Transformation Through Near-Death Experience: David Williamson's Journey- EP 342

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. And today I've got with me David A. Williams and David— or Williamson, I should say. David and I met a couple of months ago at the IONS conference in Washington, DC. And I've been excited to have him on the program. Our schedules haven't worked out. It's been about, I think, about 3 months since we met, but finally worked out. And I'm really excited to talk to him today that you're in for a great episode. So if you're new to Grief 2 Growth, we dive deep into the mysteries of life, death, we explore how those shape our experiences and our existence. And my name is Brian D Smith. David is a native of Yanceyville, North Carolina. As I said, his name is David Williamson. He had a near-death experience that opened up new doors to realms of understanding of his life and being, and we're gonna get a really deep into some of those things today. What's— what does it mean to be a human being? But as I said, he's a native of Yanceyville. He's lived a life deeply affected by identity confusion, by racial trauma, and by rigid ideal ideologies that we all go through. But his near-death experience brought for him some profound realizations about life and existence, identity, and actually what it even means to be human. He found himself hovering above his body in his NDE. And since coming back, he's had a transformative process that he's been going through. So our topic, our subject today, our conversation will go through a range of thought-provoking topics that I'm sure you'll be interested in. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief 2 Growth David Williamson.

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure meeting you at the conference. And I've been looking forward to further having dialogue with you since. So I'm happy to be here today.

Yeah, we had some great conversations there in DC. And so we decided to do this. And like I said, our schedules have been busy. So I'm glad we finally get a chance to sit down and do this. So in your, in your bio, it mentions that you grew up in Yanceyville, I believe it was. So what was that like growing up there?

Yeah, it was, it was initially as a child, it was, you know, idyllic. It was perfect. You know, I was, I had access to nature. I played in the woods all the time. I stayed in the woods. I used to dig holes trying to find treasures and Everything was magical to me as a child. I was happy to be alive. I was happy just walking through the woods. I was happy seeing animals, identifying animals. I used to— I had all kinds of books as a child to help identify edible fruits and plants and stuff. And I would, if I was with my cousins, I would be like almost like a tour guide. See, these are called this, we could actually eat these. And my cousin made a joke about that recently. And, but I just, from childhood, you know, I just enjoyed nature. And, but in North Carolina, the town that I was in also had a lot of racial tension, a lot of old racial, you know, orientations. My biological grandfather was a sharecropper, you know, so it's, my family is not even far removed from, you know, those kinds of tense interactions, you know, So even stories from my grandmother about life on the, you know, sharecropping and how the owner of the land would come around being very disrespectful, you know, to the wives while the men were out in the field, and even trying to, you know, sexually assault them while they're— the men were out in the field.

Yeah. And for people who may not know, let's talk about sharecropping a little bit because some people don't know what that even is.

Yeah, well, you get a plot of land, you're given promises about getting the land at the end of a certain amount of time. Most of the time it never pans out. I think my family did get a little bit of land, you know, out of it. But it's— you're just working land for someone else. And, and it's half a step out of slavery. Exactly what I was gonna say, it's one step removed from slavery. Yeah. And my uncles all worked on that farm. So my cousins and I are the first generation, for all intents and purposes, you know, out of slavery, you know, that had complete autonomy over what you, you know, wanted to do with your life, you know. So, you know, and that's something to consider, you know, even when I think about the trauma in my family, you know, and the racial tension and the racial trauma. It's, it's, we're not very far removed from a very horrible, you know, period of, you know, of American history. So me seeing that stuff, you know, I saw the KKK marching up and down the street as a child multiple times. That stuff is what kind of informed how I thought the race stuff was supposed to be dealt with, you know, I just assumed they were going to hate me. And I guess I'm supposed to hate them back. And that's kind of, you know, where my orientation towards race and race narrative and racial identity kind of was you know, you know, established. And seeing the KKK and seeing the hate from both sides, like feeling all of that, I absorbed it all. And I don't even know if the people around me hated as much as I ended up hating people, you know, you know, and it just made me sick. It made me— yeah, it made me sick. It disallowed me to even have connections with certain people. So whether it was white people, happy people, I didn't like happy people. I didn't like, I didn't like anybody there. And it was, it was just toxic.

So yeah, that I can relate to what you're saying. That, that, that the thing that we're taught, right, we're taught, we're, this is why these people treat us, this is the way we're supposed to treat them. And so we take that on. And so what my understanding from our conversations we had before is that you really, you internalize a lot of that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I just, I carried it forward. It affected me. I would say in elementary school, I did have a couple of white friends that I was close with. As we got older, though, I saw how the whole race, you know, stuff affected them. And they weren't as— they did not— they weren't able to maintain those relationships as we got older. Like, I would see them out in public, and they would kind of be uncomfortable. And I could see that they were uncomfortable. So I would just kind of, you know, take care and just kind of move on. But that just kind of— because I'd already started reading, and I was already kind of, you know, in that hating stuff. So that just kind of was like, ah, confirmation for me. Even the good ones when we were kids become bad ones when they get adults, you know, it was just all of it was just bias, all of the confirmation of my biases that I had been carrying all the time. Those things kind of hurt too. So yeah, I mean, I had— I played sports. So and I was in Oklahoma at the time. So it was, you know, diverse, somewhat. But I just did not allow myself to have close relationships with, with anybody, really, but definitely not with the white kids, even white kids that I took— now that I'm an adult, and I've healed from a lot of that. People that I remember from childhood that I knew that I actually cared about, you know, I'm actually reaching out to some of them now. And, and just really, and they are realizing or telling me that they saw the pain, they saw the depression, they saw it all. And I didn't realize how obvious it was even at that age, you know, with some of, some of my friends from childhood, like, that's just David, you know, they accepted me because I think that there was some good qualities, you know, there, even the midst, you know, even amongst the depression and the hate and anger, but most of my friends accepted me for who I am. And that's just David, you know. And I appreciate them, the ones that love me in spite of myself. Like, I appreciate them so much more now. Because I just wasn't, in my opinion, always easy to be around. Yeah.

