The Romantic Near Death Experience Movie That Will Blow Your Mind EP 411

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi there, I'm Brian D Smith. I'm your host at Grief 2 Growth. And whether you're joining us for the very first time, or you've been on this journey for a while, I want to say welcome to you. This is a podcast where we explore the big questions: who we are, why we're here, and what's coming next. Together, we navigate the complexities of life, of grief, of growth, uncovering ways to heal, finding meaning, and embracing the magic of just being human. And today I'm thrilled to bring you a conversation that dives deep into the intersection of creativity, healing, and spirituality. My guest today is Max Rissman, a filmmaker who has been captivated by the power of stories to transform our lives since he was a child. When Max was just 4 years old, he convinced his parents to reenact The Wizard of Oz with him every night, planting the seeds of a lifelong passion for storytelling. After earning his MFA from NYU's prestigious film program Max now creates deeply moving films about wounded characters learning to forgive themselves and to heal. And isn't that all of us? His first feature film, Upon Waking, will be released this Valentine's Day on Amazon Prime, Fandango, and Hoopla. And it's a powerful exploration of loss, transformation, and the journey towards self-acceptance. And I was fortunate enough, Max sent me a copy of the film to watch before, and it's fantastic. So I want to say, first of all, I do recommend it. In this episode, we're going to dive deep into the spiritual side of filmmaking, how Max taps into intuition and creativity to bring his projects to life. We'll also explore how NDEs and other profound moments of transformation shapes the stories he tells. If you've ever wondered whether or not you're ready to embark on a big creative endeavor, or art can be a pathway to healing, you don't want to miss this conversation. And remember, the conversation doesn't end here. Join me in the Grief 2 Growth community at grief2growth.com/community afterwards to keep the dialogue going. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief 2 Growth Max Rissman.

Hi, thanks so much for inviting me.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for being here. And I appreciate you sharing the film with me. I had a chance to watch it last week, and it was awesome. But before we get started on that, I have to ask you about The Wizard of Oz, because that is, that is my all-time favorite movie. And the age difference between you and I, when I was young, it came on once a year. And so if you didn't see it, then you didn't get to see it, but I watched it every year. So tell me about your fascination with that, with that film.

Man, well, I can't even imagine growing up in a time when you couldn't like pop in a, you know, a VCR or, you know, it was dark days. Something. Yeah, for sure. But, but yeah, no, I You know, I think I must have seen it when I was like 3 years old. And, you know, I would dress up as a scarecrow like pretty much every chance I got. And yeah, I mean, you know, it's just such a, you know, beautiful, captivating film. But, you know, I think the, you know, the message that, you know, you are— you have what you're seeking inside of you and, you know, you can go on a big elaborate, exciting journey and meet all these people and have all these adventures. And it's worth doing that. But at the end of the day, you do possess what you're seeking at a deep level inside of you. That message always stuck with me, and I probably couldn't understand it as a 3-year-old, but it must have sparked something in me because it's It was very influential.

Yeah. Well, I think that movie hits on so many levels because I liked it when I was a kid too. And then I, you know, watching it over and over again, every time you get like a different message, it hits you at a different level. At least that was my experience.

Totally, totally.

Yeah. So what, when did you decide to become a filmmaker?

Yeah, so I always, I was writing, I, I was a theater kid, you know, growing up. And so I acted in all the school plays and I started writing plays when I was a teenager. And then when I was in college, I had an opportunity to study abroad in Prague in the Czech Republic. And that was just a magical experience because, you know, Prague is this magical medieval city with all these, you know, castles and, you know, super historic architecture. And I was studying at this film school that was like one of the only and, you know, kind of the preeminent film school behind the Iron Curtain for, you know, a lot of directors coming out of the kind of communist bloc. And so a lot of, you know, very well-known directors like Miloš Šormin studied there, and he ultimately came to America and, you know, directed One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest and a lot of, you know, super well-regarded films out of Hollywood, but he got his start in Prague at this film school that I, you know, was also attending. So that was a really inspirational experience. And I got to make my first short film there. And I just got totally hooked. So yeah, after that, I just knew that I had to be a filmmaker.

Yeah. So how do you choose the subjects for your films? Because I mean, film can be anything, right? I mean, literally, you can make movies about anything. How do you choose the subjects that you make your films about?

