The Million Stages of Grief: Surviving the Unthinkable with Michael Reed | EP 465

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, I'm Brian D Smith. I want to welcome you to Grief 2 Growth. And whether this is your first time joining me, you've been on this journey with me for a while, I'm grateful that you're here. This podcast is about navigating life's most difficult challenges and seeking to understand the deeper questions of our experience. Who are we? Why are we here? What happens when we die? My goal is to help you grow through grief and come out stronger on the other side. And today I'm honored to welcome Michael Reed. Michael is the author of the powerful book, The Million Stages of Grief. Michael's story is one of almost unimaginable loss. He lost his wife and daughters in the tragic 2016 Gatlinburg fires. But from that devastating moment, Michael's emerged with the message of honesty, of resilience, and of hope. And unlike the widely accepted 5 stages of grief, Michael believes that grief is far more complex and deeply personal. So in this episode, we're going to talk about what he's learned about healing, faith, and finding meaning in pain. We'll also discuss how breaking the silence around grief can help others heal, why we need to let go of timelines and expectations when it comes to mourning, and how faith can become both a refuge and a challenge during life's darkest seasons. Michael has become a voice for those who are often left to suffer in silence. His work through speaking, writing, and building community has touched countless lives. And today he brings that same compassion and insight into our conversation. So whether you're grieving a loss yourself, whether you're walking along someone who's experienced a loss, or you're trying to understand the role that pain plays in our growth, I hope this episode speaks to you. And don't forget, after the episode, join us on this on my Substack at grieftogrowth.substack.com. And we'll carry on the conversation there. So with that, I'd like to welcome Michael Reed.

Good morning, how are you?

Good, good to have you here, Michael. Um, I want to say I'm so sorry for your loss. Um, so tell me about your wife and tell me about your daughters.

Oh, first I want to say I'm sorry for your loss as well. Um, we, we belong to a club that nobody should ever belong to, um, and, uh But we'll talk about that more here in a little bit. Um, my, my wife is forever 34. Uh, her name, her name is Constance. Um, we met randomly one night. She was my neighbor and I didn't know it, and she needed to borrow a phone, and there was a knock on my door, and the second I opened the door, I just knew. I, I, I can't explain it. I didn't even know her name yet. I just, I knew that was the one. Um, and so I invited her in and we spent like half the night talking. And then the next night she came over and I made her my awesome spaghetti, thinking that could win her over. Uh, it didn't because I'm not that good of a cook. Um, but we were inseparable ever since. And, um, she, she was my best friend. Um, blessed me with 3 of the most amazing children you could ever ask for. Um, my son is now 24. Uh, he's got a beard that's bigger than me. Um, it's amazing how quickly they grow up. Um, I'm proud of him. He's a good kid. He's got a great heart. Um, And, and then there's my girls. Uh, Chloe is forever 12 and Lily is forever 9. Um, Chloe, Chloe brought out the best in everybody. Her heart She was my princess from the second she was born, um, and she knew it, and, and she took advantage of it.

Yeah.

Um, growing up, she used to tell people that she's gonna marry me when she grows up, and I, I tried to explain to her that that's illegal in just about every state, but she didn't care. She still wanted to marry Daddy. Um, And we were inseparable. I didn't find this out until after the fires, but she was in school one day and her teacher just made the comment to the class that she was having a hard day, having a bad day. And the next day, Chloe came into class and said, "This is my favorite ladybug stuffed animal, and I know you were having a bad day, so I want you to have it." Wow. And she gave it to her, and, um, that was right before the fires, um, because after the fires, that teacher found me and gave me that ladybug back.

Wow.

Uh, and that's all I have of Chloe. And, uh, Lily, you want to talk about sass? She had that perfect hand on the hip. She had the perfect snap of her fingers. She was a diva through and through. And, uh, oh, she kept us on our toes. She would, she would get up in the morning and get dressed for school in something that she knew darn well I would never let her wear to school. And she'd come waltzing out of the bedroom like, "What do you think, Daddy?" And I'm like, "Turn right around and put some normal clothes on." And she'd just laugh and laugh and laugh and then go back in and change her clothes. And, um, you know, it's easy to say that they were my world, but the truth is they still are my world. Um, the people that we lose never leave us. And it's been almost 9 years since the fires, and I've learned a lot of lessons along the way. And, and that was my reason for writing the book, was because we don't talk about grief enough, especially men. Um, and, and there's no shame in crying. There's no shame in being sad. There's no shame in being broken. And, and I think it's almost taboo to talk about it. And I found through my journey that I have to talk about it or I'm gonna die. I, I was suicidal for years. The only thing that stopped me was my son. Um, there was just so much built up in my head that it was like a pressure cooker. And I didn't know how to release any of that tension other than to start writing down my feelings.

Wow.

So one day I just, I got up and I grabbed my phone and I just went to my notes section and I just started writing down how I felt that day. And I put the date at the top and I saved it so that 6 months from then I could go back and read it again and say, okay, this is how I felt on this day. Have I made any progress yet? And 9 times out of 10, it was no.

Oh, wow.

