The UNTHINKABLE Loss That Couldn’t Break Him—Eric Hodgdon’s MIRACULOUS Story of Survival!

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Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I've got with me a gentleman named Eric Hodgdon. He's a coach, he's an author, he's a speaker. He lost his 15-year-old daughter Zoe to suicide in early 2014. And Eric's found a way to survive, to get back up and get through his grief journey. He's now living beyond his loss. He's sharing his journey so that no one else has to go through this alone on their path. Eric's TEDx talk, TEDx talk, is close to 400,000 views and is continuing to give hope that we can all get up after the loss of a loved one. And I met Eric through his TEDx talk. Someone recommended to me and I reached out and asked him to be on the show. His book is called A Sherpa Named Zoe. It's an instant Amazon bestseller. And he's trained thousands of people who simply wanted to know how to navigate the worst setbacks that can happen to all of us. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth, Eric Hodgdon.

Thank you so much, Brian. I really appreciate us having this conversation today, because I think it's very much needed.

I absolutely 100% agree. And we were start— we were talking before we started recording, you and I have a lot of parallels. Yes, we just, we had the facial hair, we got the same haircut. Our daughters both passed at the age of 15. Your daughter in 2014, mine in 2015. And as I was reading your book, the name Zoe resonates with me too. I wanted to name my first daughter Zoe. My wife vetoed it. So I ended up naming my dog Zoe several years later, but I have a dog named Zoe too.

Well, I was gonna name my daughter Brian. So I mean, look at this. No, no, it's all good. No, I appreciate, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's, it's interestingly enough, in Greek, the name Zoe means life.

Yeah.

And so I think Zoe has been a gift to not only the folks, her friends, our family, anybody she came in contact with while she was here, but I still believe that her life is affecting and impacting others today. 7, 8 years, 9, 9 years almost now after she, after she passed. So yeah, that's, that's pretty powerful.

Yeah, yeah. What I want to do, I kind of know your story, because I've heard you talk, and I just finished your book. And it's wonderful. But I'd like you to tell our audience about Zoe.

Well, I appreciate that, Brian.

In my—

when I was about 27 years old, Zoe's mom and I found out that, that we were pregnant. And we were going to my 10-year high school reunion. And it was pretty funny because we were sitting in this outdoor cafe in Freeport, Maine, talking about baby names. Now in the Greek tradition, it's very traditional to name your child after the father's parents. Well, there's already 5 Christinas or Chris's in the house, in the house, in the family. So that's not going to work. And my dad's name was Walter. And so I said, if that's— if Zoe, at that point, if, if the baby comes out as a boy, we'll have— we'll call him Walter. If it's a girl, then we'll figure out another name. And so we had a pretty good idea that it was going to be a girl. And so I started asking questions. I said, what's the Greek word for freedom? And she said, it's Eleftheria. And I said, okay, so we could call her Ellie or Elle for short. I said, what's the Greek word for hope? And she said, that's Elpida. So again, we're Elle or Ellie. I said, what's the Greek word for life? And she said, that's Zoe. And we both looked at each other. And we said, yes, And so on October 18th, 1998, Zoe Christina Hodgdon was born. And I remember sitting down next to her plexiglass cradle in the hospital. And I looked at her and I was really scared because now I'm 100% responsible for this, this, this person's life. And I just said to her, I said, I'm going to do everything in my power to be the best dad for you. And it really— I, I tried hard to embody that for her 15 years that she was here. You know, towards the latter part of Zoe's life, she was struggling. She was in some group, adolescent group homes. And, and we were finding a way for her to come back home and live with me. Her mom and I got divorced in 2007, uh, and so, uh, we were trying to find a way back home, if you will. And, uh, unfortunately, in late January, Zoe took her life. Um, it was probably the single worst day of my life up to that point. Um, and I just, I didn't know where to go or what to do. I looked around and I felt as though every thought was pushing me further and further down into a dark abyss of grief. And the only glimmers of light that were coming through the darkness were her friends and my family checking in with me, and I was checking in with them. And I don't— there was something about that, Brian, that was just so powerful. Because I didn't, I knew that I did not want to stay in this abyss. I knew I was there because I was grieving. It's part of the grief process, if you will. But I didn't want to stay there. And so I vowed to fight for my family and all of Zoe's friends to find our better days. And so that's every time I contacted them or they contacted me, it was— I was always asking them several questions like, you know, how are you doing? What's on your mind? What are you struggling with right now? What have you done to get through today or yesterday? What do you think it'll be like a year from now or 6 months from now? And while I know this stinks and sucks, you're going to have to embrace it. But we can do it together. You don't have to do it alone. And I think that's one of the biggest messages in this process that you know, a lot of folks think that nobody's going to get me, I got to do this alone. But I wanted Zoe's friends to know that they weren't alone. And that in helping them, it conversely helped me as well. So very impactful group of friends. And I'm happy to report that all of her friends are still here. And, and I still connect with them and communicate with them frequently. So collectively, they remind me of her. And so it was a very free-spirited child. She was just all about love and connection. And just a beautiful being. And I still feel— I don't know about you, but I still feel as much love for her as I did the day she was born. And that was so scary at the beginning, because I'm like, oh no, Zoe's gone. Am I gonna, you know, forget about her? Am I going to stop loving her? But it wasn't about that. It was about just carrying on with her friends so that we could continue to feel the same love from Zoe. And from now until the end of our days. So that's a little bit about Zoe.

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that. She sounds like, you know, a wonderful girl. I'm sure. I was struck when I, when I was reading your book, and as you told your story, you know, when we, when a child is lost from— I hate that word lost, but when a child transitions, leaves, leaves this plane, you know, as a parent, and I could feel your love for Zoe, so I can only, and I, and I have some— I have some idea of what you went through. I remember walking into Shana's room and finding her and she was suddenly gone. So I know that feeling of sudden loss. But you immediately seem to be like, helping everybody else. Where do you think that came from?

That's a, that's a really good question. I thought honestly, up to that point, Brian, I thought that my divorce from Zoe's mom was the hardest thing that I'd ever gone through in life.

