The Hidden Truth About Postpartum Recovery After Pregnancy Loss- with Eileen Santos Rosete EP 408

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet.

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Hey everybody, welcome to Grief to Growth. I'm your host, Brian D Smith. And whether you're joining us for the first time, or you've been with us for a while, I'm glad you're here. This is a podcast where we explore life's toughest challenges, seeking answers to profound questions about who we are, why we're here, and where we're going. It's a space for growth, for healing, and for meaningful connection. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Eileen Santos Rossetti, She's an author, a grief educator, and a certified postpartum doula. Her groundbreaking work is changing the way we view and support those experiencing pregnancy and infant loss. Her new book, To Tend and to Hold: Honoring Our Bodies, Our Needs, and Our Grief Through Pregnancy and Infant Loss, is a heartfelt, holistic resource that offers guidance, comfort, and care for those navigating the delicate intersection of postpartum and bereavement. Eileen draws from her deep expertise, which includes a master's degree in marriage and family therapy from Northwestern University and certifications in trauma-informed yoga and postpartum care. Her platform, Our Sacred Woman, has become a beacon of hope and healing, elevating offerings to help women feel seen and honored in their experiences. So in this episode, we're going to dive deep in her unique approach to supporting grief through embodiment practices, nursing self-care, and her call to honor the stories of those who often go unheard. Together, we'll explore how her work speaks not only to parents, but also to anyone carrying grief. And we'll discuss the transformative potential of acknowledging loss as a sacred journey. So stick around to see how Eileen's work challenges societal taboos and opens a pathway to holistic healing. And don't forget to join the conversation afterwards at griefthegrowth.com/community, where you can talk to other listeners and share your thoughts on today's episode. So with that, I want to welcome Eileen Rossetti.

Thank you, Brian. It is an honor to be here with you. I appreciate it. And let me start by offering my condolences for the death of your daughter.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you very much. So, Eileen, the work that, that you do, the work that I do, is pretty unusual work. It's, it's a field that a lot of people rather shy away from. So what brought you to this work?

Well, certainly as many of us find ourselves doing grief work, it's personal experience. I experienced a very healthy, smooth first pregnancy, gave birth to a living child who is still living, and then experienced two pregnancy losses before having my second and third living children. And those losses really impress upon me the importance of helping other survivors of pregnancy and infant loss and, and the world at large recognize that we too are postpartum after pregnancy and infant loss. For anyone who has been pregnant, you at some point get to a point where you are no longer pregnant and your body is going to go through the same shifts as someone who gives birth to a living child who continues to live beyond infancy. Hormonal shifts, physical shifts, depending on how long you gestated. Mental wellness comes into play as well. So we deserve the same care, the same postpartum care that everyone who gives birth needs, with an added sensitivity to our grief and our trauma. And that kind of care, postpartum care, usually includes nourishing food, like warm food that is both emotionally comforting but also easy for the body to digest, healing teas, respectful gentle touch such as massage, postpartum massage that helps the body to relax after going through such a strenuous process of gestating and laboring and birthing. And let me just stop there and say too, I wanted to help bring awareness to the fact that even if your pregnancy ends in loss, you also have to labor and give birth. That pregnancy has to leave your body in some way, either through, uh, vaginally or through a procedure, through a medical procedure. And that's something that most people know unless you've gone through the experience of pregnancy or infant loss, or you are partnered to someone who has, or you're a medical professional or birth worker who supports people who go through that. So yeah, and that's something that I didn't realize till— right, until I was in the midst of it. My— yeah, one of my doctors, um, in the case of my first pregnancy loss My OB at the time, she was wonderful, was really great with delivering the news in a sensitive way that there was no longer a heartbeat in the ultrasound, held space for me. She stood there as I cried. I didn't feel rushed at all. She left the room twice to give me time alone. Ideal, ideal support from a healthcare provider. And at the same time, looking back, I wish she had framed the next steps a little differently. We had decided to give my body 2 weeks to see if it would release the pregnancy naturally, if it would go into labor, and if I would give birth without any form of support. Uh, that didn't happen. And so our plan B was for me to take medication that would help my body to begin to, um, go into labor, which I, I did. Um, And so looking back, I had wished— I wish that my doctors said, you're basically essentially having a home birth. You're going to be laboring. Your uterus is going to be contracting as it would with a full-term pregnancy to release what's— what it's holding. Um, you're going to feel contractions. You're going to feel pain. Usually how it's communicated is that you'll experience some bleeding and some cramping. But for many of us, that— it's more than cramping. It's very painful. It's— they're contractions. And since I had given birth once before already, unmedicated, I knew what contractions felt like. And so in the midst of that first pregnancy loss and laboring, I would— I remember very distinctly, I was sitting on the toilet, my feet were set wide, and I was trying to cope with the pain. And it really just— the realization hit me like, oh, I'm giving birth, I'm laboring. And so even for someone who's gone through a pregnancy before, I didn't realize that I would go through very much the same steps. And thankfully, I had gone through a pregnancy before, and so After I had that realization, then this wave of calm came over me and I told myself, "Oh, I know how to do this." And so many people, so many pregnant women, pregnant birthing people, they've not experienced birth before, labor and birth. It may be the first pregnancy that they're experiencing pregnancy loss, infant loss. So I, I wanted very much to help equip them with the information and the tools that I wish I had, um, and that I did have because I had given birth before. So for them to know what contractions might feel like, for them to know how they might move with the pain, listen to their body, move to the ground, try different positions. Basically Google home birth and everything that is shared can also apply to you is what I want my readers to know. And so yeah, that was the impetus, was my own— were my own losses. And in 2019, because of my losses, I began volunteering at a grief support center here in Los Angeles called Our House. Leading grief support groups for all kinds of grief, for partner loss, parent loss, child loss. And so that was a way for me to channel my grief. So, so there was that. And then, yeah, I began hosting these dinners in LA to honor those of us who have gone through this kind of loss. Because I realized too, Brian D Smith, that out in the world of grief literature and online social media content for what what's also called perinatal loss, pregnancy or infant loss, much of the focus is on the baby that died. And there really isn't— there really is not a lot of focus on the people, the women, the birthing people who experience this with their bodies. And really the same could be said with a live pregnancy that ends with a live birth, with a child that continues to live. The moment that baby's out of your body, the attention shifts to, to the baby. And those of us who are gestating and laboring and birthing are often feeling forgotten. Um, and forgive me, this has happened actually quite a few times with interviews. I get these moments where I just completely lose track. Um, and if you could help me, Brian D Smith, I like to call them those mommy moments.

