Shelley F. Knight- Good Grief- Making Positive Changes

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Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hi everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. I've got with me today Shelley F. Knight. And Shelley is a positive changes expert who can help you through her written and her spoken words. She passionately shares her years of clinical, spiritual, holistic experience in her books, in her podcast, in her coaching program, in her newsletter, on YouTube, and on social media networks. Shelley Knight— Shelley F. Knight is the author of Positive Changes: A Self-Kickbook that came out November of 2018, and Good Grief: The A to Z Approach of Modern Day Grief Healing, that came out in 2021. And she's the host of the award-winning mental health show Positive Changes, a Self Kick Podcast. Shelley connects and works— connecting with Shelley is a wonderful opportunity to work courageously and start creating your positive changes. And she brings with you— she brings with her an entire toolbox of qualifications and experience to support you on your journey of growth. In terms of her clinical expertise, Shelley holds a first-class degree in adult nursing and postgraduate studies in in palliative care and life-limiting illness, patho— pathopsych— pathophysiology of cancer, cytotoxic chemotherapy, and clinical hypnotherapy. That's hard to say all together. In addition, she holds a plethora of holistic and spiritual qualifications, including transformational regression therapy, spiritual coaching, spiritual development teacher, holistic diagnostic skills, diagnosis skills, mindfulness, neuro-linguistic programming, herbalism, and dream therapy. She's also an intuitive tarot card reader and intuitive tarot coach with gifts of clairsentience, clairaudience, and clairvoyance that were inherited from her ancestors. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth Shelley F. Knight.

Thank you so much, Brian. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Shelley. You've got a awful lot of experience, an awful lot of tools in your toolbox. One of the questions I was going to ask you before we get started was how you got started in this, but it sounds like there's some background in your family of intuitiveness. So how did you get started on this, this journey that you're on?

So my family are really open. And I think when we're growing up, we think our family's normal. And it's only when we have conversations like, oh, you don't speak about no spirits, death and things like that. But I was raised very open about spirits being around us and like psychic aunties and grandmothers. So it's always been my norm. And talking about death and grief has always been like a kind of dinner conversation for us. So it's probably why I'm at ease with it all.

So are there mediums in your family?

My great-grandmother was, but since then, no one really— I think some of us have the gifts sort of thing, but we don't work actively. We just kind of tap into that intuition and that knowing. For our own benefit and our loved ones.

So yeah, that's, that's, you're right, that's kind of unusual. I think a lot of us, you know, avoid the topics of death and grief and stuff like that. So you said this was normal in your family. When did you discover that it wasn't quite so normal for everybody outside of your family?

When I went to college, you know, like you're on the train going off to college, and then you say like, what happened at home last night? And it's just like, other people would watch a sort of soap opera, or do their homework. And we'd have been talking about a haunted house. My dad was renovating or something like that. Or somebody would die because my grandparents were a huge part of my upbringing. So there was always quite a lot of death around. That's not too macabre to say. But yeah, like when you go to college and you have those sort of conversations and you're like, oh, okay, maybe not.

So you obviously decided to take your gifts and turn them into what you're doing now as kind of as your life's work. So How do you help people to make positive changes?

I break it down into like steps, and I never want anyone to do like a massive change. I think when we make big changes, it's just too much. And if it's not a successful change, we feel more of a failure and more stuck in life. So I just do like small but mighty changes. And it is just like looking at your current reality. What area of your life do you want to move forward in? And, you know, my mum always used to say to me, never get stagnant in life. And I never really knew what it meant at the time. But it is that, like, if you're unhappy or, you know, you have a dream but you feel a thousand miles away, don't stop. Do something each day. And, you know, I just say like 10 minutes a day of being with yourself, working towards a dream. You know, I know we say we're busy, but I think everyone can spare 10 minutes a day to try and move on from their current reality.

Yeah, I think that's really important that people— you see, sometimes people take on too much. And they just say, I'm going to do all these things and make these big changes that are, first of all, they're not sustainable. And secondly, they're not achievable. And then we get frustrated and we stop. So I like your approach of doing things that are, that are small and sustainable. And that you bring that into the work that you do. So you do coaching with people to help them make these changes?

Yeah, so I, I don't really like the word coach. No, I said I am a coach, but I prefer the word mentor. I think coaching is quite harsh, and I'm not here to judge anyone. I prefer like sort of spiritual mentor, like just someone who has your back. And it is— I sort of start with like a magic wand because people, you know, they have that inner niggle, that search, like, is there more to life? Is this as good as it gets? Kind of thing. And I want them to sort of just start on one area, because you might hate your job, be unhappy with your relationship, not like your body, your plans are falling apart, and that's just too much. So just, I always say, start with yourself, because I think self-love is a huge thing, very underrated. But yeah, sort of look at what area of your life needs to change, and if there are loads, just choose one. Because as you say, otherwise we're just going to get stuck and beat ourselves up for being a failure, not working out, not going to try again. Become our own worst enemy. So yeah, start small in one area of your life. Yeah.

So yeah, I also agree with that approach, because we're our own worst critics, right? So if someone's— if you said to someone, what's, what's wrong with you? They're gonna give you a list of 100 different things.

Yeah, but what's good about you? What do you love about yourself? And it's like, well, I don't, you know, and it's yet to small steps.

