Through the Darkness: Charlie Bynar’s Journey from Grief to Unshakable Knowing | EP 457

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi there, and welcome to Grief to Growth. I'm your host, Brian D Smith. And whether you're tuning in for the very first time, or you've been walking this path with me for a while, I want to thank you for being here. Grief to Growth is a space where we tackle life's hardest moments and explore life's biggest questions. Who are we really? Why are we here? Where do we go when we leave this world? And how can we possibly move forward when we've lost the people that we love the most? Well, today's guest is someone whose journey in these questions is not just profound, it's personal, it's raw, and it's deeply moving. Charlie Beiner is an award-winning author and international artist whose work has been featured in prestigious spaces like the Victoria and Albert Museum, Victoria and Albert Museum David Bowie Is exhibit. But it's what she's done since the unimaginable happened that would truly move you. After the loss of her only child, 16-year-old Isaac, Charlie's life was shattered. But out of that darkness came something extraordinary. Charlie founded Isaac's Ant Foundation, installing art exhibits in her son's honor, including the American Museum of Natural History in New York. She wrote a children's book, Charlie and the Rainbow Trout. And now her most powerful work yet is Through the Darkness: A Story of Love from the Other Side, a winner of the 2025 National Indie Excellence Award in the death and dying category. And it's touching hearts all around the world. In today's episode, we'll explore how Charlie went from not believing in an afterlife to receiving unmistakable signs from her son. We'll talk about the dreams, the visitations, the light that turned on when the power was out, and the hawk that flew too close to be coincidence. We'll talk about why Through the Darkness is not just a memoir, but a roadmap for surviving grief, for transforming pain, and for finding purpose again. We'll talk about the soul-stretching lessons Charlie learned about forgiveness, both for those responsible for his son's death and for the man who murdered her aunt. We'll talk about ego, judgment, and fear play into our suffering, and how releasing them can free us. And most important, perhaps most importantly, the enduring bond of love that not even death can sever. So whether you're in the midst of your own grief, questioning what comes next, or just searching for meaning, this conversation is for you. And be sure to continue the conversation with me afterwards at my Substack, grieftogrowth.substack.com. It's a safe space to share, connect, and keep exploring these deeper truths together. And with that, let's step into the light through the darkness with Charlie Beiner.

Thank you for having me on your show, Brian. It's so sweet of you to make time for me today. And that was a lovely introduction. Thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate you being here. I always love talking to fellow Shining Light parents. We're both part of Helping Parents Heal, both having lost children at a young age. So before we get started about the book and everything, I always like to ask parents who have a child on the other side, tell me about your son.

My son Isaac. Well, here's my book, Through the Darkness, and this is Isaac on the COVID And, uh, it was a time when he and I— I took him hiking at Bryce Canyon, and there's these really gorgeous little arches there. And he was just walking through there, and I snapped that shot of him. Oh wow, he was about 6 or 7. Um, in spite of him having a brain injury when at birth, um, due to medical negligence, he was a very insightful soul because his body really didn't reflect his soul because he was so bright for his age, and especially for having a cognitive delay. He would just say things that would blow me away. One example of that was when he was 8, so just a little bit older than the picture of him on the COVID he comes to me and he says, "Hey, Mom, you know, what's the greatest force in nature?" And I'm like, "Hmm." And being scientifically minded, I was I was kind of thinking like, okay, and I said, maybe a supernova. And then I explained, you know, what a supernova was. And then he was like, okay. And then he ran away. And 3 days later, he came back to me and he says, Mom, I have the answer. And, you know, I had lost track of what he was talking about. So I was like, the answer to what? And he says, the greatest force in nature. And I'm like, oh, you have the answer. Please tell me because I'm dying to know. And, he said, "Time, because without time, nothing happens." And, that was such an insightful and actually very abstract thought for a young child to grasp. It's hard for us adults to even grasp time as the greatest force of nature because really time is energy is a potential And without time passing, it's all stationary. So, so time is the greatest force because without it, nothing happens. So he blew me away. Um, even, you know, even when he was just a young kid, I knew he was far more wise than I. Wow.

Wow, that, that is, that is amazing. I, I want to come back to that concept of, of no time or, or time being the greatest force in nature, because that's, that's one that I always ponder. But, um, so he is— I think all of our kids who cross early are— there's something special about them. Every parent I talk to, they're just like the— it's like, like you said, they don't really seem to fit in their body sometimes. The world is just like not ready for them. So tell me about, you know, his transition.

Well, I would certainly agree with you. Like Isaac, I just felt like his time here at C— I mean, I wasn't ready for him to be gone by any stretch of the imagination. Um, and what finally one One of the things that can heal us or help heal us, at least put a little Band-Aid over the wound, I guess, is to know that they were finished here. We might still want them, but I think that realizing that they're— that they are finished here and that they've moved on and they've— so they've like graduated. I think that can kind of help us because when I think of Isaac now, I think of him as like free. Restored to perfect health, and I wouldn't want him here because he was finished. I would, you know, so it would be— so I just think of it that way, and I'm like, I'm so glad he's free. I'm so glad he's, he's good. That's what I want for him. Um, but what was your question?

I was asking you about, about his transition.

