The Not So Only Child with Rich Boerner | EP 466

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi, I'm Brian D Smith, host of Grief 2 Growth. And whether this is your first time joining me or you're a longtime listener, I want to say welcome to you. On this show, we explore life's deepest challenges and life's greatest mysteries. We look at grief not as an end, but as a doorway into growth and healing and a clearer understanding of who we are, why we're here, and where we're going. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Rich Berner, an award-winning audio creator, producer, and now debut Arthur. Rich has worked with A-list talent and major media powerhouses like Spotify, Fox, CBS, and more. But beyond that impressive resume is a deeply personal story, one of love, loss, identity, and the hidden truths that grief can sometimes, sometimes uncover. In our conversation, Rich will open up about the loss of his mother and how mourning her didn't just bring grief, but also surfaced longtime buried family secrets that completely rewrote what he believed about himself. Imagine waking up one day and realizing everything you thought was true about your identity has changed. And that's exactly what happened to Rich. We'll talk about how the transformation— how he transformed feelings of betrayal and heartbreak into a pathway toward healing, the role that humor played in helping him find his footing again, and how telling his untold story became both a painful and liberating experience. Rich's journey from shattering revelations to redemption and renewal isn't just compelling. It's a testament to the resilience of the human spirit. Rich's debut novel is called The Not So Only Child. And it dives deep into these themes, blending real-life emotion with storytelling that's as moving as it is thought-provoking. So whether you're navigating grief, questioning your identity, or simply looking for inspiration on how to build, rebuild when your foundation has been shaken, this episode's for you.. And don't forget, after the episode is over, head over to grief2growth.substack.com, where I've written an article about this conversation. You can leave a comment, ask a question, and connect with me and other listeners as we continue this dialogue. So now let's dive in. I'd like to welcome Rich to Grief 2 Growth.

Thank you, Brian. Yeah, when I hear an introduction like that, it was so well spoken, so well said. I'm like, wow, who is this guy? Yeah, you know, because I, and I always said that to folks, because I've always just been me. In my brain, I'm still, you know, the 10-year-old kid eating, uh, the frozen dinner in front of the TV screen and whatnot. So, um, thank you, thank you for having me on, uh, thank you for doing this podcast.

Yeah, well, I'm really excited to have you here, and I, I know, I know the feeling when someone reads your introduction, you're like, yeah, is that me? I've been through all that, and That's one of the things I love to explore in this program is the resilience of the human spirit and all our experiences here. So I know that you— I think your story kind of begins with the loss of your mother. So start wherever you like, but I'd like to hear about your mother also.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I grew up as, you know, the name of the book is The Not So Only Child, but I grew up in my brain, I was an only child with a single mom. And this was the 1970s. So it was not something that you went out and wore as a badge. Not that it's a badge of honor for anyone, but you tried to hide it. And I also came from a family that, you know, my mom had me when she was a little older. So all my relatives were older, you know, at least a decade or more older, even for cousins, older than me. So they basically didn't talk about controversial stuff. They didn't, you know, I don't know their, I didn't know a lot of whatever their beliefs were on controversial things, 'cause we'd never talked about it. They seemed like nice people. They were nice people. They treated others, you know, well. So I was like, okay, they're good. They're good folks. But my mom was this kind of— it was interesting. She was this ebullient personality, laughing, always laughing. She had a laugh that was like— there was a cartoon when I was a kid called The Wacky Racers. And this dog came named Mutley and had this breathy, like— but that was her laugh. In fact, I used to bring my friends in and go, Mom, laugh like Mutley so they can hear. Mom. And she'd be be like, I can't laugh on the command, you know. Um, and a big, a huge baseball fan. She had been a Brooklyn Dodgers fan as a kid, heartbroken when they left New York, when they left Brooklyn, and then became a Mets fan because that's what most Brooklyn Dodgers fans did and whatnot. So the Yankees were the evil enemy. Um, so I became a Mets fan during a time when it was I mean, well, yeah, I mean, it's up and down for the Mets. But anyway, it's in my DNA at this point as a Mets fan. Loved Broadway musicals and movies. That was her thing. We'd watch, even as a little kid, we'd watch, you know, The King and I on television, all these Broadway musicals and West Side Story, all this stuff when I was a little kid, watching anytime they came on. And She was just— she seemed fun, but not fun to the point she would not have been the life of the party. She would have gone to the party and it would have taken her an hour to start really interacting. You know, she was not the person who walked in the room and went, Regina's here! You know, there are those folks and they're magnetic. But when she left, she would have the 6 people that she really connected with and bonded with. Which is interesting because throughout my life, I obviously genetics and also there's conditioning from growing up. I feel like I've been the same way. I'm not going to walk into a room and everybody stops. There are folks who are like that and we know, we all know them. We all— and it's— it always amazes me at their strength and resilience to just walk into a brand new situation and just, I got it, I'm good, I'm hitting home runs. Here we go. But it was, you know, I was sad because I didn't have a dad and wasn't like everybody else. But I wasn't sad with Mom ever. I mean, we struggled too, but I didn't care because she— it was just me, Mom taking care of me. And, you know, I had friends in the neighborhood and we went about business. So, yeah, I mean, it wasn't until I got to like teen years and whatnot. And then I was like, wow, I wish I had somebody I could ask questions to because I know I can't ask these questions any, you know, anything as I'm maturing and everything. I can't ask my mom. Yeah, I'm embarrassed. I'm not, I'm not gonna ask Mom. I need somebody to ask me. And so there was a lot of, you know, figuring it out with your friends.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of wrong information, a lot of that stuff.