And so how does this help? And when people are dealing with grief, because I know you wrote a book called Good Grief: The A to Z Approach to Modern Day Grief healing. So how does that help? How does this approach help with that?

So it's still about creating positive changes. And I just want people to sit alone for 10 minutes a day, really, Brian, if I'm honest, I want an hour, but I just want people to sit with their grief, and just allow stuff to come up. Because I've seen time and time again that people just push it down. And it doesn't work, you know, the sticky plaster approach, the band-aid, it doesn't work. You just need to dig out the wound and move on from it. So with grief, it is 10 minutes a day. And like in Good Grief, the age-set approach of modern-day grief healing, it is like, it's made up of different parts. It's what goes into life, life stages, dying, death, after death, Afterlife, and it's got a big section on communication. Then the largest part is the A to Z, the tools. And in there, they're just loads of tools you can do at home and around your local community, because not everyone's for talking therapies, not everyone wants medication. And I just, oh, I get really passionate. I think we forget, or we've never been told, just how powerful and amazing we can be and the tools are just to chip away at your brilliance. I think, you know, we have grief which is traumatic enough, but a lot of us have come from, you know, a childhood or relationship or a job where we've been spoken down to. We don't feel worthy of healing or worthy of being heard or, you know, worthy of anything sometimes. And so the tools you can start to do in your own home, and some of them are spiritual because, you know, I am a sucker for oracle cards and tarot cards and lighting a candle, grabbing a crystal. But there's other things like journaling, yoga, because again, it comes down to just 10 minutes a day can make a big difference rather than just sitting there in your grief. There's a saying in our family, like, you only get what you've got. And if you keep doing what you're doing, you only get what you got. And when other people used to visit, they sort of, you know, do it in the head going, you know what, but it's true that if you keep doing what you're doing, nothing's really going to change. Whereas 10 minutes a day, half an hour, 1 hour of trying something new will have a ripple effect.

Yeah. So how would you define what is grief? What would you say that grief is?

So I'm a little bit feisty about this, Brian D Smith, because I think people think that grief is death of a loved one, when actually that's bereavement. Grief is the loss of anything with which we have an emotional connection. So we would have all experienced grief in the pandemic. So it's like loss of finances, jobs, health, dreams, plans, freedom, you know, sense of security, a sense of control. When we lose something that we have a connection with, something that's part of our daily life, that can trigger the grief process. So I suspect many of us, if not all of us around the world, have had grief on some level in the last 18 months.

Yeah, I think that's really something that a lot of people don't recognize, that, that we are— most of us, I'd say, we're in some sort of grief right now. Most of us experienced some loss of freedom, financial things. A lot of us experienced a loss of a person, but the loss of a job, the loss of a relationship. So when people sometimes hear about grief, they'll say, well, I'm not in grief, but because I haven't lost anybody. So what are some signs and symptoms that people have when they're going through grief so we can recognize that we're in grief? Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for grief Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

They are so vast. It's a little bit like people think grief is no death of a loved one. They think grief is like this emotional journey and it's mental health, but it's more than that. It's like really multifaceted. So it is like physical, your social, behavioral, and spiritual. So like physical, You might just think you've had a hard day at the office because you might have a headache or migraines or dizziness. You might have changes in skin. I get really sore skin when I'm sort of stressed and grieving. Things like sore throats, dry mouth, ulcers, sensitive to noise and light— that's another thing I've experienced. And then the heart. I know it is a very emotional thing, grief, like we said, but it is like the heart palpitations or just like a pain in your chest and things like that. So yeah, to me, grief is huge. And I think a lot of us, you know, just say, oh, I've eaten something wrong, it didn't agree with me, I think I've got a bit of chest pain, or I'm just tired. When actually, these are all signs of grief, when the body, you know, the immune system's taken a knock. So yeah, there's so many signs.

Yeah, well, that's good for people to know. Because as we were saying earlier, sometimes people don't recognize there's— they know there's something off, but they might not realize they're in grief. So they might look at a book like yours and say, well, that's not really going to apply to me. Because again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not in grief, but you could quite possibly be. So we've covered grief, and we've covered bereavement. Bereavement, how would you define mourning?

So mourning is more like when it's stipulated by your religious beliefs. So like certain people in certain faiths believe they should mourn for a set amount of days. So some are like 100 days, some a month and a day, some 100, some a year. And that's when your grief process is kind of dictated to you in line with that religion.

Okay, yeah.

But I met a lady the other day, and I found this fascinating because, well, we're awfully English over here, and we try and, you know, not to grieve. Stiff upper lip, you know, chin up, be strong, that's what we say over here. But, um, met a lovely lady the other day, and she was speaking about mourning And she absolutely loved it. Because she said, like, you know, you English people, you sort of say things like, well, you never get over it, your life's over. And she goes, but we just totally commit to how we feel in those 30 days. And we celebrate them, remember them, and then we carry on. And it's really interesting about— I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's more of an observation that you can kind of control your grief, you can call put it into a little compartment. Or you can, you know, spend the rest of your life trying to overcome it. But yeah, mourning to me, I find fascinating.

Yeah. And it's interesting to have that, that time. And there are cultures that have like a set time, or at least a time when you've given— you've been given permission to grieve, right? So you might wear different clothing or something. So people realize when you're acting this way, it's because you're, you're in bereavement, or you're in some sort of grief. So I think that is nice. You know, I guess the flip side of that might be, well, you're past your 30 days. So let's get over it. And how do you feel about grief? Does grief come in like one size fits all? Just like, is it the same for everybody?

