The UNBELIEVABLE Beauty of Aging: Why Society is WRONG About Getting Older! EP 392

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey, welcome back to Grief to Growth, where we explore life's deepest questions: who we are, why we're here, and how we can find meaning in the journey, and also where we're going. So whether you're tuning in for the first time, or you've been with us for a while, I'm glad you're here. And today I'm honored to welcome David W. Berner. David is an acclaimed award-winning author whose work spans fiction, creative nonfiction, memoirs, short stories, and poetry. With a career decorated by prestigious awards like the Eric Hoffa Book Award and the New York City Big Book Award, David has made a significant impact in the literary world. And his latest book is Daylight Savings Time: Essays on Literature, Art, and the Power of Growing Older, and offers a contemplative and deeply personal exploration of the aging process. In this episode, we'll dive into why David felt compelled to write about growing older, a topic that's often approached with trepidation, but here it is embraced as a sense of, a source of power and wisdom. We'll discuss the role of art, literature, spirituality, and travel in aging, and why Daylight Savings Time speaks to readers of all ages, not just those in their later years. David's reflections are not just about the process of aging, but about finding joy, solace, and meaning in every stage of life. So join us as we explore these rich themes and more. And after the episode, I invite you to continue the conversation with me and other listeners in our community space at grief2growth.com/community where you can engage further with the ideas shared today. And with that, I want to welcome David W. Berner.

Brian, thank you. Appreciate it. So nice to be here. And nice to be on a— you sound like you've done radio before. Your voice is, you know, melodic.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I have to tell you, getting started, when your, your bio came across my email, I was like, I really am excited about having this guy on. Brian D Smith, we're all growing older, but I'm 63, you know, in those years where I'm contemplating retirement stuff. And I want to start by saying there's this almost shame about growing older. And it's funny because I will tell people sometimes I'm old and people will say to me, you're not old, you walk 6 miles a day. I'm like, both things can be true. Old people can do things. So have you found there's kind of like a stigma about growing older?

Well, that's a really good way to put it though, with, you know, you can do both. Yeah, there's certainly a stigma. Our culture is— we've all heard this a million times over, but it's a culture of youth. There's no question about that. I mean, we've seen that in the presidential campaign here in America. I mean, it's very much about that. And we, you know, our media, our culture, our society, our, you know, entertainment, there's so much that's geared that way. And, you know, I don't have an answer for that. I'm not a sociologist. I don't know why that is so, because in other cultures, in many cultures around the world, elders are sort of revered. And you wonder why in America that's a different thing. We kind of put our elders like, well, we're going to move them over here for a while because they're kind of messing with our vibe, you know. And, um, you know, even if you do that sort of metaphorically, you're— I think we are kind of doing that. So to answer your question, yeah, I do think there's a stigma. I mean, um, you know, when I play golf, I walk, and I, I love the game because it's a very mental game, and I like that part of it. But I, I would say 90% of the time I'm walking, and 18 holes of golf is about 6 miles. And I don't think anything of it. I mean, I'm tired, but I'm not debilitated. Right. Right. And when I tell other people who are roughly my age that I walk, some will say, yeah, me too. Or some will say, what are you, out of your mind? And I, and I say, have you tried it? Because I wonder if you've just sort of, if you're, if your process is, oh, I'm old now, so I need to take a cart. And not just about golf, but about anything. Oh, I'm old now. I need to do this, or I shouldn't do that because I'm old now, right? I shouldn't try to do 20 push-ups because, you know, I'm 65, right? So really, should I do that? And then you kind of just say, well, no, I can't do that because I'm 65. Well, the truth is you probably can, or at least you can get to it, right, if you work on it. So I think culturally we've been stigmatized. And I mean, we, as far as older people, whatever that means, because, you know, back in the turn of the century, the 1900 turn of the century, you know, old was 45, you know, and that is not the case now, you know. So due to a lot of reasons and mostly medical, but we just, and we know things, we know that smoking will kill you. And we know that, you know, if you eat McDonald's all day long, for the rest of your life, you're probably going to die young just because. Not to say that you can't have a cigarette or you can't have a cigar now and then, maybe. But if you're going to indulge, you're going to hurt yourself and you're going to— your lifetime is not going to go. It's not going to— your span is going to be cut. And we know that. So now we're older and older Americans have a lot of power these days politically, you know, even culturally. But I don't know if we use it., all that much as, as best we could. So yeah, there is the stigma and I think it's a matter of, of sort of looking at it differently. Um, not that I do it right all the time or not that, you know, I have all the answers, you know, my, my book Daylight Saving Time is not about, it's not a self-help book. It's a, it's sort of a, hey, this is what I'm thinking. You know, maybe you ought to think like this too, a little bit, or maybe you can take something from this and apply it to your world. And that's kind of how I wanted to approach it. I am not an expert on aging. I am not an expert on, you know, anti-aging. I'm just a person who is, you know, moving through the process just like everybody else. And here's what I've seen and here's what I've observed and here's what I'm experiencing. And maybe it can help us think about it differently and maybe, you know, get out of that stigma a little bit.

Yeah. Well, I, I agree with, with a lot of what you said. Um, you know, it's really interesting to me again, when we talk about, you know, being old and old is a relative term. Um, I will say to people sometimes, okay, well, people of, you know, generation ago, two generations ago died at 45. We are objectively, you know, old compared to them. Now people are actually also living longer. My parents are 88 and 86. And they're both still in, you know, in relatively good health. But when I, when I say that I'm old to people, it kind of freaks them out, you know, and the reason, one of the reasons is they're around my age and they don't want to admit that they're old. So if I say I'm old, then they have to admit that they're old.

Right. Yeah.

Yeah.

