Piercing the Veil: How Tragedy Unveiled the Hidden Truths of Consciousness - Dr. Betty Kovacs

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I've got me with me, my guest is Dr. Betty Kovacs. Dr. Kovacs earned her doctorate in comparative literature and theory of symbolic mythic language from the University of California Irvine. She taught literature, writing, and symbolic mythic language for 25 years. She served many years as chair and program chair on the board of directors of the Jung Society of Claremont in California, and she sits on the academic advisory board and Forever Family— of Forever Family Foundation, I should say. Dr. Kovacs is the author of Merchants of Light: The Consciousness That Is Changing the World, winner of the Nautilus Silver Book Award and the Scientific and Medical Network— Network— I'm sorry, Scientific and Medical Network 2019 Book Prize. She's also written the book The Miracle of Death: There's Nothing but Life. If you'd like to reach Dr. Kovacs, her website is www.kamlak.com. That's K-A-M-L-A-K. And that'll be in the show notes. What I want to introduce— well, I'm just introducing her— talk a little bit about her background. Within a 3-year period, Dr. Kovacs experienced the deaths of her mother, her son, and her husband in separate automobile accidents. While she had studied shamanism before her son's accident, she and her husband actually experienced her son's consciousness after his death for an extended period of time. These experiences completely changed their lives. And her first book, The Miracle of Death, is about these altered states of consciousness. After her retirement, she began an intensified period of research into our ancestors' experience of a vast consciousness, cosmic Christ consciousness, which she relates in her new book, which is Merchants of Light. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth, Dr. Betty Kovacs.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, it's really an honor to have you here today and to learn more about what you've experienced in your life and how you put that into your work. So I do want to start, you know, you said within a 3-year period, you experienced the deaths of your mother and your son and your husband in 3 separate automobile accidents. How did that, how did that occur?

Well, it, it was strange. In 1990, my mother was crossing the street and was hit by a car and killed instantly. And then the next year, our son here in California— my mother was in the South— was in a car accident on the 210 freeway from between Pasadena and Claremont, where we live. And he was actually— he probably was brain dead on impact. But the interesting thing is the paramedics were coming right behind him synchronistically. And they got him out of the car, took him to the intensive care ward at Huntington Hospital, which was just maybe 10 minutes away. Again, an interesting thing. And he was in the hospital for 13 days. But he never did regain consciousness. But that did give us time to come to awareness of what was really going on and how to deal with it. And then, 2 years later, my husband went to his home country, Hungary. He had some of his equipment for his work made there, plus his mother was still alive, his brother, big family there. And he went there to visit them. And when he was there, he was killed in, in a third automobile accident. So it would have been completely devastating for me, I think, if my husband and I had not had these experiences with our son Pishti after he died. But the interesting thing is that we also had experiences before he died. When Pishti was not quite 12 years old, He had a dream. He told me his dreams, and he would write them down, because we always valued the dream and would talk about them. And one afternoon, I was vacuuming the house, and he said, "Oh, Mom, I just remembered, I had a dream last night." So we sat down and he said, "Would you write it down?" And I did. I found out later that he had written it down too, and had also drawn some of the images from it. But the dream was, he said, "I was in a hospital, and I was up above." the emergency room. And I was looking down at my dead body. And then he said, there was a period of darkness. And then I was on the other side. And he said, I was with other boys, and it was in a horseshoe shape. I was at the top of the horseshoe. And there were 4 boys on my left and 4 boys on my right. And there was an eternal fire in the middle. And Across from me, beyond the fire, I could see another, the aura of another boy. And he said, we were all waiting for him. And we knew that when he arrived, I would be complete, because 10 is a number of completeness. I thought that was a strange dream for not quite a 12-year-old.

Wow.

Yeah. And he said, what do you think it means? I thought, oh, how will I deal with this? It did concern me, of course. But then I thought, okay, I looked at it symbolically. And We talked about, he's 12, he'll be becoming a man, and that's the death of the child. And we looked at it that way, but it did disturb me. But then in the last year of his life, he had another dream in which he was in a violent crash and he was in the hospital and someone was working on him. And then a voice said, you know, he's dead. He's gone. And but he said during that time, he was going out into the cosmos and traveling so fast. He said, I traveled so fast that planets and suns popped as I went by them.

Wow.

And then he came back. And then he would go again. And finally he came back and he said, then I knew I was not that person. And it was in the morning, I was getting ready to go to the school where I taught, he was getting ready to go to his school. He was in college by that time, he was 20. And I remember taking hold of his arm and saying, oh, thank God, it wasn't you. Well, of course it was him. But at that point, I, it just, I didn't take it all in. And I said, Pishdi, we have to talk about this later. I totally forgot it. And he also never mentioned it. But after he died, we were in his room with his girlfriend, Jenny, the girl he loved so much. And we were, she was looking at some of his poetry and things like that. And suddenly she said, oh, Betty, look at this. And I realized it was the dream he had written down. And of course, how revealing it was at that point, because he had just died in Huntington. He had been in the operation room, and then in the critical care ward, and then died just as the dream had said. So, so we did have that preparation, you might say, or he did. But I also had a preparation, as did my husband. For 2 when I look back at my dream journal, I had been dreaming of his death. And yet I looked at it symbolically, again and again. And in some cases, it would be that Pishi had been killed. And then I thought, oh no, it wasn't Pishi, it was someone else. And yet in those dreams, I grieved so deeply. And I really believe that I did a lot of grieving before he died. You know, on some other level. But of course, I consciously, I looked at it in a different way. And we lived life, you know, joyfully, as though we didn't know anything. And I think we did know on an unconscious level, but not consciously. And in that last dream that Pishti had, it was really very moving in a way, because I was in the dream at the beginning. And he's— there were just hundreds of lights, candles lit. And he's— and there was a chanting. And he said, when he came in, he said to me, can you hear the chanting? Can you hear? And I said, yes, everyone can hear the chanting. And it was so we were hearing it in our sleep. And it's interesting, because the first vision after his death was a spiral of souls who were chanting. And I'll talk about that later. But, and then my husband, who was not interested in this kind of thing, but he honored my interest and Pishti's interest. And I had been twice to Peru to work with shamans. And the first time when I came back, I had had a vision and I wanted to tell him. I did not pick a good time to tell him. I realized that he was trying to read the sports section of the LA Times. And I don't know why I did that. But at any rate, I was telling him and I realized his eyes kept darting back to the paper. And I said, you know, Pishtha, his name is also Ishvan, I'll call him that. They had the same name, but I'll use the other name for him, Ishvan. I said, you're really not interested in this, are you? And caught, he had to say, you know, he said, I know you, I know that what you're telling me is true, that you've experienced it. But I have never had any experience like that. And I can't, I just can't relate to it. I said, well, that's honest.

