Supernatural Love: Continuing a Marriage After Death | Pam Johnson’s Story EP 432

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. I'm Brian D Smith, and I want to welcome you to Grief 2 Growth. And whether this is your first time listening, or you've been with us for a while, I want to let you know this show is all about navigating life's toughest challenges, especially grief, and those experiencing those experiences as using those as stepping stones for personal growth, for deeper spiritual understanding and for transformation. Here we ask the big questions: Who are we? Why are we here? Where do we go when we leave this life? Today's episode is one I'm really excited about recording. I'm joined by Pam Johnson. Pam is an inspirational speaker, author, a healer, and a spiritual channeler whose life was forever changed in 2020 when her beloved husband Alan passed. But rather than that being an ending, their love story actually took on a new interdimensional form. Alan began to communicate with Pam telepathically. Setting her on a mission that's now helped hundreds reconnect with their loved ones across the veil. Since 2022, Pam has been teaching people how to continue these soul-level relationships, not through traditional mediumship, but through direct spirit communication. She's a passionate advocate for empowering everyday people to develop their own connection with the afterlife. We'll be diving into why these experiences are becoming more common, how grief may actually be rooted in false beliefs about separation, and how spiritual healing, more than psychic training, can raise our vibration enough to truly feel our loved ones again. Pam also offers insights into the pitfalls of relying solely on mediums, and why reclaiming your own spiritual sovereignty is key to healing and to reunion. So if you've ever wondered whether it's possible to not only hear from your loved one, but hug them again, this episode might just shift your perspective forever.. And remember, this isn't just a conversation between Pam and I, it's a community. So be sure to continue the discussion with us over at grief2growth.com/community, where you can listen to the episode, connect with other listeners, and share your experiences. So let's get into it. With that, I want to welcome Pam Johnson.

Wow. Hey, Brian D Smith. So great to be here. And yeah, this is, this is all I've been talking about, thinking about I eat, sleep, drink, breathe it, whatever, since my husband passed. And I just want to let everybody know that although, yes, I'm a channeler and I've been in this field practicing doing readings for like, at this point, 37 years, and my husband was a psychic medium, this doesn't mean you have to be a professional psychic to do this. You know, in fact, I've met mediums who struggle to continue their relationship across the veil, because it turns out it's all about spiritual development, not psychic development, like how clear you are in yourself, right? Do you have any fear, unprocessed trauma, limiting beliefs? All those things come to play. So my story in a nutshell is that, no, my husband died on his birthday. He had dementia. And so, and so in the latter stages, you know, he wasn't coherent. And he was seeing the other side. I knew that. And, and later, he came through a good friend of mine who's a medium. And she said that he went visiting, like, where he was gonna go, and, and, and took a tour of the afterlife to see, you know, where he was going to leave for. And he was excited, like, like, oh, I— this— he was thrilled because he was 83 when he died. And he was just tired of being old. That was what he would complain to me about probably the last 10 years of his life. Like, I hate being old. I'm tired of being old. And so he didn't wanna leave me, but he was done. So when he left, exited, you know, went to the other side. Mm-hmm. It didn't even occur to me that I might hear him. Like, I don't know why, because he, he's a natural born medium. Mm-hmm. And Spirit was always knocking on the door, you know, trying to get in during his readings to get through to a client. But he would actually try to shut the door because he didn't, he didn't really prefer doing mediumship because he never, oh, he just was not comfortable with the fact that as a medium, you're not in control. Like they don't always wanna come through. And so he didn't wanna disappoint clients, so he would rather do pure psychic readings and he was extraordinary with that. So he had a worldwide client base and, and he would just like to do readings, but nevertheless, You know, when you're a natural medium, they just come tapping on your shoulder. And so he would sometimes share a message. So when he passed though, I didn't, I never occurred to me like, oh, I'm gonna hear from him. I, I mean, really, I had no idea, but I immediately heard him in my head and he was putting, he put a song in my head the ver— the morning after he passed. And that song was the theme song from the movie Ghost, if you've seen that movie, right? Unchained Melody.

Oh yeah.