That's true. Um, and it is relative. I mean, my, uh, I had a grandfather who lived to be 91. Uh, my in-laws are both still alive. You know, 86 and 92, I think they are somewhere in there. You know, they're not infirm, you know, and they're not going to walk 6 miles on the golf course, but they, but they are, you know, they're pretty mobile. And both of their minds are still pretty sharp. You know, some of that's genetic, some of that's lifestyle, some of that's, you know, just pure determination. You know, like I'm going to do certain things to make that work. Like my, my, my father-in-law does puzzles all the time, and I think that's helped him stay sharp, you know? And I, I think that we have to look at even those little tiny things like that. But the idea is, you know, it's not about just living older, it's about living older Well, right. You know, it's about mentally and emotionally and physically and all that. And, you know, there are hiccups along the way for all of us. You know, we have arguments with the people we love. We have falling outs with people we love. We, we, you know, lose a job. We gain a job. We, uh, you know, you know, things that we want to do don't, don't transpire the way we want to. And, but that's It's going to sound terribly cliché, but the cliché, but that's part of the journey. I mean, that is, I mean, the ups and downs are part of the journey. The heartaches are part of the journey. The, the, the, the wonderful moments are part of a journey. And there's no reason to think about that differently when you're older. It's the same thing.

Yeah.

Circumstances might be different, but it's the same thing. And, uh, I really, through this book, through Daylight Saving Time, I really wanted to show that, you know, we are all hoping for that extra hour, you know, and that's kind of what I mean by daylight saving time. We're hoping for that extra time, right? Um, but what are you gonna do with it? Right. You know, are you just gonna watch another Netflix series or what are you gonna do? Yeah, which is okay, but you know, what are you gonna do with that, that time that you have left? Well, you know, what, how are you gonna process it? And I believe that you have to take some risks. And that's also part of the journey too. And those risks can be all kind of ways, but I think you've got to do that. You know, I just started after putting it off for a long time at the age of 67. I just started going to a trainer and I've been putting it off for a long time. And she kicks my butt, but I'm really happy that she's kicking my butt. You know, it's not that I'm super out of shape. I actually am fairly, you know, mobile and fairly agile for a 67-year-old. I'm not an— I wouldn't call myself an athlete, but I think I get around better than a lot of other 67-year-olds. But I still don't feel like I could— I still feel like I could be better. Yeah, yeah. But that's my journey. That doesn't mean everybody has to go get a trainer, you know, that's not what I'm saying, right? But find that thing that, that, you know, gives you a little bit of a boost, that gives you a little bit of a, you know, a moment of grace, uh, some something like that, um, that will kind of lift you over the, the stigma that you brought up before about, you know, oh well, I'm old now, I guess I can't do that anymore.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me, and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Time for a real quick break. Make sure you like and subscribe. Liking the video will show it to more people on YouTube. And subscribe, you will make sure you get access to all my great content in the future. And now back to the video. Yeah, well, you know, it's a really interesting point you bring up cuz I think you, as you mentioned, uh, doing puzzles, for example, my, my father does puzzles. I think he still does every single day. And he used to get 2 newspapers when they still had them, uh, every day and do, and do both of those puzzles. Um, my mother is still extremely active and I, you know, and it's funny cuz everybody is trying to tell her to slow down. And I was talking to her a little while ago and I said, I think this is what's keeping you young, is the fact that she still travels. She still does things that she probably shouldn't be doing, but I think it's better to, to do that, to push yourself than to just sit in a chair and say, well, I'm, I'm 88 now, I can't do anything.

And I also think that people who are, you know, whatever older is, don't realize the capacity they still have to do things, right? They've been programmed to think that, oh, I'm not supposed to be doing that. Well, the reality is, I mean, you see this kind of, you see these stories all the time, you know, the 90-year-old who runs the marathon. You, you see, you, yeah, they're the outliers. I get that. Mm-hmm. But that should tell you something, right? And, you know, I, I, I don't think you want to get into a boxing ring with a 25-year-old at 90. You know, that's probably not a good plan, but, you know, Shadowboxing at 90, sure. Maybe even, you know, getting in a ring with the right kind of rules and regulations with another 90-year-old isn't a bad idea either. I mean, I don't— why not? I mean, I don't understand why that is, or, you know, that kind of thing. I don't know if that's the greatest analogy in the world, but I, you know, I think that those kinds of things are still available to us if we wrap our arms around it and go, okay, what can I do with this? You know, what can I do? I mean, I didn't start writing seriously, writing. I mean, I was always in journalism, but I never, you know, it's funny, I didn't really think of that as like the writing, but I thought of writing was differently in my head. But so journalism, I was always kind of writing, but I didn't really think about writing seriously in books until I was in my 40s. And, you know, for some people that would have been like the time to start thinking about you know, the, this, you know, the second half of your life or even the second last third of your life. And I, you know, started a whole different, you know, vocation at that time. And I think a lot of people are still doing that. I'm not special with that. I think a lot of people are, you know, reevaluating much more than they used to. You know, the, the old days of being at the job for 50 years and getting the gold watch, those days are long gone.

Yeah.

And in a way it's kind of good because you can get very, very set in your ways and set in your thoughts and set in your beliefs about yourself and your family and your life if you're stuck like that. And I think that, I think, yeah, that's a good thing. It was nice to have pensions when there were pensions. You know, those kinds of things are probably not a bad thing to think about, but the reality is we set ourselves up to be, to be sort of, um, You know, walking down the road with the guardrails on, you know, just saying, well, this is what you do. I just keep doing this. I keep going to the mill and working every day because that's what you do, right? Um, I just want people to maybe just rethink that.

So, um, I know you've written about— speaking of writing, you've written about all different types of things, written fiction. Um, what inspired you to write on the subject of growing older?

