She Lost Her Mother, Son, and Husband- Then Found Joy- Dr. Kimberly Harms EP 402

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you.

And I think one thing I learned too, between the two of us when our son died is you have to respect each other's grief. I didn't go into Eric's room for 3 years, I couldn't even breathe. We didn't change his room, we had to just respect each other's wishes and to adjust to each other and respect each other and not blame each other and move forward together so that our marriage was— and many times families fall apart, especially with the suicide. We really focused on, on helping each other get through the experience together, and that was, that was very important.

Close your eyes and imagine what if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges. Challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried, but what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth. This is the podcast where we explore life's most challenging journeys to help you find meaning, healing, and purpose. I'm your host, Brian D Smith. And whether you're tuning in for the first time, or whether you're a longtime listener, I want to thank you for being here and say welcome. Today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Kimberly Harms, a remarkable woman whose life experiences make her uniquely insightful about both the pain of loss and the healing power of resilience. You know, here at Grief 4 Growth, we talk about how we can go from grief to growth, and we talk about the different griefs that we have. And Dr. Harms has been through many, and we'll talk about those today. Now, she's worn many hats throughout her career and her personal life as a clinical dentist, a public health service officer, a grief counselor, a death doula, and a dedicated mother and grandmother. She's also an international speaker, the bestselling author of Are You Ready? How to Build a Legacy to Die 4, and a soon-to-be-published workbook, Naomi and the Widows Club, which supports those rebuilding their lives after the loss of a spouse. Dr. Harms, as I mentioned earlier, has endured profound personal loss herself, including the passing of her husband and two close family members to suicide. Yet her journey has transformed her into a guide for others, how others that are navigating widowhood, legacy, and grief. And today we'll explore how Dr. Harmas finds joy in painful times, uncovers peace in uncertainty, and forges purpose even when life takes an unexpected turn. During our conversation, we'll dive into critical questions like how can you build a life and legacy worth living for? What does it take to feel peace in a world that often feels chaotic? And maybe more importantly, how can you find your own safe, strong place after experiencing deep personal loss? So be sure to stick around for this conversation. It promises to be a fascinating one.. And after it's over, be sure to join us at grieftogrowth.com/community to continue the conversation there. And with that, I want to welcome Dr. Kim Harms.

Thank you so much, Brian. It's just wonderful to be here.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation today. As I said, the title of the podcast is Grief to Growth. And it sounds like you've experienced your share of grief. And you've obviously gone— you're also making transformation and going through some positive things. As we're talking, we were talking just before we start recording, you were talking about the legacy of your grandchildren. And you just got a smile on your face and talk about how you're going to continue to build that legacy even after all the things you've gone through. Um, and I know you experienced some, some very personal, deep losses of people around you, and I'd just like to ask you to start with wherever you'd like and, and explain to us what happened.

Well, when I was born with, um, I'm missing some fingers due to thalidomide. My mother took thalidomide when, uh, when she was pregnant with me, and We didn't find out about that for about 6 years, and by that time my parents had been divorced. And my father called my mother and said, you know, it's those drugs, those drugs that you took in Cincinnati, they were being tested, that caused Kim to be missing her fingers. And at that moment she had a complete breakdown. She had been having some issues before too, but she had a complete breakdown and, uh, went into a mental institution where she stayed for the rest of her life. Until I was 17 when she took her own life. Now, my mother obviously was fractured in many ways, but she was the best mother ever. She taught me that she loved me unconditionally. She gave me my faith, and, and I had at least 6 years with her that affected the rest of my life in a very positive way. So her loss was very dramatic for me. But I just want to make it clear, the people that are mentally ill can be great parents. And she was absolutely the best thing that ever happened to me. And my ability, I think, to be resilient comes from her. But I lost her when I was 17, which was just a terrible experience. I went on later, went to dental school, met this cute guy, Jim Harms, got married. We had a— went to dental school together. We had— in the Public Health Service together, bought a practice, had the kind of a little small town in in Farmington, Minnesota, and we had 3 beautiful children, and we were kind of living a good life. And I was thinking, you know, maybe all the things I suffered as a child, you know, my life's going to be good now, right? Well, you know, as soon as— my Norwegian mother-in-law would say, don't think that way. But as soon as I did, things were going well. And one year in 2007, my brother died of a sudden heart attack. My husband Jim was diagnosed with liver cancer 1 month later, and, but luckily he had a, it was not a good prognosis, but then he miraculously got a liver transplant 6 months after that. We were on top of the world again. And then 6 months later on January 31st, 2009, my, our son, our wonderful son Eric, who was a freshman at Columbia University, he'd been recruited by Columbia. You know, he was just this brilliant kid. And he went to Columbia, his dream school, because he could study engineering and play in the jazz band in New York City. I mean, like, what? He was a jazz pianist. He just loved it there. He was even elected to student government. Like, who gets elected to student government at Columbia? I mean, what the heck? The kid was on top of the world. He came home from his first semester and he was soaring. He was just soaring. He was so happy. But just 2 weeks into his second semester, his girlfriend broke up with him, which is a normal experience in life.

Right?

And 45 minutes later, he was gone. He took his life in 45 minutes. And you know, those jazz pianists are very impulsive. That's what makes them great jazz pianists. But he had an undeveloped brain, it wasn't fully developed and was very impulsive. And bam, that was a fatal cocktail at that moment. That loss out of the blue completely shattered us to pieces. Anyone that's lost a child knows that it's just, it's indescribable where you go with that. But I had a gift that, that happened shortly after Eric died. Um, I was getting back to work and I was in that zombie phase. Anyone that's been at the bottom of the grief pit, you know, just kind of sucking up a little, you know, trying to get the mud out of your lungs, you know, just trying to survive. I was in that zombie phase, kind of dead on the inside and kind of walking around trying to work and be out in society, you know, again, which was hard. A loss And my husband was talking with this cousin, and very seriously, and I walked out outside, and the cousin came up to me with anger in his voice and pain in his voice, and he pointed his finger right at my face and said, don't you ever let your remaining children feel that they are not enough. Don't you do that to them. And I, I was taken aback because I realized that he had lost his brother at about the same age as Eric, and he felt that he lost his parents at the same time.