No, I always say that your grief is going to be unique as your fingerprint. Because how you grieve will be based on how you've seen your parents grieve, how you've been told at school, all your life experiences up to that point, any loss you've had before it. And then if you've got sort of, you know, current health issues or mental health issues and things like that, then it's your community. Do you have a good support network? So it's so diverse in how you grieve. But then there's like 17 different types of grief as well. I mean, when I did my nursing degree 20 years ago, there was 3. You had like normal grief, absent grief, or delayed. You either crying, wasn't, or you would in the future.

There was—

that was it, right? But now I think this is before the pandemic even, you know, medical world has changed and we're living longer and we're sort of treating more conditions. We're always having clinical deaths and on and on it goes. And so different types of grief, like anticipatory grief, is a new grief. Because, you know, there's still the physical presence, no one's physically died. You're grieving that person the way you remember them and things like that. So yeah, grief is huge. It's huge, because we're all different. And what's causing the grief is unique as well.

Yeah, and I like what you touched on, you know, it seems like our understanding of grief has really changed over the last 100 years or so. And as you said, we've started breaking down different categories,. And I know, like, the psychiatrists use the DSM, and they've kind of redefined grief. And people that are grief experts— there used to be 3 types, and now there are, you know, 17 types. And I was speaking with someone just a couple days ago who knows that their child is going to pass, and they know pretty much when they're going to pass. And they were like, well, I— but I'm not in grief yet because, you know, she's still here. And I said, well, yeah, you actually are. It's you said it's something called anticipatory grief. When we know that something is coming, we can still already— we could start the grieving process before they're even gone.

Yeah, you do. You see, it's sort of like in dementia, or when you've got that diagnosis, like my own dad— I say biological dad, because a lot of my grief work stemmed from my stepdad dying. But my biological dad, you know, got anticipatory grief for him at the moment, because we know, you know, he's got a limited life. And yeah, and you sort of like grieve everything that's gone before, like, you know, so we missed out on many years together, my father and I. So it's like everything that we've missed that we could have been doing, it's the fact that the future's limited as well, but he's still physically here. But you can get anticipatory grief, you know, through medical conditions, and some people even have it like when their partner works away, like in service, start to grieve that loss because that relationship's changed. So I think again, it comes down to probably a lot of us are grieving but don't recognize it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's why I like that expanded view of grief. Because I talked to a woman whose son had— was estranged from the family, and she didn't know whether he was alive or dead. And I'm like, from your perspective, it's just as if he's dead. It's the same thing. You don't know if you're going to see him again. You don't know when you're going to see him again. And then there's this added component that it's, you know, his choice. So, and that just kind of goes back to the point, like you said, every grief is as individual as our fingerprint, because we're all different people. And we're all in different circumstances. I did want to ask you, because I did talk to you, you mentioned earlier that, you know, your family has the intuitive abilities, and your family talks about death and dying a lot. But a lot of times when people get into this work, there's, there's like a triggering event, there's something that happens, that says, okay, this is why I want to dedicate my life to this. Was there something like that in your life? Yeah.

So even though I grew up with my family being very open about spirituality, you know, psychic Granny Jo, um, and things like that, I never really used it. And it was only really when I started to experience loss and probably just life in my own journey that I started to become more open to it. So even when I went into nursing, I went into healthcare and didn't realize actually it wasn't all about health. There was a lot of death in that health, Brian D Smith. And I wasn't well prepared at all. No student nurse was. And that's why I love Good Grief. It's the book I wish I'd have had as a student nurse. So I went into healthcare and there was people dying. I worked in a very busy acute medical ward. And then I had the news my beautiful stepdad died. Really suddenly, no goodbyes. So it was probably one of my biggest life traumas, losing him, such a beautiful soul. And so then that was like the first positive change really, that I was on a ward that I didn't really love. So I went into haematology and oncology. And it's kind of a strange reason, it was kind of like my own grief healing, but I wanted to know what it was like when you do have that time to say goodbye at the end of life. What would I have done differently with that and things like that. And I loved it. I truly loved it. But then the loss continued. Like, my grandfather died, my grandmother died, my own infertility. We lost many children. Um, and with each loss, I just became more spiritually aware to the point, like, fast forward a decade, and it was very hard to nurse having felt and witnessed so much spirituality around, like, death, to be honest. I wasn't that kind of Western medicine woman, you know, we sort of give you this treatment for that and that to sort of, you know, dry up the secretions, this one to do your pain. To me, I started to see a change in the room would be softer, like the walls, temperature changes, colors, the body would look different, and so many spiritual differences, not just the clinical teachings I had. And that's what happened really, as I experienced my own grief in work and personally, I realized we're more than the physical body. And it's quite hard to nurse with that mindset, or for me it was.

Yeah. Yes. So, um, is that when you started working in palliative care at that point, or—

So sadly, as a chemotherapy nurse, you know, we do a lot of active treatment, but sometimes, you know, we don't respond to the treatment. Or we've caught the cancer too late. And so that's how I ended up doing like end of life and learning about palliative care. And it is then, but you can see in acute medicine, I just started to see like these bodies, like we'd all be standing around mourning. But the body looked different. I just knew the soul had gone, like self-protection. I don't believe it's there while we're crying by the bedside. I think they've already gone. You know, you'd have nonverbal patients talking. To people that have already passed. It's going, it's all right for me to go now, you know, and it, you just can't put it into that, you know, nursing degree.