Oh, um, gosh, that was really rough. Um, as I had said At birth, he— it was Christmas Eve, and, uh, the— I was in labor for 36 hours. I went in, it started early Christmas Eve, Eve the 23rd, and my midwife— I had a midwife and a doctor— and she said, um, you know, stay home until it reaches every 3, 3 minutes, the contractions. So I did, and then 6:30 that evening I went in because it was at 3 every 3 minutes. And then she said, well, you know, it could be false contractions, and so, um, go home with this med and come back in the morning if it doesn't go away. If you weren't able to sleep, then come back. Which I did. I walked through— I walked the— I paced the floor the entire night, and then I went back in the next morning, and, um, that's when I was admitted the second time. So during— and then he still wasn't delivered until 8 o'clock that evening. And so, but it's what happened was during that labor and delivery, he had the, he, he had the, the cord wrapped around his neck twice and he was being strangled because when you have a rope on top of itself, it compresses itself. And so when the cord is compressed then there's a reduced oxygen supply, but also, and he wasn't able to descend. But after reviewing his medical records, after I got them from the hospital after he passed, I went through all of the records and I found a really telling note that said that when I had went in the day before, when they sent me home, his heart already showed signs of distress. Um, his, his fetal heart monitor was already dipping in a non-reassuring manner, which means the heart isn't coming back up to its normal rate and rhythm after a contraction. And they actually should have delivered him then. That was actually the first sign of fetal heart distress, but they waited for 25 and a half hours, and by then he had already sustained a brain injury, hypoxic brain injury from decreased oxygen. And it caused a brain injury, which then, you know, which then he didn't talk until he was 5. He had learning, severe disabilities, learning disabilities. And then he developed seizures, which are really common with brain injuries. You often get a seizure and he died from a seizure. So all of his struggling, all of his suffering, all of his, and his death, were caused by medical negligence. I did have to prove that with my records in order to actually publish this book, because otherwise it would be a defamation lawsuit, right? Um, so I did prove my case with the medical records in the book and etc., etc. But, uh, once someone dies, you can only argue a wrongful death. You can't argue medical negligence.

Um, and you didn't know this till after his passing, right?

No. Yeah, I had, I had already, I had for long, um, suspected that, that that delivery didn't go right. But, you know, I mean, I'm a first-time mom. I didn't know how labor and delivery goes. I didn't know what to expect. And you're in such misery and agony that you have to trust your doctors and, of course, and your medical team to do what they're supposed to do. But like I said, it was Christmas Eve and And my thought is they were just preoccupied.

Yeah, well, I, I can somewhat relate. Our daughter Shayna, um, my wife was in labor, wasn't nearly that long, it was, but she was, it was induced. And it was, uh, I think they induced her like 8 o'clock in the morning. She wasn't born until like 11 o'clock that evening. And we had the heart, you know, the heart rate dipping and stuff like that. So I know how, how stressful, you know, that, that thing is to go through. So when Isaac did pass, you weren't a believer in the afterlife at that point, right?

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

No, you know, I was really on the fence. And, um, yeah, I think that the book— that I was kind of thinking this the other day, and I thought, you know, the main journey of the book and my, my, myself through that book was that I did start on the fence about the afterlife. I wasn't sure about it, and then I came to know that it was an absolute certain, um, fact. And the way that that journey happens over a course of time is interesting. And yeah, and so my family, the Williams family, which is like 6 generations, which is actually— it's— they're, they're mentioned in the book because when Isaac— my book, um, half, two-thirds of it is— it follows my husband Chris and I as we, um, travel through the course, that journey of right after Isaac dies and to where, um, about for 3 and a half years. But And then my husband got sick 2 and a half years after my son passed, and he got, he got sick with cancer, and then he died like 3 and a half years afterwards also. Yeah. So, um, but as the answer to the question is, I was on the fence about the afterlife, and then, um, many things started to happen. My, my family, that is the generations, um behind my ancestors. Oh, I was saying that two-thirds of the book happens following Chris and I, and then another third of the book is actually from Isaac's perspective and my ancestors from the other side interfacing with what Chris and I were experiencing at the time. Yeah. Which is a— it's called a narrative nonfiction where it reads like fiction, but it's based on fact. And so right after Isaac started dying, after he died, I started receiving messages in my dream. 2 weeks after he crossed, he came to me in a dream, and I couldn't see him or anything like that, but I could hear. But he was right up against my ear, and I heard him whisper, "I miss you," and I could hear his voice. And so, and I was like, I recognized it in my dream. I recognized his voice and it really startled me. And I said, "I miss you too." And then I woke up and then, you know, I got up out of bed and later that day I told my husband that, my husband Chris, and I said, you know, I think I heard Isaac talking to me in my dream. And he's a civil, he was a civil engineer. And so if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist. So I was on the fence, but he was not even approaching the fence. And so he thought I was just kind of going crazy, I think. And then— but the thing is, is I got 4 more. I got a total of 4 dream messages from Isaac. And then just then all these other strange things started happening. And, and then I struggled through getting— first, I wanted to get the medical records from the hospital because I needed to know what happened. I had my suspicions. Always, but I hadn't looked into it that way because for one, I was worried about how it would affect Isaac if I told him, well, by the way, you know, I just didn't know what was the right thing to do and I was trying to safeguard him. But then after he crossed, I fought the hospital for like a year to get his records. They never— they did tell me that they had the fetal heart monitor strips. I mean, after me gouging them for months. And explaining that by Arizona law you have to have records for this amount of time and et cetera, et cetera. And I showed them that. And so I did push them enough to where they finally said, well, we do have all the records and we do have the fetal heart monitor strips, which are— they're not subject to opinion. They're just hard data. But after 11 months. I did get the, the printouts, the hard copies, but they refused to send me the, uh, fetal heart monitor strips, saying that they were source data and that they didn't have to send them to me. So after all that fighting and all that going back and forth— and of course, their behaviors, Val, to me it's very telling, because if you have nothing to hide, then why wouldn't you send somebody their records? But they fought me for 11 months on the fetal heart monitor strips. And then they said, nope, we're not going to send them to you even though we have them. We're not going to send them to you because we don't have to.

Oh, wow. Wow.

Yeah. I mean, isn't that telling?

I, I think so. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and so, but, um, so for 2 and a half years, I was really in a lot of misery, and I was fighting the hospital, and I was fighting all this kind of stuff, and I was just really in a place of pure darkness because I wasn't sure that, um, sure that, you know, Isaac was alive or not. And that's really the thing that us parents who've lost children is we want to know, are they okay? Am I going to see him again? And, you know, or is death just the end of it?

Of course.