Oh, wow.

He felt that his parents couldn't attend to their living children because they were consumed with grief over their dead one. And I was headed in the same direction. I'm getting goosebumps now because I do every time I tell this story. I was headed there. I could see I was at the bottom of the grief pit. And I kind of felt, why get out? Because someone's gonna get thrown back in again, right? You know, you kind of get to that place when lots of things happen to you.

Sure.

And I realized at that moment, it was a defining moment for me. Because I realized that my grief doesn't just affect me, it affects everyone around me, including my living people that I love, my husband who had just been through a liver transplant, my two daughters who were struggling with this death, we were very close family. And I was resolved at that point to fight and kick and scream and like claw my way out of that pit because it takes work. You don't— if you don't fight it, you're going to just stay there, right? And that was a transforming thing for me. And eventually I worked my way out of the grief pit. It was hard. It was a lot of work. I fell down back in a couple of times, but I can now breathe fresh air and I can be there 100% for the people that are around me that I love, for the people that I— people I don't love, I can be there around them 100%. And so that was really a defining moment. My husband, of course, I— and I also got treated for depression. Very, very important because, you know, look, I had suicide on one side, suicide on the other. Who's in the middle? Me. So I went out, immediately got treated for depression. I, I do take some medication. I got off it for after a while because I thought, oh, you know, I don't need this. And my children and my doctor said, get back on it right now. And I realized that this is something for me that I need treatment the rest of my life. And I've accepted it, just like I have accepted that I take my blood pressure medication every day. I take my medication for depression every day, and it works. I've had no side effects. It works. It was one of the best decisions I made. My husband, unfortunately, who I believe was also depressed after the loss of our child, did not seek care. I call him my stubborn Norwegian. He was a Norwegian farmer, you know, when he grew up. And They don't like to admit that, you know, they're strong. They don't like to admit that there's any weakness emotionally in them. And he struggled with that. And about a year after Eric died, Jim was in the hospital getting the quadruple bypass surgery and a valve replaced. Now, right before that, right before Eric died, before he had his transplant, his heart checked out great, because they don't give you a liver if your heart's bad, right? So he had a heart that was well. And in about a year after he died, his heart was just destroyed. And eventually, after a long battle with what I call a broken heart, he did pass away a few years back, 4 years ago. And so I then I went through becoming a widow, where again, I've had to recreate my identity, which is part of grief, as a daughter, as a mother, and now as a widow, where I'm now alone. I get up alone, you know, If I go to the grocery store, nobody knows where I'm going, you know. I mean, there's nobody there. It's a really tough transition as a widow.

Sure.

So what I learned to do is I, I learned at that point in time that I needed to just sit back and decide, okay, what's next? I'm between menopause and death, and I'm by myself. What am I going to do now, right? So I ended up— I had some wonderful friends. I was involved in a beautiful widows' grief group. And so I wrote a couple of books. I co-wrote two books on widowhood and, and, um, the Christian devotionals for widowhood. And then I thought, we need We need some— we need, we need a, a step-by-step plan to get through this part of life, to graduate from this part of life. So then I wrote my book, Are You Ready? How to Build a Legacy to Die For, which is designed to help prevent our children from go— from getting— from going through the deep— it's like a preventive grief thing. So they, they hopefully they won't go all the way down to the grief pit. I'm hoping for them to have a softer landing. And I think there are things we can do now to help our children have a softer landing when we go. And so that's my purpose now.

Wow.

And developing purpose and having a new identity and, you know, understanding this is where I'm at now. What do I do now? All the plans I had for my retirement are, you know, up in smoke. None of them are what I thought they were. But I've got different plans now.

Right, right, right. We talked about a little bit before we got started. You do have different plans now. And I don't know where to begin. I'm so sorry for, you know, for your loss. All your losses. And as I was, you know, preparing for this, I was thinking about, you know, sometimes we, we compare grief, even though, you know, we know in the grief space we're not supposed to do that. And I'll never forget, I was talking with a woman one time, and I made— I slipped and I said, you know, there's nothing worse than losing a child. And she said, oh no, no, let me correct you. I've lost— she had lost a son. I've lost a son, and I just lost my spouse. Losing my spouse was much worse. Because, and they're all, again, they're all different. You can't really, you can't quantify it, but you've experienced all the losses we can think of, right? Sibling, child, mother. What's that been like for you in terms of each time, I guess, you kind of reimagine who you are?

Yeah, yeah. You know, you fall into, you know, after, before that, that one encounter, you would fall into that grief pit, you know, and you'd kind of stand. I was like buying curtains, you know, you're like, okay, I'm comfortable here. Let's just stay here. And I'll be miserable the rest of my life. Because you can't imagine you'll ever smile again, you know, and everyone who's been through grief knows you could walk outside and you see people living a normal life and you just want to go, hey, my husband just died. How could you be happy? You know, so I had to get through that. What I did is a year after Eric died, I also lost my identity as a dentist, which was, and I was the primary breadwinner in my family because my husband was sick, right? One year after Eric died, I was developing some real problems in my neck. And as it turned out, I had nerve damage in, of all places, my drilling fingers, my good fingers. I mean, I have a bad hand and a good hand, the good hand that was a working hand. Now, of all places to have nerve damage, it was in those three fingers. And so it was like, what the heck? And I was calling my pastor and I was on the phone just crying. I was coming back from the Mayo Clinic like, oh my gosh, what do I do now? I can't work because they told me I was done. And he said, he said, well, Kim, it's not the worst thing that's happened to you. And I said, you know, you're right, you're right. It's hard to quantify. And I think that for my, in my case, the son, which was a sudden death, and someone who was on top of the world and now gone, who we didn't have a clue. And as a mother, when someone has a suicide, there is guilt and shame and like, what did I not do?