Um, so, so one day I, I just posted one of those things on Facebook. I just needed to kind of get it out, and, um, the response was overwhelming. Um, The, the one line that I hear the most from people is, "That's exactly how I felt. I just didn't know how to put it into words." And that's kind of what started my journey towards the book. Um, but in 2023 came kind of an epiphany. Um, the anniversary of the fires is November 28th, and every November I crash. It's not just a crash on the day of the anniversary, it's a crash for the entire month. Um, I still have horrible PTSD. I still have horrible triggers of the leaves falling and the wind blowing and the trees swaying, and all of that is happening in November. And I know that date of the 28th is coming soon. And in 2023, I ended up in the hospital, um, and I thought for sure I was having a heart attack. And I laid there for hours, um, and I'll never forget it. The doctor walked in the room and he sat down next to me and he held my hand and he said, your heart's fine. And I realized, while my heart is fine, it's broken.

Yeah.

And that was my wake-up call. On the anniversary of the fires that year, I went to the memorial. I always lay out flowers and I always lay out a little gift for the girls. And I had a long talk with them and I said, I have got to do something to change what this date on the calendar means, because if I have to go through another year of this torture, I'm not gonna make it.

Wow.

And I, I sat down and I closed my eyes, and I'll get into this part later, but they come to me as different things. My wife comes to me as a butterfly. Uh, she had a butterfly tattoo on her chest. Chloe comes to me as a ladybug. Ironic that the stuffed animal of the ladybug is what I've got, but that was her nickname since birth. The first outfit I ever picked out for her was a little ladybug onesie. And then while Constance was in labor, there was actually a ladybug on the ceiling. So we always called Chloe Ladybug. And Lily comes to me as an owl. So I'm sitting there at the memorial and I closed my eyes for a minute and I opened them. And as soon as I opened them, a butterfly flew right past my face. And I just knew, I knew they were listening. And so I closed my eyes again, and I swear to you, in the breeze, I heard Chloe say to me, "Daddy, it's time to do the work." Hmm. And she was right.

Um, I—

for the first 2 years after the fire, I didn't even function. I did absolutely— I was just catatonic. The first 6 months after the fire, I don't even remember anything at all. And as time passed, I started to remember more and more of the trauma and everything. And she was right. I started— I needed to start doing the work. We never move on, but we have to move forward.

Yeah.

And I spent all those years in the darkness because I thought that was the only way I could keep them close to me. And what I realized that day was to keep them close to me, I had to step out of the darkness. Wow. So I wiped my tears, I went home that day, and I enrolled in college. How can I help other people with their pain if I don't understand my own? So I'm now a junior at GCU getting a degree in behavioral science, um, but it wasn't enough. For years, people asked me to write a book, and I said, all right. Girls, I'm going to go to college for you, and I'm going to write this book for you. And however far you want this to go, it is in your hands. Wow. It's all yours. Wow. Uh, so I published it on April Fool's Day. I did it on purpose because I always used to prank Constance every year on April Fool's Day, and man, I would get her good sometimes. Um, but, but I picked that day on purpose just as a little nod to them. And the response has just been absolutely unbelievable. I never knew it would go this far. It's won an International Impact Book Award. I've done a few book signings that have been very, very successful. It shot up to number 2 on Amazon. I couldn't crack number 1. I tried so hard. But it's the feedback that means the most to me. You know, we don't know what the person we're talking to is going through. And I think if we all stepped back and just listen to people. We could learn so much.

Mhm. Mhm.

There's so much division in this world, but what I've learned and what the book teaches is we can have an ability to use the things that have hurt us the most to actually do something good. Mhm. And that's my purpose now. My purpose is to spread this message as far as I can, to start a conversation that's hard to start, to get people to understand that it's okay to not be okay. Yeah. You just can't live there forever. So that, that's how it all began.

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. There's so much you said in there that's so important. You know, one of the things you talked about, we don't talk about grief much, and I think especially as men. And so you were, if I understood you, you were kind of like, at first you weren't expressing it, but it felt like, like it like kind of needed to come out. Would that be— is that accurate?

I held it in for years, and it was almost honestly like an out of sight, out of mind type of thing. Like, if I didn't have to talk about it, maybe they're still here and maybe it was just a nightmare. And then just one day I woke up and I'm like, I want to talk about them because they're everything to me.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I used to be afraid. Of breaking down if I would talk about them. And now it's if I don't talk about them, I break down. They are right here in my heart. They are all around me. They're still guiding me. They're still pushing me. And I promise I would never give up. And every day when I wake up, I look in the mirror. I have a little Post-it note next to my mirror that says, I am enough. And I say to myself, I am enough. And, you know, grief— and another thing that people say to me a lot is, I could never understand your loss. And I cut him off right there. That's not true. Um, and, and this is a big part of the book too. Um, I'm not going to use you as an example because you lost your daughter, but you know, anybody out there listening, if you've lost a pet in your life and that's the only grief you've ever experienced in your life, I'm great that that's the only grief you've ever had, right? But it's the same. It doesn't matter who or when or how or what. Grief is grief. And the tears that you shed when you lost your favorite animal are the same exact tears that I cry today for my wife and my daughters. Mm-hmm. There's no difference because grief is grief.

Yeah.