Yeah, no, that, that's, that's fine. I just perfectly understand. I want to say real— I, I'm sorry for, for your loss. Thank you. And I know that, you know, you just educated me a whole lot right here because we don't think about— we hear someone had a miscarriage and we don't know what that means, right? It's like, did the fetus just disappear? You know, what's, what's that process like? So thank you for, for sharing that, and I can only imagine how traumatic that must be going through that, knowing that the baby is not going to survive, but you still have to go through that whole, that whole process.

Yes.

And I've never heard it termed as postpartum before either, um, which makes a lot of sense. So I think, I know you've just educated me and hopefully a lot of other people as well.

Thank you for that, Brian D Smith. Yeah, and postpartum, when people hear that, they often think postpartum depression. Right. And really, post— the word postpartum means after birth. So that birth can, can result in a living child, and it cannot. It can result in a living child that dies soon after. So postpartum simply means after your body releases a pregnancy. Um, I do thank you for, for jumping in because I do remember where I was trying to go. I was saying I— my My own grief led me to the support organization in LA, to leading grief support groups, which I still do. So it's going on several years now, and it's so, so fulfilling to know that my pain has led me to work that can support others going through loss. And then I started hosting these dinners, yes, to help others. Know that we too are deserving of attention and care. Because like I was saying, much of the attention is on the baby that died. But you know, for many, they consider themselves as having a baby. And for many, they also may not, they may feel very much this was a pregnancy, this wasn't a baby, which is okay. So I wanted to really hold space for a spectrum of meaning that people may have for their pregnancy. Well, You know, at the end of the day, still honoring that we've all been pregnant, we've all gone through labor and birth in some fashion, and we are all post-birth, we're all postpartum, and your body needs a lot of support, a lot of self-tending and all tending from the community and from society to help get us back, um, let's say back to where we were. Because once you're pregnant and then are postpartum, your body never returns completely to the way it was. Physically at least, and then in other, other ways, mentally, emotionally, but help get you to a place of feeling more at ease. And if I might pause us, Brian, I actually, I meant to ask you if I could open our, our time today with the opening of my book. I know you went through David's training, if I remember, if I read that correctly. Yeah, so I did it as well. I was in the first cohort. Okay, were you in that as well?

No, it was later.

Later. Okay. So something that David did during our calls, I don't know if he did every call, and for listeners and the folks viewing this, David Kessler is who I'm referring to. He is a prominent grief educator and author of many books. So something that David would do at the beginning of some of our calls was to do a moment of silence. And that really left a deep impression. And as I was writing my book, that came back to me often, and I knew I wanted to include something like that for this kind of loss, which is so often unseen, not validated, because it's so invisible. If it's some— if you've not gone much— if you've not just say much, I mean, like for a long time, you may not visibly be pregnant to others. So there's that. And then like you were saying earlier, Brian, most people don't realize like what it means to go through a pregnancy loss. It often happens at home if it's early. So yeah, if that's okay, I'd like to—

Absolutely, sure.