Well, it's probably a number of things, but the, the, certainly the thing that kind of clicked it over was I had a mild heart attack in my 50s. Um, that was exactly the same age as my dad's heart attack when he had it, which is kind of freaky. Um, and, uh, my dad survived and, and he lived a pretty decent life for a lot of years after that. And hopefully I'm doing the same thing. Um, but you know, it, it, I have to say it didn't necessarily scare me. It just made me say, wow, this, yeah, I guess, I guess this is kind of like a finite thing, isn't it? I'm not going to be here forever for one reason or another. Funny, I had a conversation with my son last night too. He said he, he, he's a, he used to be a chef years ago, but he's that lifestyle is just too much when you got a daughter and kids and it's just too hard. But he, he, he still cooks and he still makes things. He was making, you know, 40 pounds of tomatoes to make all these different sauces. And his wife's Italian, so he, he wanted to make these sauces. And he goes, I want to make this my sauce. I want it to be the thing that my daughter grows up and goes, remember Dad's sauce? Here's the recipe. I'm going to make that tonight. He says, I want that to be sort of like, uh, her, her remembering me, you know, in a way. And I, I thought that was really an interesting thought. And I thought about the same thing when I was, when I had the heart attack. I started thinking about, well, what, what are they going to take with them of me? And not because I was egotistical about it, but they're going to take something because I was around in their life, you know. What is it? What's it going to be? And it made me start thinking about, okay, well, what are you going to do with the rest of that time? With them, with you, with the people you love, with your things that make you happy, the things that challenge you. What are you going to do? So the heart attack was some of it. There's no question about that. And I even opened the book up with that. With that story. Um, luckily it was mild. Luckily I had no damage. Luckily I came out of it pretty good. It was a few weeks afterward and I went on a 12-mile bike ride after that, and my doctor was mad. He said, really? And I'm like, well, I felt fine. He started laughing. He goes, well, you're lucky. He just thought that was pushing a little too early. It probably was. Um, You know, 12 miles was in my world of biking is kind of low. You know, 20 miles is probably, 25 is probably a good number for me these days. Mm-hmm. But to do 12, you know, a few weeks after the heart attack, he thought I was a little outta my mind, but I felt pretty, and I probably was, but I felt pretty good. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm glad I didn't keel over.

Mm-hmm.

But, uh, I was lucky enough to, to not have any damage. I, you know, it was a mild one. It was, I noticed something was off. And, but to have it on the same year as my father, same age as he was when he had his, was a little freaky. And I asked the doctor about that. And he said, you see, you know, genetics do play a huge part in this kind of thing. He says, you probably have a better diet than your dad did. And I said, yeah, my dad would sit down and eat a bag of Oreos on a Saturday night sometimes. You know, I don't do that. I said, but, you know, I'm not perfect, you know. But he says genetics are pretty, pretty strong. And he says this is probably part of that. And so here I am. But that, that kind of kicked my thinking about, okay, what are you going to do? What are you going to do with that rest of that time? What does that mean? I didn't really start to write that or seriously think about writing something about it till years later.

Mm-hmm.

But that was the thing that sort of made me start to process that, the idea of aging and, and what that really means.

Right.

That would be the thing.

Right. So I know your, your personal stories and your emotions are, are, are deeply woven into the book. Why did you feel, um, why, what prompted you to share those, those intimate parts of yourself?

You know, I teach personal storytelling, I teach memoir, and people always ask me, how can you be so open? I don't know how. It's just my nature, I guess. I don't know how to be any other way. I've never been a closed person. I don't want to say I'm the kind of guy who walks up to strangers and starts telling them my story. I'm not that guy. But, you know, I, we, we, again, terrible cliché, but it's true. We have so much more in common than we don't in the world between each other. And sometimes when you explain to people that this is what you're going through or what you're thinking or what you've dealt with, they'll go, oh yeah, me too. Let me tell you my story. And humans are storytellers. We've been doing this since caveman days, right? So that's, that's what I learned to be. Why didn't we even learn it? I think it was innate for me, and I, I don't know why that is. My dad told great jokes. My dad was a great joke teller, so he was really good at it. But, you know, sort of the old school jokes, you know, almost, you know, minor dad jokes, if you want to call them that.

Right.

He was good at it. He was really good at it. And my mother was a voracious reader. So I think maybe some of those things kind of came together. In my genetics. I remember when I was a young man, 18, 19, I was in college and I— all I wanted to do was be on the radio and play, you know, Led Zeppelin all day long. I had hair at the time. I had long hair at the time. I was that guy, right? And I really wanted to do— that's what I wanted to do with my life. I was— that's, you know, no one else in my— in my— of my forebears had been to college before. I had a lot of people in my family didn't even finish high school. So, you know, I was the guy, I was the outlier, and I, that's what I wanted to do. I didn't know any better. You know, I didn't know to be a lawyer or a doctor or any of that stuff that wasn't in my world. You know, I came from a working-class family, which I've learned to embrace, and I write about that in the book too. And I started thinking about how was I going to do that, you know, and why do I want to do that? And the very first job I got in radio was at a country music station. At the time, country music was the Urban Cowboy days, you know, it was like huge. But I wasn't— it wasn't my thing. I learned to like some of it, and I've learned to like some of it now, even though the commercialized country I don't really like, but the sort of alternative country I do. But I thought, okay, I'm going to be on the radio and I'm going to play music and that's my thing. And I played music and I was a guitarist and a piano player and I wasn't great, but I was good enough to play in a band, you know, in the summers at bars and stuff. So I, you know, I had this thing about music. And the very first job I got out of college in radio was not music, it was news. Hmm. And I learned through that process of those jobs that I— it really wasn't about the music, it was about the stories. I was a storyteller. The news, the stories in music, you know, the story, especially like, you know, the stories that came out of people like Bob Dylan who were basic storytellers. Those were magnificent to me. And I started to realize, well, that's what I am. I, you know, and I became a reporter and I told stories. In fact, when I was a news director for a long time, I used to tell my reporters, small group of guys and women before we'd have our editorial meeting or after the editorial meeting, I would just say, go tell me good stories. Just because I thought that was the essence of it anyway. Just tell me a good story. Um, and I learned in time that that's what I, that's what I was. Uh, and, but it took me to my forties to really say, oh, well maybe I should focus on some books, you know, maybe I Maybe I got something there that I could do.

Mm-hmm.

