The Doctors Gave Her Three Years- She Said "Watch This" - Dr. Wendy Slattery EP 417

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi everyone, welcome to Grief 2 Growth. I'm your host, Brian D Smith, and I want to thank you for tuning in today. Whether you're a first-time listener or you've been with me on this journey for a while, I'm so glad you're here. This is a podcast where we navigate life's challenges together, exploring the big questions like who we are, why we're here, and what lies ahead. My goal is to help guide you along the way through life's toughest moments while helping you find purpose and peace along the way. Today I'm thrilled to welcome a truly remarkable guest. Her name is Dr. Wendy Slattery. Dr. Slattery's life story is one of resilience, of reinvention, and profound inspiration. Diagnosed with terminal cancer, Dr. Slattery made the bold decision to retire early from her celebrated, celebrated career as infectious disease physician. What followed was an extraordinary journey into writing, storytelling, and leaving a legacy not just for her grandchildren, but for all of us who are willing to embrace life's uncertainties. Uh, growing up on a North Dakota farm in the 1950s, Wendy defied societal expectations for women and fought to achieve her dream of becoming a doctor, finally realizing that goal at the age of 46. Her career was nothing short of distinguished, earning recognition as one of the top doctors in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area and receiving awards for leadership and excellence. But it's once she's accomplished after a diagnose— after a diagnosis that's gonna leave you awestruck. So today's conversation will explore how she's faced her terminal diagnosis head-on, how she's reconnected with the dreams of her childhood, and how she's learned to live life on the edge of the unseen world. We'll talk about what it means to accept death in order to fully embrace life. We'll talk about the process of healing from a place of despair and how she's discovered meaning and beauty even in the face of immense adversity. Her journey is detailed in her book, The Edge of the Unseen World, A Doctor's Journey from the Imaginary to the Impossible. And there are many documentaries which you can see, find on her website at WendySlattery.com. So hopefully by the end of this episode, you not only feel inspired, but also empowered to make courageous choices in your own life, no matter what challenges you're facing. And remember, if you want to keep the conversation going, join me at grieftogrowth.com/community afterwards. And with that, I'd like to welcome Wendy Slattery.