Just kind of slow us down and read that.

Sure.

So this is called a moment of silence. Before we begin, I invite you to pause for a moment of silence to honor yourself and your experience of womb loss, for they are deserving of such a moment. If it feels resonant, place one or both hands over your heart and either soften your gaze or close your eyes. Allow the silence to last as long as you need it to, maybe for just a few breaths, maybe for a few minutes. And as you take this moment to be in silence, you might consider all those who are also listening to this interview or watching. You are not alone in your pain. When you are ready, allow your breath to help return you to the present, slowly opening your eyes if they are closed. And it is with the spirit of reverence that we begin.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Yeah, it's really, um, you said important for us to try to understand when it comes to grief that it can be complicated, you know. It's— and, and we can be going through multiple things at the same time. So as I said, you've really opened up my eyes to that even right now, because I know some people view, as you said, a— the loss of a child pre-birth as, as a losing a child. Some people view it as, well, it's just the end of a pregnancy, it wasn't a child yet. And I think both views are valid. I think is what you were saying, and I agree with that. But to understand also that the physical thing that you're going through with the postpartum and the grief all on top of each other, and then these invisible losses, which I'm starting to hear more and more about, which I'm really glad that we're starting to honor these things because we— I think it's really important when we're in grief to feel heard, to not feel alone. And sometimes people will dismiss these losses because they don't understand them. So I think you're bringing light to this, just that in itself is very helpful.

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to in the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people.

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Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there.

Thank you, thank you. Yes, I couldn't agree more. I've been doing a handful of in-person interviews. My book launched in October, October '22. And yeah, Brian D Smith, I feel some emotions coming up. It's It's something to be with people in person, as powerful as connecting virtually can be. Absolutely. Because like the grief groups I lead, they're virtual and they're powerful. That said, to be in person with people, there's a chemistry that's so palpable. And I recently did a book tour event. In Pasadena, California. And, you know, the stories that I'm hearing when people come up to me afterward, oh, it makes the agony of writing a book so worth it, so worth it to have them feel seen, like you were saying, to feel heard. And something that I actually did very much want to bring up with you, because we are both people of color, Well, maybe I shouldn't assume, but that's how I identify visibly, at least. So I guess you might. Yeah, the response other people of color, like such a strong visceral response to seeing someone who looks like them as the author of a book on this. And actually, this might be a good lead-in. There's a short story. I open each chapter, each of the 10 chapters, with a story of comfort because much of the content online and in books on pregnancy and infant loss— and that's what I meant when I said womb loss in the moment of silence— womb loss being a way to really honor and center those of us who experience this with our body. To identify the organ in us that's, you know, enduring this. So yeah, I open each chapter with a story meant to honor womb loss, but in a way that's unlike what you see in the world, in content in general, because so much of it can be re-traumatizing, going into like all the details of a person's womb loss. And I know for me personally, I've not really gravitated towards memoir, towards those— that kind of writing, because my trauma felt like enough to carry. All the while, I acknowledge that that can be really affirming for others, but for me, not so much, or it just felt overwhelming. So my— the stories in my book are meant to acknowledge womb loss, but by way of stories that show you what's possible for you. That the, like the story I shared earlier in our call about my doctor in my first pregnancy loss experience, I share that story so that others might know the kind of care they deserve from healthcare providers is to feel like they're not rushed to make decisions, to feel like your provider really sees and honors this very sacred and reverent moment of you finding out that your pregnancy has ended. So there's a, there's a story actually, I would love to share that honors my Filipino American heritage, if that's okay, Brian.

Absolutely. Please.