So to answer your question, you know, I think I always was a sort of closeted storyteller that wanted to tell stories, and it was easy to tell stories about yourself because you already have that information, right? You don't have to go research it. You already got it, right? So I started to do that. My very first book was a memoir. It was about the time that I spent teaching in an underprivileged school. And, um, it was, the book was called Accidental Lessons, is called Accidental Lessons. And the reason it's called that is because the kids stopped me. I mean, they really did. I walked out of there going, holy Moses, as troubled as some of these kids are and as difficult as some of their lives are, they're teaching me. Mm-hmm. Um, and I, that year was an awakening for me. Um,, and I started to realize too that if I tell that story, maybe other people will open up to the possibilities of listening to others about where they fit into their world and how they fit into the world like you do, you know, and it may be different than yours, but we do share a lot. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, to answer your question, I think it came innately, but I didn't really it didn't crystallize to me like, oh, that's it, until time passed. Yeah. Yeah.

So, um, since the book's come out, have you gotten a lot of— or have you gotten people going, well, me too, you know?

Because yeah, I, I have. I mean, I, um, I've noticed that in some reader reviews, and I've noticed that with a couple of emails that, you know, relate to that. Um, yeah, I think it is a me too. And that was my goal. You know, I didn't want it to be a, you know, as they say in my world, a navel gazer. I didn't want it to be like, oh, look at me over here, I'm looking at myself and it's so cool and I'm so cool. That I didn't want it to be that. And, um, in fact, good memoir shouldn't be that. It should be about the human condition, the shared human condition. And, uh, you know, I always teach my classes when I say, I'll say when I say the word mother, all of you have some visceral reaction. Good, bad, ugly, funny, humorous, sad, whatever it is, you have some visceral reaction. The reason is because we all share it somehow. Even if we didn't even know our mother, we, our biological mother, we have some visceral reaction to that word. That's the shared human condition. So when I write about personal stories, my own, I try to be sure that I'm not turning it into holding a mirror up to myself. Sometimes that's a tricky job, I'll have to be honest, but I do think that that's important to do that because that's the way you connect with readers. That's the way you connect. I mean, that's why memoir works is if you find that that ground in the, in your stories that is similar, that is, um, alike, you share.

Yeah, I, I completely agree. I found that, um, when you do— when I read a memoir, other people read memoirs— we're not reading just about the person's experience that, um, that they had, but it's, it's like, how does it relate to something that I've had? Even though they're not exactly the same circumstance, we're looking for ourself in that, in that other person.

Yeah, I, I think we, when we write, when memoir is done well, it casts a shadow, and that shadow kind of over— comes over us, comes over the reader.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, uh, you know, that, that's where we— that's where the connection is made. That's when, you know, if you— if, if someone reads a memoir and doesn't know why it's doesn't clearly know in their heads why it's making a visceral reaction for them. Well, the likelihood is that you're sharing some human condition experience. You don't even realize sometimes that, why did my heart flutter when he told me that story? Or, well, that's because I had this happen and it's kind of similar, or it has the same sort of, you know, DNA in it somehow, right? You know, yeah.

So we've already touched on Daylight Saving Time is not— it's not a guide to aging, it's not a tip, it's not a how-to book, you know, it's really more, I guess, reflections. So what did you discover about joy, solace, and finding meaning in, in later years of life?

Well, uh, well, that's a really good question. Um, well, joy is, to me, joy is, uh, it's kind of a, the kind of thing that can't be defined because it's different for everybody else. Um, but you know, I get joy outta just looking at my granddaughter or I get joy outta taking a walk in the woods or, you know, I get joy watching a good football game. I mean, you know, there's all kind of ways to to get joy. And that's a little, maybe a little different, but somewhat overlapping to some of us. There are certain things that all of us enjoy, you know? So the joy part, I think, is what I learned from that is that it's out there every day. It's there every day. We just have to be cognizant of it, sort of, I don't want to say looking for it necessarily, because I think that could be a problem. But be aware that it's there and you just have to sort of embrace it. You know, solace is another thing for me. There's a difference between being alone and being lonely, you know, and lonely is a lack of connection, a lack of meaning. And being alone is, can be a great thing. It can, you know, if you learn how to be alone well, you're probably got a pretty healthy mind. Um, and you know, for me, solace is a wonderful thing. I, I, there are times I really like to be alone. Uh, and it's not about being lonely. It's not about being a recluse. It's sort of about just taking stock of my own stuff. Um, and you know, I love that part, uh, of it. And I do talk about that a lot in the book. I talk about how that is an important thing. But it's also, you know, of those things you talked about, there's also another thing that is sort of like that. And there are sort of threads of this in the book, is that understanding where we come from, you know, either, you know, family or, you know, the, the, the places where we grew up or we, you know, came of age. Those spaces in time all inform us and they all shape us. We can't help it. Some of us kind of reject it, you know, like, oh, I was born here and I hate that town now and I don't want to have anything to do with it. Well, it's okay. I guess you can have that feeling, but somewhere along the line, that town or that thing or that neighborhood shaped you. And it, it, it shaped you good, bad, or ugly, but it shaped you. And finding how that fits into who you are, I think is really, really interesting. It took me a long time. I never— I grew up in Pittsburgh. I think I mentioned that. And when I was there in my '60s and early '70s into the mid-'80s, you know, it was a transforming town. It was steelworkers, working class guy with the lunch bucket going to work. '60s, in the '60s, '70s, the steel mills started to close. It became a completely different town. We had 20% unemployment. It was bad. And then in the '80s, it started to transform itself. It became a medical hub. It became a, later on it became a technical hub. Google tested its first autonomous car., um, uh, in Pittsburgh. Um, so it became something different. Uh, it still hangs on to that legacy, but what Pittsburgh has done really well, the legacy of the steel mills, is that it's embraced the legacy. It's what we were back in the day that made us who we are today. And I think that's true for all of us. It's, you know, everywhere we've been, everything we've experienced, every town we've lived in, every the apartment we rented, somehow that's informed us. And you may not have liked it all, but to understand that that is part of you and to see how it fits into what you are, I think helps inform how you move forward. And I think that, you know, I talk a lot about that in the book about family history and where my family came from. And, and where I, um, how I started to realize that that was a good thing to be. You know, there was a time when I was shunning the working class world. I know I want to be— I am Kent. I'm no— but I look back and now I'm like, man, that was, that was pretty damn cool. I had that experience. Yeah, I feel very, very, very happy about that. I embrace that now. I love it. So maybe with that age too comes a little wisdom, you know, so.

