um, our father hadn't passed yet and I was back in Missouri and I had a big meltdown with my brother Matt. I remember I was up in my, my bedroom, my old bedroom from where I grew up, and I just lost it. And I was just like, and I remember saying to him, I was like, Hey, you know, you guys think I have this cake life and that I— but I've worked really, really hard for what I have, you know, not— and I'm not even just talking about like money and treasures. I'm talking about mentally and working on myself and doing those things. And I said, you can ask me how I am too. I was like, I don't need to be saving everybody. I need somebody to check in on me from time to time. And that, I think, to finally have a voice and finally say that was so big. Because a lot of times I always envision I'm like a frickin plate spinner, right? And so you're going from one plate to another, and you're like, oh my God, something's gonna fall, something's gonna fall, something's gonna fall, and then it all goes to shit. And then if you, you need to like, then you have to stop, you got to drive the car and just start over, right? So, but, but being able to speak up for yourself and advocate for yourself, I think is really, really important. And it's shifted our relationship some. I mean, I've really seen it shift. My brother Matt and I, the past, um, it was a year or two, because he calls me just to be like— and my first, my first reaction, I mean, he called me last Sunday and the first thing I said was, is everything okay?

Right?

You know, I mean, because isn't that stupid? We're so used to freaking texting and emailing that if somebody actually calls you, you're like, oh my God, what, what's wrong? What's wrong with the girls? What's wrong with your wife? What's going on? And he was like, I was just calling to check on you, making sure you're And I was like, oh, yay, thanks. But I think it's, it's, you also, I think, have to say what you need and say what you want. I mean, like my husband said a long time ago, he was like, no man's ever going to volunteer for manual labor. But if you ask them to do stuff, you know, around the house or do whatever, they'll do it. But he was like, they can't read your mind. So I've always tried to remember that because I think so many times people get so pissed off and so frustrated. And then when you back up and say, did you tell them you felt that way? Did you ask for help? They're like, well, no, they should just know. And it's like, well, it doesn't work that way. People aren't mind readers. So it's just kind of like, I don't know. I feel like some of the parts of this book are just Life 101, um, that I've, I've learned that I just forget that not everybody gets these lessons. So I think somebody told me a long time ago, if you get good advice, it's your, it's your responsibility to share it with somebody else.

Else.

So that's what I tried to do with this book.

Well, I wish you could say that louder. My wife is upstairs right now. We've been together for 35 years, and she still thinks I can read her mind. And I'm like, well, this is what— this is what I would do. This is how I would do it if this— I'm like, well, that's good. You still have to communicate what you need. Um, so yeah, I think that's, that's very valuable. You know, that's a lesson for all of us. And also the lesson that sometimes people look at people that are high achievers like yourself and people who seem to be self-made, which you've acknowledged that none of us are, but they say, well, she could— she can do it. She's not going to be the one to break down. And we all— we all need help sometimes. So I think it's really good that you put that in the book to remind— remind people of that. And it's great that, you know, you're saying your relationship with Matt has changed after your father's passing. That happens a lot, you know, especially when, you know, you and your father are so close. And then unfortunately, a lot of times it goes the other way. So it's It is great that you guys are able to draw closer from that.

Well, and even, and like I shared before that, you know, my brother had cancer when we were kids. So, I was 10 when he was diagnosed and he was 13. So, there is a lot of like dad skills 101 that I think a lot of men or boys learn from their fathers from 13 to 16, and my brother had a 16% chance of survival. And so we were focused on his health and it wasn't like life skills. So when it came to like doing projects, like at the house or doing things, I was my dad's helper. 'Cause my dad always said I always had my head in the game because he would go to ask me for a hammer and I was standing there with one because I anticipated that that's what he needed. And I've never said this to Matt, so I hope he doesn't listen, but I remember when, you know, after my dad had relapsed once, but he was okay still. And my brother needed a light fixture changed out, and my dad says, well, I'm just gonna go and do it. And I said, Dad, use this as a teachable moment, because, you know, I said— and he was just like, well, he's like, sometimes it's just quicker and easier. I was like, I know. I was like, if you do it yourself, you know it's done right. But I was just like, who cares if it takes twice as long? Spend the time and just talk him through it. Because I said, Dad, you got to remember, he wasn't around to learn some of these things that I learned because of just the circumstances.

