The SHOCKING Truth About Death Planning: Why Jane Duncan Rogers Says You Can’t Wait!

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet.

I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you.

I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. We don't like to think about the fact that one day we and our loved ones will part. But our next guest, Jane Duncan Rogers, was forced to think about that when her husband was diagnosed with a terminal illness. Jane now has founded Before I Go Solutions to help us all think about that before we have to think about it when our loved ones are diagnosed with a terminal illness, or when they pass unexpectedly. Doing this planning is a gift to yourself and your loved one. It prevents them from going through the trauma of trying to figure out what you wanted after you've passed. And it also can be a bonding experience while they're still here. So what we're going to do today is give you some very practical tips as to how you can get started with this planning today and make it not as painful as it seems to be.

Hi there. Welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. And today I've got with me Jane Duncan Rogers, and I'm really excited to talk to Jane. I heard about her offering. It's very unique. It's very much needed. So I reached out to her and asked her, and she graciously agreed to appear on Grief 2 Growth. She was devastated when her husband died. This was not in their plans. Of course, her greatest fear had come true. She was on her own again at age 54 and without children. However, little did she know that 3 years later, she would publish a book called Gifted by Grief, and we're going to talk about that today. So you might ask, how could she be gifted by this terrible loss? And yet she was, and that's led her directly to what she does now. Her background of 25 years in the coaching and training field have been perfect for the now— for the nonprofit foundation that she runs. She founded in 2016, Before I Go Solutions. Together with her accredited team of internationally based end-of-life planning facilitators, she offers products and programs to help people complete their end-of-life plans. Now, 90% of people say that this is essential, but only 14% get around to doing it. So with that, I want to welcome to the show Jane Duncan Rogers.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

It really is.

Jane, I said I'm really excited about having this conversation with you today. I know that what you offer, end of life planning, is something that we all need, but nobody likes to think about, nobody wants to talk about. So if you don't mind, tell me what got you into this. How'd you get started doing this?

Yeah, well, it definitely wasn't part of my plans, I can tell you. It's a direct result of my husband's death, because— not immediately directly, of course. But when I published that book, people responded to a particular chapter. And it was a chapter that I had written about the questions that I'd asked him before he died. Now, the reason I'd asked him these particular questions was because we had received in, in what turned out to be just a few months before he died, an email from a friend saying, you must get him to answer these questions. And there was a long list of really practical things like, what kind of coffin do you want? How do you How does he want the body dressed? And what are your passwords? You know, really practical things like that. But not really nice to have to answer at the best of times, especially, and particularly not when you're faced with actually dying, because by this time we knew that, you know, there was no hope. And he was going to be dying within months, probably. And so we We, we put it off, and that's why she had to send the email 3 times. And I eventually said to him, okay, we need to do this now. We really need to, because otherwise she's going to be on our back. And here's the amazing thing. We sat up in bed together one Saturday morning with the laptop, and I asked him the list of questions, and he gave me his answers, and we discussed it, and we actually had a good time doing it. I mean, could you believe it? It was like a project that we were doing together, and we'd always been good at doing that. The project title was his end of life, not ideal, but actually the result of doing it was that we felt really close and connected and loving and warm. It was gorgeous, actually. So I had written about this, and people responded. And after about a week, when about 10 people had said, oh, I need to answer these questions too, I just thought Okay, all right then. And I put together a workshop. I had been used to doing that, so it was easy for me to do. And it sold out, and there was a long waiting list. And I thought, from that point, I thought, oh my goodness, well, I better, I better just follow this. It felt to me like life was telling me to do something around this. And so that's what happened. And that's how I got into Before I Go Solutions. And basically, that's what we do now, helping people to make good end-of-life plans and get those kinds of questions answered.

So I would have How long after your husband passed did you, did you write your book?

Well, that took me a wee while. I, I had already been writing a blog and writing for me was part of healing for me. And also I had been writing the blog while he had been ill. He died from stomach cancer. We had about a year together before he actually died. And so my readers were, nope, we're going through this journey with me. And I kind of knew that I would always have to write about this. But I trusted that I would know when the time was right. And it was about 2 years late on from him having actually died that I literally, just like in the novels, I woke up one morning and I just thought, "Oh my goodness, now's the time." And then it all just poured out. It was quite a painful process, I have to say. So I had to go back and look at my journals and see what I had been writing about at the time. But actually, you know, that was a good thing in a way, because it showed me that I had moved on, moved on. I hate that expression. We were talking about that earlier. But I had moved forward because I was no longer feeling the intensity of the feeling as I was in those early days. And the intensity of that feeling was right down there in my journals, you know, very strong feelings, as anybody who's gone through grief will know.

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting, as we're having— as you said that, I— something the day after my daughter passed away said to me, you need to start a blog. I'd been a blogger before that, not really regularly or anything. And I actually started a blog dedicated to her, like the day after she passed. And there's, I don't know what it was that something that said, I, that you need to write about this. But, you know, it was funny, as you said, when you said you looked back, you look back now and you moved. We talked about that phrase before we started recording, that phrase of moving on and moving forward. So what's the difference to you between moving on and moving forward?

Well, the thing about moving on, and people use that phrase quite a lot without really realizing it, is for me anyway, it meant that I would be leaving him behind. And the last thing I wanted to do was to leave him behind.

He'd—

it felt like he, he's— well, he had already left me in terms of not being in his body any longer, although there was a sense of him still around, obviously, but but I didn't want to move on in my physical human being life. I was not interested in doing that. And if I had thought about it in the way that you use that phrase, then I might— I would have understood it better, I think, in terms of moving forward with a person, regardless of whether they're in a body or not, is very different from moving on. Even if you talk about moving on with a person, it's just felt different to me.