So tell me about your, your NDE. What happened with that? Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Well, just carrying all that hate around for so long, I'd been sick. I just never connected my I had digestive issues and hypertension, but I never connected any of that to my temperament, to my, um, depression, my anger, any of it. I never connected those two things. So, um, I eventually had my gallbladder removed. I was dealing with extreme hypertension, um, and then, um, I had a heart attack. The valve ripped February 1st, 2017, and then 7 days later I had the heart attack. And that's when I had the NDE. The— I was leaving work, literally, and I'm just thinking, you know, telling people goodbye, see them tomorrow. And, and that's— and I felt just the change, like the, the rip. Before, I never felt the rip in my heart. I always felt it in my back and shoulder. So I never really connected it to my heart until that day, when I started feeling that stinging in my heart and feeling my heart not beating properly. So I sat in the car for a while and trying to decide if I was going to call 911 immediately or wait until I got home and see if it was still going on. And so I drove home and pretty much in cardiac arrest. And because I couldn't breathe hard, I was— well, the breathing stuff wasn't as bad as it got later. But I was still kind of breathing deep to keep my— to try to keep my breath and So I got home and, um, and David, how old were you at the time? Um, 39.

Okay, so you're a young man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, so, um, I get, I get home, I eat a snack because it's kind of going up and down, like the symptoms are bad and then they kind of ease up. So I'm thinking maybe this will go away, maybe I'm just hungry, maybe I need a snack, you know. Yeah, I eat the snack. You know, just crazy, not wanting to assume the worst, you know, just like, I'll get past this. I'm always hurting anyway. I'll get past it.

Right.

And, um, but it didn't get better. I eventually called up to my, my son's mother, Tricia, and asked her to take me to the emergency room. She worked from home. So she was there. And she was— she had already been aware. I made her aware that I wasn't feeling well. And, and she took me And on the way, it started getting worse, you know, I had to like really breathe deep in order to, you know, to keep my breath. And, and all that it really felt like, because I think, you know, some people, heart attacks, the action of the heart may just, the muscle seizes up, or, you know, and it's painful, like almost like a heart cramp, you know, I can imagine, like, I can, I can only imagine how painful that could be. But my heart attack, or my heart my cardiac arrest, or whatever it was, whatever you— how it was described, was due to the vessel, the valve ripping, aortic valve ripping. So it's what if— my experience of this heart failure was drowning. That's what it felt like. It felt like, it felt like I was drowning. And, and ironically, I drowned at age 6 and had an NDE. At age 6 that I— that affected the depression and the sadness that I experienced from age 6 forward. So from 1 to 5, I was kind of happy. I had spiritual stuff going on. I was having lucid dreams and all this other stuff, sleep paralysis, and, and really just kind of knowing that I would— I didn't feel comfortable with— I used to, I prayed to God that and to ask God to stop me from knowing things that I wasn't supposed to know, you know, because I knew things about people, I knew things that I just didn't feel like I was supposed to know. And sometimes it affected how I treated people. Like if I knew they were lying, if I knew they were lying, or I knew that they were expressing an idea that wasn't consistent with who they are, I didn't take them seriously, even as a child, even if I was supposed to respect them as an adult. If I knew that they were lying, it was hard for me to respect them. As an adult, you know. So I kept a lot of that stuff to myself. I didn't say a lot. My mother was aware, you know, that I was different. And so she kind of, you know, sheltered some of— like, she didn't let me get in too much trouble with the knowing and with the smart mouth, you know, stuff that would come out because I knew something about someone. Or she would downplay it. Oh, that's just David, or kind of send me away when I said something, you know, kind of inappropriate. I remember saying something inappropriate once and, and then the person was like, kind of, you know, taken aback and my mom just shaking her head like, oh my goodness, you know. But, um, so at the hospital, when I get to the hospital, I'm, and I'm going to come back to that because the 6-year-old NDE.

Yeah, I don't want to come back to that. Yeah, for sure.

But when I get to the hospital at the 40-year-old ND, I'm, I'm going, I'm pretty much fading. The guy's trying to get me to sign papers. And I'm, you know, frustrated with him. Have some words for him. And I apologize to him later. I cussed him out pretty good. But I apologize to him afterwards. Because I felt bad. Like I really, I genuinely think you had an excuse. Yeah. But, and, but when I got the gurney came out, I was maybe 20 seconds on the gurney and I was passed out. But as I was turning the corner to go into the room where they were going to be working on me, I saw the doors and, but I was, but I passed out pretty much as I saw the doors. And, but, and this is important part that I always mentioned is when I opened my eyes after being resuscitated, I was aware of everything and where everything was situated in that room. That I didn't see before I passed out, you know. So when people say that it's an hallucination, I was passed out before I went in the room. And but when I opened my eyes, I knew where everybody was at. I knew where the room, how the room was situated. And I was looking for people that I saw when I was above my body looking down, I was looking for them to speak to them to see if they were okay. And so it didn't— I don't— I didn't receive it as an hallucination. And that was difficult for me, because I would have probably been better mentally if I would have just accepted it as a dream or an hallucination. It would probably just let me go back to being David, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