And it hurts everybody the same. The anxiety and the nauseousness in your stomach and the— the holding back the tears. I do all of that too. And if I can use my hurts to help you with your hurts and to teach you that you have the power to use your hurts to help somebody with their hurts, that is how we change the world.

Yeah.

And, and that's my, that's my purpose. I, I want to change the world.

Yeah, well, you're doing it, and I appreciate that, you know. We do have this tendency to want to compare grief. Sometimes we think ours is worse. Sometimes you think someone else's is worse. And I love what you said, because I have people that come to me that have lost pets, and they're almost ashamed because they're like, well, yes, it was just a cat, or it was just a dog. And I'm like, no, it's, it's the same thing. And I made a mistake one time, I was actually doing— I was on an interview, and I was talking to him, I said, you know, losing a child, like the worst thing ever. And the woman I was interviewing me said, I've lost a child and I've lost my husband. I can tell you that, you know, you can't say losing a child is worse. But when we lose someone so close to us, someone that lives with us, our child, our spouse, we have to find something to hold on to. And I think I heard you say it was for you, it was your son. Because for me, at first, when I lost my dad, I did not want to be here. So I had to find something else to live for. Was that your experience also?

Oh, absolutely. For the first several months, I was in a lot of denial. I truly believed they were on vacation. I don't know where that came from. I have no idea. But I was absolutely convinced they were on vacation and our home was still there. And all I had to do was drive home and they'd be there waiting for me. And, um, I very rarely go to Gatlinburg just because of the trauma that I still have from that night. But one day I drove to where my house was, hoping it would still be there.

Sure.

And, um, it wasn't. Yeah.

And well, that's the thing about grief is it does take time, you know. And, and, and I love you, you talk about a million stages of grief. There, the thing about 5 stages of grief, I don't even have to ask you how you feel about that. I think it's pretty clear. There aren't 5 stages of grief. And a lot of times people want to rush the process. And their friends want them to rush the process. They're like, you should be moving on, you should, you should be at this place, you should be at that place. And I appreciate you telling this, this arc, it took you years, and it's, you know, to integrate this and the brain at first, says, no, this can't be true. You know, I, I would wake up in the morning and think, you know, is this real? Is this really my life?

The original 5 stages of grief were designed for people that were terminally ill. Mhm. If you know you're dying, what stages do you go through? And when you look at it that way, it makes complete sense. The first thing I would think is, "Nope, this is not gonna happen to me." And then when you realize it's gonna happen to me, you get angry about it. And then you're like, "All right, God, there's gotta be a way we can get through this. Let's make a deal somehow." And then you get through the depression part, and then you accept that there's nothing that can be done. That is an excellent model for somebody that is experiencing the final stages of their life. But it is completely irrelevant to when you lose someone.

Yeah.

And I'm not, I'm not trying to change the science. I'm just trying to get people to look at it differently.

Yeah.

Um, there are not 5 stages of grief. There's a million, and they are all intertwined, and they are all in different parts of our head. And our soul and our hearts. And one day this side could pull on you, and one day this side could pull on you. And there's got to be something out there that can help make sense of it. And that's what this book does, is, is I, I share some really raw feelings that, that I experienced. And then I take everything I've learned in college and through my own therapy and through my own experience, and I teach you why you feel those things, and then I teach you the skills to get through those things.

Yeah.

And that, that it's a weird little phrase I came up with, but, but what I've wanted from every person that's read this book is to read one sentence and go, that's how I felt. Nobody has ever validated that for me before until right now. Now I know I'm not crazy.

Yes, I think that's— yeah, I, I think that is so, so important. And I love that you, that you are vulnerable and that you are raw. Um, I remember when my daughter passed, I was, I was listening to a podcast and I heard a woman say, um, I was— her daughter had passed away and she said that she was standing on the corner getting ready to step out in the street and she saw a bus come by and she wanted to step in front of the bus. And that was the first person I had heard express something like that. And it just, it just felt so liberating to me because I'm like, I'm not the only one that feels this way. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

And it's, you know, I— there's endless scenarios. Um, I can't tell you how many people have told me it's time to move on. Mm. Um, I had one person tell me once that I was preventing them from being in heaven because I refused to let them go.

Yes, I've heard that.

And, and I believe people mean well, but I think a lot of times people just don't know what to say. And when they don't know what to say, they say the wrong things.

Yeah, yeah. It's funny you mentioned that because I, I won't out anybody, but somebody who's really well respected in terms of like afterlife stuff and just recently put out a video talking about when children pass away. And one of the things he repeated in this video is that we can hold them back from their progression if we hold on to them too much. And that's just, to me, I— it just bothers me in so many different ways, right? I mean, like, we— first of all, we couldn't hold them. We couldn't hold them here, so why would that be true? And secondly, it just puts guilt on top of you, you know? Who, who's— who does want to let their children go, especially when they're minors?

