Transformation From Grief- How Adversity Helps Us Grow- with Matthew Brackett

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Hey everybody, this is Brian. Welcome back to another enlightening episode of the Grief to Growth podcast where we talk about the transformative journey of the human spirit. As I said, I'm your host, Brian D Smith. Today we have an extraordinary guest. Whose life experiences echo the essence of transformation, of resilience, and of compassion. Uh, please welcome Matthew Brackett. He's an executive leadership coach, a diversity and inclusion trainer, and a resiliency expert and advisor. His journey began in the small, closely knit communities in New England, in a New England town, and propelled him to international service in various forms. He's lived all over the world and done some really fascinating things. Matthew comes from a large family of 13, which is a household that served as the initial classroom for his, for his life's wisdom. Today, we're going to touch on many topics. Some of the things I want to explore with him are the cornerstones that give our lives shape and depth, how change and crisis are integral to our human journey, the transformative power of pain, and the value of sharing your experience lifts others up. We'll talk, we'll explore Matthew's insights in navigating the complex territories of self-hatred, and depression. I will discuss the importance of practicing compassion and empathy in a world that often lacks both. Uh, for if you're finding yourself standing at the crossroads of indecision, or we often call sliding, or what Matthew calls sliding, not deciding, we're going to talk about that. We're going to talk about why self-awareness and emotional intelligence can be your compass. And if you've ever wondered about the, the purpose of life's challenges and crisis, today I think we'll offer you some insight into that. Matthew has served in various capacities, first in religious ministry in countries like Italy, Ireland, England, Colombia, Chile, and Mexico. And later, he was a staff officer and chaplain in the US Navy. So he brings a rich tapestry, tapestry of experiences to our conversation today. And his life's mission has been steeped in the commitment to facilitate human development and growth. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth Matthew Brackett.

Thank you very much, Brian D Smith. Great. So great to be here to talk about all these different topics, very, you know, topics that are part and parcel of our human experience. But oftentimes difficult to talk about.

So yeah, that's, that's kind of what we do here. We don't, we don't cover the easy stuff. We like to jump right in and talk about the things that shape our lives. So my first question for you, you came from a small town in New England, and now you're an international figure. In leadership coaching and resilience. So was there a pivotal moment that set you on this path or to explore pain and grief?

Oh, well, there's, there's some lot there in that question. Yeah, small town New England, as you mentioned. And I appreciate that you mentioned that my family was the first classroom, right, where you learn about life and being a big family, a large family, learn about generosity, about service, about sharing, about about community. And then I suppose why I went into— as I look back on my story, why I went into formal ministry, I think part of it was looking for something, but part of it was also running away from other stuff. Probably not the greatest motivations to do what I did, but they were what they were. And I don't regret it. It's brought me to who I am now. But I think part of it was, you know, running away from small town New England from, you know, I just, and where I just probably didn't find myself. And growing up, it is, I suppose, growing up in a large family, you can get a little bit lost in the mix unintentionally. But this is just, that's sort of what my experience was. So it was sort of, then I went on a journey of, I got to find myself and I wanted to do something important. You know, growing up in a faith-based family and I wanted to do something transcendental, something that had a lasting impression, not only in time, but also in eternity, right? I wanted to do something meaningful for people and to serve. I know that's something that you talk about in some of your podcasts, is really to the beauty of service and generosity and giving. And I suppose that's what led me then to formal ministry. And then after a period of, after a few decades realizing that it wasn't the right place, some people like, well, it took you a long time to figure that out. But anyway, I guess we live our life to the answers. And I I suppose there were years when I didn't, I resisted, I didn't want to, you know, look at the obvious, maybe. And so I just tried to make it work. And so that led me to, I mean, going back to your question about why do I do, I do what I do now because I'm very passionate about the human person. I'm passionate and in love with the beautiful complexities of our human experience. And why leadership? Because leadership, the use of leadership, the use of authority, the use of power, the use of influence will always, always has been and will always be part of our human experience. And when it's done in a healthy, wholesome way, it's very life-giving. And when it's done in an unhealthy way or, or a dysfunctional way, it can be, it can be very destructive to who we are as human beings. And when that happens in faith-based organizations, or when that happens in family, the destruction touches deeper fibers of us, of who we are as human beings. So it's part of the human experience. And I think, I think there's a— we're always, as human beings, we're always going through crisis. So there's a crisis of leadership and crisis of authority in around at least the Western world. I can't speak to other parts of the world. And, and I think there's just so much to do. And when I speak about leadership, I speak about this holistic approach, sort of how first and foremost, how I lead myself. And this is sort of where our topic fits in. And then how I lead in my inner circles of influence, whether it be relationships, family, and then how I lead in professional, professionally, and how I lead in organizational contexts. All of those have sort of different aspects, the sort of different perspectives of what leadership is. So that's why I do what I do. That's the approach. And why grief? I think part of it is I've walked— I've been really fortunate not fortunate to see people go through grief, but fortunate to be invited into that sacred space of people's lives, of people's pain. When we're in ministry, we oftentimes, we share the highest highs and the lowest lows. And so to step into that space, to walk with those, to walk with many people was a very meaningful place to be. And to experience our human sensitivity, fragility, and, you know, and all the things that— everything that we can go through when we go through grief. And then in my own personal life, I can't say that I've had very significant losses as regards to, you know, as regards death. So oftentimes we think about grief, we think about death, but as we'll get into, there's so many other types of losses that we can go through as human beings, and the process ends up being very similar because Whatever it is, something was ripped away from us, or we slowly lost something, and it leaves a hole, a wound, or whatever we want to call it. So then how do we reconcile? How do we integrate without covering that up? And how do we honor that hole or that space or that wound and, and find meaning in continuing to go forward? That's the great challenge in all this. So in my own, in my own personal life, one of the, I suppose one of the losses was, was going through what I go as taking, having to confront my life and make the decision around leaving ministry. Because there's a whole thing around identity, around expectations, around the way I thought and sort of hoped things would be, and where that is no longer that is no longer there. And I have to recalibrate, reconsider, and put everything on the table and make decisions that are very difficult. And there's losses that come with that decision. Of course, there's always so many gains as well. And that's why I don't regret where I'm at and the decisions that I've made. Maybe I have some regrets around how I— some decisions I made going through life, but who doesn't have those, right? But making, trying to our best to make it all right, and to— and then it makes sense, and to make it meaningful. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief— most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. I would imagine, you know, as you said, I love you talked about the fact that grief isn't only around death, it's around any type of loss. And some people might be going, well, is it really a loss if you, if you made the decision to leave the ministry, right? This was your choice. But there's still, as you said, there's that, the giving up of the identity. And I think especially in something like a, like a ministry where you feel like it's a calling, so I can imagine that was a painful process for you.