Right?

Part of my focus on building resilience in the next generation, because I felt if I could have built resilience for him for a normal, you know, a breakup with a girlfriend is something that's going to happen to all of us. It's a normal part of life. Nobody's at fault. You know, she could break up with him if she didn't love him. I mean, that's a normal part of life. But he couldn't seem to manage that. And so that's one of my— I took that as one of my goals for what I want to do now is help to build resilience. Generation. So that was, that was, that was to me, that was the hardest thing. However, my husband Jim, who had the first— had the liver transplant, right? And then he lived for about 10 more years. And every year in those 10 years, he had another medical emergency that was expected to result in his death. So 10 times I was ready. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be a widow. Oh my gosh, I'm going to be a widow. And then of course, when he died, I thought, well, maybe he'll come back. Actually, he did come back. That's another story. But he had— he stopped breathing for 20 minutes and came back the day before he died. But, but it was like, oh my gosh, he's really gone now. What do I do? But I had time for him to— I had to kind of anticipatory grief, or I was right with the grief ahead of time. So when he died, my identity was different. I think that what she might be referring to, right? You wake up, there's nobody there, you're alone. And it's a really deep aloneness. Because, you know, he's not just on a trip, I'm alone.

For good.

And so that's what made it harder. But I was able to anticipate his grief. And if you— I think if you add all the grief up, it'd be pretty equal. But it was different. It was a different grief. And, but yeah, it's, it's hard. You really can't compare. And I think one thing I learned too, between the two of us when our son died is you have to respect each other's grief, because my grief— I didn't go into Eric's room for 3 years. I couldn't even breathe You know, when I walked past his door every night, he was sitting in his room every night. We didn't change his room. It was there for 3 years. Jim sat there every night. I couldn't go by it. And we had to just respect each other's wishes and not interfere. I knew what— I knew how he felt. So I was very careful not to judge when he was in there, when he would play back tapes with Eric's voice on it, which would send me, you know, down into the pit again.

Right.

And we just had to adjust to each other and respect each other and not blame each other and move forward together. So that our marriage was— and our family grew stronger. And many times families fall apart. With a suicide, there's blame, there's shame, there's so many things that are involved. But we really, we really focused on, on helping each other get through the experience together. And that was, that was very important. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Wow.

So much, so many things I want to, I want to talk with you about, you know, suicide is a very, very important topic. And your, your mother's suicide and your son's suicide very different things. And we try to understand, you know, from our limited perspective, why does, why does someone take their life? What were they thinking? And as you were, you know, relating your story, I have a client, it was almost exact same thing. His son was, was doing great, you know, but he got in a fight with his girlfriend. I don't know if it was an official breakup. And then he just went out and took his life, like he jumped off a bridge, you know. And it's, and as a parent, you're like, what? You know, you made a permanent decision in a very, you know, in that kind of a moment. So how long did it take you to come to the understanding that you have now that this was an impulse? And, and how do you feel about it now?

It, it was very, very, very hard at first. And I'm a person of faith, and so my question— when my mother died, um, and she was a person of faith, there were no no one would give her a funeral. She was the most godly woman I met because she committed suicide. This was years ago. However, when Eric died, he went— we were Baptist, but he went to a Catholic school, and he, he wasn't at the Catholic school. He was at Columbia. He was away. He was in college. Yet when we held that funeral, the— his old high school, when— where he wasn't even a student anymore, sent buses and buses of boys. It was an all-boys Catholic military academy, so they had uniforms on. Buses of boys. It was— there were thousands of people at that church. And the Baptist honored Eric and talked about suicide as a disease. Every pastor was there. They were all crying because he was very involved in our church. The boys were there. And when I— one of the best gifts I had was when I was— we were taking Eric's casket, and we addressed the boys. We addressed suicide at the funeral because I had these boys that were all crying, you know, And when I, when I were taking his casket, you know, down the aisle of the church, though, all of the boys, hundreds of boys stood up in their military uniforms and saluted his casket. And again, I'm getting goosebumps because they were honoring his life. He made a difference in 19 years to so many people, and they were honoring his life. And so the hardest thing for me, as someone who believes in an afterlife and faith, is where's my son? Where's my son? Is he in heaven? Is he up there with you, God? And I, as a Christian, you I, we kind of believe Jesus gave his life for us. So I said, well, okay, God, now I'm his mother, I must have— I didn't teach him resilience. It's my fault, you know, because this is what you do when you're a mom. It's my fault. So I'll tell you what, give me whatever place he's supposed to have. So if he's going down to wherever you go, when you do this, I'll go there and give him my place. And I'll live for you the rest of my life. I mean, you know, you make these deals.

Sure.