Yeah. Okay. And this is a story that many at my in-person events have really, really resonated with. Late one night, years after experiencing my womb losses, I came across an online essay by Motherly that shifted something deep inside me. In this powerfully heartfelt and heartbreaking letter from a mother to her unborn child, the author writes, "The English language refers to the incident as a quote-unquote miscarriage." The Filipino and Bicol languages, on the other hand, labeled me as a woman with an unborn child, as "nakunan," "nakuanan." These roughly translate into, quote, "someone from whom something was taken away," end quote. The moment I read this, it was as if time stopped. Despite being the daughter of Filipino immigrants immersed in the sounds of my family's mix of English and Tagalog,. These terms were new to me. And yet, these words spoke to a deep truth within me. My doctors and midwives reassured me that, as with a majority of early pregnancy losses, my losses were likely due to chromosomal abnormalities and therefore beyond my control. Yet part of me still carried feelings of remorse since it was my body that had been carrying these pregnancies. And because it was my body, it seemed there was more I could have done. The language used to describe my kind of loss seemed to imply as much, and that the onus lay solely with me, especially with the prefix "mis-", meaning wrongly or badly. Miscarriage, miscarried, lost. I had a miscarriage. I miscarried. I lost my babies. As if I had made a mistake when I had a miscarriage. As if I had done something bad when I miscarried. As if I had been irresponsible or absent-minded when I lost my babies. As if they could be found if I just tried hard enough, though they were in my body all along. When I found this essay, or when it found me, I sat staring at it for a long moment. And in that pause, the part of me that carried remorse came to the surface. She read and reread those three sentences, awed that such words existed to describe her, awed by what felt like a gentle reframing of her loss. She too was Nkunàn. I too was Nkwá:nàn. In these words, we felt seen. We felt known. And with that, we felt relief as the edges of our remorse softened. I was and am someone with unborn children. I was and am someone from whom something was taken away. These words from the languages of my ancestors found me and held me when my native tongue seemed to blame me. It was a powerful, quiet moment that left a deep impression.

Wow.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's, that's so, it's very powerful. And it's so important. I think that language is so important. And, you know, we took David's course, and we know, as people in grief, the language is really, really important. And I love that, you know, something from whom something was taken, because I would— we know with guilt there's all kinds of emotions that can come with guilt, and, and one of them can be, uh, or with grief, I mean, it can be guilt. It comes a lot of times right alongside. And as a woman, you know, responsible as you feel like for, for that, the life of that child, I would imagine there's a certain amount of guilt that can come along with that. And it's really— it's important that we unders— help people understand that you're not to blame, you know. We all do the best that we can, and sometimes things are out of our control. So I love that sharing that how I think sometimes the English language just kind of gets things wrong and sometimes going back to those ancestral things can be very healing for people.

Yes, absolutely. And for those who are not Filipino, I hope that reading that can encourage folks to think outside our norm, to look to other cultures that are their own, or maybe they feel connection to it though they're not blood connected, right? That there's possibility and that we don't have to settle for what is or what is not. We can create a new language. And there's a, yeah, there's a whole section here entitled A Softer Shared Language. Where I try to plant that seed that let's revisit how we talk about pregnancy and infant loss and how can we instill a sense of both humanity and reverence. Because the reverence piece, Brian, I feel like is one of the things I'm most proud of. That in pregnancy in general, whether it ends with living children or not, that we need more reverence for just how hard it is to conceive, how hard it is for a body to gestate, to go through labor, to go through birth. Even if you— if— even if someone chooses to get an epidural or pain medication, it's still so hard. And then to recover after, um, it is—

it's a process. And I think in our our culture, we don't honor women enough. I mean, we, we don't— we live in a very male-oriented culture. I think it's reflected in our language. Uh, I think it's affected— it's reflected in the way that we view pregnancy. And I don't think we do honor, you know— and, and of course, none of us men have ever been through it, so, uh, we, we can't know exactly what it's like. But I can only imagine how, how difficult it is. And we know that it does take a toll on the body. And you said something really important earlier even if you have a quote normal pregnancy, your body never goes back to exactly the way it was before. And I know that any woman that's had a child, you know, can attest to that. So that whole process, and then experiencing the womb loss on top of that, you're going through all the same things that a mother who has a living child would have gone through, compounded with, with the grief. So I think it's, you know, We need to give people space for that because I think we would think, and we know this, you and I hear a lot, you know, "Oh, aren't you over that by now?" And you might say, "Well, you just had a miscarriage, you know, you could try again," you know, all those things that people say to really minimize instead of honoring how difficult it is.