Yes.

So, but at any rate, then one week before Pishti's death, Ishvan was in his office here at home. And suddenly he saw Pishti's car on the side of the freeway. And he saw his body superimposed on the top of it. And he knew that he was dead. Because it was superimposed, two different realities. And he heard himself say, "Oh, that's right, Pishdi, it's almost time for you to do this." Wow. And that shocked him. And Pishdi said, "Yes, Dad, it's almost time." So this was a waking vision? It was a waking vision. Yeah, in his office. And he said, the man who couldn't understand visions, And he said, Pishji said, "That's right, Dad. I will be out of the house for a little while." And then he became completely unconscious of that dream, of that vision. And so I knew nothing about it. And he didn't tell me until Pishji died. But we happened to be home that afternoon when the telephone call came that he had been in an accident. And so we went to the hospital together. And of course, the dream came back immediately. But he still had this feeling even if we had encouragement that he might live, he's— he had that deep feeling that he wouldn't because he had seen his death already. And then afterwards, when he did die, he told me. So we all three had this, these warnings. But thank heavens, we looked at them symbolically, or it became unconscious with Istvan, so that when it happened, then We went through that usual kind of experience that parents do when that happens.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own story, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. I'm curious, because you mentioned dream journals, you mentioned Pishi keeping a dream journal when he was like 12. How long has your family, or you and Pishi, how long did you keep dream journals?

You know, my family certainly didn't talk about those things much. Although my mother's side was a little bit more inclined to be interested in, in, in that sort of thing. But when I was in college, and always I was trying to figure out, what is this all about? There's just got to be more than this around me. And of course, when I was young, no one talked about these inner experiences so much. The church was there. And my parents didn't belong. But Bill and I, every time we moved to a different place, my brother Bill, we would always pick a church and find out where they had a lot of kids and a good program going on. And we went, and I know my life was deeply influenced by the image of Jesus. I can still remember the felt boards where they had images that would stick with the felt. And they talk about the man Jesus and the people around him. And that had to influence me a lot because it was the honesty, the integrity, the beauty of his love and his life. But I couldn't believe something. I even went to a Christian college and In those days, it wasn't yet quite the way they are today. But excellent, absolutely superb professors. And they were open. After the first year, I never went to church. And nobody questioned me. And they— the whole atmosphere was each of us has to question and find what is true. And even by the end of the time I was there, and it was a wonderful time in my life, I— it was completely right for me to go there. I knew I couldn't believe. And so my whole journey was, how do I know? How do I experience it? And know with no question so that no matter what anyone says, I know. And so that was the journey. And I thought I was having dreams. But I met a young man who had just graduated from what is it, Andover Newton Seminar— Seminary. And I think that's now connected to Yale. I don't know whether it was then or not. Well, he had a new church. And this was in Michigan. So he had a party, invited his friends who had also just graduated from Andover Newton, and their girlfriends. Well, there we were that night. And they were talking, I didn't say a word because I didn't know anything. So I just sat there quietly and listened. And they were talking about Carl Jung, and dreams and visions. And they were talking about quantum physics and mathematics. And so I thought best for me to just listen. And then afterwards, I asked him, I said, well, Who is this person, Carl Jung? And so he took me into his library, and I found Modern Man in Search of a Soul. And I thought, okay, that's my journey. And I borrowed that book and others. And I began to read Carl Jung, and he had a profound influence in my life. And I began to dream with him, of him. One dream, I was in the forest, dark, and I was trying to find my way. And suddenly I saw a house, and there was a light in it. And I went to that house and Carl Jung opened the door.

Wow.

And he, he was in this deep ruby red gown and silver hair. And I just knew that's where I wanted to be. And I looked in and there were all of these old ancient texts covered with leather. And he welcomed me in and I went in, but I tripped at the door and plunged. On my belly in his— in the middle of the room. And I thought, well, that dream was indicative. I did want to know more of what he knew. I did want to study what our ancestors had known, and perhaps we had forgotten, and what he had discovered, because that was his journey too. And I was obviously— I knew nothing. And I was certainly a novice for sure, landing on my belly in a very awkward way. But that's okay. I showed up. I was there. Yeah. And I wanted to learn. And in the next scene of the dream, we are sitting together talking, and we are on cement, a paved, a patio that made out of cement. But next to us was this ancient primeval forest. And of course, that was Jung's goal, to try to bring the depth of who we are, this ancient rootedness in the beginnings of life into consciousness, because we had repressed and suppressed so much of life and who we are and what we're deeply rooted in. And so I was on my journey. Wow. He did influence me for sure.

Absolutely. I can tell that just from the short time we've spent together. So I'm curious, what got you into shamanism? That's not something a lot of people in the West, you know, do. And I apparently, this was a while ago that you got into it.

Yes, well, I was teaching in college at that time. And I taught mythology. And I, as I think Robert Graves says, mythology is always somebody else's religion. It's the symbolic system of a spiritual tradition that maybe we don't practice, but someone did. So that was just a wonderful time for me. I taught also with a colleague for— we team taught until he became chair of the department, then I taught it alone. This was in the '60s and '70s. And that's the students of of course, were, were very interested in all kinds of things. It was a real opening at that time. And so we together discovered so much through these mythic systems. And then I looked at the artifacts, and I would have so many of the artifacts on slides. And it was just an incredible experience for all of us. So I always thank those students that together— I wasn't much older than they were— and together, we were discovering things about the psyche, the self, and how our ancestors understood and related to nature, and to each other, and how they had experiences, which the kids were talking about at that time. I didn't call them kids then. Only at this advanced age, I look back and call them that. But excuse me, they were actually— some of them were using LSD and, and mushrooms, and they were having these experiences. And many of them didn't know what to do with them. But when we looked at them within these symbolic systems, it was very clear that there are altered states of consciousness that we all have access to. And our ancestors had many techniques of achieving those altered states. And you know, it says, they say that we have a valve that actually limits this great cosmic mind that we are living in this universal intelligence that we all are. But we have a valve that lets just a little bit of it stream in so that we can get by in daily life. But our ancestors knew we have that, we are that, and they knew how to get into a place where that valve would open and we would experience who we are. And so we began to realize in mythology, look, these experiences are who we are. And it helped the students also to put it within a structure and understanding. But many of them were totally changed by those experiences, because even willy-nilly, they experienced something vast that we are.