Yeah, I have to say that phrase was really triggering for me, especially early in my grief when people would talk about moving on. And I would think to myself, I don't want to move on, you know, because that would be leaving my daughter in the past. So I thought about, as you talk about moving forward with that person still as part of our life. So you talk about the gifts in grief, your book is called Gifted by Grief. Now, people are gonna say, that's, that's an oxymoron. I can't be gifted by grief. So what do you mean by that phrase?

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to in the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. Feel. And that's what the Substack has become, a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there.

Yeah, well, first of all, let me tell you that if somebody had given me that book, a book without a title, you know, in the early, especially in the early days of grief, I would have just shouted at them, probably, because, you know, it's only— it's not a book to give to people immediately afterwards, or even some time on. But anyway, well, I discovered the main things that I discovered were the spiritual awakenings that I had, which I write about in the book. And that's the thing that I thought people, the readers would be most interested in. And I felt that, you know, we had been spiritual seekers, I would say, all our life. And I felt through the process of him dying and what happened for me afterwards that I stopped in a way becoming a spiritual seeker and became a spiritual finder. And, and that was a huge gift, a huge gift for me personally. But of course, the other gift has been what has emerged, which is what the work that I do now. And that, you know, it was 10 years ago now that Philip died, but, um, and so I'm not thinking about him still every day in the same way that I was for the first few years. But in those first few years, I got to talk about him all the time because I was setting up this business and I was going out there and I was networking and I was doing all sorts of talks online and offline, everything. And every time I got to tell the story, and it felt like he was still having an impact in the world. He'd been a psychotherapist, he really cared about making a difference to people. And he still was through me. And I— that felt really, really good to me. So that was another unexpected gift. And, and even though I still, of course, talk about the story now, but I feel like he— but I feel like I've taken on this project more as uh, mine, as opposed to doing it on behalf of him, which is what it felt like in the first few years. So yeah, interesting.

Yeah, it is interesting. And it reminds me, I just— something that came to me a little while ago. When we think about death, we think about death as the end. We think about as the end for that person that passes on, and as sometimes for us it can feel like an end too. It did for me when my daughter passed away. Um, but you know, it can also be a beginning, you know. And so this, this thing that you're doing now was, was birthed out of your husband's passing. So I like what you said though, you kind of shifted from this just being about him now to this also being about your legacy or what you're doing.

Yeah, it did. And actually that happened at a very precise moment, and it was about, um, I think it was, it was, it was in the summer of the first lockdown that we had. And I can remember, you know, because when that first lockdown happened and lots of people were scared and nobody really knew what was going to happen, I can remember thinking, goodness, I could be dead at the end of this summer, you know. And there's nothing like that to focus your mind about what you really want to be doing. And I really thought, um, do I— this business, it's a social enterprise in the UK, that's similar to a not-for-profit. We— I had to decide, I felt like I had to decide, was I going to take this forward myself as, as an entity and do it for my own reasons? Because by this time, of course, I built up quite a following. And we learned a lot, and we were applying a lot. And I was training people to be end-of-life plan facilitators. Because we discovered that despite people saying that they want to do this sort of thing, if people do say that, which they do, they don't usually do it. They only, they only do it with help. So I was— I, I do now train people to help others. But, um, I did have to make that decision, and that felt like Philip was somehow disentangling himself from the initial impulse. He was still there with me energetically, but behind me supporting me, as opposed to involved with me in it. Which is how it felt in the early days. I hope that's clear.

Yeah, it's clear. I think it's very interesting that, that you did make that shift. Uh, my daughter— for people that are listening, not watching on YouTube— my daughter is literally behind me, um, because she's still a big driving force, uh, for, for what I do. And, and so she'll always be the impetus of that. I, I still, I still feel her with me energetically, as you said. So I can definitely relate to that, and it makes a lot of sense to me. So, you know, this subject about end-of-life planning, I mean, you, you mentioned that 90% of people say it's essential, but only 14% of people get around to doing it. And you talked about you had to be prompted 3 times before you had this conversation with, with Philip. Um, why is it that people are so reluctant to talk about this?

Yeah, yes, well, I think there's several things, but mainly they boil down to fear. Uh, but the fear boils down to being afraid of the unknown. We don't— well, we think we don't know what's going to happen. And we don't know, I suppose, for sure until you're actually dead. And then, you know, it depends on your belief system, whether or not you think that people come back and tell you what it's about and all that sort of stuff. But it is. So there is— so it's the fear really, that is the main thing. Now that shows up as ignorance, really, I would say, about the process, fueled by the fact that over the past decades, the funeral industry and the medical profession have, if you like, taken over the process of dying. Now, that's sort of happened with the medical profession. That's happened because they've got better and better at keeping us alive for longer, which of course is arguably a good thing. But it has meant that families, whereas before they would have— it would have been common for families that somebody to die in the family, and then for the family together, and that person to be laid out and in the family home probably, and for there, there'll be an opportunity for people to pay respects. That hardly ever happens. Hardly ever happens. It depends on your culture, of course, but it's still much more common that people die in hospital and don't have that kind of— people don't see a dead body. So it's not unusual these days for people to get to the age of 50, or even older, and not ever having seen a dead body. Which of course means that it's like, we don't know what that is, you know, and that's a bit scary. And the other thing I think is that, and the funeral industry as well has, has helped with that, because we've grown up thinking that when somebody dies, we have to call the funeral home immediately, immediately. We have to call the doctor immediately. Well, first of all, just let me say you don't have to do anything immediately. If somebody dies at home, you can just wait and get used to this idea that somebody who was in their body one moment isn't in their body the next, because that's what it looks like. If you've never seen a dead body, that's what it looks like. Anyway, the other thing is I think that people are a bit superstitious and think that if they think about this sort of thing, it'll make it happen. And so that pushes it further away as well. So although it's the one thing that we all know is gonna happen, and statistics say that 100% of us are gonna die, which is one of the ones that I usually say, it doesn't seem to make much difference to the actual translation of preparation, which is totally mad when you think that we prepare well in advance, years sometimes, for weddings. We certainly plan in advance for having a birth, and— but we don't for death. We're expected to take care of this huge thing with just a few days' notice, often.