Absolutely. And as you were talking, Brian, I thought a number of things. One, another Another aspect of being both postpartum and bereaved that catches so many by surprise is that you might lactate. And even if you don't think you're that far along enough to do so, you might, your body may already have been producing milk and that will come out. And it could be so shocking, so shocking, especially I think, especially in pregnancies that were so wanted or that people have spent years and so much money and effort trying to get to that point of being pregnant, to then, to then have milk come in and out of your body, um, with no, no one to give it to, uh, it's another layer. And so, um, actually what I do in each chapter too is end with a section I call, um, offering from the collective. So I reached out to a number of health and healing arts practitioners who I have personally, uh, I've benefited from their care, or I've followed for many years, and I asked them all 3 questions: What is your modality? How can it help the reader— our reader? And what is a self-tending practice for the reader? And let me back it up and define self-tending. So I wrote this book in the midst of the pandemic. I spent 4 years writing. I sold it in 2020, and I wrote it in the last 4 years, and it's finally out. But the pandemic really showed me, Brian D Smith, the importance of being able to offer ourselves the things that we may normally look to others for. Because with my first pregnancy, I'll tell you, I did it right. I, I saw my acupuncturist, my massage therapist, my chiropractor once a week. My massage was 90 minutes every week because I knew I knew I needed support, um, to, to endure those 9 months and then after. Um, same with my second, and then with my third, my third living child, which would have been my 1, 2, 3, 4, 5th pregnancy. I didn't have that because we were in the pandemic, and I— such a stark difference. And I feel like it's taken me— it's taking me so much longer to recover to go through my postpartum healing because I didn't have that support because we, you know, we sheltered in place and all that. And so it was important to me to really impress upon the reader that as great as it is to resource ourselves from our community, we can also offer ourselves tending. More than self-care, self-tending, I think, offers a reverence, a tone of reverence When you think tending, you often think like tending a garden. It's something slow, it's something healing even. You connect with nature, Mother Nature, and so self-tending. So going back to the offering from the collective, it's one of the parts of the book I'm most excited about because readers can, in that moment, already have another tool for their toolbox for for meeting the part of, part of them that's grieving. And so one of these offerings is from a certified lactation consultant, a friend of mine, and she offers this beautiful ritual for grieving the loss of the lactation, the breastfeeding journey that you may have wanted. It includes if you decided to, if you lactated and decided to pump and/or hand express the milk and save it, you can take that milk and either have someone else or you do it one hand at a time, just pour it over your hands as you're gently washing your hands. And then that milk can flow onto the earth if you're outside or into a bowl. And doing that very intentionally, maybe setting up candles or some music and really taking a moment to slow down and to feel, to feel what you feel and to honor what you feel. Because isn't that the heart of, of what we do as grief educators, is to encourage that slowing down and that softening?

Yeah.

So that, so that folks can feel what they feel and feel the response they feel to the loss, which is— that's grief, is what you feel in response to a loss that's meaningful to you. And so when you were saying earlier, yeah, people tell us, why aren't you over? Well, for as long as we're feeling a response to something that's meaningful to us, to a loss that's meaningful, we'll be grieving. That's grief. And, um, yeah, there's no timeline. We may always feel something in response to that loss, and that's okay. And it can transform, as we know. From deep, deep debilitating pain to more bittersweet remembering. And so, yeah, so offering from the collective closes out each chapter. And, you know, I really modeled the book a lot on the work I do with Our House as a a grief support group leader. We follow the same structure for each session. So we open with a question. Often it's, "How has your grief been since we last met?" Because we meet every 2 weeks. And then sometimes we have an activity, sometimes it's kind of an open conversation. And we, at least my co-leader and I, we will do a transitional activity towards the end of group to help transition us from the heaviness of everything that's been shared to the end of group, and then we end with a poem. And then we end, we close it out by encouraging group members to be gentle with yourselves and to consider doing your own transitional activity to ease you back into your life. And I think that structure, because as you mentioned, I'm also trauma-informed in my care, I'm having consistency can offer a sense of safety because we know what to expect. So our group members know what to expect. So I brought that into the book and how I structured each chapter the same way. It opens with a story meant to offer comfort and help you know what's possible for your healing. Um, it has a little bit of information on the topic. Follow— it's just a short paragraph followed by a grounding practice. Short paragraph, grounding practice. Short paragraph grounding practice, and then a postpartum recipe, because there are many and a growing number of postpartum resources that share recipes that are conducive to your healing. But most of the postpartum resources out there assume you have a living child, so it's going to have a different tone. It's going to be more celebratory. It's going to have tips on, like, for example, common one: hand your, hand your baby off to your mom so you can take a shower. Well, if you're postpartum bereaved, that's probably the last thing you want to read. So I include recipes, um, and then, um, yeah, the offering from the collective. And then actually a phrase that I would love to share As this chapter comes to a close, I invite you to pause for a few breaths and with the closing verse to help you transition gently back into your life or to the next part of the book. And if anything in this chapter activated a strong response, what we normally refer to as triggers or being triggered, consider doing something more to feel grounded. This may be an act of self-tending or reaching out to someone you trust for support. Honor what you need in this moment. And the closing verse that repeats throughout the book: I am here as I am, and so it is. You are here and we are with you. It was important for me to bring in the we, the collective, certainly the collective of womb loss survivors, but the collective of grievers, because we all know how embodied grieving is, grieving and mourning. And so yeah, so that refrain is repeated to remind readers that, or listeners if they're doing the audiobook, you're not alone. And that's so often what we say, right, in grief is, you're not alone.