I—

that was never a plan. My parents are still married. Her parents were married. And so when we went through that process, it was such a deep amount of loss, and I had no coping skills at the time. And so I started to see a wonderful therapist up in Massachusetts where I was living at the time. And she's like, okay, what are we going to do? You know, it's not, it's not so much how are you feeling? You know, tell me how you're doing today. No, she wanted to dive right in. I'd already been seeing her a little bit during our separation. And so for the next 7 years, up until the time that Zoe died, I was in therapy once a month at the minimum. And I always felt like it was a chiropractic adjustment for my, for my head, you know, for my thoughts. And so when Zoe passed, I knew. And I remember driving home from the hospital that night, my sister was driving me and I was, I was holding on to the seatbelt like I was gonna fall. It was kind of surreal. And I just said to her, I said, I don't want to go back down to that dark hole of depression like I did with my divorce. And she couldn't really say anything to that. My sister, she's just, you know, kind of looking at me because we're just all in shock as well. And so, and so, but I didn't, that was the thing. I remember a couple of weeks later, I went back to my therapist just to have, you know, she wanted to check in with me. And she asked, you know, where are you right now? She wasn't asking, how am I doing? She's like, where are you right now? And I love that question. Because it was so, it gave me the opportunity to answer openly and honestly. And I said, well, I said, I've kind of looked at that hole that's in the ground, it's the size of an ant hole, I can't fit in it. So I'm not going down in there. And, and I think that was partly because, to answer your question as well, that because Zoe's friends and my family were with me in those early days and weeks, supporting me and our family as we were trying to figure this out, they needed that as well. And I did not want anybody else to feel like they didn't have something to connect to. In this darkness. And we all need a guide. We all need a guide through this. Yes, we can go it alone. Yes, we can let time be the healer. But I think time is not the driver of our healing. It's a companion along the way. And so I didn't want any of Zoe's friends, or my family to feel like they didn't have a way forward. And so I decided to focus on their— what they needed, because it in turn helped me, if that makes some sense.

Yeah, it makes, it makes a lot of sense. And I was again just reading your— in your book, you talked about how many people showed up at Zoe's, uh, service. Uh, it was what, 900 people or so showed up?

Yeah, over 900 people. Uh, we were there for 5 hours at the wake. Um, I would have stayed there another 5 if there were more people, but they had to, they had to get you know, they had to prepare for the next day for the, for the service and her funeral. And it was, it was a very powerful experience, Brian. I felt strangely connected to Zoe, even though she was— she had passed. I wanted to be the steward of her life.

Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief— most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I, it's, you know, it's, again, I have a friend who is Greek. And so I'm gonna throw a stereotype out here. But I think It's true. And it seems like you and your family, you seem very, very closely connected. You talked about that thing about naming your child after your father. That's what his— that's what his parents did. His sister named Paulina, his father's name was Paul. So I can— as I'm reading your book, as I'm getting this, I'm like, I kind of get this vibe from you. Yeah, that you've gone through life with community, that you— yeah, you've had that to rely on. Is that true?

It is true, Brian. You know, I'm a kind of— I'm an introverted kind of person. I like to spend a lot of time reflecting and getting centered and recentered. And so, but I know the importance of relationships and family and community has got to be at the heart of any healing process. And so what, what was really powerful after Zoe— and I didn't expect any of that, by the way, because I didn't really know what to expect. All of this, and you'll, you know this too, it, this is, this happened out of order. It's not supposed to be this way. Right. And so when her friends showed up at my house the day after and they stayed there for 3 weeks, I had, I have a, I had a very small house at the time. I have maybe 1,100 square feet, but I had 20 to 25 people in there and it still felt like the house was big just because of the energy. The only thing that was missing was Zoe's physical presence, because we felt her that entire week. And we weren't— that we were, you know, it was an emotional roller coaster. We were smiling one minute, we were all collectively crying the next. But at no point did we ever feel alone.

Yeah.

And so the community is really important. And I think this is the hardest part, is that after about 2 or 3 weeks, when everybody goes back to their lives, you're there in this deafening silence of, oh gosh, what's next?

Yeah.

How am I ever going to get through this? How am I going to survive this? And how can I even think about anything beyond that right now? Because, you know, it's, it's, it's an emotional mess, right? And I remember feeling that, I mean, I couldn't sleep, and I couldn't eat, and I had phantom pains in my body.. And, uh, it was just surreal. I, you know, I'd be jolted awake in the middle of the night, like, is this real? Is this a, you know, is this a nightmare? Flashbacks. I mean, all these things that I'm sure you can, uh, attest to as well. Um, and what about you, Brian, for, you know, with you and Shayna, you know, what, what was some of the things that, that Shayna left behind that are still impacting you today? Her qualities and traits.

Oh, wow. Well, you know, I was telling you earlier that I wanted to name my daughter Zoe. And Shayna, my older daughter, I have an older daughter, Kayla.

Okay.

And I believe in meanings of names. So Kayla's name is, is pure. Shayna's name actually is Hebrew, and it means beautiful. And she's named after my aunt. So her middle name is Elaine, which is light. So she's beautiful, light. So if I couldn't name her Zoe, Shayna was the second best thing. But that spark, that spark of life, that zest for life, that living full out, always wanting to have fun. Just, just, just a bright light, you know, just, just a very bright light. And again, we have so many parallels because even though I'm not really that close with my family, we're more like, we're more distant. But when Shayna passed away, that first couple of weeks, my family came here. And I didn't drive for 2 weeks. Someone drove me everywhere that I went. There was always someone here. And I felt that, that connection with my family, frankly, that I had never felt before. It was really kind of surreal. And as you said, the only thing missing was, was Shayna's physical presence. And that's still to this day, she's, you know, what she left with me is her spirit. She's still with me. You know, we were talking before we started recording, we both got pictures of our daughters behind us. Yeah, you know, when we're doing this, because I used to use a fake Zoom background. And it was, it was a picture of a room. And I had a photograph, or like a lithograph of a woman's face up there. And someone asked me once, is that your daughter? And I heard Shayna say in my ear, it's like, no, but that needs to be me. So I cropped her into my, into that fake background. And now she's in here in my real background.

I love it.

And that's, it's more than symbolic. She's what drives me. She's, she's right over my shoulder. And I know that's how you feel about Zoe as well.