Right.

Yeah.

So speaking of that, so have you found it easier to find joy and solace and meaning and all those things as you get older?

Easier is a good word, a good interesting word, because I know, I don't know if it's necessarily easier. But I think I'm quicker to recognize it, and I'm quicker to embrace it. I'm quicker to say, "Oh man, take this moment and take this in." I'm quicker to do that than I used to be. When you're young, you always want to, "Okay, what's the next thing? What's the most— what's the next exciting thing? What's the next experience I want to have? What's the next thing?" I think when you start to get older, you start to say, you know what, let's take this in a minute. You know, let's in a way, you know, physically slow down, but also sort of mentally slow down a little bit and let it seep in. Mm-hmm. You know, I can, I can make the connection to my son's sauce. You know, the sauce is going to be good because it sat on the stove for a day and a half, you know, in a slow, slow burn. Right. I, I think that's okay for us too. As we get older, we start to slow down. You're like, you know what, it's going to be better if I just take my time here and take it in and accept it and realize it. And I think we also understand ourselves better when we do that, you know. Even if we mess up, um, and we do something wrong or do something we didn't like or handled a particular moment not very well, if you, if you step back, really feel what that felt like for whatever you did. Really, I mean, really let it feel. Don't fight it. Sometimes that's really painful. But if you do that, I think you can be better the next time. But if you brush it off and move on and say, ah, well, that was just a thing, you know, I didn't really mean that, I'm moving on. I don't think you allow your time, allow the time to understand it. Sometimes that's really hard, but I think that that's an important process in aging. And I think it kind of comes naturally to all of us. I think if you asked anybody who's your age or my age, that they would say, yeah, I slow down and take it in a little more.

I think it can. Um, well, for me, I, I would say, yeah, I do find it easier to find all those things we talked about— joy and peace and meaning— the older I get, because of the wisdom, as you mentioned, and the perspective that we get with age. Um, when I was young and something happened that set me back, I thought it was the end of the world, you know. It's like, and you don't, you don't see, you don't get to see the long arc. You don't get to see how things play out. And once you've seen several things play out that you thought were terrible and you realize they turned out okay, or not only that, they were actually beneficial. Just for myself, I find that that's a perspective that I really enjoy about being older.

Yeah, that's a really good point. I do think, you know, you don't see the long arc. And also, when you're younger, whatever that means, whatever age that means, we all think we're immortal too. You know, we all go, "Well, I didn't get it right this time. I'll get it right tomorrow." But when you start to get older, you're like, well, you know, I may not have tomorrow. Yeah. And I don't mean that in a sort of dark way. It's just reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, tomorrow to fix this or to make this right or to do it better. So, um, I'm gonna take it in, I'm gonna think about it, I'm gonna accept how I feel, and I'm gonna go to the next thing.

Yeah. Well, I, I know I, I love the Olympics. I mean, and I've been watching the Olympics since I was— I remember the first one I remember was in 1960. 72, so over 50 years at this point. But when the Olympics were over this summer, I'm like, wow, the next one, if I'm here, I'll be 67. You know, I don't, I don't have an infinite number of those in front of me anymore. So I'm looking at it now like, you know, enjoy it, enjoy this one, because I don't take for granted that, you know, 4 years or 8 years are going to be, be around for the next ones.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons I took a trip to, uh, to Ireland and England and Wales with my wife and kind of, I don't want to say talked her into it, but it definitely was my sort of like thing. She's a lot less interested in sort of lineage than I am. I became more interested when I got older, but I was always, you know, I remember being in my 30s and my mother talking about certain things and I had an interest. I just didn't delve into it. So we took that trip and it was really, it was like you say, it was a thing. Well, if I'm going to do this, let's, let's go do it now, right? Because I don't know if I'm going to be around or I'm going to be, you know, physically or mentally well enough, right, 10 years from now to take on this journey. So I'm really glad I did it.

Yeah. Now I know, um, you say the book is not just for people that are going through the aging process. So what can people who are not going through the aging process— why would, why would they want to read it?

Well, uh, first of all, I think everybody's going through the aging process.

That's absolutely true.

You're going to be 15 someday, right?

It's absolutely true.

Yeah. So I, uh, not that to say that this book is for 12-year-olds. I don't know if it would be an interesting enough read for a 12 or 15-year-old, but I think you're 25, uh, I don't, I don't see anything there that it doesn't say something about, you know, moving through your 20s and going into your 30s, you know. Yeah, I talk about different things and different eras, but I think those, you know, I don't think it's necessarily a lesson, but I think those observations are true for anybody about moving through the process. Yeah, I think it rings truer for people who are 50 and older because, you know, it's almost like You know, when you and I of our age mention a television show, we all connected that television show that was back in the '70s, and somebody who's 35 goes, I don't even know what the '70s are. Um, you know, uh, there's a, there's a, there's this connection that we all have, right? So I think somebody, uh, who, there might be some things in the book that someone might go, well, what does he What's he talking about? You know, there might be a few things in there, but I do still think they can get, they can see the process and maybe, maybe in a weird sort of way, the book opens the mind up a little bit for that 30-year-old to go, oh geez, when I'm 50, maybe I had to think about this kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So I think there's some, you know, I'm not trying to give them a great marketing plan here that the book's for everybody, you know, that's not necessarily what I'm saying, but, um, But I, because, you know, I, you know, some people may not be interested, but, but I do think that there's, there's, there are threads in there that no matter your age, I think you can get something from it.

Yeah.

See your life in it. I think so.

Well, you know, it's funny, let's talk about the aging process. I have a daughter who's 27, she'll be 28, you know, very soon. And when she was younger, she would talk about old people, old people, this old people that, you know, she didn't like being around old. And I said, You know, you're going to be there one day too. And when she was, you know, a teenager, 12, 13, 14, she just couldn't even see it. But now that she's 27, I hear her saying things like, oh yeah, we went to the bar and there were so many kids there. They all look so young. And, you know, she's, she's very, very thin. And she's like, you know, I'm concerned about putting on weight. And I just kind of, I just sit back and grin. Um, because again, she's going through that aging process in her little mini way, right? She's 28.