Right. Um, yeah, I mean, it kind of just, you know, a lot of the times it just hits me. Um, you know, I get a lot of inspiration just from thinking, you know, what would it be like if... or, you know, what, uh, what would happen? Uh, kind of just asking what-if questions all the time and, you know, exploring how characters would would deal with and, you know, act in certain situations. You know, with Upon Waking, I was— I knew I wanted to make my first feature film and I wanted to come up with an idea that could be done, you know, in a relatively contained way with not too many characters, not too many locations. That's kind of like the, you know, the rule of thumb for like trying to make an inexpensive, um, you know, first feature film. And I was really struggling to come up with what story I even wanted to tell. Um, and, you know, I was just kind of iterating a lot of different ideas and nothing was really working. But, um, when I started learning more about near-death experiences and, uh, how transformative they can be for the people who undergo them, you know, people often emerge from them with a totally new, uh, perspective on, on life and what's important and what matters. Uh, and that combined with, um, you know, the idea of people, uh, falling in love, um, and how transformative that can be, um, you know, to combine love and the near-death experience was a very compelling, uh, notion for me. So I, I just took it and ran with it.

Yeah, I think— well, I think you did a great job with it. You know, I have to say, when I got the email from you and said you had a film about near-death experience. I assumed it was a documentary, uh, because most people don't— this is not a subject a lot of people, I think, cover in film. I was, I was really surprised to see that it was a feature film, or a fictional film, I guess. Um, but that was really, really well done. And you mentioned, you know, those films where it's a contained, you know, limited set and limited number of characters, which I could see for budget reasons is necessary for some films. But those are some of my favorite films because then you've got to really focus on the characters instead of focusing on all the CGI and the action and stuff like that. You know, you can really focus on the dialogue and the characters. And that's what I really loved about that. And through the course of this film, you get to know the characters, you know, very, very well.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, I personally have never experienced an NDE, you know, so all everything I know from near-death experiences comes from you know, learning and reading and research. But yeah, just kind of being able to, you know, synthesize all these experiences that people have gone through and all the parallels and create the story was, you know, it was really compelling and really rewarding.

Yeah. So I liked— it was interesting. I love the part in the movie where, like, they— and I don't want to give a lot away because, you know, I want people to watch the film and to be you know, not have me give any too many spoilers. But, um, you know, there's different rules to different realities. And at one point, the character describes, this is the rule to— these are the rules of the reality that we're in. I thought that was really well done, uh, to talk about. I love the way you introduced that to this place that they find themselves in. And it was also, I think, really cool that you did a shared NDE, because people don't talk a lot about shared death experiences either. So I think that's something that is going to be new to people, um, because this— that actually does happen. So these characters find themselves in a shared death experience.

Yeah, exactly. And you know, what, what could be a more powerful way to, you know, to get to know someone and to, you know, uh, fall in love with someone than, you know, to kind of, uh, you know, be— have to leave this physical world behind and, you know, kind of strip away all of the artifices and, you know, pretensions of, um, you know, of, of normal reality and like really delve deep into this kind of, uh, you know, by being trapped together on the spiritual plane, um, you know, that's, uh, that was definitely something that, uh, you know, I, I thought irresistible to explore. Yeah, you know, because in the film, like, you know, these two characters, they go on a first date and it's not going very well You know, and they're kind of like polar opposites and probably would not wind up together. But, you know, being trapped together in this near-death experience, you know, they really get to connect on a much deeper level and, you know, you know, get past all of the nonsense that people usually talk about on first dates.

Yeah, yeah, I thought that was, again, I think that was really interesting about the film, the way the characters did come together. And I love the themes of, um, you know, forgiveness. You know, that's, that's a big part of the near-death experience, both for other people and for ourselves, and how each of the characters, you know, developed that. Um, so I, I think that's a, a film— I think a feature of a lot of your films is you talk about those types of things. Is that true?

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, forgiveness is a super important theme and, you know, it comes in so many different flavors. And yeah, and so that's definitely something that I always find myself exploring, you know, in a variety of different genres and a variety of different, you know, super different kind of stories. You know, I always find myself coming back to talking about forgiveness. Yeah.