Yeah, it's so funny. I, in the week after she passed, I was so convinced that we were going to be able to talk like you and I are having a conversation right now. I don't know why. Maybe it was a defense mechanism in my brain trying to help me make sense of what was going on. But I remember getting to that point a couple of weeks after we laid her to rest. And I'm in my house, I'm in my living room standing there, and it's quiet, and I can't hear her. And I got scared. I'm like, oh no, I'm never going to hear from her. And probably for the next 15, 16 months, I was, you know, always asking her, Zoe, I miss you. I just want to hear from you. I didn't dream about her that much. And the dreams that I had were pretty powerful. There was just a handful of them in 15 or 16 months. And I was back, I got back to work after a few months after she passed. And I was invited to go out to Los Angeles to help the company I was working for create a booth at a tech show. And I was the IT guy at the time. And I loved it. I'd never been out to LA. And so we get through that few days of the trade show, it went off without a hitch. And my boss at the time said, hey, man, I need you to stay back, I need you to bring the rental car back, because I— and make sure that everything gets shipped out back to the, back to the company space. And I said, no problem. And so for the last day I was in LA, I had access to a rental car, fully gassed up. I'm like, I've been— I'm in LA, I've never been out here. Let's, let's go somewhere. So I drove to— I didn't know where I was going. LA is huge. I don't know if you've ever been out there, Brian. It is huge. And, and so I went over to Santa Monica Beach. And I had heard that was such a beautiful beach. And so I decided to stop there. This was end of May, early June. And there's this phenomenon out there called, uh, May rain, June gloom, where for those early, late spring months, in the mornings the coastline is just— it's either foggy or gloomy, and it might be rainy there. And, and that was no different. Yet when I left the hotel about an hour earlier, it was bright and sunny, LA 75-degree weather, right? And so I parked there was nobody at the beach because it was such a nasty, I guess, you know, weather day for them. And so I, I wanted to find a rock, just a single rock that— because I told Zoe after she died that if I take any trips anywhere, I'm going to bring a rock from the place I'm at, bring it home, put it up in her room, and tell her a little story about what I did and where I found it. And so I'm on a mission now. And Santa Monica Beach, by the way, is huge. It is long and it is deep in terms of wide. You know, it takes a while to, you know, walk in a straight line from the parking lot down to the water. Could take you a good 15, 20 minutes. I mean, it's a walk. And so I start walking and I'm looking for rocks. I'm like, it can't be that hard. It's a beach. Now there's no rocks on Santa Monica Beach. And so I'm walking, I'm walking, and then boom, I finally found a rock. It's not great looking. It's just a little round, 1-inch round rock. And so I picked that up and put that in my pocket. I've succeeded in my, in my quest to find a rock. And I wanted to now go put my feet in the, in the Pacific because I'd never done that before. So I'm zigzagging, I walk 5 minutes in a different direction. And I look down and I find another rock. It's a little bit longer, a little thinner. I still, I put it in my pocket. Maybe it was just because of the rarity of the rocks that I just wanted to collect more than one. And so I kept walking and zigzagging to get my way down to the water, and I managed to find two more small rocks, and I put those in my pocket. And I'm standing at the water. I took my shoes off, my socks off, and I'm standing there on this cool water, ocean water, and I'm looking to my left and to my right, and there is nobody there except for one person who's probably about half a mile down the beach in a chair looking out over the water. And that was it. There was nobody else there. And I said to myself, man, Zoe, I wish you were here right now. You would love this. It was warm. It felt like the perfect weather day in terms of it wasn't blazing hot sun. It wasn't raining. It was just cloudy and overcast. But the, you know, 75 degrees, it was perfect. And then I remembered that Zoe was a Red Hot Chili Peppers fan. And I'm like, oh my gosh, they're from Santa Monica. And then it hit me. And I look a little upset. I'm like, Zoe, I wish you were here right now. You would absolutely love this right now. And I probably stayed there for about another 15, 20 minutes and just kind of took the environment in, listened to the waves crash. Looked at a sailboat going way out across the horizon and just taking it all in. And I made my way back to the car, got in the car, went back to the hotel I was staying in, and I went to my room, Brian. And I was— I took the, the rocks out of my pocket and I placed them on the desk in the room, and I looked at them strangely. I'm like, wait a minute, I moved two of the rocks and it spelled her name. And I broke down crying, not because she wasn't there, but I broke down crying because she was there. She was there that day. I'm not that creative to be able to put that stuff together. And just for 4 small rocks to write Z-O-I, it blew me away. And it— that showed me that, that there— we're still very much connected. This, I feel, was a sign, if you will, from Zoe that this is how she was going to communicate moving forward.

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that story. As you're telling it, I'm just getting covered with goosebumps. And, you know, I'm an engineer by training, right? So I'm one of those people, I'm very, very rational, very skeptical. I'm like, how does this stuff work? But Shana sends me signs all the time. And I don't know. Yeah. I don't know how they work.

How do they show up for you? What do you see? And what do you hear? Like, what senses does she touch?

It can be all kinds of things. It's— she loved electronics. So a lot of times it's through my phone. So this happened actually before she passed. I don't even know this happened. Somehow her contact list got merged with my contact list. And a lot of people in their family, she put hearts next to their names. So my name on my phone says Daddy and has hearts next to it. So every once in a while, when I get a message from somebody, it'll come up like it's coming to Daddy and it's got the hearts on it. I don't know how that happened. Yeah, one time my podcast episodes, I was looking at them on my phone, and every single cover on my podcast episodes of my stream had changed to a picture of Shane, one of my favorite pictures of her. Wow. And I'm like, that is strange. Because I thought it had happened like across the internet, of course. So I went and checked the internet. It was only on my phone. It wasn't anywhere else. Wow. And then somehow they flipped back. Wow, things like, you know, flashing lights, you know, the normal thing, like the ceiling fan will come on, the light will come on. One time, she— my hard drive, my computer started acting really funky for like a week. And I'm trying to troubleshoot it. And I'm talking to my tech guy that was helping me out. He goes, I think you have to buy a new computer. I'm like, I'm gonna give another day because it was just, it was going back and forth. It wasn't like consistent. And then it just started working again. And like, a week later, I had a reading with a medium, and she said, Shayna says she messes with your computer. And I'm like, oh, Shayna, stop doing that. Wow. So there's just been all kinds of stuff like that. Animals, you know? Yes, the whole, the whole gamut of things.

Yeah.

I—

and it's interesting in your book, because I'm part of Helping Parents Heal. I mentioned earlier, I don't know if you're familiar, but we're really into the afterlife stuff and the science and all that. In your book, I didn't see so much of that. But you did tell some stories. Like, I was really fascinated by— you had a couple of after-death communications with Zoe. Yeah, like, like, so tell us about those. Those—

