Rose Thornton- Her Near Death Experience and Incredible After Effects

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian D Smith says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I've got with me a fascinating woman. Her name is Rosemary Ringer. If you've listened to her earlier podcast she had with me, she's been on before. But Rosemary has been on several podcasts and various platforms. And her, her videos have had more than 3 million views. She's also included different formats, including Life to Afterlife too. So you can actually find her there. I'm going to read a short biography about Rosemary, and then we're going to get started and just have a conversation like we always do. For 20 years, Rose Thornton enjoyed a national reputation as an expert on old houses. She is the author of 10 books. She's been featured on everything from PBS History Detectives to BBC Radio. In 2016, her husband died by suicide, and 2 years later, Rose was diagnosed with a life-threatening illness. After a— after routine medical procedure, Rose bled to death. In heaven, she was told that if she agreed to return to Earth, she'd be restored to wholeness. Subsequent medical tests affirmed that not only had the disease disappeared, but she was also healed of the crippling grief that she'd been going through. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth Rose Ringer.

Thank you.

Yeah, Rose, it is great to have you back. I'm really excited to talk to you again. I hate to compare, compare near-death experiences. But you know, it's interesting. It's— they're different experiences, of course. So they all have different aspects to them. The other thing is some people are just really great storytellers, and you're a really great storyteller. So I want you to tell your story. I know you're an author, you know, you've written several books. And And I'm really excited to tell everybody you've got a new book that by the time this podcast comes out should be available. It's called Remembering the Light. So what I'd like you to do is just tell what happened to you. What is your— what's your book about? What's your story?

Yeah, thank you for mentioning the book. The title is Remembering the Light: How Dying Saved My Life. And as I say a couple times in the book, that's not just the title. That's the fact. And as a writer, it's an interesting juxtaposition of terms. One doesn't think of death as saving your life. Very briefly, my husband, a man that I thought was the answer to a lifetime of prayers, came home for lunch one day and ended his life. And I've always been a sensitive soul. Writers are creative people, creative, I guess artistic people have a tender heart. And I sure was in love with him. And I was devastated beyond words. I pretty much lost my mind. And I struggled so much. And I had 3 prayers I uttered every night, you know, once I kind of got the ability to pray again. But one of my prayers was, God, either heal me or let me die. I knew that I could not continue to live in this state because I was so messed up. You know, I'd always valued my intellect. I used to be a newspaper reporter. I worked as an editor for a time. I had written several books.. And I always thought I was pretty, pretty smart cookie. And yet I could not intellectualize or think my way out of this mess. And then my husband was a man for whom I prayed at least twice a day. And with his suicide, it took away my faith. What happened to those prayers? I'd been specifically praying to protect his life, that God would safeguard his life. And it was like everything I ever knew was gone. You know, I've heard somebody liken it to the house that has always provided you shelter and grace and peace is burned to the ground, and then the foundation is pushed into its own hole. And that's what I felt like. I, I didn't even know where to begin. How do you even begin? And so I struggled this way for some time. But anyway, the three prayers were, God, either heal me or let me die, because I was so miserable. And secondly, when I do die, no life review. I had had recurring nightmares of his death. And the nightmares were horrific beyond what words can describe. And thirdly, I had had to face so many difficult decisions after his death. And I asked God, I can't do the decisions anymore. You know, something I know that you understand, and a lot of your listeners will understand is trauma scrambles your brain. And when you've always thought of yourself as both a smart person and a person of faith, and that goes away, you don't have a lot left. And so I couldn't get my moorings. I just couldn't figure out how to, how to stop the downward spiral. I was like, I was reaching to grab on to something and I couldn't find anything. And the downward spiral continued. And I actually made a very detailed plan of how to end my own life. And when the pain got to be too great, I would just sit and imagine how that would feel, that it would one day be over. So I was not— I was pretty messed up. To say the least. And yet I, I kept telling myself, hang on for 24 more hours. You know, there's, there's a scene in the movie, in one of the movie, I guess I shouldn't mention, but a movie with Tom Hanks where he's stranded on a desert island. And then one morning, the incoming tide brings in a sail, he's able to construct a boat and go out. And I kept telling myself, you never know what the next morning will bring, try to hang on for 24 more hours. But it's not a great way to fight suicidal urges. It's really not. And it was willpower, you know. So, so in fact, on the decision fatigue, one of the interesting things is I was down to not even being able to handle what to wear. So I bought myself 4 pairs of jeans and 12 white polo shirts, really nice, you know, nice quality polo shirts. So the morning I opened my closet, and I didn't even have to make a decision about color, I just opened the the closet and I grabbed a white polo shirt and my pair of jeans and I was done. But that's where I had gone from being somebody who's written books. I mean, one of my books took 6 years to research and write. And just the amount of bookkeeping and keeping track of stuff was enormous. But that was the former me, the new me wanted to be able to pick out clothes that required no decision. So that was my life. And then 29 months into this, I was diagnosed with stage 2 cervical cancer.. And I really thought that this was just the final twist of the knife. I thought, how can I believe in God? And after all this, now I'm dealing with a cancer diagnosis. And I didn't understand it. Actually, one of the first things I said, you know, somebody said, if you're angry at God, it's okay. It means at least you're still talking. And I just kind of said to God, and I guess a loosely formed prayer, I said, I was pretty clear, let me die. Or heal me, not let me linger with a painful death. So I went in for a cervical biopsy. I actually had two doctors' opinions, multiple tests, and the cervical biopsy was mainly more than just the cervical— it was to see how far all this had spread. They knew it was a stage 2, but they're trying to figure out nearby areas, etc. So after that procedure, I, you know, you're in the recovery room, and they're off you go, out with you. And I explained to the RN, that I was bleeding an awful lot. And she said, well, once you get home and lie down, you'll feel better. That was pretty dismissive, and not appropriate. And I told her that 2 more times that something's gone awfully wrong. I've been, I've been in this body for 58 years, or actually 59. And something's not right. And she's— anyway, she dismissed me. So I got in the car dutifully and went home. By the time I got home, it's just getting worse. And I stepped into my I had this beautiful wall-to-wall, very light tan carpet. And I was very concerned about making a mess on the carpet. Because when you're bleeding to death, housekeeping is a priority.

Right.