Yeah.

So sometimes I think you— and I, and I'm so guilty of that though. I mean, I'm guilty of that with work. I'm guilty of that. Well, if I do it, I know it's going to be done right. And so, but I can— since I'm like that, I can also see it in other people. And so it was, it was good that I was able to suggest that to my dad, and then they did that project together. So it's, it's nice that, um, you can still always kind of be learning even if you're in your later years too.

So yeah, exactly. And we all, we all have different skills and learn different things. I'm, I'm so grateful for YouTube now because my father was not the kind of person that taught me any of that kind of stuff. My— he never even had a decent toolbox, you know. And I grew up and my father, he would hire everything out. But now I get on YouTube and I look it up. So we don't all get those lessons.

No, I know my husband's from Philly and he's a city boy. And that's one of the things I talk about in the book too, is I was raised in a family. Why hire somebody to do something when you can do it yourself? And my husband was raised in a family. Why do it yourself? You can hire somebody to do something, right? And so neither one's right nor wrong, but it's just you have to appreciate those differences and understand it. And you have to be willing to fall on your sword from time to time. And, you know, my husband knows, like, he's not allowed to touch my power tools. And, you know, something that needs to be done, even at his parents' house, like, I'm the one that's supposed to supervise because it'll get screwed up.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's really, you know, it's interesting that, and you said we're all there, the nature versus nurture thing, uh, I think it's fascinating. That's, you know, we have two children, uh, one of our daughter passed away, but I think everybody should have, you know, if you're going to have children, you need to have more than one because otherwise you think like you created them. And then when you have more than one, you see how different they are. Like you talked about when you said again, you wouldn't be maybe friends with your siblings if you weren't siblings. My siblings and I are very different, um, you know, raised by the same people and, you know, in the same house and everything, but we're, we're different because we're born different.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

So I want to talk about some more of your sayings. You've got some great ones. I don't know if it's because you're from Missouri or what, but, uh, so, "Don't let your alligator mouth overload your tadpole behind" is a good one.

Yeah, that's for my mother.

Um, it sounds like Kentucky.

Huh?

It sounds like Kentucky to me. My wife's from Kentucky.

Yeah, so my mother is, um, from outside Chicago. She was born in Champaign, Illinois. Um, her father was a paratrooper in World War II, um, and then he was an educator and he was superintendent of schools and then eventually became the Navy's education specialist in Washington, DC. So my mother graduated high school in Washington, DC. Wow. And so all that means is don't get too big for your britches. You know, I mean, because sometimes, I mean, we can just, we can shoot our mouths off, right? We can just like not think about the consequences. We cannot think about how it's going to impact others. And we just, you know, we just shoot our mouths off. So that, man, I heard that probably on a weekly basis growing up. Up. So that was, that was definitely got to credit that to my mother.

Yeah. What about no step for a stepper?

So I actually, I don't know if you can see it. I have that tattooed on my wrist here. That was something my father told me constantly. So what that means, it's a Marine saying. So a lot of times people are like, I don't get it. I don't get it. But it's just basically like, you know, think of it, it's no step for a stepper. So my dad used to say it and it was like when I would be discouraged. So I would, oh, I'd have to read a book for school or I'd have to, you know, study for this test. I'm just like, oh, Dad, I just don't think I have it. He's like, ah, Suze, you've got this. It's no step for a stepper. And so, you know, it was just a way to just kind of encourage myself to, to move on. And so, um, I got that tattoo, um, a year after he passed. And because I just needed a little reminder for myself that no matter how things kind of change along the way and how things when things just, just seem too big, that, that I, I have it within me to achieve it. So that's, that's what that means, and that's one of my favorite ones.

Yeah, well, it sounds like it's similar to Drive the Car. You said it's like breaking things down into manageable steps, which is I think really, really important because we otherwise we get overwhelmed sometimes by—

oh, absolutely—

the largest of things in front of us. So you do, you tell your readers to navigate the three assets of life. What does that mean?

