The Dark Side of Theology: How We Overcame the Fear of Eternal Torment- with Dr. Boyd Purcell

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Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I am really excited to have with me Dr. Boyd C. Purcell. Dr. Purcell has an undergraduate degree in comprehensive social studies from Bowling Green State University in Ohio. He has a Master of Arts degree in counseling from Bowling Green State University. He has a Master of Divinity degree in biblical studies from Ashland University Theological Seminary. And his doctorate is in the integration of psychology and theology. He's a retired hospice chaplain, having provided comforting spiritual care to hundreds of dying patients. His, his website is ChristianityWithoutInsanity.com. And I've read his book, Christianity Without Insanity. That's what we're going to primarily be focusing on today. But we'll talk about his other books and his other work as well. But I'm really excited to welcome to Grief to Growth Dr. Purcell.

Thank you. So good to be here, Brian. Appreciate you having me.

Yeah, I said I'm really looking forward to having this interview. I wish I found your books like 30, 40 years earlier. So tell me, how did you come to write these books and become passionate about this field?

Well, I had zero fear of God prior to my 12th— or 8th birthday. And we lived in Kentucky in a rural area. And the church was not close. And we didn't have an automobile. My dad worked out of state in order to support the family. And he worked in Ohio. And we ended up moving to Ohio when I was 8. And that had more economic opportunities there. And then we started going to church every week, and I started hearing about hellfire and damnation, and it just seemed absolutely horrific that God, I heard was love, would torture people. They didn't use the word torture, they say torment, but I use the word torture in my writings because if getting people burning in literal fire in hell, especially forever, is not torture, then we need to delete the word torture from our vocabulary and get rid of it from our English dictionaries. It certainly is torture. So I was terrorized by that. And, uh, it— they talk about getting saved, and they sing the song Amazing Grace, give an altar call to come forward to get saved before it's eternally too late. But then they preach about how you have to live a perfect life. They quoted Matthew 5:48 many times. Jesus said, be therefore perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect. On the one hand, they said no one is perfect and can't be perfect, and yet to get into heaven, you have to accept Christ and then live a perfect life, or you'll get burned in hell forever. That just seemed absolutely absurd to me. And I was really terrorized by that.

So this was when you said about 8 years old that this, this happened with you?

So that went on through up to my 12th year. But going up to getting 10 years old, so here's the— 12 is a period coming pretty fast. And it's like you have a grace period before 12. If you die, you're gonna have an automatic one. Because you're not accountable for your sins, right? You probably heard the term age of accountability.

I have.

Actually, that's not a theological, uh, it's not in the Bible, right? Something that Christians have made up to try to excuse God and make God sound better. He only tortured 12-year-olds and older, uh, not 11-year-olds and under, right? But, you know, what does a 12-year-old know for that matter? But anyway, as my 12th year approached I started hoping I would die. And I wanted to die. And I thought about asking my mother who believed in prayer, if she'd pray for me that God would take my life before my 12th birthday. I knew she loved me. And, but that would really hurt her for me to ask that. So I didn't do it. But then I thought about asking my dad who was a hunter, and he took me hunting with him, if he'd do me a really big favor and shoot and kill me before my 12th birthday. I would go to heaven instead of hell forever. And I knew he wouldn't do that either. He's a very gun safety hunter, safety hunter. So he wouldn't do it. That'd be just totally out of character for him. So I didn't ask him. But as my 11th year came, I got to my 11th month, 11th year, only one month to go before my 12th year, I thought about taking my own life. But then I heard that suicide is self-murder, so that wouldn't be something covered by this period of grace up to age 12. So I'd be sending myself to hell by my own hands. So I didn't do it, obviously. But that's what I went through. That's all the terrorism. That's— I was not being hyperbolic in labeling or titling my book Spiritual Terrorism, but the subtitle is Spiritual Abuse from the Womb to the Tomb. It's not quite the womb for me, but it started very early in life at just age 8. But some people believe— the Roman Catholic Church believes— that a baby not baptized, God will either at least bar forever from beholding his face or God will actually burn the baby in hell forever, even though they're totally opposed to abortion because it's taking an innocent human life. Is that not oxymoronic? And then the Calvinists are even worse because they believe that God chose— his sovereign choice— who would be saved and who would be damned to hell forever, not just before we're born, but even before the creation of the world. I think that's absolutely absurd. That's, uh, Certainly the oxymoronic gospel, part of the oxymoronic gospel.

Yeah. And as you're, as you were telling your story, I'm just sitting here nodding, going, I understand. And my path was exactly parallel. And I know some people are going to be thinking, well, that's, that's crazy. That's crazy. That's insane. And it is. But this is what we were taught. For me, I was, I remember being, my grandfather was the pastor of our church. We were Pentecostals. And I was taught—

he meant well.

Yeah, absolutely. I love my grandfather. I admire him. And he meant well, but we were taught the same thing. And there's some people, and it sounds like you are like I am, that are sensitive to this, and we really take it to heart. For most people, it seems to kind of go over their head. And I think it's because it's so insane that they don't really grasp it. But I did as a 5-year-old. And I was about 8 when I started being able to not able to sleep at night.. And I would pray to God, why did you create me? Why would you put me in a situation where I am at risk of being tortured eternally? And I would rather not have been born.

Many times.

Yeah. And you find yourself in this dilemma where it's like, I didn't choose this. And I can't love this God because he's a monster. So I could totally relate to everything that you said.

So you understand, that's why I call that Christianity with insanity.

Yes, absolutely. So at what point did you escape from this? How did that come about?