So you were into studying mythology. How did you take the step to cross over or to take that next step to become— to start having shamanic adventures?

Yeah, thank you. That was where I was going to go and forgot. Yes. Then I realized, well, our ancestors did this all the time. They had these techniques. So I went to Peru with a person who had been trained in shamanism from another country. And I was kind of disappointed at first. But what I did learn is that we, as a group, we went to various places that were considered power points in the ancient world, and meditated and did various things. And I felt not much happened. And I felt I was too much in the rational mind, which is what I— I didn't want to be there. I wanted to know the other, but I, I was kind of captured in that. And of course, the university, they teach us that, you know, this is the only mind that there is, and it's superior to all else and the brain, which is, of course, totally, totally wrong. And I mean, the heart really is the center of the brain, I mean, of consciousness. But we've forgotten that our ancestors knew that so well.

Absolutely.

I had such a hard time getting beyond that. And yet on the last night we were there, full moon, we were at, in Bolivia, on Lake Titicaca. And we spent the whole day there meditating alone and together and contemplating our own lives. And then that night, we were within an old stone circle. And the shaman did give us San Pedro, which is the sacred plant of South America and the Andes. They use that. And so I said to this shaman when he came, give me double because nothing happens to me. Well, he gave me 1.5 times more than I should have, I guess. Then he got scared. But at any rate, finally, there was a mountain. We were down below and there was a mountain that surrounded Lake Titicaca. And nobody was there all day. Nobody was there.. And suddenly I looked up at the mountain, and I saw so many people up there. And they had like tall headdresses and staffs. I even saw a dog. And I thought, what is that? In fact, I saw a dog running down and down the mountain on the other side. And then in my terrible academic disease, I thought, ah, that shaman has probably hired them from Puno, bring out here to make— I mean, that's so sick. It's so bad. But at any rate, And just as I said that, they began to move in a very sort of almost a liquid flow. And I thought, well, they're not real people. And then I looked to my left and I saw a being step off the mountain and walk in the air. And it looked like he had wings, or it looked like wings brought them up. And I watched him for a while. And then, can you believe it, I turned away. And I think I just wasn't ready to see that being, because later I talked to the shaman and told him what I'd seen. He said, yes, he appears there every time we're there. And he said, he's a great light being. And he joins us when we're in that meditation. And so anyway, that at least was a start. I knew I had seen something that my rational Western brain could not explain. And so that was a big opening for me.

There's, there's so much I want to ask you, I can't even keep it all straight. But you just said something that really triggered something for me, because I was going to ask you about plant medicine when you talked about, you know, being a shaman. And I know that's one of the ways our ancestors reached these altered states. But I think we assume, we call them hallucinations. So we assume that they're all subjective, and they're all just coming out of our mind. But what you just said there, I heard objectively, the same being is appearing to different people in the same location. So that's, that's an objective. So I'm wondering, just curious, do you think these altered states allow us to see objectively what's already happening around us?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. It's what it does is, in fact, let me just tell a little bit of the story. I had a really close friend from Ecuador, and she's lived in California, but we went there together. And so I didn't say a word to her, except I just kind of I wouldn't even look at her. I wanted to keep my eyes on them. And I sort of pulled at her jacket. And I said, are you seeing what I'm seeing? But I didn't say what I was seeing. And she said, yes, yes. And so when we got back that night to the hotel, she told me what she saw. And it was exactly what I had seen. Then the next day, I found out that others had seen it, and some saw nothing. And then that was the shaman that we went with. He said he always appears. And interestingly, He was there when my son was in the accident, and he saw that being again with my son moving away from the mountain into another, into a cosmos, so to speak. So he very interesting, a being really. Mm-hmm. But, but the sacred plant is sacred because it allows us to release that valve and that vast cosmos can come in. Yeah. Now the shamans always say you're not gonna get more than you can deal with, that it will come in a way that you can assimilate. So sometimes people have, like, I had that experience, and later in my life with plant medicine and without, but with plant medicine, I also had the experiences of the cosmos and the deep love and and creativity of the universe of which we are. So no, they are not subjective. You will see your own life within that. But what is wonderful about them is that it opens that valve so that we see something so vast that, that we had so forgotten exists. So it's, it's not subjective. And scientists have been really slow in coming around to that. But I think that they are doing a lot of research now in many different kinds. And you know, the early Christians, this was wiped out by the church, but there's a book called The Psychedelic Gospels, and there are paintings in various churches that show the use of mushroom and sacred medicine during these early times. And certainly Jesus was a shaman and he taught a hidden tradition. Yeah. And, and that was how there, he taught the round dance. There's a also a text talking about that. And so the round dance is a way of also going into the sacred space of who we are. So I think he taught probably many methods, but he certainly talked about crossing the veil into the Holy of Holies, which in Judaism is that experience of the cosmic mind.

Yeah. Well, again, there's so, there's so much I do want, want to ask you about that. But just for people that are, 'cause there's so much coming, I wanna just catch people up. Um, you know, because we talk about the brain in the West as the center of consciousness. And the brain generates consciousness, and we forget about the heart, we forget about the stomach. And we think the brain, again, generates consciousness. And I love the way you keep using this term valve, because I've come to think of the brain as more of a receiver, but also a reducing valve, that there's, there's so much going on around us that we can't really handle while we're trying to live our day-to-day lives. So our brain filters that out. And in the West, I think we've gotten so caught up with that, that we just become totally blind. The other thing I want to ask you, because I, again, just as current to me as you're talking, is all these great religious texts and all these myths, we call them myths, with such deep truth behind it. Do you think that people were actually reaching into these altered states and bringing back truth that we just can't even see at this point?