Yeah.

But I mean, you know, in, in retrospect, it was a good life. But I held, I still held, like, in my backpack, I held that, uh, I got ripped off. You know, that one, that one canister of, I got ripped off and I'm gonna prove to the world I'm as good or better than everyone else who's quote unquote normal, when we all know at this point there is no normal, right?

Right. Well, when you're that age, you think there is, right? You think there's some ideal that, that other people have that you don't, that you're missing out on.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. You look at any, you know, you— I think of just my friends growing up and I look at their parents and You know, there was of the, like, the group of 6 of us, there was like one other household I might have been like, yeah, okay, I can live in there. Because the other parents were, some of them were like, well, you got the angry dad, you got the, you know, and that seems weird and everything else like that. So I just kind of felt like an observer for a lot. You know, I got to spend, because my mom had to work and ultimately my aunt who took care of me, she went back to work too. So I got to spend a lot of time as a latchkey kid alone.

Okay.

And that's where I think a lot of my ability to just create— I would always create, even when I was little, my mom was like, "You're a storyteller. Are you telling stories?" In other words, telling the truth. Sometimes then, sometimes yes, sometimes no. But I could, on a whim, I could just start going and go and, you know, when I was home alone, besides discovering where every piece of candy was or anything, every nook and cranny in the house, I would just start to create stuff, you know, and that ultimately became a career in radio.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it. The community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing. Listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Okay, yeah. So at some point your, your mother passed away. So tell me what happened there.

So, um, flash forward to I'm, I'm an adult, I'm working in radio, I have, um, I'm married and have a small child, and I was in Orlando working at a station, talk station in Orlando, which was very popular. This is all in the book, whatever. So I won't give away too much detail. But there's a lot of trauma and stress that goes there. In the process of— I got a job and was moving to San Francisco, a job which I had for a year there to put a radio, a new radio station on the air. When I called my mom, because my mom and my eldest, who was only 3 at the time, Shannon, they, they just bonded, you know, sometimes people just bond. And I know this caused tension with my my ex-wife's, uh, mother. Because it's like, why is— why, why is—

what—

why is she going to her? And, you know, I mean, it's like— it was like, it's not a competition. That could change, you know. I mean, because what— that happens with kids sometimes. They're attached to one, something— they just bonded. They were really tight, right? Um, and we, uh, moved across, so I asked if she could fly out because she was still back in New York. She lived in the same apartment. The one I grew up in, tiny little apartment, for 40, 35 years, whatever. And I said, can you come out? This would be a great opportunity. Can you come out and stay with Shan for a weekend while we go and I do my final interview and we look for places to live? Sorry, this was moving from San Francisco to LA.

Okay.

And, and she, that's when she started to cry on the phone. And I was like, whoa, what's up? Because I wasn't— first of all, I wasn't used to seeing that emotion from my mom. And she told me she had gone to the doctor and that because there was something sticking out of her and she— the doctor was pretty sure it was ovarian cancer and she had a biopsy scheduled, all this stuff. And I was just kind of like, you know, as you know, when traumatic things happen in life, it's like you're hit by the invisible bus.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, you want to do something or react, but you don't. You just literally feel weak. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, and so anyway, she eventually found out it was ovarian cancer. We went through that. I was in the process of moving the family down to LA at the same time, flying back and forth between San Francisco, LA, and New York. Mom going through surgery. She, uh, went through treatment for ovarian— it wasn't a good diagnosis, prognosis. Um, and she eventually went into it. She did an experimental treatment and she had beaten it. And, uh, we were amazed, in awe, and like, just like a heavy— and then, um, she had one last preventative chemo treatment. And when I came home 2 days after that, because we were planning out her trip to come out to LA to go to— actually, because she had never gone to the Dodgers games at Dodger Stadium, I'm like, and the station I worked for, we could get tickets, no problem. It's like, we're going to take you to a Dodgers game, we'll make sure when the Mets are in town. This is so exciting. And I got a call, and I get home, I got home late from work, and my ex was on the phone with my cousin who was in the emergency room with my mom. And they, um, they— she says, I need to put the doctor on. It's like, what, what? He says, uh, you're the, you're the next of kin, uh, do you want us to resuscitate? I was like, I These— I was like, yes, she just beat ovarian cancer. And I may have said something more extreme than that.

Sure.