Well, I kept taking a step at a time, which is very painful. And I went off to college in the same miserable condition. And I was told many times in church that there are people out there who will tickle your ears with things you want to hear. But be really careful about that, because the end thereof is the way of death, not just ceasing to live but getting eternally tortured in hell. So I was really cautious about seeking out anything else at college where there are opportunities to do that. So I started going to the same kind of— it was a Pentecostal church, uh, at Bowling Green that I grew up in. I only did that for about a semester, and it was just so bad, like, just like everything else I'd heard. There's no point going through this anymore as far as attending church. I'm probably damned to hell forever anyway, so why do I have to go hear about it every Sunday? Very well. Well, then I started, uh, going to another church that was somewhat similar to what I'd grown up in, but not— it was better. And the pastor there didn't preach all the stuff about hellfire and damnation, and I wondered why. And I asked him, you know, why are you not emphasizing all this hellfire and damnation? Because it was a very fundamental church. And he said, well, he grew up Roman Catholic, so he didn't hear a lot of this. He had some other legalisms, but he was not there very long until he left. And then they got in a new pastor, and he was as bad as any pastor I ever heard. And my next to last Sunday there, he preached on hell, and he— and, and it was sinful to dance because dancing, smoking, drinking, going to movies, all that will send you straight to hell. So he said to the parents, he shook his finger in their face, and he said to the parents, if you let your children listen to those Elvis Presley records, they're going to hell and you are too.

Oh wow.

I didn't care about Elvis Presley myself, but my sisters loved Elvis, and I had 7 sisters, and they had his records and so on, which I didn't. I wouldn't have walked across the street to hear Elvis, but I thought, you cannot go to hell for listening to Elvis Presley's records. So I thought, that's it, I've had it with church, I'm out of here. Which I was. So next Sunday I stayed home from church. And in my college dorm room, I thought, I'm feeling really guilty about not being in church and God may damn me in hell forever for that. Because they also quoted Hebrews about forsake not the assembling yourselves together. And so much the more as you see the day approaching, the day of the Lord Jesus Christ's second coming. So I thought, what can I do to be religious that might kind of placate God so I don't get damned to hell for staying home? So I turned on the radio and I heard a religious program with Dr. Yamar DeHaan, and he was preaching or teaching on the difference between law and grace. First time I really heard that, you know, wow, that's really good news. We're saved by grace, not by all these works. And so I sat down and wrote him a letter and sent in a small donation, and a couple weeks later I got back a big box of books because I asked him to send me everything he'd written on that. I didn't realize how much he'd written.

Oh wow.

There's a lot of booklets in there. So I started sorting through and finding the things that Law and Grace seemed most pertinent. And I read those, it just sounded wonderful. And I thought, well, you know, I remember those words, "There's a way seems right unto a man, but then there is the way of death." So I thought I'd take a booklet or two back to this Elvis Presley preacher and see what he was saying. He took one look at it and he said, "Ah," he says, "that damn old Baptist doctrine of easy believism." salvation by grace. He said— here's a really classic thing— he said, even if I believe that junk, I wouldn't preach it because it's damning men's souls to hell. It's the easy way. That grace way is just too easy. It's a hard way. It's a pressing way. You got to live the life and all that. And I thought, well, thanks, you know. I've had it with the church. I never went back there again. I went to the Baptist church and started hearing some of that salvation by grace and the spirit of the believer. And that's really the really beginning getting out of that. I just continued to grow about that. But let me say one thing. There was an elder who came to visit me in my dorm room after I stopped going to that church, Pentecostal church. And he said, you know, I really need to come back. And he said, if I don't, I'm going to end up in hell. And he said, you're just never going to be happy outside the Pentecostal church. I said, well, that may be true, you know, I'm not happy now, so it won't make any difference, happy in or out of it. Can't be worse out of it.

So what is it you think— and I, and I, again, I relate to what you're saying— that, okay, they tell us be baptized. I'm assuming you probably spoke in tongues. I don't know, but if you're Pentecostal, talk about that. Yeah, so we was like, be baptized, you know, in Jesus' name, speak in tongues, receive the Holy Spirit. But then you still never really felt saved. You still never really felt secure.

Well, that's one thing, because you're never really sure you're saved unless you spoke in tongues. Because that's what I was taught was, if you're saved, you know, you— well, besides being saved, you have to be filled with the Holy Ghost, right? The evidence of speaking in tongues, right? Right. Then to know you're saved, you have to get the feeling. You ever hear that? Get the feeling? Like, what's that feeling feel like? Well, no one could ever tell me. It was just, you'll know this feeling. So it's not just a feeling, it's the feeling, right? And then you'll know you're saved. Well, I went to the altar dozens of times praying and pleading, "Oh God, please give me the feeling. Save me and give me the feeling." God never did. I'm basically, I'm a left-brained person. I think the right-brained people are more emotional and speaking in tongues all the time. So I could speak in tongues even at the moment. There'd probably be tape recordings of which I have hundreds in my head. Not that I'd actually be doing it, the Holy Spirit would be speaking through me. So I don't speak. I just speak in English rather than some unknown tongue, right? But even if you get the evidence of the getting the feeling and speaking in tongues, you still have to live the perfect life to stay saved. That only gets you saved, that doesn't keep you saved, right? So much insecurity, it's just absolutely awful.

Well, I remember, um, again, we were little kids and they would say things like— I'm 5 years old, 8 years old— Well, don't go to the movies because if Jesus comes back and you're in the movie theater, Jesus is not coming in there, you know. And don't go, don't go to a bar because Jesus— we're like, I'm 5, I'm not going to a bar. But you know, but Jesus is not going to come in there. So you were always— it was like at any moment, if you had any unconfessed sin and Jesus came back, or you happened to die, then you were just out of luck.

Even one unconfessed sin, right? Really good person, but one unconfessed sin, going straight to hell. Forever. But God is love. Yeah, I don't want people to think— you hear this, this is all about the Pentecostal church. And I kept that out of my books, didn't say it, because they think, well, what else can you expect from those damn Pentecostals? But they're non-Pentecostals, they're just as legalistic. She's just as much fear, just as legalistic as what Pentecostals are.