Yeah. So as, as an intuitive, did you experience anything when people were transitioning? Anything like, you know, seeing their soul leave or, or having communication with someone who was non-communicative?

Yeah, so that happens a lot with my own grandmother and patients time and time again. They would just say, 'It's all right,' or 'Okay,' or 'Hello,' or 'I'm going now.' Energy-wise, around the chest area, there would always be like a mist or like an aura, and it just felt like something was going up towards the head and leaving. There is a really lovely tradition here in the UK for nurses, clinical and spiritual alike, that when a patient dies, we open the window a little to let the spirit out on its journey. But that's about as clinical and spiritual as it is, we agree, really. But yeah, I've become aware of like mists around the body, the skin always looks smoother to me. The eyes kind of look empty. I really believe that we do, you know, leave before, you know, our family's there.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, you're kind of talking about the tension, I think, between the clinical and the spiritual. And so for you, it sounds like you just decided you needed to move into more of the spiritual. So I know, I know, as a former nurse, people probably expect you to be more, you know, clinical. And, you know, spirituality is a big part of what I do in my grief work. In fact, that's, that is 90% of what I do in my grief work is, is convincing people that this is not the only life we have. So do you, have you experienced pushback on that? Or how are people, how do people react to you being so spiritual in your, in your approach?

I think they find me fascinating, but I don't think they always believe me, Brian D Smith. I was recently away on a retreat just before Good Grief came out, took a few days off. And I speak to like this lady. And she was just like, you know, open mouth and starstruck. And she goes, I find you fascinating. But there's that kind of— that's fascinating story. But yeah, I think she just went back to her daily job. I just don't think people believe it. But I'm nearly 50, so, you know, if I'd have doubted it, like, once, spirit and the universe would throw it back at me until I got the lesson. So, you know, at the end of the day, you know, if you believe in anything, believe in yourself. And I totally believe, you know, that we come down here to learn lessons, then we go back at the end. We just keep learning and learning and learning. And that brings me comfort. And that's what I want to get across in Good Grief, that, you know, try all the tools, just find what brings you comfort, what resonates with you, what doesn't resonate with you, but just do something and sit in your grief.

Yeah. And yet the thing is, I try to tell people, you know, you could try on different stories, you know, you can, you can try on different things that you want to tell yourself. So if you want to believe that we are just biological accidents that just happen to appear on this planet, that you were born one day, you die one day, and then you cease to exist. That's a story that you can tell yourself, and you can find evidence to support that. Now, how does that make you feel? And how does it— how does that give— does it give you any purpose in your life? Does it give you joy in your life? And I'm not here to tell you whether it should or not. Or you could try on this other thing that says, I am a spiritual being that came here to have experiences. And when I— when my body dies, I go on, and, and therefore I find some sense of purpose in that. You can, you can try that on. And so, you know, it's funny, because I will get people that have listened to my podcast, and then they'll, they'll call me up for a consultation. They'll say, do you really believe that we know that we really live on? Do you really believe that, like, my— this is my daughter behind me who passed away 6 years ago. Do you really believe, you know, and I'm like, yeah, I really do. That's why, that's why I do what I do. But I'm also like yourself, my background is science. I'm— my background is chemical engineering. And so I've, I've studied this. And I'm like, if you studied the evidence, you would believe it too. And that's, that's what I'm here to do with people. I know that's what you're trying to do with people, is share this, you know, bigger picture of who we are.

Yeah, I love the fact you've got science background. We're seeing more and more of it, aren't we? Is it like Eben Alexander and Michael Newton with the past life and things like that? And I love it when you know, you can put science and spirituality together.

Well, you know, a lot of people— and again, being a scientist, I've done a lot of research— a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that materialism equates to science, and it doesn't. And, you know, some of the guys, some of our most famous scientists— Niels Bohr, Max Planck, Albert Einstein, Heisenberg— all these guys believed in something beyond just the body. And they all believe that they're— that we are— they are— we are spirit. And these are some of our greatest scientific minds we've ever had. And it wasn't just that they made it up. I mean, they looked around and they saw evidence for it. So it's really been something where humans have lost over the last 100, 200 years, that we fall into this materialism, which, you know, people like yourself are helping people to understand this, this is just not true.

Yeah, and I think, you know, we need to find something to believe in. I had this conversation with my son just now at dinner because they were talking about religious education at school. He's like, well, I don't believe in God. And I was like, well, that's okay, but what do you believe in? You know, and it is that, isn't it? It doesn't have to be something like we're talking about mourning when it's a particular religion, but you do have to believe in something, whether it starts with yourself, believing in yourself, your local community, volunteering, afterlife, you know, whatever you believe in. But I think in life, it's always, you know, just comforting to have that purpose, that belief. You know, the reason you get out of bed every morning, we all need that.

Yeah.