But I said yes and then put my back in and put me— okay, here's your cousin. And she gave me a quick— she said, we don't know what's gone wrong. She just deteriorated today. We thought it was just, you know, the post-chemo treatment, everything else. I flew in, you know, found a flight the next morning at like 5 a.m., flew in, got there. We spent the next 2 and a half days just watching her um, blood pressure fade, fade up, fade, fade, fade, and go, um, down. She eventually died 2 days later. Um, and yeah, and flatlined 3 times in the room there and came back. And I was like, I was so mad because I was like, this is proof she's not ready, it's not time. But there's nothing we could do, nothing. Again, there's more details in the book about how this all happened and what all happened, but there's, there's no secret there other than, uh, turns out she had, uh, undiagnosed diverticulitis. And one of the, um, it's those little sacs in your intestines. One of them— she fell at night going to the bathroom and one of them burst. So her body poisoned itself and she had no defense for it because she had just gone through her last chemo treatment. So, um, go through all of that and, uh, you— I'm there for a couple of weeks and then I come— I'm going to come back in 3 months to empty the apartment because it's on the other side of the country. When I go back to empty the apartment I'm emptying out all the apartment stuff and whatnot. And that's when I came through, when I get to the final thing, her nightstand, I start going through this little blue packet of all her private stuff, her little address book, a little everything else. And I found, and I found so much amazing material. In other words, she was a letter writer. I kind of knew that, but I didn't know she had written, especially to like big names in baseball in the, I say late '50s, '50s through '70s. You know, she wrote, she did, I guess she'd stopped writing at a certain point, but, and had response letters from them.

Oh, wow.

You know, from Vin Scully, the announcer.

Wow.

And from Walter O'Malley, the Dodgers owner.

Wow.

I mean, and, you know, Yogi Berra and Sparky Anderson. And it was just like, I was like, whoa, whoa. And then she had a secret set of Letters, pen pal letters that would never— nobody knew. And then when I talked to my family, nobody knew about this. She was a pen pal with someone, a soldier who was overseas, and they were talking like they were going to get married or something. And then he wrote a Dear Jane letter because he married someone else. And I was like, what? And then I opened the book and I'm looking through and going— and I knew everybody in the book. I knew everybody in the book. And I see a name of a person that I knew. And it has, uh, I'm born in November, and it has Valentine's Day in a hotel room number next to it and a heart next to it. And that's 9 months out of the year, the year I was born. And I was like, it was— that was the arrow in the forehead. It's like, oh my God, this is my father. So I knew at that point who my father was. I didn't— then the question was, what do I do with that? Because the man— I knew the— I knew who the man was, um, and I didn't do anything with it. I decided to just— I defaulted. I was like, nope, nope, I don't— I have enough stress right now. I don't need this. I don't need this. And I tried to ignore it. And as I detail in the book, I tried to ignore this for over a decade, and life kept coming at me, kept coming at me, coming at me, coming at me to get me to the point. I put little pieces together as I was going just because I needed to. And then ultimately life came at me where I was, um, a, uh, my half-sister reached out to me out of the blue, um, like 12 years after my mom died. And just said, hey, I hope this is you. And I— and, and, and, and literally went back and forth via email until I said, if you're talking about the relationship between your father and my mother, um, I know. And then the— I'm sitting here crying, I can't believe it, I've known for so long. But it, it was a moment, it was a pivotal moment because I already knew my identity had changed because I knew now, now I know who my father is. Now, I'm not, I'm not necessarily thrilled with that, of what happened, but you kind of want to know more pieces to it. But I was just like, let's just put it over here. I know that I have this, but I don't have a connection with a sister or anything else like that. To actually put that connection together, it went from like, I know that I have to make a right turn up here on this road. But I'm not there yet. So I'm just gonna slow down, right? I'm just gonna slow down. That it was like, okay, now I have to make the right turn. And made the turn and connected with her and her family. And it changed everything, changed, you know, and enabled me to finally let go of a lot of pre-constructed narratives, some based on truth, some not. Some based on guesses that, you know, really left— I always say the metaphor I use is rocks in the backpack. It left unnecessary rocks in my backpack and enabled me to find a place where I could understand better and then ultimately work towards forgiving. And then, like I said, be even be sad for. The man who was my father and, and my mother and whatnot. So, you know, again, the grief from— you know so well— the grief from losing a loved one who's really close to you never goes away. The, the pain never goes, really goes away. You, it just doesn't become your primary focus anymore, and you learn how to handle it and try to think of— think, find ways to think that will help you smile when you think of that person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so you were saying when you were, when you were growing up as a kid, you kind of wished you had a father like other people did.

Yeah.

What did your mother tell you about your father?

It was— I called it her prisoner of war line. She had, you know, like her name, rank, and serial number thing. She had— it was a man. It was a man, a businessman from Milwaukee named Alan Scott. Who I— we had a relationship because he used to visit all the time. And when he found out I was pregnant, he told me he had a family and he could never see me again. That was the end. That was it.

Hmm.

You know, now there's no internet back then, right?

Right.

No internet we can use anyway. And so it's literally like, so do you just try to find— go to the library and find Milwaukee phone books? And, you know, I mean, I may have even done that a few times, but I wasn't passionate enough to go, I'm going to make this thing happen. So yeah. And when I started in college, I was a double major in psychology and communications. And my, my mentor who was there was like, we would talk weekly and he's like, you have to have this conversation with her. You deserve the right to know. I mean, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had the big conversation and it was, you know, you know, eventually after probably it felt like 3 hours, it might have been 10 minutes. Um, but she was crying and saying, name rank, serial name, name rank. I, I was just— I, I got— I can't— I— okay, I'm done, I'm done. So it's just not meant to be known now. Now, knowing that I knew— now know who it was and knew who it was, in retrospect, again, when I look back and go, hmm, I wonder what I would have done with that information, right? And I'm not— I can in no way say I'm certain I would have been discreet or smart with that information. So does it mean hiding it was a good thing to do? I don't know. I don't know the answer. Again, part of the, you know, part of the judgment. I was always— I was so mad you never told me. You never told me who my real father was, all the rest of the stuff. And I was like, no, I get it. I understand. You know, like the phrase, if you walk a mile in someone else's shoes, you have a different perspective. You may still disagree with them vehemently or dislike them or whatever, but you have a totally different perspective.