And yeah, those are the big questions, right? And so, um, 2 and a half years in By then, my husband Chris had been diagnosed with cancer, a rare cancer that you can't win. It's a fatal cancer. And I was still fighting. We were in a very dark place because we had lost Isaac. We couldn't— we found out their records, we found out the information about the hospital, and then my husband was diagnosed with cancer.

Yeah.

And so I was just really struggling with everything and 2 people, 2 or 3 people kept saying, well, why don't you go see it? I had, um, I had, I had researched all kinds of things like science, all kinds of different kinds of science, quantum mechanics, and this guy named Peter Fenwick who had studied deathbed scenarios for 40 years from King's College. He's really interesting. He says that the brain is actually a filter and it filters out the all. And then so like when you have a near-death experience and you're disconnected from the brain, then you see the all. But then when you're slammed back into your body, then you're back connected to it, that brain, which is a filter. That's what he says. I mean, he's a neuroscientist, so. Yeah, but, you know, so that's kind of interesting. I had— so I had investigated science and religion, but I really just— I still was on the fence. I didn't really get those answers that I was looking for, you know. And so somebody Somebody at work would say, why don't you go see a psychic medium? And I was like, well, I just really hadn't thought of that. I just wasn't in my— I just hadn't thought that. I just hadn't even considered it, really. And then my neighbor Nancy, who's my pet sitter, she was like, hey, Charlie, why don't you go see— I've seen a psychic medium when I was in real trouble, and it really helped me deal with a loss of a friend that I had lost. It might help you too. So anyway, like, people just kept telling me, why don't you go see a psychic? And so I thought, okay, well, maybe, you know, the universe is trying to get my message— you get a message to me or something. It's like, knock, knock, knock. So I thought, well, I've investigated everything else, I don't have anything to lose. But, you know, so I'm definitely one of those people that will try everything. And, um, so I thought, well, I don't know who to go see now because I really want a really reputable psychic medium, um, because I don't want to go down a rabbit hole. And there's, there's a lot of, um, mediums, but they have varying skills. And so in order to do yourself a huge favor, go see a really good psychic medium. Yeah. Um, especially when you're dealing with something that's really dear to your heart, because you don't want to go on a roller coaster ride. Um, so I got two references. One, my first reference was, was with this lady, her name was Tara, down in Sedona. Um, only 45— an hour from my house. And I made an appointment with her. And then my husband Chris, he was put on trial drugs because the chemo had stopped working. And so he flew to Houston, and by then we had got him off the oxygen. I insisted that he call me exactly when he got there. I, you know, I was reluctant to even let him go, but he insisted, um, to go on his own. And so that day I went to go see my sister because, um, she asked me to come visit her, and she is only a couple hours from me. So I went to go see my sister Teresa, who's like a godsend. And, um, she, uh, we were visiting and, uh, she goes, well, why don't you go see, you know, Alison Dubois, uh, the psychic medium from Medium, the TV series? And I had just, I had just watched that. And but I thought, well, that's not based on a real person because that just seemed too incredible for, you know, she holds a piece of paper and she's like, oh, I think the body's going to be you know, I just thought that was like— I didn't think it was real. But she goes, no, she's a real lady. And I was like, wow, can I go see her? And so anyway, I was able to make an appointment with her. And so I was really excited, but I first had scheduled the other medium. So I went to see her because she seemed like a super nice lady and she was just real sweet. And I went and saw her, and the thing that was really complementary between the two mediums were Tara was very kind of big picture oriented, where it was like the challenges that we face in life are kind of designed to— for life lessons, things that we need to learn and experience, and that everything is as it should be, which was a really hard thing for me to even wrap my head around because my husband is really sick, dying of cancer, and my son, who is my only child whom I absolutely adored, You know, so that concept to me was— I had this— I struggled with that for a bit. And sorry. And but she was a super sweet lady. And gosh, I'm sorry, I got something in my throat.

It's okay.

Anyway, so I went to see Tara, and it was a really good reading. One of the things that I loved about her reading was Uh, she had me do this meditation where you lay on your bed after it's all quiet and everybody's got it gone to sleep and everything like that, and you're in a quiet place by yourself. And, um, that's what I did. And then you count backwards in your mind about all the things that you did in the day just to get rid of your— your— get rid of your— out of your mind the day's noise, basically. So you lay down and you quiet yourself. The last thing I did was brush my teeth, and before that I put on my pajamas, and before that I was blah blah blah. You go all the way to the beginning of the day. Now you've cleared the noise, and then you imagine yourself in a garden, and the garden is of your choice. Um, and since Isaac's favorite thing was Japanese, everything Japanese, so My garden was obviously a Japanese garden with bonsai trees and the rock gardens and all that kind of thing. And I look and I'm walking through the garden and one of the key things about the garden is it needs a bridge because the bridge represents where you can meet that person on the other side. And so, I see the little bridge and it's over a koi pond obviously. And there's a little person standing on it. And I was like, oh my gosh, maybe that's Isaac. And so like, I run over to the bridge and, and when I step on it, he faces me and, and I see him and I just run to him and I grab him. I'm like, Isaac! And it was him. And I said, Isaac, you've got to help me. I need, I need to get a message. I need a signal or a sign from you that, that you're okay, that, that it's just going to be a matter of time before I see you. Can you just let me know if you're okay or something? Please send me a sign, something that I will know that's you. And then my cat, Smigs, jumped up onto my chest as I was laying there in bed, and he woke me up. Like, he startled me out of this meditation, right? And so I was like, okay. And then— but I had already asked for the message, the sign. And as I said, then everybody was sleeping. My husband was in the other room, in our room. Because when he had cancer, he was sometimes on oxygen and he was a really restless sleeper. And I was working as a nurse, and so I had to sleep in— I slept in Isaac's room during that time when he was really sick. But so there I was in Isaac's room, um, sleeping. I went to sleep, and then in the middle of the night, I woke up and to this bright light coming into his room, and I was like, what is going on? I And anyway, I couldn't figure it out, so I got up. And the laundry light has a motion sensor, um, so when you walk into the room, it— the light turns on. And anyway, the laundry light was on and it was shining in his room on the bed where I was laying. And I was just like, oh my gosh. And then— and everybody was asleep. I mean, you know, Chris was asleep, the two dogs were asleep. Yeah, cat cat was next to me. That was it. And, um, that became Isaac's go-to, was he would— then after that day, he would often turn the laundry light on, um, several times a day. I would be the only one home in the kitchen and the laundry light would pop on.