But I didn't— I realized I was— I was set— when I call angels that just came around me, they weren't— they were people. There's no supernatural experience that I've had, darn it. But you know, there are people that came just when I needed them, just them. In fact, I don't know if you know Tony Dungy, who was a— oh yeah, Dungy's brother. Tony's brother Lyndon Dungy was a dentist down the street from us and a colleague, and we didn't know him as a colleague. Tony lost his son to suicide under similar circumstances at about the same age after a breakup with a girlfriend. And so Lyndon just felt called to start writing us these beautiful letters that were just— he's a person of faith as well, beautiful letters. And we were getting these letters that he sent in the mail. And one day I was at the office, and it's hard to work when you're in grief, right? Because you don't, you know, you're, you're especially— and everybody knew Eric, they loved Eric. People were expressing their, you know, their, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. And so every day I'd have 30 or 40 brand new people that I'd see, I'm so sorry, I'm so— which was wonderful that they did that, but it was very hard for me to, you know, kind of, I'm trying, trying to get back to work, you know. So I was having a meltdown, as anyone knows who's had a loss. I was having a complete utter meltdown in the hallway of my dental office, and I had two of my wonderful, uh, teammates, or two hygienists that were there, and one of them had also lost her son to suicide after a breakup with a girlfriend. So I had the, you know, best people around me that, that comforted me, but I was just absolutely overwhelmed with grief and crying and meltdown. And I was saying, where is he, Lord? Where is he? I went, where's my son? Where is he? Where is he? That's a huge thing for me, that his afterlife is good, right? And at that moment, my dental— my office manager came in, said, Dr. Dungey just brought this over, a letter that was over. And he quoted a Romans quote that basically said that not angels or demons or anything else in this life will separate you from the love of God, which to me was like a direct, you know, like, okay, Kimmy's with me, knock it off, get back to work, you know. And I asked Lyndon, why did Why did you suddenly deliver that? Because he just sent the other ones in the mail. He said he didn't know that. He said that morning he just felt that he had to write this letter and get it to me as soon as possible. And, you know, so those types of things, those angels, you know, I call them, and I had many angels around me that were people. My dental dentist that lost her daughter, her son, his as well, ministered to me, helped me. And so What that did for me is help me realize that I think my job now, especially now that I'm alone, I got the time, I got no husband to take care of. My job is to minister to other people that have been through this and to let them know that joy is possible. So as you go through those things and with my faith, I think that we have more of a purpose in life and that, you know, our goal is like to go up to heaven and get a big high five from God that, you know, you did it. And, and that, that gives me a lot of peace that I think I'm, I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Because what I'm doing and helping out— when you help other people, it comes back right at you. The joy that you give comes right back, even if they're— whether they're receptive or not. It's just that you're giving it, it comes back. It's crazy. It's like a boomerang.

Yeah.

And so that I think that's— that has been very helpful to me, my faith, the people around me, and then how my job is to help other people too.

Yeah, you, you mentioned that suicide is, is a disease, and, um, we can all, I think, maybe relate to that because we can see people that struggle with it, that plan it, that are just— it's just like you just— it just catches up with them, kind of like an addiction. But I was just wondering about, like, it's sometimes it's just an impulse. I think, like, in the case of your son, I mean, I don't think— and I don't mean to disagree with you, but I just want to get your perspective on that.

You know, you're right, because when— now we had another nephew who also— very bright nephew who was doing his doctorate dissertation in Japan. Mm-hmm. This did somehow— made some mistake and ended up jumping off a large building and taking his life in Japan. That was about 3 years before Eric died. And that was the only time we saw Eric suffer from what we thought might have been depression we got him.

Sure.

He was very, very active and very, you know, just outgoing. But I think it is impulse control. He was very much like Robin Williams. He was really funny. You know, he used to dig, you know, and again, you know, he's someone who also took his life. So I think that impulsive— the things that make you such a good jazz pianist or such a great— is that, that, that you just are impulsive, and you just do what it feels like doing. And I think that that's probably what caused it. And it, you know, it's hard for the first few years. It's hard to see his peers that are growing up and getting families. And so I absolutely, you know, I often think of, oh gosh, wouldn't it be great if he were here? But then I, but then I need to say, you know, I need to put him where, you know, I have him in my heart. I think of him every day, just as I do my husband, just as I do my mother. But I don't dwell. And so that's something I think that I, that just for me, is very helpful. I start to, I put that in my heart, and then I, I go find my grandchild or something, you know, to kind of bring me back. But, but I think that's a healthy spot for him, you know, and for my mother and for my husband are in my heart. And again, with my faith, I believe I'm going to see him again.

So yeah, you've mentioned your faith before. And you mentioned Catholicism, you mentioned being Baptist. Are you, are you Baptist? Are you Catholic? What is your faith?

I'm Christian, so I don't— I'm kind of a combination. In fact, I'm going down to— and I, I go to a Baptist church now. Um, I really just— I really believe that your, your relationship with God, as you see God, is a personal one, you and God. And then the churches are very helpful in keeping you on track, you know, reminding you what you need to do. Um, so I, I grew up Catholic, I married a Baptist, became Baptist. Um, we were Methodists and Presbyterians for a while because we found good churches. And when I go down to Kansas City, I'm looking at a Methodist church that I'm very interested in. So, so I'm kind of, I'm just kind of, I call myself a Christian. And I take the best of all those faiths, because I think each of them have a little snippet of something wonderful. And I take those things and put it together. And I'm not critical. I, you know, churches are made up by men and women, human beings. And so I kind of, I kind of just try to focus on the guy upstairs. And authority. And so I, I, I— it's kind of fun because I can go to any church and enjoy it.

You know, it's interesting, as we had that convers— or talk about that, um, I looked it up. This was many years ago. I think there were— there estimated was 30,000 Christian denominations, and nobody knows the real number is, but it's in the thousands. And, and there are, you know, minor differences in a lot of them. But one of the things some of them have in common is that suicide is like the ultimate sin, right? You know, that it's the one you can't repent of. Did you ever have anybody come at you with that?