Yeah.

But she's starting to understand that I'm not always going to be the age I am now.

Yeah.

So I think that's, that's really cool. And she's, she's very mature and she's, you know, maturing very quickly. But as you were talking about that, and we talked earlier about the wisdom of, of people who are older, my grandmother lived with us for about 13 years from the time I was 8 until she passed, and I was in my early 20s. And I remembered even to this day, even though this was over 50 years ago, sitting at the kitchen table with her and some of the wisdom that, that she gave me, which I didn't appreciate at the time, but I still quote her today because, um, it was just— it was brilliant. So I think a book like this for people that can grasp it at their early age can give them a big leg up.

Yeah. And I think you have to be willing to grasp it too. You know, my, my, I have two sons. My, um, my younger son is the one who lives in the area and, uh, you know, he's 31 and he'll say things every once in a while like, well, that's what you said. You said that. And I'm like, I did? Like, yeah. So it's amazing how much impression you've placed on people, you know, you're, you're the people that you've been around with a long time.

Sure.

You don't realize that, you know, you don't— you think you are, you hope you are maybe, and all the good things, not the bad things, right? But, um, but you know, he'll say, he'll even say things like, you know why I like Creedence Clearwater Revival, don't you? Because of you.

Yeah.

You know, and I'm like, because you would have never known anything about that band if it wasn't for me, right? So, um, and so he said that that's made an influence on me about what I like, you know, what, what kind of music I process, um, you know, and that's a, you know, kind of an odd way to, to connect with that, but I think that's true. That, but, but people don't begin to see that until they start to get older and they, something comes back to them that they experienced from some elder somewhere. And they're like, uh, wow, wait a minute. Didn't grandpa do that? You know, or whatever. But you don't think about that when you're 20. You know, I just, you're so self-involved when you're 20. There's no way you're thinking about that. Only the very, very aware person is going to pick up on stuff like that when they're 20. Yeah.

Yeah, well, I, again, I think the book is for those people that, you know, and, and it depends on what age you get it. I think that's, that's what it kind of comes down to, right? It could come earlier, but for some people it doesn't come till they're later, and some people it never comes at all. So we're, we're all different in terms of, of our awareness. I want to ask you about the subtitle of your book, which I think is really interesting: Essays on Literature, Art, and the Power of Growing Older. So how did you choose a subtitle, and how does that reflected in the book.

Yeah, I wrestled with the word power a lot because, and I'll tell you why, because it started to feel like, okay, that could be very self-helpy. And, and I played around with some other words, but I think what it came down to for me, the power of growing older, is that there is power in growing older if you accept it as power. If you say, I can use this. This is fuel, right? I'm more wise, I'm more worldly, I'm more aware. I've gone, I've had the ups and downs, I've had the things that I've screwed up and the things that I've done well. I've got some toolboxes here now, and that's power. So, you know, my publisher even said, no, I have no problem. That's what we're going to use that. I don't want you to change it. So yeah, there's a lot in the book about, um, about that toolbox. There's a lot in that book about how music and art and literature shape us, even if it's subtle. Um, and, uh, you know, for me it was more of the subtle, but, um, you know, we, we have, uh, The human condition allows us to enjoy art and process art in whatever form it might be. Um, and that is uniquely human, right? I mean, dogs aren't going around looking at Picassos, you know, not the same way we are, right?

Right.

Um, so, uh, funny though, dogs do react to music. Um, that's interesting. But, um, that's where the title came from. That's why the, the power of growing old was the thing that I wrestled with. Um, but I do think that that's, uh, that makes a lot more sense now to me. I really wasn't sure about it at the beginning, you know. Um, I was— I just didn't want it to sound like a self-help book because I didn't want to imply that it was, then have people read it and go, oh, well, this isn't what I thought it was. Actually, I did have one reader review somewhere in the, on the online, you know, platforms. Someone said, well, this book is not what I thought it was going to be, but it was, I still liked it.

Okay.

I thought to myself, well, that's probably what she thought. She probably thought this was going to be, you know, the step-by-step process of how you make aging a better experience. And I'm sure those, there's some things in there you can use. But that's not what it was meant to be.

Yeah, well, it's interesting, as you talked about the word power, I thought, okay, well, there's advantages and disadvantages to every phase of life. Um, when we're— when you're younger, we talked about this physically, we can do things that we can't do anymore. I, I never liked running anyway, but now I can't run, so, you know, it's not something I can do anymore. I used to love to play volleyball. I don't play volleyball anymore. But I'm a pretty good pickleball player. Um, so, you know, there— and I, and again, I have this perspective on life, and I, I watch, you know, younger people going through things, and I, I sit back and I kind of smile because I know the thing that's like a really, really big deal for them right now, you know, I, I didn't get this promotion, or it's going to be, it's going to be delayed now for like a whole month, you know, it's like my boss screwed this up and it's going to be a month it's going to be a month before I get my promotion. And I'm like, okay, okay, that, that, that perception of a month changes when you're 63 as opposed to when you're 30.

Yeah, that's absolutely true.

Yeah. So there, there is, there is power in— I know I wouldn't shy away from saying that. It doesn't mean it's, it's better or it's worse. Um, we— and but the one thing is better is I think we have that perspective to choose, like, okay, I understand that I do have an advantage here with that, uh, I wouldn't have understood when I was younger.

Right, right.

So we talked about art. Oh, go ahead.

No, I was gonna say that only comes with aging. I know it sounds like cliché, but you only get that when you start to get older. I mean, I just don't— there are very few people who are younger who are that, that wise about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know for me, you know, for me it definitely came with age. It's— and I'm still, I'm still learning and learning how to be gratitude, you know, gratitude is something when I was in my 20s and 30s, yeah, don't even talk to me about that.

No, exactly.

But, you know, now it's like, oh, okay, I can get out of bed, right? My, my knees are okay, I can still walk 6 miles a day. That I'm grateful for that, whereas I would have taken that for granted when I was in my, my 20s, right?