I do. And that's what gave me such a deep interest in mythology. And also I realized that in these ancient traditions, these sacred plants were used. So I knew I can't be this typical Western professor who's going to say, well, you know, there's nothing to this, or it's just hallucinations, as not all, but many did. I have to experience that. I can't teach something I haven't experienced. Even in, like, Eleusis in Greece, in the Minoan civilization on Crete, they clearly use these medicines And if you had a vision with the medicines, that was celebrated. If you had a vision without, that was celebrated. Is that the Western world has tried to make them something negative, and it's not at all. But I agree completely with you. What it is is that it does release that valve and allows us to remember and experience what we were born out of. And, but I think we've just forgotten all of that and negated it. I've heard people who are working in shamanism and they would say, oh, but I would never use medicine. I mean, I'm gonna do it on my own. Well, you know, that's— I feel the kind of misunderstanding because why wouldn't I want to relate to a plant and have a relationship and allow that relationship to open something in me that I hadn't experienced before? It's not— I don't have to be the great one who does it all alone. We don't do anything alone. It's because of other creativity that we can experience it all.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting thing you just said, because I've heard a lot of people say that I want to reach a state, quote, on my own. And you know why? Because I think our brains are evolved, again, to keep us alive. And they're evolved to see what's right in front of us, or evolved to see the danger that's around us. And the more I study the brain, and more the illusion— our brain does not present the world to us as it really is. Our brain is tricking us all the time for our own benefit. It's to keep us safe. But it doesn't present the world as it is. So if there's a medicine that can help our brain to allow us to see what's really around us. I think that's a fantastic thing.

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian D Smith as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grieftogrowth.com, www.grief2growth.com. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grieftogrowth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth. Growth, to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief to Growth.

Oh, yes, as someone said, every president ought to have to take a journey before, before he goes into office. And you'd see things in such a different way. Well, that's kind of a funny way to put it. But I think that this is a great gift. And isn't it interesting that nature herself has all of these ways for us to experience nature and ourselves. I think that's such a beautiful gift. But you know, I talk about in The Merchants of Light, many of these early, the ancestral groups that did know how to do this, and who did experience cosmic consciousness. And it, and it lasted for several thousand years. For instance, the cave cultures But also the San Bushmen in Africa. They were in the Kalahari Desert, and now they— well, Graham Hancock calls them a murdered culture, like so many places that the white people have colonized and destroyed those teachings because they were connected to the earth in a way that, that the West isn't and wasn't. And so, but the San Bushmen were, they were been there for thousands of years. They say, we've been here 65,000 years doing these rituals, experiencing this consciousness. Archaeologists say about 33,000, as they can mark from all of the artwork they have all over the place, the etchings of their journeys into the other world. But— and they may actually have influenced the cave cultures, but archaeologists say the cave cultures came first. But they both had contact with that consciousness. But the San did not use sacred plants. They're in the desert. But they developed techniques through dancing and repetitive movements, chanting, and little bells on the ankles. And that's a— and majority of the women and majority of the men are shamans. And they say they go in, they can dance and dance and dance until they say that energy boils up in them and comes out the crown chakra. And they're there. And they're the etchings on the rock are their journeys. And we know this, thank God, because in the 19th century, there were still some of the shamans left who would talk to— there was a German and there who recorded what they, they told him about these experiences. So that's good. We don't have that with the cave cultures. But at any rate, they would have this energy would be so powerful. They did not do it alone sitting cross-legged in a meditation. That's another culture. In fact, When a person, uh, Bradford Keeney, and I'll talk about him in a minute, when he went there and told them that in, that there are cultures on the planet who also achieved that, and he talked about the East and being alone and meditating, they said, oh, how sad.

Yeah.

That they would do it alone because they're together. They touch, they hold, they dance together. And then when this energy is very, very powerful, they're able to make little arrows out of that energy. And then throw it to someone who could receive it. And, and, you know, in India, they talk about shaktipat. The, the master will hit you on the head with an ostrich feather or touch you at the third eye. And Andrew Harvey, when I told him about that ability of the San Bushmen, he said, that's the ultimate shaktipat, because you cannot help but feel it. And, you know, you see, even in the cave culture, you'll see people, you know, kind of floating with arrows in their body, or needles And I think they knew that too, because people didn't know what to make of those images. But I think this is so powerful with the San, and they have the love and the joy of life, and they will help someone else to achieve it who hasn't gotten into that place of consciousness. And they are such a joyful culture in spite of all that's— how, how they've been condemned. In fact, I think it was till the '30s 1930s, that in South Africa, you could buy a license to go hunt them. And can you imagine that? And, but they've survived. But Lawrence van der Post talks about them. And I have a lot of what he says about them in the book, too, in addition to Bradford Keeney. But he just, you know, they, they had such a love for life and a joy, and they love to imitate everything. And they had such a sense of humor, not to make fun, but just for the joy of it, the good thing of life itself. And they, they continued this, they say, for 65,000 years. Now, there are only a few left, however.

Right. I think, you know, it's really interesting having grown up, you know, in the West and in our modern culture, how we look at these other cultures, and we call them, quote, primitive, when usually they are much more developed in the ways that matter than we are. And they're living very happy lives. And we, and we say, well, because they don't have material things,. And I wonder if we are so caught up in the material things, because we've forgotten who we are. My, my theory is that the biggest problem that mankind has on this planet is we don't know who we are. We have literally forgotten what kind of beings we are, what our history is, how we got here, how we're connected to each other. And we need to recapture that wisdom that we had. It's not like— it's not discovering it. It's just— it's re— it's remembering it.

Yeah, I agree with you completely. The first vision I had after Pishti's death was that chanting spiral, as I told you about, spiraling down. And these were beings, it seemed to me, from all over the universe, who had come to help us wake up. And they were chanting, and I knew what they were saying. They were saying, our brothers and sisters on the planet, on the Earth, are dreaming a terrible dream.

I love that.

Yeah, are dreaming a terrible dream. And they wanted— they— we asked them, they wouldn't come without our asking. We realized our need, that we'd forgotten all of this. We didn't know who we are. Yet with the San, they have no possessions. They love and trust nature, know it. They can communicate with each other at vast distances. They will have like just a little pushing on the heart when they know something's coming through. I mean, we have so many abilities we know nothing about. And they still have some of those abilities. But we— the West has been cruel in its negation, and the university in just dismissing it. And no, that's nothing. And I think this is our time to remember who we are.

I sure hope so. You just said something there, because there's, to me, there's so much wisdom. You said we're dreaming a terrible dream. I don't know if you're familiar with the work of A Course in Miracles. And the theory behind that whole thing. This is a communication that was from Jesus that was transferred, I think, in like the 1970s. And the theory is that we're all, we're all dreaming, that we are— this, this whole thing is just a big cosmic dream. And it's frankly turned into a nightmare.