But I couldn't, I couldn't because of certain details like that, like learning while I was out of my body, learning details about things that was in the hospital or in the room, you know, while I was out of my body made me know that this wasn't— I wasn't making this stuff up, you know. Because I didn't know those details until I went into that room. And so I, when I turn the corner, I go black. And where people were, there were like dots of light, like stars, it looked like pixels almost. And but I could tell that that's where people were still, because that's where my attention was kind of focused there before I blacked out. And I assumed that those dots had to just be some some kind of remnant, you know, it's like the hardware was going, was shutting down and everything was bad. All of the hearing was blurred, sounded like underwater, my sight was gone. All of the senses were just kind of shutting down. I wasn't detecting reality properly, you know, in a human way. And, but as soon as I kind of got into the room, I'm still kind of just, my attention is still kind of forward, I'm laid back, and I could see the people, the dots still where the people were. And then like maybe, maybe just a few more moments after that, I was out of my body looking down at the whole scene. And the people around me the same way it seemed that they were when they were pushing me in. And, and then I noticed the woman in the back corner of the room holding her face with both of her hands. And from that point forward, that was pretty much the major focus my attention inside of the emergency room. I never left that area outside of my body until I left this realm and went to the void in space. But initially, I just stayed and watched and, and had a bunch of thoughts. And the first one was, he's dead, used to be there. There was no sadness about me dying. It wasn't even— I didn't even assimilate that as if I died. I was like, he's dead. And I'm here. I'm right here looking at it, you know.. And I knew it. I knew that I wasn't dead. I knew that he was dead. But I knew that death had occurred. I wasn't confused about any part of this. But when I looked at my body again, it said his body is dead, his mind is dead, his ego is dead. And then I said, well, what remains? What am I? And the words flooded in almost simultaneously. Soul, spirit, consciousness, awareness, light, energy. And that's pretty much— that was pretty much it. And, and it may have been like a couple more words, but they all were how humans refer to awareness or consciousness or soul or spirit. It was all of the words that all humans use, you know. And, and then the phrase that I heard was, you killed yourself with your personality. And that hit immediately very hard because I could, I could see my personality. I saw my, I felt it, like I felt the hate. I felt my personality in that moment. I could, I remembered, you know, that's how I was. I was angry, I was depressed. I hated people who hated me. And I hated some people who didn't deserve to be hated, you know, and And so I knew that those things are what were being referred to when they said my personality. I killed myself with my personality. And so I still watched for a while, watched them defibrillate, and I watched the woman in the back of the room. I was really concerned about— I wanted to tell her that nothing that I was experiencing was negative. It was all beautiful. It was instant, instant awareness that I was— it was no negative. At any point. My, my awareness never ceased. It was seamless. It was, it was in the body, the body started dying. I could experience some of that. It wasn't pain, though. I didn't experience pain. I experienced some of that initially, the heart attack, there was some pain, I would just say more so just anxiety because I couldn't breathe. And then I passed out from lack of oxygen. It wasn't like passing out from pain at that point. And, but outside of the body, I didn't have any of that. I didn't have any confusion, any pain, any concern really with the body that was dead. Honestly, it was like, you know, as I was dying, and there was a moment where what people call, you know, they talk about life reviews. I really didn't have one the way a lot of people describe, like the screens and Aitek, you know, I just considered everybody and it was like almost like 5 seconds. I considered things that I had done that, or that I left undone, and the effects that it had on people that I didn't realize that it had. One thing I remember was it's just some people that I agreed to do things with, that after I agreed to do it, I kind of, you know, went on about my life and didn't really revisit it. You— what I realized in that is if you say you're going to do something, just do it, because you might hurt the parties involved in ways that you don't even realize, you know. And so things, it was really minor things, you know, but minor, minor in the living, but not clearly not minor in the, you know, the energetic exchange, because those things kind of stuck, you know, I remembered some of them. Some of the things I would immediately reconcile, like when I came back to my body, I had no more connection to it. Like, I didn't feel guilty about any of it. Some of it is an opportunity to fix, and whether it's fixing with the other person or fixing inside of myself, I'm okay with either, either way, you know. But, but once I got to space, because at one point I just looked up, kind of looked up, and I saw the ceiling for a split second, and then I was gone. There wasn't any, like a tunnel or anything like that. I was just immediately in the void. And this blackness was tangible. And it felt like I was moving through something that I was touching it and was enveloping me, you know, like velvet, you know, and what it was communicating, it felt alive, it felt like love. It was intense blackness, like whether your eyes are open or closed, it doesn't change. That's the kind of blackness it was. It doesn't change anything. You know, it's just black. And but I could feel things, I could see things faintly kind of come into my vision and then fade away. None of the words were really intelligible. I couldn't make out many words. Some, a lot of images, nothing very, nothing, everything would just kind of come and then fade away, like almost like smoke. But it felt like everything was there. It felt like all possibility was there. And it felt like love the same way that people, you know, describe the light. It felt like love. It felt like home. It felt like it was important for me to be in that space, you know. And, and at some point, I could— I was floating out of that space. And I could look down. And the behavior was similar as it was when I was in it, very responsive to me and my thoughts.. But it was more obvious when I was looking down at it, above it, that it really responded to my thoughts. Any moment where there wasn't clarity, complete clarity, I could just look in the void, and there would be a slight movement, maybe a slight, slight color change, nothing, no image that was clear. But instant clarity before the, before the confusion was even articulated inside of me, the clarity I received, it just staring into the void. And this, in a similar way, that's how all of my learning occurred while I was out of my body and in space. Because as I came out of the void, I could see space, different aspects of space. I saw a star-forming region, and sacred space. Everything else that I saw, when I looked at it, the distance between me and it totally disappeared. And I was pretty much on the other side of it, you know, looking back at it, at it, and I knew what it was. And I was one with it, almost like it— like the space that I covered became part of my awareness. Like, I knew everything that was in the space that I covered as I traveled around. Everything that I looked at, I understood what it was after the distance between me and it disappeared. The star farm, the reason— the only difference between it and other things is that I didn't go into it. I kind of hovered around the clouds and didn't go into the middle of it where the faint lights were, where the stars were being born. Because that's the thought that I had when I looked at it is that, oh, so this is where stars are born. And I remember that thought clearly. And it felt sacred. Like, it really felt like a sacred place. And it was the only place, like I said, that I didn't just go straight into the middle of it like I did everything else. But like, I just moved through everything else without, without any hesitation. But there I kind of paused. And it's like I revered it. I stared at the star-forming region. The only thing that I stared at as long as I stared at the black hole or the void was that star-forming region, because it was just as compelling to me, you know, as the void was. And, but then I looked up into the right, and I could see the light, you know, speaking of people, many others, you know, have experiences with when they have their NDEs. And it felt like love, it felt compelling. It felt— if I didn't move anywhere, and I just stayed still, I could feel the pull of the light kind of pulling me in that direction. But if I wanted to move somewhere, I didn't feel the pull, like I could go wherever I wanted to go, you know. And I did not— while I was in that experience, I didn't feel as motivated to go to the light as I did just traveling through space. I wanted to just travel through space. And that's pretty much what I did. I would look at something out in front of me. And then the distance between me and it would disappear, I would see something else, the distance between me and I was just going going, going, going, going, going.

What kind of things were you seeing?