When my mother died, she was Catholic and involved in Catholic Church. Um, nobody actually said that to me, right? But I was Catholic at the time, and so I kind of, you know, it was, it was kind of implied. I don't know if it was ever stated. I never saw it stated anywhere, but it was kind of implied. The interesting thing is with Eric, it was again, those angels, those angels, those angels. One of the priests that were at his Catholic school, I, we made a donation and we just, you know, happened to show up to drop off the donation. We're there for maybe 10 minutes. During that 10 minutes, this priest just kind of came out of the blue. He was, he was no longer working. He was dying himself. He had oxygen on. He just happened to be there, happened to be there, right? Happened to be there. And he came up to me and he gave me this big hug and he said it was one of the saddest moments of his life when he heard about Eric the Dancing Bear, because that's what they called him. He was a drum major and he used to dance around on the top of that drum thing. And, um, he said, but I know that I'm going to see him pretty soon because he knew he was dying, and I'm going to give him a big hug for you. And again, I still get goosebumps. These are very emotional times for me, because again, here's a Catholic priest telling me that he's going to see my son in heaven. And the Catholics, the Catholics will donate, will donate a Mass for people. So my, my son got Mass after Mass after Mass that people were donating for him. My, my mother in the same church, 35 years before, got no Mass. So I think that that change, I think we are changing and evolving. And so comforting. Because when I remember my mom, I remember standing in this, you know, mortuary. Uh, it was dripping with shame. It was a dark room. I was 17 years old. It was dripping with shame for my mother, who was the most wonderful woman in my entire life. It was so hard for me. And yet when, when Eric's, uh, death occurred, it was celebrated here. Columbia University had a memorial for him. And they planted a permanent memorial shadbush that still grows in front of the engineering center dedicated to him. So, you know, it was, it was— what's happening now is so good to help us recover. And all those little things, like with that, that, that verse that showed up, you know, when I was crying in the stairwell, to me, just tell me I know where he is. And that deal that I made with God, I'm going to be good because I get to go up there too, because I thought, well, I'm gonna, you know, If I'm going down there, but I would do that for my son, you know, because, right, right. So it's— I'm so glad that we're understanding this as a disease. And I was there myself. I mean, I had all my brother and sister and I all attempted to take our lives when we were younger. Fortunately, I didn't. I wasn't very good at it. But so I've been there. I've been in that place. And when you're in that place, it's just a place of pain. It's a place of emotional pain. The pain to stop. And you don't think— and you think you're a burden on everybody else. You think, oh, the world's without me. So it's, it's a— I understand the place, which I think helps me understand, uh, what they went through. And, um, you know, but it's, uh, for anyone that's contemplating it, please know that, that it's— that joy in life is possible. Don't, don't think that where you're at right now is going to be where you're going to stay. Had I been successful as a teenager you know, I wouldn't have these 6 amazing little grandchildren that I just absolutely adore. You just— there's more to life, and there's joy in life. It's possible. And I just want people to understand that.

Yeah, well, that's that resilience you talked about. And I always say that people need hope. And I think that when we get to that place, when we don't have hope, that's when we're ready to give up. And you talked about the pit of that grief, that the zombie phase, and any of us who have been through that, We can relate to that, where you just— no one can convince you that your life will ever be good again, that you will ever even smile again, let alone have a good day or look forward to, to anything. Um, and, and having gone through that, once, once we go through it and we come out of it once, or at least move kind of forward, we realize when the next one happens, okay, I've, I've kind of been in this place before. It's different. But it's similar. Yeah.

And I want my children— one of the things I'm doing with my book is I'm trying to kind of help some preventive grief. I'm helping my children understand when their Pop Pop died, it was so hard for all of us. And I saw my grandchildren suffering. And so I talked to them about their Pop Pop, and we talked to, oh, Pop Pop this, Pop Pop that. I get— when I give Christmas gifts, it's from Nana and Angel Pop Pop, you know. So we keep alive, right? Also tell them, you know, one day I'm going to be gone. And I know that this works. Because my little grandchild Heidi was at the table the other day, and she was looking up at me, and she goes, 'Nana, if what happens to Pop Pop happened to you,' and I said, 'Do you mean if I die?' She goes, 'Yeah, Nana, if you die.' She goes— I said, 'Go ahead, Heidi, if I die, what?' She goes, 'Well, Nana, if you die, can we still go to Disney World?' And I said, 'Yes, I want you to be happy and joyful when I die. I want you to think of me with joy, and I want you to thrive and flourish in your life, that would make Nana so happy. Because I think when people die, we feel like we don't have permission to be happy. We feel like we need to grieve more and that we can't be happy. But if they loved us, they would want us to be happy. They don't want us in the grief pit. They want us out of there. The grief pit's a terrible place to live. It's so much better to live in joy.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny because I, when I was in that grief pit, I thought the thing like, Okay, one of the ways I'm going to honor my daughter is I'm never going to be the same again. People will say that he was never the same, and that way that I can show how much I love her. Um, that's the kind of distorted thinking that we go through when we're in that place. And it's really good to have people like you who are saying, no, it's, it's, it's okay to move forward. In fact, it's, it's more than okay. It's what our purpose is here. You're, you're finding new purpose in life and Again, going back to, you know, we expect to lose a parent. That's the natural order, right? But not when you're 17. That's what's happened then. We might lose a spouse. We don't expect to lose a child. But when we have a spouse, you know, it's like you said, we're thinking, okay, after the kids are gone, blah, blah, blah, then we're going to have our retirement. And we don't really think about the fact that one of us is going to go first. Um, so that, that whole thing, I can only imagine what it's like to— like you said, you, you're waking up by yourself, you're doing things by yourself, which you never planned to do.