It's the, right? And it's the orchestral version. Cause that was the movie that we had seen together for the first time. That was our first movie together. So it kind of, kind of was a preordained thing, right? Like this is what's coming. And, and so he put that song in my head and it kept playing and I go, okay, I better go. I'm gonna go find that song on YouTube because I didn't own the song. So, and then I started hearing him. And he said, we're not done. I want to continue our marriage if, if you're open. And he was worried because in his own words, he says he had been a rather shitty husband. Because he had been, he wasn't abusive, but he was rather dissociated. And, and on our book, Supernatural Love, which that's the poster behind me, I go through the whole story of how he returned to me and gave me the title for our book, said we were gonna write a book that the book would help people open up to their loved ones on the other side. And it has done that. I've actually started my practice with working with people, teaching them through that book largely because people find their way to it. And then they reach out to me and they want to learn from us and not just me, Alan too. But in those early days, when he had just crossed over, I had to process a lot of my resentment, my buried anger, and I had no clue. I didn't realize that I was so resentful toward him for how he had rather been neglectful. And so I had to process all that. Took a while, but I knew he was with me and I didn't get as many signs as I see some of our students get. Some of their signs are just blow your socks off, you know, blow your socks off. But his was more subtle because probably because I am a channeler, so I could hear him. And I had to process my resentment. So what I've learned is that everybody's journey is different and cuz it depends on their partner on the other side. And, and Alan's taught me what that process is cuz he says every spirit on the other side is different in their ability to project through the veil, which makes sense because I've have met people whose partners, not, not only partners, but usually it's been partners who are so strong that they even come through physically, you know, like, like physical contact. And one of my students, she's still getting physical contact because you would think it would, it would fade because normally it will fade because in the initial stages, like the first months up to a year, year and a half, they have what I'd like to call more residual Earth energy to make things happen and make contact or even appear sometimes. Whether the person is clairvoyant or not, they, they can project strongly enough to be somewhat visible or even almost like 3D visible in some cases for a moment. But usually we need to raise our frequency. We need to open up, right, to be able to perceive them, because they eventually fully transition to the other side. And then that's when people think, like, what happened to my loved one? Like, I'm not getting signs anymore. Like, they used to give me signs. But it can very well be that, that they just fully transition. So it's not as easy for them to make things happen here. Right. And so if we learn to open up and develop ourselves spiritually, it's not about being psychic, because Come on, we're born psychic. We're, we're all souls and the soul is 100% psychic. It's just that we've been fed a lot of baloney about, you know, that's not real or you're not seeing things, you know, you're seeing things, you're crazy. And so people shut it down. But our natural state as children is to be completely intuitive and pick up on what's going on. And kids just aren't disconnected from that. Yet, and they haven't been told it's wrong or it's imaginary, right? They haven't had it programmed out of them, but this is our natural state. So what I tell people is you're born psychic is you really don't need to learn anything. A class can help, but you didn't, don't need to learn anything. You need to unlearn what you've been taught that has prevented you from accessing What is your true natural state? That's all it is. And so I see that with people as we start, like, take removing that, those layers of limiting beliefs, they, their frequency rises, they, they start trusting and believing and they're creating their relationship because it's a co-created thing. And this is what took me a while to understand, cuz I thought like a lot of people, like, well, you know, they're just gonna make things happen. Like if nothing's happening, it's, cause he's not making it happen, right? I used to blame Alan and go, why aren't you doing this for me? For me? And then I later realized, wait, I'm creating my experience in this reality. So why am I not letting it in? You know, why am I blocking it? And so I learned so much this journey that I swear I don't think most mediums understand because unless you've walked in that path, like you literally have learn and your partner's on the other side and they're teaching you. And Alan was a spiritual teacher when he was in a body. So, you know, it's, it's something most people are not going to figure out because you got to be kind of down in the trenches, but, but it's been the most extraordinary journey. He completely healed me of my resist, my resentment and my anger and my, I want to say pretty much everything. Like he woke me up to being who I fully am. Because he was able to love me unconditionally in a way that he could never have done when he was here in a body. He just couldn't. And, and so now I just feel his love wrapped around me all the time. But my main purpose for speaking with you and your audience here is to let people know, like, this is not some rare thing that only a few select people can experience. This is definitely a revolution of consciousness, an awakening. Grief can be an awakening of your soul. Okay. It's not about like picking up the telephone and saying, I'm going to talk to my, my partner or my loved one or my child or my sibling or my parent. Okay. It's not about that. You got to do the work. You got to identify what are your blocks? What are your limiting beliefs? You've got to love yourself unconditionally. As they love you unconditionally. But here's the good news. Their love for us, as we let it in and connect with us, right? It will help us evolve. It's going to help us evolve. It's going to be a process though, because that love is gonna illuminate and bring to the surface what doesn't match it. So this is where my program comes in, where I work with people and I coach people. I have a group coaching program and I work with people and teach on this subject and show them how you, you just have to identify like, what is your limiting belief and, and let it go. But the more you let the love in and let the transformation process unfold, you know, you actually start not only being able to perceive your loved one in whatever way they're able to come through, but your life gets better because you step into being who you truly are. Because most people are not doing that. Most people are living this tiny, scanty portion of who they truly are because they're burdened with all these limiting beliefs that they took on from their parents, from their friends, from society, from teachers, right? And they have no clue. Like, they're walking around with these beliefs that define them. That weigh them down because beliefs that don't belong to us feel like burdens and they don't understand, like, wait, I'm here to be my true authentic self, which may mean I've got to unload these beliefs that I took on from my parents. I can still love them, but I don't have to align with their beliefs if those beliefs don't match my authentic self. So, so it's been just like one thing after another. It's always getting stronger. Um, I find that the people I work with, if they open up to this, their intuition just starts coming in. And most of all, they feel the presence of their loved one on some form. And it's very healing and comforting. And, and most importantly, they just start being comfortable just being who they are, because that's really our purpose for being here. It's if we accomplish some great goal, right? That's fine. That, that, but that's not the purpose of existence. The purpose of existence, as the other side has told me, is to be your true self. Because when you are your true self and you're, you're aligned with your higher guidance and you're living authentically, then you're on your path. And then whatever you do is serving other people because the greatest gift is your own vibration that's aligned and whole and just connected with love, right? So, so this is why I kind of try to help people see that grief is this opportunity of awakening. Of becoming whole again and becoming you, the real you, that chances are people aren't being. And if they are being the real them, then they don't even need me, right? And they can probably, like, connect with the other side, and they're living a life of abundance and fulfillment, and they have harmonious relationships with people. So they don't, they don't need me. But I would say most people do need, need this or something like it, right, to, to evolve, to go to the next level. And, and I believe the time we're living in, yeah, it's very chaotic. It's, it's a time of crisis, but always in the times of crisis, there's always transformation because this is how it works. And I was, as I was telling you earlier, before we started our, our call here, our meeting here, you know, the spirit world always comes through stronger when the planet is in crisis. And mediums know this. And the last time they really came knocking on the door and made themselves known was, if you remember, back in the 1900s with the Fox sisters in New York, and they started hearing the raps and taps on the wall. And, and that launched the spiritualist movement right now. You, you could, you could question whether they were real, authentic, whatever. There was a whole controversy about that, but there's always been controversy about mediumship. But you can't deny the fact that from then on, spiritualism started to grow. And it really took hold, especially in, in England where Alan was from. He was born in the slums of London and was always a natural born medium and felt spirits around him. But the spiritualist movement happened according to their side because they knew that we would need help. And they said that they always do that when we really need help. And I think this is what's happening now because I've been meeting what I would call ordinary people who have maybe, in some cases, have no interest in spirituality. You know, they're just living their, life. Like, I met a woman who is hardcore Christian. And she started feeling her husband around her. And he was like, like touching her. And she was freaking out going, what the— because it completely contradicted her belief. But she knew it was real. And she knew it was him. And it was undeniable to her, right? So she had to reconcile that, like, how, how can this be? And she finally had to agree, like, This is real. And I feel his love and I feel his presence. So that, you see, just woke her up because she, she just said, this is real. I know I'm not crazy. Yeah. But that said, that's not uncommon for people to reach out to me and say, I have all these things happening and I thought I was crazy. Thank God I found your book because I realized the same thing's happening to you. And then they meet other people through me in our community who are having the same thing, right? All different, different experiences, but still the same theme of connection. And they realize, I'm not crazy. This is real. This is extraordinary. I must have signed up for it because, you know, whatever happens to us is an orchestration of our soul, of our higher self. So there are no accidents. So I just see this fascinating because when I wrote our book, I thought, oh, well, I'm probably like the only one having this, you know, because Cause I didn't know anybody besides me. I just said, I knew Alan said, let's write the book. We're gonna help other people. And I thought, okay, we'll help other people do this. But I didn't think other people were already experiencing it. I had no clue. He didn't tell me that. He just said, we're gonna help other people who wanna continue their relationships. So when people started finding me and saying, telling me their stories, I said, oh my God, like this is happening to a lot of people. Like, why isn't anybody talking about this?