And it's interesting, my daughter is, she's 24. And we just had this conversation a couple of days ago, because she's, she says she's an atheist. And I'm like, so what does that mean to you? You know, but she believes she, she has spiritual beliefs, she believes that we still go on after we, after we pass. So we, we have to really be— talk to people like you did with your son and say, what is— what does that mean to you? Because I don't believe in the God that a lot of people believe in either. But I believe there's too much evidence to, to go to the extreme. I call it throwing the baby out with the bathwater. People will read the Bible and say, well, this guy doesn't exist, therefore no God exists, therefore there's no spirituality, there's no soul, there's no higher me, I'm just this body. And that's, that's an extreme point of view. That's— I I think it's faulty.

Yeah, no, I think my younger self would just think I'm just this body. But then my older 47-year-old self thinks I'm this body, I chose it in the life between life, you know, goes far beyond my teenage ideas.

Yeah, well, it's for me, it's been an evolving thing. And I think, you know, we need to encourage young people and older people to keep exploring, you know, because We're— so much more is being revealed to us, you know, in terms of even our scientists. Like, you mentioned Eben Alexander, which I was so grateful that he came out as a neurosurgeon who was a strict materialist who said this is impossible, it's an artifact of the brain. And now I see him, you know, all over the place going, no, no, I was, I was wrong. And we need people like that out there. And again, people like yourself who've got that clinical background, who have the experience, you know, with, with the people that are transitioning to say no, you know, it's not what it's not as it appears on the surface.

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian as a life coach, to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grief2growth.com, www.grief2growth.com. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grief2growth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth. Grief2growth to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief 2 Growth.

Yeah, and I think, obviously, it's a comfort to us to have this belief and hear like the science, you know, telling us that it's more. But I think it's reassuring for the dying as well, you know, that it's not final for them either. You know, so I think everyone just needs— I think everyone's so scared of living, which is why we've become so scared of dying, is what I've observed. People always got this fear of failure and making a change. It's no wonder we fear death as much because we're even fearful in life. And I'd love for that to be a huge shift in the world. I really would.

Yeah. So in terms of dying, is there any such thing as a, as a good death?

Yeah, I think so. And I think one of the key things is if you've had a good life, so you've like lived that adventure, got all of those, you know, bucket list things out and felt loved, given love, I think, you know, if you've had a good life, then you can have a good death because you don't die with all those regrets within you. Because I terrified my husband Brian D Smith, if I'm honest, because I, you know, wanted to publish a book, I wanted a large family, I want to travel the world, you know, all these kinds of things. And I've done it all. And I think people have heard me speak before will know that my last pregnancy was very traumatic. And I had like a semicolon moment and wanted to take my own life. And, you know, I got through it. My daughter's now 7. And it was another big, huge spiritual thing for me as well. But because I've come through so much, I, you know, obviously I don't want to die tomorrow, but I don't have a fear of it either because I've had such a good life. It's quite difficult, hence all the wrinkles, but that aside, you know, it's kind of been a blast as well. And so I think you can have a good death if you've had a good life. And then, you know, even if you haven't had a lovely life, you know, again, those medical advancements over 100 years, we can make death dignified as well for those who might still have things they wanted to do. Sadly, that is often the case. We don't live fully, but I think you can have a good death. You know, if you're not in sudden death, always like my dad— I don't know what his dying wishes were because we never knew— but I think, you know, as long as you sort of like, you know, reconnected with the family, got your papers in order, you know, and had a dignified death within line with your wishes, I think we can have them, yes.

Yes, yes, I agree. And, you know, when you were saying that, you know, you've had a good life, and you kind of scare your husband, you know, we're very shy about talking about death, you know, in general. And if you say, I'm not fearful of death, or like, I know several people, because I'm a part of an organization called Helping Parents Heal. And so it's all parents whose children have transitioned, and you'll hear a lot of us say, I'm looking forward to death. And people go, oh no, that's bad. That's terrible. You should never look forward to death because death is something to be avoided at all costs. And it's scary. And the more that you— the more that I study it, the more the fear goes away. And the more I hear people tell about their near-death experiences, and I talk to intuitives who can speak with people on the other side and everything, I'm like, I don't— there's nothing to fear. It's, it's it's natural. It's built into our biology. You know, again, being a nurse, you know, this body is not designed to live forever. And there's a reason for that. So what's, what's the reason for it? Because this is not where we're supposed to be. This is not our home. So saying these things for people can be shocking, you know, even to even to our loved ones sometimes.

Yeah, but I just want to be really honest with him. I mean, I don't I don't know, to me it's really simple. It might go back to like my upbringing or my nursing degree or having lost so much, I don't know. But for me, it sounds really macabre now I've thought it in my head, but you know, death is our only certainty in life. And I think we're just kidding ourselves thinking it's not going to happen to me, or if I don't talk about it, you know, it doesn't come any sooner from talking about it, but it makes it easier when it comes if you have spoken about it. I just don't know why people don't talk about it. I talk about my kids, you know, we're really open, probably too open actually, because our teenager went for a sleepover and obviously the siblings couldn't see him and they said, "Oh, has he gone? Do we just make another one now?" I went, "No, he's literally on a sleepover." Yeah. So maybe we're too open, you know, when someone's out of sight they think they're dead and you would just replace them.

Yeah.

So maybe I've gone to the other extreme, but I just think we shouldn't fear it because it's like anything, isn't it? Like, you know, if you want to be a certain job role, if you don't go for it, you're always going to fear it. And I think when we face our fears, they're no longer fears, they're just thoughts we've told ourselves, which have become a belief. So, you know, just tap into it.