Yes, definitely. It's, I think it's a loss of identity. You know, identity is really important for us as human beings. And oftentimes, naturally, we look for identity outside of us. Not the most, not the healthiest way to find our identity, but something that we do as human beings. You know, and I became part of organizations that had a very strong identity, you know, and, you know, where you wear a uniform, whether it be in the Navy or whether it be in priesthood. You know, and so, and then you have titles and there's very clear hierarchy. And so that becomes a place we find security in that. But then when, when that's taken away, we're left sort of swirling and trying to figure things out, you know. And sometimes that's grief. The one way of explaining grief is the unfinished hurt that is swirling around in the spirit. You know, in trying to understand it better, make sense of it, and really to discover ourselves in the process. And, you know, when we face pain, when we face crisis, when we face grief, oftentimes we want to silence the pain because pain is not comfortable for us as human beings. So there's something in us that we know that, you know, pain is sort of the pain and discomfort. We know that, you know, no pain, no gain, whatever, whatever, you know, all those different phrases. That, you know, we go to the gym, we experience pain, but because there's a goal, you know. So pain is something that is hard for us, sort of like that. It's just a conflictive sort of topic for us human beings where we, we know it's important and that there's so much value in it, so much wisdom in it, but at the same time we don't like it, and so we try to avoid it. And that can happen oftentimes with grief. And I think I did that, having to face my own decisions. I shut I shut that down, that part down for a while, because I didn't want to have to make those difficult decisions.

Sure, sure. I, so I can, being in the, being in a faith-based organization, being in, being in the ministry, being the priesthood, being a chaplain, and seeing people go through pain, you must have gotten this question thousands of times. Why? Why would God allow this? Why did this happen to me? How do you answer that question?

Yes, the perennial problem of pain. So many people have written about it, you know, going back to just the ancient authors of Greece and Rome and all that. So, and it's just gone on, it's sort of, and it's the problem that every generation asks itself. And whether it be from the human perspective or the, you know, in the faith perspective, why, if you know, all this thing, if God is so good, so There's a few ways that I answer it, and I do want to begin saying this is a phrase that I really want to knock this out early on in this conversation. There's a phrase that says everything happens for a reason, which, you know, in working with the Marines and, you know, the sort of all these free, very easy phrases that we use that when we go deeper or when we use them in the wrong moments, they're very offensive or hurtful. I mean, right, not everything happens for a reason, right? Or a lot of things can happen for very, just very bad reasons, or, you know, bad or poor decisions of others. And I'll get to the answering your question in a second. But I think that the challenge of us, and I think that in the beauty of the human spirit, is that we will never be able to say that this thing happened for a reason, but we can find the reason to keep on going. And we can find meaning in overcoming what has happened or in integrating or in reconciling or in allowing that to offer me some momentum to get to a new place in life. But we have to be very careful. And, you know, just using that phrase with people as a sort of a, as a very lazy consolation, consolation phrase. Every day. No, not, you can't, you can't say that to someone that's lost a loved one in an accident, you know, got hit by a drunk driver, killed by a drunk driver. Can't say that someone who's been abused, either emotionally, psychologically, sexually. You can't say that, you know, sitting with a Marine who's lost his brother, you know, in a gang fight, you know, when he was holding his brother as he had gotten shot and he dies in his arms. You can't say that everything happens for a reason. But the greatness of the human spirit is to find reason to keep going, you know. And I think in your story, If you have a daughter, you know, and that is no longer with you, but you speak about her in the present because she is with you. But again, it's— we can't say that all that happens for a reason when you go through that. But then, but to find meaning and purpose in the tragedy is, I think, something very beautiful in the human spirit. No, no, no, let's get back to your answering your question. So how do I answer that question about God? You know, if God is so good, why do bad things happen to good people? Or the problem of pain. The way I look at it is, first of all, it's a very oversimplification, right? God gave all of us the gift of free will. He gave us intelligence and he gave us free will. And we can use that free will for good and also for bad. And it's, I think, the greatness and the beauty of the human spirit is that a human that freely decides to love and to do good. Something so beautiful. If we didn't have free will, we couldn't do that. Now, what's the downside? What's the shadow side of having free will? Is that we suffer the consequences of bad decisions or evil decisions of others, of a very bad use of free will of others. And so we can say, well, if God is almighty and God is all-powerful, why doesn't he— well, because precisely because, yes, he is God, but that would take away our free will if God, you know, inserted himself in the way, you know, he created laws of nature. God created laws of the universe. God created laws that we have as human beings. And so God is respectful, and we, I think we want to have a God that is very respectful of us, you know, respectful of our space, and that God won't interject himself. And so that's how I— so it's really not— it's not that God allows or sends us pain, or that God allows us intentionally to go through pain. God allows us to exercise our free human will for so many wonderful, great things. But sadly, we also use it in a very poor and destructive way.. And we have to benefit from the goodness and suffer the consequences from the bad.