Yeah, but it sounds like he had, he had another family, so it— I mean, there's, I guess, a privacy issue there.

Yeah, yeah, he, he had another family, so it just, you know, and— but that was what, with connecting with my sister, finding out the details of that. Yeah, was really, really interesting. And all I will say is that, I mean, it wasn't a complete horror show, but it just wasn't— it wasn't comfortable like the life I had, right? And, and, you know, I, I joke, and I joke with, uh, she jokes with me. She said, you know, next time— we're born the same year, um, with 6 months apart.

Oh wow.

So that was a busy— that was a hell of a busy year for him, um, and I said, you know, She said, next time I'm pushing you off the cloud first. She's older by 6 months. So, you know, again, I learned to appreciate her and I appreciate, you know, then I learned what her life was like growing up and all the rest of the stuff. And it was just, I was like, I had it good. I really, you know, despite everything that I would go like, well, it's not, you know, we only eat meatloaf because we can't afford it. Who— I— we had food. Yeah, thanks to family. We had the little apartment that we— I was raised in and she lived in. It was a two-family house that my aunt and uncle owned. So, you know, they made whatever rent she had to pay affordable, and they fixed whatever needed to be fixed and everything else. And, you know, I had additional family in there to help. Grandma took care of me before she went back to work when I was a kid. So, I mean, I had this little cocoon of safety., that was, you know, like I said, I, I always appreciated it, but I didn't appreciate it to the level, its proper, to the proper level until after learning, going through all this, this 10, 12-year metamorphosis and going, oh, okay.

Yeah.

And on top of that, becoming a parent myself and seeing, you know, what it's like, uh, taking care of kids, raising kids. You know, trying to, trying to give them, trying to help make sure they find some sort of passion that they can, you know, follow, but also guide them to know what the real world tends to be like.

Yeah.

So that they can navigate and also make it so when they come home to wherever you are, that was the biggest important thing for me for being a parent was making the home home that they were staying in, even when they were staying in two homes for a period when— after I had been divorced— where they came to me, they could just go, exhale. All right, I'm safe, I'm good, whatever. I mean, yeah, great, you're a teenager now, we're gonna— there's gonna be moods, it's all good, it's all fine. I just want you to feel like you can be you, you can just exhale and be yourself here.

Yeah. So, so how did finding out who your father was— your mother giving you, as you said, name, rank, and serial number before— but finding out, okay, this is real person, you know, how did that change your identity? How did it change what you felt about yourself?

Uh, you know, you, you have that— you paint this picture when you're a kid of who you are, and it's a lot of is based on circumstance and what you observe and all the rest of the stuff. And you go through, well, now I am this person, and obviously there's this ma— I— there's almost a— you create a magic to it, you know what I mean? Of like, okay, well, I'm here, but this magic mystery person, all the rest of the stuff. Now I am instantly connected to person I know and whatever trauma that you've heard about this per— all everything else like that. And it, at first, yeah, it, it makes you wholer, but it adds a whole bunch of— when your perspective is, is where mine was, it adds a whole bunch of heavy sand, you know. It just like, oh no. Oh no, the thing I've heard this. Oh no. Oh, he's— oh, this, that. Oh no. Oh no. I mean, you start looking for what are the positives that can I take out of this? What are the positives? But this all happened, and it was a traumatic home life for him and, and his family. Um, yeah, again, not every day, but there was enough trauma in there. I was like, oh wow. And that was why I was like, I don't want I don't want a connection here. I don't want any part of this. And I think that initially, I— my thought initially was like, I'm— oh, I'm so glad I know. But now I'm so mad I know because it wasn't the answer I was hoping for. I didn't have a specific, like, I want it to be this, but that was definitely not the answer I wanted. So it took, I'll say, And I— it took a couple of years, probably 3 years later, when I got the actual confirmation, because I went and talked to everybody in my family and they were like, we don't know, she never told us, we don't know, we suspected, we suspected, but we don't know. So I finally, um, had, uh, there was— my doctor had asked family history at one point going on. I had like pre-pneumonia, so, and then ask me all about other stuff. And I was like, yeah, I can give my mother's. It's like, can't give you father's. I was like, no, and I Yeah, I don't know, and it's a long story and all the rest. I was like, I really need to know that. I need to know that, not just for me, but do you know, I have kids now, so I need to know. I need to know the medical history, what's there. So my mom's best friend growing up, who I called Aunt Rose, um, I— she would be the only one that knew. And I asked my, my relatives, they're like, yeah, Rose would know, Rose might know. So I wrote a letter to her, and she wrote back a little note card saying back, 'So good to hear from you. Glad the family's doing well,' and all the rest. She said, 'I cannot betray a trust your mother put in me.' Oh wow. 'But I, but I would tell you that you'd make a very fine detective.' Wow. That was, that was, that was her way of not breaking the trust.

Wow.