Thank you, Brian D Smith, so much. It's an honor to be on your podcast. You've done so much for so many people. Um, thank you. Um, I will start by probably my most recent piece of news, uh, which wasn't there a few weeks ago, but my terminal cancer has relapsed, which puts me in a new set of grief for which I need a new set of growth. And so let me just explain a little bit about the— it happened about— it's 7 years ago exactly, January of 2018. I was in— I was working in infectious diseases, the job I loved, absolutely loved. And I'd seen my doctor on a routine visit and she had ordered some labs. But I, on Friday night, I had not yet heard from her and I didn't know why. Uh, so I decided I would get into my chart myself cuz I'm a physician. I got into the chart and what I saw, I couldn't believe, uh, right before my eyes was a terminal blood cancer, multiple myeloma. And in 2018, uh, it's come a long ways, I'll say. But in 2018, uh, it was a death sentence of a probably 3 years. And I was feeling great. I was working full-time. I was at the pinnacle of my, my profession. I absolutely got struck down like a tree chopped down in the forest. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I was dying right before my very eyes. I could see it. Um, so that began a journey of trying to figure out what I could do. I had 3 grandchildren. Those are her grandkids, Jennica's. My daughter's with me. Hello. Um, and they were 6, 8, and 10 at the time. And I wasn't— I did not want them to not know who I was if I was going to be gone in 3 years at best. Maybe it's going to be an ugly ending too. Um, I needed them to know what my life was. Okay. So I wanted to show them in a story, one story after the next, so that they could get a picture of who their Nana was. It turned out that everybody loved the storytelling. I started in my childhood. But so I wrote the book, The Edge of the Unseen World, because in that book, there is a lifetime of moments where I was on the edge of the unseen world, that spot where the veil is thin between you and your Creator. And I'm going to begin with the very first story, uh, that probably is the most memorable, and it was profound because I was 12 years old, and I wanted those kids to know that there was a world out there we can't see we didn't know there was a God who created us. Um, and I know that in your, your, um, website you talk about the, the frustration of religion, religion in your childhood. I understand that totally because I did too, uh, growing up in a Lutheran background that was very fundamental. Um, I did not know that God was really there. I didn't know that he cared. I mean, he's running the universe. He's got a lot to do. Why would he care about me? I just didn't think he could. Um, and at the same time, this is the 1950s and the 1960s where girls are truly second-class citizens. And growing up on a marginal farm, we had sheep, and I was going to be a doctor. Uh, and so I had a lot of plans, but none of those things could come true for me because I'm a girl. They don't give degrees to medical, uh, they don't, they don't accept girls into medical school because surely they're going to quit and go have babies. So they just can't do it. Anyway, let me go back. I'm 12 years old, and this is probably the first time that I experienced severe grief. I had a sister who was autistic, and in those days different was not celebrated, and she was teased a lot. And in a small community, uh, small school, real, real township, everybody knows everybody, and they made fun of her. They made fun of her terribly. Uh, the worst part was on the bus, uh, going, coming and going to school. And she was 4 years older than I was, and I did not know how to protect her. I didn't know. I'm too young. And I was getting really angry at God for not making her better and taking away that, um, that the behavioral issues of autism and, and making her better. And it, it, she was kind of eaten up like a bird by a bunch of hyenas every time on the bus. But those were attacks against me. Because she was my sister. And I was praying often, honestly, God, make her— heal her. Why can't you heal her? I mean, if you raised Lazarus from the dead and you healed people and you did all these things, then why, why can't you heal my sister Gail? Anyway, um, it kind of amplified. And one particular day I came home from the school bus, I ran upstairs to my bedroom. I'm looking out the bedroom window and I'm literally crying and I am angry. And I put up— I throw down the gauntlet. If you really are who you say you are, then I demand that you heal her. I demand it. I'm only 12. Yeah, I don't know if you can demand anything at 12, but I was, I was demanding it. And you have to show me you're who you are or I won't believe you at all. I'm not going to believe you because you can't do it or you won't do it. And I'm 12, and she— all those were injuries to me. Anyway, then all of a sudden the world changed in the atmosphere around me, and that very thin veil— honestly, I'm 12, I can't make this up— it got so thin and Did he enter the room? Did he enter my periphery? I don't know, but he was there, and I could feel him, and I could hear him crying. He was crying too. Every injury against my sister not only hurt me, but it also hurt him. And he said, Wendy, I made her exactly the way I wanted to. Perfect, and she will be part of making you who I want you to be. At that moment, I'm 12 years old, and I, I was different from then on. I never asked again. I never questioned it again. I understood exactly my role and her role in my life, and I knew for the first time in my life that that Lutheran background that I grew up with was okay. It was a wonderful church. It was all those things that you hoped it would be. But I knew now there was a God, and I knew that, uh, it was for real. And that's where I began, 12 years old. And that was the first enormous grief for which I had instant growth. And it would take me a little further. Now, that's not to say I didn't have, uh, challenges yet to come. Sure, because I'm still a girl, and I'm a girl of the '50s and the '60s, and all the things I want to do in life I can't do. I want to be a doctor, but I can't be it. But I didn't want to get married to a farmer. God forbid I would end up on the farm raising pigs and babies. I don't want to do that, uh, not to say anything wrong about farmers. That's my life I grew up with. However, I couldn't do that and I didn't wanna live at home anymore. I needed to branch out, so I decided I'd go to college cuz there was no other choice. So I went to college and I was floundering as to what I wanted to be in life. So I just ended up with a major in 4 years and it didn't matter. It didn't interest me, but I got it. Uh, but I— home economics. Home Economics. They don't even call it Home Economics anymore because it's too women's liberal.

It was—

they've changed that world. Yeah. Um, it's now called, um, what's it called now? Um, for a while it was Domestic Engineering. Yeah, Domestic Eng— and then it was Consumer Sciences. I don't know what it is, but it wasn't— it's never been Home Economics for a long, long time. Um, so I graduated and But now that— now we're into the '70s, and it's an angry time for that generation. We're mad. We're mad at the older people, uh, all the rules ahead of us. We don't think they know anything. Our parents, for heaven's sakes, no. Uh, the sexual revolution kind of took over. There was politics. There was the war, the Vietnam War. Everything was changing. So whatever I had at 12 years old kind of lost it a little bit. And, um, but there was a core of it for sure that kind of led me through a difficult time of my 70s and 80s. So, but again, you know, if things kind of fall apart, um, when I lost it, it fell apart. I lost my marriage, uh, lost several things.. But in the end, I heard that voice again. And I was now 38 years old. And it was time now to go to medical school. Wow. 38 years old. But I had never taken a science class. I had a 2.7. You don't get into medical school with a 2.7. My ACT score was poor. This would take an incredible miracle to get through. Um, to make a long story short, I didn't make it. I made it in, in the first shot, uh, but all by the grace of God, there went I, and I made it in. Um, and then hence the years I spent in medicine. And Angelica, you could probably shed a little bit of light on what your observation was during those years, because now you're born and, uh, and you show up and, uh, you watch me as a 12-year-old Now you're 12, you're 12. Yeah. And you're going, you're watching your mother go through medical school. Um, so I was the only mother.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep. And, uh, yeah, you started medical school and I started 7th grade on the same day.

Right.

Wow.

Yeah.

It was surreal. It was, it was a unique experience for a junior high kid.

Mm-hmm.

But in those Go ahead. I'm sorry, Brian, go ahead.

That's, that's incredible amount of determination to start medical school. So did you, did you hear that same type of, not voice necessarily, but same inspiration from God saying, now it's time?