That's a good one. So that one, I get a lot of people that ask me about that. So, and I don't even remember, I, I think, okay, so I graduated college in 2001 and that was a stellar job market to pre-9/11. It was a stellar job market to graduate in. I had 8 job offers. And so, um, my dad brought me to New York We rented a car and we went to all the different locations that I had job offers at in Connecticut and Massachusetts and in New York. And during that trip, you know, we were just, we were just talking about life in general. And so he used to tell me, he's like, there's 3 facets to your life. There's the person that you're with, there's the thing that you do, and there's, you know, the place that you live. And he's like, if you are happy with 3 out of 3, you're living a golden life. But if you're happy with 2 out of the 3, still not so bad. But if you're happy with 1 or none, only you are the one that can get off your ass and do something about it. So, you know, I've been very fortunate. You know, my husband's wonderful. And so, you know, the person I'm with, I think relationships, the person you choose to be with, I think can make you better or worse. And I think that they can really enhance who you are as a person and enhance, and they can be your biggest cheerleader or they can just be the biggest person that tears you down. So, you know, I hit it out of the park with that one. Um, the thing that I do for a living, you know, I'm— I own an insurance brokerage, I do expert witnessing, I do public speaking, and I'm an author. And so there's a lot of moving parts there, but that's what I like about it because it's just like, it's interesting. If I get bored with one thing, then the other thing's going on. And so it's kind of cool. Um, so that's, that's, that's a good thing for me. And then I've lived in New York for over 20 years. Do I think New York is forever. I mean, my husband would leave tomorrow, um, but I'm not ready yet. But it's just like, but New York is just a place that I've thrived. Um, I think New York can be an excellent place for women, especially if you're a woman in business, because there's, um, you know, there's not, hey honey, what are you trying to sell me? Or people that are so nice to you, they want you to keep coming back because they don't want to hurt your feelings, even though they're never going to buy what you're selling. Um, so New York is very good for that. So those are like kind of the 3 things that I always try to remember to line up. So if something doesn't feel right, or if I'm like kind of irritable and discontent, I try to think through like, okay, like, have I checked all these boxes? Is something going on here that I need to kind of calibrate and adjust to and see if I can, you know, make things a little happier. But so those are, those have been the 3 kind of like facets of life or 3 pillars of life that I always kind of refer Interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting. So, um, I'm really curious about this. You said see the signs. That's one of your lessons in the book. So what do you mean by that?