Yeah, I, I know for me, and of course my daughter was 15 and she passed suddenly, so there was a couple different things with that, but that, that feeling of walking into a funeral home and having no idea, literally no idea what you want to do, and they're throwing all these questions at you you know, and you've got to decide, you know, as you said, mundane things, how do we dress the body? Are we going to, are we going to cremate? Are we going to bury? What kind of a casket do you want? You know, all the— and there are a thousand questions that you wouldn't even think of. And when in a mind when you're in this brain fog, so that's why I wanted to reach out to you because I know what it's like to go through that. And it's, it's terrible. It just compounds the whole grief thing that you're going through.

It does, it does compound it. And, you know, your situation was absolutely horrific. And the last thing that you can ever imagine when a child dies, because that's not the way it's supposed to happen, especially as well if it's sudden, because a sudden death is different from a death that you know is happening. And yet, my personal experiences with a death that I knew was happening, and I was with Philip when he died, and yet, it was still— God, it was still a shock, you know. And I, you know, at that time, we had answered some questions, but I still didn't know know everything. So the thing that I think people completely underestimate is the totally debilitating effect that grief has on you. It just means that you can't think straight. And you might think you're thinking straight, but you probably aren't. And it also can affect you physically. And, for example, for me, I remember that I couldn't work for maybe the best part of 2 to 3 months. I'd been used to seeing like maybe 4 clients a day, something like that, as a, as a coach and therapist. And I went to seeing maybe 2 a week for quite a long time. So that has a big impact. And it was because I couldn't think straight. And also, if I did too much, I just got headaches which didn't go away with any pills. And the only resolution to that was lying down and maybe watching really ridiculous television, or I couldn't even really concentrate on reading a book. And I'd never had anything like that happen. And I knew about the effects of grief. I had, you know, I had studied them as part of my counseling work and all that sort of stuff. But when it happens to you, it's like, it just takes you over.

Yeah, you can study as much as you want. But until you actually go through it, you have— you really don't know. There's a, there's a pretty famous grief counselor that I know that was doing grief counseling before his son passed away. And he says that, you know, after— I didn't know what I was doing until after my son actually passed. And I know for me, you talked about like even watching— I love to watch TV. I didn't even turn the TV on for a couple of weeks. And I— it's really weird. I was like, I didn't even think about it.

Yeah.

Um, it's just— I don't— you're just like, you're just not functioning properly. So that's why the planning ahead is so important to have that done. So, so how do we begin to have that conversation conversation with somebody, um, to have that conversation about the thing nobody wants to talk about. I mean, just, just to say a little bit more before you answer the question, like, for myself, my wife and I, I, I didn't do a will for a long time. And finally, I think it was after my kids were born, I finally said, okay, this is something I have to do, you know, now I have to do it. But I was the same way, I wanted to put it off. So how do we, how do we have that conversation with someone?

Well, you first of all, if you have the idea that you want to have it, that's the important thing. And you do have to have a conversation nearly always, because it's difficult to make a plan for your end of life without having a conversation. So I will say there are 3 C's that you have to remember. The first one is you need to have courage. You need to have courage because as we know, most people don't talk about this. Therefore, somebody, i.e., you, is going to be the person who's going to have the courage to start a conversation. But I think it's important to recognize that and also to remember that when you're being courageous, you don't feel courageous. What you feel is usually apprehensive or a bit nervous or terrified or anything along those lines. And if you're feeling like that, then that— and you're acting anyway, then you're displaying courage. The second C though is You must have a context. This is really important. You can't just arrive to meet somebody or down at the breakfast table or whatever it is and say, "What would you like for your funeral?" or something like that. You can't do it. Well, you could, but I'll tell you what, you won't be received very well. So you need to have a context, but a context could be as simple as one of your listeners here saying, I was listening to this really interesting podcast the other day, From Grief to Growth. It was about blah, blah, blah. And, and it made me think, goodness, I've never had this conversation with anybody. I'm going to bring it up with a friend and find out what they would want to say as a funeral song. It doesn't really matter what specific question you're asking. What matters is that you're starting a conversation because you don't then know what's going to happen. And actually, people who have been willing to do this have been more often than not surprised at how open somebody else will be to talk about this sort of thing. Because secretly, I believe that people deep down are— nearly everybody has a story to tell about dying or death or grief or something. But because we don't create an atmosphere of being able to talk about these things easily, it's, it's not easy to talk about. So I think when the person has the courage and provides the context, then it's easier to do than not. And then the third C is what I call having a chat. Now, I call it a death chat in my mind, which sounds maybe a little bit facetious, but actually I call it that because usually people think, associate with death that it's got to be somber, funereal, dark, you know, it's something that we don't want to go towards. But actually, it doesn't have to be like that. It can be— it's not that you take it lightheartedly, but it can be treated lightly. So that means— that's why I'm emphasizing the chat bit, you know, you want to be having a light conversation in the theory of the subject. That you, me, we're going to die someday. It's a lot easier, I can tell you, to have it, quote, theoretically, than it is to have it when you're actually facing death.