Yeah, a lot of times they don't really emphasize it, you know. And it— and it— and I've, I've been in some seeker-sensitive churches recently, and they just keep it underneath the surface. So they, they bring everybody in, it's very happy, you know, they get great production values, great music. And then once every 6 months or so, they'll actually talk about this thing that, you know, by the way, if you're not saved, you're going to go to, you know, you're going to go to hell. So it's not just the Pentecostals. And I, when you talked about the age of accountability, I, again, I smiled when you said that, because it's not biblical. But what it is, is people said, well, God can't be this horrible. So let's put this, this artificial thing in that you're, you're okay until you're like 12 or 13. And it's not in the Bible. And I was a little kid, and here I am, like 8, and I'm telling, begging my parents, let me get baptized so I don't go to hell. And they're like, well, you're not old enough yet. So yeah, I had to wait till I was like 13. And I was baptized when I was 13. But the Catholics at least were more honest and said, you know, babies are born in sin. So if you don't have your baby— yeah, if you don't have your baby baptized, then God's not gonna let them in heaven. That's, that's at least more honest, right?

But then even as Catholic, you lose your salvation if you commit more— you know, they classify sins as mortal and venial. You know, the misdemeanors, but the mortal sins are the capital sins. So, but just minor things you might think wouldn't be a capital crime, a mortal sin, such as children masturbating, which almost all children do if they're normal. But that's a severely disordered action That's the latest version of the Catholic catechism. It was a grave sin, a mortal sin to masturbate.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you talked about, you know, you discovered the Baptist Church, and that was a little bit more freeing. What, what actually kind of led you to read the— led you to read the Bible and understand Christianity in a different way?

Well, actually, just reading it for one thing for myself rather than what people told me it said, but still reading it with the background I had, it was like a— oh, with a shield. I'm not sure what the word I'm looking for here, but it's reading it with a mindset because you misunderstand and to see it in a legalistic way.

Exactly.

Rather than a loving, graceful way. But The more I read, the more I understood, seemed to contradict what I'd been taught.

Then I—

one thing I came to believe fairly early on was that the fire in the Bible is metaphorical, not literal. And I never heard anybody say that.

Right.

But there are things in the Bible that can seem really horrific, like the eternal hellfire, the lake of fire, and all that in Revelation, and people get thrown into and tormented day and night, forever and ever. But there are other things, like when it says God is a consuming fire, Logic says, well, is God in a state of combustion, right? Absolutely not. So what does that symbolize? Well, God who is love is in the process of consuming sin. The fiery love of God consumes sin, which purifies sinners in perfect love. Yeah, I didn't quite come to that that soon, but at least I understood the fire someplace was metaphorical, right? But I was asked— and when I was a kid around 12, I asked the pastor of the church who's preaching on hell, fire, and damnation What about fire in the Bible? Could it maybe be not literal? I didn't know the word metaphorical then.

Right.

But I was trying to get at that, something symbolic. And the pastor snapped and said, no, the Bible says fire, and I believe it means fire. So if fire isn't literal, then you don't believe— you go to hell for not believing in the Bible, because the Bible says the fire is literal, which it isn't.

Right, exactly. And I love what you said there, because we do come to— when we read any, any texts, with a certain mindset. So the people that are reading it, the people that are taking it literally are coming at it with a literalistic mindset and this God who's judgmental and harsh, and that's what they read. When we come to the Bible with a metaphorical mindset, and we look for a loving God, that's what we find.

Absolutely. Let me give you a really good example here. This just blows the fundamentalists away, if they'll even listen. Most of them won't even listen to a logical explanation. Of, uh, from a perspective of love, grace, mercy, and eternal salvation for all, universal salvation. But then, um, I believe people— wait, and I asked, you realize if you believe the Bible is true that God is actually in hell? You ever heard that? God's in hell? Oh, that can't be possible. God's not in hell. Well, I said, you believe the King James Version? That's the Bible that's probably terrorized more people than any other version. Yes, most fundamentalists have. And I was given a King James Version, uh, when I was like 12 years old. And again, when I was graduating college, the message was, this is the— basically, this is the Bible, not just a translation of the Bible. And, uh, always and forever read only the King James because in the last days they will change the Bible. Well, I say to them, what about Psalm 139, verses 7 through 12? Now the King James translates this Hebrew word Sheol as hell. Now the psalmist said, O Lord, if I ascend up to heaven, behold, you're there. We'd expect that, right? But if I send down to Sheol— not to hell, King James says— behold, you're there. So God is in hell. Yeah, he said there's no place I can go from your presence because you're omnipresent throughout the whole world, the whole universe.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there. Absolutely, absolutely. And it's, you know, I For myself, I was, I was about 40, I think I started going through a real crisis because this thing with God was just freaking me out. So I started seeing a counselor. And I went to see a Christian counselor. And I want to talk to you about that. I'll come back to that. But I went to see a counselor. And I discovered this thing called Christian Universalism. I got on the internet, and I started doing some searching, like, what do other people believe? Is there any way that I can, I can still be a Christian and still you know, understand and love God. And I found— I don't know if you're familiar with Gary Sigler and Tentmaker website. I found that and I found some other guys.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, there's— yeah, so I found, I found these guys, there was a couple of different guys, and I found this group of people. And I'm like, there's a total different way to read this. A total, yeah, total different way to read this, the Bible. And I'm like, And I start reading about, okay, what's the history of the Bible, and the King James, and the word Sheol, which never appears in our Old Testament. We see the word hell, and that's not the proper translation. Translation?

No, it's not. But it was simply a place for departed spirits.

Right?

Yes, to have any connotation of any punishment. But by the time of Christ, there had developed two schools of theology. In the Hebrew tradition. That was Rabbi Hillel and Rabbi Shammai. Have you heard of them?

I have, yes.

