Paula Lenz Shares Her Shared Death Experience With Her Brother

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Hi everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I'm thrilled to have as my guest Paula Lenz. She's the author of the book Driving To Infinity: Living with My Brother's Spirit. And it's a book that details her extraordinary journey through grief, through spiritual experiences, and personal growth after the loss of her brother Don. Her background includes an extensive career in public relations, marketing, business development, and teaching. She has a Bachelor of Arts degree from Sam Houston State University. Paula is a well-respected speaker. She's shared her insights at conferences and events for organizations such as the International Association for Near-Death Studies, or IANDS, Sam Houston State University, and the University of at University of Houston-Clear Lake. Her writings have been featured in publications like the Houston Business Journal, and she's been quoted in newspapers such as the Houston Chronicle and the Dallas Morning News. Her dedication to her work and community has been recognized with numerous accolades, including an induction in Sam Houston State University Wall of Honor for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences and a Certificate of Recognition from Texas Governor Greg Abbott. In Driving to Infinity, she recounts her powerful out-of-body experience with her brother's spirit and her visit to infinity, which transformed her consciousness. Through a book, she shares stories of her brother from family and friends, offering a glimpse into his life and providing comfort to those grappling with the loss after a loved one. So today, join me as we welcome Paula to share an incredible story with us.

Thank you so much for having me on your show, Brian. It's wonderful to be here.

I really appreciate you being here. As you may be aware, my audience is most— a lot of people who have suffered, you know, loss. And I know you— I'm sorry for the loss of your brother Don. But I know you had an incredible experience around his passing. So if you would tell me about your experience.