I'm a big believer in signs. I mean, I know it's kind of woo-woo and not everybody will, um, but, uh, you know, when my, when my dad passed, I was shattered. I mean, I'm still shattered, um, and, but I, I had friends that were that kind of taught me that people that have passed, they're just without our reach, and that you can still have some sort of relationship there if you're open to it. Um, so there's this book called, um, Signs: The Secret Life of the Universe, or Secret Language of the Universe, by Laurel Anne Jackson. And somebody gifted me that book on the 1-year anniversary of my father passing. And, um, Laurel Lynn is, um, she's a medium, and, um, that's out in Long Island. She works with a lot of families that have lost children and things like that and helping them understand. And so I was somebody that always read a lot, and but then after my father passed, I don't know if you experienced this when, when you lost your daughter, but I, man, I just couldn't focus. I couldn't focus on reading a book. I, I would try and I would read a paragraph and I'd read it 10 times, and then I was like, screw it, I, no, I'm done, I can't do this right now. It's really Yeah, and so that was the first book that I was able to read after my father passed, and it taught me how to like ask for signs from him, and then I would get them. And it's just like getting, you know, a big hug, um, to be honest. And so, you know, I have signs that I've established with my dad. Um, sunflowers are a huge one, and I get those, man, I get those a lot. And helicopters are another one. Um, but then I have some real kind of like kind of quirky different ones. Um, but But, you know, and I, and I share that with a lot of people that lose somebody, because I just think that there's comfort in it if people are open. So, prime example, somebody that I, that I know through, you know, Missouri or whatever, lost their mother a couple weeks ago. And I reached out to them and I said, you know, I would, because I always reach out privately. I don't, I don't like doing the when somebody puts a post on Facebook and everybody's like, oh, I'm so sorry and everything like that. Like, I just feel like it's, I don't know, it's canned, right? So I try to reach out privately and say, you know, look for the signs. And I make suggestions and I don't know if it's like, I'm, you know, I don't think I have that ability or anything like that to speak for other people, but But I was taught certain things are good for signs because they have a high kinetic energy, like hummingbirds and dragonflies and cardinals are big, you know, high, you know, first sign, um, issues with technology. So like if you're on your cell phone and there's like a click, click, click, click, just pay attention. Um, and so this, this week I was actually— I talked to my dad a lot when I walked to the gym. In my head. And I was talking to my dad, and I was just kind of reviewing some of the signs. And I, I said to my, you know, I said to Dad, I was just like, well, you know, I said, it's been a rough week. I need a sign. I need a big sign. Give me a big sign, Dad. Come on. I know you can do it. And so I left the gym, and I was walking home. And in Queens, we don't really have dragonflies much around here. But I got a dragonfly on the 1-year anniversary of my father's passing. And so this dragonfly found me on, on Tuesday. And I was walking and The dragonfly walked halfway home with me and I was like, ah, hey dad, what's up? And so it's just, I don't know. I mean, some people probably listen to this and be like, oh, she's off her rock, your fricking rocker or whatever. But it's just, I feel like, I mean, my husband doesn't believe in it, but he still points out the things to me. So like if he's, if he's gone for, he's a nationally ranked Spartan racer. And if he's gone for a race and he sees a field of sunflowers, he'll take a picture and send it to me. So I just try to, I just think those are kind of cool things. And being open to those things. I mean, I was in the Austin airport. It was my first work trip after my dad passed. And it was in, my father passed away in August and this was in early October. And I was, man, I was tender. And I walked out of the bathroom and there was this picture and I've never really had art speak to me. I'm not, you know, I just never, I don't know, I move too fast to appreciate things. But it just stopped me. And there was something that just pulled me into this. And I'm like looking at this and I'm like, and I tear up and I just have such a visceral reaction to it, like just an emotional response. And I took a picture of it and I was like, I gotta have this. And so I ended up reaching out to the artist. Her name's Leslie Cowell and she's a local artist in Austin. And I said, and she said the name of the piece of work was called One More Day.

Oh wow.

And then the back of it, there's a silhouette of a man walking through the door, and it was almost exactly like the silhouette of my dad before he got sick.

Wow.

And it just— and she even told me, she said, I lost my father a few months before I did this piece. And it was, it was like a, it was a photography collage type of thing. Um, and so it had pictures from a crypt that she had seen when she was in Spain and just some flower, and it just was, it just took my breath away. And so. So I said, you know what, that's my Christmas present to myself this year. So I bought that and I actually have it above my home office. And so when I was writing the book, it was like, I could, you know, my dad was included in that process. So I think what makes you feel comfortable, what makes you feel, you know, some extra love. I think if you're open to those things, I mean, I get friends all the time now that are like, oh my God, I just got some poppies from, you know, from Joe that passed away. Or, oh, I just saw another cardinal, Susan. I mean, so that just makes me happy, because I think it just, it's very comforting. And I think if you're open to those things, then, then you can really get those signs too.

Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think it will— this is the show is woo woo. So woo woo is not a bad word here. Yeah, signs are, I think, really important. And so I was curious as to what your thoughts were on that. So I'm curious, did you and your father ever have talks about signs or afterlife or anything when, when he was, when he was no.