Right.

You know, and I find that really fascinating. And after, after reaching out to other spiritual teachers or podcasters or whatever, and I've been on several podcasts, but, but what I see, cuz you know, I'm intuitive so I can read them. What I see is unless you've lost someone like, like you have, like of course your audience has. You don't really, that doesn't really interest you, right? It's like, oh yeah, that sounds interesting, whatever. Like, it's only somebody who's mired in grief who longs for connection that their ear's gonna perk up, right? And I understand it. That's completely normal.

Mm-hmm.

Right. But also spiritual teachers, especially mediums, they're very biased. They, they have their, and this is what Alan told me from the beginning. He said, you're going to experience resistance. From mediums. And I had one of my good friends who's an amazing medium. She said the same thing. She goes, you're not gonna find resistance from the general public, or like, like they're gonna be like, oh, interesting. I wanna hear about it. She says, you're gonna get pushback from mediums because they don't want you encroaching on their turf. And they don't want people running off going, well, I've not talked to a medium. I'm gonna talk to my loved one myself. And if they can't teach them how to make that contact, then why would the medium even necessarily want to encourage that, right? Because if they told their client that, the client would say, well, can you help me? And maybe the medium can, maybe they can't, right? So I said, really, we're going to have, you know, resistance from them. And, and he announced that, yes, you need to be prepared for that. It won't be bad. It's just part of the journey. You know, because whenever somebody's doing something that hasn't been done before, there's going to be pushback and people who don't like things to change. So, so, and I don't care cuz I, I told him, all right. He and I were always used to doing our own thing, not caring what other people thought about it. You know, we always kind of lived in our own lane pretty much and weren't out there mingling with other spiritual teachers. Although I met many of them, I'm just like, no, I'm doing my own thing. Doing my own thing. And I'm still doing my own thing. And I'm just here to serve, to serve people, to serve humanity, because I know this is, you know, my mission and my mission with Alan. But he actively helps on the other side, the loved ones of our students. And our students, by the way, are not just couples. I have people in my, my Supernatural Love Academy who are parents connecting with a child, an adult child. I have siblings connecting with each other. I have a couple like that. I have people that are just learning with me because they want to grow spiritually. They don't even have someone on their side, although I had one, one student say, well, I, if I'm studying with you, I know that when the day comes that somebody I love crosses over, I'll be good to go. Because you've already helped me lay the foundation. I said, okay, that's good. Be proactive. Right? So it's across the board, like all kinds of people. And I don't think there's any prequalification to have this experience except the desire to embrace it and be willing to change, to be willing to identify what limiting beliefs you may have and say, all right, I want to change that, let that go. And And I have a lot of processes that I'm coming up with now that we're going to teach more to help people make that shift, especially because now the energy is so dense on the planet with everything going on here. We're talking in April of 2025, putting a marker there saying like, oh, what's going on in the world economy? What's going on politically? And hopefully 5 years from now, I know things will be very different, but right now it's very chaotic. So I want to help people hold steady through this time of chaos because I know we can, and I know the other side wants to help us. And that's all I care about, is just being of service. And so I'm passionate about it. This is all I do. I would teach every day if I was physically able to. I kind of already do, like at least a couple times a week. But yeah, I mean, is there any question you have? I know that you told me that, you know, someone you care about has— and that you lost a dear friend.

And yeah, yeah, that is on my mind as we go through today's recording. This in April, I have a good friend who passed away just suddenly last Monday. And we're recording this in April. And his wife and, or, you know, there, there's a couple, our friend, we're really, we're really close. And my, my friend's like, you know, this, they're, they're coming up to the 30th wedding anniversary and this has been, you know, a lifelong thing, 60 years old, you know, they've been together half their lives. And, you know, there's a thing when people, when we have a partner transition, you were saying before we started recording, people are like, okay, well, you can move on. You can find somebody else. Your partner wants you to find somebody else.. And I know that's okay for some people, but for other people, they're like, I, I want to continue this relationship. And so what we, what I like to do is be here for people that, that have that. Now, I want to do, I want to clarify some things because we're using some language that might be confusing to people. We talked about limiting beliefs. Can you give us some examples of what those might be that people are carrying that are kind of, uh, keeping them from making this connection? Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss. And still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become. A place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Okay, yeah, good, good, good question. So limiting belief is just belief that limits you, holds you back. Right. And it will depend. You're free to choose whatever beliefs you prefer. So ideally, we choose beliefs that will support us, that will empower us. Right. Will help us. But literally, you can choose to believe anything because you and I are made in the image of the creator of Source, all that is, whatever you want to call it. You don't have to say God. You can say God, but there's a grander consciousness that we're part of. Right. So our beliefs, our thoughts are what manifest and create our world. They actually take form. People who journey out of body have reported that they can see that, like, thoughts people have become dense, they become crystallized, and then they happen in our life. Right. So a limiting belief when it comes to life after death or connecting to someone on the other side would, could be, well, only mediums can talk to the dead, for example, or, or I have to let my loved one go. This, this belief is held by a lot of world-famous mediums. By the way, I had one of my clients come to me frantically, and she's, she's a very good medium herself, but she was told by a famous medium, I'm not gonna say person's name, his name. And she was shocked because he told her she needed to let her husband go. Now, her husband had been making himself very visible to her, very evident to her, right? And she wanted to pursue this. So she was crushed because she thought, do I really need to let him go? Am I just mistaken? And I said to her, because I was just translating what Alan was saying, and Alan says, Don't put all stock on just because this person is famous that they know everything. He says they don't necessarily because they're just mouthing to you what they were trained and what they believe. So if they believe that, cuz again, you're free to choose to believe whatever you want. They believe that, then that's the reality they're going to create. And most mediums have been taught that. He knows cuz he was trained as a medium. So he said, now some of them are more open-minded. So not saying all of them think this way, but he's saying many times those that have been in the field for a long time that are again famous, well established, they're just very fixed in their views because they, and he says he sees a lot of ego in the mediumship community. And, uh, and I would have to say that's true. There are some amazing mediums. Again, I'm not bashing all mediums. People always get mad at me and say, you're so negative about mediums. I go, um, I'm negative about the mediums who don't know what they're talking about or who are making up stuff and hurting people. Yeah. But most of them are good people and most of them, you know, are doing their best. I'm just trying to tell the truth so that the people that are getting the readings don't get devastated. Because I'll tell you, this is what breaks my heart. Some of those people, cuz I've I've seen this happen and I'm almost getting emotional here. Some of them will take their life. Mm-hmm. And I've known people who've done that after a bad reading.