Don't want to leave a mess. So I actually stepped into my white tiled shower and just stood over the— stood in there. I didn't know what to do. I mean, I'm bleeding profusely. I've just left a hospital. They did. They seemed like, oh, you'll be fine.. And I realized standing in that shower, one of the very first prayers or Bible verses that had touched my heart was days after his death. It was, I think it's 1 Corinthians 10:13. But it's God will show you a way out. And I had clung to that. And the way I interpreted it was, I'll either get out of this misery, or I'll get out of this life. But I can't stay in this mental place. So standing in that shower, and you know, we have a knowing, We know what's going on. And I realized I'm, I'm dying. Something's gone wrong, an artery nicked, who knows, but I'm dying. You can't lose this much blood for this long and not be dying. So I leaned against that shower wall. And I thought to myself, you know, maybe this is God's mercy. Maybe this is the answer to my prayers that God will show me a way out. Maybe this is the way out. Maybe God's showing me an open door and I can be gone. So I really thought about that. And I thought, you know, all you have to do is sit down on the shower floor, because I was always already getting dizzy and weak. And I thought, I have to sit down on the shower floor, and it won't be long. And it will not have been by my own hand. I won't leave my children with a legacy that he left. I will— everyone will say, wow, you know, how unfortunate, her first medical procedure, and it kills her, you know. But I was very close to that. Because it really did feel like God was saying, it's okay, you fought hard, you fought long, you clung to the Bible verses, you've done everything you could do. But a person can only take so much. It's okay.. But I also thought, two of my dear friends had brought me home from the hospital. And one of those friends, who, whom I have mentioned before, had stayed with me for 29 months to take care of me. And basically, he was in the caregiver role, because I was not able to feed myself. I had lost about 40 pounds at this point, I was looking pretty darn thin. And he had stayed with me throughout everything. And I thought, you know what, these two people that love me are on the other side of this bathroom wall sitting in my living room. And after all they've invested in keeping me here, is it really fair for them to walk into this room in a few minutes and see that I've expired in the bathroom? And it really, really bugged me. I thought, that's not fair. They've got a lot invested in me. So I stood up, I walked out, I said, take me, or I said, call 911, I'm dying. They did. They took me to a tiny little ER not too far from my home. And it was a standalone ER, which meant, you know, they didn't, they weren't even connected to a hospital. Note to self, not a great idea if you're in real trouble. And there, this RN about my age held my hand. And I was very frightened at this point, because I'm like, you know what, I'm ready to live. Let's do this. And I grabbed her hand and said, promise me you're not going to let me die. And she said, oh, honey, we have many solutions for this. We're not gonna let you die. And very definitive, very authoritative. And I looked in her eyes, and I saw literally, mother love. I mean, she was so loving, and so confident, so clear. And that's really comforting. You know, it's, it's not just what they say, but you can feel what they're feeling. And she was very authoritative. We're not— you're not going to die, you're not going to die. So the doctor came in and examined me and made some not great choices. And they gave me a shot of Dilaudid, which is a morphine derivative. And, and then they left me there. And now my friend has joined me, he was sitting at my side. And they left me in that room and exited the room. And boy, after that Dilaudid hit, because think about it, I was already down quite a bit of blood. And now they've given me this morphine derivative, which I think that's kind of what finished me off. I talked with a medical professional who had told me that when you're on the cusp of bleeding out, and you get something like morphine, it's more than— say you're down 50% blood volume, it's more than a double dose, just because of the dynamics of the whole thing or the physics. So I think once that dilaudid hit my heart, I think that was the end. But I lost consciousness pretty quickly. Like real quick. And I was in a deep dreamless state. And I woke up the moment my heart stopped. And I woke up being catapulted out of my body. And I was catapulted into this perfect, velvety, comforting whackness. I couldn't see a thing. And one of my first thoughts was, my heart has stopped. And I thought, how do I know that? I thought, I don't know how I know that. But I know that's right. Heart has stopped. And then I thought, wow, I'm dying. And then being the longtime editor, I said, actually, you're not dying, you're dead. Correction, correction, right? We want to get the proper tense. Because when you're going on to your reward, you need to make sure your English is proper. And And that made me laugh out loud, literally. I thought, here I am, literally gone, dead. My life has ended. And I still have my macabre sense of humor. And but the beauty part of it all was, I still had my goofy little giggle. I heard myself giggle. And I thought, wow, I don't have breath sounds. I'm pretty sure I don't have vocal cords. And yet I'm still producing sound. And I'm still hearing sound. And I sound exactly like I've always sounded. And even in these seconds, who knows what time is on the other side? I don't know what time is. But I thought, every single thing I am has gone with me, has made the transition. I left nothing behind on that gurney. And I thought some more about it. And I thought, I'm the happiest I've ever been. I know the most perfect joy, the most perfect peace I've ever known. I thought I did leave something behind on that gurney. I left stress, anxiety, worry, fear, Everything that one would consider negative, I left behind on that gurney. And yet there's, again, it's hard to describe, but it's like there were 1,000 thoughts going through my head at once. It felt like my whole life, my brain, you know, my smart brain had been working at 60 amps. And now we had an infusion of 100,000 amps. I never knew I could think so many thoughts at once. And they were all really interesting thoughts. But one of the thoughts I had was, all my life, I've wondered, what would take me out? Now I know. And then I thought, one less thing to worry about. One more thing off the list. And I thought about my husband's suicide, which is pretty interesting that I, I remembered that. And yet it was, it was kind of detached from emotion. And I remember thinking, I didn't do this to myself. All those suicidal ideations I did not do this to myself, and my children will be spared. And, and I remember thinking, it's over. I don't have to be the widow of this man anymore. I don't have to be upset. I don't have to be worried. It was just, just incredible. And my predominant feeling, if one could identify and isolate such a thing, was gratitude. I was so grateful. I mean, my whole life, even, even during the hardest times, I tried to keep a list of my daily 5 things for which I'm grateful. And sometimes it's the moon was really pretty last night. And sometimes, like, it's 5 degrees here this morning where I am in the Midwest. And sometimes it's I'm in a warm house. I'm not outside, I have shelter. I have slippers for my feet. So the gratitude list is something I've done my entire life. So floating away from my body, I thought, I'm just so grateful. I'm just so grateful. It's over. It's over. It's over. It's over. I'm so glad I didn't do this to myself. God gave me— it really felt like I'd been given early release for good behavior. No kidding. Seriously felt like that. And the chemotherapy had already been arranged. The— I was supposed to do once a week chemotherapy for 6 weeks, and then daily radiation for 6 weeks. And I was told there's a 70% chance that that would fix it. If not, it's another round. And I thought, no chemotherapy for me, I got out of that thing. And there were so many thoughts. And one of them was Paul's verse, the peace that passeth all understanding. And I thought, This is what Paul was talking about. This is that peace. Nobody can define or explain away— explain what this peace is. But this is peace. And I was in this, again, this perfect blackness. I've heard people refer to it as the womb of creation, which I think is pretty interesting. And I thought all my life— not all my life, but the last year since my husband's death, I've been terrified of being in the dark. I always had to sleep with a light on or nightlight or something. And I thought, I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid of being in this perfect blackness. And early on in this experience, I felt this enormous spiritual presence to my left and slightly behind me. And by enormous, because I'm floating away from my body. And again, I can't see what I've left, but I know I'm, I'm going on. And this enormous physical presence was just so so happy to see me. I know that sounds childlike. But that was my feeling. It's like, oh, there you are. And I turned my head to the left and looked up. And I thought, how funny that here I am in this new experience. And yet I have a left shoulder to look over. I'm turning my head to the left and looking up. So I realized I have some human-esque form in this new experience. And I asked with a lilt in my voice, and I said, And who are you? And before I could even finish my question, the answer was very clear. And the answer— I know a lot of people who've had NDEs might not agree with this, but to me, it was very clear. It was spoken as well as infused. So I heard the words, but I also got the meaning. And what was spoken was, you are the image and likeness I am the original. And that was life-changing. And I remember thinking, well, that's Genesis 1:27. I remember thinking that would have been good to know back then when I was on earth, you know, having this earthly experience, but I thought, it's okay, I know it now. And it's mine forever. I got it. Because I always wondered, what does it really mean to be made in the image and likeness of God? I mean, what, what does that mean? But now I got it. I got it. It was so cool. I thought, you know, how funny, how interesting, how delightful that the very Bible verse that has challenged me my whole life is the one that gets explained to me in heaven. And one of the very first things that happened to me, I just thought that was so great. And as I floated on, floated further and further along, so many different things happened. So many thoughts were coming to me all at once. And one of the thoughts that was really cool, I realized I had been in this experience before floating away from my body and like in this earth experience. I had done this before. And I asked the angels, I said, hey, hey, hey, this is, this is something I've experienced before. And now I'm with, I guess, a spiritual being, an angel, however you wish to define it. And the message I got was, remember, your mom told you when you were a baby, an infant, newborn infant, you've been given up for dead. And then people prayed over me. And then, to everyone's surprise, I wasn't dead anymore.. And I had come back from the brink of death. No one believed I was dead, but the brink of death. And the angels explained to me, they said, actually, there's a little more to that story. You didn't come close to death, you actually crossed over. And we sent you back then. Wow. They said, yeah, you had stuff to do, we sent you back. So that explained— again, it explained 59 years of not understanding what's going on, because for 59 years, I've always talked about the angels with me. I've heard the angels tell me things, you know, when people pass on. I remember one time, gosh, probably 20 years ago, I came home and I told my then husband, my first husband, I said, Aunt Susie passed. And he said, how could you know that? I just got the phone call. Yes, before cell phones, actually, it's about 25 years ago. And I said, she stopped by to see me. And she thanked me for my prayers. And she said she's going to be on her way now. And that's been my life, you know, and I always felt like such an oddball on this earth. I thought everybody had their loved ones stop by and say, I'll be on my way now.