Well, let me just say, first of all, I, in 2017, is when I finally actually decided to share my story with the world about living with my brother's spirit by, you know, publishing my book, Driving into Infinity: Living with My Brother's Spirit. I felt compelled to finally write this book in 2017 as a way to reach out to others who experienced the same kind of loss as our family did. But my, my journey really began when I was 29 years old. And I began having this dream that recurred until the fall of 1983. And this dream was always the same. I was outside on these wide expansive fields, and these large crowds of people were gathering there. And someone near me asked, what was happening? And I replied that I heard it was the end of the world. And everyone was looking up into the sky at that moment. And suddenly there appeared Jesus. And in that moment, when that happened in my dream, I doubled over, almost falling down to the ground. And I was experiencing the worst pain that I'd ever had in my life. And it was heartfelt suffering and agony beyond words. And as I doubled over in this dream, I kept saying, but it isn't supposed to be this way. I thought that the end of the world was supposed to be joyous. And then the dream would, would end suddenly. And I had absolutely no idea what this dream meant. But fast forward here to Friday, October 7, 1983. And I was attending the Greek Festival in Houston with many of my friends. And this was a festival that was held every year at the Greek Orthodox Church near downtown Houston. It was a very popular and crowded event, and at that time my husband Michael planned to join us there at lunchtime. But sooner than expected, I spotted Michael making his way through the throngs of people and the crowd in the annex there And I was really happy about that. I thought, well, great, he left work early, and, and that's great. But as I smiled and waved at him, when he got closer, I saw his face. And I knew that something was terribly wrong. I had never seen him look that way. And when he caught up to me finally in the crowd, he put his hands on my arms. And he looked straight into my eyes. And in a trembling voice, he said, Donnie was killed in an accident this morning. Of course, Donnie being my brother. And then his face crumpled as he spoke those words to me. And when I was told this, I had this vision of the earth just falling, falling, falling and crashing at my feet. And then I slumped down toward the ground just crying and screaming, no, no, no. But that day, I understood what my recurring dream was conveying. In fact, it was showing me the setting, which was this great festival. At this church. And, you know, we were all outside at this festival. And it showed my emotional reaction to the news of my brother's death. And prior to that, I had never had a precognitive dream before. But my feelings over this loss, I was completely destroyed, as was my whole family. But the grief was just completely unbearable. I just didn't know a human being could cry so many tears. And then at my brother's funeral, I wondered how I could possibly continue living after this. So 3 days after my brother's funeral, Donnie came back to me while I was driving, and I was driving his personal truck because he was, he was killed in a company truck. And I was staying in my hometown to help my parents. And, you know, I was taking some funeral flowers actually out to my grandparents. And so the only vehicle I had access to was my brother's personal truck. And the trip there takes— to my grandparents' takes about 10 or 15 minutes. But halfway there, as I'm driving, suddenly this strange thing began happening to me. I suddenly developed 360-degree vision. I could see everything in all directions as I was driving. And at that moment, I became aware of someone behind me on the right side. And at that moment, I realized that it was my brother. And he had his hand on my shoulder. And I could hear him speaking to me telepathically. And Donnie's body was made up of a series of light points. That's the only way I know how to describe that. And it actually reminded me of, you know, on the old Star Trek series, when, when people were transported away, they, they had all these light points that, that they were made up of. But my brother told me not to be sad, that he was happy. And most of all, he wanted me to know a little bit of what life was like for him now. And he explained to me that he was on another plane of being. And that it had simply been time for him to leave. And so at this point, I became aware that I was no longer in my body, but I existed only in a state of consciousness. And, and I was no longer aware of driving the truck. And so instead, I saw initially this kind of landscape very briefly, which I can only describe as like outlines of some trees and countryside. But after that, my entire focus was on actually experiencing infinity and eternity. And being out in the middle of the universe, I could see all the stars and everything. But throughout this entire experience, my brother stayed with me. And so with no actual body restricting me any longer, I felt that I was one with the universe, with my brother out in the center of the universe. And I was totally one with peace and all knowledge in the universe. But most of all, I was one with the energy of love, or spirit, that is everything in the universe. And I came to understand that we are all one with this energy of love, and everything else as well. And I understood that this spirit, this love, is the all-encompassing, caring, and creative element of the universe. And I also came to know in this state of being with my brother, that there's no separation of, of anything from this all-encompassing spirit. And all we have to do is open up to spirit, open up our consciousness, you know, allowing this supreme consciousness and love into our own lives. And I loved being in, in this state of consciousness only, this freedom. And I did not care one thing about going back to my body or my life. You know, for me being in this state of being, this was a natural state. And I just had no desire to do anything else except to experience more. Of this state of being. And it was home to me. And so I, although I felt that my brother communicated some other information to me while I was in this state of being, I, when I returned to my body, eventually, I couldn't recall everything that he had told me, but, but I now believe that you know, I wasn't meant to recall everything, that perhaps he was sharing information with me about, you know, future events in my life. But as I just, as I desired to be deeper into this experience, I found myself just suddenly whooshing away very rapidly. I could hear this rushing sound. And within an instant, however, my brother's energy or spirit, I'll say, began pushing down on me where my shoulder was or would be associated with physical form. And he said to me, no, you can't go yet. It isn't your time. And with a feeling of a thud, I felt myself suddenly landing back into my physical body. And I realized that I had, even while I was out of body like this, that I of course had continued driving the truck, I actually had made a turn during that time. Onto this other roadway that led to my grandparents' house. And so for the rest of that day, I, I was just in this state of bliss. It just continued for me. But I didn't tell anybody about what had happened to me. But the next day, after this experience, I, I just fell back into this really deep grief, because I just missed him so much. But my life, my consciousness, my view of life on Earth was never the same after this experience I had. I mean, I had been the oneness with the universe and spirit and all that is. And, and that state of being is a very difficult thing to, to express. Even though I say words to describe it, it seems so inadequate to, to really explaining how being the oneness with Spirit and the universe actually is. But I've never forgotten how that felt. Of course. So