I mean, my parents were both very religious, um, so, you know, I, I was brought up in a church and everything like that. I tend to not be, um, I'm more spiritual, um, than anything, and I tend not to be very, um, into like so much organized religion. I think a lot of that's also by being in New York and being like, I feel like, you know, there's, there's God, there's, there's a being greater than me, and there's just different ways to get to being greater than yourself. And so, um, but I went to a seminar— this is kind of cool— like, so I went to a seminar that Laura Lynn did, and you were supposed to bring an item that was the person that had passed, and you randomly got paired with somebody. And so, you know, I went with, with a girlfriend, um, on, on her birthday. And, um, and so we just randomly got matched with these people. And so I had my I had my father's wings, his flight wings with me. And then this girl I got matched with had, had this ring that she gave me. And so I had established a new sign with my dad called Purple Tiger. And because my father, his squadron was the Purple Foxes. And we went to the University of Missouri, which are the Tigers. So that's how I came up with Purple Tiger. Because she kept saying, you know, you need to make things a little bit harder. Like, because like a sunflower can just be like a sunflower, you know, because because they can be a frequent thing. But she's like, you need to have some harder things so that, you know, kind of when you need an extra oomph, like you can really get those. So I got matched with this chick and one of the numbers, the number I established for my dad is 45 because he was born in 1945. That was just a number I picked. And so this girl gives me this ring and I'm like trying to read the energy off of it. And I'm like looking at the ring and I'm looking at the ring and it's a purple stone in the center.

Center.

And so when I'm giving it back to her, I said, well, I said, I feel like the person who this belonged to was some sort of artist. I said, or created something beautiful. I said, I don't know if they were a florist or a traditional artist, but I said, I feel like they created things. And, um, and then I started looking at the ring and they were like, um, there were 4 stones and then there was center stone, but one of the stones was missing. So it was like, it was a 4 but it was supposed to be a 5, but then it was a 4. And then the center stone was purple, and, um, but it was a different purple stone. And so I said, you know, I'm handing it back to her, and I said— and it ended up being her grandmother's, and the grandmother was a jeweler, and she had made that ring. And I said to her, I said, well— and I said, what's that stone? I said, it's like, it's an amethyst. She's like, it's a purple tiger's eye.

Oh wow.

Yeah. And so I was I was like, yay, I got it. So it's just, but I think, you know, being open to those things or just like when I went back to Arlington after my dad's headstone had been set. So that was in, he was buried September 27th, 2019. And then I went back to see his headstone in December. And so I got a ton of signs that day. I mean, I got like helicopters flying over. Something told me to turn around. I turned around and there was this whole wreath of sunflowers. And then I, below his headstone, because he, my family were cremated, so it's in the columbarium. And so I looked down and there was a wreath and it was tiger lilies and purple flowers.

Wow.

So purple tiger. So it's just like, so that's why I tell people, I'm like, you have to be open because you have to be able to connect those dots. So some people that wouldn't have been open might've just felt like I was freaking wreath, but you got to like look into it a little bit further. So I think it's kind of cool when, when you get those little, you know, one of my friends call it God wakes.

Yeah, that's what I call them too. And I think I'm glad we had this conversation because, as you said, you have to be open to it. You have to be looking for the things because there's things going on around us all the time and we can dismiss them as coincidences or see them as nothing. And you talked about that in the airport, you know, that picture speaking to you, to me, that's just, that just shows you were connected with the artist on a spiritual level. I don't think it was the painting that spoke to you. I think it was what was behind the painting.

Yeah. Let's see. Well, and like, you know, so my brother Matt, 'cause this is kind of a cool story. So my brother Matt, like I mentioned, you know, he had leukemia when we were kids and he was diagnosed in 1989 and then he relapsed and then, he ended up having a bone marrow transplant. And now this type of cancer, it's in the 90th percentiles on survival. So it was totally different. And so we could not find a match in the United States. I mean, I should have been the best match for him because we're full siblings, but I didn't match. Nobody matched. We, you know, people did bone marrow drives all over. And this was before social media, before the internet, right? I mean, it was just like there was a lot of things that, that you had to like do smoke signals and letters to get stuff done. My brother, his bone marrow transplant ended up being on June 19th in 1991, and his bone marrow came from Toulouse, France. When my brother hit his 5-year remission mark— I mean, for liability purposes, they're never going to say that you're cured, but that's a real big deal with cancer.

5 years, yeah.

Yeah. My dad paid for us all to stay at the Peabody Hotel. Um, in Memphis. And we went and everything. And then there was a big write-up in our local paper. And this priest wrote my family after he read the article, and he said, I was just fascinated by the story because he said the only relics of Saint Jude outside the Holy Land are in Toulouse Springs. And he said in the Eastern Orthodox religion, the Feast of Saint Jude is on June 19th.