I'll share that, or you want to share what that— but anyway, Rabbi Hillel believed that the fire of Gehenna— that was a Greek word for— translated by King James as hell, which is literally a garbage dump for the city of Jerusalem, right? Fires burning continuously there, and the the place where they threw out the— not only their trash, but the bodies of criminals and prostitutes and heretics and others they believed to be trash. And so the bodies weren't feeling any pain, but became a symbol of disgrace and dishonor and so on, because good people got burials with honor. So Rabbi Hillel believed that the fire of Gehenna symbolized disgrace, dishonor, and not being tortured per se. But no one would be tortured forever because after 12 months then God would annihilate those who proved to be incorrigible. At least people wouldn't be tortured forever. So that was a lot more humane view. But Rabbi Shammai said no, he just— he agreed that the fire was metaphorical and it was for the purpose of purifying people, but for those who proved to be incorrigible God wouldn't annihilate them. They just continue in that state of, uh, torment. And but the important thing was that there was no time limit on salvation. So where I picked that up and said, well, there is no time. God's gracious offer of eternal life comes with no expiration date. We're accustomed to things we buy, food and so on, having expiration date, right? Salvation has no expiration date. So God is going to win this cosmic struggle between good and evil. As I said, it makes no difference whether that is, uh, it takes a million or a billion, a trillion, or a zillion eons or years for God to win this cosmic battle. God's going to win it, and it will make no difference how long it lasts. It'll be no more than a second, more than a snap of the finger in eternity, because God is eternal. God has always been, God always will be. So God is not so impatient that God gives people one brief lifetime on earth, and some far more brief than others, and then down to hell forever, including those who've never even heard of Christ in this lifetime.

Yeah, yeah. And that is the logical conclusion of the way a lot of Christianity is taught. And again, it's one of those things, and I saw something the other day, it's like, well, you've got these few years to get it right. And if you get it, you said, get it right by believing in Jesus and living this perfect life until, you know, you happen to die. And if you don't, then you're gonna, you're gonna live forever and be tormented. The, the two things just don't seem to, to add up.

You could be the worst scumbag on earth. If you happen to have 30 seconds, uh, you know, you're going to die, and you utter a deathbed prayer, oh God, I'm sorry, accept Christ my Savior, then you're saved, you're going to heaven. And what some people who lived a wonderful life, maybe like Mother Teresa, and she had one bad thought or just left a good deed undone, because sin is an omission, count like sins of commission, you get damned to hell forever because you have that last moment to repent. Yeah, but back to Rabbi Shammai and Hillel. Jesus cleared up that misunderstanding, the controversy between those two schools of thought, when he said in regard to the purpose of Gehenna was to salt everyone in it with fire. Have you heard of being salted with fire?

I have, yes.

So for many of you, from someone else before me, No, I've heard it before. Yeah, okay.

Well, I've been studying this for a while.

Yeah, okay. Well, I never heard it in church.

No, no, no.

And I've asked that of hundreds of people in the last 30 years after coming to understand that myself, and, uh, including the clergy. And, uh, virtually no one's heard of it. The few that I have are believing Christian Universalists. But I asked one professor I knew well who was a Hebrew and Greek professor and knew several other languages. A brilliant man teaching Old Testament. And, uh, I talked to him after I had written my first book, Spiritual Terrorism. And, uh, he was a Calvinist, by the way, and he said that he believed in Calvinism because it made more sense than Arminianism. But he said he would like to believe in universal salvation, and he would give anyone $1,000 if, uh, he could show him that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation.

Oh wow.

I said, well, doctor, have you ever heard of being salted with fire? What do you think he said?

I don't— probably no.

No, he said no.

Right.

He's a brilliant man, right? A PhD, a Doctor of Theology degree. It was tough to get. That's harder than a PhD, all the language requirements. He immediately got out his Greek New Testament and read, pas gar kerai halos esotai. He said, "Everyone shall be salted with fire." He's blown away. He had never heard that in all his education. But then he immediately tried to explain it away by saying, "Well, that's probably bad salt." And I said, "Professor, it's not bad salt. It's not even good salt." Right. It's salt of fire.

Right.

It's a metaphor for purification. But he wouldn't buy it. So we've exchanged communication a bit in the last 10 years, but he still is not believing. I still haven't got my $1,000.

Well, yeah, because once people have that mindset, you cannot, you cannot reason them out of it. And let's talk about what Calvinism and Arminianism is for people that don't know.

Well, Calvinism believes that God is sovereign. You hear that a lot in Calvinism. And so God decided before time, even before the creation of the world, that these— some people will be saved, called the elect. Everyone else was the unelect. Elector told us very small. I've asked some Calvinists how many percentage, is that like 50%? Is it like 25, 10, or whatever? They say it's most of all small. So one said, well, I think probably 10%, probably kind of stretching it, it's probably less than 10%. That's the general thinking. Though there are some Calvinists now, there's one, forget his name at the moment, who called himself a biblical universalist, who was Calvinist, he believed that almost everybody's like, almost everyone, but not everyone is like, interesting. Everyone who's elect will be saved. But those not elect can't— won't be saved because they can't be saved.

Can't be saved. Yes, I think that's important to emphasize for people to understand. If you're not elect, you cannot be saved. God has made you for destruction.

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Right. So, on the other hand, if you are elect, you cannot be lost. God's already decided. He's going to draw you to himself with what? Irresistible grace.

Right, irresistible grace.

Now, that doesn't mean that grace can't be resisted at all. Saving grace, it can be resisted for a lifetime, but 30 seconds before you die, you capitulate to saving grace under prayer, confession, and You're saved, right? That's the Calvinistic view. Now, many of you says, no, God wouldn't do that. You know, God's impartial. We're told by the Bible God is impartial, showing no favoritism to anyone. Uh, so therefore God couldn't just choose some people to be saved and let the rest be damned to hell forever. Theoretically, then everyone has a chance to be saved. Now, Calvinism— I'm going to go back a moment— they believe that Jesus only died for the elect. He did not even die for the un elect, right? But Armenians believe that Jesus died for everyone, but in order to be saved, you have to hear about the gospel first of all, which the vast majority of the world has never heard. They've lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus.

Mm-hmm.