Yeah, everything— when, when you lose your spouse, you're, you know, you kind of make this plan for your life. You know, you're going to plan to retire. Well, I completely failed retirement, obviously. You plan to retire, that's your goal, right? And we were— we bought— we built this beautiful cabin on a north— northern Minnesota lake that you know, up in the woods. And it was our— it's going to be our legacy to our children and our grandchildren. And this was our life. And Jim died. And so being up there by myself was not really that wonderful because the wonder— the wonderful thing is sharing that time up there. Right, right. And I found out that my kids really couldn't afford to keep our— you know, we built a home on a lake, expensive. And just to keep a property, even if it's paid off, just to keep it is expensive. The taxes are expensive. And like, our kids didn't want it. And like, wait a minute, this was our dream. We, we put everything into this dream to do this. And what, you know, so there goes that dream. We had to go right into plan B. And so I ended up, what we ended up doing, it was getting too expensive for me as well as I sold the cabin. And then, you know, what happens is it helps me to live, you know, my retirement. Uh, and, but a completely different way. I, I would never, and I never knew I could write anything. But when you're in that grief pit, I mean, one thing about going through these things is you, you can, you can probably write a little. I probably can write a little better than before because I have that internal knowledge, right? Sure. But I mean, this is not— never in my wildest dreams would I think that I'd be sitting here talking to you on a podcast after writing a book and, and helping people, helping widows, you know, go through their, their, their widowhood. Right. I never thought— of course, I didn't want to do the widow part because I didn't want to be a widow. So there, you know, that, that's, that's understandable, right? But I think that being resilient means that when something comes up that puts a kibosh on the plans that you have, you redirect it to make the most of what you do have. Look and appreciate what you do have in a way that you never did before. Because I look at my two daughters and say, oh my gosh, I've got these two daughters, they're alive. I'm so grateful for that. I mean, I never would have thought of that before. And I've got wonderful friends and I you know, and I get up in the morning and I can still walk because, you know, I got a new hip and I got, you know, because when you get older, things start falling apart. You know, I'm 68. I might get a new hip. I got all kinds of new, you know, aches and pains. But I'm still here. I'm still useful. And that gives me great joy. And I can live in joy instead of living in fear and living in grief.

Yeah. Well, I think that that attitude of gratitude is like, that's one of the keys to life. And, you know, people could look at you and say, okay, wow, It starts with, you know, being a thalidomide baby and losing your mother and this and all these bad, all these bad things happen to you. Um, you know, it reminds me of the story of Job, I think, in a sense. You know, in the Bible they're always like, you know, what, what did, what did you do wrong, Job? You obviously did something wrong, you know. Um, so have you ever like looked at God and gone, okay, why? How, how much? Yeah, right.

Oh, yeah. Many, many, many times. And I, I read through Job quite a bit, many, many, many times.

Right.

I remember that one time, though, that where there was a difference in that, because I did, of course, like, okay, don't— haven't I had enough? Can't we spread this around a little bit? Because, you know, I really have had my share. I'm looking at my, my cup is overflowing with grief and suffering. And I remember the first time I could laugh at that was when I lost my job. Because that was my identity as a dentist. I mean, when you're a dentist, you're kind of in a nice place. Everyone treats you really well. You know, they don't even— they don't even— you don't have to even reach for your instruments. Someone puts them in your hand. I mean, it's— they clean up after. I mean, it's wonderful. Um, and so now I can't do that anymore. So what use am I? What good am I? And I, you know, I was going through that. I was feeling sorry for myself. I was— after talking to my pastor, when he said, well, it's not the worst thing could happen to you. And when he said that to me, I kind of looked up in God and I said, really? Okay, we're going to have to have a talk. You know what the heck? What I found was, and I could find that connection, what I found was that that was right before my husband really went downhill with his heart. He was working part-time, but then his heart started acting up, and he ended up needing hospitalizations. And he, you know, he needed some help. And I was now home to take care of him. I wouldn't have been home to take care of him had I been working. It almost as if God just said, okay, you know, it's— I kind of feel now that God has a plan for me. I've asked him many times to write it down so I could follow it, but he won't do that because he's God. He can do what he wants, right?

Right.

So I'm just trying to follow what his plan is. And I believe that this is what he wants me to do, which is why I get such joy in doing it. I was up there like, really, God, are you kidding me? Now come on, you know, this is, this is what the heck? And but I was able to laugh at it at that time, because I realized it wasn't the worst thing that could happen to me.

Yeah, and let's talk about, you know, faith and religion, because we talked about how the church has— or I don't know if it's the church has even evolved. People, I think, have evolved. I think some of these doctrines that the church taught were frankly political. They were, they were to keep people in fear, to keep people in control. So yeah, don't take your life because you're going to go to hell. Make sure you do confession, otherwise you're going to go to hell. You're going to have And I think people's hearts have said, okay, that doesn't make any sense. So I think we're kind of rejecting those things. Um, so what are your thoughts on, like, when we're going to a church and they have a doctrine, how much attention do we pay to, pay to it? I mean, I, I, it's, it's a struggle for, I think, for at least for me.