Wow.

But apparently they don't.

Yeah.

So that answered a lifetime of mystery for me. It really did. It just answered a lifetime that I had always been so different. And as you probably know, when you're the, when you're the different kid in high school or junior high, you often don't get treated very well. And, you know, people talk about, oh, I wish I could go back to my high school years, you know, only to see how many people got incarcerated. That's the only reason I'd want to go back to my high school years. You ought to be put in jail when you put somebody in a locker, p.s. But anyway, so it was not a happy time for me. Actually, junior high was bad, high school was better. So, so many things were explained to me in this experience. I mean, it was just so many things coming at me from every side, but it was all good. And one of the things I guess I should mention at the moment of the separation from my body, I had this very clear imagery that there was like a silver cord from the crown of my head to the bottom of my heels. And it was so somebody pulled back on it like an archer's bow and let it pop. And that's what I felt. That's what just catapulted me out of my body. I've often used the expression, I felt like toast popping out. Yeah, toast popping out of a toaster. I mean, it was a poing. It was very dramatic. And yet it was not jarring. It was not upsetting. It was not jarring. It was not disturbing. It was great. And the whole experience was so full of perfect love, perfect peace. And peace is a verb, you know, not just peace as a noun. Peace is a verb. Peace is an adverb. Peace is an adjective. Peace is everything. And, and now I was with this angelic being that accompanied me through this experience. And I floated further and further away from my body. And, and I recognized, I knew what was happening. You know, there's a belief that when death is very sudden and unexpected, sometimes the soul can get confused and say, what's happening? I had no confusion. In fact, I also had a memory. I had a will in place. And right before I went into the surgery, like hours before, I wrote out on a piece of paper, signed it in my own hand, that what was to become of my dog upon my demise. And I left detailed instructions and instructions that the dog be well provided for. And looking back, I think I think that was a pretty curious thing to do for somebody undergoing a cervical biopsy.

Right.

I think something in me knew that this might not end the way everyone was expecting. So I remembered Bible verses, I remembered my life, I remembered, I remember thinking everyone's going to be very surprised how this turned out. And yet I didn't think about my 3 children. I, and I think that's God's mercy. How can you pass in peace if you're like, oh no, what's this going to do to my kids? So I just think that that's God's mercy. And you know, throughout this experience, I heard somebody screaming my name, and I mean screaming, and I felt almost a bit of, well, panic in this voice. I heard screaming, Rosemary, Rosemary, Rosemary, Rosemary, Rosemary, over and over again. And I never turned around. It was like the voice was some distance behind me. And the more I went into this experience, the quieter the voice got. And the screaming was so urgent. And I remember thinking, well, actually, after I came back from this, I remember thinking, when you hear somebody scream your name, you turn around and look, you almost can't help yourself. You turn around and say, oh, who's that? I never had any inclination to turn around. I knew it was in the past. And it was something back there and I didn't need to think about. And The other thing that occurred to me is in this experience, I was not Rosemary. I was not author, mother, friend. I was just a child of God. I was going home. And that's the other thing. When people say, how could you be so grateful to be dying at 59? It wasn't dying. I was just slipping from here to there. I was just going from the living room to the kitchen. I can't emphasize that enough. And there's a song, going home, going home. I'm just going home. That was what I knew. I, if you had to define it, I would say I felt like I was one billionth of a drop of water going back to the ocean, was going back to my source. I just can't begin to describe how comforting it was. And I felt like I knew it would be good. I knew dying, I mean, my whole life I had read it, read NDEs. Oh my goodness, even started Raymond Moody in '76, Life After Life. I read every NDE book I could get my hands on. And I mean, dozens, obscure ones, popular ones, all of them. And I realized now, why did I have this insatiable curiosity about NDEs? And I realized it was a childhood thing. And I didn't even know it was a childhood thing. So yeah, there was a hunger there to learn more. And the experience was just so beautiful. And, and this is also pretty curious to me is that at some point, I was in a white room. And I don't remember the transition. I remember floating away from my body. And the floating was great. I mean, I remember saying, I very distinctly remember saying, a lot of people say, how do you know you didn't want to come back? I do know. Because I said in this floating, I like floating, floating is fun. This is great. I'm a wordsmith. I know all the big words. I, if I had any thought of coming back, I would have used a much more descriptive, prosaic language than I like floating, floating is fun, this is great. I needed a better quotable quote.

Yeah.

And it's only at some point I end up in this, this white room, and I don't remember the transition. And I've tried and tried and tried. And then I realized, you know what, this is, for some reason I'm not supposed to remember. And that's okay. I have my peace with that. But truly, swear, I swear to you, it's like somebody took my batteries out. It's just, I don't know what happened. But one minute I'm floating, the next minute I'm in a white room. And in this white room, I'm on my feet. Except I think I don't know if I have feet. I wish I'd looked down. I don't know why I didn't look down, but I didn't. But I remember thinking, I don't know if I have feet or legs or what's going on here. But I know I can move with intention. And I saw a door at the far end of the room. And the room was maybe, I, you know, if I had to guess, maybe 15 to 20 feet long. And I saw that door on the opposite end of the room. And I thought, I know what the door is. I've read enough NDE stories, I know exactly what that door is. That door is the point of no return. That's crossing the Rubicon. That's where you go and can't come back. So I pretty much said to the spiritual beings that had accompanied me, out of my way, I'm going for the door. You know, like, clear a path. We're doing the door. And in this room, there was a white mist, almost like a fog, but it wasn't a fog. When you walk into a fog, you feel the chill, you feel the dampness. There was no chill, there was no dampness. It was like it was a fog, but without the humidity. And I thought, this is curious. And yet I could see through the fog to see that door. And I thought, I don't know what this is. And I tried to focus on an individual droplet of this mist. Which you've ever been in a real fog, you're not going to focus on an individual droplet. And yeah, I feel like I should be able to. And one of the angels with me said, your spiritual eyes have not acclimated to this new environment. But these are particles of light that are swirling around you dancing around you. And think of it like a spiritual car wash, that you can't go to heaven with the muck of earth on you. And you have to be cleansed. Well, the way it was explained to me, some people think they've died of a disease process, or even people who might have taken their own life, that has to be washed away from them. And they're restored to their innate, inherent purity, so that they can go to heaven. And, you know, the funny thing is, this is pretty much not aligned with this belief system, the religious belief system with which I had been raised. I thought that was pretty cool, too, that this isn't what we learned in Sunday school. But this is happening. And it also was very beautiful that I would be restored, you know, that I could remember. I think it's John, I guess I should look this up. It says, I shall bring all things to your remembrance. And that's what it was like. It was like, honestly, and not to trivialize the trauma, but this was like waking up from a really intense dream. I can't speak to that enough. And, and it was like remembering who I really am. You know, I'm not this severely damaged former writer. I'm this person that is a child of God. So going through this white room was incredible. And as I walked through this mist, I talked with the angels, angel, I guess. And I got to a door, I got to the door, I really was like, I can't wait, I can't wait to find that door. And I was a little miffed that the door was closed because that that old song I just sang you, Going Home Going Home, talks about going through an open door. And I thought, that door ought to be open. Why is that door not open? And I put my— I had my right hand at my side, and I put my right hand up to push through the door to move through the door. And as I prepare— and also, by the way, I thought it's pretty cool, right-handed on earth, right-handed in heaven. I thought, how cool is it I have a right hand? You know, it's all pretty neat. And as I did so, I asked, is this the divine will for my life? And you know, I couldn't even get through that whole sentence. I said, is this divine? And the answer was, no, it's not. But whatever you decide, you go with all God's grace and mercy and love and care. There is not a wrong decision. And that meant so much to me, after so much emotional agony over making decisions. I was reassured that there won't be a wrong decision. Because, you know, whether to die— well, whether to go on to the next world or come back to this one's a pretty big decision. And I said, okay, I'm doing the door. We answered that question pretty quick. And then I had a vision of that nurse, and vision is the wrong word. It was like I was an observer in a hospital room that I had been placed into the future, an hour, a day, I don't know, I've been placed into the future. And I was a quiet, maybe invisible observer in this hospital supply room. And I saw that same nurse sitting on a metal stool, with her head in her hands, leaning forward and sobbing, great gasp of sobs. And through tears, I could hear her say, I promised that woman I wasn't going to let her die. And I lost her. And I was like, oh, man. Oh, man.