Yeah, and I didn't mean to put you on the spot with that question. But it's one that we, you know, we get when people come to us when they're in grief and they're in pain. And often, that's the point where people's faith fails them, frankly, they're because they've been taught this very simplistic view of God, God's like the Santa Claus God. If you do good things, then God gives you good things. And if you do bad things, and God gives gives you bad things, but what happens when I do good things and then bad things happen? That, that doesn't line up with that, with that type of faith.

Yes. And then when something bad happens, of course you have a great— there's anger, there's a rejection. And then the, the very negative side of teaching faith like that, it's overly simplistic, as you well said, right? And it doesn't really serve people in the long run and of the bigger picture of life, because then something bad happens and you don't know how, what to do with it. And then it creates anger, it creates rejection of God. And how many people— this is often spoken about about how many people, because of just the poor way we teach our faith, how many people have rejected God. In other words, the opposite of what we look for in organized religion. We've, by poorly, poorly managed, you know, the teaching of faith and the dealing with people, we've created the opposite reaction that really we're looking for. And that's, that's tragic. That's very sad.

It is, it is very sad. And, you know, and speaking of religion, and we're kind of going off of what we were planning to talk about today, but I think it's really important, you know, this time we're going through, we're recording this in October of 2023, when Hamas is just in the name of religion attacked and, and murdered and tortured and unspeakable things to Jews. And we see— I saw someone post the other day, the Holy Land is supposed to be peaceful, and it's the most violent place on earth.

Right?

So it's really hard to reconcile that with what we teach God's supposed to be.

It is. And when people look at that, when people look at so much violence in the name of religion, and so much harm, you know, whether it be in any type of denomination, and creates a lot of conflict in the human mind, like, wait, this is a huge contradiction, this is not making sense. And that's why I think nowadays, in the younger generations, there's a huge rejection towards organized religion. You know, and there's this typical phrase a lot of people use, I'm spiritual but not religious. I mean, I use the words interchangeably. For me, I think the human person is, anthropologically, we are religious beings. In other words, we tend towards something bigger than us, where we are transcendent beings. And so I think that people use them, but I think we are religious and we are spiritual. And I use those two words interchangeably, because there's something in us that longs for something more that's transcendent. And but then there's a rejection towards organized religion, being because of the contradictions and hurt and harm that is found in organization, in organizations. It's the human side. But it's— but again, it's sad because it doesn't reflect good on really the truth of who God is.

Yeah, well, you know, the distinction you made, or you said you use the words interchangeably, and I think what people are saying when they say I'm spiritual but not religious is they are rejecting that, as you said, that organized aspect of it, that, that, that aspect of that divides us, that says that, you know, Muslims and Jews, you know, should hate each other, which is just the most ridiculous thing ever, and goes so much against, you know, what, what God is. And I was, I was just on a board the other day, and we were talking about religion. And someone said, okay, when people have near-death experiences, or what, what, what is the one true religion? You know, people always want to know what's the right one. And I made the comment, well, Jesus wasn't a Christian, or, you know, or a Muslim, or, you know, and this guy goes, oh, Jesus was a Muslim. And I'm like, okay, so 500 years before, you know, before Muhammad, Jesus was a Muslim. But it's, it's really interesting how we, we tend to divide ourselves up over a concept that should bring us together.

We do. As human beings, we want a sense of belonging. You know, and then there's something in our psychology, human beings, that when we become part of something, then we want to like a tight-knit group. And so it's like it's us against them. Yeah.

Yeah.

And that happens. Sadly, that happens. And then there's a lot of any religious group has, has extreme, has some extreme tendency, you know, some extreme party or group that goes to the extreme. And we see this in Islam. We see this in the Jews. We see this in Catholics. And a lot of Christian, you know, you said you were part of a fundamentalist group. So We see it everywhere. And it's hard. And sadly, I think it has its roots in, obviously, in ideologies, but also has its roots in some charismatic figures. And this is where we get into one aspect of leadership is the certain human beings. And it's so interesting that have this, I don't know, it's sort of this magnetism, right? There's this sort of charisma about them. And it just brings people toward them, and then, and they use it in a very harmful way. But charisma oftentimes— I don't say always, but oftentimes, if not kept in check, it's oftentimes it's linked to some sort of personality disorder. And that's why it's dangerous when you— because when you have charisma, then, and then people give you so much power, you know, in these extreme groups, and then that power is used essentially eventually against you. Psychologically, mentally, spiritually, sometimes sexually.