that did not happen through any type of training or any type of meditation practice. It happened because I was missing Zoe so very much. And I just wanted to connect with her. And there was one specific day I was at work, and I was having a really difficult time. I commuted from the town I lived in, in Southwestern Boston, into Boston itself. And it's about a 45-minute ride. And I had been back to work for a few months. And I was still kind of dealing with all this. Sometimes I would just sit in my office and just close the door and just, you know, weep, because that's what I was feeling at the time. But this particular day, I was just— I don't know, something popped into my head. And I was feeling so stuck emotionally. I was— I couldn't stop weeping at my desk. And so I went into my boss, he saw my eyes were kind of red and puffy. And I'm like, I gotta go, man. He's like, don't worry about it, go ahead. So I get to the commuter rail as quickly as possible. And there's a train that's leaving right away. And because it's mid-afternoon, it's not very busy. So I pretty much had an entire train car to myself. And it was these double-decker cars that they used. And so I go up to the second floor of this double-decker car, and I sit in the very last seat. It's a single seat. And I am still trying to fight back tears. And I close my eyes. And I need to calm down, I need to find a different space, because this isn't working right now. And I say space, meaning a mental space. And so I closed my eyes. And I said, all right, just imagine this most peaceful place that you can possibly think of. Meaning it's almost vacation-like in terms of its feeling that there's no cares, there's no worries. You just feel like you are just— your toes are uncurling and you're relaxing and you're breathing again. And what opened up in my mind's eye was this high-elevation lake. And it was dusk. Across the other end of the lake was this mountain. And behind it, the sun was setting behind the mountain. And but the sky was going from this deep purple to a pink to a blue, you know, in terms of just the way you see colors at night sometimes during a sunset. And it was so peaceful there. Like, the lake was like a glass of water. But I allowed myself in my mind's eye to look all around and see details. There was a, a, an old, uh, driftwood tree to my right that was laying on the edge of the lake, but that was the only one of those. Beneath my feet were these smooth, almost silk-like feeling black rocks that were lining the shore. The water was, was clear. And to my left, I look and I see Zoe coming to me. And she's wearing this flowing sheer— what's the word I'm looking for? I don't know the term. It's a chiffon, or it's a very— it's a— it's— she's wrapped around in this material and it's flowing behind her. But it's the same colors as the sky. And her hair's in a bun in the back. And she comes up to me, I'm like, oh my God, Zoe, are you okay? That was the only thing I could ask at that time. And she's like, Dad, I'm more than okay. I'm like, oh, and I, I just started asking her a bunch of questions. And some of them I can't remember just because I was just rapid fire, you know, what do you do right now? You know, how do you feel like all? And all these questions were so I don't know, realistic in terms of, of what, where she is and what she's doing with her, her energy, if you will, her soul. And at the very tail end of this conversation, I'm just feeling, I'm feeling relaxed, I'm feeling ultra connected to Zoe in this space. And I said, you know, are you going to always be here? And she said, Dad, there's no space and time here, man. So whenever you are going to come back, I'll be here. I'll be in the same spot. And I came out of that, what I call a meditation, if you will. And I was at my stop. I had— I didn't fall asleep. I wasn't asleep. I had just gone into this space. And it had taken 45 minutes.. And so I, at that point, I, I needed to write about that. So I came home and I just grabbed a notebook and just wrote out what I had just experienced, because I didn't know if I was ever going to share that with anybody. But I wanted to, to at least have it memorialized of the experience. And, and it wasn't the only one, there were several of these. I had one on her graduation day from high school. But that was setting up in her bedroom the day of. That was very powerful. I think I wrote about that in the book. But yeah, there were just some other ones. But it just— what it showed me was also that we are, you know, we're in this realm that we are here. It is a physical realm. Energy doesn't die, it just transforms into the next iteration of itself.. And so I had finished, I just finished reading a book called Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander. If you haven't read that book, I would. It's fantastic. And in this book, he had a near-death experience. And he's talking about how we are all connected, basically, that when somebody moves from this realm to the next realm, and I'm not encouraging this, by the way, all I'm saying is that when you move from this realm to the next realm, you are ultra-connected to everything that is living on this planet. Every grain of sand, every blade of grass, almost every water molecule, every air molecule. And when, like, for the way that you can relate to this is in your room where you are right now, you know what's in this room. I, like, I know what's in behind me in my room here in terms of pictures, books on my shelves, the color of the walls, my desk. This computer, all of it. But take that and amplify that to this entire world. And you're connected to everything. And that is, that's why I felt like Zoe was at such peace when she came to me because she's like, okay, this is cool. Yeah, I can, I can work with this, you know. And so it was just a very powerful experience, Brian.

That's, that's phenomenal. And as I was reading that in your book, and as you tell the story again, I'm thinking about, you know, there's something called induced after-death communications, where people will use guided meditations to get to that space. And as you describe it, that's kind of the way I've— and I've done a few of these with some professionals. And that's kind of the way they try to get you to that space. They have you imagine a peaceful place, whatever that might be for you. And the fact this just came spontaneously to you, I think, is is fascinating. Without, without, you know, training or without any kind of prompts or music or, you know, you're sitting there on the train.

Yeah.

But it shows that, that connection that— and it's interesting because when people— when someone crosses over, a lot of times we're like, where are you? Why can't I hear from you? And I've heard people say that deep grief can prevent them from reaching us, that, that the density of the, of the spirit or the emotion, the frequency we're at, they can't reach as low as we are. But it seems like sometimes the opposite is true. It's like, yeah, we get to that low place of like, desperation, right? And we just cry out. And that seems to pierce the veil.

Well, yeah, that's a great point. I think that we, you know, when we're grieving, we're in a sympathetic state physically. Our vagal nerve system is protecting us. It is a survival mechanism that dates way back to 250,000 years ago for early humans where this system was, was evolved into the system as a means to protect ourselves in danger. Grief is a stressful event. Stress prompts your vagal nerve system to— I got it. Okay. Fight, flight, or freeze, or fawn, right? It's one of those four.. And in that moment, I was able to, without, again, not really knowing what I was doing, but calming myself. I must have done some diaphragmatic breathing, even though I didn't understand what I was doing, because, or something converted that sympathetic state to the parasympathetic state, which is calm and connected. Rest and digest is the other part of that. So I think that's why I was able to do that. And that's what I think pierces the veil when you're you're so wound up and you're so upset, that could be a low point. Like you're saying, in your grief, to the point where it's, you know, you'll try anything. And if you haven't tried going opposite of what you're feeling, or, you know, then I could have just— I could have bounced that day, if you will. You know, I was definitely up here from a sympathetic state But something happened and I bounced down to that parasympathetic state and I was able to connect with Zoe. And the train was loud, by the way. There's squealing wheels and brakes and horns and, you know, the clicking of the wheels going over the tracks. You know, it's a noisy thing. I didn't hear any of that that day. It just— and I wasn't asleep either. So it was an experience that I was grateful for. And I was able to, to continually use that over the next couple years. Every once in a while, I can't— it's hard for me to go back there now, Brian, to be honest with you. Just because I think that when I needed it the most, it showed up. And I was able to access it.

Yeah, those experiences are really interesting. I was going to ask you how many you've had, because we all want that mountaintop experience all the time. And that just doesn't seem to be the way life works, right? We can't we can't go back and grab it again. It's like we have to, you know, take it for what it is. But, and I'm actually doing the— I took a meditation class with a guy named Kelvin Chen. And he talks about like, you know, when you're— people meditate, they talk about these great experiences he has. It's like, it's not about the experience, you know, don't, don't get caught up on trying to have that experience. It's about just, you know, reaching that calm place.