I—

it was, it was rough. And I remember thinking, she is an RN. And she appeared to be my age. And I thought, she's done this before, she'll get through this. You know, it may not be great, but she'll get through this. And then I felt her agony. It was like her agony became my agony. And I recognized that extreme emotional agony is the same agony I had known, you know, this 29 months between my husband's death and my own. And I thought, if I can spare one person on Earth that much pain, I have to go back. And it was a very hard decision, to say the least.

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grieftogrowth.com/brian-d-smith. Www.grief2growth.com. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grief2growth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief to Growth. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone as this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there.

And so I put my right hand back at my side. And I said, and this is kind of funny, I said, it's going to ruin that woman's day if I die. And in a millisecond, I was back on the gurney, lots of stuff happening all around me, thrown into an ambulance pretty quick, taken to a trauma center, a real hospital, and, and was there for several days. And throughout that time, The angels were very present with me. I've heard people come back from an NDE say they feel like they were 50% in this world, 50% in that one. I felt like I was 95% in that world, 5% in this one. I had, again, I had my friends at the hospital bed with me. It's good to have people in the hospital with you when you're not quite altogether there. And I wasn't. But when they would have to step out to go to the cafeteria or run an errand or whatever, the angels would come to my bedside and sing me songs. And they were very beautiful. And they'd light up. The angels would light up as they sang, and the songs were so beautiful. And you could see the music. The music was sparkly and pretty and beautiful. And as they sang, they got brighter and brighter. And I said, you know, I'm really good with houses. I'm an architectural historian. I said, I'm not so good with music. And they said, remembering lyrics and melody, I wanted to remember every single facet of the song that was being sung to me. And they said, This is not for you to remember. This is for your peace. This is for your healing. This is for your joy. And this is a thank you for agreeing to come back, which was profound. And after I got out of the hospital, I sold off everything I owned. I realized the happiest I'd ever been in my known existence on this planet was when I had nothing, was when I was floating away from this body. So I sold off pretty much every single thing I had. I donated research materials to a local library. I traded in my shiny red new Camry. And I bought a slightly used Prius. And then I packed my meager belongings in the back of that car and drove 1,000 miles away to the Midwest to start a new life.

Wow.

Changes. Oh, and I guess the grand pièce to all this, I meant to mention this, you know, these stories are kind of hard to tell sometimes you get where you are in them. The angels told me if I agreed to go back, this is in that in that white room. They said, if you agree to go back, you've been through the white room, and you'll be completely healed of not just the grief, but the disease process too. It'll all be gone. You're, you're getting a fresh start, fresh slate. And when I came back, I noticed I had had some high frequency hearing loss. I had started life in radio, rock and roll stuff. And my hearing was restored. I had a bad knee and a bad shoulder that was made right. I had arthritis in my wrist from 40 years as a typist. It was all healed. And then it took some time, and I had to find a new doctor. But it was affirmed through a subsequent extensive medical test and subsequent surgical biopsies that, as the doctor herself said, not one cell of the cancer could be found. I was completely healed.

Wow.

And I don't want to diminish that, but the real healing was the healing of my soul. And I opened a Bible a short time after this. It took me a couple of weeks to get back on my feet. Opened a Bible a couple of weeks after this, and it fell to 23rd Psalm, and it looked like he restored my soul was highlighted on that Bible verse. And I thought, that's the healing, is my soul was restored.

Right, right.

That was a big deal.

Wow.

Wow, Rose. Thanks for going through that again. It's fascinating to hear it. Even, even a second time. So I have several questions that I have for you that I want to, want to ask you based on that. So the first thing is about the suicide of your husband. The death of a spouse is devastating anyway. Suicide is even more devastating. So tell me about the complications involved around his suicide and why that sent you into such a deep grief, probably even beyond normal.

Several things. One, I loved him. I really thought he— my first marriage had failed after 24 years, and I had put a lot of energy into praying for that marriage. And I thought finding this man— I married him when I was, I guess, 44, 45. I thought he was the answer to all those prayers. You know, prayer is not in vain. What is the Bible verse? My word shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that thing which I intend. I knew those prayers that I prayed for my first husband were not in vain. I didn't know how this ended so badly. And the last phone conversation I had with my husband was a terrible argument, just terrible. He was upset and angry. And he hung up, he hung up the phone and, and did this thing. And I felt very guilty, very, very, very, very, very guilty. And you know, one of the pieces to this, I haven't— I don't think I've ever shared this story publicly. It is in my book. Boston when this happened. I was traveling from my home in the South and I just landed in Boston. I get the call, I turn right around, get back on a plane, try to fly home. I'm stuck in Baltimore trying to get south, you know, to where I lived on the East Coast. And, uh, there was one seat left on a Southwest Airlines flight to get me where I needed to go. And I was— you can only imagine how frazzled I was. So I— they had one seat left, and they held the plane for me, which is remarkable. I don't— I didn't even know they even did that. But I ran and ran and ran. I got on that plane. I popped down in my seat. I sat down next to this man. And I was just staring straight ahead. I was a pretty hot mess. And he said, my name's Dan. And I said, my name is Rose. And he said, are you doing okay? And I said, not really. And I gave him the very short version. I said, I just got to call my husband and his wife. I'm trying to get back home. I said, it We had this terrible argument, terrible argument. And Dan stared straight ahead for a minute. And he said, I want you to remember that God is still watching over you. Because he said, you're seated next to somebody who understands. He said, my mother did the same thing to me. She started a terrible argument with me on the phone. And she hung up in anger. And then she put a gun to her head. And he said, that was the last conversation I ever had with my mother. And he said, but I want you to know, there'll be a day where you go a few minutes, and it doesn't hurt, and then a few hours. And then one day, you realize you've gone an entire day without sobbing. And he says, it's going to get better. And that man talked to me for that flight about how I would heal, and that I would heal, and it would get better. And I thought, you know, Southwest doesn't have seat assignments. But God does. And that, I realized that was the beginning of my healing. That was the big, that's where it started. So suicide is a death like no other, you get ostracized. I had been, he was an impressive man, very successful. And I was an author with some success. And we had these grand parties where people would come and had lots and lots and lots of fancy friends. And after his death, I ended up living out of my car briefly, because I couldn't find a place to get comfortable. And boy, does it give you humility. When even now, you know, it's very cold here in the Midwest right now. And you still see the homeless out looking for money and food or whatever. I saw a woman my age standing out on a street corner, and with a sign, and I burst into tears. Because, you know, yeah, you look at them, and you just want to say, I'll bet you've had trauma, haven't you? I bet something knocked your feet out from under you so thoroughly. And it wasn't just one thing, you know, and in my case, I lost my husband, I lost my status in the community, my place in society, I lost my home. I lost everything. I even lost my dog for a time because I couldn't care for a dog and Thankfully, my friend took care of the dog. And, and I was reunited with my dog. But I mean, I lost everything. I lost everything. And people were saying, oh, you need to eat something. Why? Why? Why do I need to eat something? I literally lost the ability to eat. And people would say— people are so foolish at times— they say, oh, you look great. You look great. You lost so much weight. No, I don't look great. I'm miserable. I feel awful. So yeah, I see homeless people now. And I think, what got you? I know what got me. And actually, a friend intervened. A friend found out I was living out of the car, and a friend intervened and said, we're not doing this, Rosemary. She said, you're not doing this. She said, you're coming home with me. And I said, you don't want me in your house. I scream at night. I have terrible nightmares, horrible things. She said, no, you're coming home with me. And that's that. She said, stay one night. And I did. And then one night turned into 4 months. And then another friend, well, that friend I mentioned earlier, came to live with me and took— and that's when I was reunited with my dog. He took care of me and the dog. And I kept saying, I'm beyond economical repair. You know, that's a car— that's a term we use in automotive industry. Yeah, I was beyond economical repair. There's nothing worth fixing here. So, but they saw something.