It's impossible to be saved, but they're going to hell anyway, supposedly. But at least you have theoretically a chance to be saved with Arminianism. But the bottom line is no more are going to be saved than in Calvinism. It's going to be very few, probably less than 10%, because Jesus said, straight is the way and narrow the gate that leads to life, and few that be find it. But wide is the— broad is the road and wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and many enter in thereat, according to the King James. But that has nothing to do with heaven or hell. That's talking about the life on earth, the abundant life versus the life we're living here on earth. But they read hell into that passage of scripture in Matthew 7.

Yes, and I, and I want to point out to people that most Christian churches, even though they may not call themselves Calvinists or Arminianists, are one or the other. They have that, that set of beliefs. And I learned this when I was reading— we talked about earlier— William Talbot's book, The Inescapable Love of God. I love the way he lays this out, because either God is sovereign and just doesn't care about most people that he's made for destruction, or God wants everyone to be saved, he just can't do it. It's just not powerful enough to pull it off.

That's what I call the crux of the matter. Webster's Dictionary says the crux is something difficult to explain. So the crux of Calvinism is that God is able to save everyone, but unwilling. Right. Arminianism, God is willing but unable because of humans' abuse of free will. But God— yeah, go ahead.

Well, this comes about from reading into the Bible and assuming that not everyone can be saved. In fact, most people can't. So they're coming into it with that mindset and trying to explain it in one way or the other. And it makes God either, either weak or evil.

Exactly. Yeah, or both. As I said, that kind of God, I suppose that was a small g, is the supreme sadistic moral monster in the whole universe.

Right. Now, I do want to talk, I want to move, shift a little bit because I was co-teaching a class on toxic theology over the last few weeks. So I was in there with some people who were from a toxic theology background, a lot of chaplains, some people that weren't from, you know, the Christian or the Pentecostal background. And they were basically saying, well, here's the thing, just give up on all that, just forget all that stuff, Christianity, that, that's just crazy anyway. And if you need to go see a mental health counselor, go see someone who's not a Christian, because that's the only person that can help you because you can't be safe. You can't be helped from that mindset. Now, I alluded to it a little bit earlier. When I wanted to go see a counselor, I had to see a Christian, because I knew I had to solve this from the way it was created. So I did, and I sought out— I call that throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And so tell me, when you were doing counseling with people that were going through— they'd been tortured by this insanity— how did you help lead them out of that?

Basically, by asking them what they believe. If it made sense what they've been taught. And most people, it didn't. I didn't tell people what to believe, and I didn't right up front share with people Christian universalism. And with hundreds of hospice patients, dying patients— every hospice patient is a dying patient— so I would just listen to them, share with me about your background and so on. And some would say, Chaplain, I've been trying to be a Christian. Mm-hmm. What's the difference between trying to be and being a Christian? They didn't say, "I am a Christian, but I've been trying to be." And they've been trying for 40, 50, 60 years with some of these elderly patients, and still they weren't sure they're good enough to make it into heaven. Right. A few of them said, "Chaplain, I used to be a Christian. I used to be a Christian, but I realized I couldn't live the life, and I just gave up all that legalism." So even some of the patients, though, who said— more like Roman Catholics— who say, "I am a Christian," Yet they express the same fear of going to hell because they're not being good enough to get into heaven. So an awful lot of phony baloney out there, and things are just messing up people's minds. So I basically just listen to people and share with them, and then I'd ask them questions like, uh, you believe the fire in the Bible, especially in relation to God and judgment, is it literal fire? Well, maybe they never thought about that. They were hoping it was not, but, uh, not heard. And I share examples with them like God being a consuming fire. Do you believe God's in a state of combustion? Well, no, God couldn't be in a state of combustion. I may ask them about, uh, do you believe in salvation by grace? Well, I've heard about that. We sing about Amazing Grace, right? God's grace doesn't seem very amazing at all. Uh, so what is grace then? It's unmerited favor. There's a book I recommend about God's grace, Addiction and Grace, that talks about grace being the most powerful force in the universe because it's divine Love in action. And, uh, yeah, as we get further along the road, I'm gonna ask them about being salted with fire. Have you ever been salted with fire? No, never heard of that. Well, tell me about that, you know, what is that? So I share that with them. That's what Jesus said. Those are Jesus' words. Well, could that be literally true? You could salt something with salt, you burn someone with fire, but can you literally salt anything or anyone with fire? Right. Oh, you can't do that. Well, that must be metaphorical. Well, what would that symbolize? So getting people to think for themselves and coming to truth and understanding. Then I say, well, if hell is eternal, which we're told it is, then Jesus must have been confused. He must have misunderstood. He must have misspoken. Uh, he must not have meant what he said, uh, which some people say is the case. When he said in John 12:32, if I be lifted up from the earth on the cross, I'll do what? I'll draw all people to myself. Now, all Christians have heard that. I think we even sing songs about it. Right. One song I've heard some repetitively, you know, a dozen times or more, with altar call to come forward, get saved before it's eternally too late. But lift him higher, lift him up, lift him up for the world to see. Jesus said, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. And yet they give an altar call to get saved before it's eternally too late, because he really isn't going to draw people to himself. Whether they say, well, he's going to draw people to himself to offer them salvation, but if they refuse it, then they'll get down to hell forever, right? Well, that offer has already been made, the offer of salvation. So if drawing them to himself does not mean salvation, then that is a meaningless statement, right? And I think it'd be very insulting to Jesus to say that he made meaningless statements. I think Jesus said exactly what he meant. He meant exactly what he said. If he lifted up on the earth on the cross the ultimate sacrifice for the sins of the world, he through irresistible grace will draw all people to himself. Therefore, hell cannot be eternal. He cannot leave one person eternal torment and draw people to himself.

Right?

Logically, it's freeing.

Yeah. And it's, you know, it's interesting, as we do go through this logically, and you said you're a left-brain person, I think I am too, you know, as I was, as I read these arguments, and as I start to read the real words of Jesus and how to take it metaphorically, and as we we compare Calvinism with Arminianism. And if we combine those two things and say that God does want to save everybody, and God is sovereign, and that God's grace is irresistible, then we come to the conclusion that everyone must be saved. Because if God wills it, and God is omnipotent, omnipotent, then it must happen. And that's the conclusion of Christian universalism.