I saw, I saw a big rock. It looked like an asteroid. I mean, when I came back, I looked it up and said that it is probably an asteroid based on the description of it. But it didn't feel like— it didn't feel alive, as alive as other stuff. Like, it didn't— it felt like it was just a rock, you know, or, you know, just nothing, nothing natural. That emanated the same love that everything else, you know. So I stared at that for a while. And it was weird because it was red. And it had a strange shape. Like, part of it was round. But then it had like a band. I don't know if this came from just damage, me slamming into stuff, or, you know, the elements or whatever. But it had like an area that was like a band that went like halfway around it. And it just kind of floated by And, but I definitely was interested in it. I moved to it. And I turned my attention around, and I was on the opposite side of it. I looked at it for a minute. And it just kept, it kept by going by. And everything else was kind of like, if I saw a star or a twinkle or anything out in the distance, I would— it's a bunch of space would disappear, and then I would be still in space, but just moving. You know, just kind of moving through. There's some stuff that I don't remember. And like, there's a whole side of space that I don't remember. And that's, that's weird to me. Because I remember everything that was to the left and everything that was in front of me. But everything that was to the right, I don't, I don't really remember except for what was up into the right. This, this, the light was up into the right, but the space that was over there. I don't really recall what I was seeing. But I think there was stuff there. You know, I might, I might even need to listen to an old, like my first couple of interviews and see if I described anything else over there, because I don't remember much else being to the right of me. But down into the left of me was the void. Up into the left of me, and kind of out in front was the star forming region. It covered a big space.. And then straight out in front of me was just space. And it was beautiful. A lot of the clouds, like the cotton candy colored clouds, that's, you know, that was around the star forming region, that was some of that kind of just out in front of me. And but yeah, I didn't, other than just the space itself, and just wanting to move through it. There wasn't a lot of other details. There wasn't a lot of— I didn't see any other beings. I didn't have any other conversation with any other beings. It was all internal kind of dialogue is what it felt like. But everything I saw, I was like, ah, ah, every— it was like an ah moment. And then the distance between me and the thing disappeared. But Yeah, a lot of details that weren't— weren't— it was just love. Everything felt like love. I felt like I was a part of it. I felt like love. Yeah, and I felt safe. And I think that was the reason why traveling around was so— I was enticed to do that because I didn't feel like anything in that realm that I was in could harm me. Like, I felt like everything was love. So I didn't have any hesitation to just go and go and go and not even take note of where, what I was, you know, where I was at, or where I needed to go back to. I just left and just started traveling. But I kept— my attention kept— excuse me, it kept being pulled back into the room to the woman that was holding her face. And, and every time it did, it would go— like, there was a point where I was looking at the light. And then I would go back into the emergency room. And when my attention went from the light through myself, back into the emergency room, I— that's when I saw that I was just an orb of light. And because everything that I could see, when I was— when my attention was moving back, it eventually went back through the angle that, you know, threw me back to the emergency room. And it was just an orb of light. And that's, you know, that, that's what really changed how I view reality. Now I view myself, whether I'm in a body, out of the body, I'm that orb of light. And that orb of light was perfect. It was not confused about this human experience. I really didn't even remember the specifics of my human experience until I looked back into the emergency room and saw that woman. And then even then, I didn't remember David, I remembered wanting those people to be okay from seeing David die. But I didn't remember, I wasn't remembering looking back into the emergency room saying, oh, that's where I died at. Oh, what was me? I'm dead there. It was no thoughts like that. It was just concerned about the people that were sad that I was dying. And that was it. And, and but when I, the last time that I was kind of in front of the woman, kind of just wanting her to hear me telling her that this was a beautiful experience, just looking at her. I got resuscitated. And, and when I got resuscitated, I just blurted out— I was immediately very lucid, like I wasn't groggy or anything. As soon as I opened my eyes, I lifted and I looked for her and I was like, are you okay? And, and the people that were resuscitating me were looking at me like, hey, you know, and I looked at the guy that was holding the defibrillator pads and I said, are you okay? And because he looked really distressed and concerned that I was not going to make it, you know. And, and he cut me off. He was like, no, are you okay? You know, and, and then a voice from the right said, you didn't feel that? And, and I was about to say, feel what? But when I looked down, I could see this gel, like a gel, like a rectangle of gel with the indentations from the defibrillator pad on that gel. And it's like a pad on my chest. And it immediately hit me like, oh, you really were dead. And I laid back. And, and there's some funny stuff, man. But I laid back and there was a guy kind of in my— really, really close to my face. I don't know if he was a person. I don't even know if the lady that I blurted out, are you okay, to was a person because I don't remember seeing her. When I opened my eyes, I just remember blurting that out. And I don't remember— there were so many people around me that I don't— I didn't see— either I didn't see her at all, or she wasn't there. She was like a spirit or a guide, ancestor or something. But reminded me of my aunt, and some people, you know, seem to think that's my— it was my aunt. And it could have been, you know, because I really love my aunt. She was my mother's twin sister, like a second mother. You know, me as a child. So, but coming— when I, when I laid back, and I looked to the left and saw this guy's face, he looked like Shaggy from Scooby-Doo. And little scruffy hairs on his face. And, and his eyes were wild, like really wild. And he was like looking at me like, like he's shocked that I was alive. And he said, what did you see? And, and he said, it's so wild, you know. And I was kind of tired. I don't know, I was just, you know, about to pass out is what I felt like. And, and I looked at him. And I didn't, I didn't have any energy to talk about the whole specific, all the specifics. So I just looked at him and I said, "Blackness," with the same wild eyes that he had when he asked me the question. And that was so funny to me. But I passed out pretty much. I don't remember anything after that. I think I went straight. Like I passed out