And I can prove that he's wrong. I told you earlier that they come to me in different forms, right? Lily comes to me as an owl, and she's the strongest sign that I get. And it was about maybe 5 years ago. I was outside on the porch and I look up and there's an owl staring at me. Mm-hmm. And it stared at me for 15 minutes. Mm-hmm. And I know that's not my daughter, but that's my daughter.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, I named her Glory. She has a boyfriend that I named Frank because he's kind of dumb. He doesn't know how to land right. Um, but they've had 4 years of babies every spring that will land in my yard at night and eat the grubs out of the ground. Oh wow. What I, what I didn't realize, and, and what I finally have come to in, in the last year or so, is I've believed all along that those signs were them. Oh, they were God using them to remind me that he's still here. Mhm. And my, my battle with God has been a long one. I've, I've cursed him, I've yelled at him, I completely lost my faith for many years. I haven't stepped foot in church since the memorial service. Um, but I was so angry at him for so long because he knew this was going to happen. He knew when they were born this was going to happen, and that's not fair. Um, But I had to let him back in my life just to have some stability. Yeah. And how are you with language on this podcast?

Oh, feel free, go ahead.

Do you want me to be blunt?

Yeah, please.

Okay. Um, I asked God one day why he didn't let me save my wife, and he said, you did save her. Uh, she had a lot of mental health issues. She, she struggled. Uh, she had been through some horrible things when she was a child. Mm-hmm. Um, and it affected her daily life every day. And he said, you did save her because you held her hand every day until it was time for me to take a hold of it.

Oh wow.

And I said, fuck you. Yeah, why didn't you let me save my girls? And he said, your wife's biggest fear was being alone, so now she never has to be alone again. And I said, fuck you again. And I completely turned my back on God for years. Yeah. And then when I realized that I was getting all of these signs all the time, and it was actually him trying to get through to me saying, I'm still here for you. And, and it came to me as, as one sentence: there's a purpose for your pain. You have to do the work to fulfill that purpose. And, and I believe that's true for all of us. Uh, we all have— we all have hurts. We've all been through things that, that have changed who we are forever, but there's a purpose for it. We were not born on this earth to suffer our entire lives and then die in misery. We have to take the things that we've been through and do something good about it and leave our mark and do our best to leave this world better than it was when we were here. This is just my little way of doing it. Yeah.

So where would you— where are you on your faith journey now?

Probably as far as I'm gonna get. I've never reached that pillar of acceptance. Um, I don't think I'm ever going to. Um, and, and that's a off topic, that, that's part of the reason why I've never gone to a church, because I have believed all along if I step foot in a church, that means I have to accept what God took. Hmm. And I can't do it. And I know God didn't take them, but in our broken minds, he did. Yeah. Because God could have told us, "Hey, there's a fire coming. Get out." Yeah. We had no warning. We had no evacuation. We had no alerts. Nobody knew what was happening. Until it was too late and thousands of people had to flee for their lives. Yeah. Um, why, why didn't, why didn't you tell me, God? Why, why, why? Um, so I, I believe, and, and I know, I know he's in here, and I know on my hard days, he's pushing me forward. And I know that he had a part in us talking today. Um, so I'd say my faith has grown a lot since day one. Mm-hmm. Um, but I'm not a Bible thumper.

Yeah.

You know, I, I I believe being a Christian is doing the right thing when nobody's looking, and it's that simple. Yeah. And that's how I live my life, um, and I think God's okay with that.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you know, the thing is interesting to me, it's like, you know, we have this idea, or some— sometimes religion will place in our head, you know, you should never be angry with God. Um, I talked to a young man not very long ago, his wife had their son and then passed away like a couple days later, you know, from complications from childbirth. And this guy is deeply devout Mormon. And, you know, he had those tough conversations with God, like, you know, why? And it's interesting, even as a Christian, we read our Bibles and you read the Book of Job. And, you know, God never really gives Job an answer, right? He's like, he takes his wife, he takes his kids, he takes his land, he takes, you know, everything else. And We don't have— I don't think we're going to have those answers while we're here. So for me, you know, people ask me about my faith because I was raised as a Christian. And I'm like, my faith is actually stronger than ever. But I don't believe in like, bad things don't happen, because obviously they do. What my thing is like, I just don't understand why. I don't understand why. But I believe there's a reason, kind of like I think what you're saying. And you've taken this terrible, terrible thing that most of us can't imagine anything worse, and you said, I'm going to turn this into something with purpose. And I'm looking at your certificates and your things behind you, and you're, you're in college and you're, you're teaching and you're reaching people. So you, you've taken this and you've transformed it into something that's helping a lot of people.

I want to make them proud.

Yeah, yeah.

And I know, I know they're smiling down. I know they're holding me. I know they're guiding me every step of the way. And that actually brings me peace. Mhm. And I've said this for a long time too. I believe that I'm actually closer to them now than I ever was when they were on this earth.

Yeah.

Because all I got to do is close my eyes and I see them. Mm-hmm. All I got to do is say, hey, Chloe, are you there? And she's here. That eternal love and that maternal and paternal love never goes away. And you know, there, there's, there's parts that I've still never processed. I've never gone through— I'm never going to see a prom or a wedding day. I, I, I can't I can't go there yet.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I wonder what they would look like now, and I wonder what their personalities would be like, and I stop myself because I'm never gonna know, and they're just forever 12 and 9. And I have to be okay with that. Yeah, I've kind of come— I've kind of come to a place where I'm okay with that because the 12 years and the 9 years that we had were phenomenal. Yeah, so many memories and You know, Chloe woke up one day and told me that she's gonna move to England because she wants to marry the head singer of One Direction. And I tried to explain to her, well, you're— I think she was 10 when she talked about this. I'm like, you're kind of 10 years old and he's kind of a grown-up. She's like, I wanna move over there. Those are the moments that, that I hold closest, and I, I can't make up scenarios that might have happened if they were still here. I can only hold on to the memories that I have from when they were still here, and it's those moments that used to make me cry, but now they make me smile.