Yeah, it can be very isolating. And we can feel like, you know, no one understands what we're going through. Again, especially with what we consider to be invisible losses. So as you said, you may not have even presented as pregnant. You may not have gotten to that point where people don't, you know, may not have even known that you're going through this loss. But to be seen, to be felt, to be heard is really, really important in grief. To have it acknowledged that we understand, you know, what you're going through. And this is, while it's unique in a sense, it's also universal in a sense that we all go through some sort of a loss. And there's no, there's no shame in it. Um, and, and often there can be, you know, as I said, people like, you know, let's get, let's get back to it, you know, why aren't you back at work yet? Why aren't you, you know, if you've got other kids that you've got to tend to. Oh yes, yes, all those things. And people, maybe for the rest of us that are listening and learning, excuse me, how can we support someone going through this and let them know that we, we understand or are trying to understand at least?

Yeah, great question, Brian D Smith. So something I've been so, so impressed and touched by is I'm hearing from folks who have not experienced pregnancy and infant loss, womb loss themselves, or have— they don't have a partner who's experienced it. They really have— don't have a super strong connection to the topic, but they've listened to my audiobook. When my second living child, she attends a school we made friends with this particular classmate and their parents. The dad, he told me the week my book came out, he said, "I bought your audiobook. We don't have a connection to it, but I'm interested always in learning different things." And then a week later, Brian, he told me he finished it. My husband hasn't even read my book in full or listened to my audiobook, but he did. And he said he wanted to because he wanted to be prepared to offer support. And I had someone DM me on Instagram not long after my book launched saying his sister had experienced a late-term pregnancy loss, and he bought a book for her and for him, like 2 copies, and he was reading the book so he could support her. So that's something that folks can do is Whether you already know this topic intimately or not, you can listen to the audiobook, you can read the book. I've been so, so feeling such gratitude because the book has been making its way to folks who are really advocating for it on a systems level. So I will be doing a training for a healthcare practice in the Bay Area virtually later this month. A friend whose sister is an OB up there told her sister about the book, so she bought the book, appreciates what it offers, and then asked me if I would do this training for all the OBs in her practice, the midwives, the nurses, the L&D nurses. That's systems changes, Brian D Smith, right?

Yeah.

In this one— yeah, this one hour in a few weeks, I get to do just It's a real quick training, but knowing that after that hour they could see patients and they can enter those rooms with reverence, with a softer demeanor, with feeling more confident that they can offer care that's both grief-informed and trauma-informed. Right. So yeah, if folks listening, folks watching are interested in, in the book, you get a copy and you resonate with it, if, if you are a healthcare provider, if you know ways we can get it into hospitals, into birthing centers, into med schools, because that's another thing I bring up, Brian D Smith. So my training is as a marriage and family therapist, and we did like no, no learning about maternal mental health. And pregnancy is actually the most like vulnerable time for birthing women and birthing people when it comes to mental wellness. So it's really, it's, yeah. And then let alone perinatal bereavement, we don't cover it. You have to go out of your way to get this education. And the same is unfortunately the case with nurses and OBs, like the people you expect to, um, to know how to care for those who are postpartum and bereaved. That education is actually not easy. For folks to access. So if we can get this into programs, I know of at least one doula and one prenatal yoga teacher who are making the book required reading for their certification. That's systems changes. So for anyone listening or watching, if, if you feel called, you know, resonate and you feel called to help advocate, I appreciate it. And just some quick tips, um, simply saying, "I'm so sorry for your loss." I, I often tell people that you can start there, that because acknowledgement, even as simple as that one phrase, can be so powerful and so healing.

Yeah.

So, "I'm so sorry for your loss." And then leaving space for the other person, the person you're saying that to, leaving space open for them to take up room, to share if they feel called to or not, and offering that quality attention, you know, especially now when we're so— like, it's hard not to see someone not looking down at their phone at a dinner table, like at a restaurant, or, you know, we struggle with that too as a family with 3 small children and screen time. But I think that's such a gift, is to give your quality, undivided quality attention to someone else in offering your condolences.

Yeah, I think that's, that's also something that's really difficult for people when we're— because we're not taught how to deal with people in grief. We're not taught how to, how to— the language. And even after all the years I've been doing this, I still sometimes feel because we feel like we have to fix things for people, right? And just starting with, "I'm sorry for your loss," and leaving space for the person that's going through it to then fill that in and respond, as you said, or not. They may choose to share, they may not choose to share. But just that simple phrase, I find, is probably— if there was one most effective thing, I would think that was probably it to say.

Yeah, I'm tearing up. It really is. It really is.