Yeah.

Just takes one bad reading, some medium saying your husband wants you to move on, and that person will walk out the door and take their life. I've known this to happen. And so I don't care if people tell me that I'm bashing on mediums. I don't care as long as it saves somebody's life. Because that's all that matters. Not like, oh, I hurt their feelings, like, or hurt them. But anyway, that's what limiting belief might be, right? Like, I can't do this. I have to become, I have to take mediumship training. No, you don't. I have had several students of mine take mediumship training from one well-known medium who I adore, and it didn't really help them. It didn't help them. Okay. Because they had to dig down and say, okay, what, what am I res— am I still resentful? They didn't do any emotional work. 'Cause most mediumship training doesn't do that. They'll tell you, you need to work, you need to heal your trauma, or you need to heal yourself, but they don't help you do it.

Mm-hmm.

It's like easy to tell people, oh, you need to, you know, process your trauma. And person will go, okay, like, if I knew how to do that, I would've done it already.

Right.

Like, can you help me with it? Oh no. Just go, go figure it out. Right? That's what most psychic development teachers will do because they, they're not healers. Well, they might be, but maybe they don't. Unless they don't have an Alan on the other side. Yeah. Because he's helping their partner. And I've had people even tell me, like, some of my students would go to a medium and the medium would say, who is this Alan guy on the other side? Who's with your loved one? Yeah. Or, or what's going on? And, and so get confirmation that he's working with them. And I've even heard mediums say, yes, the spirits on the other side don't all learn, know how to project. That's something that they need to learn. So Alanis said he holds a class over there. I know it sounds really wild, right? Like to the average person out there, like what? Are you kidding? But he said, yeah, he says they have to learn and they're all at different levels because as souls we're all, you know, at different levels, aren't we? We are not like all enlightened when we cross over. So, so that's what I mean. Like you have to identify like, uh, uh, why do I believe that? Or why do I believe the afterlife isn't real? Um, because you have to trace it back. Like where, where did that come from? Like, where'd it come from? And I tell people, you want evidence of the afterlife, then just, just be open and say, okay, I'm gonna explore it. Like, what harm is gonna come to you? But if you're afraid, then okay, you have a limiting belief that something about this is scary. So you may have to dig deep and go, where did that come from? Right? Like, was it from childhood? Was it my parents? Like, I've worked with one woman, because I have a process called the Bridge to Heaven, where I actually guide people to make contact. In the session. And, and only two kinds of people don't make contact. One is a person who, um, is very controlling. They try to control the old spirit and then I go, that can't get them to let go of control. The other one is somebody who's very fearful. So this gal that I was working with, we, we, we were making a little bit of headway and we finally identified that she was terrified of the other side. And I said, okay, why? She says, oh, when I was a little girl, and I think she was from like Southeast Asia, she said her mother would say, if you're bad, you know, the spirit under your bed's gonna get you, something like that. And she forgot about it. And she goes, oh yeah, I think I'm really scared of what, what I might be opening up to. And I said, well, all right, we have to clear that first because again, that's her limiting belief, right? Like, okay, I'm scared of the other side, but she wasn't consciously aware of it until we kind of worked it deeper and go, where's this coming from? Do you remember? Yeah, my mom used to like try to control me by saying this being under the bed was gonna get her if she didn't behave. How crazy is that? Right? So that's an example. Does that answer your question?

Yeah. Well, you know, it's, it's funny you say it sounds a little bit crazy, but, um, and then the thing I was thinking about is religion.— and I think you touched on this earlier— religion can be a limiting belief. We've been taught, yeah, yeah, do not speak to the dead, you know, do not consult with mediums. Um, so I'm sure you've run across that.

Absolutely, absolutely. But we have to remember, like, right now, thankfully, we're living in an age where the truth is coming out, where people are beginning to realize, wait, religion— religions were always in place to control people. It's all been about power and control. May started off with good intention, like many things do. Of course, Jesus had good intentions, right? But from what I understand, Jesus didn't want them to make a church. Right. Right. He wanted them to go share the good news. Right.

Exactly.

Like, go work with the people. It's not like, go build me a church and then collect all the money. It's like, it's humans that interjected that.

Right.

So people are being understand that, wait, you know, some of these beliefs didn't, didn't come from God because this was cracks me up. People say, well, I don't know that what you're talking about or is channeled or, or this person is channeling this other thing. And I go, what do you think the Bible was? Do you think all that information just landed here?

Yeah.

Untouched. Through a human consciousness? Do you think that the human consciousness at the time of Jesus was so evolved that they could just purely bring it through? You are living in a fantasy world. You know, it's, it, you don't know what parts are accurate or not. Alan and I studied with Willard Fuller, Reverend Willard Fuller. He's long passed, but he used to do these teeth healings. Really fascinating. And he believed that, that, that, you know, Christ's power, God's power should be able to be demonstrated. So it would show that you could change somebody's healing from, you know, metal to gold. And he did that. And we— I was guided to study with him. We went all the way to the Lloyd, Florida, and, and studied with him for 5 days. And just, he just taught about the Bible, like the true perspective. And he'd have people coming to study with him from all over the world. So we we were in this class in his home, and he just taught us and, and said how so much of the Bible has just been misinterpreted, you know. And he was a beautiful soul, beautiful man. So I, I got to understand what it was really about. But yeah, but most people don't get that different preachers maybe, or different religious groups, right, that, that they just co-opted what works for them. And, and again, it's about money and power and control. Yeah. And, and, and they not saying they don't good, good work at the same time, but, but that's the human condition, isn't it? Like, it's not all bad and all good because we are here to experience the contrast.

Right.

So you and I will make mistakes and we will hurt people unintentionally, hopefully. Right. And then we'll be hurt and we realize, wait, I came into this world to experience that contrast because I can't not experience it on the other side where there's only love. But in the contrast, we get to learn. And one of the most powerful ways to learn what love is, is to experience what love is not, right? What is the absence of it? Or one way to really supercharge your own self-love is to have it denied you. Which sounds like a, like a paradox. Like, wait, like, so if somebody doesn't love you, you're gonna learn to love yourself? Well, yeah, because you're now relying only on you. Like, I don't care if they don't love me. I love me. Mm-hmm. You know, that's all that matters.

Mm-hmm.