Yes.

And I always say to people, it's like, I think we get what we need, because people will say to me, why didn't I have the kind of connection that Eric had? And I've done all these interviews, and I get jealous because I have people like, well, I saw my loved one. They actually came into my room one night, and they were standing at the foot of my bed. And I'm like, why can't I have that? Right? But we, I think we all get what we need. I think we all have a unique connection with our, with our loved one.

We do. And I'd like to ask the question often of the folks I work with, is, you know, what happens when we let go of what we're holding on to. Um, I remember 3 years ago— this isn't in my book— but, uh, 3 years ago I had moved from Massachusetts to Maine. I had sold the house that, that we were in at the time. Uh, it was a challenging time to, uh, be leaving, but I absolutely loved where I was going to be living up in Maine along the coast, and I remember really struggling with feeling as though I was going back and regressing in my healing. Because wake up every morning, I'd be like, oh, I miss you, Zoe. And I miss you, Zoe. And I'd say it so many times that I'd start to get really upset and cry. And now I'm weeping again. This is 5 years after she had died. And, and so I called a mentor of mine, a coach, and we're talking and I'm explaining You know, I'm doing one of those things. I'm crying so hard, right? And, and she's like, Eric, what would happen if you let Zoe go? And Brian, when she said this, I got pissed. I'm like, what do you— what do you mean? Like, what do you mean, let her go? What does that even mean?

Let her go?

Right?

You know, I'm like, this is my— I'm not letting this kid go. Like, this is my daughter. What do you— she's like, no, no, no, work with me. What does it feel like if you let Zoe go? And I knew why I was pushing back and kind of getting frustrated with her, because it, it hit me emotionally that there was going to be a gap there. And that's what I said to her, there's this gap there between us. And she's like, Eric, I hate to break it to you, man, but— and you can hear this— but the gap already exists. And I'm like, oh. And, and I just started boohooing big time on the call. But pretty soon, right after that, She's like, but tell me, what does it feel like when you fill that gap with love and other things? And immediately I just like, well, it's great because I'm helping other people who are struggling. I'm, I'm building new resources for people. I'm just, you know, thinking about what I'm going to do, how I can help somebody through social media, or, you know, maybe help people to get connected to my book. Like all these things were lighting me up with energy. She's like, that is it. That's it. That's how you fill that gap. You don't fill it with the what-ifs and whys. You fit it in, fill it in with what can I do right now? And, you know, to, to, to kind of help myself. Nobody else is coming to help us here. And so it is up to us, but we don't have to do it alone. That's the beauty of it. And so ultimately, before we finished up the call, she said, it's not so much that you're letting go of Zoe, you're just letting go of the pain. And it's okay to do that. You don't have to carry that with you. You'll always carry Zoe with you. And she said, imagine what it feels like when all that you carry with you now is just the love that you have for Zoe. And I'm like, done. Like, yeah, drop the phone. Like, call's good. I'm good. Thank you. And so such a huge pivot point along my journey here of healing. And how about you, Brian? I mean, have you had those moments where you've kind of come up to a crossroads, like, okay, I got to make a decision here about what I'm going to do?

Yeah, only every day. But good point. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but there's a couple things you said there that I really want to, want to go back to, I want to reiterate, because I think it's really important that when I read your book, and I see you're such a together guy, and you give a TED Talk, people a lot of times would think, well, that guy's healed. It's all, it's done when he wrote the book, you know, and that was a couple years ago, right? Several years ago, you wrote the book. Right. But you still had this moment afterwards. And people need to understand that grief is not a linear progression, right? We don't, we don't just get over it. And it's like, okay, now I'm done. Right. So I had a moment this morning, just before we got on the call, I was, I was doing my meditation. And it doesn't happen very often. But I was in my meditation, and I was trying to picture Shayna. And all I could think of was this picture behind me. And this was taken just a few weeks before she passed away. And she had just cut her hair off. And I can't remember her. I couldn't remember her with long hair. And I started crying, man, because I'm like, okay, I'm forgetting her.

Yeah.

And then I had this feeling, you know, of my loved ones coming around me. It was, it was a really weird moment. But yeah, that we do, we have this, it's always this back and forth thing. And we, we do miss that physical presence. And we still remember when she passed away. I mean, she was only 15. And I was in my mid-50s. And, you know, people are like, oh, Brian, you have a long time to live. I'm like, you don't understand. I don't want to live long. I don't want to forget her. I want to remember the way— just the way she was. So I wanted to set up camp right there and just not move.

Right.

So yeah, I understand that.

Yeah. It's so funny that you say that. Well, I'll say funny. I remember probably about 4 years ago, I used to go visit Zoe's resting place almost every single day. You know, initially, probably the first 3 years, I just felt like I was closer to her, even though it was a resting place. And I started to go probably on a weekly basis, you know, probably 4th, 5th year in, and, and I still go whenever I go up to New England to visit family and friends, I stopped by and spend time there. I just, I just feel like I'm close to her. So I remember this one afternoon, it was a summer afternoon, I was there at the cemetery, I just felt like this pull to go there to spend some time with with her. And, and, uh, I arrive, and a little bit further down, probably 5, 10 spots down, there was a woman standing over somebody else's grave, just probably saying a couple little prayers to herself. And, and, uh, out of the corner of my eye, I could see she was kind of walking towards me, and she stopped. She's like, I'm so sorry for your loss. I said, thank you so much. And she's like, um, you know, who is this? I said, unfortunately, it's my daughter. She's like, oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. What happened to her? I said, unfortunately, she took her life. Oh, oh, that's so horrible. Well, you're still young, you can have more kids. Right? And so what— here's the funny piece about this is that now, yes, I could have turned around and landed on her with all four feet. Not going to do that. Right. But instead, what I imagined was Zoe standing right in front of me looking at me with the same wide eyes, like, did Did she just say that? Did she just say that? So it to me, it almost turned into a healing type of moment or a resolved, like I was resolved with a lot of the grief. But you're absolutely right, Brian. This isn't something that we get to a destination. This is a journey. And this is something we carry for the rest of our lives. And, you know, I think that in those moments when we have, you know, we're at these crossroads, or we're able to step through to the next level of our healing, there's a catharsis that takes place before you reach that point. You know, you have to be resolved. And it's the example, the analogy that I like to use is that imagine if you have a water, plastic water jug, and your life is whole, as whole as it can be. And then you lose, or your loved one passes and take that water jug and just squish it back down to the very, like, to the minimal. There's no space in there. It's damaged. It's, it's, you know, you can throw it away. It feels, it feels like that's what your life is like, that you're just empty. You got nothing inside of you. And with time and with action and with, you know, connecting with others and whatever tools and means you use to help you to walk on this journey, there is some air and some capacity that comes back into your life. Now, if you've ever taken a crushed milk jug and tried to add air back into it, what happens is, as you start to add more, it starts to push on those sides and things start to pop back into place. Pop, pop, pop, to the point where you've got as much air as that is going to fit back into this water, this milk jug. And it's not whole though. It is dented. There's still some scrapes in there. There is, you know, it may not even stand up on its own, you know, but that's our lives. You know, we are pulling ourselves back together and re-adding this, this capacity back into our lives as best possible. It's not whole, but it has to be as whole as it's going to be for us to move forward.