So what's, what was the, what's the process like of making a film like this? Um, when you don't have a major budget, right? And you've gotta find actors and all that kind of stuff. How does that work? Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

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Uh, it's— I mean, it's a crazy process. Um, you know, you need, uh, you certainly need funds, and you certainly, you know, you need actors, you need crew, you need the money to do it, to hire everyone. Um, and, uh, you know, you need just kind of the logistical and, um, you know artistic experience to like, to know what you're doing. Um, and, uh, so yeah, so I mean, I made a bunch of short films when I was in school, and that was, you know, some level of, of practice, but, um, it really doesn't prepare you for the, um, you know, the giant, uh, ship that you have to steer when you're, when you're making a feature film. Um, you know, that as far as, um, films go, this was a very, you know, on a very small scale, um, you know, it's considered like, you know, very low budget, um, even though, uh, you know, it still costs a lot, um, yeah, but, uh, but yeah, you know, like when you're making a bigger film, then there's all this infrastructure.

We were interrupted there, but we're back. So we're going to talk about like the process of making the film, what that's like to try to, I guess, gather a budget and find actors and find crew and all that when you don't have a studio or something backing you?

Right, right. So yeah, I mean, if you're, you know, trying to make a film, you need a lot of things. You need, you need actors, you know, you need crew, you need equipment, you know, you need locations, and you need the money to pay for everything. And then after the film is shot, you know, there's a whole big post-production process that also takes quite a lot of time. So yeah, I mean, you basically, you need people with expertise in all of these different areas, you know, to kind of do their— be at their best and elevate the film, you know, in their specific, you know, area of expertise. And then you need the logistical abilities to kind of coordinate everything and, you know, make sure everything is running along the right track. And then, you know, you need to, as a director, you know, you don't really know how to do everything. In fact, you, there's a lot of things that you don't know how to do, you know, but the key is to kind of empower people to, you know, be at their best. And then, you know, they come to you with questions. And, you know, it's a collaborative process in every, in every aspect of filmmaking, where you're collaborating with the people that you've empowered to, you know, make the best work. So you're kind of the, the central nervous system of the film. And, and yeah, I mean, you know, it's, it can be a very lonely experience, because you're, you know, you're just desperately trying to get this movie to breathe life into this movie. And, you know, you feel like you're walking in the middle of thin air. And, you know, you could just plummet to the ground at any moment. But it's also a very, you know, communal and, you know, connecting experience because you're connecting with all these different artists, all these, you know, people have come together to like, make this— make your dream come true. And it's very inspiring and very gratifying. And yeah, I mean, basically, you know, you go through a lot of pain and a lot of torment and a lot of stress to, you know, come together for a couple of weeks and make something beautiful. And that— and those couple of weeks makes all that other time worth it.

Yeah. So I'm curious, how do you— because the characters are so interesting and all the different things we talked about, you know, we talked about forgiveness. We talked about self-forgiveness. We talked— and there's a lot about family dynamics in there, um, you know, with the different characters and, and, and how those interrelate. So how do you come up with that? Is, is it— do you feel like it's— do you just make it up, or are you inspired somehow? Do you think it comes from somewhere else, or where does that come from?

Um, yeah, sure. I mean, I, uh, I, I think it comes from universal, um, themes that we all, you know, that everybody goes through, like You know, certainly I have my own fears and insecurities and, you know, doubts. And I can kind of, you know, filter that through like the different characters and, you know, the particular issues that they're going through. And, you know, each person is dealing with their own iteration of the I guess you'd call it the collective shadow, but it is a collective shadow. And that's what enables storytellers to tell a story that makes sense and resonates with another person is because there's all these underlying currents that are running through all of our lives. And while the particulars might be different, the core of, of, you know, what people are going through is, is the same, I think. So, yeah. So, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of the characters are, you know, come from myself, but it also, you know, comes from, you know, what I think are kind of universal, you know, themes and elements to every person's internal world. Yeah.

So what role do you think that spirituality plays in filmmaking for both you personally and even for your audience?

Yeah, sure. I mean, just the fact that, you know, every movie is such a leap of faith. And, you know, there's so much uncertainty and so much, you know, instability and so many things that can go wrong and almost do go wrong. And then somehow, you know, the ship stays on course is, you know, that, that is a real leap of faith to kind of say, okay, I'm going to make this movie and then, but I don't know how I'm going to make it happen. You know, but then you figure it out and you do. You know, I can say for every one of my film projects and everyone that I know who's made a film, has had so many, you know, I guess you'd call them near-death experiences of filmmaking where, like, the film almost crashed on the rocks and died.