Yeah.

So yeah. So, but if you remember the 3 C's and you get them, then, and especially context, then you'll be okay. Yeah.

Well, I think the context is a really good point because it is a subject that most people don't want to talk about. So bringing it up out of the blue over lunch is probably not a great idea, but finding a way to, to introduce that, that conversation is probably key to get someone, you know, to be receptive. So what actually is an end of life plan? I mean, if I have a will, what else do I need?

Okay, so most people know about wills, and they know about funeral plans. Those are the things that they've heard of. But those are only two things. So the will represents the legals. And these days, people really need to have powers of attorney in place as well, the power of attorney for healthcare and the power of attorney for financial matters. Those could be two separate people, but they are the people that you appoint legally to represent you if you can't speak for yourself. And the reason why these are more and more important these days is because people are living longer, much longer, but not necessarily in good enough health to be able to either speak for themselves or even want to take care of their finances. So that's the legal side of things. Then We have the funeral is the other thing that people know about, but it really helps to have thought about the organisation of the funeral and the details of that. And there's quite a lot of details to have thought those through, at least in theory beforehand, because of course you don't know when you're going to die, so you don't know that your choices would be the same now as they are then, say in 20 years' time, whatever it is. But we also don't know, you know, we could die this week. So I usually say to people, well, instead of trying to imagine ahead of a future when you're going to die, use the phrase, if I had died yesterday, what would I want to have already put in place? It's much easier to think about it like that. So those are two things that people know about. The things that people don't usually know about is the advanced care planning, i.e., facing up to the fact that most people are going to be needing extra care towards the end of their life in one way or another, and what that might look like, and what they would want ideally. And it can be as simple as a question, would you rather die in— at home, or in a hospital, or in a care home, or in hospice, or whatever? Just that. Statistics have shown, the research has shown, that if you have thought this through and written it down, for example, if you want to die at home, it's more likely to happen. Generally speaking, it's more likely to happen. So that's the advanced care planning. Then we have, yeah, oh yeah, this is a big one now these days, our digital life. You will live on, you will live on digitally, online, unless after you're dead, unless you take and make a decision about it now while you're alive and give authority to somebody to take care of your online profile. Once you have died. So for example, with social media, most of the social media accounts nowadays have a way for you to name somebody as a legacy contact. They call it different names for the different platforms, but that is something that you can put in place now. It's really simple and it makes it so much easier for that person afterwards to access your details and do what it is that you want. Because of course you will have told them what you want, hopefully. Because some people, you know, want to have their social media profile continue after they have died as a way to maybe be up their Facebook page, say, up as a memorial for them. Other people think that would be horrible. So that's the whole digital side of things. Then we have also the legacy side of things, i.e., how would you want to be remembered? You might choose to be remembered through your social media account. You might decide that actually you want to make a creation that is really important to your family to leave behind, some kind of heirloom. You might decide that you want to compile all your favourite recipes or something like that, so that that continues on down, down in the generations. There's all sorts of things that can be done there, but again, they have to be thought about beforehand, because otherwise your relatives will be saying things like, I wish I'd asked Nana or Grandma, or whatever it is, about whatever it is. You know, you want to avoid that if possible. The other thing is the household. Now, I call this the household headaches, because people often don't think about this. Of course, this covers your finances. It's a lot easier for your executor if your finances are at least listed, all your accounts are listed. But there's one thing about household that I discovered that people don't think about. And I'll tell you a little story about this to illustrate. It was about 3 weeks after Philip had died and I'd had a friend staying with me and I'd just taken her back to the airport and I came back home to the empty house. And of course that wasn't very nice to start with. But anyway, that evening, I wanted to watch the TV. And I flicked it on, but it didn't come up to the guide page that I was expecting it to. Obviously, she'd been watching the— I guess, I don't know. Now, normally, that wouldn't be an issue. But I was grieving. And I just was in floods of tears. I could not find my way to even get a program. I just couldn't do it. And all I could think about was, if only Philip was here, he would have done it for me. And that could have been taken care of by a little piece of paper or a note to me on a phone or whatever about what you do if the right play, the right page doesn't come up on the television or whatever it is. It doesn't really matter what it is. It's things like in couples particularly, there's usually one person who's responsible for one part of how the household runs. And somebody else is responsible for the other. And we don't know what the other one does. Of course we don't, because we're, we are in a couple and that's the way it works most efficiently. But it really helps to know things like, you know, how the heating works and all the stuff about the Wi-Fi and all that kind of stuff. Or at least to have it written down somewhere so that if you are left behind and you're on your own, you can find out easily. And then finally, there's this whole area of what is now called death cleaning. Which you could think of as decluttering towards the end of your life. But death cleaning is a phrase now, but that is really what it is. And that's basically looking at all your stuff and deciding what you're going to do with it beforehand, because somebody's going to have to deal with it. So if you look around now at your room and you see all the stuff that is there, and most people have quite a lot of it, what's going to happen to it? Because it will go out into landfill unless you make a decision about what you want to go where and even maybe start letting go of some of it.

Yeah, it's funny you bring that up because I just last week was starting to clean up my office a little bit. And I've been, I've been in this office, the room I'm in right now for 25 years. And I've never thrown anything out. So I started going through it and I'm like, wow, it's— it was like a time capsule going through all this stuff and just taking things, you know, buying. And I thought about my daughter. I'm like, you know, poor Kayla, if I weren't here, she had to go through all this stuff. I felt like I was actually doing a little bit of a service to her if, you know, if something happens to me, you know, anytime soon.