That is true. So if God is omniscient and omnipotent, and God even has foreknowledge, and as you said, it's God's will that any perish but all come to repentance, why cannot the sovereign God get what God wants?

Right.

We're told in Job 42:2 in the NIV translation, not the King James, and also the Revised Standard Version, that no purpose of God can be thwarted. Well, that would include God's plan of salvation, would it not?

That would be the most important thing.

Absolutely. Yeah, can be thwarted because God is sovereign. God has decided he is going to draw people to himself. He's in the long, sure process of destroying sin, consuming sin, purifying sinners in perfect love. So eventually all will come to the Lord Jesus Christ, him through the Lord Jesus Christ. They'll bow their knee, as Philippians 2 says, every knee shall bow, those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth. That's a three-story first century cosmology. We've got earth here, heaven up there, and hell down there. We know today the universe is infinite, right? Direction. But that's how you understood it then. So those under the earth, that's Satan's domain. So Satan and the demons are also going to be bowing their knee and confessing Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father too. I've heard all my life the devil can't be saved. The devil can and will be saved. In Matthew 25:41, Jesus said, depart from me to the sinners into the Aeonian fire prepared for the devil and his angels. So if people can be saved, the demons, the devil, will be saved as well. It's the same fire. And then verse 46, they go into the Aeonian fire prepared for the devil and his angels, we're told. But there's a case of really serious mistranslation. We talked about the righteous going into eternal life, the unrighteous going to eternal punishment. The word translated as punishment is the word— Greek word kolossum. Which means pruning, and it means to prune plants to cause them to grow better. And that's what Moulton and Milgand say in their massive volume, The Greek New Testament, the two great experts, that aionian means that of which the horizon is not in view, whether it's at an infinite distance or no longer than the span of Caesar's life. It's going to be very long and very short depending on the context. So to translate that as eternal punishment the eternal pruning, that you might get annihilation on that because after a while there'd be nothing left to prune.

Right.

But logically, pruning indicates something that's good. You prune dead limbs. It's going to cause the plants, the tree, to grow better and produce more fruits.

Right.

So, and this is, you know, this is interesting because again, this is taking some of these verses that we thought prove eternal torment and really understanding them and understanding the original language and putting them in the context and understand that We've been taught the exact opposite of what these things, you know, mean. And I was, I was talking with my, with my daughter last night. And we raised her in the church, but she's now says she doesn't believe in that. I'm like, that's fine. We raised you to be a free thinker. But I was explaining to her the way that I believe and all the studies that I've done. And she's like, oh, well, that, that makes more sense than some of the stuff that I was taught. We tried to take her to good churches. I think we did. But most churches do not, do not preach this. And, and for most Christians, you know, like when they hear Christian Universalism, they think, oh, that's a new thing. That's some new thing that just people made up. So you might want to explain to people what the real history of Christian Universalism is as well.

Glad to do that. It's not covered in the book, as you know. The— not a new thing by any means. It's what Jesus taught. It's what the apostles preached. And the early church believed for at least the first 500 years of church history. He's already explained some of the things that Jesus said. Paul wrote, every knee bowing, every tongue confessing. And John in Revelation had this great theophany, this vision of God. So every created being in heaven, on earth, under the earth, on the sea, and all things in them— that's pushed the point of redundancy, be sure we don't miss the point— that not one created being in the whole universe failed to participate in this great hymn of adoration and praise. Where they were singing to the one who sits on the throne, the Lord God Almighty, and to the Lamb be glory, blessing, dominion, and power forever and ever. So that's a wonderful message of Christian universalism. So what happened with this? The church got off track by Roman emperors, uh, being the head of the church. And emperors all about control, they're control freaks. And so the best way to control people is have the greatest fear. I'll kill you if you rebel against me. And then if we get the peep— the Pope, or whatever religious leader we have, he has the power to damn your soul to hell forever. That's the ultimate weapon of control, is it not? So there's where we got off track. And, uh, here's the interesting thing, historical facts, which I love about history of nature, social studies major, European American history. And, uh, I know that Origen was the church's first systematic theologian, was born in 185 He died in 254, 269, in full communion, that is good standing with the Christian church, to which he had devoted his godly life. But when was he condemned as a heretic for believing in Christian universalism? Any idea?

I'm going to guess sometime 500 or 550.

553.

Okay.

Which would be 299 years after his death. What would you do that, condemn someone 300 years after they're dead?

Right, right, exactly. And that's, and that's the history that I learned when I started studying these things, you know, because we're taught that these things have been— this is the way that it's always been. The church has always believed this, right? And what I want to do with this, with this interview is encourage people to study and to learn and to approach the Bible with a new approach. Because I said, I was, I was on this group the other, other day with these people that were just basically just throw— I call it throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And I've seen this happen so many times, people, they go from being a believing Christian with hope of heaven to— I hate the word atheist— to a materialist. They're like, the whole thing just doesn't make any sense. So I'm just throwing the whole thing out. And I don't have anything to— any more thing more to do with this. Because it is literally— I love the fact that you don't mince words. It's insanity. It's, it's, it's torture, you know, we'll just call it what it is. It's this idea of eternal, you know, damnation. And it makes God, as I said, weak and ineffective, or both, or hateful.

It does. It just destroys the character of God. It's nothing to be done that's more immoral and more insulting, more demeaning to God and to our Lord Jesus Christ, this nonsense about eternal punishment. And there's a thing called the doctrine of reserve. Perhaps you haven't heard that one, but if you haven't, it means that even And this was said to me by the licensing committee of my denomination that voted to condemn me as a heretic for believing that Jesus was going to save the whole world. He said, Boyd, in the final analysis, even if you're right, even if Jesus is going to save everyone, wouldn't it be better to preach the doctrine of eternal punishment in the fire of hell? And then in the end, if everyone is saved, what harm will have been done?

Oh God.

What gross spiritual immaturity.

Wow.