Yeah, I could— I can tell that you've gotten to that point. Well, I, I asked you the question at the very beginning, tell me about your, your wife and your daughters, and your face as you were telling and your expressions, I could— they were like you said, they're right there with you. And the way that you described them, you know, they remind me of my, my two daughters. Shayna was our little Spitfire. She was the youngest and she was the one with the hand on the hip and, you know, always pushing the limits. And so I could, I could just relate you know, right there to, to your daughters. Um, and that's the flip that I had to make. You know, I had Shayna for 15 years, and I could spend the rest of my life, you know, saying I don't have her now. She'd be 25. You know, what would she be doing? I, I have no idea what she'd be doing. But I do know I did have those 15 years with her, and I still— and I will always have those memories. And, and she even said when she was about 10, I think, like, I don't want to grow up. She, she was like Peter Pan. She's like, I don't want to be an adult. She didn't want to go through all what— and she was like— and I'm like, I think that was her plan. Her plan was to only be here for 15 years. She just loved being a kid. And so that's, that's what I have to, you know, accept. Um, and, and there— it takes a while to get to that point, you know, right? So, but I can tell now you're like, I have those memories, and you, you do. You, you still love the love never goes away, as you said. Um, and we will always have— and I, I have another daughter who's here, and I don't see her every day, I don't talk to her every day, but I talk to Shayna every single day.

Anytime you want to. And, and there's beauty in that.

There is. There is. So I, you know, um Your book, you, you've kind of described it already. It's a way of like you express what you've gone through, but also it sounds like you help people to, uh, move forward through their lives. So what, what type of things do you recommend for people to do?

It's, it's unique to every situation. There's, there's a lot of things out there that, um, offer help, um, but don't really help. Like, I've never been into, um, like the grief support groups where you meet in a circle every week and talk about your pain. I've never, never seemed interested in that because I didn't want to sit there and cry the whole time and listen to everybody else's sadness.

Yeah.

Um, so it's unique to the individual, but Um, there are countless things you can do. Um, you know, you can draw a painting, you can, um, journaling is, is helpful. Um, go on, go on a vacation where your lost loved one always wanted to go and do it with him.

Hmm. Yeah, talk more about that.

There's places that I still can't go to today because I had so many memories of them there. Uh, our big thing every year was amusement parks. On our anniversary, we'd go to a different amusement park and ride coasters all day together. And the last trip that we made was in August of '16. We went to Kings Island in Cincinnati. And to this day, I can still not go to Kings Island. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, I'm gonna go to Kings Island.

Oh, wow.

And I'm gonna stand in the places where I have pictures of us together.

Wow.

Wow. I'm going to take new pictures.

Wow.

And I'm going to take a little owl, ladybug, and a butterfly, and I'm going to bury it in the dirt somewhere, and they'll always be there.

Yeah, I— wow, that's so— first of all, I live like 20 minutes from Kings Island. Um, but that's so powerful. I just got goosebumps as you were saying that because, like, my daughter Shana, um, I took her to White Castle when she was like 5 years old. My wife doesn't like White Castle, so I took the, I took the two girls there. And I still have this memory. They're like, it's just, it's magical at that time. It's this big White Castle. And we got the hamburger and she goes, they're just my size, you know, they're made for me. She's 5, right? She ate like 5 of them. So she was miserable. But the White Castle is right around the corner from where I live. And after she passed, every time I went back past that White Castle, I would start crying. And I found myself avoiding going past the White Castle. And then it took a while, but then eventually now I go to the White Castle and I'm like, this is where we had that special memory. This is where we had that, that moment, you know. So it's— if I, I changed it, or it changed for me. And you're thinking about going to Kings Island, because I tell people, if you try to avoid your triggers— I have one person who, her son died in their neighborhood. And sometimes people say, well, I'm going to move out of the neighborhood because I can't stand the memories. And I'm like, if you could just ride it out, I think you can get through that. And then it becomes a special place. So you leaning into that, you going to something that's uncomfortable for you, I think it'll transform that for you.

I, uh, I was a roller coaster mechanic for Dollywood.

Oh, wow.

And, um, 5 days before the fire was Chloe's birthday. And of course they wanted to ride rides on my day off. I'm like, all right, let's go ride rides because, you know, I love being at work on my day off.

Yeah.

So it was just me and the kids and we're spend the day riding rides. And, uh, we walked by their zipline and she was like, Daddy, we have never ziplined. We ziplined for my birthday. And we walked up to the counter and they were closed. So I said, all right, the next time we come to Dollywood, I promise you we'll zipline together. And then 5 days later, they were all gone. So I woke up one day in 2020, out of the completely random, and I said, if I become a zipline guide somewhere, they can still fly with me.

Wow.