I love myself because as I'm sure you and I understand, the whole world could love you, but if you don't love yourself, It doesn't mean anything, right? Because love is an eternal internal experience that then is externally reflected back to us because reality is constructed that way to mirror back to us what we believe inside our heart. So it doesn't matter. All these people saying, I love you, I love you. And you go, you just think, well, they're lying. I fooled them. Like they don't know the real me. If they did know the real me, they wouldn't love me. All of those limiting beliefs, that negative self-talk, right? The, um, some people's self-concept is really low. Like they just, they just don't, they don't believe in their value. So, uh, so I, my heart goes out to you and your friend's wife who, you know, just lost her husband. I was, Alan and I were married about 30 years. And so I understand that he died when he was 83, but there's a 15-year difference between us. So I'm gonna be 73 this year. And I've already told the universe, I warned our son, I go, I want to pass on my 83rd birthday like your father did. Oh, wow. I don't know if that's going to happen, you know, but I said to, already told our son, just have a big party for me, okay? Because I know when I'm going home, I'm going to be having a great, huge celebration. So, yeah, but I'm not in a hurry to go because I know I'm not done yet.

So when you're— what's your relationship with, like, like with Alan now? Because people, I think, you know, we have— we, we know people in the physical, right? We know, we know bodies and stuff like that. And it's really difficult when, when someone's passed on, left their body, and you say, okay, well, now you can form a new relationship. What does that look like? What is it?

Okay, good question.

Talk to him.

I mean, good question. So again, every couple's relationship. And when I say couple, I don't just mean husband, partner, kind. Okay. I mean, like, sibling, like any two people, right? So every relationship is unique. And so I always tell the people I work with, like, do not compare. You cannot compare. You are unique. Your, let's say, frequency is unique, right? Your ability, your spiritual abilities or whatever they are, you know, and all that can be developed. But you are who you are right now. And then your loved one on the other side, they are who they are right there, right? So some of them, like I said, came through strongly to their loved one. And, and diff— but they're all different. Like I've had, I've had people in my academy, and mostly the ones that are having this really intense, um, physical contact, uh, are partners, like spouses. But like physi— I mean, physical contact, some of them are having. Mm-hmm. A lot of times it's energetic, like undeniable, like you get chills or heat or pressure or tingles or, um, I've had people feel like their arm wrapped around them. Mm-hmm. Um, sometimes many of them are starting to see their loved one, like clairvoyantly, like maybe for a moment. I've had people say they see them like 3D for a moment. I've seen Alan. Holographically on occasion, but I see him clairvoyantly primarily. Like, I just see him. I just know that's him. And, and it's funny how he presents because he'll look so crazy. I'll go, I know I'm not imagining that because why would I imagine you that way? And I also know that the physical mind doesn't make these, these things up. Not that way. Okay. And, and I help people understand that your imagination is actually the doorway to the other side. So you need to use it because it's not going to happen through your physical, logical mind. If I told you to imagine, for example, for you to imagine your friend who passed, okay, that would be you deliberately using your mind to do it, right? Like you'd like remember a memory of him, right? So that's you. You're creating it. Absolutely. But if you were, I don't know, watching TV or brushing your teeth or something, and he flashes in your mind, right? You're not thinking of him. It's just like you get an image of him in your mind, right? That's him. Because they can easily project that way, and they do. And if he's around you, you're going to pick up on it because most of us are opening up and becoming more sensitive without even trying. And so people are having these experiences, and then they shrug it off. They go, oh, that's weird. I wonder what that was, right? But you, I know, would be more open and aware and say, oh, maybe that's him. Right? And what I tell people is, if that happens, if you can stop what you're doing and connect, it's like they came knocking on the door going, hi, I'm here. Like, when you go, oh, okay, what's going on? Or just at least feel them, right? Do whatever you feel your imagination, which is your guidance, What does your imagination tell you to do? Oh, I think I'm just going to tune in and just feel this energy. Oh, I think I'm going to ask a question. Whatever. It doesn't matter. What matters is that you don't let that fleeting moment slip through your fingers and just shrug it off and go, that's just strange. Because that's like closing the door to them. Not that they're going to get upset because people always tell me, oh my God, is he mad at me because I'm not paying attention? I go, no. They know that our world that we're living in is People are so distracted. They understand it. You know, there's only love for us, but they're like, ah, like she's not listening to me.

Yeah.

Or I try to get through and she's just thinking it's, she's making it up. And I'll say to them, but that's not what your logical mind does. Unless you're a person, and I know there are people like this who just constantly like thinking and, and, you know, but most people are not like that. There, there are times when they quiet down, right? Again, like when they brush their teeth or wash dishes or something.

Right.

And, and so pay attention when those things happen. Those are golden moments, opportunities that you wanna miss. So I teach people, coach people on this, and they start paying attention and they go, oh yeah, I, I felt my partner, I felt my sister, whatever. And, and then it builds because now you're saying yes to the other side instead of this is weird, which closes the door. And it gets stronger. And I tell people, don't take this the wrong way, everybody, because you think, a lot of people think, you know, you're crazy making this up. But you want contact, you got to go all in. And be delusional. Be delusional. That doesn't mean you're crazy. When you say, be delusional, when I say be delusional, I mean say, I hear you, I feel you, like, even if it's not happening yet, like you affirm it. So I'm a big believer in affirmations and just affirming it because your words create. So if you have doubt, that's okay. Just affirm the positive because eventually your words of positivity, the words that affirm your connection and their existence will get stronger. Because here's the thing that people don't realize, because you and I are souls and we are made of love. When we affirm positivity like that, like I am loved and I still have connection with my loved one, that is the truth anyway. Yeah. So the truth is actually easier to manifest. If you're trying to manifest from your, because people do manifest negatively from their fear. Okay. You can do that too.

Sure.

But because that's not really you, that, that actually, you know, falls apart. Unless you keep being negative. But the universe backs you up on whatever you choose to believe. If you choose to believe negatively, you're going to get the negative. You choose to believe positively, you get the positive. Whatever you believe, it's like the universe says, yes, yes, yes. So why not say yes to connection, to your evolution, to, you know, you stepping into being the love that you are? Why not say yes to what you want? Instead of what you don't want.

Yeah. So yeah, I like to share a little bit about what you just said because for me, um, you know, Shayna's— it'll be 10 years in June since Shayna passed. And for the first several years, people talk about connection and people would ask me, do you get a connection with your daughter and stuff like that? And I thought, okay, well, no, I don't, I don't feel her touch me. I don't, you know, I don't hear her voice. I have had a couple of dream visits And then I did do a little bit of mediumship training. And I realized a lot of it is, it feels like you're using your imagination. We do these exercises, they would say, connect with, you know, so-and-so. And I would just make something up. And they're like, oh, yeah, that happens to be right. And I'm like, oh, so that's what it feels like. And so for me, with Shane, it's kind of like you said, you know, the picture you see behind me is actually, we have one in our foyer, the exact same picture. And when I open the bedroom door in the morning, it's the first thing I see. And I say good morning to her. And so she's part of, you know, I make her a part of my life. And so that's the way that, that we continue our relationship. And as you said, you know, I hear other people say, again, I got my loved one touches me or something like, and I don't get that. And that's okay. You know, ours is different.