Yep. Yeah, so true.

We talked about art and literature and stuff. How does spirituality play into this, if at all?

It does. There's a thread of spirituality through the book and, you know, that may, you know, some people may go, oh really, spirituality again, great. And other people might say, may embrace it. But the way I approach it is that I have always been a searcher. That's why I like to describe myself. I don't know what's out there. I just know that there's something. I don't know what that is. I just know that there's something bigger than me. I don't know what that means. I don't claim to know what it means. You know, I grew up a Catholic, um, you know, did the whole, you know, uh, catechism classes, all the good stuff that you do. Um, but I rejected it when I got into college. You know, it was the early '70s and If you were 18, you were rejecting a lot. And, you know, it didn't fit well into my world and it still didn't. I, I tried to go back to more organized religion later in my life. It never— sometimes it felt right, sometimes it didn't. Then I started to think about, you know, Buddhist philosophies. I started thinking about, you know, Native American philosophy. And all of that informs me somehow. But I have determined that at this point I am nothing more than a searcher. That's all I do. I don't have an answer. I don't have an idea. I don't have a dogma. I don't have a core belief that guides me. But I do think that there are pieces of things out there. Um, and many, it's funny though, many of the spiritual beliefs and religious beliefs have a lot of overlap. That we tend to forget. We tend to think of them as being siloed, and they're really not. There's a lot of this. And, um, and if we can find that little bit of overlap and go, oh, okay, that everybody thinks that, like, you know, do unto others as you would, you know, have them do unto you. I mean, that's true in every religion out there, right, in some phase, right? So, um, I think that there's a thread that I sort of ride, but in the book, I kind of delve into that a little bit about what that means and what it means to just believe in something bigger than you. It's hard not to think, especially when you're younger, it's hard not to think of yourself as the center of the universe. You know, and the reality is you are far from that. Um, it doesn't mean your life doesn't matter. It doesn't mean your life can't influence or, or make good or whatever, but you are not the center of the universe. Um, and I think when you start to know that and realize that, the, the spiritual part of your life becomes a little more easy to understand. Um, and if you're not so hardwired or in the cement about a particular dogma, I, I think you also can be more accepting to other people's beliefs. Mm-hmm. You know, if you're hardwired and your feet are in the cement on something, and we see this, you know, right? Then, I mean, that's what wars are about for most part.

Right.

That if you can stop doing that and believe that everybody's on their own journey and that everybody is in some aspect a seeker and a searcher, I think we'd all be better off. Not easy to do.

Yeah. Yeah.

Not easy to do.

Well, you know, it's interesting because, and I know the book is not prescriptive, We're not telling people how to do things. So I know you're very, very clear about, about that. But I was curious about your own experience. Uh, with my experience, you know, I, I deal a lot with, with death. I deal with people who have, you know, I work with people who have lost people. I'm very much into spirituality and afterlife and all that stuff. That is one of the things that brings me the greatest peace as I'm— as, as we age. And this is, I think, one of the reasons why we don't revere aging in our society is because we're scared that we're going to die. And the older that we get, the more likely that is to happen. So I think that's— I think it's one of the reasons why we have all the issues we have with aging, why we want to hide old people away and not look at them, because it's like, you know, you're, you're headed to where I don't want to go.

It's a reminder, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point.

Yeah.

And if you do believe in something afterlife, And a lot of people don't even think of it as something afterlife. They just think it's a continuum somehow, right? It's a continuum. Uh, it's just in a different form. And that might be true, but, but, but there's also a part of me that's like, nah, when we die, we're dust. We go to the earth. That's it. It's over. Done. You know, there's a part of me that believes that too. Uh, I waver, you know, I waver all the time. Um, I don't think that makes me any better or different or worse or anything else than anybody else. I just tend to think that, I guess my core belief is we don't really know. We don't have a clue. I remember my mother saying to my grandmother, like your life, my grandmother lived with us for a while when I was younger. And I remember my mother saying to, and that doesn't happen much anymore, by the way. And I think that's also an interesting thing about aging. You know, back in the '40s and '50s, that was a normal thing, right? Your grandparents lived with you for a while. But I, I, um, I remember my mother saying, my grandmother saying to my mother, if there is an afterlife, I'll let you know. Okay. Um, and the interesting part of that is, and I don't remember if I wrote this in Daylight Saving Time or another book, frankly, But there was a very strange incident that happened. When my grandmother died, she died upstairs in the bedroom and my mother didn't know she had passed. She passed during the night. And a couple of days after the funeral, the neighbor next door, now this is someone who's not even connected to our family. And it was kind of a neighbor that, you know, you'd say hi to, but you weren't really friendly with. The neighbor said, hey, I'm sorry about your mother. And, you know, I waited a while, but I wanted to tell you something. She said, yeah, sure. She said, you know, I was at my kitchen sink on Sunday morning early and I was doing dishes. And from my kitchen sink, I could see out the back window. And she says, I saw your mother walking through the backyards. And I said, she hasn't been well and she's old. What is she doing back there? And she watched her and then she kind of like disappeared into the, you know, the kind of a wooded area that we lived in. And she didn't think anything of it. An hour later, the ambulance shows up at the house.

Wow.

Coroner's office showed up at the house. And she said, I didn't want to tell you until some time had passed, but she said, I just thought that was really odd. And she says, did your mother take a walk that morning? And my mother said, my mother was never out of bed.

Right.

And she said, are you sure that was, you thought that was my mother? I said, I know what your mother looks like. That was her.

Right.

So my mother started thinking, well, that was the sign then.

Right. Yeah.

That was the sign. Thumbs up.

Maybe it's true.

Well, I, I, you heard a great story.

I, I gotta tell you, I, I got goosebumps as you were saying that. Um, you know, and it's really interesting because in the world I live in, I wouldn't even question that, you know. And I think it's really interesting how it goes back to our, like, giving people permission to tell stories. Because, you know, why did she hold that back from you, from your mother, even for the while that she did? Well, because I don't want to be seen as weird, or I don't want to be seen as, you know, woo-woo, uh, as, as we call it in the world that, that I'm in. Um, you know, that's— those things, they definitely happen. I, I totally believe what she said. And that's not— I'm not going to say it's not a rare occurrence. It's rare, but it's definitely not unheard of. Um, and so that's— I'm glad you told me. That was a really interesting, really interesting thing.