Yeah.

Um, my sister saw it many times. She was like, oh my gosh, the light just went on. I'm like, I know, that's just Isaac. You know, anybody else would think, okay, we got a ghost in the house or something like that, but I knew it was Isaac, so I was all happy. And, um, and that was a really incredible sign to receive. And, um, but I was, you know, I still was like, I was super hopeful. But then, um, I went to go see Allison Dubois, who is a world-renowned psychic medium. And that day when I went to go see her, I was a little bit on pins and needles. I was a little anxious because um, because I didn't know if, uh, there was many things that Tara said that made some sense, but, um, I was still— I still wasn't completely convinced yet. And, um, but then when I went to see Alison Dubois that morning, I was really, um, like, I was anxious. And, um, so there I was standing in my closet trying to figure out what I was going to wear because it's just a 2-hour drive from my house. And so I had like a t-shirt on and then I was looking for like a sweatshirt or something else to put on just because that's how I am. And I kept thinking, oh, I'll wear that. And then I was like, no, that's not the right thing to wear. And then I would say, maybe I should wear this. And I just couldn't figure out what to wear. You know, it was like— and then my eyes landed on Isaac's hoodie. And I was like, yeah, well, of course that's the right thing to wear. So I put his hoodie on and it was a generic looking hoodie. It's gray. I mean, you know, it could have been anybody's hoodie, but it was Isaac's hoodie. And I thought, okay, that feels good because it looks like getting a little hug when you wear their clothes. Yeah. And, um, anyway, so that's what I decided to wear. I went, I drove down and Allison's a really sweet lady. She's a She's a, she's a firecracker too, and she's really sweet, and she's really funny also. But anyway, so she put me at ease, um, quickly. And, um, she's, um, the way she works is she has a piece of paper with— and she has a box of very sharp pencils. And, um, so what the thing is, is that reading— I had asked for two different types of readings that day. Um, one was a half-hour session of like life questions, things that are big events in your life that you need to, you know, struggle with, that you're— that you might be struggling with. And then the other was to talk to the person on the other side. And so I thought, okay, I would do both of them. When, when I sat down with her, she explained that it's best to do the life, uh, questions that you have first. And so she said, well, what questions do you have that are big issues in your life right now that you would like me to help you with? And I was like, of course it was Chris, my husband Chris. And then I said, you know, my, my husband's— can you tell me about my husband? That's what I think I said. And she says, okay. And she gets her piece of paper and really sharp pencil and she starts making circles. It's like white noise. And so, and then she'll stop and she writes something down and then more circles and then writing stuff down, notes. And that kind of thing. And then, um, and then she stopped and she said, okay, I need to tell you this right now, is that for one, um, when people are taking care of people that have cancer, it's very draining and it's exhausting to the caregiver and it will zap your energy. And, and I was like, uh-huh. And, um, and then she said, and I, I need to just let you know this for your own sake and that is that it's going to be within 6 months he's going to go, and it's going to come out of nowhere, and it'll happen like that. And then, so you need to make memories now. And at the time, my husband was on the trial drugs, and he was doing pretty good, and he was out skiing or like biking that day. So I was like, I didn't know how much stock to put in what she was saying, right? So I just kind of took it in and then kind of chewed on it a little bit, you know. And, um, so she said, do you have any other questions about Chris? And I said, uh, no, I think that's it, you know. So we covered him, and, and I, you know, I was trying to just deal with what she had explained to me, right? And, uh, and then, and then she says, well, who do you want to connect with on the other side? And I said, my, my son Isaac. And so she said, okay, give me a few minutes. And so she does her thing again and does like for a long time, though, like 4 or 5 minutes straight, just circle, circle, circle, writing, writing, writing. And the first thing— and then she stopped and she goes, the first thing he wants you to know is that you guys were best friends. And And I was like, that's absolutely right. That's exactly what he would say. Because, I mean, we were thick as thieves. I was the kind of mom that I just delighted in, like, picking up, you know, putting a picnic together when he was 3, and I'd put him in my backpack and we would just take off and I'd go spend the whole— I did that every day. I go take him here, there. It was just like his happiness was mine. And so when she said, you know, you guys were best friends, that was absolutely the first thing he would say. And I certainly made me smile.

Yeah.

And, and then she started laughing. And I said, you know what's funny? And she said, he tried to get you to wear his shirt today.

Hmm.