Well, I can say as someone who suffered from thanatophobia for most of my life, you know, fearing death, that the only thing that got me over that was facing it. And as you said, and people don't like to hear it, but it's an absolute fact. You know, there's— we have a saying, at least in the US, the only thing certain in life are death and taxes. But the only thing certain in life is death. And the only thing— once you're born, it's, it's certain you're going to die. It's just a matter of where and when. But you know, you're right. I know I put off buying life insurance for a long time because we think it's a jinx. If I, if I buy life insurance, I'm going to die. Or People don't want to work on their wills. You know, people— I know people that are in their 40s and 50s that haven't done a will yet because they don't want to think about death because it's this vast unknown. But it's like, it's like driving at a wall at 100 miles an hour with no brakes. You're going to hit the wall at some point. So, but it's not bad. I mean, that's the thing. That's the, the thing that's so fascinating for me is once I started studying it, everything I found has been good. I mean, everything I found about, about what we call death has just been, it's just a transition. So I encourage people, lean into it. You know, if you have a fear of death, don't try to avoid it, because that's not going to happen. Just really dig into it.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I'd absolutely love to do that. But I've been really blessed because I was a chemotherapy nurse for many years. And so I get to see people when they're diagnosed with cancer. And when you face your own mortality with a life-changing diagnosis, you have— well, I suppose you do have a choice, but not many people choose not to think about their own mortality. And so some people might think, oh, I give up. But very few. I honestly don't know who in my entire nursing career. Most people, when faced with your own mortality, because you think you're bundling along and you're never going to die, and you got told you've got this cancer. You know, that's facing your own mortality, you know, and life just got real. And you have to really look at your life. And I think the pandemic's done that, if I'm honest, you know, that we've really, you know, as we lost jobs, so I hate that job anyway, or, you know, anything like that. When you face your own mortality or start to lose things which you thought were a given, that's when you can lean into that sort of death. Just think, actually, what do I want from life? Because, you know, the life lessons I learned from the dying, I still apply to my life now. I've been really privileged in my career. When they face their own mortality, either end of life or through the cancer, it's so simple how to live your life. But we don't. We live in fear of life. And actually, it's really simple. It just comes down to a few things that matter. And it's not money.

So what are some of those lessons you've learned?

The first one, which I always found quite sad, is they used to say, "Just be happier." You know, if we achieve things, we don't celebrate them. We just play it down because someone else is having a bad day. You know, just allow yourself to be happier. And I thought it's a given, but apparently it's not. You know, loads of different generations had married a girl they thought they should because she got pregnant or because she was a nice girl. That's not what they wanted. But, you know, allow yourself to be happier. Another one similar to what we're saying earlier about belief is just like connect to something bigger than yourself, you know. Absolutely love yourself, but know you're more than that. So whether that's local community, you know, researching the afterlife, always connect with something bigger than yourself, which is lovely because then you know, you know, that you're part of the universe, your stardust, which I think is beautiful. Mm-hmm. Speak your truth was a real poignant one for me. I've nursed men and women, but I must say a lot of men with esophageal cancer, so like around the voice box and that, and they used to say about speak your truth. And there was one patient— if you ask a nurse, we always remember one patient— and mine was this gentleman with esophageal cancer whose whole life again hadn't been happy as he could be and never spoke out of line. He had like a nagging wife, a dominant father, you know, he just had all these people, it was just silence. And he was allowed, you know, but he'd never used his voice and he was about to lose his voice. And he said, like, just always speak your truth. And it might not be the ultimate truth, but it's your truth and you're valid. And that sticks with me, do you know what I mean? That must have been 20 years ago. But, you know, yeah, speak your truth. Simple things like do more of what you love. And sadly, I don't know if we do know what makes us happy and what we love, but they always said do more of it. And similarly to the others, it was always sort of like live your life. And I thought, you are. It's like we've been saying, we don't really live your life. You just bumble along and then you might get a diagnosis or someone might die. Or here we are, you might get a pandemic you didn't see coming. And then when you face your own mortality or things, you know, you hit rock bottom and you're, you know, that rug's pulled from beneath you. That's when you start to live your life. You start to rebuild, you know, you get the jobs you want, the qualifications you want, you have no money. So you start small by creating money with things you are passionate about. So they're all very similar. Yeah. But just be happier, connection, speak your truth, do more of what you love and things like that, which isn't rocket science. But I think we're so fearful of failure that we don't. You know, allow ourselves to be happier, go for that job, that man, that car, whatever it is you want. So yeah, simple, but they've stayed with me.

Those are really important lessons, and they are simple. And the thing is, I've heard people say this, you know, the illness that I got was the best thing that ever happened to me because it really caused me to reevaluate. And this pandemic is an illness for all of us. And it's interesting to see how people are Right now here in the US, we're having trouble finding people to fill certain jobs because a lot of people said, I'm just not going back to that job. I hated it. It didn't pay enough money anyway. You know, I've been living this life that I don't want to live. And I've realized because of looking at my mortality and realizing that I've got other options, I'm just— I'm not going back. And it's really kind of thrown the whole system a monkey wrench, as we call it, in the whole system. People are like, what are we going to do? When people don't want to work at these, these terrible jobs. But people are realizing, you know, life is short. And I— and almost all of us now know someone who's lost their life due to the pandemic, and a lot of them young, healthy people that we thought were going to live, you know, for forever.