Oh wow.

And so then fast forward 26 years later my brother's first daughter, Josie, or Josephine, was born on June 19th. So her middle name is Toulouse. So I mean, there's— it's just so cool. I think that I kind of feel sad for people that aren't open to things because I think it just can be so beautiful and you can get so many like kind of, you know, like hugs and love from the universe if you allow yourself to be open to those things.

Yeah, I completely agree. And you know, it's funny that you mentioned hummingbirds and cardinals. We live in Ohio and My wife sees cardinals as a sign. Every time she sees a cardinal, she says she thinks of her father or her daughter. Um, we have hummingbirds. We put out hummingbird feeders, but it's really weird this year, we've hardly seen any at all, but the last couple of weeks we've seen a ton of them. Um, so I think you're absolutely right. I'm a very rational person, and I know you were raised by a military father, you're very organized and rational, but we live in a universe I believe is magical if your eyes are open to it. Most of us walk around with our eyes closed.

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And that's the thing. I mean, it's just, it's very comforting. It's very comforting. And so, you know, I have one of my dear friends, she lost her brother about, it's been about a year and a half ago. And so I told her about cardinals. I said, watch for cardinals. And so she has a cardinal that she's named AJ after her brother, and it's got like a funny hair, you know, feather thing that like her brother had spiked up hair. And so she's like, that's AJ, that's AJ. She's like, I know it is. So it's, I think that those are Those are kind of cool things when people are open to it. And I think you gotta, you just gotta kind of remind yourself. And then I think it evolves too. So it's just like, so I'll, you know, if I'm kind of open to something and I look at things, I'll, you know, I'll, you know, might develop some different signs for my dad and kind of have different conversations that way too.

Well, you mentioned a couple of signs. You said helicopters, I know sunflowers, but you said you have some quirky signs too.

Well, like the purple tiger. Yeah. The purple tiger's, you know, kind of a quirky one. And, you know, in the number 45 is one that I've established with him. Dairy farms too. So just because my grandparents were dairy farmers. So that's so like, even like, I don't know if you can see it, but the COVID of the book actually has a glass of milk. And that's kind of a hat tip to my grandpa. Yeah, they were dairy farmers. And so when I was actually in that seminar, she was trying to play a video. So the dairy farmer, the dairy farm thing was I had established it that morning with my dad, I was I was like, okay, I was like, I don't know how we're gonna do this one because we're in New York City. But I was like, I think, I think, like, if dairy farm or Holstein cows or something. So like, when I was walking to the seminar, I was like thinking about this in my head. And so Laura was trying to play a video for all of us that had like the— what is it? Is it the Tibetan singing bowl or whatever, you know? And so she was trying to play it and she was playing it and then a freaking video cut in and it was Holstein cows mooing. And I was like, ah, I got it. So it's just— so it's kind of like— so those are kind of funny things, um, that just kind of happen along the way too.

Yeah, it's, it's cool. It's cool when you keep your— when you— when your eyes are open to it. And it sounds like you're, um, you're a very intuitive person too. So it's a two-way— it's a two-way communication. So— and I was— again, I'm an engineer, so I'm like, okay, do they put the thoughts in our head? Do they make the things happen? Do they know what's going to happen and they put the thought in our head? You know, and my wife is very much like, she'll see a cardinal, like, that's a sign. I'm like, we live in Ohio, it's the state bird, so I don't see every cardinal as a sign. So one day I'm out, I walk every morning, and I'm walking and this cardinal flies right across in front of me, just like right from my face across the street. I'm like, maybe that was a sign, but it's, it's a cardinal, you know, right? And then like 2 seconds later, this little golden finch flies cross and lands in the yard next to me. And those are very rare here, and I've never seen one land like right there next to me. It was kind of like my daughter's going, yeah, you didn't hurt no butt, you got, you got— I sent you the finch.

Yeah, I mean, you know, she— I mean, because I can see her face behind you and she's got a lot of light, right? I mean, it's just like, I would, I would establish that finch. Yeah, yeah, as a sign with her. And I think you'll get them if you ask for it.