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Yeah, I mean, there were a series of events that happened that I'm sitting on the couch and that thin veil shows up and it, Wendy, it's time to go to medical school. I thought, God, I can't, I'm 38. Of course, I haven't had a science class that would take me 3 years to pick up all the sciences required to get even apply to medical school. God, I got a 2. 2.7, they're not going to let me in. But you know, well, go ahead, Jenny.

And just a little bit of extra context around that too. The season in which you felt that push into what I could argue is your destiny.

I mean, you were, you were built to be that doctor.

But that push came in a season that I would call very difficult, if not dark, because I know that the— and the book goes into this in detail, so we don't need to go down the rabbit hole. But I know that that was a very difficult season for you and Dad at The Enterprise. My parents started a small business when I was 2, and around the time that she's talking about this, it was a really, really hard season in the business. It was a hard season in their interpersonal, um, areas in the business. I mean, it was a very difficult season. Um, I'll leave that chapter of the book to tell itself, but basically, um, it was— I would say there's a very dark cloud over it. And I think sometimes it's, it's those moments when things are dark and things are quiet that you kind of get the push.

That was exactly right.

You're open to the push when you're sitting in our room and it's dark and quiet.

And it's—

that's kind of where you were in life. I mean, it was a season that was very hard, but that was the quietness that allowed you to kind of feel that push.

You know, it's time. Thank you very much for bringing that up, because I believe that it's in our most despairing moments for which, um, we seek those things. We seek it and we Well, I was 12 when I heard from God, when I was so angry at him. Um, and you're right, Jenny, it was a push because it was dark. I had to do this. Um, and, uh, but for some reason, by the grace of God, there was enormous belief that I was going to make it. How in the world was I going to make it? I started— so I go to this small community college to pick up my science classes. And then I fulfill all those requirements. I go to the University of Minnesota. And I said, would you look at my transcript and tell me what you think? And she blew it apart. She said, you'll never get in. You're 42, for heaven's sakes. You did this at a community college. You know, your sciences, for heaven's sakes, we don't even think about community colleges. And she gave me 5 more reasons for which I was such a bad candidate. I walked out, every balloon had been popped. And I thought, shoot, I just spent the last 3 years picking up everything to make this happen. And my husband, great as he is, said, Wendy, she's a paper pusher. She pushes paper from this side, and then in the morning, in the afternoon, she pushes it there, and then she goes, pushes it, the paper over there. And at the end of the day, she pushes it one more time before she goes home. That's all she can do is push paper. She can't take you out of medical school. And he was right. I got— I applied. To 6 places. It got rejected by 5 of them, and the last one showed up positive. It was fabulous.

Wow. Anyway, so I would imagine— I, I— what was, what was it like when you were telling people, okay, I've got— how many children at the time?

Was it one?

Just one.

Yep, just me.

You've got Jenny, but you're, you're like, I'm going to go to medical school. I've got a child, I'm married, I've never taken What kind of reactions were you getting from people around you?

Oh, go ahead, Jenny.

Yes. The best is when they would look at her and be like, do you know how old you'll be when you're done?

Yeah.

Do you know how old you'll be when you're done? I mean, she had so many people say that to her. And finally, a cousin of hers who's actually, who had kind of paved the way for the family. He went to college, he went to get his doctorate. He was in science. He said, Wendy. You're going to be that old anyway.

Yeah.

The clock is ticking.

Yeah.

Do it now.

And that was, I hung on to that, that belief from that cousin of mine. I mean, we, I had, you know, 40 cousins and several of them didn't think I could do it. Uh, but anyway, he did. And I, I hung on to beliefs that I could do it, but I also had that belief in that very dark time that yes, indeed, I have to do this. And everything fell into place. What was the other people, I guess, some of my other friends, they couldn't see me as a doctor. They couldn't, I don't, you know, why would you do this? What if you don't get accepted, for heaven's sakes? Then you'll be a year older. I mean, really? So there was a lot of opposition. Um, and some people just didn't say anything. They were afraid to say anything. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, but we had to move. Uh, we had to move to Duluth, Minnesota, which was about 250— well, 250 miles away north in the cold Arctic part of Minnesota. And that's where I started medical school, 2 years, and then I joined the University of Minnesota for the third and fourth year. Back in Minneapolis, but I took Jenny with me. Uh, she went to a school, um, not far from the medical school, and the librarian kindly brought her over to the medical school, um, at the end of the day so I didn't have to be interrupted from my classes. It's a delightful community. It really was perfect. A class of 50, you know, or 50 of us in the class. Uh, and anyway, it was fabulous. I, I loved the journey. I love the destination. But then I come to 7 years ago. I mean, the, the years passed so quick— quickly. Um, it was amazing how fast time went the older you get. And then, um, you know, 7 years ago today, I got that diagnosis, and I couldn't believe that God would take this away from me.

Sure.