And you said something earlier that really caught me when you said, because not only did you lose, as you said, your husband and your, your home, your status, but you said you lost your intellect, which was a big part of who you are, and your faith. So for people, I would only want people to kind of think about that for a second, what it would be like to not only lose your material possessions, but these things that we think is who we are.

Right. And I had always been the good Christian girl. And I mean, I know my Bible pretty well.

Yeah.

And I lost it all. And that's the thing, I, I would have this vision of me floating in the icy Atlantic in the middle of the night. Desperate to find a piece, a piece of driftwood. I mean, that vision came to me so many times, and I couldn't even find a piece of driftwood. I'm just out there treading water, freezing to death. And I guess that's the analogy, is that I couldn't even cling to my faith. And they were just words now. You know, the Bible had been so rich with meaning before, and now they were just words. And that whole thing, God doesn't give us more than we can handle. Oh my gosh, the trite— if you ever find somebody in trauma, and I'm sure you know this, Brian, but you find somebody in trauma, knock off the clichés, knock them off. God doesn't give us more than we can handle.

Wrong.

What I believe now is that if, if we are able, if we are spiritually able, God will help us through that. But yes, God does give us more than we can handle, so we can learn how to lean on something outside ourselves. But sometimes the weight is too much, and sometimes we collapse under the burden. Yeah, but the clichés, oh my gosh.

Yeah. So that was so well said. You know, it's just something also that caught my attention when you said you were, you were to the point where like, I'm just going to hang on for 24 more hours, which I thought sounded like a good idea. But you said that's not a great idea for suicide prevention. So explain that to me.

Well, in my case, I think I was using willpower to stay alive. And I guess it did, you know, maybe that's not fair to say, but I was miserable. I was absolutely miserable. When you think, okay, it's 10:30 today, 10:30 tomorrow, this will be over. It's, it's— I read a book about suicide that was— I read a couple books, but one of the things it said is we are biologically hardwired to survive. But when we start thinking about suicide, we just chip and chip and chip away that natural biological hardwiring. So when we let this circle go, this loop get ever more entrenched. We're pushing the biological hardwiring off the page. And we're saying, oh, it's going to feel good to be dead. That's a devilish temptation. It is not good. One of the things my daughter's— my brilliant daughter said to me right after his death, I mean, I did, I guess I had a psychotic break. I just, I was a mess. And I would run through the house and I'd say, I have to die. I was spiritually responsible for this man and I have failed. I have to find him. I have to go be with him. I have to die. Out of my way. Let me do this. And my daughter, my sweet daughter, gosh, I think she was 29 at the time. She grabbed me, literally grabbed me, was just pacing through the house like a crazy animal. And she grabbed me, gave me a shake. She said, Mom, if you kill yourself, you're not going to be with him. You're not going to the same place he is, because you're not in the same place he was. She said, but you're just going to be another lost soul in a dark place. And then we can't help you.

And that—

I'm sorry, I don't mean to get emotional, but when your kids talk to you, um, it got to me so bad. And I was like, she's right, she's right. And I had to stay here so people could help me. So the 24-hour thing, I think it's dangerous because it chips away at that natural biological urge to survive until it becomes our default.

Yeah, and I think it's really important for us to try to understand suicide as much as we can because we have so many misconceptions about it— that the person was weak, that they gave up. You know, there's guilt around it when someone, you know, we should have known, we should have been able to prevent it. You know, all these things that we put on suicide. And as you said, I think sometimes, you know, God— if you want to use God— gave— gives us more life, gives us more than we can handle. And sometimes we just, we just break.

We do break. And I, something, I don't know if somebody told me this early on, but, um, you know, if somebody has a heart attack, as what do they call it, a widowmaker, when it's the left anterior descending artery that goes— I do have a good memory. But when somebody has a heart attack that takes them out, we don't say, oh man, they were weak, you know, they should not have been eating cream cheese with their breakfast those last 4 mornings, or what? We don't blame them. What is the difference between your heart failing you and your mind failing you? What is the difference between somebody who got married at the age of 21 and stayed happily married until they were 92 years old when they both passed within a week of each other? You know, I'll take that life. I'll take that life. I mean, when I was 14, my dad walked out, abandoned us, hard times. You know, I just— it's so unfair to look at somebody else's life and say, well, I would never do that. That. And even to look at homeless people and say, get a job. You know, I, it just makes me so angry that some people are blessed with easier lives than others. Suffering is not doled out in equal measure. It simply is not. And it's just so unjust when people say these harsh things about, oh, they're weak, they killed themselves. You don't know what was going on in their life. You don't know how long they fought to stay alive. You don't know how long their family fought to keep them alive. You don't know how many drugs they tried. You don't know how many doctors and psychiatrists they reached out to. You don't know how many friends they reached out to, and the friend said, look, I'm really busy right now, you call me every other day, can this stop now, please? It's just, it's just so unjust to not look at somebody's— well, like the old Native American saying, walk a mile in their moccasins. It's so true, you know. When, when I would see— when my husband, it was a closed casket visitation, but they had the casket up front, and then we're at the chapel, and people are coming forward to, you know, say I'm sorry for your loss and all that. You see those couples I know, Brian D Smith, you can relate to this. You see those couples approaching the casket, and they squeeze each other a little bit harder, a little bit tighter. And you know, they're thinking, thank God this has never happened to me. Thank God I've never been— I just saw a post on social media where somebody said, somebody said, it's been 2 years since my granddaughter died. And somebody posted, oh, I couldn't survive that. I'm like, how dare you? How dare you say such a thing? And the amount of callous people out there, their numbers are huge. And when I said all my fancy society friends scattered, you know who came into my life was the— how can I say this? The people, the average folks, the working class, the people who didn't have what we would call traditional resources. They came in and they pretty much put a circle of love around me, like my friend who took me into her home and said, you're not sleeping in that car.

She did.

She kept me in her home for 4 months. At the end of the day, she had a hard job. And at the end of the day, she'd come into my room and she'd stand at the foot of that bed in her own home, by the way. And she said, you were often crying in your sleep, moaning, making terrible noises. And she said she would stand at the foot of my bed. And she would pray that the peace of God would come over me. And she said you would always settle into a more peaceful sleep, your breathing would become more rhythmic, and you would calm down. I mean, that's what we're supposed to do. We're not supposed to say, get a grip, get over this. And the number one reason I wrote this book, I don't like writing. Writing this book has been hard, hard, hard, hard, hard, because this is not a book about fancy old houses, right? This is a book about my heart, my life, my experience. This is a book where I tell about sleeping in the car. That's pretty humbling, frankly, and becoming addicted to different things that I shouldn't have been addicted to. But the reason I wrote this book, I consider it my public thank you to all the people who swooped in to save me, to save me when I looked completely beyond salvage. So that's the number one reason I wrote this book, and to share the story that when somebody goes through this, what not to say, what not to do, and what do you do. But how many people can really swoop in and take somebody into their home for 4 months and feed them and nurture them and care for them and pray for them? She saved me.

And while we're talking about things that people say that aren't helpful, and you mentioned one there, you know, I could not do this. And I'm leading a group right now. We're going through a 30-day thing. And one of the subjects we talked about just yesterday was when people say to you, you're so strong, you're so strong, and I could never do this. So I already got it. I think I got the whole gist of what you wanted to say just from that, but put some words to it.