And then I was just like, oh my gosh, I couldn't believe that. Because I just put that— I just put his hoodie, his hoodie on, there was just no way anybody would know such things, right? And then she kept saying one thing after the other, like I have Matching tattoo. She goes, there's matching tattoos. I don't know, I don't know what that means. And then I was like, oh, I rolled up my sleeves and it says forever Isaac there. These little handprints when he was 3 months old. And it was just one thing after the other. She told me that there was only Isaac knew. And one thing that was incredibly powerful that, uh, medium told me was Well, at the time of Isaac's death, that day I had sensed there was something wrong, and I had called Isaac like 3 times. I was on my way home from work, and I had called him and he didn't answer. Then I asked my ex-husband, Isaac's dad, who works just like an hour— I mean, a mile from me. So he can be at my house in like 5 minutes. And I called him and I said, David, you've got to go check on Isaac right now. Go to my house and check on Isaac. I can't get a hold of him. And, and so he did. And he called me back. And meanwhile, I'm driving from Winslow, Arizona, to Flagstaff. It's 45-minute drive. And my heart's racing and I can barely drive. And anyway, he calls me back and he's like, he's gone. He's I found him on the floor. He's, you know, he's not breathing. And he called 911. And, and when the paramedics got there, they, they got a pulse. But, and then they took him to the— the ambulance took him to the hospital. And I was racing into town right at the intersection when I saw the ambulance leave for the hospital and I chased it to the hospital. And, um, during that course, they, you know, tried to do everything that they could do, but they did a CT and it showed that his brain was dead. And, um, so when I knew that that was the case, I was just reeling with trying to figure out, trying to process what was happening. I couldn't— I was so stunned and shocked, I couldn't I couldn't comprehend what was going on, and I couldn't certainly think logically about what to do. And just in my state of misery, Isaac's laying there on the gurney, and he's covered with wires and IVs, and he has a vent in his throat. And I just couldn't really think of what was the right thing to do. So the only thing that I wanted to do was to curl up next to him. And so that's what I did. I, I got in bed and laid next to him with all the IVs all over the place and vent tubes and all that. And, and I laid next to him, and, um, and then about an hour later, I looked up at David and I said, um, are you okay if I just let Isaac go? I don't want him in this state. This is not a good place for him. He needs to go. And, um, and David said yeah. And so I got up and I went to talk to the doctor, and, you know, a couple minutes later he was pronounced dead. Um, the only thing that was keeping him alive was— well, his heart anyway, his brain was not there— but, right, um, was like cardiac meds, and his heart was just pounding. Um, And so then the thing is, is this is where it gets back to the medium. So when I talked to her, she said the thing that when Isaac was in, in the place of in between, he wasn't really quite dead and he wasn't really, you know, he was in that in-between place. He said that he, the thing that he really remembered that, that made his heart feel good was he said he could feel your heart beating next to him. That he could hear, feel that heartbeat. And so how would you just ever know anything like that? There's— that's just illogical to— the only person that would know that is Isaac.

Yeah.

So I walked out of Alison Dubois' meeting knowing that Isaac was alive and well and I would see him again and that he would come and get me. She told me such lovely things about Isaac. She goes, she said, well, first of all, he's like he's, he's genuinely a very bright white light, like what people call an angel, and that he's watching over you and he will always be there. And he's in, and he's really quite capable of helping you with anything that you need. Just ask him. And, um, and that just gave my heart such, like, hope. And I just turned my— it turned my world from black to to very bright again, because at least then I knew Isaac was good.

Yeah.

And that I would see him again.

Yeah.

Which is what we all long for when we lose a child, that we want to know, are they okay? Because their well-being is our number one. And number two, we want to know if we get to see them again.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, those are the two questions. So, uh, Charlie, you, you mentioned earlier that you heard about this concept that everything is okay, everything will be okay. Everything always has been okay. And someone had a near-death experience. Heidi Craig told me that. She's like, that was one thing she picked up on the other side. How do you reconcile that though with a wrongful death, you know, situation? Uh, because a lot of times people, you know, reconciling two things is difficult, you know, the holding someone accountable here and the anger that she must have felt. And so how do you— how did you reconcile those two things?

Well, okay, there's two examples that I, I, um, cover that, that topic in the book. And one was— had to do with Isaac, and that was the wrongful death, um, thing. And then the other one— and because, because honestly, if you're going to, um, argue like forgiveness and judgment and ego and all those things, you might as well have some great big topics. Because if you, you know, the, the, the small things, easy to hit, but can you still apply those ideas to really the big, the big issues, right? And so the big issues in the book for me was Isaac's crossing, and then my Aunt Mabel, who was murdered by a serial killer. So how do you forgive a serial killer, and how do you forgive somebody that killed your only child out of careless hands? And the way that I tackled both of those were slightly different. I mean, they're a little bit the same, but the slightly different Mm-hmm. But basically, I think empathy or taking perspective of their— of that person is, is key. For Isaac, for Isaac, I know that to err is human. That's what they say, right? To err is human. And we have all made mistakes. And lots of times, if we want to have our mistakes be forgiven, then We also have to be able to forgive other people for mistakes, right? Even though there's some mistakes that are kind of mild and mild or small, and then some mistakes are, well, they're deadly.

Right, exactly.

And, um, and so it is, the concept is good and I like the concept because, um, but it's also knowing something and digesting it and being okay with it are two different things, right?

They are.