And, uh, my health— why? I mean, I've been healthy all my life. I've ran, I've done other things, I've been healthy, and now all of a sudden I'm dying. It didn't, it didn't equate. So I've now entered into another very, very dark time.

Very dark.

Um, and it's, it's what prompted me to look at what I was going through from a doctor's perspective. So that's really— it's not the whole book, it's really the last quarter of the book, the journey through cancer and its survival.

But may I, may I interrupt you just for a moment, Mom? Because when most people say that, they mean their journey through cancer. She approaches it like a kid on a farm with this wild imagination, and she describes like medically correct exactly what's happening with the chemo and the body. But it's like, I think at one point you even have like little Bilbo Baggins, you know, rafting through the bloodstream. Like, what is he seeing as he's looking? Kayaking. Yeah, kayaking through the bloodstream. What does he see in this landscape of the bone marrow that's been obliterated by this, you know, nuclear chemo? I mean, it's so imaginative that it's entertaining. And then it's like, oh my word, was I just entertained by a chemo description? But, but that's, that's what she was sharing on CaringBridge. And it, it was that little spark of light that her imagination could do that. I think that helped you, Mom, to process what you were going through. You let yourself be yourself. I mean, no other doctor and no other patient could describe that that way. But you let yourself really just lean into who you really were back on the farm.

The little girl.

The little girl with this wild imagination. And you're taking us into that unseen world, in this case, the microscopic world. But we got to go on that journey with you. And I think that kind of helped process. I mean, we know that, you know, writing things out and expressing things can help us, you know, navigate what we're going through. But you did it in such a unique way that I think you were able to express yourself in a way that you really hadn't for many years. And it brought out this whole other side of you. That I got to watch kind of reawaken. You were imaginary. You were just lighting up. And people were like, wow, your mom is a great writer.

And I'm like, really?

I didn't know that. Because you were always so sciency. And here you are taking us on a story. It woke something up in you that I think wouldn't have ever awakened if not for that very— I mean, it was a very dark period.

And if not for that, it wouldn't have It wouldn't have come out.

And it was really fun to watch.

And they were posted on CaringBridge time after time. But I remember Clarence, my grandson, and I were reading The Hobbit at the same time. And I knew that he could identify if I could just describe it. And, you know, there'd be these ribbons of DNA floating in the wind with the glitter of green and the kayaking and these little hemoglobins rolling, you know, tumbling through the bloodstream without their safe red blood cell. And, and, uh, anyway, so you're right, Jenny. So I— it was a glorious time for me to do that because I did it as a child. Um, and there is— there's another quite amazing miracle through all of this, and that is I never read a book growing up, right? I never read. I read 2 books in my 7th through 12th grade, I wasn't a reader. I didn't like it. I didn't like the printed page. So I had that doubt as to whether I could even go to medical school. However, I found the science to be everything for me. And the imagination would take over that. But it wasn't until I realized Audible books that now, oh, I too can read. Audible now because I'm not a printed page person, but I could audibly listen. And in my transport back and forth to the hospital, I would read book after book after book. And it was— that was a, that was a miracle to me because now I can be a well-read person just like other people can be.

But you were— you, you got through medical school, you, you had to read then, so you were really— you were okay with reading science books, but the other stuff just didn't grab you, or—

No, I mean, I was an Agatha Christie fan because it was a mystery, but, um, but I really kind of didn't do much else.

Okay.

My grandkids are reading more books in their, their 12 years of school. I, I mean, way more than I ever read. I, I'm on the farm. Yeah, yeah, that.

But also, I mean, You may have also— I'm not to, I don't know, diagnose you, but you may have had some undiagnosed dyslexia just by the rate at which you mix up words all the time. It's a family joke. I mean, she'll switch words around. It's amazing. And it's fun because my husband does the same thing. And so it's very fun for us. We don't play Scrabble together. We can't do it. But that's what I mean. You wrote a book.

It's amazing. It is amazing. You actually wrote a book.

And I, I cannot— I can't always communicate to people what a monumental accomplishment that is because they know you as very well-educated and very well-spoken. And I'm like, no, you don't understand. Like, she didn't read as a child. She hated the written word. It just— it didn't connect with her. It, you know, she would try to communicate. She's like, what's that word? And it's— it didn't come naturally. So this is not necessarily the natural habitat, and yet it is. And it's so cool to see as this, this whole new development of you became a writer. And it's a, it's a good book.

It's really good.

And I'm very— I, I was your editor, so, you know, I think very important. Yeah.

So I, I, I can, I wonder what it was like though. I mean, you, you're such a fighter, right? And you, and you go against like, okay, girls can't be doctors. I'm, you know, I'm going to become a doctor. Um, you go through the, you know, the trouble, this, and you get your medical degree finally at that advanced stage in life, we'll call it, since, uh, it probably seems at the time, and then it's taken away from you. I, I mean, I can't imagine how dark that must have felt.