So I've been a zipline guide ever since. Wow. Uh, at a place called Legacy Mountain Ziplines. If anybody comes to Pigeon Forge, hit us up, we're number one in the country. Um, and they fly with me every day.

Yeah.

And I'm 500 feet in the air, and I can feel Chloe with her arms wrapped around me and her little cheeks flopping in the wind and her eyes rolling in the back of her head because she's having so much fun. And we can find things to do in our lives that can make us feel closer to them. Mm-hmm. And that's really important for people to do too.

Yeah.

Our loved ones don't want us to cry. They don't want us to live in fear. They don't want us to be sad and miserable. They want us to live, and they want us to laugh, and they want us to love. And it took a long time, and I'm sure it did for you too, to get to that place. But even if you've lost, it's okay to smile. Mhm. For a long time, you know, if my son wanted to go ride go-karts, I'm like, okay, let's go ride go-karts. But I was stoic, like I had no facial expression because I mean, I was national news when the fires happened, so everybody knew who I was. And God forbid I'm at a go-kart track with my son smiling.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh, there's the man who lost his family and he's smiling. Excuse me, smiling and having fun. And no, I'm not.

Yeah.

Um, but through time, like, time heals some of the wounds, not all of them. But through time, I've learned they want me to laugh, they want me to be happy, they want me to do fun things, they want me to do scary things and adventurous things because there's still here doing those things with me.

I think that's, that's so important. I was talking to someone earlier today about survivor's guilt, and it's just such a— it's such a weird thing that we have. Like, you know, they're not here, they can't enjoy this, I shouldn't enjoy it. Um, and I remember my daughter passed away, my, my other daughter, um, she had a reading with a medium, and I think— well, she knew because she was talking to Shane and the medium. She said your sister wants you to know that all the moments you're going to go through in your life, when you graduate, when you get married, when you have kids, she's going to be there with you experiencing them with you. And I, you know, again, love what you're saying. It's like, okay, I'm going to take them with me. Go on vacation and take them with you. I was talking to somebody, said, well, I'm going to go on vacation without them. I'm like, no, take them with you. Um, they, they can be there with you. So it's not like it's too late, you know, that place you wanted to go go there. The place that you did go, you know, go there. I— it was interesting because this was Shayna's 10-year anniversary this year, and I ended up being back in the condo that we were in, the very exact same condo, the, the last vacation we were on together. And I didn't even realize at the time that was scheduled for the same time. And I was sitting there, I'm like, I just had the memory of being there with her and not knowing it's gonna be our last vacation together. But, you know, I had the pictures, I had the memories, and I'm like, I will always have those pictures and those memories. So that could have been a bad thing, but it actually was— it was a nice thing for me.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Yeah. And, and I think, you know, it's really important, you know, what you said also. I mean, it does take some time, but people want to put a time frame on things. I really good friend One of my best friends just passed away suddenly in April, and my wife and I have a derby party, Kentucky Derby party, every May, which is the first weekend in May. And so we're having the derby party, and his wife, you know, she's like, well, should I come or should I not come? We're like, yeah, you should come. We'd all be together anyway. It's a group of friends. We always get together. And she came, and we had some good times. We had some tears. We had a tribute to him. You know, we went through all the emotions together, just like we would anyway. And then someone saw, like, on Facebook and said, I saw you went to the party and looked like you were having a great time, you know, trying to make her feel guilty. And it's like, no, you need to be out and be, you know, with your friends. And, you know, sometimes we're going to laugh, sometimes we're going to smile. It doesn't mean that we've forgotten our loved one. They never are off of our minds.

People, people are afraid of things they don't understand. Mm-hmm. And, and, you know, there's so much division in this world, and that's why I put such an emphasis in the book about grief being a uniter, because Everybody has to have somebody. Everybody. Mm-hmm. And during the dark— the darkest parts of grief, the isolation that you feel is crippling. And then you talk about, you know, a little bit of the survivor's guilt. It's weird how you've gone through this tragedy, but then everybody around you moves on. Mm-hmm. And I compare it to a newspaper. Um, every morning I get up, I go on my porch, I pick up my newspaper, and I open up the headline and the headline says Gatlinburg wildfire, and it's been the same headline for 9 years. And nobody else's newspaper looks like that, but mine. Yeah. Life goes on unless you're the person that it affected.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I would get— I would get not really angry, but I would get frustrated because I would believe that, oh my God, the whole world's forgotten them.

Yeah.

And no, why? And then I'll just get a random message. I got a message on TikTok the other day. I have no idea who this person was, but they just— I want you to know I have prayed for you for years. I've never forgotten your girls. I just got your book and it's amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And just that, that little comment right there reminded me they're never forgotten. Yeah, your daughter's never forgotten.