You are. That's exactly it. And that's why— and it is an act of service and it's an act of love as well. Absolutely an act of love. Now it's a selfless act as well, because if you you die, then, and she's going to be left behind, but not taking care of so much mess, you're not going to be there to be appreciated. But she will appreciate it for sure.

Well, and there's all the little things like, you know, my girls gave me so many things over the years. So I'm like, do I hold on to this? Because they mean a lot to me. So I, you know, I, those things I put in, I'm like, I want her to be able to find those. So I think, you know, there are a lot of things that we don't we don't think about, you know. And I think about death every day. So, you know, it's, it's part of, part of what I do. It's so— and it doesn't bother me. The thing about death, because you talked about earlier, we talked about the fear. I think people that— most of us try not to think about it at all, but people that think about it a little bit, they get very scared. But people, when we start to think about it a lot, the fear goes away.

Yes, isn't that amazing? I have found that as well. Now, I didn't set out with that intention, but I've discovered that So when people are willing to turn around and face their fear, and in the way that I do it, they're looking at it in a very practical lens. And often people don't want to do that because they think it'll be really emotional. But we've been surprised to discover that actually there's something about dealing with the practicalities that allows you to just do it. You don't necessarily get emotional at all, but going through the process lessens the fear. And we often have people coming out the other end of having done their end of life plans or done most of it, and they realize, oh my goodness, I'm no afraid. I mean, that's wonderful, isn't it?

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian and what he offers at www.grieftogrowth.com. Www.grief2growth.com, or text growth, G-R-O-W-T-H, to 31996. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grief2growth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth. G-R-O-W-T-H, to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief 2 Growth.

It is, and I, you know, it was my experience when I did finally get around to doing the will and the power of attorney and stuff, you know, once it was done, it was like I felt relieved, because I knew up until then I was just avoiding it. You know, I knew it was something I needed to do, and I was avoiding it. But it was done. It was in a box. And I can go back and revisit it every once in a while. But at least I know I've got it done.

Yeah, exactly. And relief, relief and peace of mind. I think those are the two things that people receive. And they don't realize how much of their energy has been taken up with this niggly little thought, oh my God, I should be doing this, you know, and it's been going on for years, probably is not unusual for that to go on for years.

So what do you say to people that say, oh, I don't really care what kind of funeral I have?

Yeah, that's quite a common one. Because of course, they're not going to be there, you know, so they don't care. But the thing is, what— this is why it's a selfless act to think about this beforehand. Remember what I said about people being, well, we discussed it, people being completely debilitated by grief. You're not thinking straight. If you can help in that process because you've made a decision beforehand about what your preference would be, and of course it needs to be a preference because there's no guarantee that the people coming after you would actually be able to do what you ask them to do, but But if you can guide them, then that means they have one less decision to make. And decision-making is one of the things that can easily go in the face of grief, because nothing else really matters in, in strong grief, because the only thing you care about is the person that— who's died. You want them not to have died. You don't care about anything else. So making decisions of any kind is just Well, anyway, to me it felt completely irrelevant and I wasn't interested, you know, and yet they have to be done. So that's why it's a good idea to do it.

Yeah, and, and I, I completely concur with you. It's like, it's not for you because, well, I believe you will be here, but most people believe they won't be here because I, what I've been told is that most people do end up attending their own funerals. So that when we're in spirit, we're there at that point, we suddenly care what people people are thinking and saying about us. So for my, my spiritual practice, I think it's important to plan for it. But also, again, it's another act of service to the people that they are going to have to make this— someone's gonna have to make that decision. I was so relieved my parents finally— because my parents are in their mid-80s, you know, approaching the mid-80s. And they finally said, yes, you know, we want to be cremated, and we want our bodies cremated. I'm like, It's good to know that, you know, and they don't— my mother doesn't want to have a big service. It's like, it's good to know that because, you know, at their age, they have so many friends, they have all these expectations. So now we can say, okay, this is what she wants.

Yeah. You know, that's another thing that I think people underestimate, or they perhaps don't know until it happens. And when my mom and dad died about 4 years ago, and they had been great students of mine, they had their end of life plan completed. I knew exactly where it was. It was wonderful. From that point of view. Now, the thing that I hadn't understood was the cut— the solace it gave me to carry out their wishes, knowing that they had known before they died that I was going to do that. That actually was quite something, because we discussed it all, and then it was written down. And so when it came to me actually executing all of that and arranging all the things that they wanted for the funeral, all the other bits and bobs I felt honored, you know, to be carrying out their wishes, knowing that they'd known I was going to do it. It was just, you know, it was, it was soothing to my sore heart, put it that way. Yeah.

Yeah, I completely understand. So how, how can your service, how can it help people decide what they're going to do with their body?

Yes, well, you— this kind of depends on your beliefs about how you want to— well, at the moment, usually people can be either buried or cremated, but there are lots of new initiatives happening. So I would say wherever you're listening from, you need to look about what's happening locally, because there is options for body composting, which is a different way of letting go of the body. It goes back into the earth as compost. There are— there is, um, what's it called, water cremation, resumation. That's what Archbishop Desmond Tutu asked for. So some of these, they're not common around the world at the moment, but they are— they will be becoming so. So there's quite a lot of different ways that you can get that you can take care of the body. But you're the one who has to—

you're—

I would say you're the one who has to research these and discover what would be the best for you. Because obviously some of them are more expensive than others. Some of them are not accessible to other people, you know, to certain areas. And I tell you what, it really helps if you have a belief system that says that you are more than a body. It's easier to deal with the fact that your body's going to die, but you, who you think you are, is going to continue on. I know not everybody thinks that, but it just makes it easier to deal with.