Yeah.

But, you know, it managed to be salvaged. And oftentimes, you know, the thing that you were so upset about losing or, you know, threatened to derail the film turned out to be the best thing that could have happened. So it really is kind of an exercise in stepping into the unknown, is making a movie. And yeah, and I mean, you know, not every film has spiritual themes, you know, some films can just be purely, you know, entertainment, and that's great. But yeah, you know, I had the privilege of taking this film to several film festivals and you know, screening in front of audiences. And, you know, it doesn't resonate with everybody. But for the people who it does resonate with, it seems to make a major impact on them. And, you know, I— it's kind of every filmmaker's dream to, you know, be sitting in front of a stranger watching your movie and hearing them cry behind you. And, you know, that was kind of the, the, the cream on the cake, if you will. You know, and I never, I never had a conversation with this person. I never, you know, met this person, but to kind of hear them crying while, you know, watching something that I just pulled out of my head, you know, was a very meaningful and gratifying experience for me.

I would imagine that would be, you know, the thing is, I was thinking that there's some movies that are, you know, they're just made for entertainment. You know, they don't, they don't really move us. They don't change us. We go to the theater, we watch it, we might laugh, Uh, we might be scared. You know, there's a whole lot of horror films out there now that, you know, you could say are spiritual because they're talking about, you know, demons or whatever. But there's also those films that you can tell are designed to deliver a message, to move us, and maybe we even leave the theater changed. Um, I think that's what I see in a film like this. It's so What messages would you want for people that are coming into your film to take away with them?

Yeah, sure. I mean, I, I don't know how many people have heard of near-death experiences and the kind of the whole zeitgeist around them. You know, I'm sure many have, but many haven't. And for people to know that that's a thing and that, you know, it's actually something that, you know, there's a lot of common experiences that people have when they, you know, have NDEs and that there's a, you know, there's, there's inexplicable things that happen when people have NDEs that, you know, that really challenge the notion that, you know, we live in a purely material universe. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, that is definitely something I hope for people to at least be curious about if they haven't heard of or delved into NDEs before. But also, you know, to— well, the film, there's a lot of people confronting their shadow selves in the film. You know, and having— because they're kind of in this spirit, you know, the spirit realm, you know, their shadows and their fears and insecurities are, you know, basically they come to life.

Right.

And, you know, I think a lot of people struggling with these, these kind of issues, you know, they feel very alone and they feel, you know, not like they're the only person who might be dealing with these kinds of things, even though, you know, that couldn't be further from the truth. So, you know, I hope that people might, you know, realize that their self-loathing and their insecurity is not strictly confined to them, that everyone is dealing with that on some level, and that, um, you know, uh, it's, it's a— there's a way for people to, um, transcend those things.

Yeah. Well, I think, you know, for, for me, it's interesting with film, or when you're watching a movie or reading a book or something, I think to really, to really get into it, you have to somehow be able to relate to the characters, even though they may be very different from you. Superficial level. So for me, you know, being a Black man in my 60s and watching a movie about two young, young white women, it's like we don't have that, that connection that you might see, you know, uh, on the surface, superficially. But I love the way you brought through, as you said, the insecurities and the fears and all the things that we all have that we can all relate to. And again, I think the family dynamics, you know, the things that were going on there And watching the characters develop as they went through the struggle, I thought was really— it was really moving for me. And I'm curious, you said you've taken it to some film festivals and you heard someone behind you, you know, crying. What kind of responses did you get from people? What kind of comments did you get?

Uh, yeah, sure. Um, I mean, so I don't think that everyone gets this film. Um, you know, I think that a certain you know, a certain type of person gets it and, you know, it's not for everybody. But, you know, for the people who got it and that it resonated for, you know, they've, you know, I— they didn't really get into too many specifics about like what particularly stood out to them, but just, you know, the fact that it impacted them. And, you know, it's something that they would take with them after they left the theater. You know, that's, that's really what I remember.