Well, for me, I, somewhere along the line, and I don't know where, I just came to the feeling that it's me and God, it's you and God, it's everyone and God. And I see the church as a very, very helpful community to come together to share most of our— the same faith. I mean, not everything, but most of it. I don't pay attention to some— you know, there's some things in the Catholic Church I didn't really agree with. There are some things in the Baptist Church I really don't agree with. And I'm sure when I go down to Kansas City, if I join that Methodist Church, there'll be some things there I don't really agree with. Make any difference. As long as I'm honoring God, my, my, my job, I just focus on my job. And I don't try to— because he tells us not to judge. There's stuff in the Bible says don't judge other people, right? So I try not to judge other people. I try to just live my life, me and God, me and God. And I— but I love churches to give me a community of people, of believers who believe in 90% of the same things that I believe in. And I learned a lot of that when I was in Rwanda. I— we have 65 libraries in honor of my son in Rwanda. Eric Harms Memorial Library is in Rwanda. And when I went to Rwanda the first time, I thought it was going to just be one or two libraries, and I kind of fell in love with the country. We just kept sending them. And, um, they had— it was 16 years after the genocide when I first went, and they had, um, they— this country that was completely destroyed, I mean, bodies in the streets, you know, in the rivers, and all the hospitals and, you know, organization of the country had been destroyed. Everything was a mess. They went from that, and in just 16 years, when I first went, they had, um, built this country that was safe. It was, it was one of the safest countries in Africa. It had a State Department Level 1 safety rating, which is the same as Canada and, and better than going some places in Europe that everybody goes to. So they turned this into this country. And the secret that they had— first of all, there are lots of different religious groups here. It's a mostly Christian country. But what I noticed— I was with a Catholic priest at the time— their, their thoughts are, as, as they try to bring people together, right? Because they had to learn, we, we don't want to separate people out anymore. So as they bring people together, their philosophy was, we all believe in it, you know. If you believe in a God, you believe in this, the God. And, you know, we're all going to just support each other. We're not going to to divide each other, which was amazing. And through, uh, you know, the, the country as a whole, through forgiveness of the perpetrators and reconciliation, they, they worked at that. They worked at forgiveness, they worked at reconciliation because they wanted their country to be better off for their kids, and they accomplished that. It's an amazing place. I'd recommend anyone go there. It's, it's just place. But I learned a lot from them when I was down there, and I saw how. And I talked with this priest about how, oh yeah, we're just, we just all get along and we just support each other. If you have a faith in a God, we just, we just support you. And I really learned a lot of lessons. I think sometimes we think in the US, you know, we, we, we have a little bit of superiority maybe in, over some other countries. Well, we don't. Let me just tell you, they've got, they're way ahead of us in the forgiveness and reconciliation. In fact, I think our entire legislature should just go down there and learn how to get along. You know, they know what can happen if you don't. And so they have really focused on that. But they helped me a lot to just have that feeling as it's me, it's me and my creator, and I'm going to just live my life according to what I believe he wants me to do. And, um, from community, I think those communities are important. They, uh, I have a great community at my Baptist church. They went through Eric's funeral, they went through Jim's funeral. They know who I am. Uh, and my daughter has a great connection with her Catholic Church, and the schools are great. So it's the community is the important thing from a church, that a church can give you a community. I don't think you necessarily have to believe every, everything they have in their doctrine, you know.

Yeah, that's such a great way of putting it, you know. And it's, as you were saying that, I was getting like, I'm not gonna let the church come between me and God. It's, it's there for the community, but I'm not gonna let it, it's, you know, I'm not gonna let the doctrines, you know, come between me and my Creator. Which is, again, I grew up as, as Pentecostal. I grew up in the church. My grandfather was a pastor. And I've done a lot of studying about the Bible and stuff. And I realized there's a lot of politics in the church. There's a lot of control. There was a lot of, you know, you know, and that's what, that's what people do. That's what men do. There's, there's still, there's still some good things about it. I have a really good friend that he was an evangelical. And when he finally, when he fell out with the church, he's like, okay, that's it. I'm done. I don't believe anything about the afterlife, nothing about spirituality. And it was really funny because I remember a couple years later, he said, "I miss the community. I really miss going to church on Sunday morning." And there's some atheists now, they're at least this time they were trying to get together and have atheist church. It's like, we don't want to— you don't have to believe anything, but just get together and sing some songs and have community. Because I think that's really, really important. I think that might be the most important part about church. I want to ask you about this because a lot of people that follow my program believe in soul planning. We believe that we, we plan our lives before we come in, and a lot of people push back on that. It was just someone that made a comment on my, one of my videos earlier, like, why would I plan cancer? Why would I plan, you know, some of the things that you've been through? Um, so what are your thoughts on, like, does God set up our lives? Is God responsible for what happens? Or What are your thoughts on that? Because you've had quite a life.

One of the things that I find fascinating— when I was writing my book, I started asking big groups when I was sitting at a big table, what do you think happens when you die? Just to get an idea what people are thinking. And the comments are fascinating, and they're very different. They're very different from what I believe. And so I think that certainly I have a little talk with my pre-life planning self, if I plan this life for me, because I really, you know, I've got some issues with that. No, I just feel, I feel to me that the creator of the universe or whatever, you know, I believe it's God, I believe in Christ, loves me. And there's a purpose in my life. Just try to live in that love. And the thing that I think that has been helping me to be at peace and with joy is I don't have to know all the answers. And somebody asked me one time, what would happen to you if half an hour before you died, you realized that all that stuff you believed in was a bunch of bunk and you're just going to die and never, you know, never— he was an angry, very angry person that had just lost a child. So he was in a bad spot.

Sure.

And I said, wow, that's a great question. I said, you know what, I would just be happy that I was able to live my life in joy, because I had a faith that says the joy of the Lord is your strength, and then all things with what the heck, what is that? What the heck does that mean when you're in the pit? Like, give me a break. But it's really true, and you have to work for it. So the fact that I have a faith that tells me to search for joy, and that joy is a goal, and love is a goal. I'm sticking with that. And, and I'll be, you know, I kind of think in the afterlife, we'll be sitting around going, oh yeah, the Catholics are right about the Baptists, and these people are right about that. That's just kind of how I look at it. I don't know all the answers, but I, I do know that my belief now in a creator that loves me and that who sent Lyndon Dungeon over to send me that little, that little phrase and some other things that have happened to me. I do believe, I feel that there's a presence of an ultimate God watching over me, even though you know, I'm gonna have a little talk when we get up. But, but yes, I don't mind. It's okay for me not to know. It's okay for me to have my belief and have other people have their beliefs. And we'll see how it works out when we get to the other side, or what, or, or nothingness, whatever that is. But yeah, we'll just find that out. And having that gives me peace because I don't have to know. I think not having to know gives you peace.