after that. And, but that was it. But as far as the experience, when I woke up, like I said, I just thought I was crazy. I thought half of it was a dream, half of it may have been some real stuff, but I didn't, I didn't know what to think of it. But it did, it had immediately changed me. But I was more depressed when I got back out because I, the parts of me that believed that this was a real experience, I wanted to go, I just wanted to go back. I just want to go back there and travel space. I didn't want to be in this human life anymore. I didn't even see how I could be in this human life anymore. I didn't see— I didn't see it would be possible for me to hop back into being a human and doing rat race. And I— it didn't— none of it felt good. Everything that felt good to me was when I left here, you know, and that's what I wanted to go back to. So I tried to get back, you know, into work and all that stuff. And stuff was different. I was having more, honestly, more success in the workplace than I had before, because I was just going to work and doing work. I wasn't talking about anything else. I wasn't angry at anybody. I was just really trying to learn and learn my job and do my job. And so I got better results. I was offered a full-time job with, with this one company, but they had a hiring freeze, like right when they offered me the job, or they, they got word from corporate that they weren't going to hire an outside contractor for the role. And so I got laid off the day that I was supposed to be hired permanently. So that was, you know, kind of pushed me back in the direction of this world just isn't for me. I, you know, even when I get a job, I don't have a job. Like everything is just the way it's gonna always be for me. You know, I went back to a little bit of the hopelessness. And depression. Depression was worse because I felt that God knew of another alternative. Like, I knew death wasn't real now. So I didn't have to be here and deal with this stuff that I never liked being here dealing with anyway, you know. So it was like, I just thought more about that alternative, about not being here, than I did about how to figure out how to be here, you know. And that was like 3 and a half years of this trying to work and really being depressed most of the time. But eventually, I started talking about my near-death experience on the Clubhouse app. And all of the skepticism that I even had about it went away. Because I— that was one— I have over 4,000 books, 4,000 or 5,000 books. And I've studied spirituality deeply since I was a child. But near-death experiences was a blind spot. I didn't— either I didn't take it seriously, or I just didn't go into it, you know. So I didn't know how to talk about it. So sharing it on Clubhouse and hearing other people who had the experiences, that was so healing for me. Because it made me realize, one, I'm not crazy. To this is normal. Like, this is actually normal. People, you know, come back from this. And then I saw IANDS and DIRF, and I'm reading the different accounts. And I'm like, there's thousands and thousands of these, and they happen every day, you know, probably hundreds a day, you know. And I, the more that I learned about it, the more that I started thinking, because a lot of people— when I came back, I was way more sensitive than I was prior. Like, I was always empathic and always had these little psychic stuff going on as a young— younger. But when I came back, everything was more intense. And I was hearing and feeling other people's stuff way more. And it was like torture. And I hated it. I hated it. That was another reason why I just wanted to go leave. And because I never liked being an empath in the first place. I was— I stayed in my cave. I didn't even interact with people. But I felt people deeply. And part of the reason why I stayed in my cave was that most people felt like confusion and anxiety and stuff that I didn't want to feel, you know. So I stayed away. But I realized, after the NDE and feeling the people so much more deeply, that that's the opposite of what you should do when you're an empath. As an empath, you have to be amongst the people to feel what's happening. Like, because you— I'm a reflector, um, as well in Human Design. So I don't— and I might be on the spectrum, you know, definitely now, but before I might have been slightly on it. Now it seems like my orientation towards the things that used to give me nervous system triggers, it doesn't happen the same way. I don't think that, um, I don't think that I'm completely, um, unemotional or passionless. But it doesn't drive me the way that it used to. Emotions and feelings and passion don't— I consider them now versus being led by them. You know, I just consider them, you know, I don't really— I don't feel the same way, you know. And I think that for me, that was a more important part of the experience than the gifts, because I had the gifts as a child that I asked God to take away, because they were just kind of distracting. And, and scary for a kid who didn't have anybody around explaining what that stuff was, you know. But so I didn't care about the fact that I, my quote unquote gifts were intensified. I wanted to know what happened to me, you know, what was wrong with me, you know, is there something wrong with me, you know, And, but because I knew that there was a difference, and it was a drastic difference. And so I wasn't just going to say, well, forget the difference, I got gifts. And I'm going to share with the world all these gifts that I have, without understanding what happened to me and, and the difference, changes, the juxtaposition, the opportunity that I have to do and be something different without understanding any of that, without understanding, perhaps that there may have been some brain damage. That could have influenced the changes inside of me without talking myself through this, without considering my own sanity, without considering all of it. Like, I don't think I would have been able to land the way that I am landing. Because I haven't landed. I'm not— nothing's, nothing's fully settled. Like, I feel like a different person almost every day. And, and, and that's hard. But it— but I think what keeps me tethered to this experience in a beautiful way is now I have hope, whereas I didn't have hope before. Now I see possibilities for a beautiful future for humanity, whereas I didn't see that before. And to go back to the drowning at 6, after I drowned at 6, I was having visions of a timeline where it was just a lot of death, you know. Human roadkill, right? That's, that's nobody responding to it. Like, I saw this vividly as a child at age 6 after I had that drown. And I also had memories of being in Hiroshima and Nagasaki during the bombing. And so I had all my life extreme anxiety about nuclear war, you know, and to the point where I was a teenager studying alternatives to uranium because I felt like it was too unstable and it was too difficult to get rid of when we're done with it. And I started reading about thorium and how it was a safer alternative. And I'm a teenager concerned about nuclear energy. And it was because of this memory at age 6 of being in Hiroshima and Nagasaki and being very concerned about that. Even now, that's a concern of mine, but it's not— my nervous system isn't attached to it, you know, the way that it was.