Yes. And so I'm still working on that a little bit, but for the most part I'm good because also I think that, um, we don't have to be judge and jury here because as you've probably, you know, seen on like lots of people who have had near-death experiences and stuff like that, they often report life reviews. And, um, and so even if they're not held accountable here, they will on their crossing. And so I don't feel like I need to hold them accountable anymore, that it will be done for them. And so I don't have to have that burden of a judge and jury. And I just can let my heart— because when you hold on to hate, it kills, it erodes your soul from the inside out. Holding on to hate is devastating for your own health. And so if you can let it go and process it, one, One, I know that we've all made errors. Two, um, that people that are irresponsible will be held accountable for their actions, and that I can let it go. And that's how I, I dealt with Isaac. Now, my Aunt Mabel's situation was a bit different because she was murdered when she was pretty young, and she had 6 little kids, and the serial killer had, had— well, she— my Aunt Mabel was his first victim. He got 8 years and then he got out. 8 years for like— he drug her from her house. Um, I can't even say it on an inter— you know what he did to her? Yeah, he— she was so, um, dis— he had tied her to the train tracks and let her and And, and then she died. Um, anyway, it was a very brutal murder. And, um, anyway, so how do you go about forgiving something like that, right? That seems like for most people just an unforgivable act. But then again, but then if you, if you— the way I, the way I approach it, I can't say how others should do anything because each of our journeys is unique. But the way I handled that idea was to take that perspective again. And if you understand psychopaths or serial killers, they have psychopathic brains and their impulse control is very down. They have no empathy. They've done PET scans on serial killers, psychopaths, and the empathy zone of the brain is black. It's not firing. So you cannot care if you— if it doesn't work. It's a brain injury that causes from when children are small and, um, and they're either like physically abused or sexually abused or, um, held in a closet, or, um, or pure neglect is also a huge issue with children as they're growing up. But it causes brain problems that you can't fix, and once the empathy zone, um, turns off, it can't turn on. And they get to that place by by— it's out of self-preservation because they are so tortured that, um, that they can't really afford to care about other people. So they can only try to preserve their own beings, and they turn that empathy zone off in the brain. It doesn't fire. And once it's turned off, it doesn't turn back on. Once you can't care, you— it will never work. It's gone forever. And so, um, that's why you get a lot of serial killers or narcissistic people that can't care and are there, they're, they're all about their own indulgence. And that's where he was coming from. He was coming from a very injured person. And so, you know, like, instead of looking at him only as a monster, you look at a small child that grew up in such an unfortunate situation that it made them into a psychopath. Yeah. And, you know, and so if I can see them as a once innocent child, then I can be empathetic towards that person and forgive him on that. But you still hold them accountable for their actions. So you— it's like separating the criminal from the crime. You hold them accountable for the crime, but you can forgive the criminal.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. That was really well put. And I think it's really— you said a lot of really good things in there. One is forgiveness is for ourself, because carrying that hatred around is eating us up from the inside. The other thing is that, um, you know, it comes from a place of being able to put yourself in that other person's position. Ironically, having empathy for someone who doesn't have empathy and, and seeing them as, you know, where, where they came from. So those are some, those are some clues that people can take because most of us have things we're holding on to. We always feel like we're justified, but I've spoken to so many people who have lost someone wrongful death or murder, sexually abused, and they can even forgive that. So the way I look at it, if they can forgive that, then I can forgive somebody who said something, you know, something nasty to me one day, right?

If you can forgive big things, then it makes the little things a lot more palpable, right?

One would hope. Yes, yes, it's something that we all need to learn. One thing I found really fascinating, you know, your book is described as, uh, narrative nonfiction. But as you said, like a third of it takes place kind of in heaven with your, with your relatives. So how did you get that, that information? How did you get that material?

Okay, so a narrative nonfiction is the, the, the parts that are factually based is that everything that happened in the book that, that follows present day time with tracking my husband, my husband Chris and me. That's all factual. Okay, I state, and I state in the very beginning that, but I wanted, because that my book involves my, my son who's crossed over, that I'm giving, I'm providing a space to see how that might be, and how it would interact with what was going on in my real life. And but based on things that I knew about Isaac and my, my, my family, the Williams family on the other side, most of them are over there now. Yeah. So even though that I made up the other side, and it's just called the other side in the book because, you know, to me it doesn't really matter what you call it, heaven, or, you know, there's different religions that all have different names for, for heaven or the other side. And I think it's a little bit more non-denominational, if you will, just to call it the other side. And so That's how I present it and see how those— that perspective from the people that are on the other side. I was trying to get perspective how they might see what was going on in Chris and I's life and how they intersected with our world.

Yeah. Okay. Thanks for explaining that because that was very interesting. I was reading the book and it does— it helps to carry the story forward. And it is interesting to think about like how they perceive things, how they communicate, because we know they communicate with us, um, we, like you said, through dreams and through signs and synchronicities, etc. But yeah, that does add a level of depth to the, to the story, is getting that, that other side.

Yeah. And here's like one of the key things that, um, an example of why that was so important is because in my life I was thinking like As I was reviewing, it's like chapter 14, I'm reviewing Isaac's medical records and it just really sends me into a spiral because I feel so guilty that I wasn't there to save him from a seizure and that I should just kill myself, just suffocate the way he died because that's what I deserved. And so I was going through all the guilt and shame that we toss onto ourselves. Right. And And then so I'm creating all this misery and pain for myself and really having a difficult time with it. And then Isaac's perspective, in a chapter, a few chapters later, and from Isaac's perspective, he, he says, he, he states— and then I got this information from the readings, and this is why I based it, this is why I developed it the way I did or told it the way I did was because it was via some of the things that I learned from those readings, right? And so, but from Isaac's perspective, um, sorry, um, from Isaac's perspective, he, um, he was like, you know, I had to— I could have— one of my exit times could have been when I was 14, um, when I started having seizures, but I tried to stay around as long as I could for my mom's sake, because I couldn't do that to her. But then by the time I was 16, I ran out of borrowed time, and my time was up. And so I didn't want to die in her arms. I needed to die in the middle of the day when she wasn't there so she wouldn't save me, because I needed to go. And so see how the different perspectives? Yeah, which things— it makes all the difference. And the perspective makes all the difference.

It's all, it's all about perspective. And I, I thank you for bringing that up because so many people, again, I think especially parents but also spouses, etc., we blame ourselves for our loved ones crossing. I, I should have done better, you know, and I should have— when I went into the hospital, I should have insisted that on a C-section, or I should have, you know, found this medication, or I should have been there, you know, all, all these things we tell ourselves from our human perspective, which is our ego talking and our wanting to have a sense of control. Whereas from the other side, everything I've ever heard, anybody's ever come through a medium, is like, I, I don't blame you, this was my time. And it's not a punishment to die. It's the other thing I— it's really important for us to understand that dying is not punishment. So when our children leave at 15 or 16, it's not because, you know, their time has been cut short or anything. That's That's the fullness of their life here. But their life continues. And that's, that's one of the great things about your book is like, because a lot of times we can't imagine, like what the other side is like, you know, we just think they're gone into the ether, you know, and even if we believe that we, we survive death, we survive bodily death, we don't have a real— a lot of times we don't have a really good picture of it. I remember talking to someone once about their lifelong devout Christian about heaven. And they're like, well, it's streets of gold and rivers of milk and honey. And they're like, I don't like gold. And I don't like milk. And I don't like honey. So I don't want to go there. And I'm like, go ahead.