It has. And I think that, you know, we're here to create— I mean, I still agree that, you know, the divine is whole and one. And eternal, but we can do nothing but create. I had a vision of that at Machu Picchu, that, uh, early when I was really trying to remember myself, and, uh, I was, uh, on a gurney, and these spirits were quickly taking me to, to, um, Huayna Picchu, which is called the sacred mountain of the old woman. But there, and I thought, oh great, I'm gonna go into the mountain. I'm going to, The great masters are there, and they're going to tell me, you know, things. And then when they got to the mountain, boom, it stopped. And then suddenly that vision just, it just opened. I am the masters. I am the mountain. We all are this. There were no masters there to teach me. We are the masters. Wake up and know who you are. That was just the most profound thing. And then the next thing, I found myself in a forest sitting saying what a Western mind would say, but I can't create a world. And then the spirit said to me, you just did create a world in which you cannot create. We can do nothing but create it. That just was so astounding to me. And the voice said, we can do nothing but create. And that's what the Divine does. It creates constantly, all of them, billions and trillions and infinite ways we can meet each other in time and space in this dream, love each other and create together. I mean, it's just, but we We've forgotten that. And that's the terrible dream. And we can dream dreams in which we kill each other. Or even now, you think we don't know who we are. So we're talking about transhumanism, and making the human being with a machine and making him better when we don't even know this divine, infinite creative being that we are. Yes, absolutely dangerous, dangerous dream.

It is. And I want to ask you, because I asked you for a list of questions. And one of the questions I wanted to ask you is in what way did the Roman Church determine the development of materialistic science? Because, you know, we've been told, and I— or not we— I've observed that science, you know, leads to— can seem to lead to materialism. We say science is materialism. So anything we can't measure, we can't, we can't see, is not real. So in what way did the Roman Church contribute to that?

Okay, and this is really true. I agree with you. The science that we have had since the 1600s, well, really the 1700s, that science has been very limited. And quantum physics now has gone way beyond that. And it does see multiple universes for sure, multiple dimensions of reality. But if we can go back to these cultures of our ancestors that did exist, like the cave cultures, the San culture, and the Egyptian culture was just incredible in these initiates who knew and could experience that. And that's on the pyramid walls, the pyramid texts, thanks to Jeremy Daidler, we know that. And then there, the paintings have been revealed in the, and the text. Now, these people were incredible how they knew about this consciousness and knew how to step into it. But then there was the Hebrew culture. And now we know that the early Hebrew culture was a shaman, mystic culture. And it wasn't until 621, when the Deuteronomist changed everything. So here was a group, a power structure. And for various reasons, I assume, they threw out the shamanic wisdom texts. Now, many Jews took them to Egypt and saved them. That was no longer part of Judaism. This, the feminine, which was a symbol of the soul, of nature, of love, and relatedness, out No more, no more. There's only a male god, Yahweh. But the text before showed Yahweh and Wisdom, his feminine counterpart, they created the universe together. And then afterwards, he made it all by himself, and his memory seems to lapse. And also, he becomes a tyrant and violent without this soul. But at any rate, it was 621 when the Deuteronomist changed that. Now, Jews went in various places and kept this alive. And I think it emerged again in Kabbalah later in Europe. But then there was the Jesus tradition, which is actually a rebirth of that shaman mystic tradition. Jesus was the Jewish attempt to bring back that shaman mystic experiential tradition of gnosis. And there were Jews who would have nothing to do with the Second Temple. This was the First Temple, tradition. And, but later, when the Jesus tradition began, there were Jews who were Essenes, they were at the Dead— around the Dead Sea, where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. Those were Jews who felt they were holding the true covenant of the Jews, the true covenant of God, which was mystical experience. And then there were Essenes all over the place at that time. And there were the Therapeutae, in Egypt, and they were Jews. Even some of the early church fathers thought that Jesus probably had, had been born out of that mystical tradition. And there were other mystical traditions. But the Jesus tradition, when the church came along, well, even earlier, they started inverting the Jesus tradition into believing in him, following him, not becoming him. But But the hidden tradition that Jesus taught was that you do not follow me, you become who I am. Yeah, you drink.

I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's not even that well hidden. It's there in the text, but they've totally distorted it. I mean, Jesus says it all the time that you're going to become me, you can do greater things than I am.

Exactly.

You know, eat of my body. I mean, he says it all the time.

Yes. And the communion. Yes. Like, that's who. And then when the Roman Church wanted to gain power over all of its territories, he thought this tradition would be something that would help him do that. But only the tradition is they changed it. And so they inverted the Jesus tradition into he's the God, and you must obey and follow him. And we'll tell you, by the way, what to do. So they inverted that. And so then, every tradition that tried to nurture experience, the experience of that tradition. And there were the Cathari, the Cathars, and there were various people all over. Of course, they call them the heretics. There were groups of people all over the ancient world who knew and held on to this tradition, but they were murdered and destroyed in every way they possibly could. They went underground, and the Egyptian tradition, alchemical, and then there were the later, the pre-Socratics, thanks to Kingsley's, Peter Kingsley's work, we know they were shamans and mystics too. We just thought they were philosophers, you know, but they influenced Plato, but Plato kind of turned it around. And so we had all of these traditions, but the church was constantly denying their reality, destroying them. And I have to say, vast programs of murdering them. So how did they influence the materialistic science. Shamans have always been scientists to the degree that they can. And in the '60s, all of these underground traditions reemerged in the High Middle Ages at this, uh, in Europe. And it reemerged to some degree, continued in the Italian Renaissance, and then that reemerged in 1600 in, uh, the old Bohemian world, uh, of Prague. And there was a Catholic Rudolph who was in charge, but he was interested in all these traditions, so he allowed them all to be there. There. And they were really scientists, engineers, mystics. And so they were really working on figuring this all out through the mystical and the scientific method, scientific process. Sure. And the church wiped them out, destroyed their texts. It was not even known that that Renaissance occurred until the 20th century. And, and then the texts were were found by Frances Yates. And she couldn't believe the world that was— she said, like an onion, I've taken layer after layer and realizing this mystical scientific world. And she realized that they were the ones who gave mathematics and the scientific approach to the West. Well, so, but when they were destroyed by the Catholic, the Roman Church, then of course people went underground. These scientists went back to their own places and could not speak of ever having been a part of that. But then there was a 30 Years' War between the Protestants and Catholics. After that, then in 1660, the Royal Society for the Study of Science developed in England. It was really clear after all of that killing and repression and suppression that you could not possibly study the mystical consciousness, because the church would not allow it, you'd be dead. And so science began with severe suppression from the Roman Church. There was no way they could do that and survive. And as— and there were some scientists there who'd been a part of that earlier movement, and they knew. But, uh, and then gradually, gradually, scientists thought there was nothing else but matter because they had no tools to study the other. It was there, but they didn't have the tools. And it wasn't until that made a full circle turn into quantum physics that, oh my God, you know, they can't even take a step forward in science unless they go inward and recognize that world.