Yeah.

And so now, sometimes externally, we kind of push that outside this, oh, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine. You know, we'll say to people, I'm good, I'm good. And meanwhile, you might be just crushed inside, you know. So I hope that analogy makes some sense.

It does. And I think, I think that's important for people, because you talk about in your book, and this is one, one of the ways, it's happened so many ways, people don't know what to expect on this journey, man. So they come to us and they're like, Okay, what's this going to be like? How long am I going to feel this way? When am I going to get back to normal? All the questions that you answer in your book, even though we can't answer for somebody else, we can give them some, some idea. And people ask me, like, am I ever going to be the way I was before? And I'm like, right, I always say, I hope not. And they're like, what do you mean? Like, because why would you waste this opportunity to grow? This is an opportunity to be better than you were before, not— yes, not back to where you were before. And It's like when you talk about thriving versus surviving. And I know that's really, really hard to hear early. And I know because when I heard it, I was like, no way. I'm not gonna— I'm not gonna thrive. Maybe I'll survive if you make me. I'm certainly not going to thrive. Right. And that's okay to feel that way, because it's very normal at the beginning. But just, I tell people, just have hope of having hope. Just look at someone like, like Eric and say, if he can do it, I can do it too.

Yeah. And, and like you said too, there's, I mean, there's no timeline for this, right? Um, but I think that what we have, uh, initially when I, when I first started to look for resources, I, what I found was a little bit, it, it kind of made me not angry, it just made me frustrated cuz it seemed like resources out there were telling me that survival was the best that I could hope for. On this journey. I'm not good with that. Because I don't want to just merely survive. I am here for a reason. And life is about living. We have a short time on this planet. And I think as much as possible, it's okay to honor your loved one and yourself at the same time. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

Right.

You know, and it's not, it's not easy, you know, surviving is necessary, but it should be temporary.

Right.

And so, you know, sir, if you can find a way to, like you said, have that hope and hold onto that hope, you can actually predict your way out of this, you know, predict the future and walk towards it as a, cuz that's an aim point. You know, hope can be an aim point.

Okay.

I wanna hope that I'm gonna have one day where I'm not gonna cry.

Right?

And maybe you'll get to that point sooner than you think, you know, but then I think once you survive, it's about getting back up. And that is a, that is a, that is a phase, if you will, of grief that you're having some better moments or some better days, but there's also days when you're not okay. And that's okay, too. And so it goes back and forth. It's just, it's almost like a roller coaster, a few ups and downs and but it is showing that you've made some progress. And, you know, and so ultimately, moving towards living beyond the loss is— I'm not gonna say ideal. It's just, it is a, it's another hope that you can live beyond the loss. And that's where I believe you're at. I feel like I'm there. I'm, but I'm still grieving. If that makes sense. And it's not, it's not heavy. It's, it's there. And so taking what I'm able to take from my journey thus far and apply that every single day and learn from folks like you about the tools that you share with your clients and your listeners and to just, you know, put that in my quiver of, of options. To, to use when I need to. I think that that's awesome. I, I want to leave this planet now better than I found it. And I think by doing this work, that's— this is my contribution. I don't want to be a consumer. I want to be a contributor to somebody else. Even finding one nugget, even in my talk or my book or a call or a— it doesn't matter whatever resource that I have, something to help them go to that next step. Let's take that one next step because we can't take all the steps at once. We can only take the next step that's in front of us.

Right.

So, yeah.

So I'm curious, because you're, you're a coach now and you've changed. What were you doing before Zoe transitioned? What were you doing like right before she transitioned in terms of career?

I'm a 25-year IT guy.

Okay.

That was my career. That was something that— it's interesting that you asked that, Brian, because When I was 22, I found that working on laptops and computers, it lit me up. I felt like I had a purpose. I just, I felt like I connected to it. Everything that I learned was self-taught. And I was a little bit ahead of the wave of having to get certified to get a job. I was just always in advance of that in terms of my where I was in my career. And so, uh, but I, I continued to learn. And when I lost Zoe, uh, I remember going back to work and there was a gentleman in one of our departments— I worked in a tech company, software company— and, uh, they require— this development team required mobile devices to do the work of testing the software. And they needed to have all these different brands and sizes and, and makes of these tablets and these iPhones and these phones and all that. And so I get this call from him one day. And he's like, man, where are my devices? I ordered these things like 3 weeks ago. And I said, sorry, I'll call him Bill.

Sorry, Bill.

I, I don't know where it is. Let me find out. And he's like, this is ridiculous. I need to talk to your boss about this. And I started laughing on the phone with him. I'm like, okay, go ahead. You know, I didn't care. You know, I think previously I probably, oh no, I, you know, I don't want that to happen type of thing. But in this instance, what popped into my head, the reason that I laughed was because I realized in that moment that that was not what matters in life. To him, it mattered for his work. And I understand that he needed to have that. Those components for his work. But there's more important things than free cell phones in this life. Right. And so I just felt this, that was, I think, the turning point in me saying, you know what, I don't think that this is my purpose any longer. And very shortly after that, I started to get involved in storytelling workshops and connecting with others about the work that I wanted to do and, and You know, 6 years later, here I am. So it's a very powerful, very powerful transition in life, even, you know, in this realm, to be able to step away from one thing and do another.

Right.

And so, yeah.

So I always— this is, I think, a curious thing I always ask people about, because there's a, there's controversy about whether we plan things or things are just fate or whatever. What are your thoughts on you and Zoe? Do you think this was planned? What? I'm just curious what you think about that.

In terms of her taking your life?

No, no, no. In terms of her transitioning early and you being here to do the thing that you're doing.