Well, I think, you know, the NDEs, everybody knows the term now, you know, a few years ago, nobody knew what it was. Some people still don't know exactly what it is. So I think you're doing a good, good job of this film of educating people. And again, as I said, even before, and even more rare thing or unknown thing would be a shared death experience, which is a thing for anybody that's listening that doesn't know. Uh, there are people that have had shared death experiences where they both cross over at the same time, or one person crosses over and the other person's here and they have a connection as it's going on. So I, I appreciate— I applaud you for being brave enough to do something like this. As you said, you know, I guess not everybody is, is going to get It's kind of weird for me to hear that because I'm like, why wouldn't everybody get it? But not everybody is, is at the level of thinking about these things that we are. So I think you're bringing that hopefully more into the mainstream, and people will find the film and, and find out more about that. I'm curious, what are the, uh, what were the responses from the actors and that were playing in it? What did they talk about their characters?

Um, yeah, I mean, um So certainly they, you know, they related to the struggles that, you know, the characters were going through. Mm-hmm. And just kind of the feelings of not being loved and, you know, being unlovable or, you know, having, you know, family members who didn't understand them. You know, they certainly related to those elements a lot. And actually, the actors were very, you know, they were like best friends in real life. So they kind of had an automatic built-in chemistry, which was super useful for, you know, directing them.

Okay.

And, and yeah, and they were, you know, they were kind of able to tap into that shared history to, you know, deliver on that, that intimacy. So yeah, that was, that was, you know, really crucial. But, but yeah, I feel like, you know, everyone in the, you know, both in the cast and crew, you know, they had some personal connection to the material. Like, I know that one of the crew members, you know, had like, you know, came up to me when we were shooting one particular scene and, you know, was getting very emotional and said that they had a, like, you know, a very similar experience to what one of the characters had, you know, in her life. And it was, you know, it was kind of uncanny how similar this, you know, person on the crew was, you know, how the film was reflecting her life, you know, so there was a lot of you know, kind of uncanny happenings going on when we were filming.

Yeah. So did you— we talked earlier about like the process of making a film, and I know there's some challenges that come across with any film. Were there any particular challenges that you came— you ran into while you were making this film?

Yeah, sure. I mean, you know, we lost, you know, certain crew people, we lost certain, you know, actors. We actually started filming having only cast the two lead actors. We didn't have any other actors, you know, on board. But, you know, the date was coming up and we were like, okay, well, we need to start. So we have like one week of filming with just the two main characters. And, you know, we were able to cast the rest of the roles like during our lunch breaks. But, you know, yeah, it was very much like a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants kind of experience. And, you know, I mean, we were filming during COVID and like everybody got sick, but it wasn't COVID. So, you know, we were able to keep filming. But if it had happened to be COVID, then, you know, we would have been totally screwed. So yeah, I mean, I'd have to kind of like, go, you know, through my memory and write down a list of like, things that, you know, almost fell apart or whatever, or did fall apart, but then something came to replace it. But you know, there, that's like, you know, a guarantee in if you're making a movie is like, 1000 things will go wrong.

But then yeah, I imagine it's a big leap of faith, right? So you start filming with just the two lead characters cast and just say, okay, we'll find the other people as we go along. So, um, it's a really interesting subject for your first feature film. Do you feel like you were intuitively guided to this subject, or do you feel like spirit played any role in your choice?

Sure. I mean, um, I feel like I was being led, uh, by the film. You know, I didn't really know where where I was going when I was writing or like, you know, what direction the story was taking me, you know, and I wrote it over like a couple of years. And yeah, for a long time, you know, I felt like it really wasn't working and, you know, I wasn't getting anywhere and I was kind of banging my head against the wall. But, you know, something told me to keep persisting and keep going with it. And yeah, it really felt like this story, you know, gradually revealed itself to me rather than, you know, myself being the, the driving force behind creating it. So, you know, that, that was, you know, that, you know, that was a major, you know, sign that, you know, something else was going on. And then, yeah, just as I mentioned earlier, You know, the filmmaking process just has so many uncertainties and so many, you know, there's so much kind of whiplash of, you know, you think something's gonna go one way and then it goes complete the complete opposite way. That, you know, you kind of just need to allow things to unfold as they do.

Yeah. So now that the film is done, I imagine you feel a sense of relief. But now you've got the release coming up in— and as we're recording this in about a month— what are your hopes for the film in terms of what you'd like to see it do, or just where would you like to see it go?