Yeah, yeah, that, that is one of the fears that we have. And what I— one of the things I love about doing what I do is, um, I think we all kind of have that fear that they're going to be forgotten. It's, it's one of those human things, I guess. And I get to talk to people. I was talking to a woman the other day. Her brother passed away. He was 15. This was like 20 years ago, you know, sophomore in high school. She was freshman in college. And she's since started a jewelry company, a memorial jewelry company, jewelry company on his behalf, and it's named after her brother. And I said, when he passed away 20 years ago as a junior in high school, did you ever believe, you know, could you have believed that he was gonna have this kind of impact? And now there's this company named after him and everything. And she goes, yeah, I'm sure he's just laughing, like, I'm still a big part of your life, right? So we, we have this fear that they're going to fade away, but it's actually quite the opposite. And my daughter, again, it's been 10 years, and she was 15 when she passed. I thought, well, her friends, they were, they were 15, you know, it's been 10 years, they're not going to really think about Shayna, remember Shayna. And they all do. They all talk about her all the time. So your girls, your wife, they're still having an impact. Part of it is through you, through the, through the work that you're doing, um, And that's, that's the thing. You've taken that— like, I love what you said about, like, they're, they're with you, they're guiding you. I look at it like we're a team. I just happen to be the team member that's, that's in the game right now, but they're still, they're still there. They're still guiding us. They're still, they're still arranging things for us, you know. And all we have to do is just reach out to them.

Yeah. And, and the, the beauty of the hurt is that we can reach out to them anytime we want to.

Yeah, yeah. So there is something, you know, we, we lose that physical connection, which we all want because we're physical beings, but we— if we allow it to happen— and again, there's things we're talking about, I want to remind people, you know, for you it's been, it's been 9 years, and it sounds like it took you several years to— I integrate this experience. Um, it takes us a while to get there. People think, I should be there by now, right? It's been a year, it's been 2 years. It's like, I, I just kind of smile and say, no, you, you're still really early. It's, it's a, it's a years-long process, but we can get there.

Yeah, there is no timetable, and, and that's, that's where I think the illusion of the 5 stages of grief kind of confuses people because they think it's just this linear process. All right, I'm gonna go through A, B, C, D, and E, and then I'm gonna be fine, right? And that's, that's not how it works, right? And, and, um, I don't care how long it takes you. There's still things I'm gonna grieve the rest of my life that I know I'm never going to be able to process and never be able to understand. I've never processed losing our home. I've never processed the pets that we lost that night. I can never get past just losing them. And, and I may spend the rest of my life never fully, completely realizing that we lost every possession we had. Uh, thank God for Facebook. The only pictures I have are were my Facebook pictures. Uh, everything else was gone.

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate— again, I appreciate your honesty because, um, you know, sometimes people look at us and think, okay, well, you've got it all together, you, you've got it figured out, you solved it, you're on the other side of it. And you're right, there's some of these things that we're never going to understand. We may never— we may never come to quote, acceptance of them. Um, you know, and, and everybody's got their own process. Everybody's going to be on their own, you know, place. Like I said, for me, I've done things one way, you've done things one— grief is, it's really interesting. It's both universal and it's unique. We all, we all have grief experiences. We all have, you know, similar feelings and stuff, but everybody processes them differently. I remember my daughter came home, Kayla, after Shayna passed, and She goes, how can you stay in the house? You know, because all the memories of Shayna here. And my wife and I are like, well, how can we move? Uh, first of all, it's like, it's expensive. And we— where are we going to go? And then eventually again, we kind of flip to like, now this is a place where Shayna grew up and her bedroom is here and her stuff is here. I, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to leave that. But other people, it's exact opposite. They're like, I just had to get out and start over again. I, I, I know people are like, I can't live in the same town, I need to— and that's fine, whatever, whatever, you know, works for you. We, we're all going to go through a unique way of the way we process it.

And I've always, I, I've always wondered, you know, if, if it wasn't a wildfire, if, if it was, you know, a horrific car accident— I mean, she didn't drive, but if 3 of them were lost in a car accident, I don't know if I'd be able to be in my home without them there. And I've always wondered if it was different circumstances, would I be able to do it? And then finally one day I was like, why am I doing this to myself?

Right.

That's not what happened, and there's nothing I can do about it, so why torture myself, you know?

Yeah. Um, yeah, the human— it's interesting, the things that we, we torment ourselves with, because, you know, Shayna had a friend, uh, Victoria, who was like a year older than Shayna, but they were on the same volleyball team. And Victoria, um, had a brain tumor, so she died slowly over a period, I guess, of a couple years. So we knew she was, you know, terminal. And so Shayna passed in June, Victoria passed in December right after Shayna, which of course Shayna's was sudden, we had no idea was coming. And then you sit there and you play these games yourself. Well, which is worse? Is it worse to lose them suddenly and unexpectedly, or is it worse to have them, you know, get a terminal illness? And I'm like, why, why do we— why am I going through that?

I think it's our brain's way of just trying to make sense of our grief. Yeah, you know, I always overanalyze things and I try to, you know, make everything make sense. And there are just some things that happen in our lives that are never meant to make sense and are never meant to be wrapped up in a box with a little bow and, you know, this is how it's gonna happen. And, um, I gave up on trying to make sense of it because I was doing nothing but hurting myself. Yeah. Um, you know, this is now The start of the book talks about, um, I died that night too. I lost 3/4 of my heart. Mm-hmm. The 3/4 of my heart is still in me. And I thought that that loss was the end of my story, but I've now realized it was actually the beginning.

Yes, I love that. I think it's so well put.

That's, that's what I'm trying to do.

Yeah.