So yeah, that, that's really interesting observation, you know, because it does seem like a lot of times these, you know, it's— I guess it's a chicken or egg thing. I'm thinking about it. It's like, do they rise that level because they have a personality disorder, or is it because of the attention that they get and the power that, that, that corrupts them? Or, you know, and You know, why are people attracted to that? It's, it's, um, it's really interesting. It's very fascinating to me.

It is. That's probably a topic for another day.

But yeah, so when it comes to, to leadership, I mean, do you help people recognize that in themselves and keep it in check? Because it is a problem, I think, in, in all kinds of organizations. And we mentioned earlier, it's not just political, it's, it's in, it's in corporations, it's in families even.

It is. Yeah, it's in families, it's in corporations and organizations, it's in every— it's everywhere because it's part of just who we are as humans. And now this, I'm not— yeah, you tell me how much we want to go into that. I think, um, good, just a simple answer. Um, and can you, can you rephrase the question?

Well, I'm thinking, you know, as, as we, as we come into leadership roles Right. How do we, how do we recognize that in ourselves, keep ourselves in check? I think about even in the church, you know, in the church, not, not my particular church, but in the church, a lot of times pastors, right, if they go crazy.

Yes. So I think keeping it in check, sadly, I think people that have these tendencies are not interested or disposed to work on themselves. Hmm. So that's, that's the sad thing because again, it is about creating this awareness, right? And a lot of the work that I do around— there's two types of service, you know, we're on individual coaching, accompaniment is just so powerful because, you know, forces people to slow down in their life and to pay attention to what's going on inside, to pay attention to intentions, to pay attention to motivations, to pay attention to values, to needs, all these other things, you know, and to shed light on a lot of the blind spots. And so that's one. And then the other thing is offering conferences, workshops, things that help, you know, in a group setting to also offer education and to create areas of personal reflection around some of these things. And sadly, when people, you know, people that are— might have these some sort of personality disorders, you know, and charisma and power all linked together, might not—

they—

there's a lot of blindness. And so they— and, and I think an inability and unwillingness to look at certain things. So, yeah, not much you can do. But it's interesting, as you said, how people like that, um, gain so much power and are given so much power by human beings. It's— I think we, we all look for people to look up to. And we look for people to lead us in a meaningful direction. And so, and that's, I think that's why this happens. And we get easily, it can get wrapped up into someone's, into that, that net, that web.

Yeah.

Because it looks, it's always painted as a good thing.

Yeah, we, well, you're right, we, we tend to want to put our power in someone that says they're going to take care of us. You know, someone's gonna— they're gonna be our savior, for lack of a better word. Um, so we, we give our authority away. I do want to kind of switch gears, go back to— because you, you mentioned in your bio, we talked about a little bit, you grew up in a family of 13, uh, in a small town, I guess. What was that like? And how does— how does your role in that family organization— how does that— how does that shape who you are?

I was the 10th of 13. We've since, both of my parents have died. My mother died in 2013. My dad died in 2021. So being the 10th, you know, being on the younger side, but you know, you get, you're raised by your older siblings in certain ways, right? And it's, I think it's just, it becomes community. It becomes our home was, and my parents were very intentional about making our home a place, sort of a playground. A discovery land. You know, they got a few acres and had a house and bought animals. And their idea was, let's make this a place where all of our— your relatives and friends want to come, rather than our children always looking elsewhere to find the entertainment and where to spend their time. We also worked from a very young age. And back in those days, that was just the normal thing to do, you know. At 8 or 9, my mother, you know, got us jobs at strawberry fields or at orchards or wherever, also cutting grass, shoveling snow, all the normal stuff, teaching us to, again, as you said, as a school, as a classroom, to learn about life, learn work ethic, learn responsibility. And my parents got animals, not because we really had a farm or lived on a farm, but it was all about teaching the children how to be responsible. And to take care of things. And, you know, and so it was, you know, early morning before going to school, walking through the snow, changing the water for the chickens, you know, bringing in the ice to frost everything and filling it with fresh water and bringing it out, and then doing the same thing in the afternoon after school during the winter. You know, all that was just part of— my parents were very intentional about what they were trying to do with us. So there's a great beauty in that. And we never lacked anything, but we also never had any luxuries, you know, no trips or vacations or things like that. It was, I think, I suppose the downside, if we're going to talk about it, is every big family is different and every personality is different. So I think sometimes people maybe get, feel like you're getting lost in the mix. And my parents, you know, grew up in the Depression and also grew up in families where they didn't receive a lot of affection. And the, you know, the emotional side, I think generations have changed as regards emotions and all that, you know, parents are very distant. And I think we experienced that, and that had different consequences on children. So that's the short answer to that question.

Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that. And because you're— all of our lives, I think, everybody's life is interesting in different ways. And we talked earlier about, like, you know, do things happen for a reason? And that is, that is certainly debatable. But we can always find reason, or we can find meaning, you know, in it. And a lot of times those, those things in our early life, they do drive us, even though sometimes we might not realize till later how they've driven us. And to be a person who's lived, I mean, you've lived all over the world. I mean, literally many different cultures, and, and, you know, you live in this great life of service. So it's always interesting to get to know someone's background and maybe how that influenced them.