It was awful. It was despair like I have never known before. Um, it was my world was what I loved. I loved the journey. I loved all of it. And it was now gone. And I didn't understand why God would do this to me. What did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? Of course, I came to learn that I didn't do anything wrong, but it took me 7 years to figure that out.

Sure, right.

Um, but I went into remission, um, and then it came back in 2021. And the treatment at that point for me was pretty god-awful because the first thing that happened is I went blind with this new, brand new FDA-approved drug. And I can't see for 5 days. And I tell my doctor, I'm quitting. I'm going to die. I'll be okay with that. If God promised me 20 years, I don't want them anymore. He can have them all back. I don't want them. He promised me them 20 years in one of those thin moments, thin veil moments. And I didn't want them anymore because I couldn't suffer through the cancer treatment. But in those— that was a dark time too.

Yeah.

That was, um, I heard, honestly, I heard I would go into remission., and I'm waiting for my bone marrow biopsy to show up, only to find out when it does come back, no cancer was found. That was a miracle. Uh, incredibly beautiful miracle and got me to today, 2025. And at Christmas Day, like I said earlier when we first started on Christmas Day, um, I learned that the cancer was back. So I guess I get— do I go through that enormous despair again, or, or what? My doctor has planned for me what's called the CAR-T therapy, and I've decided that for my survival, I will do that. Um, it isn't fun to think about, but I'll tell you what it is. The CAR-T therapy is a— now I'll tell you, 7 years ago I went through the stem cell transplant and 3 days later I went into septic shock. However, I'll say that that's all said and done. But now the CAR-T therapy is where they will extract or harvest my killer T cells. It's an immune cell. They will take them out. In fact, it's planned here for about 2 weeks from now. They will put a line in my neck and they'll ship out all my blood into this washing machine that with a centrifuge and they will extract the T cells and give me back the rest of my blood. It's a beautiful big science for today. And then they will ship them off. To boot camp. I call it boot camp, where these, these killer T cells will be genetically engineered killers, real, real killers. And then they will come back to me about 6 weeks later. So I anticipate mid-March, where I will go through a new Well, they'll come back and they will— I don't know what's going to happen, actually. It's going to be— it's not easy. It'll be about 100 days of, of, uh, difficulty getting through it. Uh, other people have gotten through it. Um, I plan to get through it too. I still think that God has promised me those 20 years. Um, and Brian D Smith, I've got 3 things that I, I hang on to. Number one, I have the faith. I have the faith that I will be healed. I do. It's not a question to me. It was 7 years ago, but it wasn't— it isn't today. Secondly, I have the belief that I will be healed. Like, uh, in the Bible, uh, the, the man whose son was sick, uh, Jesus asks him, if you believe that I can heal you, and he said, I do. But help my unbelief. I can tell you I believe it. I don't need any more belief. I believe it. And thirdly, I believe he's going to heal me. So I just hope it's on this side of heaven that he heals me, not in heaven, which is a possibility too. Um, but I believe that I will be healed. Now, I still have to go through the storm. I have to go through the CAR T therapy. I got to go through the storm, the 100 days of misery. But in the end, it's kind of like going through a tunnel. When I go through that tunnel, what am I going to look like at the end of the tunnel when I come out? I pray God that I will be the same today, then as today. And that is my belief. And I have the faith for it. And I do know that there are times when that healing eventually does take place in heaven. Uh, I understand that. Um, I do pray it happens on this side of heaven, but, but it isn't, uh, my— it isn't a question of his will. I know it's his will to heal me. Where it gets healed will be Where? Here or there?

Yeah, yeah. Well, so healing to you, what does that mean to you? You said healing either on this side or the other side. So what does healing mean to you? I interviewed a doctor, um, we were talking, he's a very spiritual person, but he's very, uh, he's in the medical field, so he has to be very cautious about the way he talks.

I know that.

He talks about, talks about cures versus healing. I hear a few doctors are starting to make that distinction, right? Because sometimes we're cured and sometimes, you know, we're healed, but we may not get the cure. So what does that mean to you?

That's a very good question, Brian. Thank you for asking it, uh, because I've been— I've thought about that in 7 years. I would tell you that in the 7 years prior to Christmas when I got this new relapse, I would have said I am healed. I can go about my day. I feel great. I'm doing everything everybody else is doing with vigor and, uh, stamina. I'm doing okay. That is a healed woman. Um, then I go to my doctor on a monthly basis, and then, oh no, she's going to tell me something I don't want to hear. Um, but I was healed. Now I have to tell you, I'm in a new place. I have relapsed. So Clearly, at this moment, I have disease that needs to be dealt with. Healing to me will be getting through that tunnel by June, whatever the 100 days it takes, as alive and with vitality and in remission. That will be healed to me where I can go back, I can I can take on my grandkids. I can take on a new book. I can do the things I love to do. Now, the only thing I wish I was doing still, but I wish I was working in my field of infectious diseases, but it's been traded for writing instead. And I am enjoying writing.