as time went on, there were a variety of after-death communications and other strange events that, that, that I experienced, which, you know, was other outreach by my brother. And One of the things that happened was one time at my house, I was coming out of the, the bedroom, and I could see into the living room. And for just an instant, I saw my brother in there. He was at our stereo cabinet looking in it, which, you know, he had lived with us one summer, and that was the kind of stuff he did. He played, you know, albums and all of this. But it was just a brief instant. Another thing that would happen is when I'd come home from work, I would find that in our dining room, this one chair would be pulled out. And that particular chair was the one that he sat in when he stayed with us that one summer. And he and my husband would get in there and play this crazy football game, electric football game. And it was always the same chair that was pulled out again where he had sat. And I asked my husband at that time, I said, are you going in the dining room and, and sitting down in this chair or something? He goes, no, I hardly, I hardly ever go in there. But then I knew that, you know, it was my brother. It was just a sign from him. And another time, now this time my husband was in the same room as this happened. And we were just sitting there watching TV. We had this small room where we was the TV watching room, and there were these two bookcases in there. And all of a sudden, this video came flying out from one of those bookcases from the topmost shelf and landed on the floor right at our feet. And my husband was right there, and we both looked at each other like, what just happened here? Also, one time when I came home from work, we had this small built-in bookcase that was in the hallway. And when I came home one day, this, this book had— it was on the floor, but you could tell it had flown across the hallway. And so I went to pick up this book. Again, it came from the bottommost shelf. It wasn't a high shelf at all. It was from the bottom. And so just flew directly across to the other side. And when I picked up the book and looked at it, it was this old leftover volume from an encyclopedia set. And the volume of that particular book was D, which my brother's name was Don. And another time I came home from work, I started down the hallway toward the bedroom there. And I just stopped in my tracks because a chair had been placed in the doorway. Leading into the bedroom, a chair that was at our desk, normally at the desk in that bedroom. And I actually thought someone was in the house. I got scared and I ran back out the front door and just left the front door open and was standing out in the yard for a while. And I finally decided, okay, well, there's no one in there. So I returned. And moved the chair back to the desk. Um, but you know, my husband and I weren't the only ones who were experiencing things like this. I mean, my dad and, and his wife, they would hear their microwave buttons going off sometimes in the middle of the night. And the thing of it was, my brother used to go over there to their house and and eat dinner with them all the time and that kind of thing. And he would heat up food sometimes for himself when he would come over there, heat up food in the microwave. And then my mother had a dream. And she, she said she knew that this was Donnie that came to her, but he came to her in the form of a deer. And he walked up— this deer walked up to my mother, and she knew it was Donnie. And she told him, she said, "Son, you need to come back to me right now." And the deer said, "Mama, I can't come home." And she asked him again to come home, and he said he could not. And she said then the deer turned and walked away and was gone. And so another thing that happened was, I believe that I received guidance from Donnie about this, this incident, but because this was about 3 months after my brother's death, and we had gone to my dad's house for Christmas, and for some reason, I got up. It was probably— it wasn't quite the middle of the night. It was, it was, I think, early evening, but everyone had gone to bed. And in fact, my dad and his wife had been ill. And we had, you know, gone ahead up there for Christmas. But what happened was, as it turned out, there was carbon monoxide leaking into the house, which none of us knew. But I had crawled down the hallway, literally, to get to the phone there. This was way back when we had cell phones and things. And I called my sister. And I said, I don't know what's happening here. But I said, there's something wrong in this house. I need you to come over here and help me open the door. And so she did drive over that night. And we left the door, the front door open. And the next day, my dad discovered that the face of the door, the door on this furnace had fallen off. And what was happening was it was taking all the oxygen out of the house. So we were, we were all literally suffering and dying from carbon monoxide poisoning. And again, this was something that came through, I'm certain, from my brother that saved our lives. And so part of, you know, my journey has been that, you know, after I had these experiences, you know, the out-of-body experience into infinity with my brother, you know, I had all these things that developed this intuition and kind of knowingness in life. And also, when I walk along the street if I'm out walking, you know, on the street at night, as I walk past streetlights, the light will go out, and once I pass by, the light comes back on. So I think that that's like some sort of electromagnetic effect that I have on, on streetlights. But another wild thing that happened to me after, you know, having had this experience is this, this friend of mine who worked for me at the time, she came into my office, sat down and started talking with me. And all of a sudden, spontaneously, I see this friend of mine's aura. And she had this huge purple aura all around her. And this aura, the energy that was emitting, emitting, made my eyes start watering. And she's looking at me like, what's happening here? And I told her, I said, I don't know how to tell you this, but I'm seeing this giant purple aura that's developed around you. And I said, it's causing my eyes to water. I said, you're gonna have to leave my office. I said, go to your office and call me on the phone. So as soon as she started walking out, then, you know, all the eye watering and everything stopped. But as soon as she called me on the phone, it started all over again. And so these kinds of aftereffects long after, you know, the event of having had out-of-body with my brother. These are the kinds of things that I developed. And just, just a variety of different things and knowingness. And, and, and then the other thing that I had happened not too long ago was, you know, if a person is talking with me, about the loss of a loved one, you know, sometimes I've suddenly been visited by that person that they're talking about. And sometimes they give me messages to convey to, you know, the person that I'm, I'm talking with. And so, you know, in my life, I'm continuing to kind of integrate all these aftereffects, I guess you could call it, from my experience. But, you know, I, I share this story to help others. But again, this is not something I talked about until I retired. And that was when, you know, I decided to write my book and and share all of this. Because I just said, well, if people want to think I'm crazy, that's their issue. Because this is what happened, you know, all these years. And so, you know, I've developed— and this is on my, my website, but I developed what I call engaging in this meld into spirit technique. And this is a visualization that is meant to be done with your eyes open rather than going into a meditative kind of state. And it's about being the oneness of spirit. Or the universal energy of love. So if you don't, if you don't mind, I'll just read through the process here.