Sure. No, it definitely does influence us. And I think as adults, it's kind of also this coming to terms with certain things, reconciling certain things about our past. It's not about— well, a lot of us can very— a lot of us, because of who we are as human beings, we can shift to the blame mode, you know, pointing fingers. You know, I have all these problems because of this person, that person, that event. Yes, but we don't gain a lot from you know, just playing the blame game. It's natural that we do that as human beings. But in the end, we have to take responsibility for our lives. Yeah, I am for where I'm at.

Well, we talked earlier, and I think it might have been before we started recording, you know, you were mentioning like, we both have religious backgrounds. And, you know, religion can harm us sometimes. But I believe usually it's unintentional, whether it's coming from our parents or even from some of the religious leaders, like we talked, there are some crazy leaders in some, in some churches. But that we can, we can choose whether we want to play, play that blame game, or whether we want to learn and grow from it. And obviously, you've, you've chosen the latter. That's, you know, you, you, and you're helping other people to develop, right, to reach their, to reach their potential, you know. So I think that's a fantastic thing.

Thank you. I have tried. I— doesn't mean, you know, doesn't mean I have those moments where where I go into victim mode, or I can point fingers and feel bad about myself. But yes, but it's working through that. And I think it's also, this has a lot so much to do with the work that you do around grief, you know, around, you know, whatever the loss is. Fact is, now I'm experiencing it. Now what do I do? You know, we all get it. We can all spin out of control going through that. But it's little by little gaining control again and making proper, making the best decisions. You know, when we're in crisis as human beings or when we're in pain, oftentimes we can shift to very impulsive decisions or we can make very poor decisions naturally because we're trying to get out of the crisis as soon as possible, trying to get out of the pain. But oftentimes those decisions aren't in the bigger picture of life. And so, you know, one of the topics I enjoy talking about is being patient in pain. And so that we can really, whatever the loss is, to really to learn how to sit with it and to discover the answers as we go through it rather than trying to jump out of it. Hmm. And, but anyways, that's such an interesting topic.

Yeah. Well, that, and I think that you had a phrase that I noticed in your, in your information sent me about sliding, not deciding. I think it was. What, what does that mean?

Slightly, it's really, it's more about just not being intentional. And we can, whether it be because as human beings we have a hard time with difficult conversations or we have a hard time facing the truths about our life, it's easier just to kind of, let's just see what happens, go with the flow, whatever. The easiest example to use is relationships. You know, where we can slide into relationships without having all the intentional conversations about where we're at, where are we going, and all this, right? And then we stay there for an undetermined amount of time. And then that can lead to— and depending on, you know, if you get married, it just leads to, well, you know, well, we slid into this, we really never decided, right? Or we can slide into a lot of things in life and then just stay there because it comes— it becomes a comfortable place to be. Comfortable but also uncomfortable. We're like, ah, this doesn't fit, this isn't right. But it's— I suppose it's easier than change, right? Change is hard for us as human beings as well. Change is— our brain has a hard time with change, and we want safety and security. And so we can oftentimes find safety and security in, in the known discomfort and pain rather than stepping out of it.

Yeah.

That's sort of the simplest way of— without giving a lot of examples around sliding and deciding.

Um, yeah, you know, it's interesting as we talk about this, I was just meeting with a client earlier today who lost someone very close to them, and they're coming up on like a, the 2-year anniversary of it. Um, and what I, what I was observing with this person is like how quickly relatively speaking, they're progressing through what they need to go through. But it's because they've done all this work. It's, as you said, it's intentional. And when it comes to, to the grief process, I hate to say this to people, but it's work. It's, it's, it's, it's a matter of setting intentions and doing the work. So your phrase, citing, not deciding, makes perfect sense because We avoid the uncomfortable stuff. We're like, let's just put it off. Let's not think about it. We don't like change. We don't want to change ourselves. We don't like when things change around us.

Right? Yes, it's natural. And it happens to me every day. I avoid projects, I avoid work, right? Sometimes I avoid difficult conversations, you know, because you don't know how to, you know, but in the end, those are like little clouds that we carry around that become heavy. And so intentionality is so— and you know, when we talk about personal growth is You know, none of us go uphill unintentionally, right? We can go downhill, right? But growth, you know, if we use the hill example, and growth, you know, and all that, and development, it requires intentionality. It doesn't happen by inertia or on its own. And, and in this context about working through grief, it requires a lot of intentional work of leaning into the pain to draw the wisdom and to understand and to reconcile with it, to integrate it. And so that doesn't have so much power over us, you know, to integrate it and reconcile in a very healthy way. But it's hard for us, you know, and that's why, you know, when I think in this whole thing of loss, it's, you know, people turn to other types of behaviors. They want to just silence the grief, not deal with it, and then move on. But when we do that as human beings, at some point, especially if it's something that was very important and meaningful, it will— I suppose life will send us a bill, and it can be pretty expensive, you know. And this has a lot to do with my story of not dealing with my stuff, letting it build up and build up, you know. You know, I use this example a lot working with Marines, is we put the certain events in our life or certain emotions, we, we put them like into a little cupboard or closets into the darkness, hoping that when we put them there, they'll just sort of disappear. But there's certain things, experiences, emotions, things that when we leave them in darkness, they grow. And that's— and at some point they begin to really take over. And when I say that they grow, they sort of can go bad, they can fester. It begins to affect our whole, you know, even though we can't see them yet, but the stench of that is infecting my whole life, my whole ambiance, my environment. And then I give this off in the way I am, and we don't know where it's coming from. Well, it's stuff that we haven't really dealt with in the healthiest way. But it's natural for us as human beings that we want to put those things away because they're very uncomfortable. We don't know what— there's certain things that happen to us that we just don't know what to do with them. And oftentimes you make— we don't like to reach out for support or help, right? We like to manage things on our own. And so, well, I'm just gonna, you know, and in my life as a priest, you know, because of what you represent and in ministry, you know, as a leader and as a figure, and you're supposed to have it all together, like, be like, well, I can't be having these problems. I'm like, I don't know what to do with it. Then I don't know who to trust with my pain, you know. And I saw this a lot working with sailors and Marines because they're in an environment where we, you know, where we have to be strong and weakness is not an option. If I have problems, that means I'm weak, and weakness is unacceptable. So therefore, all my problems, I have to put them away. Yeah, put on this facade. But at some point, that, uh, again, it sends a very expensive bill that we have to deal with at some point. And so that's what I did. You know, I had to go into inpatient care for a good number of months to really deal with all the stuff that I was going through, my crisis, my identity, and You know, I'm very hard, very painful.