Yeah, I mean, I hope that, you know, as many people watch it as possible, as many people, you know, resonate with it as possible, and that, you know, it finds a long, you know, a long life of, you know, people discovering it and recommending it and you know, for it to make a difference in people's lives. You know, that's, that's the big hope. It's, you know, it's a very challenging environment right now to release a movie. You know, I could— there's a million reasons why. But, you know, the film industry has been going through a lot of turmoil recently.

Right.

And especially for the kind of the little fish in the pond. You know, like myself, you know, it can be really tough to cut through the noise and, you know, for anyone to discover your work just because there's, you know, there's so much competing for eyeballs.

So. Right, right.

You know, I'm just hoping that enough people discover it and recommend it.

Yeah. So have you— have you thought about like going to certain organizations that promote spiritual type of stuff and, and seeing if they— I know we're doing this and I'm, I'm happy to help as much as possible. I just wonder what other avenues you've pursued in trying to get the word out.

Um, yeah, things like this. Um, you know, reaching out to people like yourself who talk about these topics and, um, you know, trying to, you know, just, um, find, find the audience and, and you know, make it available to them.

Yeah. So, you know, it's funny, I wrote a book, everybody's written a book now. But I remember I was going through some coaching, the guy, the guy was like, well, don't think about this as writing your book. Think about this as writing your first book. Right? Because we're going to be doing other things. So do you have plans for other films in the future?

Absolutely. Yeah. I don't know which, you know, which film is going to be my next film. But, you know, I mean, I'm always writing, I have a bunch of screenplays that I would love to do next. And, you know, it's, you know, it's a matter of just finding the right partners and, you know, getting access to the right resources. And, you know, every, every film is like, you know, just starting from scratch all over again.

I imagine. Yeah.

But, but yeah, no, I certainly don't feel like this is my only film, right? And, you know, there's, uh, there's a few ideas that I'd love to, to make for my next one.

So for, for someone who is thinking about getting on the creative path that wants to do something creative, uh, what would be your advice to them?

Um, yeah, well, I mean, I think that totally depends on what, um, what path that is. There are so many creative paths and, you know, so many, you know, things that people don't necessarily consider to be an art form. But, you know, that is— that requires a ton of creativity. But, but yeah, I mean, you know, and every kind of art form is, is so totally different. You know, I really only can, can speak to you know, my own experience as a filmmaker and as a writer. But yeah, I mean, you know, as in terms of writing, you're, you know, right, like, you know, writing can be frustrating and kind of hard. And, you know, writer's block, you know, is kind of a something that everybody knows about and has heard about. And, you know, there can be a lot of inertia and resistance there. But, you know, kind of once you get over, you know, once you get to a place where you're more comfortable writing than not writing, you know, then your, you know, then the writing kind of takes on a life of its own. Like, you know, I feel better on days when I write than on days when I don't. And, you know, if I haven't written in a while, then I start to go crazy. So, you know, once you, you know, give— once you find yourself— once you make yourself write enough that, you know, you feel better writing than not writing, then, you know, then you're in a good place because, you know, eventually— because, you know, writing sustains you and feeds you. And even if, you know, you don't attain any kind of outward success, you know, the writing in and of itself is, you know, feeds your soul and is something that, you know, gives you— is a gift in and of itself. And yeah, and I mean, in terms of filmmaking, you know, there's a ton of, you know, every film is such a big investment. You know, I mean, you know, you can make a short film with, you know, not very many resources. And, you know, that's, and that's amazing. And you should absolutely do that. But, you know, when you're attempting a bigger project, you know, be very intentional about, you know, the, the people who you work with and the people who you partner with. Because, you know, um, yeah, the, the people who, you know, it's such a collective endeavor that, um, right, you know, the people who you work with are going to bring so much to the table that that's going to, you know, greatly affect the, um, the work that you wind up making, right?

So I— you, you mentioned earlier that you were— you've been working on this, on the writing, I think you said a couple years. Um, was there ever a point where you just said— and I think you kind of maybe alluded this a little bit— was there ever a point where you just said, okay, this is not going to happen, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get this out, this idea is probably, you know, I, I can't finish it? Or did you ever feel any point where it's like, this is it, I'm done?