So Alison Dubois, her, her idea about heaven is that the person on the other side, they get to make up their own heaven, it is their heaven.

Right, right.

So whatever their heaven might be is up to them. So if, if your heaven is like going on to the beach or whatever, things that we can't imagine, but it's up to that individual what their version of heaven is, right? It's their version, not us, right? But then, but as you were saying, so all those, those perspectives, and then when you know that the child crossed at their right time, at their correct time, even if it's 15 or 16, even if, even though it was under very difficult things. But that it is— all things are as they should be. It really does come down to that. Because it was Isaac's right time to go. Was it going to be hurtful to me? Was it going to be painful to me? Yes. But this is about Isaac, not about me. Yeah, it's about him being ready to go.

Very important. Very, very important. Because as parents, a lot of times we feel like I don't mean it's a negative way, but like we own our children, like they belong to us, and we forget they have their own life plan. And even a spouse— I've been talking to a lot of people, you know, lately who have lost a spouse. And, you know, I was talking to one person, said, well, I think their passing was punishment for me. And I'm like, that doesn't make any sense. No, it's not punishment for you. It's their time. And And again, that's not really— it's not a punishment for anybody. But you said something earlier I found really fascinating, you know, when Isaac was very, very little, saying the most powerful force in the universe is time. Because I hear so many people saying there is no time on the other side. And my friend Kelvin Chen argues that's not possible, because without time, there would be no change. Time is a measurement of, of change. So when— what is your thought now about time on the other side? Have you gotten anything from Isaac, or what are your thoughts on time?

Well, I had a fun, um, I had a, um, a fun little, uh, debate with myself, and I wrote it in the book, really, um, about— well, with Robert Lanza. He is a He was like considered one of the most top 100 influential people in by New York Times, or I can't remember who, it's some, you know, several years back. And because he wrote this book called Biocentrism, and, um, and it was about how— I mean, he's a hard scientist, really progressive scientist, but he argues that, um, about the afterlife and that, um, that we— that there is— he argues about the idea of the multiverse. And so with the multiverse, there is really no time. See, on Earth, it's all linear. It's like this, this, this, and this. But perhaps on the other side, or when you're— when you die, that it's nonlinear. And so the past and the present and the future can— there's— they can all be mixed up in a multiverse and all be happening all at the same time. And that all those events, all those what Robert Lanza calls now moments, they all exist all the time and forever will. You can't erase them. Um, and that at the time of death, we go from here to just another now moment. And so there's also, there's this, um, theory in— it's not a new theory at all, but, um, that time is actually a sequence of, of now moments, of moments, ting ting ting, that there isn't actually— it's not a fluid thing. Like, you know, the pictures of a stop-motion picture, they're actually just frames, right? Ting-ting. But when you see them quickly in sequence, they look as though they're moving, but they're really just still frames.

Right.

And so those now moments, that's what he calls them, is that they're all just stills in our— and that they all exist all the time.

That makes, that makes sense. It's one of those things I, I am still wrestling with because, you know, my brain can't imagine no time or everything being concurrent or whatever. So it's one of those things that's kind of fun to kind of play around with as a concept, right?

We're never going to have, we're never going to have the language or the concepts to be able to explain what we can't explain, but we can try. And it helps us, it helps us in that we can say, okay, well, it would be sort of like this, or, but we can't ever really, like, we're always going in a direction, but we won't meet that destination until we're over there, and then, then we will know.

Well, what helped me, I read a book, it's an old book, but it helped me a lot, called Flatlanders. Um, and it's about the concept of these people that live in a two-dimensional, uh, world. So basically, like, imagine living on a sheet of paper. And so whenever they try, someone from the 3D world kind of comes in and tries to explain to them that there's a third dimension, They, they say, like, do you mean north? And it's like, well, no, not north. Well, you must mean south. And they're like, no, just think of going the other way, you know, not north or south. They're like, there is no other way, right?

For them, they can't comprehend it, right?

And, and they talk about how a 3D, uh, a 3D creature would interact with it in a two-dimensional world. And then he goes down even like a one-dimensional world, what that would be like. So we can't— the thing is, we can't understand the level above us. We can understand the level beneath us. So stepping down into that, that really helped me to understand, like, okay, it's just beyond what I can— it's beyond what I can understand.

Right. But we can kind of theorize, and it kind of helps us sometimes. But— and then, like, um, you know, the, the concept of the brain as a filter, I think, is a really interesting one too, because, because sometimes— so let's imagine the brain is a filter. So it's like putting on a hat.. And so when you put on your hat, you can't see the whole, the everything that's out there beyond this. What would be on the other side? We can't see that because we have our hats on. But what if the hat had a couple of little holes in it and you got little teeny glimpses because maybe your brain filter wasn't working quite right? And sometimes we get these little insights to things that we maybe not are supposed to. And that is some ideas about some people that were maybe schizophrenic, where they hear a voice or they see things or things like that.

Yeah, I've often wondered if people that are schizophrenic are actually in touch with the other side.

Yeah, because maybe this hat that they have, that their hat that they put on, has little different things going on.

Or kids that are autistic.

Yeah, exactly. And so, um, um, a book called Slaughterhouse-Five by Kurt Vonnegut He was actually schizophrenic, and he writes about the other side. But for him, it was, um, he, his, his concept of it was like he had this character, um, Billy Pilgrim, who went to Trafalgar. And it turned in Trafalgar, um, they, he said that it was like a multiverse. It was a multiverse. And so that everything was happening all the time, and that that all the now moments in your life— you could see that a person was, for the most part, if you looked at all of their now moments, lots of them were really good. But at the time of death, they just looked kind of bad. But then they would go to another now moment, and then they were totally fine. And so they didn't really make a big deal about dying because it was a very small piece of their bigger story. And anyway, it's, it's kind of interesting about the concept of a brain as a filter. And our actual brain does filter out lots of stuff. Absolutely. It's called the reticular formation. And because our brain is bombarded, our senses are bombarded with lots of noise that would confuse us unless our brain filtered it out. And so, when you're sleeping and you hear the refrigerator turn on, you go, in your mind, you say, "Oh, that's just the refrigerator. I don't need to wake up for that." But, if it's a little mouse that crawls across the floor and squeaks, then you wake up. Because that's a new thing that you don't know. And so your brain tells you to wake up because that's— it doesn't recognize it. And so that's one of the ways that the brain works, is filtering out nonsense or, um, unhelpful stimuli. But what if your whole brain was a filter, right?