Got it.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting that I have met so many incredible people in the last 8 years. That I probably would not have met if Zoe was here. Now, of course, I wish that Zoe was here. I would prefer that. And, but I feel like this is almost, you know, death took Zoe's life, but it had to leave something behind. And it's a gift. These are gifts. And I think that we have to find these gifts, you know, but, but in order to find the gifts, it's not like we have to uncover anything, we just have to go forward, take the next step.

Yeah.

And that's exactly what's happened over the last 8 years. I have just come across so many wonderful people who are, who have wanted to help, or at least provided me some guidance on this journey to help me get to that next step so that I can continue to grow and learn and bring new resources, excuse me, new resources to the folks that I need to be helping. Between now and the time I take my last breath?

So yeah, yeah, I just, I guess that question I like to ask, it's something that's interesting to ponder. You know, one of the things that I believe, like you do, there are gifts. And I, and one of the things I teach is called positive intelligence. And we say there's, there's a 3-gift thing, right? So it can be the gift of knowledge, the gift of gaining strength from something, or the gift of inspiration. And some people believe that things are put in our life. And it seems to make sense. But on the other hand, like you said, we're meaning-seeking creatures. So we seek meaning in things. But the thing is, we can create meaning. And that's whether you believe it's fated or not. We can create meaning. But I, I love reading people's stories. I love reading your story. Because I can see you started the story, like you talked about some early deaths in your life. Yeah, which I think those things set us up. And as I look back through my life, I'm older than you are, I look back through my life, and I see all the events that I thought were terrible. I got divorced. And I thought that was like the worst thing. And it was the worst thing ever happened to me at the time. It's, it's like a death when you get divorced.

Yes, it is.

It's the end of a relationship. It's the end of who you are as a couple. Right. So, but all these things lead into the next thing.

Yes.

And so I'm, I was talking with just someone the other day, and I they asked me about, you know, Shana. And I said, they said, where do you think you'd be if Shana hadn't, you know, transitioned when she did? I'm like, well, I certainly wouldn't be talking to you. I don't know where I would be. But I know I wouldn't be here.

Right, right.

But you said something earlier, your therapist said, you know, it really caught my ear when she said that there's a gap between you and Zoe. I have to say, there's no gap between me and Shana.

I love it.

Yeah. You know, it's really weird. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I tell people, I talked to Shayna every day, literally every day. She has a sister Kayla, and I don't talk to her every day because Kayla's still in the physical. But I talked to Shayna every day. I mean, I feel like she's right here with me. I— it doesn't mean I don't miss her. It doesn't mean I don't cry. I was crying this morning. Doesn't mean I don't wish she was here. Right. But what I have learned through this this experience. I used to believe that people— I always believe in the afterlife. We go to heaven and we're in heaven. I didn't know that they're still here. And that's been the big difference for me.

Yeah, no, that's, that's really huge. And I appreciate that perspective, Brian. You know, we— what the one thing I love about our capacity as humans is that there isn't just one single way there's no one right way to grieve and to walk this journey except for the one way that works for you.

Right, right.

And so, you know, other— there might be some times when you're on this journey, and people might come up to you and be like, well, aren't you— you know, aren't you over this yet? Or, you know what you should do? You know, okay. You know, I know they're trying to help. But at the same time, I there's been folks that have come into my sphere, if you will, who have shown me other ways to, to heal. And it's not telling me what to do, it's reminding me of what's important. And, and the main thing to, to be here to remember this is that it's important to take care of yourself. It's okay to do that. It's okay to go at your own pace, on your own agenda, and on your own timeline, period. And if that takes you the next 50 years, then it takes you the next 50 years. If it takes you the next 5 months, okay. If it takes you 5 years, right? So it just— but it's not a comparison game. It's not a, you know, that person's, you know, people might come to you and say some things to you that make you feel like you're not doing enough. Or you're not healing fast enough. And, you know, smile and wave, boys, smile and wave. You know, it's like, it's just, I appreciate it. But at the same time, I need to focus on what's going to work for me. And everybody, everybody's like that. I think grief is like a fingerprint, in that there's similarities between us, but each experience is unique to us.

Yeah.

And so it's the same thing with a divorce. It's the same thing with the loss of a job. It's the same thing with loss. Loss is loss. And so, but obviously, this carries a lot more weight to it. Because it's a loved one. And, and yeah, I hope—

I love what you said in your book. And I love you called Zoe your Sherpa. Yes. Because and you said, well, you know, I can't do this for you. And as people that work with people in grief, you know, one of the things we have to learn very early on is we can't do anything for people, we can give them tools, we can say this worked for me, this is a, this is a suggestion that I have for you. And I'll never forget, there was a young lady I, that I interviewed for my podcast. And people, her mother passed away, and people are like, you should try walking, you should try yoga, you should try knitting. And she tried all these different things, and they didn't work for her. She got into powerlifting. She's like, powerlifting works. I love the repetition. Yeah, it makes my body, you know, look and feel. Yeah. And she's like, this works for me. So I tell people, you know, it's meditation. It's like, find the way that works for you. I can't tell you what works for you.

Mine's changed over the years.

Sometimes I do. I used to do guided meditations. Now I do silent meditations. It's just, this is where I am now.

Yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's something about that, that movement and meaning are linked. And so the more you take action, the more you can accelerate your way through whatever it is that you're feeling at the time. If you stay stuck, if you're stuck, are you First of all, are you breathing? Because we tend to brace and hold our breath. More importantly, are you moving? What can you do in that moment? And it's not so much telling somebody what to do, but like you said, it's reminding them, hey, maybe here's some suggestions for you to look at. Maybe something will resonate with you. And for this, for your, for your client to be able to go out and go powerlift, that's huge.

I love that.

That's huge. I mean, that is literal movement. It's, it's, it's, it's strength training and that physical strength can translate into emotional strength. And we need that we need to be able to know that we're going to get to the other side of this abyss that we're in, and feel like it was worth the, that part of the journey to navigate that. And that, you know, we emerge from that darkness, and we're starting to come back into reconnecting with our lives. And we feel like there's hope that you're going to feel better. You, like you said earlier, we're not going to feel the same. In fact, you hope you grow in this process to become a little bit better equipped with what else life will throw at you as you walk the rest of your journey. That's huge. And, and, but when you stay stuck, you are— it actually amplifies the pain. And so finding anything, even listening to your podcast, even reading a book, even, even going for a walk, or whatever might be cooking yourself some dinner, or going out and getting some takeout, it doesn't matter, whatever, riding the couch and watching Friends for 5 seasons in a row, you know, whatever works for you works for you. And so that's, I think, a something that people miss. They also don't want to give themselves permission to do that. They feel like if they're feeling better, then they're letting their loved one down. Well, how can I feel better? How can I feel better when they're not here? Like, I know. And so, but you can, it is okay. It is okay to honor yourself because you honor your loved one. And you can do them at the same time.