But she's like, you know, I mean, I imagine she was because she was from the same, you know, generation, my mom, kind of like flipping, like, oh no, he knows. Oh, what do I, what do I do?

Yeah.

Um, and from that point, I just kind of, I just tabled it. I was like, okay, now I got this information. I tabled it. And I, I had written a letter to my sister who I ultimately connected with, and it got sent back because she had moved from wherever she was because it took me a couple of years. And she had sent me a letter after my mom died because she had been at the funeral and she had sent me a letter and it was like, if you ever want to talk. And she knew at the time. I didn't know she knew. I didn't know at the time. And then when I got it, I'm like, oh my God, she might know. Should I write a letter? Should I connect? I was like, I can't connect to this family right now. I just, I can't. I can't. But I kept it, you know, on my desk at home, wherever you keep all your stuff and wherever you're going to sit down, whether it was paying bills or doing whatever. I kept it with me and it traveled with me me from place to place to place and sat there, never responded to. From there, I mean, I wrote back a generic letter that said, you know, thanks very much, great, great, great. And, um, until she, out of the blue, you know, and thanks to, thanks to the internet, thanks to Google or whatever, uh, found me.

Wow.

And, and wrote, reaching out, seeing if I was, A, if I was the right person, B, if I was, you know, still working in radio, and if I would talk to her, um, her young teen son who was in a communications class and had to interview somebody who was in radio.

Okay, wow.

And I was like, yeah, yeah, I'll help you. So yeah, um, the change for me was a broadening, um, it was a broadening, uh, emotional broadening, uh, you know, and it enabled me, and what I had to do was I had to explore the dark side of it first, the anger, the frustration, the disappointment, and all the rest. And I, you know, I dabbled in that for a couple of years, which is another reason why I didn't, and then, you know, but to a degree where I was like, you know what, all right, that's enough. I got to put this away, put this back on the shelf because I got a life to live.

Yeah.

There was, um, the beauty of the alt— of life keep coming at— kept coming at me with that. And then my sister and I connecting was— I was able to dabble in some of the joy of it. And then imagine that there had to be, um, because we all know about the, the— that connection you make with humans, um, that is so close. And it doesn't even have to be a romantic partner. You have certain humans that you have that connection with. You just feel good when you're with that person. You know, everybody, you know, there'll be bumps in the road, but 90% of the time it's like, that's the person, that's my go-to, one of my go-tos. Everybody has a couple of go-tos, maybe, maybe more than a couple, but everybody has a couple of go-tos, you know. And I feel like, oh my God, that they were go-tos. They were go-tos together for all those years. Um, and I'm glad they had that. I, I, but both my sister and I both wonder, it's like, if they were, if it was 30 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, not even that long later, how would life have been different? You know, would we have known each other as children? Would they have eventually gotten together? You know, and all the rest of the stuff. So there's always the, you know, I wish that I could have 30 minutes with the two of them, you know, just, and, and, and just, oh, they reappeared for 30 minutes. I'm only here for 30 minutes. Well, okay, let me just spend 10 minutes crying hysterically. Um, and we're going to spend the last 20 minutes just talking about, you know, we'll spend 10 minutes me crying hysterical, 10 minutes of us just what was it like, and then 10 minutes of what's it like for you now. Yeah, that's, that's, that's it. That's it, you know. So anyway, um, I hope I answered your question. I do tend to talk.

Yeah, absolutely. You definitely answered my question. So It sounds like your sister— I'm really curious, how did your sister find you? It sounds like this was a very well-kept secret, only a couple people knew.

Okay, so my— all in the book, it's all in the book. The details are all in the book. And, um, but, um, my sister was at an event with, uh, that my mother and her father/my father were at. And I was at also at this event, but I showed up at the event and she, as she described it to me, I was talking to one of the other people at the event, one of the other, um, people's wives at the event. And she was only there to bring my father and her mother there to the event, but because they peripherally knew people, so it wasn't— so I was talking to one of his the people that was with him, you know, were at the event for him. And he— she said, I'm— my father is there at the bar. She goes, the— she goes, the broken-down version, old broken-down older version of my father is there at the bar. And I see him over her shoulder. And then I see the, the version of my father that I knew at age 5 walk up to him, pat him on the back, and shake his hand. And my jaw just dropped. She goes, that was you, she said. And the person I'm talking to stops. She realizes that my— I'm completely distracted, turns around and looks and goes, oh honey, you're going to need a few strong drinks tonight. So obviously, again, I don't know what was said or not said, but that person knew, you know, by looking at it. And so then ultimately I was with there, my mom was there and I accompanied my mom there and we were going from table to table talking to folks because they knew everybody. It was a, you know, it was a company event. And, and I walk up to that table and say, oh, hi, hi. So I met my sister for the first time and her husband, and I met the man that I knew and I met his wife for the first time. She said, after you guys walked away from that table, it was stone silence. At the table. She said, which for both my mother and father is ridiculous. They're never silent. Um, she said stone silence. And they drove— she said, we drove home together, not a word. She said, so I was like, I gotta find out. So she said a week later she went back. And she said, when I got there, she goes, I was lucky because when I got there, there was— they were on opposite sides of the house, and which would happen after they had a huge argument. She goes, I know it very well. You know, a huge argument and they go their separate ways slamming doors. And she said, so I had him alone and I went and I just started. I asked him, I asked him outright, is that your son? Is he your son? Is Rich your son? Is Rich? And he said he denied, he denied, he denied, he denied, he denied, he denied. And then he started, then he got angry, started yelling at her and everything else. And he said, she said, finally he got up and he hobbled out of the room. And just before he slammed the door and he said, kiddo, sometimes, you know, too much for your own damn good. And he slammed the door. She goes, so when we— she goes, when we spoke at your mom's wake, I knew you were my brother, but I didn't know what you knew or if you knew. I was like, I didn't know. I had no clue. So she knew the whole time. And then I didn't know until 3 months after my mom died. And like I said, And then there was the, how do we navigate this? What do we do? And I wish, you know, there's a part of me that wishes I had reacted earlier and quicker. But obviously, it's what I needed to do. It was what I needed to do to, you know, and just kind of, just kind of put it away, put it away. And like I said, life keeps coming at you with the stuff that you need to do. It doesn't mean you're always going to do it. Doesn't mean you'll ever get it done. But life will keep coming at you with opportunities to do the stuff that that you probably should do.