Oh yeah, absolutely. So I, I'm also curious about this, um, you, you talk to your readers about being proactive through grief. What does that mean?

Um, I think that, you know, kind of like talking about like, like building your tribe before you need it. Um, so that was one of the things, I mean, that, you know, I don't have family in New York really. I, you know, I have one cousin that lives here with her husband, um, but, you know, I, I don't see her that much. Um, but, you know, when it comes to my nuclear family and everything like that, I didn't have that. And I remember when I moved to New York, my dad said, find the alumni chapter from the University of Missouri because he said, you won't have to explain yourself. People just automatically understand where you're from and it'll just be easier. So I kind of took that to heart and I've really built such a great chosen family here. And I think that sometimes, I mean, family can be such a hot button for so many people. And so when I talk about family, I'm like, look, I was like, there's some people that adore the family, some people that move across country from the family, some people find out they have a secret family. I was like, and then you can have, you know, some people that don't have any family, so they can, they can pick and choose and make their own family. And I think that, that the chosen family can be almost so much more important sometimes, because they can see you more as a complete person. Because your family's always going to have its own preconceived notions. You know, they'll look at you as the, you know, the kid with pigtails and braces that sits at the kids' table at the holidays. And they don't see you as a fully formed formed human. Your chosen family, you know, that have entered into your life as an adult, they see you more completely than a lot of times your family can. So I think having those people kind of connected, knowing what you need, um, and I think being okay to advocate for yourself and stand up and say like, no, I can't do this right now. I just can't. I can't, you know, because I think, you know, they always say, you know, how do you get something done? Give it to a busy woman, right? But it's just like, but but it's okay with saying no and making that be a complete sentence. And so I think it's important to like kind of understand those type of things, but then also look at, you know, um, ways that, like, I, I truly feel that sometimes, especially when you're dealing with grief and loss, we can, we can focus so much on ourselves and it can become a very selfish place. But if we reach out and can help others, that really gets us out of our own heads and we can make a further impact. So one of the things that I've done since my father's passed is I've become a hospice volunteer. And just as a way to, to be a living tribute to the hospice people that took such good care of our family when my dad was sick, but also like to understand, because I think a lot of times people in hospice, they just, they don't understand it until you've experienced it. So I think hospice is one of those things that it's like, you can't be empathetic until you've been there. Because people just think, oh, it's dark, it's so hard. I'm like, oh, how could you do that? How could you— like my brother, how could you be a hospice nurse? But it's such a beautiful thing. And when somebody allows you into that process of when you're going to be crossing over, it's— it can be just magnificent. And there's this book that I read, I literally finished reading it on the flight home. Um, so I had, I had been in Missouri for a long time, and then I came back, and a few days after I came back, because my dad was doing better, and then literally I, I landed because I, I looked, I landed on, on like, I was back in New York on August 20th, and I was flying back on August 21st, and then my dad passed on the 22nd, and I finished reading that book on the plane, and it was called, um, Midwife for the Souls, and it was written by a hospice nurse, and it talked about the signs of when somebody's passing, and it talked about kind of like their mental process of when they're, they're crossing over. And it was very beautiful, but it was also— it allowed me to understand what he was kind of going through. And then it also made it so that I could see the signs of when it was getting close. And so I— we had a rule in our house that if, if anybody woke up at any given time, you checked on Dad. If you had to go to the bathroom, if you wanted to get a drink, you checked on Dad because he was on oxygen and he could turn and the nasal cannula could come out and he could get his oxygen deprived and then he could have some confusion. So, since I finished that book, I woke up at like 3:00 or 3:30 in the morning. I went and checked on him and I could see that we were getting to the point. And I went to my brother and I said, I said, I think it's coming. I think it's going to be soon. And my brother said, he was like, I just checked on him about a half hour ago. He said, I think you're right. And I said, well, do you want me to get mom up? And he said, yeah, let's He said, "Let me come down and check on him." And he was like, "And then probably." So my brother came down and checked on him. He said, "It's going to be soon." And this was before my brother was a hospice nurse, but he was an oncology nurse. So he did see, you know, his fair share of death. But so I woke up my mom and we were able to sit around his hospital bed. And we talked about like our favorite family vacations because hearing's the last thing that goes. And we just talked about like such good memories. And we were just, we were all with him. And, you know, I had my hand on the inside of his elbow elbow, and I just felt a full stop. And I looked at my brother, I was like, he's gone. And then my brother checked with the stethoscope, of course, and he's like, yeah, he's gone. And it was just, you know, I think when you don't live around family and you think like, oh, you rationalize it in your head, like, it's going to be okay if I'm not there. Because I knew it was a coin toss if I was going to be there if he passed, you know. And, um, I'm so glad I was there. I'm so glad I was there. And I'm glad I read that book because I don't, I don't think I would have had the awareness miss to have woke up my brother, woke up my mom, and we could have just all got up that morning and he could have been gone and not have been with him when it happened.