And let's talk about writing. So, because as we said, you weren't a reader before. Uh, you're really into the science and stuff. Why is it important for you to tell the story? What is it that— what do you get out of doing that?

Ah, good question. Okay, well, um, the first thing, I really wanted my grandkids to know who I was. When I was a little— when I was born at 2, my grandmother had died. And, uh, this was— so this would be, uh, 1950s. Now when I'm in my 30s, I go home and I I want to know more about my, my grandmother. Tell me about her. And she wouldn't tell me a thing. Uh, was she a woman looking for love? Was she looking for a career? Why did she marry my grandfather? I wanted to know everything about her. Kind of like you're gonna watch a movie. I mean, was there intrigue? Was there something? I want to know about her. And, and my mother and her two sisters couldn't tell me a thing. Frustrated me. So I decided that I was going to write this book for them, and I was going to put it in a movie-like way, story after story, where they were in— I guess that's first person, is that right, Jenny? I'm writing in first person where I am the protagonist, I guess. So I don't even know. I wrote a book. I don't even know what these words mean. Okay, so you're doing great.

Keep it up.

Okay, so I'm the protagonist and I take them down this journey of life, you know, my anger at God for not healing Gail, understanding how I changed because of that and, and who God is because I'd walk them through the miracles of getting into medical school. I got a call from my fellowship place. I didn't even apply and they called me to come in there and be their fellow. I was supposed to be an infectious disease doc. There's a destiny in life, and I wanted my grandkids to know the one I had. And so, but it turned out that I enjoyed the writing so much because I could find myself going into places that were imaginary. And, oh, you know, let's look at it from this perspective, and, uh, let's bring Bilbo Baggins in, you know, and, uh, make it exciting. And I'll tell you, my first 3 readers were my first— my grandchildren. And they read that book cover to cover, um, and I know they liked it a lot.

Um, well, and your, your story—

I'm sorry to cut you off—

but the story that you, that you not only told but lived spans some very interesting time periods. I mean, growing up on a farm in the '50s is not something that they know about, and the stories that come out of there are charming and funny, but also like, whoa, wow, that's different. And then you lived through the '70s on a college campus.

Whoa.

And then you entered the computer industry because they were hiring just any— anybody with a degree, even, even a woman with a home ec degree.

Even you got hired.

And they hired— I mean, what a, what a beautiful stroke of luck that was. But here you are. I mean, you, you were there when the computer industry was taking off and what a time. And, and then the next thing and then medical school and then that. And I mean, it's, it's a really interesting sequence of events. So the fact that you lived interestingly, I think helped.

So well done.

Yeah.

I want to, Wendy, I want to go back to something you said at the very beginning about your sister, uh, your artistic sister and asking God to heal her. And it's really— this is just what's going on in my life right now. Autism keeps coming up for some reason for me. I've interviewed 3 people who, who were dealing with autistic children. One was a teacher, and she was a non-verbal boy, uh, named Asher, who she— he— she grew up—

he—

she met him in first grade. He's like 30 now. She's written a book with him. Uh, he communicates to her telepathically. And interviewed 2 mothers of autistic children And they, um, one of the, one of the children has passed now, but they, they're mediums. They speak to people in spirit. Both, both boys do. Um, and then I found this recently. There's a podcast called The Telepathy Tapes. I don't know if you guys have heard about it. It's blowing up like crazy. These autistic children communicate with each other non-verbally, with their parents. Again, some of them speaking to people across the veil, etc. And then the last thing I'll say, and I'll let you speak, but there— I just saw somebody the other day and he was doing a video. He said, I don't have autism. It's not a disease. It's not something to be cured. I am autistic. And I thought that was really— so when you were talking about your sister, I love that message that you got about her being perfect the way that she was made. So I'm just curious what your reflections would be on that.

Well, um, I guess I, I haven't experienced any telepathy or anything like that. Um, my sister, uh, you know, she too was growing up on the farm and a second-class citizen, and even more so as autistic, right? So she was really on the bottom of the list as far as important people. Um, and thank goodness they, they celebrate different today. Uh, and I'm very thankful for that because, um, Gail was a generation off in that. Um, I, I know that the words I heard were from God himself because he was the one I was addressing my, my anger at. Um, but I, I don't know, was that telepathy? But I heard I call it— actually, you know what I call it, Brian? I call it the Eternet, eternity network. That's what I call it. It's when you've got communication with God, your Father. And I knew— how can I all of a sudden change? A moment— it was a change, instant change, because I heard his voice. She was perfect, right? And she's going to help you. Become who I want you to be.

Yeah.

Um, those were the only words I heard.

And in what ways did she help you?