Awesome. Yeah, please.

And if people, you know, want to try to do this as I'm going through it, that's great. Again, this, this is, you know, on my website, but, you know, it's, it's good to think of this process, this visual— visualization as, as though you're viewing, you know, something using a microscope. But this visualization for the Meld into Spirit technique, and here's the instruction for that. So take a deep breath and just relax. Now, in your mind's eye, imagine and see everything around you. Blurring and blending together. There are no more edges to anything. Everything is becoming all the same white light, particles of light floating and merging. Now imagine the light expanding out beyond Earth, further and further out. Into the entire infinite universe, encompassing all. Everything becomes the light and on out into infinity. As this process continues, feel how easy it is to let go of all judgment. Of people or issues of life. It all falls away, released easily and completely. When we feel through our heart completely free, then we easily experience being one with the universal consciousness of spirit. Of the All That Is. Just relax into that supportive, loving feeling. No separation of anything. You are safe. You are loved. Left behind are any human earthly worries. We are now Completely one with the love, the light, the universal consciousness, as are all things. Feel the freedom, the wholeness, the peace that passes all understanding. No separation of anything. This is home, the all that is. All is well, always has been, and always will be in the space of oneness.

Nice, thank you.

Yeah.

So Paula, when you had this experience, this was in, you said, 1983, I believe, right? So yes, we had just started hearing about near-death experiences. And it sounds a lot like that. What did you think had happened to you when this happened?

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there.

Well, I didn't know. And I certainly had no, no idea that that sort of thing could happen. So for me, during that time, or after that, I began seeking out books, all kinds of books that I could find and read about any kind of experiences related to consciousness like this. And so that's, that's kind of how I started out trying to figure out what had happened. And, you know, Dr. Kenneth Ring had written some books, And I read those and just started down, down the pathway of finding and reading everything I could get my hands on about any of these kinds of experiences. And so that's how I came to understand, I'll say, that that these kinds of things can and have happened to other people. And, you know, I just continued from there. I eventually, you know, joined International Association for Near-Death Studies, IANDS, been a speaker for them. So I've been involved with that group for a long time. You know, having been raised Baptist, and in the Baptist Church. You know, I just didn't know what to think. And but it's good that, that Dr. Ring's book, you know, really helped me. And, and I've continued through the years to, to continue to seek information about all different kinds of experiences like that. And then of course, being involved with, like I said, IANDS, you actually meet and talk with people who have had a whole variety of different types of experiences, some like mine, and some that are, you know, quite different. But it was, you know, I just didn't have any idea what had happened to me in the beginning. It was just like, what just happened to me? You know?