You know, that's fascinating. And that's, that's a little bit of history I didn't know about the church and how it influenced the materialism. Because, you know, the idea we were not even allowed to study consciousness. And I feel like, you know, we've been asleep pretty much for the last couple hundred years. And I just thought it was good, because we just thought we know everything. It's like when the Patent Office declared, like, the 1800s, like, everything that can be invented has been invented. And people thought, well, we've got all these instruments now, we can measure everything. But I think it's interesting, if you go back, you look at some of the scientists like Einstein and, um, Max Planck and Bohr and all those guys, they understood the importance of consciousness. And the, the very early scientists believed in God and believed that man was made in the image of God. And they— that's why they studied the universe, because they thought it was orderly the way God created they deleted it, and then we just got totally lost. So it's really good knowing that, that little bit of history. And this is why people need to understand things that people might find boring, maybe church history and stuff like that. It's important to know that these traditions were killed. The Gnostics, you know, and we, we find some of these Gnostic texts and we're taught, oh, they're heretics, those are, those are bad people, don't listen to them.

I know it It's the great tragedy of the West that our experiencing our own consciousness of who we are, the deep, true spiritual experience has been suppressed again and again, and not gently. I mean, there were vast periods of murder and repression and destruction. And that story is simply true. I mean, the Cathars in the 1200s were destroyed. They, they were killed, destroyed, burned, and they did no one any harm. In fact, they were very influential because they held on to this ancient tradition. But any tradition that did was destroyed. And someone, you know, it's not about blame. It's just about looking at what happened. It's just history.

It's not about blame, but it is about power. The thing is, you know, if people are turning within, And if you tell people that you are basically gods, that you are divine, then why would they listen to the government? Why would they listen to the church?

And that's what— yeah, exactly.

And I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but this is the biggest conspiracy that's ever been, is telling people that you have no power, you have no authority. You need to, as you said, follow Jesus, but listen to us.

Yes. And you know, you have said it exactly This is what, from the Deuteronomist to the Roman Church to the Habsburg Empire, the state politically, it's always been to keep that secret from us that we are divine, we are immortal, and we are creative. It's all within us, and they have tried to keep that secret. When LSD was being used in the '60s, the government was open to it when they thought they could use it in some devious way. Then they closed it down when they saw What was happening? So this is the conspiracy. And, you know, of course, that whole idea of conspiracy theory is that it's always if anyone says anything against their plans, that's what it is, you know.

Exactly.

But, and this is, I think you just said it beautifully, is that this is the problem with the West, that we have been suppressed and forced in many ways into believing that we are nothing. Therefore, you follow us, we know, The church knows, the Deuteronomist knows, the government knows, the health agencies know. We have a responsibility to find out for ourselves what is real. And everything today hinges on that discovery.

Yes, yes, our very survival, I think, hinges on that. You know, as we were speaking, I was thinking about even to this day, you know, the drug laws, okay, so alcohol is legal, we drink all the alcohol you want, you can smoke cigarettes, you know, whatever. But you can't take plant medicine. And I've been interested in doing— my wife was asking me last night, she said, would you ever do that? We were watching something where someone's taking plant medicine. I said I would do it, not recreationally, but I would do it under supervision. I think it's, it's, you know, I've been very interested in this for a while. A guy sent me a book many years ago. He had gone to South America to take an ayahuasca trip. First I'd ever heard about that. But I think today there are a couple places in the US you could do it, but still largely illegal. Mushrooms are illegal.

Of course, anything that is going to release that secret to us is illegal and you shouldn't do it, it's bad, and you should do it— whatever you do, do it on your own. Well, it's, um, you know, I, uh, was interviewed by, uh, a person not long ago who had been an addict for many, many years. Mm-hmm. He was in prison. Uh, and he, uh, he told me, he said, I've been clean now, I don't know, for a very long time. And when I met him, he said, the way that happened for me is that I took plant medicine and I experienced that cosmic consciousness. He said, after that, I never wanted, I never once desired to do drugs again. So I think they're also discovering that many of these plant medicines can heal this horrible addiction we have, much of which is grown out of this despair and horror of the limited world that we live in. And if we don't experience ecstasy, we can't really live. The ecstasy is our birthright.

Yeah. And there is some research slowly leaking out now where they've done microdoses of some plant medicines under the right conditions, and people being cured of all kinds of stuff, drug addiction, depression, anxiety, with, you know, with maybe even one, one trip, you know, with a shaman that guides them that says, hey, the world's not as bad as you think it is, you're being fooled into thinking that it's a terrible, terrible place.

And I think any, any time that we are presented with a situation that is horrible, and everybody gets afraid, is filled with fear, this is the perfect setup for control. And the government to step in and say, well, we can handle that, we can solve that. But you'll have to do exactly as we say. And this is a very dangerous thing. And it's happened again and again But ours, and you know, this whole thing with thinking that this whole egotism that has developed in the West of thinking they're better than any culture they went into. I mean, they never knew the San, they couldn't possibly, or the native people here, or the native people in other places. They couldn't see because they had no idea. They were ignorant. We are ignorant often and blinded to the depth of heart heart consciousness. It doesn't even exist. Heart's just an organ. And we could not see these people. They couldn't tell us anything. They couldn't reveal anything because we were so egotistical. We would let nothing else in. We are superior. And anytime— this is, I think, the danger that we face often. And today is that a group of people will be able to gain enough power that they begin to get sick, very, very sick, sicker than the usual Western mind, into this this feeling of superiority, and that they can then figure out what they're going to do with the whole planet now, how they're going to do it, and who is worthy of living and not. I mean, it's a, it's a demigod, it's a craziness and an insanity that is the result of us not maintaining that ancient tradition of discovering who we are. So it gets— the ego gets flipped wrong side out. And we think that we're superior and we can control others And that's the solution to it. And it's a great illness that we suffer today.

It is. That's the exact right word. It's a real illness. So let's talk about what, what is the, what is cosmic consciousness? Or what is Christ consciousness? We hear people talk about what does that actually mean for us as individuals?