Oh my gosh. I'm finally getting to a point when people say, "Oh, you're so strong. You've been through so much. I'd just lay down and die if anything happened to my Bob." One, they're saying I didn't love as deeply. That's the first thing they're saying. They love their beloved more than I loved mine. Secondly, this whole thing about strong, I used to just get so angry at people and I'd say, "How dare you? This is not strength." What are my options? And then the other thing I would tell them, I would say, I'm not strong. You picked the wrong chick. I am not strong. Not, not, not, not, not. I am resilient, perhaps. I can take a punch to the nose and go down and end up somehow to pop back up. I'm not even so sure about that. What I am is I got dished a big pile of hard life. And I decided I better find my way through it. And, you know, it's, I don't know, that's the thing. That's what we were talking about before. It was wandering off into the hypothetical. The hypothetical is very dangerous. I don't know why some people have harder lives than others. I have a very dear friend who's buried two children, her only two children, one to suicide and one, one to something almost as awful, another violent ending. So what do you say to her? Do you say this is hypothetical? Do you say, oh, you're so strong? I know so many trauma survivors who become hermits, veritable hermits, they isolate from society, society. They go to work, they do their thing, they come home. They don't want to be around people, because people are not thoughtful. And you know, this woman who swooped in to save me and the other people came in to save me, not all of them had been through trauma, but all of them had a mighty big heart. And they knew what to say and they knew what not to say. They knew how to be love. You know, not even to love me, but just to be a shining beacon of love in this world. You know, Anne Lamott has in her book Bird by Bird, she has a great quote, we are here on earth to learn how to endure the beams of love. And I cherish that quote. Because my life, I thought I was, I was a volunteer. I'd been a volunteer chaplain for a time in a prison. I mean, I'd done a lot of things in my life that I thought were good things. I took care of an elderly aunt who had Alzheimer's. I thought I'd done a lot of good things. But you know, it's, it's awfully hard to be the one that needs care. It's a lot easier to be the one giving care. Than the one who's such a twisted, mangled mess, they don't know which way is up.

Yeah, that's a great point. Another thing I want to, I want to go over, because you mentioned this before we started recording, when people say things that aren't helpful, like, there's an alternate universe where your husband is alive and you're living happily ever after with them. What do you think about some things like that?

I think it's cruel, actually. Because it means if I had made different choices, this could have had a different outcome. If I had paid more attention to how sad he was in the days before this happened, you know, the coulda woulda shoulda swamped me. And the coulda woulda shouldas, when it comes to any death that's unexpected and tragic, can take you down, can take you down hard and fast. My brilliant mind, that turns against you, that becomes your worst enemy. I am the queen of rumination. I know how to go over something so many times, I wear it out. And that is dangerous. And one of the things this heavenly trip did for me is move me off the ruminations and ask new questions. Like the question I asked again and again is, why did he do this? Why did he do this? I thought he loved me. Why did he do this? I thought he loved me. And the angels told me those— that's the wrong question to ask. The right question is, you loved. And that was a good thing. And loving protects us. Loving is a blessing. Loving does good for our soul. And this was his journey. This was his salvation to work out. It was not my salvation to work out. I did my best. And yeah, did I do things wrong? I have no doubt I did things wrong. Have I had 6 years to reflect on every one of them? Well, sometime anyway. So that's the dangers of all the alternate universe. And when people get all these wonky ideas about, you know, he might still be alive in another world, to me, that is the height of hubris and cruelty. Because I want to be in that place. I want to be where he's alive, and I'm not, right? And I don't know how to get there. And I think, I think it's just crap. I think it's crap people say to feel better about themselves. So much of what people say is the stuff they say so they feel better. It's not to make you feel better, so they feel better. You and I had talked some time ago. I hope this is okay to say, but you had told me, and this has, this really resonated with me, you said that people had said to you stuff about your, your sweet daughter, that if you had taken a different path in medical care, maybe there would have been a different outcome. And they're saying that to make themselves feel better. They're not saying that for you. And people should shut their mouths and they should stop and think, is this for me or is this for them?

Yes, that's a brilliant— that's a profound point because people, they just— they want us to feel better so they don't feel bad, so they don't feel uncomfortable. And they say things that— and you and I talked with alternate universe theory before and you asked me what I thought about it. I say, does it matter? When it comes to any of these, these things? Does it matter? I'm not there. That's not my conscious experience. My experience is here. So if there is an alternate Brian somewhere else living with Shana, frankly, I don't care. Because from my perspective, it doesn't, it doesn't exist. And I also want to say that I think if is the most dangerous word in the English language. I don't, I don't like the word if, if I had done this, if I had done that. It doesn't exist. The only reality that exists is what we did do. And what— and that— and I'm like you, that rumination and literally torturing ourselves. And I, I talked to a lot of people that are torturing themselves saying, if I did— you couldn't have done that. You did what you did. It's done. We need to move on to the next thing. What do I do now is the question. I, I— this is what we need to ask. Um, so I'm glad we went over that because I think it's really, really important. And I know people are trying to be helpful. But sometimes, and I like what you said, think about whether I'm saying this to help you or to help me, you know, and really, really focus on that.

And by the way, your answer is much better than mine. You're right. That's a much better answer about the alternate universe. It really is. Because that's the thing. I'm here. You're right. I'm not experiencing my husband's presence anymore.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this stuff. I'm an engineer. So I'm like, how does this all work? I'm kind of— so we have similar minds when it comes to stuff like that. Another question I want to ask you. When you were having your experience, and you said you looked over your left shoulder, you saw this, or you felt or experienced this being that said, you are the likeness and I am the original. Was that an angel? Was that God? Was that Jesus? What is your impression?

My impression is it was God or the Holy Spirit. And people will say, I have been asked this, how can there be an original for all of us? That doesn't make sense. And my sense of it is that it's like a prism, you know, P-R-I-S-M, and that the light, when light, the original, moves through the prism, how many refractions and reflections can that recreate? Endless. That's my sense of it. It was God or the Holy Ghost, or, you know, the one, the one God, and that we are just, I don't know, we're beams of light emanating from this one great source. And there is one original, there's not, there's not 7 billion originals, there's one. And we're just, I don't know, that's how it came to me was to think of it as light being reflected from the original.

Yeah, and I think that reminds me of a guy named Bernardo Kastrup, who I've had on the podcast. I love his mind. And he says, at some point, we can only speak in metaphor or analogies, because our human mind can't understand it. So when people say things like, well, how can there be one— we can use an analogy like light through a prism, or like drops in the ocean, which is an analogy used earlier. They're, they're all analogies, none of them are perfect. But I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I hear people say, because sometimes people go so far as to say, well, I am God, you know. And what's your reaction to a statement like that?

I, I don't believe that we are God. I think life might be easier if we were. I don't know. I think, I think we're the image and likeness. I think there is one God. And yeah, that's interesting. I had used that analogy of the ocean. The fact is, if you take a billionth of a drop of water, such a thing is even quantifiable, or just say a drop of water from the ocean, it's going to possess the attributes of the ocean. You know, I mean, generally, again, that's where analogy breaks down. You get something near the shore is going to be different than something from the deep ocean. But generally speaking, it's going to have the same attributes and qualities and components. And that's what I feel like we are. You know, we have We have godlike qualities because we reflect or we manifest the original. So I don't think we're God. And this whole thing about the law of attraction. I was very, very devoted to mission statements, written goals, visualizing my future. I was the queen of written goals, absolutely the queen. And this thing came out of the blue. Nowhere in any affirmation, any goal, any mission statement that I have husband kills himself, and I become a mess.

Right, right.

So Law of Attraction, again, is something people say to explain their own good life. You know, look at my success. I visualized this, I manifested this, this happened because of my good thoughts. And I think that goes back to what you're saying about us being gods, or a god or whatever. I don't buy that. I think we're made of God stuff. But I don't think we are gods. I think that's a dangerous path. Because when we go into the Law of Attraction, which You know, you hear all these law of attraction success stories. What about the people, you know, there's a theory put forth. I know we're running short on time, but there's no—

we're good.