Yeah, yeah. So your, your book is, is a novel, right? It's, it's fiction?

No, it's, it's fact. Yeah, a few of the names have changed. Okay, a few of the names have changed, uh, but the book is my life. That is what happened. Okay, it's my life as I remember it and as I know it and as I've spoke to, uh, you know, people about, with, about things in there. So none of it is, you know, the only things that would be changed is a couple of names have changed, and that was just to soften the edges and whatnot.

So, you know, you, you had this, this life of not telling, not hearing people, not telling stories. Why was it important for you to tell a story?

The— there are two reasons why this story— I felt like this story needed to be told. The first is Actually, there's probably 3, but I'll get to the 3rd one last. The 1st is I wanted my kids to know the story. I have 3 kids. Only the oldest, my eldest was alive and my mom died when they were 3. So I wanted my kids to kind of know the story of what I grew up with and around because there's a lot of background in there to explain, to kind of paint the picture and be who their grandfather was, who their grandmother was because she was gone and then who their grandfather was. And, you know, because once I connected with my sister, they know that part of the family. Now they're back across the country in New York, so there's not like— there's a connection. It's not like a, oh, we're best friends connection, but there's— they know each other. They all know each other. We've— I've been to their events. They— we've all been to events for each other's stuff and whatnot. So to have that thrust upon them when they were 10 and, uh, 10 and 14. It's kind of like, you need some background other than me telling you a story, because if Dad's telling you a story, you'll get bored and you'll stop listening. But you need to know the full story of what's going on here. So that was the most important thing, to just create a record for them. I said, because now they have it, they can share it with— if they have families, they can share whatever. Just create a record for it. The second was I wanted more people in the world— again, I didn't have any— I, I didn't do this with the delusions that I was going to be, you know, the top book in Oprah's Book Club and all the rest of stuff. Would that be wonderful? Yeah, it would. But that's not the purpose— was not money-making and fame-making here. I wanted more people to know, uh, my mom, who my mom was and the person she was. And the frustrations she faced and the limitations she allowed herself to be limited by. But it was a different time. Again, a different time. So a lot of people are like, why? Why couldn't she just— I was like, yeah, I mean, when she was growing up, she's growing up in the '50s and whatnot. It's like, it just, it just, you had to be really bold.

Yeah.

To do stuff, to go against and do and everything else like that. And there were plenty of people who did, thank God. And we have changes because of that, but they were few and far between.

Right.

You know, so the second part was that. The third part is because I wanted to— I like to tell stories, so I wanted to share stories with people. And I really enjoy connecting with folks who have, whether they've read it or listened and whatnot, I feel like I had the chance to sit down and tell them a story. And that's because that's how I created it in the audio booth, which is right here behind me, this audio booth here. It was like I had tried to write this book for 10 years and I couldn't get it done. I didn't know what the story— I don't know how to end it. I don't know why. Everything in my life has been created around, you know, I mean, sure, I wrote papers in school and all the rest of stuff, but it's been created around audio and some video and everything else. So it's all 20, you know, it's anywhere from 30 seconds to 22 minutes. Yeah. You know, and I was like, I can't— I can't figure it out. I can't figure it out. And I had— I even hired a ghostwriter for a while and I was like, now they're just writing a story about me.

Me.