Yeah. Yeah. Your relationship is going to be unique for you. And so everybody's staying in touch in whatever way works. And, and it can also evolve. You know, it can, it can shift because I've worked with people who had minimal contact, or some, and then it just gets stronger. Because, you know, always growing and evolving. So I tell— I, what I teach is that whatever you're experiencing right now is perfect for you. And embrace it that way. Because if you just say, this is great, this is perfect, it will actually keep evolving if it is that's part of your life theme, right? Meaning like you're here to explore certain things in this life, right? So for some of the— I would say for most of the people that I work with, it's clear to me that one of their themes or soul agreements is to continue that relationship for their evolution. You know, not just to heal their grief, not just to continue relationship. I mean, that, Alan says, is kind of like the carrot dangling in front of us, like, come here, come right this way, you're gonna re— reunite with your loved one. And it's beautiful. And you can have that. But really what the, the big picture is, it's about the person's growth as a soul, because that's why we're here. Because remember, on the other side, we always return home and we're actually there with them in the spirit world because a larger part of us remains nonphysically focused. That's what Abraham Hicks Brian D Smith talks about all the time, right? The greater part of you is always in the spirit world. Only a tiny part of you is here in this body, in this life. You're living in other parallel lives at the same time because everything's happening here and now.

Mm-hmm.

That's why I teach a lot about the nature of existence in my classes, because people understand the nature of reality, then it's easier for them to understand, okay, then I can connect. With my loved one because I am already connected.

Right.

I'm just thinking that there's some big gap, right? That they went somewhere far away when, no, I'm sorry, everything is right here. Enfolded, like realities are all, like, entwined. Right? And, and it's a question of you shifting your frequency closer to theirs. That's all it is. It's not like they're on the other side of the universe. Like, the universe is right here. So, so, so yeah, it's, but whatever the relationship is, is perfect. So maybe for you, and I'm just saying maybe, maybe your, your daughter, I would say, Valen's saying absolutely, your daughter's passing was a catalyst for your growth and to be of service.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, you know, you can have, if that's what both of you, cuz remember it's co-created, right? Mm-hmm. Like, what is the agreement? Um, it can be, it can go deeper. It can go. Who knows?

Yeah.

Like, there's no limit. It's like up to you and her. Um, he's saying that— he's saying she's happy, so thrilled with what you've done so far and that you include her in your life, right? Like, my, my dear, dear friend of ours, her daughter passed at age 7. She had been born completely disabled, like on a breathing tube, and, and, and couldn't walk or talk or anything. I don't remember her condition. But, you know, she would— she had led that life for 7 years, but she taught her family so much about compassion and about intuition, because her mother had to connect with her psychically, right, to understand what her— to meet her daughter. So when the daughter passed, she's like so much a part of their life. Like when they go out, they constantly see signs. They're— the siblings like hear their sister like she's watching out for them, like she's talking to them. So, you know, that was their path. That was their journey. But they know she's alive and she's very much evident and they're so happy that she can engage in life because she wasn't able to when she was in a body. Yeah. She couldn't ever get outta bed and she couldn't open her eyes, you know? So what an extraordinary experience and journey they went on. So I try to help people to see that, you know, that was that soul plan, right, was to have this experience and not look at it like it's such a tragedy, because clearly her daughter, and I know her daughter, Alanis, is on the other side, her daughter's a highly evolved soul. So she took on this harsh kind of assignment, so to speak, right? And many people do that. They, they're in situations in this life where it went outer, you know, view of it be like, oh my God, that's so terrible, you know, so hard, right? But it was chosen. Yeah.

Well, you're interesting. So we're saying this, we're starting to figure this out about autistic people. And this has become a big thing. It's become especially in my life, because I keep— I had this series of things, things come, things come along with my podcast. I interviewed 3 people, like, almost in a row who were involved with autistic people. One, two were mothers, and one was a teacher who was, who was teaching a boy who was minimally verbal. And then, you know, so this came about, and then it's this podcast blew up called The Telepathy Tapes, and everybody's talking about The Telepathy Tapes now. And these autistic kids are just, like, displaying amazing abilities. And so I'm, I'm hoping that's really going to wake the world up to, like, like you said, people who are differently abled, not disabled, but they're differently abled, are, I think, here a lot of times to teach us and help us to understand that, you know, we are much more than just what our bodies are.

Yeah, that was what was happening with my, my friend's daughter. She was telepathically just talking to her because we're consciousness. Consciousness isn't limited to a body or even a vocal body, right? A voice, like, like It's, we're mind to mind. And on the other side, we don't even have names because you know who everybody is. You just know, you know what you know. And Alanis says, it's not even like you talk to each other like we talk here. He says, it's like you just have these conversations that are all like just consciousness, right? You don't have to go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so a lot of times I tell people, just be aware that your loved one sometimes is just talking to you more in that way, more through emotion. More through just giving you the knowing of what they're trying to say. So, so they can talk like you and I are talking. Yeah. And I hear Alan like that a lot of times, but they also talk in all these nonverbal ways. So my experience of him is actually not as physical as some of my students. Some of my students, I just like, whoa, I blow my mind. I look at, I hear them and they go, well, I, what you're having. But I'm happy with what I'm having, because I know it's perfect for me. But some of them, you know, their partners are every day extraordinary, like signs, like writing things in the carpet. Yeah, like, drawing a heart in the carpet, and reaching out to other loved ones in other ways too, that are close to this person and making themselves very visible to everybody. And so, but everyone's different. Like I said, other people, it's like they just know they're there. They feel them. Some people hear them. Some hear them like in their own voice. Most of the time though, it's more like a dialogue going on in your head that you get used to because they're communicating with the same personality and using the same words most of the time, right? So, so you'd go, oh, of course that's you. Like, that's the way you talk. And here's the funny thing I'll share with you, because people will say, yeah, I hear him talking to me and he's saying whatever he's saying, but that's what he would always say. Yeah. So how do I know I'm not making it up? And then I'll say, but think of it this way, though. If he were to say to you something that he would never have said before, it was really different. You'd probably tell me, oh, that can't be him because he doesn't talk like that.