And, and I feel guilty because it's taken me so long, and, and we feel guilty way more than we should after a loss. Um, I, I, I've felt guilty that it's taken me 9 years to get to this place, you know. Why couldn't I have done this 5 years ago? Maybe it would have had more of an impact. Uh, we have to give ourselves grace. It just— in your grief, you are never doing anything wrong. Mm-hmm. Don't ever think that you are.

Yep. I—

yeah.

Yeah, I think I— wherever you are, I tell people, wherever you are on your grief journey, it's right where you're supposed to be. There is no timeline. And as you said so well, and we beat ourselves up for not moving faster. You know, it's like, why is fast important? It takes time. And you mentioned earlier time healing wounds. And I tell people, time doesn't heal all wounds. Time allows us to heal our wounds, allows us to happen. But we have to do the work as you've done, you know, and, and every— again, every relationship is different. Every person is different. Every circumstance is different. It's going to take some of us longer to get to certain points than others. And we're going to have parts of our grief that we might call unhealed, you know, from a human perspective. And that's okay. You know, that's that there's something about the human, the mystery of life. You know, you said we're, we tend to overanalyze. I'm one of those people too. How does this work? Why does this work? And one of my lessons in life, I think, is learning you're not going to know everything. You're not even capable of knowing everything. It's kind of going back to Job when God is talking to Job, and he basically says to him, I couldn't even explain it to you if I tried, because you can't understand it. Yeah, and just being— that has freed me up from a lot because I'm like, I don't have to understand it, you know. I, I have to deal with what's here and move forward, which is exactly what you're doing.

I— oh, Joe, that's really what it feels like. It's, it's felt like that for a long time, and people have told me that over the years, and I'm I'm nothing special. I'm just a dad who loves his daughters and a husband who loves his wife. And I don't know why me, but what I do know is it had to be me.

Mm-hmm. Well, that's, that's the other, you know, one of the other paradoxes. We're all the same, but we're also all special. Well, nobody else has your story. Nobody else could tell the story the way you're telling it. You are, you are something special. You are, you're, you're an inspiration. You're an example of the way to walk this journey and what's possible. And people watching this that are in early grief, I say to them, be patient, because you're not going to be there next week or next month, but you can get there. And also to, again, to do the work, you know, to, to have your grief witnessed, you know, that, that, that feeling, that drive you had, I need to get this out. That's extremely important. You know, when we're in grief, we're not meant to isolate, and the shame can isolate us, the survivor's guilt can isolate us. And you've done the exact opposite, which is, I think, a great model.

I had to, um, If I didn't do it this way, I wouldn't be here.

Yeah.

It was just too much weight that I carried with me all the time. And You know, there's things through the process that we have to let go of, and I talk about that a lot too. And my biggest one was anger. I used to go to the grocery store and I'd see a dad holding his daughter's hand, and I hated that guy. Because his daughter's here and mine's not. I didn't know him. He could have been the Pope for all I would have known.

Yeah.

I would go to work and see, you know, a couple that just got married that are still holding hands because they love each other because they've been married only 2 days and And I hated him because he had his wife and I don't. Mm-hmm. There's things during the grieving process that we have to let go of. Mm-hmm. And it's okay. And I want people to know that when they let go of a certain part of that grief, that's not them taking steps backwards. It's actually taking steps forward.

Yeah, yeah.

Because you cannot carry 100% of it with you for the rest of your life. There are pieces that you have to be willing to let go of in order to start rebuilding your heart and rebuilding the scars and, and, uh, And then the guilt associated with letting some of those things go can suck it right back into your life again.

Yeah, you gotta avoid that trap.

Yeah, yeah. Just allow yourself grace and patience, and anybody can do it. And grief isn't a sign of loss. Grief is a sign of love.

Absolutely.

And I think the more that we grieve is just a reminder of how much we loved what we lost.

Yeah.

Yeah. If you look at it that way, grief can be a positive thing in your life. And it doesn't have to define you, but it can become a part of you. And I live every day for my girls. Every day.

That's awesome. That's so awesome. Michael, we're coming to the end of our time. I really enjoyed having this conversation with you. Remind people of the name of your book and if people can reach out to you, how can they contact you?

Uh, the book is called The Million Stages of Grief. Uh, it's available on Amazon. Uh, I also have a website, it's themillionstages.com. Um, I've got, uh, other podcast episodes that I've been a part of. I've got, um, uh, different versions of the book, um, available on there. Uh, There's also a contact section on the bottom where, where I would love, um, and it's been great reading some of these. I would love people to reach out and share their stories, completely, completely confidential. No, y'all, never speak anybody's name or anything like that, but we have to talk about our hurts and Sometimes just writing it down and getting it off your chest helps. So it's been great to read where people are on their journeys and how the book has helped them. And we all have the power to change the world, one person at a time. Yeah, and every person that reads this, I hope, uh, gets something out of it that can give them some healing and some peace.

Yeah, well, I want to say, I know that your, your wife, uh, Constance, Chloe, and Lily, right, they're— I know they're proud of you. Um, I know they're, they're here with you. I know they're, they're guiding you. Your love for them just comes through abundantly. So keep doing what you're doing.

I will do my best.

I promise.

All right.

Have a great rest of your day.

You too, sir. Thank you so much for having me.

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