It's, um, it's, you know, the thing is, um, and it, you know, I'm really glad you're bringing this up. And, you know, we, when we were, I was going through David's certification a little bit after you did, I was really surprised by all the professionals that were in there, doctors and nurses and, you know, people. And they're like, we don't get this training, how to deal with grief in our medical training, because we're so focused on the physical. We're so focused on the body, and we don't, we don't teach people, how do I take care of the spirit? How do I leave space for this? How do I, um, so even though, you know, it's not something that I'm going to experience personally, it's something I'm very interested in because I might, first of all, might come across someone who's been through it, um, and then I can, I can at least, you know, have some idea of how to relate. And just an understanding a little bit more about, you know, just the, the basic thing you brought up at the very beginning just the process that the body goes through. You know, a lot of us had no clue. I had no clue that what people— women went through that. I don't know what I thought happened, but it certainly wasn't that.

Yeah, yeah, I didn't either, Brian, until I went through it. Until I went through it. Um, and you know something that's coming up for me because I see the beautiful photo of your daughter in the background is, um, you know, the power of the work we're doing. Like, if you read my acknowledgement section, it's long. It's really long. And I needed to cut down my word count, but I just couldn't budge on my acknowledgement section because so many believe in what I'm doing with the book, that so many believe in the validity of this kind of grief for this type of loss, and the need to help survivors feel seen, held, and honored. And so many, Brian D Smith, have experienced pregnancy loss or were touched by it in maybe like their partner. And so I wanted to acknowledge that in the acknowledgement section. And you'll see I say that the memories of our children live on through our work, through this book, through your work, like their legacy is so powerful through the work we're doing, right?

Yeah.

So even, even as short as their time on Earth was, that their impact is so, so powerful, so profound.

Yeah, I, I believe that no life is, is wasted, no life is lost, no matter how, how short it may have been, whether they set foot on the planet or, or not. Um, I, I don't know what your thoughts of this, but I believe in, I believe in soul planning. And I believe that— I know that I, I— this isn't a belief. I know that souls can have an impact without even stepping onto the Earth. Um, there's a guy named Christian Sundberg who I interviewed for my podcast who has these pre-life memories, and he talks about in one he was going to come in and he panicked at the last minute and didn't. So it resulted in his mother, uh, the, the fetus's mother having a miscarriage. But then when that fetus went through the life review, they saw the impact that their, their life, even though it was never on the planet, had on the mother and the family and everything else. So, and these ripples are not— we might think of it as a negative thing because it's grief, but it can also cause— it could also cause growth. And it could cause someone to be inspired to do the work you're doing. If you only had your 3 children that were born alive—

Oh, right. I wouldn't be here with you today.

Right.

Exactly. Exactly. And whether with the grief support center work I do, the book, it's often this feeling too of, you know, I don't want to have gone through that pain for nothing. Like, I want it to mean something.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm happy with how the book turned out. My publisher was— I know you've interviewed a few folks who've gone through Sounds True, and I felt held by them. I felt so supported when I needed extensions. They were great because I got pregnant soon after I sold the book to them. And it was hard. It was really hard, Brian D Smith, to write about pregnancy and infant loss. While pregnant, you know, because I didn't want— I didn't want to embody that, the grief, so prominently, right, while trying to protect the baby. Because like you, I also resonate with energetics and spiritual aspects of life. And so I got an extension. And then, then I was acutely postpartum, and I said, I can't write— I can't write the book still. And I get— well, I mean, I was often working on it, but just not full force. And they gave me another extension. And then by the third summer, they're like, "Eileen, you gotta finish it." I was like, "I'm ready. I'm ready." It's been hard to gestate for 4 years, this book. But yeah, it really came together. And I felt, Brian D Smith, I felt very much the presence of those on the other side, those not here with us, those who in their life, they experienced womb loss, but they didn't get to feel heard. They didn't get to feel seen, they didn't get to feel honored. Yeah, I felt their presence as I was writing this, and I think it comes through very nicely. And the dedication, if I could read that real quick: For all who know the depths of pregnancy and infant loss, may you feel seen, may you feel heard, may you feel held. Here and across the veil, may you be known. Yeah, yeah, I dedicate it to them too.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I think that's— I, I think— I know that's so important, um, and we can do healing of evil, even people across the veil, as they, as they look in on us, you know, from beyond and inspire us to, uh, and, and cheer us on as we're doing the work that we're doing. So You know, thank you to your two children that, that did that, that work, you know, that, that, that coming in for that period of time. We don't know the impact a life is going to have while we're here. My daughter was, was here for 15 years, and some people would view that as tragically short. I, I don't, um, I miss her, but I know that that was, that was her time to be here, and that her moving, moving on when she did, it was allowed other things to unfold. Um, so we can, we can take that comfort for those people who have had a child that didn't come into the world, that it doesn't mean their life doesn't matter or didn't matter. Doesn't matter because I said they're— they just— that was their plan for this time around.