See the harm that's been done to me as a kid, 8 to 12 year old, my teen years are wasted and much of my life worrying about that. And then worrying about salvation of other people, getting them saved before it's eternally too late. And you say what harm could be done?

Yeah, and you know, that's just— I'm sorry, when someone— when you heard that, just shocking the system. Because as, as a child, and again, my grandfather, love him, still respect him, my parents, they were trying to do the best thing for me. But it's It's torment to teach a child that— a sensitive person that really understands what you're saying to them, that understands. Yeah, and it's say that I am just this awful, terrible being that God could only save because he killed his own son and sprinkled his blood on me. It's just horrible. And it's not just children. I fortunately escaped from— but you talk in your book about the insanity this causes in people. To even kill their own children.

Yes, Andre Yates killed 5 of her children, all 5, to save them from eternal damnation, send them on to hell before it's eternally too late, before the age of 12, by the way, age of accountability.

And I was talking to my daughter about this last night. My daughter's a mental health professional. She's a licensed professional counselor, just got her license. And I said, you know, people look at that and say, oh, that's that crazy religious person. She was insane. I'm like, What she did was insane, but what she did was rational.

Yeah, absolutely.

If you love your children and you see them approaching the age of accountability and it doesn't look like they're going to make the right decision, then logically to kill them would be the most loving thing you could do.

It would. The churches don't teach that, but logically that would be. And here's the other thing, that if people who love children, if you really love children, then the best thing you do is not to have children. So they wouldn't have any chance of getting burned in hell forever.

When I was a kid, before I understood that my parents decided to have me, I blamed God. But if I, if I had known what I know now, I would have blamed— why would you bring me into this situation? This is, this is, it's not worth the risk. It's not worth living here 60 or 70 years to be tormented eternally.

As a 10 or 11-year-old, I wanted to ask my parents that question. Did you believe in eternal punishment before you had me? I assume they did. It'd be hurtful to them that I didn't ask them because really did love me. But what if you believe eternal punishment? Why would you have children, any children? And I made up my mind at age 11 I would never have children, even admit losing the girl, the love of my life at that time, which I did end up losing because of that. Um, as I was almost 27 before getting married and 30 years old before— in my third year of seminary— because I believed I understood the Bible well enough to risk bringing a child into this world. God really wants to save everyone. Sending almost everyone to hell forever. The fire of hell was not literal fire, it was corrective dimension.

Yeah. And that is, that is the harm. And I was talking with a friend of mine who was taught the same stuff. And he was taught about what he was actually taught, Jesus was coming back at any moment. And it's like, if Jesus is coming back at any moment, then there's no point in you going to college. There's no point you saving for retirement, because you're, you're not going to be here. So he literally did not go to college or save any money. So we do real damage in the world when we teach these, these crazy things. And so don't— so people can't, you know, just say, well, let's just teach this anyway, you know, just, just in case. No, no, not at all.

Absolutely right. It's absolutely awful that people would do that and teach that thinking they're doing a good thing, when they're terribly perverting the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Right.

And more people say, but love— I've always heard you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar. My mother used to say that.

Yes. But it's such a childish view of God. It's a childish view of people. You know, because I, you know, I hear people in the church, well, if you teach that to people, they're going to do whatever they want. Why would any— why would anybody—

why?

Yeah, why would anybody be good? Why would anybody bother to come to church, you know. It's like the old, you know, do good for goodness' sake.

It's a concept that doesn't seem to occur to these people, that maybe I'll do good out of gratitude, you know, being a good person, being altruistic, doing the right thing for the right reason, not out of any fear of punishment or any reward, just altruistically. In fact, I had an evangelical pastor tell me, now, boy, if I believe what you believe about everyone being saved, I'd go have a good time.

Wow.

Yeah, pastor of a church. And I said, well, what sins do you want to commit? You want to lie, cheat, steal, commit adultery? What is it? And then he realized it was such a foolish thing. He said he looked down at the floor, hung his head, and would not answer the question.

Yeah. And that shows that just a very low— there's a story. I don't know if it's true, but it's a great story. José Balú, the Universalist circuit preacher, was out riding with another pastor. And the guy said, if I believed what you believed, I would, you know, knock you over the head and steal your horse. And the guy, José Balú, said, no, if you believe what I would believe, you would never think about doing that. So this idea that it's a license to sin, you know, and I love that, that answer, you know, like someone said, you know, if I was an atheist, I'd— someone said that one, he's an atheist, that, well, I would rape and murder as much as I wanted to, because I rape and murder as much as I want to. I don't want to rape and murder.

Exactly. Well, then you have my book, you said, as far as the Christianity About Insanity. And in there, I just like to share this briefly. I guess we're probably getting near the end here. Yeah, please. But the first chapter is, as you know, it's titled Christianity with Insanity. The title of the book is Without Insanity. But the top 10 oxymorons— by the way, the The word oxymoron, as you probably know, comes from two Greek words: oxus, meaning sharp or keen, and moros, meaning dull or foolish.

Oh wow.

So it's inherently— oxymoron is an inherent contradiction.

Okay.

So we need to eliminate oxymorons from Christianity to make it attractive to people and get people saved through love rather than through fear. And so these are the top 10 oxymorons according to my listing here. The top— the 10 listed in reverse order. 10 is God's perfectly proportional justice and eternal hell. 9, God's desire that unperished almost all perish. 8, God's sovereignty overruled by human free will. There's the Calvinist of anything coming in there. 7, God's omniscience and inability to change free will. 6, God's omnipotence and impotence to save all persons. 5, God's omnipresence and eternal separation from God. You hear that a lot, eternal separation. It's impossible. God's not my prison.

You can't be separate, right?

Right. That's why God's even in hell. Uh, Sheol. Number 4, God's amazing grace and eternal punishment in hell. 3, God's unconditional love and eternal torment in hell. 2, God's everlasting love and eternal damnation in hell. And here's number 1, my favorite, God's infinite mercy and eternal torture in hell.

Right, right. These things cannot, cannot coexist.