Yes, well, I think that's what we've been talking about. You know, when we open up to it, just like, oh my God, I just so astounding. It's like, you know, how have we been so blind? It's opening up to a reality in which, you know, it's real. There's not a question. As some of them say, it's realer than real. Because when you experience this vast universal consciousness that is prior to anything material— quantum physicists know this, that it's primary. Consciousness creates matter. Yes. And when we get to the source of who we are, it is that sense of absolute ecstasy and love, and, and delight and joy. And in within that, we can see that, yes, we do come in and we play games in the material world. As one physicist said, what is it, matter is what spirit looks like in the physical world. And it's where we realize we are spirit, we are creating this. And we can create better games. You know, we can create better games. So it's that, just that experience. But I think most of all, you know, people who have near-death experiences often experience that consciousness, and they realize that the love is so intense that they couldn't even have imagined love in that way. But, you know, I think, for instance, when as parents we lose a child to death in the physical world, the grief that we can experience shows the tremendous ability we have to love. You know, it's such a beautiful, deep connectedness. And I think we, we can experience that in that cosmic consciousness. And I think that in the, in the years, that decade that I lost everyone in my family, I grew more in that decade, although I'd always been looking for these things. It was that decade that transformed me, changed me. And And I'm grateful for it.

You mentioned earlier, and there's so much to talk about, like we're not even getting close to everything I'd like to discuss with you. But you mentioned earlier, you had this experience with PhD before he passed. But you also alluded to maybe a few experiences after he passed. So tell me about that.

Yes, in the book, The Miracle of Death, I give those experiences, many my husband and I had many after PhD's death, he was, first of all, well, it was the next day after his memorial that we began. And I remember, Pishya, Ishwan said, that's what Pishya meant, I'll be out of the house for a little while. He came back and Ishwan experienced him and I did too. And he was always so joyful with Ishwan, with his dad. And Ishwan had experiences in which he realized that he and Pishti were one soul. And I had had a vision of that much earlier, that István and Pishti were one. And they had the same name. But, you know, in Hungary, it's— we didn't put the second or third, that kind of thing. But they had the same name. And in the vision, I was told, you thought you agreed to go with that name, that you wanted that name, but he couldn't have been named anything else. They are of one soul. Well, then the first vision that Ishvan had after Pishti's death is that first of all, he wanted us to know he's fine, he's well. And he also wanted us to remember that we knew this, that we had, that we knew that we were going to do this. And then he, he let his father then experience, Ishvan experienced that he was one soul with Pishti. And they went, they said it was just travel through this spiral. And then he was in many different worlds. And he saw in one vision where he saw people of all groups, all ethnic groups that he'd ever heard of, that, and he had, he saw how he and Pishti had been born into, you know, they were those, and that in some lives, they were one. And he said, in the lives when they were one, he said, Pishti didn't have to tell me anything I knew. And then he said, when we were in two different bodies in that world, world, as in this life, then Pishji explained things to him. And it was so interesting, because when he had that journey, and then he told me that, I said, I had that experience that you two were one soul. Well, it was no question to him after that, because he experienced it, he knew it. And, and so we had to— we each of us experienced him many, many times, very, very clearly. Sometimes with plant medicine. And I must say that opened up such a vast reality. But also, we experienced him without plant medicine, especially in the beginning. Ishwan said on the way to work, he said, like, I've been closed off. He said, I realized I could not get into this, because PishTi was going to do that. I could not do that until he died, till he stepped out. And he said, going, it was like tape recorder going off on the way to work reminding him of everything. And he'd come into my study and say, which book should I read next? I've got to make up for 50 years.

Wow, that is awesome.

And he just was— Pishi was there constantly. And I also, I was in a bookshop and I heard some music. It was called Miracles, I found out. I got the music, came home, it just so deeply affected me, put it in Pishi's room and become like a meditation room before he died. And I put started to play in his room, jumped into my sweats. And when I heard the music, I had to go into that room. And when I did, I lay down on the bed, and he was there. And I couldn't see him, but I knew his presence was in the upper right-hand space. And then we went— he says, Mom, let's go through all of the phases of my life together. This was right after he died. And we went through many things that were so, you know, joyful, and some sad. And we were surfing on the ocean of life. And he said to me, you know, just go with the flow, you know, don't get caught, just allow yourself to flow with what is. And so there would be times when I would think, oh, I can't let that go. That would be so deep in me that I just thought I couldn't release that. And I'd start to sink, you know, go down in the ocean. And he would say, no, let it go, live each moment fully. Then let it go. And then at the last, when he was in the trauma center, and I remember thinking, I can't do this, I can't let him go. And then I thought, well, wait a minute, he's already dead, so to speak. And we're together. And then Pishti said to me, I had taught Goethe's Faust. I don't think he knew Goethe's Faust when he was here. But he knew on the other side. And he said, Mom, Remember, remember the problem with Faust, that when he said, linger, linger this moment, thou art so beautiful, that Mephistopheles had him. He was caught. So he said, let it go. Feel it completely, then let it go. And I've prayed to— that was without plant medicine. He was so fully present. But a lot of them experiences very profound, with all of which I have in The Miracle of death. And I— we recorded them. As soon as we had those experiences, we recorded them. And then we transcribed— I transcribed them. And I must say, with the help of Kim— Kim also helped me transcribe them. And then when I wrote the book, I went right to those experiences, because I did not— I didn't want, want anything that wasn't actually real that had happened, right? And so that book is filled with those experiences. And there were so many of them. And then when Ishtwan I also— that was something. But I did then have his consciousness, and I, I feel their presence. But I, I didn't really have a lot of visions after that. I will feel their presence. But I don't— those were just extreme initiations, I might say.

Right, right. Well, there's so much as you touched on there, I think is so important for all of us, you know, you kind of touched on soul planning. So I'm going to ask you about whether you believe in soul planning or not, because clearly you thought you guys, they agreed to all this.

It seemed. Yeah.

And the other thing is that I heard you say, you know, you said they're the same soul. I think this idea that we are separate souls, I'm getting more and more away from. I don't know how it all works. But we're like, when people say we're all one, we're literally all one in some sense. And there are some people, I've heard people say, well, you can come in as a soul, and you can be in two different bodies in the same current incarnation. And it sounds like that's what Pishdi and Ishvan were experiencing. They were kind of, they were the same person in two different two different bodies.

Yes. Yes. And he said, they're parallel worlds, parallel universes. And Ishvan thought that we were, we were playing the same game for a purpose in parallel worlds. And that sometimes it's like deviation. He said, in some worlds, I die first and Pishti stays. But in this one, he went first and I stayed. And I said, well, why would— and I knew though, that, that we would many people are trying to wake up from this fear of death. If we know that we're eternal, and this is what our ancestors— this was the heritage they wanted us to have, that we are immortal and creative and divine. But we lost that. So I could see playing a game, a deep, serious game, in which death— it's very clear that death is is not what we thought it was. And that so many things were not, but that we are immortal. And it seems— I don't know exactly all of the reasons. But it would seem that I know my feeling was, if in writing that first book, that if, if I could help anyone get through the loss of a child or anyone they love, then it was worth it.