Oh yeah, I believe the brain is both. Yeah, it's a filter and a receiver. So exactly, it receives our consciousness and it also filters, you know. Well, we know this, we know that we are— I forgot how many gigabits of information we take in every second, and we process like a few megabytes of it or a few kilobytes of it, because the brain says 99% of this I don't need. So we don't think about the fact that, like, right now there's probably a car driving down the street, but I— my brain says, well, I don't need to pay attention to that.

So that makes it out.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. And the thing is that with the near-death experiences like that, they all say that, you know, they were above their body and they could see everything, and then when get connected back into the body, then, then that limitation comes right back down.

Right.

And so that's just kind of interesting concept, huh?

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Charlie, we're coming to the end of our time. But I want to talk about Isaac's Foundation before we end, because a lot of times people, when they lose someone, they're like, I want to do something to honor them. I want to do something to, to carry, to make sure that they're not forgotten, even though we're not going to forget them. And, you know, people are like, you know, we think about some typical things. Ant Foundation is a really interesting one. So tell people about the Ant Foundation.

Well, Isaac, when he crossed and I was trying to figure out what to do to honor him, my sister Teresa said, why don't you do something with the ants? Because it was a routine thing for me to come home and Isaac would tell Chris and I, you know, some amazing fact about ants, like a queen ant can live to 28 and 3/4 of a year. That's the oldest recorded ant. And, or that they're a superorganism. There's no one ant in charge, that they use maths to navigate the desert. I mean, the more you learn, the more amazing they really are. And so I thought, okay, well, I guess, yeah, I took Teresa's advice and I, my husband and I started, we collected some honeypot ants from the desert near here and we grew the colonies. And then started installing them at museums and insectariums across the nation. And I don't know how I pulled it off. I'm sure it was Isaac's help, was that now one of my colonies that's 8 years old this summer is installed at the American Museum of Natural History in New York City. Next to Central Park, which is, you know, a world premiere museum. And I don't know how that all came to be. I was a complete rookie. I'm not an entomologist, you know, I was just a mom caring about her son. But on my website, you can learn a lot about Isaac's Ant Foundation. There is an Isaac's Ant Foundation website, but then there's also my website under charliebenard.com, and it has resources for bereaved parents for different ways to honor loved ones, and, um, and also resource pages for those if they are curious about different, um, uh, research about the afterlife, whether it's scientific or all the different various things that I had come across. And I thought that would be helpful. Yeah, but one thing that would help parents that helped me is that when we're grieving and we get stuck in our mind and it's just over and over in this is to do something constructive with our hands. Because when we— it's a— it makes a good way, a constructive way for us to process grief if we can work in their name so that we don't do things that we don't fall prey to, you know, make that— make poor decisions. It's better to do something constructive. And, um, so I found that a very constructive way for me to work through that grief.

Yeah, I love that. I think we're all at heart creators. And, you know, people might say, well, I'm not— I'm not artistic, or I don't play music, but we we all, we all have this thing about creating, you know, developing something. And I think it was just because we, we come from a creator. So finding something that we can create, even if it's an ant foundation, is a very constructive way to channel that, the energy that we're getting from grief, and to carry on the legacy for a loved one. So I appreciate you sharing that. And I want to tell people, you know, the book is not just a typical memoir, which memoirs are, to me, is so fascinating. But I love the way you weave in the the narrative fiction along with that and take us along in your journey and offer us some really practical advice. You know, we find ourselves in this situation. It's not just, you know, I always look at it like we can learn from our own stories or we can learn from other people's stories. And one of the great things about human beings is we can learn from other people's stories. And you put a lot of, a lot of wisdom into this book that people can take away.

Well, thank you so much. That's very kind of you. I wrote it, one of the main reasons was to help other parents, you know, or grieving people that were grieving the loss of one of loved ones, but especially parents having lost a child. I just knew how dark and painful that journey is. And so I wanted to help others. And when I went and saw Alison Dubois, she said, she said, you know, you and Isaac could write a book together. And at the time when she said that, I was like, what, you know, I mean, Isaac's on the other side. But, um, anyway, you know, 4 years later, here's the book. And, um, she said that he was kind of like a counselor soul, that he would help others if he was here, and that since he wasn't here to do it, she, she said that you— I would do it for him.

Yeah, yeah.

And so, you know, it's kind of like, um, just heeding the call, I guess. Um, So that's— I didn't know I had a book in me.

Yeah, I think, I think a lot of us don't until, until it comes out. Well, Charlie, uh, to remind people, the name of the book is Out of the Darkness. Nope, it's, um, I get it wrong.

Through the Darkness: A Story of Love from the Other Side. Yeah, and right now you can read it for free if you want at booksirens.com.

Oh, okay.

It's a way for, um, me to get reviews on Amazon, which is nice because it helps people, but then it allows readers to read it for free. Or of course you can read it, um, you can get it on paperback on Amazon or other retailers. It's also available as an ebook and Audible.

Okay, awesome. And Charlie, also remind people of your website.

It's charliebenard.com, C-H-A-R-L-I-E-B-Y nar.com.

All right, Charlie, thanks so much for being here today. Thanks for, for, uh, help introduce— introducing us to Isaac and the rest of your family. And, uh, have a great afternoon.

Thank you so much. And just remember, our time on Earth is just one little page in a never-ending story.

Absolutely. Great way to end. Thanks, Charlie.

Thank you so much.

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