Right. Um, here's my third book. I just finished writing this one.

Okay.

Holy Fire in the Bible, A through Z. By the God is Fire, the Baptism of Fire, and Salted with Fire. And then you have the salt shaker, uh, coming out of the holes, and then reverse layout, it's purified by fire, Mark 9:49. So looking forward to people reading that. Some people already told me that they've really been helped a lot. One woman told me, it's kind of amazing and so informative, it really helped me change her life.

Absolutely. And I do want to recommend, and I'll put in the show notes, the titles of all your books. So I recommend that people do, do get them and do, and do study. And you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And it's interesting, the situations I'm in where I'm helping people understand the afterlife, which is what I do a lot of the time, and again, talk with people about toxic religion. And there is, you know, there is still beauty in the Bible. There's still— there's definitely beauty in Jesus' words and what Jesus taught. And even what Paul taught, is if we learn how to read it properly and understand how it's been corrupted. I mean, the Bible has been corrupted by, by the church.

Yes, translation and more of the interpretation, but translations like that. Let me say this too, as far as the revelation. Uh, many hospice patients and other people are so fearful of getting thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. You've heard that many times, I'm sure.

Yes.

I say, what does the word brimstone mean?

Yes, let's talk about that.

So the only person able to tell me that out of hundreds of people is a retired chemist, and he told me it means sulfur. And sulfur was a wonder drug in the ancient world, the penicillin is today. So when I shared this with my mother which is 75 years old, she said, "Oh boy, that makes sense to me about the lake of burning sulfur." And I said, "Mom, why would that make sense to you?" And she said, "Well," because she remembered helping her dad, my grandfather, sulfur apples when she was a young girl.

Hmm.

So I never heard of that. I said, "How do you sulfur apples and why do you sulfur apples?" And I said, "Does that leave an awful aftertaste?" Because I remember how bad in high school chemistry class that burning sulfur smelled. And she said, no, it does leave an aftertaste and the apples taste delicious that way. But she said you do it to kill plant blight and any disease and to preserve the apples so you can preserve them all winter that way. But she said you slice them up, put them in a big pot, scallop out a place at center, set it in the silver pot, set it on fire, and then get out of the building because it will fumigate you if you don't. But that's what people understood long before canning and freezing. Preserve the produce. Also, a sulfur paste would cure body sore. It would also— someone died in a home of infectious disease, they'd burn sulfur to disinfect the house. And sulfur can be taken internally and externally for various maladies. So every way sulfur was used had a beneficent connotation until the Chinese centuries later figured out a way to use sulfur to make gunpowder.

Right. And I think that's really important. And I want to emphasize that, you know, because the thing is, the Bible is a metaphorical book. And it was written a long time ago. And a lot of the metaphors don't make sense directly in English. So when we think of sulfur, we think of something stinky. And we think this is going to be this place. And the ancient people that heard Jesus would have heard purification, they would have heard healing. And we're— and we've been taught to heal— to read it exactly the opposite. So we really, really, really need to understand the language of the day. And the metaphors of the day so we can understand what Jesus was really saying.

Right. That's exactly right.

Yeah. And I really appreciate, you know, the fact that you do that in your book. And I love the— I love that you, you know, the people, you know, think with the religion, you've got to check your brain at the door, and just go in and believe whatever they tell you. And even if it's, even if it's offensive to your senses. And you alluded earlier to all the little things. Again, I was talking to my daughter yesterday, and there's a guy— and I hate to say this, but I'm going to say it— a lot of churches are basically cults. Yes, they, they rule by fear and intimidation. And when I— when you're, when you're a little kid, they give you these verses and say, look, someone's going to come along and try to tell you something different. Don't listen. They're tickling your ears. They're leading you to destruction. You can't— so believe whatever we're telling you right now and don't believe anything that anybody else ever tells you.

Grandchildren, believe what makes sense to you. It doesn't make sense to you, don't believe it.

Right, right. And that's what— that's exactly what the opposite of what you'll be taught as a child in a lot of these, you know, Sunday schools and stuff. So I'm, you know, and the thing is, there's so much out there, you know. I've read like Marcus Borg and John Spang and your book now and Thomas Talbot, um, you know, brilliant people that have, that have studied these things and can teach you the truth. Like, you— I was shocked and I was Discovering Christian Universalism, they said the first 500 years of the church, the doctrine was universalism. The doctrine was that Jesus had saved everybody. I was like 50 before I heard that.

Right, exactly. I wish I could have heard that as a teenager. Well, before I heard that as an 8-year-old, that totally changed my life.

Yes, absolutely.

Well, Dr.

Purcell, it's been, it's been wonderful getting to know you and having this conversation with you. Thank you for for your books. I thank you for your time doing this today. Any last words you want to say before we wrap up today?

Well, I want to thank you for having me on and great interview. And you have a wonderful voice. I guess you're in the right profession with the voice you have, very melodious and very pleasing voice. But my mission, I'm in helping Christians known as the wounded heal. So I just want to tell as many people as I can to find peace with God, tranquility of mind, healing for damaged emotions, and joy of living. And Christian universalism does that. It'll bring people together. Our world now is so torn by religious violence of all kinds, especially religious strife, but someday it'll become tolerant and peaceful. And Jesus— the Old Testament prophet said, Isaiah, that someday that the righteous shall rush down like a mighty stream knowledge of the Lord will fill the whole earth. There'll be nothing— armor throughout the whole world. And so that's what I'm looking forward to. And that's not just the thousand-year millennial reign of Christ. That's a never-ending reign of the Lord God Almighty when Christ has drawn all people to himself, when all evil has been abolished and there's only good and right and righteousness throughout the whole world and the whole universe. Well, everybody will love everyone else just as God is instructed us to do through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yeah, looking forward to that day. Thank you very much. Have a great rest of your day.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful and will come back for future episodes. Brian's best-selling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grieftogrowth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grieftogrowth. T-r-e-o-n.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of Grief 2 Growth. For more about Brian and Grief 2 Growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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