Yeah, really. Uh, you know, whether she was really saw that or just delusional or was thinking about it, or maybe it was somebody else that she thought it was my grandmother. You know, there's all kinds of ways that you can rationalize it, right?

Sure you can.

Um, but she was pretty hardcore about, no, that was your mom.

Yeah.

Yeah. That was wild.

Uh, it is. I'm glad you shared that with me. So, um, now that you've, you've written the book and you are where you are now, if you could go back and talk to your younger self, What would you, what would you say to younger David?

Don't worry so much. That'd be the very first thing I would say. It's going to be fine.

Yeah.

Going to be ups and downs. Going to get ugly. Accept the things that you don't do well. Accept the things you screw up, the mistakes you made. It's going to be okay. Accept them. Move on. Yeah, I think I was like a lot of young people, you know, pretty self-conscious. You know, and maybe at times to a fault, you know, but I don't think that's unusual for a lot of people, young people. So especially, you know, those high school years, my God, those are— I think about high school, high school was awful. I mean, I had a good high school and I made good friends and I think I had a good experience, but you look back and it's like, that is just a mixture of Hell, yeah.

Yeah.

It's not a good, it's not a good experience for a lot of people. Um, so yeah, I would say don't worry so much. Don't, don't worry so much. Don't, uh, don't anticipate that one thing that goes off the rails, that means it's always going to be off the rails, you know. And, and I would even say that now older people, because, you know, it The bad things don't, don't last, and the good things don't last.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really important lesson. I think that, um, I look at the, the suicide rate among young people now and anxiety and depression, and, and I understand it. I, I get it because it's because of that, that all-or-nothing mentality. Because if things are bad, things are always going to be bad. You know, you make a mistake And I know people who have had a fight with their girlfriends, you know, in their 20s and taken their lives. Because it's like, oh, this is, this is the end. And I, you know, remember breaking up with a girlfriend when I was that age or getting divorced at that age. And I remember, you know, thinking, this is it, I'm never going to find anybody again. I was 25 years old, you know. So Yeah, I think it's, that's a great lesson for us to share with our younger selves and, and to pass along to our, our children now, to give them that perspective as much as we can. We can't, we can't let them— they can't live in our shoes, right? But we can say, hey, I felt the same way when I was your age, and it worked out okay.

Yeah, right, right. You know, and, and I guess the only problem with that is when you're young, you're like, yeah, whatever, Dad.

Yeah, exactly.

You're not really accepting what you're hearing. You're like, Yeah, that's not true. Because I know everything right now because I'm 20. Right. But, you know, I do think in time, they start to— hopefully they do.

Yeah. Well, as we talked about me, I remember again sitting at the table, my grandmother and I was 16 and her saying these things to me. And I'm like, yeah, okay, well, you're old. You've always been old. I thought she was born old, right? She's always been this age. It took a while. It took probably 20 years before I started really appreciating it.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. I think my, my sons are, are starting to get that now. Yeah, 32, 31, and 33, soon to be 33.

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's around the age when, when your parents start to say, oh, they do know something, right? And I, and I, right, and after my parents are that too, you know, because I work with parents and they're like, my kid's 15 or 16, they don't listen to me. I'm like, that's what happens. And I said, especially boys, because boys are brain damaged. So they're brain damaged until they're at least 25. So you have to expect that's the way they're going to act.

Yeah, I, I've said to my— when my daughter, my granddaughter, who's only 3, but when she'll act up or be rebellious or try to manipulate, and I'm like, that's what they do. That's, that's finding themselves, right?

Right.

They're, they're pushing the envelope to figure out who I am. I said, you know, just, it's just the deal. It's just the process.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, all those, all those phases that we go through, and I mean, like, you and I can look at it and go, yeah, I remember, I remember being in my 20s, and I remember being my 30s. And, you know, we can, we can, we can hopefully, maybe one day people in America will get back to the point where we respect and the elderly, the ancient ones.

You know, I think that might happen sooner than we think because we are getting older as a society by the day.

Yeah, that's true.

There are a lot more older— what you call older people with quotes around it— uh, now than there were many years ago. And, uh, yeah, we're still a youth-driven culture, but, you know, the older generation does have a lot of power, and we're gaining in numbers by the day. So sooner or later, maybe we'll get it.

Well, it's really interesting, you know, not to get into politics too much, but we're, you know, we're looking at a guy over 80 and a guy pushing 80 as our presidential candidates, and now we have a 60-year-old in the race and people are like, oh, she's young. Yeah, what's the last time you heard a 60-year-old called young?

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. That is very true. I hadn't thought about it in that way, but that's true. She's like the young gun now, right?

Right.

Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Wow.

Well, David, it's, uh, it's been great getting to know you. Um, let people know, remind people about the name of the book, uh, where they can find out more about you and where they can get the book.

Well, I appreciate that. The, the book is Daylight Saving Time: The Power of Growing Older. Uh, it's from Collective Ink Books in the UK. Um, it is available anywhere you buy online books. You can, if you're a big bookstore person and if they don't have it on their shelf, they can order it for you. That's, that's great. I love bookstores, but I understand the world is different today. So however you do that, you can find it. As far as I'm concerned, me personally, you can find a lot about me at davidwburner.com. It's B-E-R-N-E-R. I do a Substack. If you're familiar with Substack, I do a Substack regular— I call it regular. Essay on all kinds of things. You can find that through my website or just Google it. I mean, Googling me is— you'll find me.

Yeah, awesome.

It's pretty easy.

Well, thanks for being here this afternoon. I know you're on your way to see your son. I appreciate you taking the stop to do this and enjoy the time with him and your granddaughter.

I really enjoyed this conversation. You have a great way of leading us through a lot of different, uh, subjects, and I appreciate it, Brian. It's been a great day. Thanks.

Great to see you. Have a great afternoon.

You too.

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