Yeah.

But it's led to— I have to say, it's led— it's still a journey, but it's led to beautiful things, and I'm very thankful.

So how do we convince people, or, um, how do we let people know that dealing with your stuff is actually a sign of strength, not weakness? Because I, I hear you talk about the Marines, and I, I just get the stereotypical picture of a Marine in my mind. But it's not just Marines, it's, it's a lot us. Like, I'm going to be strong, I'm going to, I'm going to power through this, I'm going to distract myself with whether it's with work or with whatever it is. And but to, to deal with this, to reach out and get help, that's, that's weakness.

Yes. Well, it's, it's pretty, as in the human experience, we, you know, in the spectrum, we live in this sort of in this tension. Between these extremes of the something in us because of the ego, right? And that the ego has, it's a necessary thing in our life. So I don't want to condemn the ego. But the ego has this certain aspect of independence. I don't need anyone. I don't need anybody. I can do everything on my own. And then on the other side of that spectrum is codependency, right? Which is another healthy, but in the middle is this just this healthy interdependence. You know, I don't mean to go on a tangent, but when we look at creation, we look at every element and every aspect of the world needs each other. You know, air, nature, water, and everything— the trees, the plants, everything needs— nothing subsists in and of itself. All right, except God. Right. But nothing, you know, and, you know, if we look at the most useless, for lack of a better word, and being that ever exists is the human baby, right? Because it, it is so dependent for so long. And I think there's such an important lesson in that, that about who as human beings, that we need each other. And we see it at the beginning of life and we see it at the end of life, right? And in the middle, we sort of go on to say, I don't need anybody, right? Naturally, it's very natural. But in the end, we— and I learned the hard way. I didn't know how to work on myself. I didn't know how to trust people. And I had to learn. But there's something about, you know, this right here, Brian D Smith, you and I, you know, this conversation, this confidential— not that this is confidential, but the safe setting where I can talk to someone because we are mysteries unto ourselves. And I discover part of that mystery, part of who I am, through your eyes.

Yeah.

But also through transforming my experiences, the painful experience, transforming them into words. I take more ownership of them. They become more real. And that's why oftentimes when we talk about things, we start crying. Because when I transform it into words, into concepts, and I, and I say it, it becomes more real and it creates the same thing that happens with laughter. But it creates a very powerful experience, you know. And I wanted to go on another tangent about tears, right? When I— when I let— and again, we're talking about the Marines. It's easy because it's a stereotypical thing that way, right? I love Marines, and I can't— you know, when I don't want to generalize, you know, and it's just— I refer more to the culture.

It's a culture, yes.

And it's— and, and I've talked about the same culture in the Catholic Church and another faith organizations, and it's around certain identities. But when I left the Marine— when I left the Navy and working with Marines, I, I wrote a little poem. And one part of that poem says— because the poem is called The Tear of a Marine— and it's— part of it says, a tear is a language so refined that words cannot make up their mind. The body and spirit desire to express, struggling words only say less. And the timid tear says it all, as from your eye does fall. You know, and so tear is a language, right, of oftentimes of what we can say. And there's a father of the church as well, you know, Ephraim, from the ancient fathers of the church, that says until you have cried, you don't know God, right? Tears cleanse our eyes so that we can see better. Wow. But it's hard for us as human beings to cry, you know. And I've been able to sit in that space where the uncomfortable space of to watch people cry.

Yeah.

Allow them to cry. And knowing that those tears say a lot more than any words can ever say.

Yeah, that's, that's, that's beautiful. And I've, you know, what I was— it's funny because I'll have clients sometimes that'll apologize for crying. And I'm like, don't, don't apologize for that. Because that— we need that release. And I love that you said that it's, it's like a language that we can't speak in words. And we, when we allow ourselves that, we feel so much better afterwards. We feel, we feel cleansed, we feel relief. There's something about crying that actually, it's like you're releasing something.

Yes, definitely. And going back to what you said, why is, you know, that contradiction we experience of dealing with our stuff, we can experience as a weakness, right? Or going through problems, or I think it's just part of who we are, going back to the ego, it's part of who we are as human beings. And it's, but it's a lie that we tell ourselves. And it really, we tell ourselves because we tell everyone else. That it's courageous.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, that's a great point.

We tell everyone, yo, it's amazing, and we find it so admirable, but we also find it hard to do for ourselves, right? Because of something in us that experienced the weakness, because, because we have— we all have masks, right? We use different masks for different settings.