Yeah, and I think that's key what you said there, that, you know, we have this saying here in the UK that when people die and they're old, like my grandparents, People say things, or at least they had a good innings, which means they've had a good life, or so it's assumed, because they've had many years. But, you know, the pandemic showed us that actually even teenagers have had to face their own mortality, something they might not have done if we've been bumping along on that sort of not truly living our life. So it's been a real wake-up call. I know a lot of people say it's been a global spiritual awakening, but we don't always get to look at our own mortality until our health's taken from us. And I think, you know, as you said, So many people walked away from jobs they didn't want to do. But would they have done that without the pandemic? Probably not.

Right. Well, and the thing is, the reason why I asked you earlier if there was a grief event that triggered you on this journey is almost everyone I've interviewed that's doing this type of work, there's, there's something or some things that kind of like bumped them off of the path they were on onto the path they're on now. It's like, I think human beings almost kind of need that wake-up call. We talked earlier, we come here with a lesson and a plan and certain things, but we get so caught up in the game that we're playing that we forget we're just playing a game and we need something to kind of remind us. Yeah.

So my— was the trigger was my beautiful stepdad dying, and then my grandparents. My husband and I have no grandparents alive. We're only in our 40s, but we have no grandparents But it was my infertility loss and infertility. So I was pregnant and had miscarriages. And it is one of those sort of disenfranchised griefs because no one knows why you're grieving. Like you said, if you're mourning, you wear black. But as people don't really know you were pregnant, no one really knows why. You know, they just think you're a miserable cow and don't sit next to her in the office kind of thing. But it was again from that hitting rock bottom from, you know, in a nutshell, it's quite a long story in itself. But basically, my last pregnancy, I was pregnant with triplets and then I lost and it was twins and I lost. And now we've got 7-year-old Daisy, who's amazing. But she did nearly break me, Brian. She did nearly break me.

Yeah.

And it is from that. So basically, we've had many losses. We've had 7 miscarriages, many of them multiple. And when we had our 20-week scan, We was told, like, this baby wasn't going to last beyond 28 weeks of gestation, and they told us to terminate, we'll do it now. But having had so many pregnancy losses, I was like, absolutely no way, because my success rate isn't very successful and I'm probably going to lose her anyway. So clinically they gave up on us, and so I didn't have anything else to go on. But I'd had a vision for 18 months, 2 years, absolute clear vision of a tiny dark-haired baby girl to come. You know, we had these blonde children but had this dark-haired girl to come. And so clinically we was told to terminate. That was never going to be a choice of mine. And so I just went all in spiritually. I'd have a spiritual vision for 18 months, 2 years, like weekly, then getting more and more frequently. And so I went all on in, and every day I would do like an affirmation, tell her she was well, work with color. Read every single book on miracles you could ever imagine. I had Reiki every 2 weeks. Somebody did psychic surgery on me. I called in mediums, daily walk, Mother Nature, absolutely everything. And she's 7 now. And so, you know, clinically, she had 1 in 80,000 chance of making it. Wow, maybe less. But yeah, I mean, I just read So many books, never told she was ill, called in guides, everything. And it worked for me. And that's why I get so passionate. Like, if you're sitting there and you've had loss in your life, whether that's death of a loved one and miscarriage, job, direction, confidence, you know, just try a spiritual tool each and every day. Yeah, because at the end of the day, no matter what the outcome is, what it was like for me, my Daisy journey, No matter what the outcome, I knew I would have tried. I didn't want to die with those life lessons in me like I learned, you know. And just always try because you're never going to know. But just don't sit there in your grief. It nearly broke me. But that's how I went very strongly then from the clinical to the spiritual, because clinically they didn't believe in me. And as I said, you always have to believe in something. So I believed in myself.

Yeah. And, and, and, you know, again, as a rational, skeptical kind of person, the more I talk to people, the more I realize that miracles happen. Um, there was a woman you were telling— it reminded me of the story of a woman I interviewed, um, who had this vision that she was going to die in childbirth. And she kept telling everybody she was going to die in childbirth, like, over and over. And of course, people weren't listening to her. You're having visions, you're having dreams, you're just hysterical because you're pregnant.. And she ended up having an NDE during childbirth. She died, and they were able to bring her back, but only because she insisted on telling them over and over again. So the anesthesiologist at the last moment brought in like an extra crash cart. If it hadn't been there, she would not have come back. But she kept listening to that spirit that was telling her, you know, this is what you need to do. And, um, yeah, I hear a story like this, and it's funny. I was talking to somebody the other day, and they said, you're going to think I'm crazy. I'm like, no, not at all. Because I— that's what I love about what I do. I get to talk to people like this all the time, and I'm real— I'm like, I'm here to tell you this, this kind of thing happens. And, you know, miracle children like Daisy do come about because you insisted on following your spiritual, you know, intuition.

Yeah, and I still do. I mean, nowhere on the level of Daisy. I think— I'm hoping that was my biggest lesson in this life, but In November 2019, I'd been umming and ahhing for about a year really about giving up nursing because I had this real realization I was a bit kooky to the average nurse. And it was a year on after Positive Change, the self-help book, came out. And I'd always had this niggling that I'd have a spiritual career. But in November 2019, it was so strong, literally like, get out kind of thing. By this point, they were kind of shouting at me, spirit world.. And I thought, oh, just that leap of faith, which I do quite often to scare my husband, leap of faith. I'm just going to have a go. So I left nursing with this real strong sense. And then, you know, January, February, we started to hear about this coronavirus and here we are. And I'm so glad I left. I mean, absolute love and gratitude to those that are still there on the frontline. But again, it was listening to my intuition. I thought, why now? You know, I've been debating for about a year about getting out and it was so strong. And I listened to it, got out, and thank goodness I did for me personally.