Right, exactly.

And so I heard Alan going, see, we can't win.

Exactly.

Like you guys like are not, are gonna, are gonna look for a problem. Like, oh, this, of course that's you. Or no, that can't be you. Right. It's like, so he says they'll try like a little bit of all of it, but in the end it comes down to what I tell people is focus on, do you feel their love? This is what I do my best to open up people with first, because feelings don't lie. Right. So, and just yesterday for Easter, I taught this workshop. Well, I'm gonna workshop— it's more like a healing circle, because the other side asked me to for Easter, since that's appropriate timing, right? Resurrection, that we don't die, Christ has risen and all that, and our loved ones have risen. Ellen says, well, we didn't have to rise, we're already here, like, whatever. But so we did a healing, and I brought in the other side. And, and cuz they said, we, it's not about our messages. It said, we want them to feel our presence and our love because experience is what heals you and changes you. Not ideas, not words. Sure, you like to have the message because it gives you some info, but the information alone is not enough. Right? So, so they were always telling me that I was to channel, bring them in. The angels were helping come in and helping loved ones come in. And so people yesterday were just like saying, I just— they were flooded with love. They felt their loved ones, many of them saw them and all these things. And, and I like to teach groups because the energy is stronger when we're concentrated, when we're all together, when the other side is coming together as a group, and we're gathered as a group, right? So that video I am going to release on my YouTube channel at some point. But people were feeling it, and it stays with you, and you can't deny that. You can't go, oh, I was making that up. Yeah. Because you feel like these waves of love, right? Or goosebumps. And afterwards, you're elevated, and you're just feeling high, and your frequency, you know, you've shifted. That's what our work is primarily about, because I am teaching information just to lay the foundation, because I've studied this for 37 years. And I've been working with people to help them evolve spiritually anyway, for all that time. But now it's, you know, it's more targeted to help people connect to the other side, but also to their guides and angels, you know, because I know from my experience, the way I awakened my abilities was through channeling my guides. And it wasn't until later I understood that when you channel the spirit world, you're connecting with fifth dimensional energy, which you're part of, and that's going to help you open up. Okay. But, but the part of the journey is whatever limiting beliefs you have, here's that word again, is gonna come to the surface because love is like the great detoxifier. Like whatever doesn't match, it starts to come to surface. You go, oh, I've got all this anger. Oh, I've got all this judgment. Oh, I've got this self-hatred or whatever, right? It starts to illuminate it. And I've heard other channelers say the same thing, like Lee Harris. He spoke about that. This is a while ago. The channeling process starts triggering things and people need to understand that. Like you wanna get it out, better out than in, right? Like this is toxic. You wanna get it out. Because then your energy is clearer and you not only have an easier time connecting, you're going to be happier because now you're more, again, the authentic, true you. So this is all a journey. But they're wanting to help. And they said to me from the beginning, they go, people are so fixated on, I want that message or I want the proof. How about if the proof is love? Because isn't love the all that's important? Isn't that the only reality? You cannot conjure this feeling of loving connection because if you could, then everybody would just sit around going, snap their fingers and conjure it. No, it's a co-created thing. When you're the one that feels like kind of lost.

Yeah.

Because you don't have it. You're kind of pinched off a bit from your beliefs. But if you open up to them and they meet you and you meet them halfway with your imagination, that's what I tell people. You wanna reach the other side, reach through the hallway of your imagination, reach for them halfway. Because otherwise you're sitting here in the 3D world where you and I are right now, right? Physical world. And they have to work harder.

Yeah.

Because yeah, they can come down here, but it's harder, right? So if we reach halfway about, you know, because we're trusting what we see and experience that just happens just naturally. We trust what we're feeling, knowing, hearing, and we let them in, then they don't have to work as hard. So I encourage our students to always use your imagination. In fact, I give them like exercises to do and, and they start to see progress. Because they don't never, they were told that their imagination was just fantasy. And I go, no, that's your superpower. That's how you create your world. Mm-hmm. Use it.

Yeah.

Use it or lose it. Because if you're not using your imagination for what it was created for, then you are stuck in this world. You don't have access to the other side. Because like you said, you did reading and it felt like you're making it up. Well, that is how you do it. It feels like you're making it up. Yeah. I work with people all the time. I go, just make it up. Just go in, pretend you're doing a reading and make it up and have fun with it. And they do that and they go, oh my God, like everything I said was— the person said was right. Yeah.

Yeah.

Because you're in the imagination hallway where all the things just come because intuition is about just letting it in. It's not like reaching for it, trying for it, right? That's the physical mind.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. It's good. The higher self, higher mind is like, well, I'm just gonna allow it to drop into my awareness. Mm-hmm. So it feels like you're making it up. Yeah. But you're going, okay, so if I did know about this person, what might that be? If you ask the universe that question, you're gonna know right away because the universe is interactive. And you go, oh, I think they're like this, or I see this symbol, or I'm hearing this, right? Mm-hmm. And if you just start letting it flow, it's, it's the most amazing thing. What, 'cause I've taught psychic development for years and one of my students was saying, yeah, it's kind of like you, the people that are brand new who haven't learned to distrust yet, they're just, 'cause you, they say, I'll just make it up. They, she goes, they score a bullseye all the time. Like, because they're just like having fun. Yeah, that's the energy you bring to it. But the minute some people turn professional, now they go, okay, I got it. They're paying me money and I hope I can do it. Now they're trying too hard and now they're kind of missing the target because it's not about trying and it's about just kind of being light and just trusting whatever. Because how many times have I given information to people and they'd go, well, I don't know about that, like I told this one woman, I was just talking to her when I was working in the retail store, a New Age store that I worked at a long time ago. And I was talking to this woman, and I could feel her husband around her, I mean, her father around her. And he had passed. And I said, oh, did your father wear baseball caps? And toward, you know, toward the end of his life? She goes, oh no, like, I know what you're talking about, right? She just— I go, whatever, I know what I saw. And it's so funny, because she called on the phone later. Said, I need to talk to Pam. And I go, oh, hi. Yes, I remember you, Mary. Like, how are you? She goes, I just need to tell you, I forgot my dad had cancer and at the end of his life he was wearing baseball caps all the time.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I just said, I saw it fleetingly in my mind, right? And I said, I could feel it was him. And I, that's what it is. It's like just trusting what comes, cuz he clearly just wanted her to know, hey, I'm here.

Yeah.