That's a good question, because it took me generation— a generation to know that. Um, when I got sick the first time, 7 years ago, in that 7-year journey that I've just come through, um, there was a park right by my house, and I would go there to try to pray to God, you know, you know, help me understand why you took away my job. Take— tell me why you've given me this terminal illness. And then one moment when I was on the bench with the Lord, because I'd scoot over and I'd imagine the Lord was right there beside me, and I would say— one morning I asked the Lord, did I learn the things I was supposed to learn? I mean, my life is coming to an end. I can see that I'm on the back nine of my golf game here. Okay. And I can see that there's not a lot of time left. And I'm asking the Lord, did I accomplish— did Gail do what she was supposed to do in helping me become the person you wanted me to be? And I never got an answer, but I think you did. I think I— she did. I mean, I think she did accomplish that goal. And you know what, um, I was— I always hoped more for my sister Gail, that, that she'd have a life like I had, you know, you know, job and all these things. But, you know, as we look back now, Gail's had a fabulous life. She volunteers in Minnesota for whatever she feels like volunteering for. She's a spokesperson at the, uh, state capitol for the handicap. Um, she's done more in her life than I know a lot of people that have more mental faculties have accomplished in their life. And she was my hero.

Yeah. Awesome.

Yeah.

May I add to that? Um, because I, I've watched you over the years. Um, I, I remember we were at the Minnesota State Fair one day, and I was probably 14 at the time, and there was a really big line to get into— uh, not to get into, but it was a food vendor of some kind, maybe lemonade, and it was 103 degrees. Whatever it was, it was in high demand. And so there's not a line, but like a crowd of people trying to make 3 lines, and there was a gentleman ahead of us who I believe he was in a wheelchair. And so he was lower and he had a harder time, like basically saying, I'm next in line, um, just because of the height difference to the counter. And the, there was some, there's somebody, a woman cut in front of him because everybody, you know, that feeling, everybody's tense. You can like sense it on everybody else when we all want, you know, we all got to get to that counter and order the lemonade before it's gone. And she cut in front of him. And I saw my mom prickle like an instant porcupine, like, oh, uh-uh, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't get to do that. And she like went up 6 people or however many people were between us, and she was like, excuse me, this gentleman was first, and super loud, super obvious. Um, but she advocated for the guy that got overlooked and could have easily gotten hidden in the crowd. And she carried that with her into her medical career. And as an infectious disease doctor, I mean, we'd get the stories of the diseases she'd seen that day around the dinner table, which was really entertaining.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but in infectious disease, you sometimes end up with patients that other people don't want necessarily to see or work with, or they're difficult cases, or they're hard diseases to cure. And with that comes a lot of emotional baggage in the patient. A lot of doctors, you know, they've, they've pursued their careers. They went to college and then they went to medical school and they have an agenda and they've got their, their career and it's all in, you know, their Excel spreadsheet at home and they don't have time for this. And my mom comes at it from a very different perspective. And I mean, that's not all medicine and not, not all of your colleagues, but, but, but she truly approached medicine with an eye out for the Gails of the world. And her patients loved her. The notes that would come to our house from patients that other doctors hadn't maybe wanted and they had ended up in my mom's office. She loved them and she saw them and she absolutely gave them every bit of dignity that they deserved as a human being created by the same creator who created Gail perfectly. And she afforded them every bit of attention and time, and she looked out for them in a way that I think it would have been very easy for, for those of us who didn't have a Gail in our lives to overlook without even realizing it. So that would be, I think, my observation.

Thank you, Jenny.

Yeah, yeah, thanks, thanks for that. So when you mentioned earlier that you, you grew up in kind of a fundamentalist background, you were given this, this image of God. How do you view God now?

Oh, okay, that's a good question. Well, when I was little, I was just mesmerized by the, you know, is he there or not? Or do we just all go to church and have these rules? I just didn't know. Sure. Um, but I But today I would have to say that I have a personal relationship with my Lord and Savior. I know, I know him. I've heard his voice. That's the Ítter-net that I tell you about. And you know when you know, you know when you know you've heard something, you just know it. And it can propel you here or there. It's the love, the love that he has for us, for which we can share with someone else. And, um, and that was— thank you, Jenny. Uh, that was my love for my patients. I loved them. Yeah. Particularly the ones that were down and out. Yeah. Some of them were. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but that is, that's the life I have today. Do I have those rules, those, that Lutheran background still? Um, do I? Uh, well, yes. Yes, I do. Um, do I go to Lutheran church? No, I don't. Uh, It's— I would have to say that I'm not religious. Even Jesus didn't like the religion of the day. So I would say I'm not religious, but I do have a spiritual life, a very strong one. It's got me through. It's got me through these 7 years very nicely. And I still think I'm going to get my 20 that he promised me. Uh, that's my God in heaven. Yeah. And I, and I'll have to say that, um, all things work to the best to those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose. Uh, and it all worked out, and it still will. It, uh, even though I've got this thing looming in my direct future here, um, I will, I'll get through the CAR T therapy. But by the grace of God, or I'll be in heaven celebrating with someone I used to know.