This is not what I want. I, you know, I don't need all that detail. And I put it away. I was just like, ah, forget it. I had a friend who I had helped him create his podcast. He's an ex-NBA player who has a— it's called The Process in the— yeah, The Process in Denver. And his name is Paul Shirley. He's, uh, he's really brilliant. And, and I helped him put together his audiobook. For stories I tell on dates. A lot of the— a lot he would talk about. He was like the 13th man off the bench. He played for a couple of different NBA teams, but a lot in Europe. So he had all these stories on dates he was on. He would always start to tell a story about his childhood or growing up or anything else because it meant something. It reminded him it meant something. And he sent me this book and I was like, this is an audiobook, man. I said, but we can create it more than just you reading. I said, I can bring this to life. He's like, okay. So we brought it to life and we published it as an audiobook with— it's just he's the only male voice, but there are female voices for the female voices. There are sound effects, there are music. It's not hyper-produced, but it's produced enough to go, oh, okay. And this was at the beginning. This is like 2015. So there weren't a whole lot of these narrative podcasts that were deep and dark and everything else. And he did— it did well. He didn't make a ton of money off it, but it did well. So I stayed connected with him. And I was having dinner with him at near his place in Denver 2 years ago. And I said, "Dude, I just, I gotta get the story finished. I've been doing it so long." He goes, "Why don't you just go in the booth and say it?" He goes, "That's what you do. I watch you. I watched you for the years we were working together." He said, "When you're talking about stuff like this and you just get behind a mic or you sit here in the restaurant with me and you just, you can tell the story." I was like, Duh, duh. So he said, take your couple of first chapters, go in there. He says, because I know you don't like to stick to the script. I was like, yeah, you're right. I always got in trouble for that. He said, go in there and just bring it together and see what happens. So that's what happened. I went in the booth and I put them together and then I was like, okay, well, let me— I don't need to say that. I just did it the way I knew how to do it. And I would stay up, you know, 1:30 in the morning. Editing, putting it together with— here's some music, here's some sound, does this need sound effects? No. And here we go and put it together. And then I shared it with a couple of friends who I worked with in the podcast industry, and they were like, oh wow, I can't wait to hear the next chapter. Yeah, I was like, oh well, that's pressure now.

Yeah.

So yeah, it took about 9 months to put the whole thing together because I was doing it so late at night and everything else, but I eventually put the whole thing together, and then I was I still didn't know whether I was just going to keep it and share it with the kids, whether I was going to put an audio slash and transcribe it into a print book, or I was going to do a podcast with it. But I was like, you know, I think, you know, I don't know, you know, podcasts are great and I love them. But I think in this case, I want it to be able to be printed just so people can keep it that way. So I decided I'm going to go with audiobook and I'll transcribe an ebook and transcribe it into print.

Yeah.

And just took the slow steps through there again, hit some brick walls along the way, and then life kept— life kept intervening with people who would help and get push and get to the next level or show me how to do it. And here we are. We got it. We did it.

Yeah. Yeah. You've mentioned a few times about how life intervenes and how life keeps bringing you opportunities. What are your thoughts about how that happens, why that happens, that it seems like life is like, here, Rich, here is your opportunity to look at this.

Yeah, yeah. I, I think that we all, you know, again, it's, it's the energy you put into the world, right? So if you put enough energy into the world, um, and as much positive as you can, uh, not— it would be insane to think somebody would be positive, you know, 365, 7 days a week, 365. You can't— there's just, there's too much possible. There's too much in the world. It's too challenging right now. To, to expect that from someone. But if you keep moving, trying to move forward and keep reaching out to people and keep talking to humans and, and be yourself, be you and just be the best version of you, I think life will keep going. Sometimes there are opportunities we don't even recognize it. That's why it takes 4 or 5 times for life to knock on the door and go. And, you know, I don't want to make it sound like everything's perfect and everything's there's plenty of junk that happens on a daily and weekly basis and has in my life. And it would be easy to get wrapped up. I know we both know folks who get wrapped up in that life doesn't want me to succeed. No matter how hard I try, life doesn't want to get me to succeed. It sure does feel that way sometimes for everyone. But if you wear that as your t-shirt and that becomes your mantra, you know, then you're stuck there because you're not going to recognize clues or you're not going to act on clues because you think, well, I can't win anyway, I can't win anyway. But it could be like someone saying, well, this is, this is an easy leap for you right here. There's no danger. Everything else, it's, it's a small leap, but it's easy. It's like, no, I never win. I'm not going to do it. If, if you, you know, there's positive and negative. There's, you know, you have to make a choice when you're driving down the road. Am I going to drive the speed limit? Am I going to drive a little over because I need to make it fast? How far Where am I going to go? Because I don't want a ticket and I don't want to be— I want to be safe. I mean, we make choices like that every day about every little thing, you know? Yeah, I'm making a sandwich. Did I wash my hands? It's like, do I care? You mean that we make those choices every day about every little thing. But when people get into what they consider to be their life journey, I think they get stuck in— a lot of folks, get stuck in, "Well, no, this is the book that was written for me." Okay? And what we learn is that the book's being written every day. The book, until you leave, right? Until you leave, the book can always be rewritten. The book's being written every day. It's not, "Oh, this book was written and they stopped when I was 11 and this is what it is." Okay, well, a lot of people, there's a comfort in knowing that because the unknown is terrifying. Right? There's a comfort in knowing that the unknown can be, can be terrifying. It can be exhilarating. It can be what gets you going, but it can also be what stops you dead in your tracks. But it's, it's like your life, your life narrative doesn't change, uh, doesn't finish, at least this version of you, until you leave. And, you know, and whatever— I mean, again, I don't want to religious and whatnot here because I'm more spiritual than anything else. But, you know, maybe you get to— maybe you do get to write it again, another version of you, whatever. Maybe you don't. Again, I think positively and I feel like energy— energy is hard to— energy doesn't get destroyed.

Yeah.