So when you were— thank you for sharing that. That was amazing. So I appreciate you going into detail and telling us about the tying in with the experience at 6. So some questions about your experience.

So you were—

the void sounds like it was not a scary place. It was a great loving place that was giving you feedback and being responsive to you. But when you saw the light, you know, you said it was kind of gently pulling you, but you— did you feel any, any like, I want to go to that? Because it sounds like you really kind of didn't.

No, I didn't. I kind of— when I came back, when I was resuscitated, and I thought about the light, the— what it felt like, I knew was that I would be recycled, like I would just be reborn, and I would not— and I wouldn't remember, you know, any of this previous stuff, you know. And, and I really don't think I wanted that, you know. I think I thought I hated this life. I think I thought I hated everybody in it. But when I was dead, I was concerned about people in the emergency room, a Black lady and a white guy, you know, and more so than just traveling through space. And I was enjoying that more than anything I've ever done in my life. But I was so concerned about these two people that I think I made the choice of wanting to come back just in, in expressing that concern, you know, for these people. And I think that not wanting to be alive for me was more not feeling a part of it, and not, not feeling that my contributions mattered, not feeling that my ideas would ever matter, not feeling that I would ever matter. As you know, being in a racist, you know, kind of environmental racialized environment, I never felt that I would matter. So I, so I don't know if if I hated life, or if I hated the idea that my thoughts and my concerns would never matter in this life, you know. And, and I don't know that now I'm attached to that idea. Because I'm not— life to me is an opportunity. Just waking up every day is an opportunity to think, to feel something different, to breathe, to learn, to share a moment with my son, a 9-year-old, 9 years old now. And his mother, I mean, it's a— every day is an opportunity to just do something different, to learn something. So and I never— I didn't have that orientation before. Every day was like torture to me before. So I—

another question I had, because you were talking about moving through space, and this is something that's always fascinated me. I hear people say, some people say, on the other side, there's no time or there's no space. And I've heard, you know, time, or time is kind of defined by space. So time is like how long it takes us to traverse an amount of space.

Yeah.

So does that, does that somehow relate to what you were saying? Like, I would just see something and I would be there?

Yeah, there was no, it didn't take any time for me to go from one place to another. It was, if I saw it, I was going to be there. Split second. Every time that I said, ah, I was there. Every time I said, ah, everywhere I looked, and I said, ah, I was there. You know, there was no period of time, you know, there was no time lapse. It was just, I went, I could see this. If anything, in the beginning of the movement, it almost seemed like some warp was happening. But, but the, that was so fast that that's not all it was, is an instant being there. As far as the experience of it, it was just instantaneous being there. But there was an initial movement in the direction that I could sense. And, and in that split second, you could see reality kind of bending or shifting and doing— but just speeding up. But then that's gone. And then you're just at the next place.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So what are your thoughts about what awaits us on the other side? You— your experience was traveling through space. You said you felt like if you went to light, maybe you'd be recycled. So what are your thoughts about death now? And what choice would you make? Would you go toward the light or travel around space?

I don't know. I think I have some time here remaining. And depending on how well I live, you know, how well I accomplish the things that I think about now, it'll determine whether how fast I want to be back here, you know. But I think I want to live again. I would probably go to the light now, because I have hope for humanity, and I want to participate in the story. So I don't really think, for me, there's anything else for me to participate in. You know, I want to help humanity, I want to help this system, I think this system is beautiful. And it deserves— we deserve it. We deserve to be able to come here and access this life, you know, this experience. And sometimes the thoughts that, that I feel, some things that I feel is that if we don't behave better, then we jeopardize the possibilities of this system, you know, And I just want us to behave better so that this system and all of the possibilities that exist in it— if you don't have the opportunity to experience anything at all, even waking up and crying is an experience worth having, you know. So if we totally compromise this system, we won't even get to experience heartache. At all. We don't get to experience anything, much less love and all of the good possibilities that exist here. But experiencing these things, to me, when you are something infinite that don't have to experience anything specific, is, is really an opportunity. You know, as a, as an awareness, as a soul, as a orb of light, I could have experienced it a lot. More, you know, than just being a human being, just being feeling one emotion. That was awe-inspiring to me in that state. But in this state, giving somebody a hug and feeling love is awe-inspiring, you know, and that alone is stuff to wake up for, that alone is stuff to, you know, to want to preserve the system for. And we focus on the negative, I focused on the negative 40 years of my life. And, and I ignore so much beauty that happens here all the time, every day. In my mind, in my body, beautiful, amazing things are happening. But I'm only putting my attention on the things that bring me, you know, misery. And, and then I blame reality for being miserable, you know, but reality grants me the opportunity to feel and experience all of these things, not just the misery. You know. So now for me is just this place, being here, having an opportunity to feel misery. I want it. I want it to be here. And not just for me. I don't— I think I've come to understand stuff in a different way to where I don't really desire it for myself the way that I desire it for just soul, because we're one. And we're supposed to be able to move and learn and grow and evolve. And this is just one place for us to do that. And I don't think we should carelessly deal with this experience. You know.

So what are your thoughts about— and you kind of covered a little bit already— what is the purpose of coming into this, this existence, this, this, this density that we, that we live in with all the trouble and stuff? And because, you know, like you said, as an orb of light, which I want to talk about that a little bit too, what that really means. But why did— why does that orb choose to come here?

I don't know. I don't— I think a lot of people, you know, there's a— I've read a lot of explanations. I hear people speak very confidently and conclusively about whys, and I don't have those, those comfortable, confident conclusions about reality. I think that everything's a possibility. But I think that that's why we come here is because everything's a possibility here. Tangible, every— is it— there's a, there's a tangible possibility for anything to happen here. Whereas there, it's, it's an instant. It was instant satisfaction of those tangible opportunities. There was no experience. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, it was just instant satisfaction of having the experience. Whereas here you actually have the experience. So, so for me, I think just from detaching my trauma and narratives and identity stuff away from my experience, everything that I did here led me to this level of understanding of reality, and this level of appreciation for reality, this level of love for this entire system and experiences that are possible within it. Be they war, be they love, be they peace, whatever they are. This is— we are creating reality here. And we seem to want war. So until we don't want war anymore, it's going to still be here. And but that doesn't have any implications on what's possible in terms of the beauty of this experience. What that speaks to is us, is some of the human nature stuff. You know, anxiety, you know, you have anxieties, and you have hunger. And you have all these other things. And it might lead to behaviors, you know, dealing with your neighbors that ain't, ain't really the best behavior. Yeah. You know, we have all of these drives in us that make up stories, and, and, and it doesn't always lead to good conclusions. You know, that's why a lot of the times now, I literally say I don't come to conclusions, and I don't share conclusions, and I won't give anybody any conclusion. Because you are the creator of your experience here, you know, and for me to give you a whole lot of conclusions is denying that.

Hmm, yeah, good observation.

So how—

before you had your experience, you, you were— you said you had this anger and resentment and stuff. And then you came back and you had depression, I guess, because a lot— and that's very common. People don't know, when people have NDEs, sometimes coming back to the body can be hard. Um, how do you feel now in terms of that anger that you had? How is David different now than before?