Yeah, I would imagine it must have been pretty lonely those first several years. Because there was, there's probably no language for it. And even when the language came out about near-death experiences, shared-death experiences are still— most people don't know about those.

Right, exactly. So yeah, it was, it was, it was just, I didn't exactly know how to take what had happened to me. But I didn't think that there was anything wrong with me. I can tell you that because it's like, you know, this, this actually happened to me. This is not something I've just made up. And then the other thing too was just in light of all of the, the kinds of things that happened in my house, you know, seeing my brother in my living room, you know, all of these things contributed to the fact that definitely something had changed, something was different. And that these things can, can happen. You know, like, with the chair being pulled out in our dining room all the time and stuff, you know, coming flying out. And some people have asked me, oh, you know, is your brother— do you think your brother's an earthbound ghost? And I said, no, that's not what he is.

Right.

It actually kind of offends me. I understand that people ask that. Like he's just a lost soul wandering the earth. It's, it's a disturbing image. And it's disturbing when they ask that. But you know, I get that. The people, depending on their faith and where they are in life, you know, they they may not believe in any of this kind of stuff. So, you know, I just try, try to let it go and just explain what I know.

So in terms of, of your faith, being raised Baptist and having this experience, and you knew it was real, so you didn't think, okay, there's something wrong with me, I'm having a break. You're just like, I know this is real. How did you reconcile that with your Baptist faith?

Well, I could really no longer go to Baptist church. So, you know, I lived in Houston at that time. And I ended up going to the Unity Church of Christianity in Houston, which is just a much broader approach to— I'll just say, not so much religion, but spirituality. And by that church focusing more on the spirituality aspects, you know, there's, there's just such a lot more room for my kinds of experiences to be included in part of spirituality, versus, again, to me, the word religion ends up putting, in my mind anyway, I'm sure it's not, not this way for everyone, but It's almost like it puts these, these boundaries and limits. You know, every, every denomination, it seems like, has their, their beliefs and kind of their rules and regulations about what, what they believe versus what's not true. And, and, you know, spirituality doesn't do that. Spirituality is an openness of what can happen, how spirit can reach you in different ways. And, you know, in my mind, this is all part of spirituality, the way this happened. And so it, it just totally and completely changed my understanding of that aspect of connecting with the oneness versus just being in a religion. It changed the way I looked at everything.

Yeah. And just, this is kind of a personal aside, when you mentioned about your dream and about, you know, you seeing Jesus coming back. I was raised in a fundamentalist church, and we were taught about the rapture. And that's what it reminded me of, and which always terrified me. And it's interesting, in your dream, you said that it's not supposed to be this way. It's supposed to be a joyous occasion. So I could totally relate to that, to that feeling of, I guess, terror of the, of the end of the world. But it's interesting how that, that imagery is what, what was in your dream about your brother's passing.

Yes, it was, was really interesting. And again, I had that dream many times. And it's interesting to me, I think in some ways it was meant to, at some level, potentially prepare me for what was coming up, trying to let me know that there was going to be this this major change, although again, I had no idea what it meant. And then I had this kind of over and over again. And, but I don't think anything could have prepared me, you know, for the loss of my brother. It was because we grew up together.. And we had a lot of camaraderie, and he was very funny. He had so many friends. And, you know, my brother never did anything against anybody. He was just a great guy. And his loss to us was— yes, it was the loss of my brother, but It was the loss of a good friend too.

Sure, sure.