Um, so yeah, I just heard about water cremation just a couple of weeks ago. Um, I think that's relatively new. Um, that was— I thought that was an interesting thing. But, you know, you talked about that we're more than our bodies. I, I feel sorry, and I won't, I won't say who it is, but I know an older person, we were talking about what to do with their body, um, when, when they passed. And I say with their body because I don't identify the person with the body. I think that's very very important.

Yeah.

And they're like, well, I don't want to be cremated because I don't want to burn up. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, but we're going to put you in a box in the ground. So I, I didn't say that because I don't want to— it's like, let's not think about the fact that now you're going to be underground and you're going to be wet and, you know, cold and all that stuff. So we have to separate, you know, that, that we leave our bodies and it's just disposal of the body.

Yeah, no, I completely agree with you there. And, you know, I thought that in theory before Philip died, but I was with him when he actually died. And what happened was he was, he was lying there in the hospital bed. He was quite calm by this stage and looked peaceful and everything. He was, he had, he had, he was having a breath and then there was a very long time until there was another breath. And, you know, that this is all normal. What you don't know is that is when the last breath is going to be the last breath, because it's the last breath, and then, and then another one doesn't happen, and then it was the last breath, if you see what I mean, right? What happened in that moment of me realizing that, okay, that previous breath had been the last one, was that there was a shift happen. I don't know exactly what it was, but I I describe it as a slightly different color in his face. I don't think that was really the case. It was, it was very subtle, whatever it was. But there was no doubt about it. That body was still lying there on the bed. One moment before, it had been Philip lying there. The next moment, it was not Philip anymore. It was so strong that I had to look up to the ceiling to continue talking to him, which is what I was doing, because I couldn't look at this this empty bag is what it looked like. That had been him. And I, so I knew, previous to that, I knew I'd known about this, and I believed it. But now I'd had an experience of it. And that made a huge, huge difference to me. Because it was about 2 weeks later when I woke up one morning, and I thought, well, if that was an empty bag lying on the bed, then this, this body here, my body is a filled bag. What is it filled with? And so I went on a mission to find out, and that's what I wrote about in Gifted by Grief mostly. But, um, yeah, it really helps to be able to separate out who you think you are from the fact that you have a body, and that you're not— that you aren't a body, but you have a body.

Well, I think, uh, you just said it, you said it earlier also, you talked about experience, and it comes down to experience. We can know things, we can know things in a life but that experience— and most of us are not around bodies, you know, for a very long time. For me, the shift happened when I was very young. I couldn't stand going to funerals, so I didn't go to many. But when my grandmother passed, I was about 12, and I remember going to her funeral, and I could not look at bodies, but I made the mistake of walking up to the casket and looked in. And the thing that struck me was, that's not her. It's like you said, it's like, that's a shell. That's— I don't know, why is everybody looking at this? That's not her. And I still remember, this was like almost 50 years ago at this point. But I still remember that moment when I made that shift between, you know, people, we are not our bodies. And I think that's a very important thing if we're going to get past this, that we have to go through with all this. So when my daughter passed, you know, it was like, I was more concerned what other people thought about what we did with the body than— because I was like, Shana's— she's not there, she's somewhere else.

Yeah, yeah. And it does make it easier to deal with, definitely. There's no doubt about it. I mean, I know that there's a school of thought that says it's important to see the body, and that helps with the grieving process. And I'm sure that's true for some people. And I also know that there are people who like me, who— I wasn't interested in Philip's body after he had died. I just wasn't interested in it. It wasn't— so much wasn't him that I didn't want to know. So I didn't mind what happened to it. Now, I know that sounds a bit sacrilegious to some people, but that is just the way it was for me. So I know there's other people that feel like that. So, and that's one of the things about grief as well. I think it takes everybody in different ways, and we have to be, um, hugely wholehearted and kind and compassionate when people express themselves in all sorts of different ways from a grieving perspective. I mean, I was 54, right? You know, I felt like I was too young to be an old widow and too old to be a young one. And I thought, probably after about a year, I can't remember how long it was, but I, I thought, I can't imagine ever meeting anybody else that I would fall in love with and who would be so as wonderful as Philip. But I also can't imagine being 30 years on my own, you know. Anyway, life conspired to bring another partner into my life to whom I'm now married. Now the thing that I learned about him, he also had lost his wife. I met him about 6 months after his wife had died, and I was 6 months. Oh my God, that's so— I mean, you know, he's still really grieving. But he had managed his grief in a completely different way to me, completely different. And I was humbled because I realized that I had some judgments about how long it took to recover. You can't even really recover, you can't even use that word really. How long the journey could take before it was like, say, okay, you know, I don't know, go dating or whatever it was. And yeah, I was humbled about that, because he had managed it in a very different way for me. And he had managed it fine. But it was not the same as me. So I'm a bit more compassionate now. Yeah.

And that's the thing about what the— with the end of life planning we're talking about. And that's the thing about grief and everything else. Everybody has their own way of handling things. Everybody has their own preferences. They're going to— we have different, you said, spiritual beliefs. And it's very important that we— I think it can actually be a preparatory thing. Another benefit of this could be starting to think about the fact that we're not always going to be together. You know, we get married, we say those vows. And I said, everybody says till death do us part, but everybody, we forget about that part. The fact that the relationship is going to end one day physically, unless we both happen to die in a plane crash or something, one of us is going to be left without the other one.