I don't carry the anger. Um, I, I, when I'm passing people now, uh, I, I just feel them. I just feel them. I was saying. Okay. Yeah, I don't carry the anger around like that anymore. I'm really like, every day, the focus of my attention generally is my nervous system. Like, my nervous system, I would prefer that it stays flat. I don't want to respond to these ideas. And, and, and really, a lot of the times, just, just zeros and ones, it's nothing that I have to feel one way or the other about. But when you do, you create tension, or you create an experience that is— it's just an experience. It doesn't have to be a negative or bad experience, but you, you create ripples, basically. And those ripples can become waves, or they can, you know, they could dissipate back into the flatness. But I'm trying to monitor my stuff, because what killed me before was passion, and feelings, and emotions, and storytelling, and lying to myself about what was happening in reality. So now, I don't seem to be able to do that anymore. If something happens, and I say something about this person, if I even if my, my habitual response from 40 years of being a certain way, is, is, ah, fuck them. They just, you know, whatever. And I move on. Like, 5 seconds later, I'm gonna be like, dang, maybe they were just in a bad space. You know, I should be more tolerant. I should have been more patient. Like, I'm always questioning, you know, any conclusion that I make of a person, it somehow just sounds like I'm cutting, like I'm disrespecting them, you know, because everybody changes, all of this reality changes, everything here is in constant flux. Somebody meets you in one moment, and they're a certain way, that doesn't define them. You know, it could have been something in the energy that was in that space that made them more volatile. It could have been something they ate. It could have been, you know, it could have been an odor that they smelled that's attached to a memory from childhood that they're not even aware was happening at that moment that they were feeling these things. So I immediately try to give people now, even if I initially kind of have a knee-jerk reaction, I fixate on myself so that I don't blame or judge people for the things that I lived. I was not graceful. I wasn't nice. I wasn't always, you know, tactful, you know, tactful in dealing with people because I had so many biases and, and had accepted so many racial narratives and that I had automatic responses. It wasn't— I wasn't considering the people in front of me always, you know.

Yeah.

And now that's something that I try to do all the time is consider who's in front of me and not judge them. And consider if they are not graceful, what made them that way? What trauma could have made them look at reality this way? What made them not trust people? What made them not like me? What made them hate every— you know, and I think about what happened to me. And it's like, it's more compassion now than it is judging a person for being even a racist. I don't care if you're racist now, you know, something happened to you, or somebody gave you a story that you accepted, you never questioned. And that's more of a, you know, I feel more compassion for that than I feel any anger, because you don't get to live your experience when you read scripts. You don't get to have an experience when all you do is read scripts. You know, I just don't want to read scripts anymore. I don't judge people for doing it.

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Because you and I both grew up Black men in America. And my experience was, I grew up, I lived in a Black neighborhood, but I ended up going when I was like 12 years old to school, all white people. So I was, I was surrounded by white people for most of my childhood. And so I tried to ignore race. And I remember when I was in my early 20s, talking to my girlfriend at the time, and she's like, why do you try to act white? You know, because, you know, because I was, I was listening to white music. I was, I was, I just was immersed in that culture, right? And so for me, it was like, that was about the time, my mid to late 20s, when I was like, okay, I have to accept the fact that I'm a Black man because that's what everybody tells me I am. Because I felt like the opposite. I think of the way you did growing up. I'm like, I'm just Brian. I don't want to be this. I don't want to identify with this. But now I'm like, this is how everybody views me. And I'm like, so that's, that's who I am while I'm in this body. So how do you feel about like the body and this whole race thing that we've got going on?

Yeah, I mean, I don't deny the fact that I'm a Black guy. It's hard to, to overlook it. But, but what I experienced, you know, as an orb of light, and the peace that I experienced, the clarity that I experienced, it would be, I don't know, it would be It would be, it would be wasting this opportunity to learn reality as close to purely as possible for me to hop back into this body and say, I'm not interested in learning reality as purely as possible. I'm interested in, in fighting white people. I'm interested in, in, in sharing narratives with Black people that will only make them hate white people and hate being alive. Like, I hated being alive. I didn't see goodness in my community as much. I saw us having fun and laughing and loving. And those are the things that sustained me, you know, when I was the most miserable, is that I could actually go to some of my friends' house and laugh, you know, and tell jokes. And we still tried to make good even in the bad, you know. And so that I appreciated that about my culture and my people. But I wanted things to be better for us. And if it wasn't going to be better for us, I didn't really, you know, I was angry about that. And then even the people that the person that might have called you a sellout, right? In my opinion, they were a sellout because they weren't angry about nothing. If you're not angry about what's happening to Black people, to me, you were a sellout. I didn't care as much about your disposition as I did about how you felt about Black-white issues. You know, if you could articulate that these things bothered you or concerned you or angered you, then I probably would accept you regardless, you know, of your history, your past. But because that was all that I was focused on was Black-white stuff. It was— I wanted to fix the Black world. I wanted to fix problems for Black people wherever we were on the planet. And I blamed white people for all of our problems. And, and, and when you look at history, I was digging through history, I had a bias. So everything I was seeing was just confirming bias. But there are a lot of historical records of just very vicious behavior, you know, so it buttressed, it buttressed my hate, it buttressed my position, it buttressed my bias. But so what I try to tell people now is that when I was angry, and I hated people so badly, I was also slightly out of my mind. I couldn't focus. I couldn't create stuff, build. I couldn't. All I could do was feel. All I could do was feel. I wasn't being logical. I wasn't saying, okay, if this is making me feel this way, what, what else could I feel? And what would help me get there? I could fix these problems. Could I address these things? Could I? And now when I look at the problems that angered me, and the disparity, I'm motivated to just to try to gather resources, address these things in a different way. But not feel— I ain't feelin'— I'm not gonna feel all this stuff. Because all it did to me was kill me. It didn't galvanize anybody around me. It didn't give me any power or agency to fix problems. It made me sick. That's all that it did. It made me sick. So for me, actions, behaviors are a lot more important than just sitting around feeling and talking, philosophizing about hating anybody or making up philosophies about reality when you're living in reality. You don't have to make up stuff, just live your experience and focus on the things that you constantly have to repeat. I was running into the same walls over and over and over, and I never realized that I was running into the same walls. Your life is your holy book. If you pay attention to the repeated themes, repeated narratives, the repeated stories, the repeated, you know, and the big occurrences, they shape us. They shape us and, and they give us a story that in the end, I think if we really, really look at our story, it's a good story. It's always a story of becoming. It's always a story of triumph. It's always a story of resilience. And as long as you keep hope in that story as well, It never stops being that. It never stops being that. Yeah. But as soon as you lose hope, it's dead. It's over with. It's a bad story from there. Everything you see is bad. Everything you experience, you frame it badly. Every— there's no, there's no good that comes from a mind that is intoxicated and focused on hating and anger and misery and only the negative of this experience. Yeah, you focus on the negative, you get more negative. You focus on the good, you get more good. And that just seems to be how this place is built.