Yeah. And what you just said, I think that perspective, we've got everything so flipped upside down, in our inner culture. If we have the perspective that this is the game, this is the dream, this is the simulation, that we are eternal beings. Because when, when a parent loses a child, the first thing is why? Why would this happen? Why would God allow this to happen? And I hear— I've heard so many parents say, well, I would never ever plan this. Well, no, not as a human being, you would not, because you think they're gone. But if you think of yourself as an eternal being, that's still connected with them, that's going to see them again someday. And you see the growth. I mean, I look at you, and you're just so full of joy and life and wisdom, you know, partially as a result of the tragedies you've experienced.

Absolutely.

And we— and so as, as eternal wise beings, we'd say, yeah, I'll do that. I'll take that on. I'll agree to go first. I'll agree to be the one, you know, this time that stays because it's going to, it's going to spark this growth in me. Like you said, with Ishwan, you know, he opened up, he like blew open.

He did.

Yeah.

Yes. It's, but you know, I think that's part of not knowing who we are, is that we don't realize our creativity. And it just, sometimes I think, well, I don't want to come back to this world. It's really crazy thinking. And I think, no, I'll get on the other side. And I I'll see clearly that if I can do any, anything, I would come back. But I think we don't know that, that, that we have enormous effect. We forget that. And we said, well, just, I'm just an ordinary person. Yeah, that's great. We all are that. And but we have powerful potential to change the world around us. And to it, we just don't know the power each each person has, not a person without it.

Right? Well, yeah, I know, as we were talking, I was thinking, I know you're part of the Forever Family Foundation. I'm part of an organization called Helping Parents Heal. So we had a conference a few years ago, we're sitting there, all of us parents who have had children that have passed. And we're all to the person saying, I will never do this again. This is my last time. Now we're going to be— when we get over the other side, we'll be sitting around, we'll be telling stories about this, but we're never doing this again. And I said that, I said it many I don't say it anymore. You know, I, because I'm like, I'm starting to understand once we get back to the other side, and we see the bigger picture, we're the people that are going, yeah, I'll do it again.

Oh, yes. And we say one little stone thrown into the water, and you see all of those ripples. And I think when we see that, we think, oh, yeah, that's what I want to do. Because we know that we can play incredible games and learn incredible things and experience experience so many things. But we can also create a world in which there's so much suffering, and so much death, and so much loss of consciousness, that it isn't worth playing. It's too painful. It kills us. It kills the soul, that we don't want that kind of game to be played anywhere. And if we can get a glimpse into how to change it, we'll come back again and again.

Let me ask you one last question. I literally could talk to you all day long. So we— I would like— want to ask you, because I've heard a lot of people say that we are we as humankind are waking up, you know, that we're going through a period of transformation. So what are your thoughts on that? Do you think we are? What do you think? What do you think humanity is in terms of our evolution of consciousness?

Well, in Emergence of Light, I really addressed that. And I was so amazed when I started doing that research, that in the 20th century, we discovered so much about this past that we didn't know— our scientific work, our mysticism, the cultures that we were able to create, and the wisdom that was there. I didn't know, and we didn't know until the 20th century, that there were just so many scholars in the 20th century who discovered these cultures and wrote about them. So we're discovering, oh, who these ancestors were. That's who we are. That's what we can be. And I, I, you know, we launched the book in England at the Scientific and Medical Network Network in 2019 in November. That was a wonderful time because there were people from Russia and from Scandinavia, all of Europe, and more in the West. There were young people, there were middle-aged and very old people. And this scientific network, they've had, I think, 6 Nobel Prize winners in science over the time they've been active. But they had many young people too. And it was such an exciting— it was like teaching in the '60s. You know, because they were so excited and, and they feel that a renaissance is here. In fact, in the book I say there are 5 times this underground traditions have come up, and I mentioned all of them through the 16th, that's called the Rosicrucian, then the German Romantic period. And today, today it's been a renaissance of this knowledge of who we are and what we've done in our potential. And so I think, yes, it is, but I think that we are up against the greatest darkness because we've had all of these centuries of suppression, repression, and now there's this horrible disease of trying to make up for not developing within. And it's the totalitarianism, the, the control, uh, the, and they have technology now. They have so many other things to control and make us even not human because they don't understand. They don't know who we are potentially. Right. Although, and that's very dangerous. So I would say we're up against a great darkness. But if we know who we are and what we're up against, I think we, we can play a very good game. But, and I was also delighted, a friend of mine in the UK just wrote and incidentally mentioned, and I don't remember his name yet. I mean, now, but I didn't know it till she told me. But there's a man who had an experience from Italy, and he's part of into this technology. He had an experience of cosmic consciousness. I mean, vast. And I think she said he developed the iPhone. I'm not sure what, what reason I'm telling this. And what makes me so happy is that there's among these people, there is this person, and perhaps more, who knows who we are. And we need that knowledge. He's playing a very good game if he's in that group. And he knows that. And I just saw that there's a book that's coming out, I think was $100-something on Amazon. So I didn't buy it. But I hope to get it one day. But there are all of these people talking about that who are in this kind of technology, and he's a part of it. And so I think things like that are going to help us heal this horrible illness of the Western mind, now almost a planetary mind, that has been suppressed and distorted and lied to that it's nothing. And you know, it's, well, by golly, I'll create something, you know, when they're superior, they can do it. And so that's an illness. I think that's the darkness we're up against. We need to see it clearly. But we have to also know who we are to do it.

Absolutely. Well, Dr. Kovacs, it's been fascinating speaking with you. And I want to tell people again, the books are The Miracle of Death, which is about your son Pishdi, and the thing that you went through in your grief journey, and also The Merchants of Light about this greater consciousness. And I want to encourage all the listeners that are listening to, to understand who you are, and to turn within and to take back your own power and develop your own consciousness. And there's so much out there, just keep exploring. So any, any last words you want to offer?

No, I just think if we do that, we can play a divine game together.

Yeah.

And heal, truly heal the planet.

Absolutely. Well, thanks a lot for being here. And you have a great day.

Oh, thank you. I enjoyed meeting you so much.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and will come back for future episodes. Brian's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief, the number 2 Growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to growth. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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