Okay, there's this wonderful theory that the housing crisis of 2008, you know, when people had the no-doc, low-doc loans and they were getting into houses they couldn't afford and the ARMs and real estate always goes up and all that stuff, that it was parallel to the pinnacle of this prosperity gospel and law of attraction stuff. And people say, well, you know, next year, I'm going to be wealthy. And I have to take a demonstration of faith, a show of my faith and buy this house beyond my reach. I think the law of attraction stuff, I think it works great if you have a sweet life and you can explain it. I think it is frankly the epiphany of being self-righteous to say, look at my life, I did this, I did this. And I had a friend who actually is a filmmaker who I met through this process, wonderful man who also had a very hard life. And he said that, he said, apparently, and I do believe in a preexistence. I mean, if life is eternal, we were somewhere before. And he said he believes that we, we say, I want the life with the most possible spiritual growth. And that's us.

Yeah.

Whereas you get, you know, you meet your spouse in grade school, you stay married the rest of your life, and everything's buttoned up and beautiful. That's a That's a different path.

Yeah. And I'm glad you mentioned the prosperity gospel. You either read my mind or we think alike, because every time someone mentions the law of attraction, that's what I think. Because I grew up as a Christian and know the Bible really well and all that stuff too. And I heard about this prosperity gospel, same thing, different packaging. And it assumes a couple of things. One is that we have control over the physical world through our minds, which I don't believe we do. Not, not directly anyway. And the other thing, it assumes that living a prosperous life— and this is what people in Jesus' time thought— was if you were rich, that meant you were righteous because God favors the wealthy. And it's, it's the same thinking that Jesus spoke against like 1,000 times. It's like, that's not what it's about. So it's about spiritual growth. So I do believe somewhat in the law of attraction, but I think it's our higher self that chooses what's best for us. So while we as humans would say, I want a big house, and I'm gonna live a long, happy, happy life, and never be sick, our soul chooses, no, you're gonna— your husband's gonna take his life by suicide, and you're gonna go through this path, and you are going to grow tremendously from it. And you, I think, are the prosperous one in that scenario.

I agree. I saw a movie about— oh, gosh, I think it was called Astral City or something like that. Have you heard of that movie?

Nosolarium.

There's a line in it that I just love where the lead character ends up in hell because he's lived a very self-centered life of debauchery and all that. And one of the things when he ends up in heaven, or the next life, one of the things the angels say to him is, but you had a very privileged childhood. And he said, privileged? We were poor. And the angels say, your parents prayed for you every day. And that really gets me. I think that's a privileged childhood. I think that's privilege. I think spiritual growth is what gives us privilege, real privilege, enduring privilege. And not just the stuff that's, you know, Jesus said, lay not up for yourself treasures on earth where moth rosts and rust doth corrupt. But I think the spiritual, I think that's real privilege is to have people praying for you.

That's exactly that verse came to mind same time he came to yours. That is, that's what, that's what true prosperity is, because everything here passes. Everything here fades away, and we focus so much on it. I do want to ask you a couple more kind of mundane questions, you know, because we've gotten pretty deep here. People are gonna ask, like, how do you know, Rose, that you really died?

Yeah, I love that one. I get that a lot. I realized that all I can do is tell my story, that I cannot convince my people— convince people of my truth, as they say, which I think is a great saying. Secondly, I, you know, I'll give you this one. And the other question I get asked is, how do we know you're not doing it for the money? I had two different major hospital chains that screwed up real bad, and four medical personnel that made some real big mistakes. And if I was in this for the money, I would have sued them. And I don't believe that's right. I think suing somebody is declaring war on them. It declares war on a single human being. So I'm If I was in this for the money, I think I would have chosen that path. And I was very reluctant to write a book. Actually, I said in the early days, absolutely not. Right. But how do I know I died? One, this is a good point. The next morning when I was at the hospital, the trauma center, and the real doctor comes in, you know, the one that doesn't have play school on a stethoscope, you know, the real doctor comes in, that's my age, and he sits down and says, Rosemary, you've had a heart attack. And I said, no, not me. I bike, I eat healthy, lots of veggies. He says, no, no, no, you lost so much blood last night, your heart went into V-fib, and then it stopped. So that's one way I know, because I have a medical record. And secondly, I have no doubt when I popped out of that body and I wandered off. And the other thing is the angels told me if I agreed to come back, I'd be healed. And I was. I mean, stage 2 cancer, one of the things the initial exam determined was the disease process had advanced to a point where the flesh was distorted. So it was visible upon physical exam, and it also showed up on his test. So, you know, how do you explain that one? You go from having stage 2 cancer to not one cell, right?

Exactly. Another thing is, I, again, I'm a— I have a scientific mind. I love what we call veridical NDEs, you know, so you can, you can explain something that happened while you're out of the body, or there's a record of your heart stopping or something like that. Those are really cool. But I've also learned, I don't ask those questions so much for myself anymore. And I was listening to someone relate their near-death experience last night.. And it was just, they were in a situation where they, they were in the hospital, and they had a seizure. And they, and they passed, they saw a bright light, they felt peace and love. But they didn't have all the elements of an NDE, right? So they didn't have the tunnel and the angels, and they didn't see other people and stuff like that. And there's no record that they passed away. So people might dismiss, well, what, how do we know you really had an NDE? Thing is, they came back so different. They came back changed in terms of they were going through heavy grief and depression, that was over. They became a medium. So they came back with the ability to speak to people on the other side. And as you said, and I love when you said it, you know, all this physical healing is great, but the real healing was the spiritual healing. And that's the real important thing about the NDE. And that's the thing that I think sometimes we, we forget, we get so tied to materials like, yeah, Rose, it's documented, and we've got the medical records. And I think that's really cool. I'm glad we have that for people. But seeing how your, how your life has changed and how your perspective has changed, that's the really cool thing.

Thank you for saying that. I actually had a neuroscientist that saw one of my YouTube videos and, uh, traveled some distance to meet me. She was a professor at a college also in the Midwest, and she said, you know, the most remarkable part of your story to me is not the healing of the disease or the restoration of peace and all, all the other stuff. She said the most remarkable part is after this you sold everything you owned. You moved, you sold your car, you sold your house, you moved to a new place, you started your life, and you're a different person. She said human beings don't do that. We, we human beings traditionally have incremental changes. We take a step in this direction, maybe 4 steps forward and a step back. She said you don't sell off everything you own and hop in a little used car and drive 1,000 miles to start a new life.

Yeah.

And something you had said, Brian D Smith, and this, this made such an impression on me. Because the other thing I get is, oh, you went to hell, now you're a demon. You know, you're— you're— I get— I still get emails about that, that, you know, you're— you've gone to the dark side and all that other stuff. And something you had said— that's right, that's it. That's exactly it. You had said last time we talked, and this was such a blessing for me, you had said, wait a second, you're— you're back promoting— you're back promoting a message of peace, light, and love and joy. You said that's, you know, and we talked about the fruits of the Spirit. That is a fruit. That is an evidence that something shifted. And you said if you were an angel of darkness, you know, you wouldn't be saying, I couldn't sue anybody. I, in fact, one of the things I did when I got home, I took up all the mole traps in my yard from the hospital, because I was like, they could kill somebody. Somebody. I meant a mole.

Right, right.

So yes, that had been so helpful when you mentioned that last time we talked is What are the fruits? What are we bearing witness to? What are we saying? What's the message?

Right. And if people really want to get biblical, that's, that's from the Bible, you will know a tree by its fruits. So and test the spirits and judge the spirits by what they're, what they're doing and what they're saying. And I get a lot of that too. And then my NDE videos I put on YouTube, I get the people that come in and say, she's being deceived. This is a message of deception. I think it aligns perfectly with the Bible. And I love when people like yourself who are so well-versed in the Bible can, can relate these things. We are kind of running short on time. I want to ask you like 2 more questions. This is a question people are going to want to know, like, what do the angels look like?