No other message. And she at first said, no, I can't accept that. And, and so Alan has always said to me, just say what you see or hear and leave it. Like, who cares? Just say, all right, on, just don't doubt yourself. Because, because there's a reason that popped up in my clairvoyant vision. And my job is just to share it. Yeah. Share it. And okay, now he's showing me this is, I got to give this to you, because he's saying, I, what I'm seeing is like angel wings around you. So I don't know if you know that there's a lot of angelic presence with you. Are you aware of that? This can also be your friend, by the way.

Uh, not really aware of it now, but, uh, it's interesting. So angel wings, because we have a painting in our family room that my wife bought. It's a little girl. Well, to us it's a little girl. It looks just like our daughter, but the artist who painted it did not know Shayna, did not paint it to be Shayna, but it's, it's a, it's a Black girl. Halo wings and everything. And that's in our family room.

So did they paint it for you?

No, my wife found it.

And so you found it. So yeah, she found it. And then it reminds you of Shayna, right?

Yes.

Yes. Okay. Okay. So because I see, I see angel wings behind you, like around you. And Alan's saying that there are a lot of angels that work with you that are supporting what you're doing. And so if you want to tap into that, you can, you don't have to, they're going to help you anyway. But they're, they're like giving you ideas. And yeah, your daughter is one of them.

Yeah.

You know, like, because I say we're all angels, right? We're all everything. Because if we're all God, then aren't we everything?

Yeah.

Aren't we angels? Aren't we everything? Right? So she's with you too. I still feel your daughter more tending to be on your right side. Like she's on your right side. So there's like there can be this energy that sometimes comes in. But, um, and, and, and I know I'm hearing Alan saying that she's so proud of you and happy that you kind of like, she's part of your life.

Oh, yeah.

In whatever way you want it to be.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. But she can do more for you from the other side. And I think they've all, on the other side, they all want us to know that. Because when they're in a body, you know, you know, we are limited, right? We're in a 3D body and can only do so much physically, and even spiritually, because we're here for the contrast. But she's doing so much for you. And she does guide you. And she puts ideas in your head. Like, I think all the time.

Oh, yeah.

So it just comes in and you just kind of know that's guidance. And it's perfect because I feel like you, you just kind of flow with that. You don't, it's not like something like for average person, they'll go, well, that was strange. They don't, they don't recognize like, well, this is just how I live. This is just how things happen.

Yeah. No, that's absolutely true.

Yeah. Right. This is how I live. This is how I roll. This is how I am. It's nothing strange. It's nothing, uh, quote special. And yet it is special.

Yeah. Well, I tell people that it's a partnership, you know, and that's why Shane's picture is behind me. Um, I would not be doing this. This without her. So it is absolutely a partnership, you know, like similar with you and Alan. Pam, we're coming to the end of our time. So I'd like you to do— we've mentioned your book, and we've mentioned your, your program that you have for people. So remind people what those are again.

Oh, okay. Well, the name of our book is Supernatural Love: A True Story of Love and Life After Death. Sorry, Ellen says I messed up the title. It's Supernatural Love: A Story of Life and Love After Death. Whatever, you know what I mean. And that, that's the COVID behind me. And it's, it's on Amazon, you can get the Kindle version, the ebook version for just like 97 cents or whatever. We're practically giving it away. Hard copy, paperback and hardcover. People love who, once they get the Kindle, they want the hard copy. Copy back there because they say that they can feel the energy more. It has helped people connect. It blows my mind that people tell me that they've read it several times. I mean, like 3, 4 times, like they, and they get more out of it. So any author would be thrilled to hear that, right? So it's more than our story. It's, it's, he says that it's a connection point to the other side that he said he would open a doorway. To their side. So, um, but if they want to learn more or learn with us, we just opened a free school community on the Skool platform. S-K-O-O-L, if people don't know what Skool is, and it's called Supernatural Love Inner Circle. I am going to be launching a paid program that's going to house like all the workshops I've been teaching. At this point, I can't keep count, just like 7 or 8 workshops. Like I've been teaching intensely last year and this year because I want to get a body of knowledge out there for people so they can access it. But we're putting it in this paid community on Skool that will be reasonably priced. And there they'll meet with other people who are on the same path. And so I hope people will first join us in our free community, the Inner Circle One on School. And I can give you a link to that because we'll always have that one open, the free one. But I want to go deeper and I want to explore helping people manifest a better life, more abundance, more connection with their loved ones, better health, like everything. Because I'm a big believer in that we create our world, our experience, our bodies, even like everything.. And so there's more power in numbers. So I like working with people one-on-one. But the other side said, I'm here to work with groups, the bigger the better. So we're, we're turning everything, putting a lot into that new school platform, which I haven't again launched yet. But let's see. So yeah, they can, they can learn more about me on my website, supernaturallove.com. That website URL was Alan told me to go and buy it when I didn't even know it was available. So from the other side, he goes, no, name of it should be Supernatural Love, like our book. And I said, well, surely that can't be available, like supernaturallove.com, right? And I looked and it was, it was for sale. I had to pay a pretty penny for it, but it was for sale. And he said, buy it. That's our book. That's our story. Like, just go buy it. So you can find us on supernaturallove.com. Everything you want to know about us is there, including one-on-one services. And, but otherwise, yeah. And go to my channel. My, my, our channel is Supernatural Love in the Afterlife, where I have 150-something videos where most of them teach about connecting with the other side, your loved ones and guides and everything, because they're all connected, right? And tomorrow I am premiering, I think I told you, on my first interview with one of my students who has an extraordinary relationship with her husband, who helps her with everything in her life, and made himself vis— present from really the moment he passed. He set things up so she wasn't as traumatized by his passing. So she has this amazing story of how he's just so present. And he guides her in everything and how she feels literally wrapped in his love, like 24/7. And she, like me, has said that his returning to her has brought out the real her. You know, she's empowered and she's stronger and happier and having this amazing relationship with him. So that is possible for people. And if it's in their soul plan, I think they'll find their way to us. Many people who do reach out to me say they knew that their loved one guided them to us. Because they found us out of nowhere. They go, I don't know how I found your channel or how I saw it. And the people who know they're guided to us usually immediately like, like join me. Yeah. They, they just jump in because I know their loved one's kind of pushing them. Right. Exactly. But you know, it's not for everybody and that's okay. Not everybody's here for the same experience. You know, we're all on a different journey, all leading to the same destination. Right. We're all going home. Yeah, but different paths all going.

Well, Pam, thanks so much for doing this. It's a pleasure to have you here today, and, uh, look forward to seeing you soon.

Thank you. Lots of love to you and all your beautiful audience. Everybody's watching and listening.

All right, enjoy your afternoon. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grief2growth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. www.grief2growth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.