Yeah, that, that is an interesting question. And that the guy they asked you, and that, that comes from a place of anger. It's kind of funny because sometimes people will They'll say, I don't believe in God, but it's like, obviously you do because you're mad at him. You say, I'm so mad, I'm going to pretend that you don't exist. It's like a, it's like a toddler that pretends their parents not standing there. Um, I think that, I think that, that reaction to me is always really interesting. But what I've gotten from talking to you, Kim, this morning is that, you know, just from when I, when you first came on, I could, I could feel the joy in your life. And it's, it's a matter of, and you've said it many times, It's a choice. We can choose how we look at our lives, and all of our lives are a mixed bag. We all hit those roadblocks. That's— I say it's, it's a, it's a feature, it's not a bug. It's the way this world is designed, and I think it's because so we can learn and so we can grow. And we have a choice. And I mean, you could say I started off when I was really young and I was born with this and my mother and this Or you could say, I've got— I'm like, you just told me, I'm going to, I'm going to be splitting my time between many, uh, Minnesota and Kansas City so I can, I can spend time with my grandchildren. I've got these two lovely daughters. And having your son transition gives you more of an appreciation for the children that you have here because you know how precious that is, and then it can, it can be taken away at any time.

Yeah, hard thing to learn, but You, you've got— if you, if you know something can be taken away, I think you value it more.

Yeah, absolutely. And as we get older and things do get taken away from us, you know, it's like we, we realize being able to walk is a cool thing because when you have to have a hip replacement— my wife had 2 knee replacements and she really appreciates being able to walk again. Most of us take that for granted, a lot of us do. We hopefully learn not to.

Yes. And most— and I, my husband was the 12th of 14 children and I was 7 years younger than him.

Oh wow.

Sisters, his older sisters are in their, you know, getting into 90s and late 80s and so on. And so I'm able to see as I, as I progress through my life with them, I'm the only one that can drive at night now. So I'm very valuable in the family. But, you know, as I progress through them, I'm realizing, you know, these are things to look forward to. So don't take the fact you can walk for granted. Don't take the fact that you, you know, you could do these things. I live independently. Don't take that for granted. Be grateful that you can still do it. And again, you know, none of them can drive at night anymore. So I'm, I'm going to take advantage of the fact I can still drive at night. So it's kind of, it's, it's as you age and you go through, I think one of the nice things about having this view of, of an afterlife, and this is just part of the plan, is helpful because you feel like you, you're just progressing through this schooling in life. And you're not going to be gone, you know, Sylvia, who's in her 90s, You know, she's, she's graduating for this schooling and she's not going to be gone. We just lost one past year. She's not gone. That's helpful for me, uh, in having that joy and feeling that, uh, that what I want to do now is make the most of the time I have here. I have limited time. I know I'm in the fourth quarter. Make the most of the time so that the ones that I love will have an easier time progressing as they go through.

Yeah, I think it's a beautiful way of looking at it. We've touched a little bit on your books. Let's talk about a little bit more about what people are going to find in your books.

Well, the Are You Ready? How to Build a Legacy to Die For is— the first part of the book talks about lots and lots of legacies you can leave. You can leave thousands of legacies, but like kindness and hard work and hope and faith, there's so many legacies you can leave behind to help your family get through life. And it explores a number of people, a Holocaust survivor, a lot of talk about Rwandans that I know, uh, and just regular people that have left a legacy of love and joy. You don't have to win an Academy Award, you just have to love people. That's all you need. So that first part of the book talks about that. The second part talks about facing your death, death and dying, what people feel about death and dying. Are you going to go to heaven? Are you going to go somewhere else? Are you just going to be gone? So it explores death and dying with some humor because we need to just not have a little humor about it so that you'll go through it. Then the last part is a workbook, because in order to leave your children solid and ready for the future, you got to do some work. You got to get all your will and your estate planning, all that kind of stuff done. But, and so I talk about all the things that need to be done, healthcare directive, all those things. I also focus on the emotional stability of your family. And so I talk about leaving that great legacy of love. And, you know, the, the most A famous love letter of all time was written by Saint Valentine to be delivered after he died. Mm-hmm. So I recommend leaving Valentine's for your children and having them in your little legacy folder. So as they're going through after you die, they go through your folder after you die and they say, oh, Mom loved me because she got all this stuff together. I don't have to search through her drawers. But then they'll— but then just in case they don't get that part, they'll see a love letter that tells them exactly how much you love them, how proud you are of them. Because, you know, there's just some things you don't want to leave to chance. So, uh, so I, I just really recommend giving your legacy, building your legacy with a focus on providing resilience and emotional security and lack of conflict. Because 57% of Americans report conflict around a death. You don't want conflict around your death. So leave them in good shape so there's no conflict, they're ready for it. And then when you're up there in heaven or wherever you go, uh, they're going to be down here and they're going to be stable on Earth. You're not going to make their life worse because you lived. You're going to make your life better because you lived.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you're, you're doing fantastic work. So, um, I know you're just— you're— I'm sure your kids are proud of you, including your son Eric, and, uh, everybody around you. You just— you're just doing great work. Um, so I appreciate that. So if people want to reach out to you after listening to this, is there a way that they can reach you?

Yes, they can just go to my website, which is drkimberlyharms.com. And I'm going to be developing a course to go along with the book. It should be coming out about a week so that if, if the book isn't enough to help you get ready, you need a little more motivation, and maybe you're a little procrastinator, you can go through a little online course that'll just help walk you through the steps so that you leave a great legacy for your family and they are, they are emotionally more stable. And they know you loved them after you're gone.

Awesome. Anything that you'd like to say? Anything I forgot to ask you? Or any last words you'd like to leave us with?

Well, I just want— I know you're, you're talking about grief, and again, I've spent many years in the grief pit. I really would just like to encourage anyone who's there right now to understand that getting out of that pit is a wonderful experience for you and everyone around you. And it's hard, it's not easy, it's hard. But I just want to urge you and encourage you to fight and kick and scream and claw your way out of that pit for yourself and for all the people around you. And I just want to give them all a hug because, you know, I've been there in that pit.

Yeah. Kim, thanks for being so open. Thanks for being so, so caring and sharing. And, uh, have a great rest of your day.

Thank you so much. This has been a pleasure.

Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.