Yeah, it's important, I think, to listen to that. I do want to ask you though, because I've talked to several nurses, and this is a stereotype, but it seems to play out to be kind of true, where nurses will believe a lot of times in the spiritual. It's the doctors who don't. And I don't know if it's because of training or the doctors aren't there as often. But a lot of time nurses are the last ones there when a person is actually transitioning, and they see and hear things that other people don't. So do you find there's still pushback against that in the UK, against the spiritual?

Yeah, and it's been there for absolute decades. And it wasn't even— I can't remember what the name used to be, but it's like the nurses know, but now it is called like the nurses intuition. And I remember I was newly qualified and you're meant to be quite quiet. That's before I learned the lesson of speak your truth. I was already doing it. And I remember this doctor had started a patient on a new type of intravenous antibiotics. And I was like, yeah, I think we should call the family in. And he was like, no, absolutely not, we're changing the treatment, absolutely not. But I'm a bit feisty, so I called them in and they traveled from overseas. And she did, she died. I mean, they got there in time, but she actually— we're in the UK, they flew from Germany and they got there. And it's just like, it's just that intuition. The doctors will never have it because they're very Western medicine, you know. I mean, now it's getting a bit softer. We do— they might mention hypnotherapy for anxiety before surgery. And, you know, if you've got cancer, they didn't have these like holistic therapy units attached to them here. Now we can get sort of— I don't think you can get Reiki, but you can get massage and that. But still, the amount of times I absolutely defied these very strong personality doctors to call in family. And I was never wrong. Maybe I was just a jinx, Brian. But no, I like to think it's my intuition.

Oh, yeah. And again, I'm gonna— I know at least here that most of the nurses are women. And women do tend to seem to follow their intuition more. I don't know. I don't know what the reasons are. But it does seem like nurses generally believe more than the doctors, at least to hear. And so it's good to hear someone who's— who follows their intuition. And It's really good for people to hear this, you know, because again, I think especially in the West, we're like, we have to be rational about everything. So you say you're gonna do something, people ask you, well, what are your reasons for doing that? And what are your odds of success? And I find the people that tend to be most successful, if you want to call it, you know, I use that with air quotes, but the people tend to be happiest are people who do learn to follow their intuition. And they'll just say, I'm doing this because I feel like it's the right thing to do. And so many times, it turns out to be, you know, the right thing. So someone like your story can help reinforce our own belief and our own intuition.

Yeah, I honestly believe in it. I just think like, it's this inbuilt sat nav tells you where to go, you know, like if you're walking out at night, there's a dark alley and your intuition says don't go down there, then really don't go down there. Don't think I'm going to walk a little bit taller. You know, we've got this amazing safety mechanism within us. Why wouldn't we use it?

Well, you know, the thing, as you were saying, it reminded me, we do have— we talk about 5 senses, but I've actually heard biologists say we have more like 17 senses. We've got, we've got all these different senses, like sense of balance, sense of where we are, you know, spatially, stuff like that. And I believe we have what we would call intuitive senses. And again, this has been studied. People have taken in the lab and people have precognition, they can they'll show them images, and they can react to the image before they actually see it. Or something called remote viewing has been studied, where people can draw a place that they've never been. And this is not, quote, woo-woo stuff. This is stuff that's been studied. So we do seem to have a sense, sometimes a little bit of what's upcoming. We've all been sitting there, and we'll think of somebody, and then the phone will ring. And we'll say, you know, I was just thinking about you. And we, we write that off as coincidence. But Again, this has been— it's not, it's not coincidence. So I love that you're putting that out there for people to say, you know, start to trust your own intuition a little bit. And I've heard people, even with exercises, develop your intuition. I remember one guy was saying, like, if you're in an office building, there's a bank of elevators, see if you can figure out which one's going to open first. So we can exercise that just by playing little games with ourselves.

Yeah, I love that. Again, they're just so quick, aren't they? Busiest soul can do that in their daily routine.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Shelley, I want to tell people where they can reach you. What I want to remind them what your books are. This will be in the show notes, but I like to have it in the audio just in case people are listening while they're driving or walking or something.

Yeah, so I've got a website, which is shellyfnight.com. And over there, you can find the books and the podcasts, newsletter, any articles I've written. And then Good Grief: The A-Z Approach to Modern-Day Grief Healing is kind of everywhere, it seems. Amazon Kindle, Barnes Noble, online retailers, and that's out now.

Yeah, awesome. Well, it's been a pleasure getting to know you. Thanks for being on Grief 2 Growth. Any, any last thoughts before we leave you like to leave with the listeners?

No, other than just, you know, maybe after this show, or when you've done the school run, you know, just tap out 10 minutes every day just to sit, you know, get to know yourself a bit better, and allow whatever it is to come up.

I like that. Thanks. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you. Take care, Brian.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and will come back for future episodes. Brian D Smith's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of grief to growth. For more about Brian D Smith and grief to growth, Visit www.grief2growth.com.

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