That probably is a number 1 question I get. In heaven, I can't say that I saw them. I experienced them. I heard them. I felt their presence. Oh my gosh, their presence was more palpable to me than if somebody was standing right beside me now. It was just an infusion. It was like two spirits melding. I mean, it was— anyway, I digress, but it's very powerful. But when they were at my hospital bed, they had a human-esque form. They had like a head and shoulders and torso and arms and legs, but they were like draped in a gown. I know that sounds so traditional, but that's what I saw. And maybe again, it's the filters of my own perception, who knows. But they were sparkly. They were just light. They were light and love and love personified. And when they sang, it's like their sparkles got more excited, their sparkles came more alive. And sparkles might be a crummy word to use, but it was just when they sang, their music came together and it just all glorified God. It was all to the glory of God. Everything is to the glory of God. When I think about now, I put my hand down to the side and ask, you know, is this divine will for my life? I think, what were you thinking, Rosemary? You were this close. But when you're in that place, all you want to do is honor and glorify God and the angels at my bedside. I'd say that's what they were doing. And the fact that they said, you're not supposed to remember this, you— this is for your healing and your peace and your joy. And we know how hard it is to come back. This is our thank you to you. It's very touching. You know, it's very dramatic. So they looked human-esque, but draped in light. They were wearing gowns of light, just light and sparkles, beautiful colorful sparkles. I know that sounds like a wishy-washy answer, but no, that's the answer. Um, so, um, if I was going to make this up, I'd make up something much better, right?

Right, exactly. And you're a writer, so I know you could. So I do, um, I just want to interject this here. I mean, when I— when you said that, you know, you got this vision of this nurse having a bad day because you chose to die, and you came back because of that, That is just— it just shows what a pure spirit you are. I mean, most people say, you know, I could see if it's like, oh, my daughter is going to suffer, or my son is going to suffer. But it's like this random nurse you've known for like 15 minutes, you came back for her. I think that's just— it's beautiful. It's just— it's really just, uh, impressive. And the last thing I want to end on, um, everybody wants to know what it's like to die. You know, because we all fear death, we fear the unknown. And you did talk a little bit about how, you know, it's like moving from one room to another, which is what I've heard. But what you said that really caught my attention was you likened it to waking from a dream.

Yes.

So explain how, how that existence is, that reality is compared to this, this reality.

Within seconds of passing, Honestly, I guess the best analogy I could give was I had been caught in a nightmare, a terrible nightmare, you know, my husband's death, the ensuing losses, the grief. And it really was like my Father, my Heavenly Father, had shaken me awake, and just shake, you know, how dreams sometimes lingers for a minute, and was just shaking me awake very gently and with great love and authority, and saying, it's over. That was, that was just a bad dream. But it's over now. And you're with us now. And it's, it'll be washed away very fast. And it was, it was just like that, being shaken awake from a nightmare. And I think why people are afraid to die, I know a lot of people are really in love with Earth life, you know, and they think this is great and all that. And I'm, I've never been one of those people. But it's, it was like, I guess that's the thing, you know, like when you go through a really hard time, Like, for me, it's what an airplane is— the wait at the airport, and you're waiting for 3 hours, and you think, oh, this is going to take forever. Are they just going to cancel it? Am I ever going to be on that plane? But once you're on the plane, and once you're back home, you're like, well, that was really not that big a deal. That really wasn't that big a problem, it turns out. That's what it was like. It was like 59 years was just like, oh, it really wasn't that big a deal. That wasn't— that, that wasn't as huge a problem as I thought it was. And, and when you're gone into the next place, you're like, well, that really was over in the blink of an eye. You know, and yet, I was really grateful it was over. And coming back is hard. Dying is not hard. Coming back is hard. Because then the denseness and the heaviness of this earth tries to sink back into your bones. And I was telling you privately that the Christmas was very hard for me. And I was surprised, because I'm over that. I'm not over this, you know, there'll always be loss and sadness. But I was like, What is happening to me? Why am I struggling so? And it just— I just hit a low spot. And I thought, I've been to heaven. I know what this is. I know what that is. I know how it works. But it's still hitting so hard. So very hard. So this earth is dense and hard at times. And I don't know, it just— when you're in the next place, you realize that this is all so transitory, so almost ethereal. You know, we think this earth is the physical hard stuff. And then we go to heaven, that's when we float around on a cloud. No, no, no, no, this is the, this is the ethereal stuff. And when we wake up, we're like, oh, this is reality. This is substance. This is love. This is light. And one of the things I've been working with, with this depression, I mean, I've been feeling pretty sad over the holidays, was that God is the source. God is the source of love and light and joy. And I keep looking for people to be the source. They're not. God is the source. And when we— I really believe when we get our relationship with God more clear, that then it manifests humanly. And that's honestly, that's what I've been struggling with over the holidays is who I want to be around people. I feel so lonely.

Yeah, I'm so grateful. Thank you for sharing that, that, that you still go through depression. I do too. You know, there's still tough times. There's still sometimes people look at me and say, Brian, you're so strong. You're doing such great with this. It's like, no, sometimes this life sucks.. And I found the meme the other day, and I don't have it in front of me. I can't quote it exactly, but I loved it. And I know you'll relate to it because it's from the Bible. And it's like, you know, Jesus said he knew Lazarus was dead before he got there. He knew that Lazarus would be alive again in a few moments. He was the Lord of life. He knew more about life and death than anybody, you know, ever has in existence. Yet he cried, you know, and Jesus cried. And I love I read the Bible, I see that verse, you know, why did Jesus cry? If he knew that Lazarus was already alive, if he knew he could bring him back, if he knew that nobody really dies. But when we're in this, when we're in this dream, as you put it, or this nightmare, we get caught up in it. And that's, that's part of the game, we're supposed to get caught up in it. And the pain is very real. So it doesn't mean we dismiss the pain, it doesn't mean that it doesn't matter while we're here.. But we can rise at that higher perspective and say, it's all going to be over really soon. And I'm going to wake up and go, it wasn't that big of a deal. That's not to dismiss— again, I have to make this very clear— not to dismiss what you've gone through, or what you're going through, or what I'm going through, or anybody else is going through. But it's temporary. And it's all going to be okay.

Even fleeting. That's, I guess, what impressed me when it was over was, wow, I got pretty worried. And the thing is, You think of heaven as just happy, happy, happy thoughts. But I remembered my husband's suicide. I remembered how depressed I'd been. I remembered all this stuff. I always thought when you died, all that stuff just went away in a whisp. It doesn't. I was like, oh, wow. Yeah, that's— but it's over. It's over. It was very fleeting. I was like, how did I get so bound up, so caught up, so upset about something that was so fleeting? It's all over. And it was like 59 years was like a blink of an eye. I know I said that before, but I don't know. And it was dying that saved my life. I'm pretty confident. Had I been stayed on the path I was on, I don't, I don't think I would have survived this.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that's why I wrote the book. I want other people to find some peace and joy and happiness.

Well, I haven't had a chance to read the book yet, because it's not out yet. But it will be by the time this, this comes out. I have read an excerpt from it. And it's just as great as you would expect it to be after listening to Rosemary's— or listening to Rose. So I would highly recommend it. So by the time this is up, it'll be out, it's going to be on Amazon. And the title is— give me the title again, please, Rose.

Remembering the Light: How Dying Saved My Life. And the name is Rosemary Thornton. And also I have a website, temporarydeath.com. I don't like the near-death experience. I don't like the near-death phrase because I wasn't near death. Yeah, I was temporarily dead. Well, yeah, the title's temporarydeath.com.

We can have a whole nother discussion on what it means to be dead, because the body dies, but we both know the spirit never does. So it's—

and even your giggle goes with you.

Yeah, yeah, that's cool. That's cool. That's good to know. Rose, thanks very much for being here. I really appreciate you coming back and doing this. Any final thoughts you want to give before we close out?

Yes, one. Brian D Smith, I realized the last time we did this, I have thought about your comments so many times. And I know you must be a great, a great helper to everybody, because so many things you said just touched me deeply and really resonated and remained with me. So the work you're doing is so valuable and so precious and so important.

No, thank you. Thank you so much, Rose. All right, well, you have a great rest of your day.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and we'll come back for future episodes. Brian's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/brian-d-smith. Patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to growth. For more about Brian and grief to growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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