Yeah, yeah. And that's if we're willing to face that ghastly thought from a practical point of view, then it becomes an act of love that you do for each other. And when I've worked with couples or the couples have taken our courses or whatever, that is one of the things that they discover, that actually the facing up to the fact from a practical point of view that one of them is going to be left with all these— this household, for example, or the finances or whatever it is, then there's a lot that can be done right now to help that transition be as smooth as it possibly can be. Because it doesn't necessarily lessen the grief that you're going to have, because, you know, the grief is there because the person isn't there. But But the fact that you don't have to then deal on top of that with all sorts of administrative hassles is a huge plus. And it's unfortunately something that people only usually find out about until it's too late, which of course is why I do the work that I do.

Yeah, well, I love the story you told about even turning on the television. You know, my wife and I were, you know, I'm older, I'm 60, I'll be 61 in a few weeks. But our daughter passing at 15 really brings everything into sharp relief. So we started realizing that, yeah, this could happen to any of us at any time. And so we haven't done a formal plan like you offer, which I'm going to do after this. I did sign up for your workshop, by the way, to be a facilitator. I was looking at your website. I was like, I want to know more about this. But we started the little things. I've got my passwords. I'll tell people this because they don't necessarily know where I live. My password for my computer I have written on a card right here on my desk because I know she's not going to know where to go find it. So I have a password program that I use. I'm like, all my passwords are in there and this is the password to the password program. And I put it on a card on my desk because I don't want her to have to go through that. And, and I, you know, we do talk a little bit about like, okay, what happens if like this is how you do basic maintenance on things, right? So you don't call someone every time. And those, those little things that I think some people think of as morbid, you know, talking about not being together, but it's just, it's just reality. And then we don't have— we're gonna have enough little triggers when that— when our spouse passes anyway, without having to go through those other things, right? So let's, let's try to lessen some of those, I guess, is the best way to put it.

Exactly. And that's lovely to hear that you two are taking care of each other in that way. Because that is actually what you're doing. You're taking care of each other when you're willing to face up to these things together. And so I would love to see more couples do that, um, because the one left behind is going to be hugely grateful, hugely grateful, because it makes life easier.

Absolutely.

So yeah, I, uh, you have so many resources to offer. I know you've written, um, a couple of books, you've got your website. So talk about some of the resources that people can, can find out, can get from you.

Sure. Well, we have a free quiz if you want to find out how prepared you are. It's just 10 yes or no questions, which is at beforeigouquiz.com. And that will give you an insight into some of the questions that are part of our workbook. We have a Before I Go workbook, which actually has about 150 questions, I think it is, but it is actually a workbook that's either a PDF or a print version. And these are all available on the website. We also have our end-of-life planning cards. Now, that was a new thing that I brought out last year. This is a different way of dealing with the questions. So there's about 100 cards. They each of them have an area that you have to answer a question about. And it's not like, it's not like playing a game, but it is like doing an activity to do with, okay, so let's see what is a priority. Let's see, you can do this on your own or you can do it with somebody or you can do it as part of a family. To use as a discussion point. And you know how it is when you get a pack of cards, you can just shuffle them and then you can see, you pick one and you see what it is. That's a really easy way to just be willing to, in bite-sized chunks, address some of the issues that come up about end-of-life planning. And then we have our courses as well. Of course, we have, we have an online course, self-study, we call it the Before I Go Method. That's my way of you helping to get your end of life plan done. If you do that, you'll get your end of life plan done. And for those people who are interested in helping other people, we now have a professional facilitators program, end of life plan facilitators program. That's what you're referring to, Brian, when you said you were signed up. There's an information session, a free information session that I do every month to let people know about that. Because, you know, that statistic right at the beginning when you introduced me with the 90%, 9-0, say that it's essential to do this work, but only 14, 1-4%, actually do it. There's a huge gap there, and that's where people need help. And, you know, I could have called our facilitators, we're training you to help people get it done, because that's really what it is. We're training people to help get these difficult things done. Because it's amazing, you'll know this as a life coach, it's amazing how many people do their quotes homework the night before they're going to have a session with you.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely true. Yeah, absolutely true. And that's what I love about, you know, what you're offering. You're offering different ways for people to do this because people might think, well, this is something I can do on my own. And but we don't— the thing is, we don't do it. And I think also having that framework, because you've brought up several questions today that we might not think about, you know. So it sounds like we— you can help walk us through, like, what are some of these things that you might not have thought about out. And there's, there's, there's a little day-to-day things that we, we take for granted. So, you know, one question I know people might ask is like, when's a good time to do this? At what age should I do this? What phase of my life? So how would you answer someone that asks that question?

Well, in an ideal world, it would be when you're 18, you come of age, you know. But in— but we're not in an ideal world, and most people at that age are not going to be thinking about this. So let's be realistic. Um, but I would say any time from sort of 50-ish onwards. If you're 50, you will have parents who are in maybe their 70s or 80s, and they will need to be doing it because by that stage, you, you know, the odds are— well, by that stage, you will have lived life longer than you have got to go. So, you know, it's coming towards you. Um, and I know some adult children find it easier to deal with this through helping their parents. And it can be the other way around as well, because parents sometimes want to talk about this, but they're afraid of telling their children, and the children are not very open either. So it really is a family thing, can be a family thing. So there is, you know, I've got my ideas about an ideal age, but I'd say that if you are, you know, 50 or over, then this is you need to have this on your priority list. It might stay there for a wee while if you don't get some help to do it. But at least if you get it done, it's a bit like you, Brian D Smith, because you've done yours, right? So now it's just a question of reviewing it every year, say, and a review can take 10 or 15 minutes or something, you know, while you see if anything has changed. But definitely, I would say definitely when you get married, when you have kids, really good idea to do that, especially if you haven't got a will. Oh my goodness. Anybody who's listening who's got children under age and you haven't got a will, you need to get one because you need to put in there who would be the guardian of your children if you weren't around. And I'm really sorry to say this, but you know, accidents do happen. So, so that's a really important time. But when you move countries is important as well. If you have a will in one country, it won't necessarily translate to the next country. Yeah. Or even the next state. Um, there's a long list of this. I've forgotten what they all are, but there's quite a few.

Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's funny because I had that question to ask you, but I would say it's never too soon. So especially if you, if you're, if you're married, um, if you have children, and that's what really prompted me to say I have to have a will, because before that I was like, okay, well, everything goes to my wife, so I'm like, I'm not going to do it. But once I had kids, it's like, you, we don't mind, I think about this, but guardianship. What's, where are you, you might think, well, I'm just gonna, my, all the kids, all the money's gonna go to my wife, or it's gonna go to my kids. Who's going to take care of your kids? Yeah, you know, so things of that nature. And I know it's, it's not something that people, you know, like to think about or talk about, but I'm hoping if someone's gotten to this point in our conversation, they understand this this could be a relief. This could be an act of service, an act of love. This is not necessarily the morbid thing that we think about. And you can avoid some of the things that you've had to go through, that I had to go through with my daughter. You know, because with my other daughter, you know, we don't talk, we don't dwell on it, because she's 25. But we at least have little conversations about like things like that, you know, what do you want done with your body? I have a funeral playlist. I I have like songs I want at my funeral. There's a song I love. And I'm like, I want you to play this at my funeral. It's called Funeral. Because I don't want it to be somber. And the thing is, if you don't tell people what you want, then you're going to likely get something that's going to— that no one's going to like. So I want people to have a celebration. So I want everyone to know that, that that's what I want.

Yeah. And again, just how important that is to know for the— for everybody who attends that event, whatever it is, to know that this is actually representative of you, because you were the one who said, I want this, that, and the next thing. That is, that's, it's really lovely when you're using that kind of event to help you cope with your grief.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I think, I, you know, it's funny, because we call it, I've been to a lot of services, we call them celebrations of life, but they're usually pretty somber, right?

Yeah.

And so I like to, I like to see people kind of break that. And really, it reflects— should reflect who you are. But, you know, those things like who's going to speak, you know, all those kind of things that we don't know. And we— and if we had to decide in the last moment, it would have been so nice not to have to decide that in the last minute.

Yeah, exactly. I couldn't agree more. So, you know, we're preaching to the converted here, Brian, aren't we?

Yeah, well, we're preaching to hopefully people that are listening that are saying, I put this off, You know, and I don't want to give people incentive to say, yeah, let's go ahead and just get this done. Let's get this behind us. You know, the thing is that we are— you cite the statistic I always, I always cite, I'm like, there's only one thing in life that's sure, the day that we're born, and that's that we're not— that there's going to be a day when we— I'll use the word die. There's going to be a day when our body dies. That's the only thing that's certain about life. And so why not make that the best it can be? Why not embrace that? And when you do this planning, it also helps you to realize that life is precious. And I think you can, you can, you can live from a place where you realize that I don't have an infinite amount of time here. So I need to take everything here, you know, as seriously as I can and do and get as much joy out of it as I can.

Oh, it's so important that, and it really hit me actually after Philip died, because because I, it just suddenly occurred to me, oh my God, this could happen to me too. And so then I became, it became really important to me that I found joy in what I was doing, even while I was grieving. And I just decided, right, if I'm not enjoying, I put everything through a filter, am I enjoying this? You know, I've just asked myself that all the time. And if I wasn't, I would just stop doing it. And I still am like that today, I know how precious it is, and it can go in an instant. And that means, um, it kind of propels you into life more and wanting to get as much out of it as you can possibly get, which of course involves giving quite a lot in order, you know, because there's the giving-receiving thing. So, um, yeah, it's this ironic thing, you know, we can't have birth without death, we can't have death without birth, they go together, and yet we spend a lot of time pretending that they don't. It's completely bonkers, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's a good place to kind of wrap things up because with that irony, because I've heard people say that people that have studied death, studied near-death experiences the way I have, etc., that, you know, people, again, people might think it's morbid, it actually gives you a new appreciation for the life that we have. And I think doing this planning, even just that little prompt to say, you know, this is going to happen one day. The Buddhists have a contemplation where they contemplate that one day this body will be, you know, this body will no longer function. It really sharpens your focus on life.

Yeah, absolutely. It, it really does. And so I advocate for that, for that reason alone, although we've discussed quite a lot of other good reasons too.

Yeah.

Well, Jane, let's, uh, review, uh, because people sometimes listen and don't see the show notes. So your books are Gifted by Grief: A True Story of Cancer, Loss, and Rebirth, And Before I Go: The Essential Guide to Creating a Good End-of-Life Plan. There is a free quiz available to find out how prepared you are. It's on beforeigouquiz.com. And your website is beforeigosolutions.com.

Yes, that's exactly right.

And Jane's name is Jane Duncan Rogers. I think those are— everybody can probably figure out how to spell that. So people can contact you through your website, I assume?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And also, I'm quite active on Facebook. That's my most favorite social media. So you can get ahold of me there as well.

Okay, cool. Jane, anything, anything you want to say before we wrap up today?

I just want to say thank you for giving me the opportunity to share this because, you know, this is part of my mission to have end of life plans become as commonplace as birth plans. And that means that I need to get out there and spread the word and, and people like you that can do that. So Thank you so much.

All right. It was great meeting you. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you. Okay.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and will come back for future episodes. Brian's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast, and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grief2growth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grief2growth. Patreon.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of Grief 2 Growth. For more about Brian and Grief 2 Growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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