I don't know. Healed either way.

Healed either way. Exactly.

Yeah. Well, um, I'm glad you got that, that promise of those 20 years. Um, that, that, that's great. And, you know, uh, I, I wish you the best with that. And I, and the, you know, it's interesting because we're never promised that the road will be easy, right?

No.

So that's one of the things that we are not promised in this life. And we all would like to be able to say, okay, I've gone through this. Isn't that enough? And you reminded me, I was interviewing a woman. She was born a thalidomide baby, which you probably, you may know what that is. People that are younger may not. In the '60s, it was a drug that some women took when they were pregnant. So she ended up missing fingers on her hand. But it's a long, long story, but she went through everything. She lost her mother, she lost her son, she lost her husband. She became a dentist, and then she lost her career. Um, but when I interviewed her, she was just like one of the most joyous people I'd ever met. You know, she was like looking forward to spending time with her grandchildren and her daughters, and, you know, she was looking to all the things that she had, right? And so once we have this perspective of you know, look at what we have rather than what we don't have, we can endure pretty much anything.

Very true. Very, very true.

So true.

Yeah. And that's a kind of a message I wanted to send to my grandchildren in that book. Mm-hmm. You know, that, um, it isn't an easy life for most, uh, for anybody. Um, we all have our setbacks. Um, yeah, and it's, you know, it's okay. You kind of have to learn how to get through those setbacks.

Um, yeah, I, I honestly think the setbacks are universal. You know, it's funny because we, we look at people from the outside and say— someone saw you at the grocery store this afternoon, they would imagine— no one's going to imagine that you've got this diagnosis, so you've gone, you know, you've had these issues. We, we look at other people, we project, oh, they have a perfect life. And we all think, I'm the only one going through obstacles. So, um, it's really— that's what I love about like books like yours and sharing these stories with people, because it makes us feel not as alone. And we understand that, you know, God, Source, Universe, whatever you want to call it, does have a plan for us. But it doesn't mean that it's all going to be sunshine and roses, because that plan could include some, some difficult times.

Well, true. I, I, like I said earlier, um, when I got my diagnosis 7 years ago, I couldn't understand it, right? I honestly thought God was mad at me, or, or maybe why I would— why was this happening to me? And, um, how could it happen to me? Yeah, I was doing everything right. I mean, I was a good person and I was doing these things right.

And yeah, and it's really interesting that, that you had that reaction. I I appreciate your, your frankness there, your honesty, because some people might say, well, you're an infectious disease doctor, you're watching people suffer all the time, um, and, and we don't think they did something wrong, right? We don't, we don't look at them and say, you must have done something wrong. But that's the, that's the thing we say to ourselves, because we have this kind of unwritten pact with God that, like, if I just do the right things, then nothing bad will happen to me, right?

Yes.

I don't know where I got that thought, but I had it. I know, I don't know where it came from.

Maybe from that Lutheran church.

Sunday school. It's a— I called, I called the Santa Claus God. We're taught this. This God's up in heaven. Yeah, if you do good things, then God will give you good stuff, and if you do bad things, God will give you bad stuff. It's, it's the Santa Claus God.

You deserved it, right?

Yeah, yeah. They don't really go into the Book of Job in, in Sunday school.

They don't, they don't talk about— yeah, they don't talk about the Book of Job at all. And it's really interesting because Job's— the people around, the characters around you, oh, Job, you must— you did something wrong, Job. Obviously. And Job's like, no, I'm telling you True.

Yes, exactly.

Oh, I love how that's like placed right in the middle of the book. Like, it breaks every paradigm we could possibly bring ourselves. I love that. Oh, that is such a fabulous point, Brian. Thank you.

Yeah.

So, Wendy, we're running short of time, so I want to say thank you so much for being here today. And Jenny, you as well for chipping in. Wendy, remind people of the name of your book. Yes. And I know you've got a mini documentary also.

Yeah. The Edge of the Unseen World: A Doctor's Journey from the Imaginary to the Impossible. And, uh, that's the book. It's on Amazon, it's on Barnes Noble, um, other places. Um, and my website is wendyslattery.com. W-E-N-D-Y-S-L-A-T-T, the same, .com. And I do have a documentary on there done, uh, by, um, Um, Jenny, help me.

He's an Emmy Award-winning, um, storyteller. He's very good.

Yeah. And he told my story.

Yeah.

Um, one afternoon, and that's on my website.

Awesome.

Beautiful.

Well, uh, again, thanks for being here. I know you're in beautiful Arizona. We're recording this in January. I'm in Ohio. I'm jealous. So enjoy your time there. And, uh, Jenny, thanks for being here with us today. You guys have a great rest of your afternoon.

Thank you, Brian D Smith, for the honor to, to be here. Thank you very much.

Thank you, and thank you for the work that you're doing. Keep it up. Thank you.

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