Sure.

And in all of this, you know, dealing with the reality, it's taking off the masks and just sitting with, you know, looking at the man in the mirror, you know, and, and there's something in us that says it's a lie, but it says that that's weakness. But really, it's about the expectations we have on ourselves, you know, that I, you know, I'm supposed to be this, I'm supposed to be that, supposed to be— it's something we tell ourselves, really. But we think that everyone else is telling us that too, although it's not true, you know, but we're telling it to ourselves. And so we we're letting ourselves down. And this goes back to what you said about compassion for ourselves. We let ourselves down, and that's really, I think, where we have the conflict in dealing with the truth of what we're going through.

Yeah, well, I like what you also said about the ego, because I think we have to be balanced when it comes to the ego, because there's a really— seems to be a big trend to bash the ego. I want to get rid of my ego. My ego is terrible. It's got to go. I want to kill the ego, even. And it's like the ego is, is necessary. The ego is here to protect us, but sometimes the ego gets carried away. And, you know, while we're— we are in this world, and we— the baby thing is a great analogy. We come in, we're totally dependent. We go out, we're totally dependent. And in between, we think we're supposed to be strong and independent. But nothing in nature— and nature is here to teach us— nothing in nature is— nothing in nature is independent. And, and we're not, you know, we— I, I depend on people to grow food for me, to provide water for me, to do the roads. We're all— that's, that's part of being human. But we've— we get lost. We get lost in that ego thing.

Yeah. So let's keep the ego in check because there's something about, you know, whatever word you want to use for it, but there's something what I call the beauty, the beauty of human brokenness. So this is brokenness about something that's a little bit off in our human condition. But I think there's a beauty about it, and it's keeping that in check. And the ego, of course, is necessary. It's part of our identity. You know, self-esteem is all, you know, all the— everything is built around just the healthy ego of who we are. And so yes, we have to be very careful about just the over-condemnation of that, but it's keeping it in check so that it doesn't get distorted and lead us to distorted behaviors.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's helping the ego understand what its role is, right? And that's understanding what our role is.

You—

I know you teach, obviously, leadership training, but you also do diversity, diversity and inclusion. So explain to people, because some people are like, why is that important?

Yes. Now, I like to say I take a holistic and wholesome approach to diversity, equity, inclusion.. And I get a lot, you know, why is a white heterosexual, you know, male cisgender male, why is he working at the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion? Well, because I'm going back to what I said at the beginning, I'm passionate about the human person and our dignity of who we are as human beings. And so I don't think I need to be of a certain color skin or sexual orientation, whatever, to be able to have credibility in the space. And I think that it's also got hijacked by certain ideological principles. So it can be, which in the end does not serve the human person. And so I think just my background, my education, you know, my global and intercultural background, I think it adds a great rich. So it's really, it goes back to dignity, the dignity of the human person. So why do I, and why is diversity, equity, and inclusion? Because as human beings, part of our human experience also, we all have We have natural prejudices, we have natural biases, we have natural blindness, and it's something that we all have to work on. And so, and the ENI, that it, it addresses this in a very intentional way. Oftentimes I don't think in the best way, but it, but at least it's, it, there's a movement there of intentionally addressing biases. It's part of who we are as human beings, but they are things that do not serve us well. Because there's— it's blindness. And in the end, it takes away— and when it's about human relationships, it takes away from the experience of human dignity. And we see this, you know, if we go back to American culture, you know, the way we, we dealt with, with Black people, with African Americans. But we can bring this— we can go across— we can visit every country in the world and see that there's where there's racism, discrimination, classism, all this other— because it's part of the human experience, but it, it's not a dignified part of our human experience. We can do better. We can do better. And so that's why it's important to me. And when I think about DE&I, yes, it means diversity, equity, inclusion, right, under the umbrella of belonging. Because this is what really, in this, in the end, that's what we're looking for. We all want to belong, you know. And, but I also use DNI to say, you know, dignity, equality, empathy, and I can't remember what the I is, but anyways, okay. And, and DNI, when it's not healthy, it's divisive, exclusive, and ideological. So we have to, that's, we have to keep that in check as well.

Yeah. Well, you know, talking about our biases, you know, we all, we all have them. And it's interesting because you've lived in different cultures. So I've only lived in America. So I think of the ones that we think of in America, but I know you've also lived in Ireland. And I remember when I was a child, and I would see what was going on in Ireland at that time, you know, with Catholics and Protestants. And I'm like, wait a minute, these are all white people that speak the same language, they're all supposedly Christians. And human beings, we seem that we'll find a way to divide over like anything, you know. And you think if aliens came to Earth, they'd look at it and say, what is, what is going on here? What is, what is the problem? So these small biases that people might think are not harmful, maybe in our, in our everyday lives, blow up into things like what we're seeing going on in the Middle East right now, right? You get people living right next to each other who, if they're looking at each other, they can't tell the difference who's who, you know. And then they're killing each other's children. So it, it starts with the small stuff, but it also becomes the big stuff.

It does. There's really not much I can say there. I, I just, I, we can do so much better as human beings. You know, we consider ourselves, you know, so globally advanced, or, you know, whether it be countries or just as a society, you know, we're evolving, we're so developed. But when we look at all this, and again, we can go to the Middle East, we can go to so many countries in the African continent, don't get a lot of visibility in the news, sadly. We can go to different parts of Asia, we can go to probably just little inner cities of across our country where we, where we see this and where human beings, we can do so much better in the way we, we treat each other. It does, it's, it doesn't make sense and it's, it's, it's very hurtful.