Uh, I mean, it was definitely frustrating for a long time. Um, I don't know if I— well, that's kind of the thing, because if I'd said that, then I would have moved on to something else and, and that would have been the end of that. And I have, you know, that's happened with plenty of projects where, you know, I work on it for a while and then I'm like, okay, I've gotten this, you know, either this isn't working and I'm finished, or, you know, I've gotten this to, you know, a certain place, but, you know, it's time to move on to work on something else. You know, that happens all the time. But with this particular idea, you know, there was something telling me not to give up on it. And, you know, I think that's kind of the, you know, yeah. And I, you know, I kind of had to trust that voice.

Yeah, that's, that's kind of what I was thinking, too. It seems like if you're— I would imagine you probably get lots of ideas and you said, you know, some of them come to fruition, some of them don't. But the thing I found is true, it's like a lot of times we have to go through a dark night even with, even with the project. We all hear about the dark night of the soul, but maybe with the project or an endeavor that we're working on, and there's something about, you know, trusting in spirit. I've heard some people say sometimes, well, if it's intended to be, it'll be easy. And I don't think that's necessarily true. Um, so if we have that thing that, that, you know, I think you mentioned this earlier, maybe it's kind of like having— it's like you're— it's like your baby, right? You're you're, you're developing this thing, and, you know, having a baby is painful. I know, you know, you have a child, you know, so you've seen that with your, with your partner. Having a baby is painful. It's not an easy process. And I would imagine putting out something like this into the world has got to have some difficulty and maybe a little bit of fear too. How are people going to react to this?

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you, you said it. You said it all. I have nothing to add to that.

Yeah, I just, um, Yeah, and I guess I want to applaud your bravery for taking on a subject that's not as well known, that maybe not be as entertaining, that, you know, maybe some people say, okay, what was that? What did I just watch? Which is, again, not my reaction at all. But to, to go after that audience that is going to connect with it, and I think it will connect with them in a very deep way.

Yeah, well, You know, that's, that's the hope. That's the dream.

Yeah. So, um, as we, as we're recording this, this will be out, you know, in a little while. But when people hear this, most people hearing this, the film will already be out. So let people, remind people of the name of the film, and where they'll be able to find it.

Definitely. So the film is called Upon Waking. And it'll be available on Amazon, it'll be available on Hoopla and Fandango at first. And then in a few months, in May, it'll roll out to more streaming services, you know, Tubi and Pluto and several other streaming services. So, you know, if you just Google, you know, Upon Waking film, you know, it'll tell you where to watch, you know, whenever you might be listening to this.

And there's a website for the film too, right?

Yeah. And the website is, uh, uponwakingfilm.com.

Okay, uponwakingfilm.com. And again, I want to tell people, I've already said it, that I, I've watched it. I was really impressed by it. Um, I think it's, it's a great film, even if you know— if you don't know the subject, it's something to familiarize with it. If you do know the subject, I think you'll find it, uh, really, really interesting and still will make you think about, like, you know, some of the things we talked about, you know, the themes of forgiveness of others, forgiveness of self, you know, the family dynamic issues that are in there. And it's, it's actually really entertaining as well.

Well, thank you so much for, for watching and for making the time to, to chat. And, um, yeah, it was, it was an absolute pleasure.

Yeah, well, Max, I, I wish you luck with it, and, uh, let me know how it goes.

Thank you so much.

All right, have a great afternoon.

You too. Take care. many creative paths and, you know, so many, you know, things that people don't necessarily consider to be an art form, but, you know, that is, that requires a ton of creativity. But, but yeah, I mean, you know, and every kind of art form is, is so totally different. You know, I really only can, can speak to you know, my own experience as a filmmaker and as a writer. But yeah, I mean, you know, as in terms of writing, you're, you know, right, like, you know, writing can be frustrating and kind of hard. And, you know, writer's block, you know, is kind of a something that everybody knows about and has heard about. And, you know, there can be a lot of inertia and resistance there. But, you know, kind of once you get over, you know, once you get to a place where you're more comfortable writing than not writing, you know, then your, you know, then the writing kind of takes on a life of its own. Like, you know, I feel better on days when I write than on days when I don't. And, you know, if I haven't written in a while, then I start to go crazy. So, you know, once you, you know, give— once you find yourself— once you make yourself write enough that, you know, you feel better writing than not writing, then, you know, then you're in a good place because, you know, eventually— because, you know, writing sustains you and feeds you. And even if, you know, you don't attain any kind of outward success, you know, the writing in and of itself is, you know, feeds your soul and is something that, you know, gives you— is a gift in and of itself. And yeah, and I mean, in terms of filmmaking, you know, there's a ton of, you know, every film is such a big investment. You know, I mean, you know, you can make a short film with you know, not very many resources. And, you know, that's, and that's amazing. And you should absolutely do that. But, you know, when you're attempting a bigger project, you know, be very intentional about, you know, the, the people who you work with and the people who you partner with. Because, you know, um, yeah, the, the people who, you know, it's such a collective endeavor that, um, right, you know, the people who you work with are going to bring so much to the table that that's gonna, you know, greatly affect the, um, the work that you wind up making, right?