Yeah, you just said something there just triggered something for me when you talked about all these different things. It's, it's really not so much what we do. It's the intention that we do them with. So, you know, yes. So we spent, said, like mentioning watching 5 seasons of Friends. You could do that with the intention of like, I'm going to indulge myself. Yes, I'm going to do this as an act of self-care.

Yes.

Or whether it's cooking a meal, if you love to cook, and cooking a meal could be self-care. If you hate to cook, up, then go out. Right now, it's the intention that you, that you bring to whatever it is you're doing. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I remember many years ago when I was about 22 or 23, I had heard a story of a, of a woman who was, I think, in Dallas. She had had something happen in her life that was pretty traumatic. And every year on that anniversary, she would just stay inside with the curtains drawn. Not get out of bed and just be, you know, inside of herself. And one year, this is many years after this incident took place, she decided that that wasn't going to be the new narrative. The story that she was telling herself was that she had to stay inside and keep herself protected and all of that. But this next year, she wanted to change the narrative. And so she signed up for skydiving classes And so every year since, she has gone out and she's done a jump out of a plane to create new memories on that anniversary. Wow.

Wow.

And so I have always thought of that as being okay. In early grief, you are just trying to make it to the next day, if not the next hour, sometimes the next minute. But as you start to emerge back into life and reconnect with some, maybe something new, maybe there's something you want to explore, explore it. Maybe there's— maybe you want to create new memories on those anniversaries and holidays that, that bring some new life back into, into your life. And so, and, and, but there's, again, there's no one thing that anybody can be told they should be doing. It's, it's whatever works for them. And so, yeah, you're right.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's— and there's so much— we're gonna have to wrap up pretty soon. There's so much good stuff in your book I really want to talk about. But what can you talk about? Just one of the tools that you mentioned there. I love it. It's the MAPS acronym.

Yes. So the MAPS acronym was actually developed in those days of talking to Zoe's friends. And I was— I didn't know it at the time. But it was, it was the process by which we were actually moving through it. I didn't have a name for it at the time. It was just the actions that I was taking in those early days, cuz it was the only thing I knew how to do. Whether it was gonna work or not, I didn't know. Um, and it wasn't any intention behind it at the time. It was just that, okay, I need to connect with them. I need to ask them how they're doing. I need to make sure that we've got a plan for the next day. Uh, you know, I need to make sure that, that we're all, that they know that we're all in this together and that we're gonna get through it together.. And so when I was writing the book, I wanted to apply this MAPS process to, uh, the questions that I was asking at the time and how I navigated my way through that particular question or struggle or conflict or setback on this journey. And so, um, what the— if I— is it okay with you if I break it down, what, what each step is? Yeah, sure. So the, the The— in the MAPS process, there's 4 steps. M being mindfulness, and that's the practice of acknowledging what you're feeling and not judging your emotions, uh, when you feel them. But you're doing this in the presence of stress or a really stressful situation like grief. A is the approach that you take. It's the practice of actually self-discovering, um, and leaning into your struggles so that you have an open mind and you're curious about what options can emerge for you in this particular struggle. And then there's P, which is predict, and that's the practice of envisioning what your world will look like in reality when you have moved through this particular struggle or this period of time. And then finally, the S is— in the book I call it embrace the suck, but in, in reality it's embracing the struggle. We, we actually grow with struggle. And if we can practice facing that struggle, and even have the courage to continue on, even when you're afraid of the, of the uncertain future, you're— you have a 50% better chance of getting through the worst of grief and moving to that next step. And so this process was something that I wanted to share with anybody who read the book. And so yeah, that's, that's where it came from.

I, you know, it's funny, as you were saying that, and you said you didn't really know it as you're going through it, it wasn't intentional. And it wasn't— I kind of did the same thing. I went through my whole thing. And I, after I wrote my, my, my first book, and I'm working on a second book, whenever that happens, maybe nice. But I was— I still write a lot. But I was like, I came up with an acronym myself. And I'm like, I didn't realize I was even doing it. So So I was like, I'm like, wow, okay, I could put this into an acronym. This is the things that I've been doing. But what I was, as I listened to you say that, what struck me is, we know how to do this better than we think we do. Yeah, we go, when we go into this, we intuitively, you intuitively said, these are the things that are going to work for me. You work through them, and then you systematized it later. Yeah, transfer that knowledge to other people. Yes, your meditation on the train. I mean, there are people that train to do that.

Yes.

But you just leaned into your own internal understanding. You reached out to Zoe, who I think helped you, because I think our loved ones do help us. They do give us thoughts. They do give us inspiration.

Yes.

So I just want to say trust yourself. We know as you're going through this process, trust yourself.

You will.

Yes. And you will, you will move from struggle to strength. You are stronger than you think you are, period. Um, and I think, uh, I don't know if many people give themselves that much credit, and they should. We're human. We are not machines. We are, uh, an element of the human condition is, uh, losing a loved one, death, unfortunately. But it's also a reminder of what's important in our lives.

Yeah, yeah, I love that. Well, I could talk to you all day, but we probably should wrap up, so If you could just tell people like where they can find you, remind people the name of the book. I'm gonna put this in the show notes, but sometimes people are listening when they're walking, so I want people to be able to hear it.

I appreciate that, Brian. Uh, so I'm on Instagram, it's @ericbhodgdon, and, uh, I actually have a gift for your audience. I would like to share with them and give them a free copy of the book, uh, if they're interested. And so, um, I think I provided that link as well, uh, but it's It's a— it's— this is a resource that I just— I, I want to help people to get to their next level of healing. And if the book can provide one nugget, great. If it gives them more, even better. But I just want to get this into somebody's hands and make it as easy as possible for them.

That's awesome. So I'll just read it out. So it's yourjourneyguided.com/freegriefbook.

Yes.

Is that correct?

Okay. Yes, it is.

Yeah.

And I'll definitely put it in the show notes also, but I want people to be able to, like I said, sometimes I'm out walk— I listen to podcasts when I'm walking, so I never, I never see the show notes.

Awesome. Well, I appreciate this, Brian. Fantastic conversation. I agree with you. I could talk with you all day.

Yeah. Yeah. I've really enjoyed it. I do have other questions for you, but I'll bring you back and we'll talk about it because I want to talk about fathers too.

Absolutely.

There are a lot of fathers doing what we're doing. And we, I think we don't know if we get neglected or we neglect ourselves, but we need more fathers.

I agree. I love that. I think that's fantastic. And I appreciate you sharing that.

All right. All right, Eric, have a great rest of your day.

You too, sir. Thank you.

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