Because as I said, with us growing up together, you know, we had all these adventures. And, and one time I almost got us killed. I, I was probably 8 or 9. I was probably around 8 because my brother would have been 4. And we were out in the neighborhood, you know, the ice cream man would come through the neighborhood. And, you know, we'd gotten some money from my mother and, and so we crossed the street and there were other kids coming up, get snow cones and ice creams and things like that. And So when we got our ice cream, I had— I was holding my brother's hand, but we walked around the front of the ice cream truck instead of going around the back where we could see more. And as I'm busy eating my ice cream, holding my brother's hand, and he's standing to the left of me, and we step out from in front of this ice cream truck, this car coming through the neighborhood. Thank God it was just a small neighborhood street. But this poor woman, we stepped almost right out in front of her car. And she managed to stop before she hit us, but it was like an inch from my, my, my brother's leg there. And I just, I think back on that event. And I just think, my God, I almost got us killed back then. But it just wasn't meant to be. And, you know, it's, it's odd how in life, there are so many different times where you could have been killed or, you know, something, and yet you're spared. And, and there, I guess, reasons for that, obviously. But, you know, that was, that was something I never forgot. And, and of course, so relating that to, you know, when my brother got killed in this accident, I felt like, why wasn't I there to protect him? You know, because I had been the big sister all those years, protecting him and taking— looking out for him in the neighborhood and things like that. And that was one of the first feelings I had was, oh my God, I wasn't there. Why wasn't I there? And yet, I mean, he was a grown man and living his life and all of that. And that was You know, not only had I lost my brother, but then I had that whole total kind of feeling going on. Not, not that I— I mean, I knew I wasn't responsible for him anymore. But having been the big sister all those years, I just couldn't. I just couldn't deal with it. It was It was just really— I don't know even how to put words to it. I guess for anybody who's lost somebody they love, they can understand when it's just something out of the blue like that.

Yeah.

And our, in our minds, we're always going to live to be old people and, and just die a natural death or whatever.

Yeah.

Well, thank you for sharing that, Paula. That's a very important point. When you lose someone like a sibling or a child, someone that, that close. And just to, to kind of emphasize your point, my daughter was— Shayna was 15 when she passed away. And my older daughter Kayla was 18. And Kayla was away on vacation. Shayna passed away here at our home. And, you know, I remember Kayla saying something like, well, if I had been home, I could have saved her because she died in her sleep. You know, I could have saved her because I'm a trained lifeguard. So she took on that guilt, you know, on herself. So we do, we project this thing on ourselves as parents or as big brothers or big sisters, that we're somehow responsible. So again, thank you for sharing that. I know a lot of people listening can relate to that.

Yeah, well, that's an— yeah, that's an interesting experience that you're sharing too. I mean, It, yeah, it just shows you how, you know, at some point when you're in a situation like that, you're right, you do want to take that on. Like, oh my God, I should have, I should have been there. I should have been able to do something about that. And it's a terrible feeling. I mean, on top of losing that person, right? Then you feel what comes to the forefront are these lifelong feelings and notions about your relationship with that other person. And especially if you're the oldest or whatever, it's like, for whatever reason, it's— you just can't grasp that you weren't there to see that that didn't happen.

Yeah. So what are your thoughts? And you mentioned that since you bring up the point when you were younger and you had that incident, and we are spared sometimes. Do you think it was Donnie's time to go? Do you think we all have a time that it's, it's our, it's our time? And it's, there's nothing that can be done about it? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Well, in fact, yes, I do think we do just have our time that comes. Because my brother told me, he said, I don't want you to be sad. It was, it was simply time to go. That's what he said. And so, you know, him saying that, of course, I hear the words, but it's not like I was able to just totally believe that and just say, okay, well, okay, yeah, I accept that, you know, sure, it was just your time. No, I, in fact, I don't think I've ever come to terms about that. You know, there'll never be a point, I don't think, where I just say, oh, okay, yeah, it was just your time to go. There's just something— me, I can't accept that. And And maybe that's part of the reason he's reached out to me, you know, all these years. Of course, being brother and sister and all of that. Maybe it's just a reassurance to, to me, for me to let me know, hey, I'm, you know, don't worry about me, I'm still, still around here. And I mean, again, not that he's an earthbound ghost, he just kind of checks in here and there. And, and, and I appreciate that. Because I know, I know when something's happened that it's related to him. And, you know, it's just like, just like I said, you know, I have these bookcases in here. And one day I'm in here, it's all quiet, nobody's in the house. And all of a sudden, this book flies out of the topmost shelf and head heading toward the window. I jump about a foot. Because I'm right here at my desk.