Yeah, well, so again, I think it's, it's like you said, teaching people about the, the dignity of, of all human beings. And, you know, I think focusing more on what we have in common as opposed to what we, you know, what our differences are. And I know you're, you're from New England, you've lived all the world, you're living in Mexico, Mexico City right now, which I think, you know, it'd be really cool if more of us could experience other cultures, um, to see the the commonalities as opposed to all the differences that we're taught about.

Right. And to see the difference, but to understand, wow, people are so different and to value it.

Yeah. Yeah.

The way they look at life. And, you know, because we— I do, I would recommend to every— at least now we're speaking to a lot of Americans. I would recommend every American to— they can't do it, but to live abroad for a period of time, even just months, because you be— it challenges our own set of beliefs and values. And, you know, the way— because we look at everything through our own prism. Cultural prism. We're like, no, there's so many other ways. And, and to understand why people do things the way they do, the traditions they have, right? And usually there's, there's traditions that go, that are a lot older than the United States, right? Yeah. Yeah. And learn how to value those, where those come from. And even if they, like, some traditions or perspectives could be sort of born from a distorted vision of, of the human, but you know, they've just, they've been there for centuries and to understand where they come from, why they exist and why they're valuable to people. And, you know, and I think when we go back to just speaking about conflicts around the— around parts of the world, a lot of it has— there's just so much history there, right? Which, um, a lot of us don't understand the cultural and, and aspects of history that have been there, that have built up this— that hatred has grown over time in this, and rejection. And there's just a lot of history. There's a lot of history of hurt. And it's passed on from generation to generation.

Yeah, I've been, I've been trying to educate myself on some of the history. And it's, it's still, it doesn't make it less tragic, but it makes it, I guess, a little bit more understandable. But it's, I still like, just when I see people killing other people, I just, we've got to find a way to, to stop that regardless of whether this guy's brother had a fight with that guy's brother several generations ago. And some of it comes down to literally that, you know, these two brothers went two different ways and we became this tribe and you became that tribe, and now we don't even know why we're fighting, right?

And I think, you know what, what comes to mind is parenting. Parenting is so important because oftentimes these things are passed on from parents to children.

Sure, yeah.

And a lot of, you know, extreme beliefs and a lot of just ideologies and a lot of just distortions can be passed on in that way, right? And, and when, when you're a child and you grow up in this environment, well, you're told this, you see this, you— well, that's what you're going to believe and that's how you're going to behave.

Yeah.

And if we want to change, well, I think we have, we have to— change starts in the family.

Yeah, I completely agree.

And in the way government, you know, leads. Yes. Yeah.

Well, you're helping with the, with the leadership. That's, that's awesome. So, um, Matthew, we're coming to the end of our time together. I wanted to, um, give you a chance to say anything that, uh, you feel like you didn't get a chance to say to, to the audience and let people know where they can find you.

Thank you. Thank you, Brian. Thank you so much for this. I know we, we went in so many different directions, probably we didn't expect, but that's the beauty of these conversations. I just, you know, I— when we talk about losses, again, there's so many types of losses, and not to go on for a while, but, you know, what I would call even just little deaths in our life, you know, when we can lose hope, we can lose meaning. And, you know, whether it be when a romantic relationship falls apart, when it's a loss of a job, when an event changes my career progression, and when it's a loss of identity, right? When it's, you know, in the sexual— there's so much also in just in the sexual experience you know, when the loss of— when the loss of virginity, for example, but when it happens in a very unhappy situation or tragic situation, there's, you know, that's, you know, or there's again, and I don't mean to get too much into the sexual field, but it just even, you know, it can happen a lot with women that haven't had fulfilled sexual experiences. And that's— and there's a loss there. For, for whatever reason that, you know, that women that have never orgasmed— I know you probably didn't like my thoughts, but— or when someone's cut out of— so, you know, when someone is cut out of your life, or you're cut out of someone's life, you know, divorce, the loss of trust in a person, an organization, when your vision of life and expectation just falls apart, when there's a loss of health, when you're diagnosed with a condition, when you lose a limb, when you lose hearing, when you lose sight. And there's so many types of losses and grief is all part of this. So I'm throwing all those out there so that your listeners understand that, that the grieving process shows up in so many ways. Yeah, in our human experience. So feel free to reach out, feel free to follow me on Instagram, Matthew Brackett Official, also on Facebook, LinkedIn, Matthew Brackett, my website brackettalliance.com. And a lot of service, I really, a lot of my approach to leadership is just is around the human experience, how I lead myself. And this is where grief fits into that, right? And then how I lead in my inner circles, my inner circles of influence, how I lead professionally and in organizational contexts. And so, yes, a lot of you'll see that a lot of my content doesn't deal with just leadership, but just a lot of aspects of the human experience. And I also do some relationship work, you know, if you're in a relationship, a committed relationship, and you want to make it work, but it's sort of like and you're in rough waters, then I also work with people so that they can really learn to love again, learn to see each other again, you know, because there's also losses that they've experienced in the relationship. And so to help you make the best decisions as you move forward as a couple. So thank you, Brian.

Yeah, great. Thanks for being here and enjoy the rest of your day.

Likewise. Thank you very much, Brian.

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