So, and again, that goes to the— you had done a podcast. We talked before we got on about the podcast you did with Effie the, the medium and whatnot. There's, there's energy. I mean, I have— there's stuff that I detailed in the book about a medium who, you know, at the— in the, in the credits, that they are part of discovering this and doing this was there was an incredible medium who I had. So, you know, my father reached out to me, my mother and father at one point reached out to me, um, and, and they knew nothing. I gave them nothing. I literally was a walk, a cold call walk in and they started asking questions and I was like, I'm like, I'm not going to give them, I'm not going to see what they do. I was like, and they came out with some statements that just made me go, what? I was like, so that's encouraging, but it doesn't mean, you know, it also doesn't mean that you just live by what you know, you know. Yeah, live, live your life Be the best you can be. Live your life by The Four Agreements, and, and then make a decision on a daily basis. And every once in a while, take a step into the unknown. Yeah.

So Rich, what would you say to little Rich if you could go back in time to the little Rich that said, I wish I had a life like other people, I wish I had a father, you know, those things that he was saying? What would you say if you could talk to him now?

You know, the, um, the thing I would say to myself is, folk, you should see how— you know, I'd ask questions. How happy are you when you're with your mom? When you guys are doing this? When you guys are going to baseball games? When you guys— when she takes you bowling? When you do this? And I think, how happy are you in your friend group when you guys are playing and everything else like that? So the The anger you're carrying for being, uh, you know, a single— a child of a single mom, the anger you're carrying that, that because you, you don't feel— you don't feel like you're part of the group. Do your friends ever call you out on that? The answer would be no. Who calls you out on that then? The answer would be I do. Okay, so then you, you like to be good friends to your friends. You— are you being a good friend to you? And the answer would be, I don't know, no, obviously not. Let's try it as an experiment. It's just an experiment. One week, try write it on, write these things down, put them on your wall in your room and everything else, and try these things and try to be— start your day by being nice to you and end your day by being nice to you. And then when you think of stuff during the day that you're not being nice to you, just think, oh wait, Wait, I'm not supposed to be saying stuff like that right now. You don't need to. It's going to take a while. Try it and see what happens. See how you feel. Because, you know, I will also tell you that there are other people out there like you, plenty of them. Uh, they're all trying to keep the secret, and you're not alone. You're definitely not alone. Look at your life here. You're not alone. You got this family to take care of you. You got it. You got friends. You're good. So not having, you know, I think that would be, first of all, mind-boggling for me as a kid, you know, to have that. But even to read that, I think as a kid would have been amazing because talking about emotions was and talking about anger and whatnot, just like, no, no, bottle it up. No, it's not appropriate. Would have been great, would have been fantastic to have as a kid. And, um, yeah, I mean, yourself, Brian, what would you say to you as a kid?

Um, don't take things so seriously. You know, for me, it was, it was, I always wanted to know. You talked earlier about like the, the not knowing. I always wanted to know the answers. That's why I became an engineer, because I was like, if I'm an engineer, then there's a right and the wrong answer, you know. That's why I want to be able to figure things out. And the older I get, the more I realize you don't have to figure it all out, you know. It's gonna— it's, it's going to be okay. All these things that you think are tragedies, all these things that you, that you wish wouldn't have happened or wouldn't have— they all form who you're, who you're going to be, you know, in the future.

Yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. Uh, like I said, I mentioned The Four Agreements before. It's like don't make assumptions, right? Don't make assumptions because you're— and also don't take anything personally because whatever somebody's throwing at you is coming from their experience. It could be that from that moment you've triggered something in the past. It's coming from their perspective and their experience and not yours. Not yours. So don't adopt that. Don't adopt that and make it your own.

Yeah.

So, but yeah, knowing I always wanted to know all— I was questions, questions, questions, questions. And I, I, I didn't become an engineer. I just enjoyed— I love math. I was always really good at math and everything else, but I was like, that's not what I want to do. I want to do something cool and fun.

Yeah.

And whatnot. So, but yeah, I— you mentioned about being an engineer. An engineer from JPL is the person who was my artist that did the art in the book.

Oh, wow.

Wow. He does it as his side hustle because that's his creative outlet.

Yeah, exactly. Well, I, well, I became an engineer for a couple— one, it was I wanted to make a lot of money. And so I thought that was a way to make a lot of money. And I, and I also, I had that type of mind. But now I love doing creative stuff. So I love doing stuff like this. And that's, that's my favorite thing to do is, is to, is to create and to tell story or help people tell their stories. So, uh, yeah, I think there's that side of me now that I've, I've only discovered later on. So Um, right, Richard, I really enjoyed the time with you today. Remind people of the name of your book and where they can get it.

It is The Not-So-Only Child: My True Story, and it is available on Amazon in print or ebook, uh, Audible, Amazon Audible, um, and Kindle for right now. Um, and it'll be widely— more widely available after the end of the year. So I'm not sure when this podcast will drop, but it'll be more widely available after the first of the year.

Okay. Well, we're recording this in late October 2025, so by the time people hear it, it'll be toward the end of 2025. So by, you know, it'll be in 2026, it'll be out more widely available. So that's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. But they can definitely— it's easy to find. Easy to find. I can send you a link if you want to put in the show notes. It's fine.

Yeah, that sounds awesome. So Rich, again, thanks for being here.

Thank you, dude. Thank you. Um, I, uh, I found a new cool podcast to keep in my library thanks to, you know, the connection that we made having me on here. When I started listening to yours, I was like, yeah, I, I dig your vibe and what you're doing.

So thanks.

Thank you.

Appreciate it. All right, enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

You too. All right, take care.

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