Yeah.

You know, and I just said, cut it out, Donnie. I know that's you. I mean, you know, that's okay. He just checks in here and there. That's such a type of prank that we would hold on each other.

So these things are still happening with you, with you and Donnie?

Yeah, off and on here and there. Yeah, not all the time, you know. But, but there are things that happen then. And I know it's him. But yeah, he's where he's supposed to be.

But, you know, yeah, well, you know, there is this, the balance, I guess, of knowing that they're okay, and knowing that they were supposed to be, but we still miss them. You know, I still miss my daughter. It's been, it's been 8 years for me. Almost 8 years, 8 years in June. So we still miss them. We still, you know, that human part of us, the physical part of us, we want to have that physicality. But it is tempered, I think, somewhat by knowing that they're okay. And, and they do check in on us every once in a while. And it's sad that people say things like, are they earthbound? You know, people, they say things and they don't realize how much they can, how much they can hurt. And it doesn't mean that they're earthbound, because when we are multidimensional beings, and our loved ones and spirits can be more than one place at a time, and they can, they can check in on us, and they can check on us even while they're doing other things. So we're, we're much more powerful than we realize when we're in our bodies. We're the ones that are, that are bound, if anything.

Yes. And Yeah, and I appreciate you saying all that, because I think people do want to be judgmental, I'll say, towards people who believe or relate incidents, I'll say, of things that have happened, that we believe, you know, come from our— the ones we've loved and were deceased. I think, and especially in cases of where they were younger, and they left our lives unexpectedly, you know, I expected to be growing old with my brother. And, you know, that, that didn't happen. And, and so, yeah, it's, it's comforting when you get little signs here and there. Again, doesn't happen all the time or anything like that. But through the years, there have been things, and it, it is comforting. And, you know, it— I don't fear death. I fear more getting hurt in this life, to the point where you can't walk or do whatever, you know, versus the idea of dying and moving on. Is— I don't find that idea scary. I find that it will be, you know, when you're released from this physical form, then it'll be back to experiencing the oneness and the love that is, you know, the universe. And, you know, I don't know all of what lies beyond here, but I feel like there will be a lot of joy in terms of reconnecting with many people. And probably not just people from this lifetime, but potentially other lifetimes that we may have experienced.

Yeah, I absolutely think so too. So I'm curious when— I know you didn't share this publicly up until fairly recently. Did you share it within your family? Did you share with your husband and your, and your family? Or was it something that was just, just you that knew about it?

Well, I did share it within my family.

Okay.

And I had one or two close friends way back when that I, that I shared it with. But Pretty much, I did not talk about that with people. I mean, I was in the world of business my whole career, right? And, you know, I dealt with a lot of people, and lots of projects and things of that nature. And so I just didn't go there about what I had experienced. And so when I retired in 2016, I just, I just came to the conclusion, you know what, it's time that I share my story with people. And that's when I sat down and wrote the book. And once I got it published, then I began speaking about it. And I just said to myself, it doesn't matter to me what people think at this stage of the game. They can either believe it or not believe it. And, you know, and I do speaking about that, as I said before, and I just, I don't worry about it. And, and I will say this, when I finished my book, and I, and I got it published, and I started speaking to people about it, it was like for the first time in my life, I felt authentic as a person and whole. Because sharing this side of my life and these experiences, that's what it did for me. It made me— I was embracing myself as the person I am totally. Not just this businesswoman side, you know, dealing with people that way. But for the first time, just being out there with the full story about what happened to me and with my brother. And the whole idea of being— this is a way to help other people who lost people they love. And it was so freeing for me. It was an amazing feeling. And it is an amazing feeling. But when it started happening after, after the book was out, and I was speaking about it, I suddenly realized all this. And I'm like, wow, I'm really free here. Now, in terms of who I am, I'm embracing all parts of who I am and speaking my truth. And people can accept it or not accept it. But it doesn't bother me. You know, they can think what they want. But it was definitely a change for me in feeling, as I say, now I'm authentic in who I am.