So yeah, it's beautiful that you, you had that moment. You know, it's, it's— to me, that, that moment's really interesting because a lot of times, and you might know this from being hospice volunteer, a lot of times they will wait till the family's gone to pass because they want to pass alone. So people will sit vigil, sit vigil, sit vigil, and then they leave to go get a cup of coffee or they go home to take a and that's when they slip away. So everything happens, right? Yeah.

I mean, because that's what happened. I mean, so my mom was with my dad's nurse, and his oxygen level was going down. And my— and the hospice nurse, um, her name is Jennifer, and we're still all in touch, our families, with her. And she said to my mother, she said, he's, he's passing. And his oxygen was going down, going down, going down, even though it was on full force.

Yeah.

And my mom said, oh, but Matt's on his way. And it went down to zero, and then it came back up.

Yeah.

And then since I— like I mentioned, hearing is the last thing that goes. My brother and my mother kept talking around him and saying, Susan's coming home. You know, Susan's flying back, she'll be home tonight. And so, so I think he waited. Yeah, he waited for us. And then for my dad, I mean, my dad was only 72 when he passed, and, um, 73. And, um, for his 70th birthday, I had put together a book for him. So I reached out to all his different circles and I said, can I get a memory, a thought, or a letter or a story, uh, about, about him? And, you know, you could share pictures and things like that. So I put together a whole photo book with like all these letters and stories and stuff like that, and I gave it to him on his 70th birthday. And I remember him saying to me like, And like the day after I gave it to him, he, like, he and I had some time in the morning. He said, I don't think I responded properly. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, well, he said, you basically handed me a book and saying like, this, this is your life. And I mean, because it had people that like, my dad went to a one-room schoolhouse, you know, had people from that had been helicopter pilot with him, had people that he had mentored, like just all different facets of his life. And so I took that book. Book, and I read to him the entire last day. And so I read to him like all these different stories and things, and then we laughed as a family because we had forgotten about some of the funny stories and things like that. So it was— I, I think, um, I would like to go out that way, you know. I mean, to have somebody just reading and kind of reflecting about, you know, some funny things and just some beautiful stories and, and, um, just showing me the impact that I've made others.

Yeah, that's, that's awesome. That's awesome. Glad you had that experience. Susan, we're actually running out of time. It's been really, really great meeting you. It's been a pleasure getting to know you. Tell people where they can find you and find out more about what you do and your book.

Sure. So the book can be found at www.pancakesforroger.com, or you can just go to Amazon and go Pancakes for Roger. You know, there's, there's only one book like that. And then on the website, you can kind of connect through all social medias. Because my, my social media, like the Instagram is @CombsandCompany. And then my social media chick made me get on TikTok. So there's TikTok videos. So I always tell people, if you don't have time to read the book, the book, if you read it start to finish, is about 3.5 hours, but you can pick it up and put it down very, very easily. But you can just follow me on social media, and you get a video every Tuesday with a different chapter. So if you don't have time, you can just listen and you'll like read the book that way.

Awesome. Well, great. It's been, it's been really good getting to meet you. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you so much. Have a good day.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and will come back for future episodes. Brian's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it. There are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief2growth. Grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of Grief 2 Growth. For more about Brian and Grief 2 Growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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