Yeah, I imagine that can offer so much comfort to listeners. Absolutely.

Is there anything about the book or about your work that we haven't talked about that you would like to talk about?

Something I touched on, but I'll kind of expound is— Sure. So I mentioned the structure and it being trauma-informed in the way that I include stories meant to be comforting, not necessarily activating of trauma. I want to say too that that was very intentional, along with this overall structure of a short paragraph of information followed by a grounding practice, because in therapy we often talk about titration. It's this idea that you, you touched on a sense— on what's sensitive, what feels big and hard and painful, just a little bit, and then you come back to a sense of grounding so it's not overwhelming for you. So the book embodies that, and I hope that folks will feel safe. That's the reason I did that, was to help people feel safe to gift this, because so many books that are out there are wonderful. Excuse me, it's all the tearing up today with you got me giving the sniffles. I want folks— okay, so much of what already is out there is either very medical, which can be helpful, or religious, which can be helpful for those who resonate with that faith. But there isn't actually anything that's more like, more or less broadly spiritual, not religious, specific, based in a specific religion. And and one that doesn't share a lot of really hard details, um, and one that goes at a pace that embodies a pace that, that honors this, this idea of titration. So I wanted to offer the world something that they would feel safe gifting to someone. Um, yeah, yeah.

Well, I can tell you've accomplished that, um, even as you describe the book and the way the chapters are laid out and everything. And I think That is, we can tend to, again, want to plow forward a lot of times, you know, it used to be very medical or very prescriptive. And even in the book, you know, you're giving people time and space to feel seen and to feel heard. And to do those grounding steps in between as these things might be activating, that we have to say, okay, let's be, let's be gentle with how we go through this and understand that it is a process. Um, and I like what you talk about, you know, that the tending is, you know, important in pregnancy and maybe other times when we're going in life. I, you know, I tell people as we're going through grief in general, it's a really important time to take care of yourself. It becomes even more important than at other times. And so to slow down and to be gentle And understand that wherever you are, that's, that's okay. That's where you're meant to be. And I can imagine, you know, a lot of times women are getting this from probably even their partners, you know, why aren't you, why aren't you over this yet? Why is it still, you know, why are you still going through this? And other people, again, not even recognize, because we all, we've heard about postpartum, but we don't associate that with someone who hasn't had a live birth. So just again, that little bit of education maybe will give people, you know, some understanding to, to give themselves a break too, and maybe advocate themselves and say, hey, this is what I've gone through. This is, this is a real thing. This is not just, you know, me being dramatic. And yeah, and you do get attached to that, to that baby, even though we may have never seen the baby. But I, I know mothers have a special bond with that, that, that baby that they're carrying, and there's, there's an attachment there, and there's a, there's a real loss, even though we may have never seen that baby physically.

Yeah. And something too, Brian D Smith, is helping folks know you can, rather than feeling pressured to get through your grief, to move forward, that giving yourself permission to simply be with what is without any pressure to do anything. To transform it into something, to get over it or to get through it.

Yeah. Yeah.

Can we just be with where we're at right now and acknowledge that? Yeah, acknowledge what is true for us in this moment. And I love what you said at some point in our talk is we're trying our best. All we can do is the best we can in a given moment. And something I say in the book is maybe that looks like simply taking your next breath.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Eileen, we're coming to the end of our time. So I thank you so much for sharing this with us today. Remind people of the name of your book and where people can find you. Sure.

And I can show it. So my book is called To Tend and to Hold: Honoring Our Bodies, Our Needs, and Our Grief Through Pregnancy and Infant Loss. You can find it all anywhere books are sold. I encourage you to check out your indie bookstores or Amazon too, and if you do Amazon, leave a review. It's sad how like the algorithm is, and if you type in miscarriage or stillbirth or pregnancy loss, the book doesn't come up because there aren't any— you know, you need the reviews and you need reviews with photos or videos to help boost it. So on Amazon, I'm hoping that folks can do that. And you can find me, I'm mainly On Instagram, as far as social media is concerned, @oursacredwomen, O-U-R-S-A-C-R-E-D women, W-O-M-E-N. And then my website is ayleensantosrossetti.com.

Awesome. Again, thank you for being here. Thank you for what you're doing. Uh, it's great to meet you today.

Thank you, Brian. I appreciate you.

Enjoy your afternoon.

You too.

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