Okay, awesome. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that perspective. I think it's really important. Because we do, we do have these, we tell each other's story, we tell ourselves stories, right? And we watch what's going on in the Middle East right now. And we've got, you know, these people killing each other, you know, and because they're telling each other's stories, I'm supposed to hate them. And, you know, I was listening to one perspective on this this morning, which I thought was great. He said, you know, we think wars are about territory and food and stuff like that. He goes, they're not. So there's more than enough territory there for everybody. There's more than enough food there for everybody. You know, it's the story that causes the conflict.

That's it. I have a whole lot of ideas on that stuff. I'm going to have a podcast soon. And I'm going to talk about with my friend Zach, who had an NDE, profound NDE, profound person. And the story, the stories are fixable. Yeah, because if you look at our behavior through history, it's the same stories repeated over and over and over and over and over. Repeated in the books, repeated in holy books, repeated in books from cultures all over the planet that are not even interacting with each other. You know, and a simple way to articulate it would be just the tale of two brothers. You know, there's Egyptian story, ancient Egyptian story that's literally called the Tale of Two Brothers, but Sumerian story of Enki and Enlil, and the prodigal son. Cain and Abel, Solomon and Adonijah. I can't even think to say his name, but his brother that tried to take his throne. It's the same story over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And if we tether that story back to the original intention, versus tethering it to a centric narrative about a group of people that's special or chosen or different, then we could put that the truth of the story back into its original framework, which included 8 billion plus human beings, not 144,000, or whoever, whatever number we think, right? Those things are symbolic, those things are. And then you got to think about the population of the planet in ancient times in comparison to now. Perhaps there might have 144,000 probably could have been 90% of the population of the planet. Yeah. I don't know. But I'm just saying that Sometimes we take our emotional attachment to the stories, our— the way that it's been told to us by parents and family, and we're supposed to be attached to these stories. And we don't put ourselves into these stories, you know. And if we put ourselves into these stories, it's just human beings. Interacting the same way we interacted now. A lot of foolishness, a lot of ego stuff, a lot of, you know, a lot of centering personal ideology and identity stuff. And saying that love— and it's easy for us to imagine how love applies to everybody that looks— that's in our circle, that looks like us, that thinks like us, that feels like us, and all this other stuff. But when you can't apply that same love and, and all these beautiful qualities that you can apply within your circle, you can't apply those same things outside of your circle, you're part of the problem. You know, if you're in a circle that says that the only people in this circle are chosen, you're part of the problem. Because that's, that's a war. That's, that's a violent, that's a violent thing to say. To say that I love only people in this circle, everybody outside of me are either sheep, or expendable, or not under God's law even. That, that can inspire all manner of wild human behavior, you know, and everybody feels that way. Everybody feels that their circle is the circle that God is behind. And all of their behavior is, is justifiable because God is on their side. Yeah, that's, that's just not true. That's— we're living, we're living how that's, that's ridiculous. Yeah.

No, you and I are talking about applying this to race, but we can apply it to gender, we can apply it to political party, we can see it going on right now in our own country. You know, neighbor against neighbor, because they're, they're red and I'm blue.

Yeah. And it's ridiculous. If I, if you know love, it doesn't change whether you go out of your circle into another circle. Love is love, you know. And if, and if, and if your love doesn't work that way, then you don't know love. Yeah, if your love only works within one circle and doesn't work within the entire framework of humanity, you don't know love. You know, and even, uh, thank you so much for doing this today.

It's been, it's been— I'm glad we were finally able to catch up and do this. You could share your perspectives with us. You're obviously very intelligent, very well thought person, and I know you're— I love what you said, like, I'm still changing, right? I'm still, I'm still landing because none of us has landed. That's why we're— I think that's why we're here. We're here to grow and develop, and I'm, I'm glad to see what you're doing. It's really awesome.

I really appreciate that, man. I definitely feel that I'm still landing. And I think that's why my focus is where it is. I want to help people ground these wild experiences and integrate them in ways that— and integrate them back into reality. And because that's how I think the NDEers are going to help, is by integrating back into reality, not by staying out on the fringes, you know, and speaking about things that are above the average person's head in a way that's above the average person's head. We have to learn these concepts, become these concepts, so that just walking past a person changes them. Like, we have to embody this stuff. And, and the NDE experience, as tragic as they are for a lot of us, they do grant us that opportunity. Yeah.

I've met a lot of you guys, and I met, you know, as an IANDS and stuff, and I know it's hard. I know it's hard being an NDE or living in this world, sensitivity, being an empath, sensitive to energy, stuff like that. And so I could see it'd be really easy to say, I want to close off and not feel all the crap that the rest of us put out. So I appreciate people like you, you know, stepping up and delivering the message to us. I think it's really needed.

Yeah. Yeah, we need to ground all of these lofty spiritual concepts back into reality, back into our society. You know, we need to live, we need to live this stuff.

Well, let me know when you get your podcast. I'll be happy to have you back and talk about it.

Okay, I will definitely let you know. It's gonna be soon. It's gonna be soon. We've been in the planning phases, and we've had a few bad starts. And then we just go back to the drawing board and like, okay, let's start again next week. You know, we're gonna get it.

We're gonna get it, man. Well, enjoy the rest of your day.

You do the same. And thanks again for having me.

Bye. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 Lessons That You Can Learn From a Near-Death Experience Without Going Through All the the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. Www.grief2growth.com/NDElessons.

I hope you enjoy it.