So I'm curious, how have the responses been for people that have known you for a long time? I mean, has anyone said, Paula, I've known you for 40 years, but I've never heard this story?

Well, even business colleagues from Houston and all of that, a lot of them have read my book. And you know, I haven't had any negative feedback or repercussions or anything. People, I think, are just amazed by it. And, you know, some people have thanked me for sharing that. And then some of these, you know, same business colleagues and so on, it's, it's let them share some experiences that they've had.

Yeah.

So in the end, it's all been It's all been positive and good. I've never had any kind of negative feedback from anyone.

So I think it's very natural, the fear that you had. I think we all have that we all want to, you know, be seen as normal. We don't want to be seen as woo woo. You know, and it's funny, because I've been studying this afterlife stuff for quite a while. But I guess I didn't talk about it awful lot until my daughter passed away. But what I realized is once I started sharing things with people, they started sharing things with me. And some of these people I'd known for 20-plus years, and suddenly they're telling me stories about premonitions, dreams they'd had that were premonitions, and visits from the grandmother the night their grandmother died, and things of that nature. I'm like, well, I've known you for 20 years, I've never heard that. So we all hold these things inside, scared to tell everybody else, because we all think we're— they're gonna think we're crazy.

That is a great point. Yeah. And, and that's true. I have had other people share information with me. But your point is exactly right. It's, it's, it's just, we think there'll be all these repercussions and everything. And, but at some point, it's just like, you know, I don't care what people think. Like, You can either believe this or not. But, you know, this is, this is my story. And this is what happened. And it's freeing, just like I said, I don't have to hide anymore about stuff. And yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Yeah, well, there is, there's, there's a lot of fear around it for many reasons. We feel like, you know, people are going to think we're crazy, you know, for some extent that people are going to think we're there, they're going to judge us. People do have certain beliefs, like, you know, for example, the dead sleep, the dead don't know anything. So therefore, you're— it couldn't be your brother that can't come back to you. And that's based on my opinion on misinterpretation of usually the Bible. But we know through experience, experiences like yours, and people that have had NDEs, that when we, quote, die, we're very much alive. And we do still care about our loved ones. People do still visit us and show us signs. And they're, you know, in some ways connected. Doesn't mean that they're stuck. Doesn't mean that they're, you know, they haven't gone to the light, you know, all those types of things. So I, I appreciate you sharing your story, because I think it's going to be very encouraging to a lot of people to know that our loved ones are still around, still care about us. And that, you know, the experience that you had that, you know, even all these years later, the impact that that's had on you.

Well, I appreciate you inviting me to be on your show, because I do feel that, you know, I have an important message along those lines, as do lots of other people now, in sharing their stories. And And again, it, it's a wonderful, freeing kind of feeling from really being able to share it. And, and really, the goal is to help other people who, if they haven't already had a loss in their family, at some point, when they do potentially experience something like that, you know, it's like, well, hopefully the message heard here today will be encouraging to them that, you know, they're still alive, they're still— potentially, they can reach out to you and let you know they're okay. Yeah.

So Paula, remind people again of the name of your book. I want to make sure everybody gets that. And if people want to contact you, I assume they can contact you through your website.

Yes, I do have a website. It's, you know, www.paulalenzauthor.com. That'll take them to my website. And, you know, there's additional information there. I think you can actually buy the book through there. But, you know, and I've got some blog posts and things of that nature. So, yeah, it's all good.

All right.

And just let everyone remember the name of the book is Driving into Infinity: Living with My Brother's Spirit. And Paula is Paula, and it's Lenz L-E-N-Z. That'll be in the show notes. I just like to say it because sometimes people don't look at the show notes and make sure people can find you. So, Paula, thank you so much for doing this. And thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for sharing Donnie. I know Donnie is still with us. And, you know, sometimes we think, okay, once they've been gone for so long, they've forgotten about us. But time is different on the other side, from what I understand. And they're still involved in our lives. Yeah.

Yeah, so true. In a good way.

Yeah. Well, have a great rest of your day, Paula. Thanks for being here.

Thank you so much, Brian. Really appreciate it.

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