So I— you, you mentioned earlier that you were— you've been working this on the writing, if you think you said a couple years, um, was there ever a point where you just said— and I think you kind of maybe alluded this a little bit— was there a point where you just said, okay, this is not going to happen, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get this out, this idea is probably, you know, I, I can't finish it? Or did you ever feel any point where it's like, this is it, I'm done?

Uh, I mean, it was definitely frustrating for a long time. Um, I don't know if I— well, that's kind of the thing, because if I'd said that, then I would have moved on to something else and, and that would have been the end of that. And I have, you know, that's happened with plenty of projects where, you know, I work on it for a while and then I'm like, okay, I've gotten this, you know, either this isn't working and I'm finished or, you know, I've gotten this to, you know, a certain place, but, you know, it's time to move on to work on something else. You know, that happens all the time. But with this particular idea, you know, there was something telling me not to give up on it. And, you know, I think that's kind of the, um, you know, yeah. And I, you know, I kind of had to trust that voice.

Yeah, I— that's, that's kind of what I was thinking too. It seems like if you're, um, I would imagine you probably get lots of ideas, and you said, you know, some of them come to fruition, some of them don't. But the thing I, I found is true, it's like a lot of times we have to go through a dark night even with, even with the project. We all hear about the dark night of the soul, but maybe with the project or an endeavor that we're working on, and there's something about, you know, trusting in spirit. I've heard some people say sometimes, well, if it's intended to be, it'll be easy, and I don't think that's necessarily true. Um, so if we have that thing that, that, you know, I think you mentioned this earlier, maybe we were— it's kind of like having— it's like you're— it's like your baby, right? You're, you're developing this thing and you know, having a baby is painful. I know, you know, you have a child, you know, so you've seen that with your, with your partner. Having a baby is painful. It's not an easy process. And I would imagine putting out something like this into the world has got to have some difficulty and maybe a little bit of fear too. How are people going to react to this?

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you, you said it. You said it all. I have nothing to add to that.

Yeah, I just, um Yeah, and I guess I want to applaud your bravery for taking on a subject that's not as well known, that maybe not be as entertaining, that, you know, maybe some people say, okay, what was that? What did I just watch? Which is, again, not my reaction at all. But to go after that audience that is going to connect with it, and I think it will connect with them in a very deep way.

Yeah, well, You know, that's, that's the hope. That's the dream.

Yeah. So as we, as we're recording this, this will be out, you know, in a little while. But when people hear this, most people hearing this, the film will already be out. So let people, remind people of the name of the film, and where they'll be able to find it.

Definitely. So the film is called Upon Waking. And it'll be available on Amazon, it'll be available on Hoopla and Fandango at first. And then in a few months, in May, it'll roll out to more streaming services, you know, Tubi and Pluto and several other streaming services. So, you know, if you just Google, you know, Upon Waking film, you know, it'll tell you where to watch, you know, whenever you might be listening to this.

And there's a website for the film too, right?

Yeah. And the website is, uh, uponwakingfilm.com.

Okay, uponwakingfilm.com. And again, I want to tell people, I've already said it, that I, I've watched it. I was really impressed by it. Um, I think it's, it's a great film, even if you know— if you don't know the subject, it's something to familiarize with it. If you do know the subject, I think you'll find it, uh, really, really interesting and still will make you think about, like, you know, some of the things we talked about, you know, the themes forgiveness of others, forgiveness of self, you know, the family dynamic issues that are in there. And it's, it's actually really entertaining as well.

Well, thank you so much for, for watching and for making the time to, to chat. And, um, yeah, it was, it was an absolute pleasure.

Yeah, well, Max, I, I wish you luck with it, and, uh, let me know how it goes.

Thank you so much.

All right, have a great afternoon.

You too. Take care.

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