Transforming Pet Loss Into A Path For Growth- EP 336

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Hi everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. And today I've got with me a special guest. Her name is Erica Messer. Before we get started, I want to introduce myself to people who might be your first time here. We explore the multidimensional nature of grief and the many ways that we can, we can find growth through our pain. For those tuning in for the first time, I want to let you know that this podcast is a haven for heart-to-heart conversations about the journey through loss, about the hope that persists beyond it, and the understanding that love never dies. So as I said, I've got with me today Erica Messer. And Erica, after the sudden passing of her cherished cat Wolfgang, or Wolfie, her sorrow led her on an innovative path. She channeled her grief into creating pet loss grieving cards, an offering that resonated with countless people, earning the Best New Product Award at the prestigious SuperZoo trade show. This endeavor, which began as Wolfie's wish, has since blossomed into a beacon of comfort for many navigating the loss of their furry companions. But her passion, her talents, and her passions exceed her entrepreneurial spirit. She's also a virtuoso of the harp. She captivates audiences with her renditions of pop and rock performed on an instrument that she's played since she was a child. Her musical journey took a significant turn in Vienna that added a layer of enchantment to her prowess. Erika now lives in Germany with her husband and her 3 cats. And that's where she's joining us from today. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief to Growth, Erika Messer.

Hi, Brian. Thank you. What a nice introduction. I appreciate that.

Yeah, it's great to meet you. I want to talk about your, you know, I want you to talk about Wolfie and how he inspired your work. We're Before we even get started, I want to let people know that pet loss is a really real thing, that people grieve their pets. I've had people come to me and talk about, you know, want to talk about pet loss. So I appreciate the work that you're doing because often it gets overlooked. But tell us about Wolfie and how you got started doing this.

Thank you. Wolfgang was a crazy little cat that I adopted during the pandemic. I hate to use the word replacement, but he was a replacement cat for one that died before we moved to Germany. And I think combined with the fact that, you know, I was home 24/7 in a foreign country, and, you know, I had— and I also nursed this cat. He had eye herpes as a kitten and was unwanted. And just those factors, I think, really developed a strong bond between him and I. And he died very tragically and suddenly, and I was really left devastated and really shocked at the level of grief and trauma I was facing. I had never experienced experienced anything like that before. And, you know, I asked myself several times, like, am I crazy? Um, and so that's really like the relationship that I had with him. It was pretty special. Um, as, as I've learned that many people have with their pets, you know, they become like— there's— you're lucky if you find one that you can call your soul animal. And I totally believe that's what he was. Um, and I tell people, you know, he broke my heart enough for me to want to turn my grief into something to help others. And yeah, part of that is I couldn't really find resources excuses for pet loss very easily. You know, here I am with this story in my head, like, it's just a pet, because that's what I've always heard. You know, why? What's wrong with me? Am I broken? So I had to go through a lot of self-exploration to come to find out everybody feels this way when they lose a soul animal, and it's just not talked about. It's just not acknowledged.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. You mentioned he was a replacement cat. I know you kind of hesitate to use that word. But so you have— you had— have you lost pets before?

Yeah, before, one month before my husband and I moved here, one of our cats got hit by a car and he was 9 months old. So it was kind of like, oh, we raised this kitten and he's gone and we're devastated. And to be, to just to qualify, he was more of like my husband's cat. So we both grieved, but my grief period was a lot shorter than him and it was like very acute for a couple of days and then it just kind of went to acceptance. So it was a very different experience. And Wolfgang was going to be, you know, we brought, we brought one cat with us and we wanted him to have a companion and for my husband and I to each kind of have our own snuggle buddy. Yeah.

So yeah, that brings up another important thing. I think that, well, losses is different. Every loss is different, right? So we lose some people in our life that we feel a different way about. And I guess it's similar when we, when we lose a pet. You mentioned you feel like Wolfgang was a soul animal for you.

Yeah.

So what does that mean to you?

That means to me is it was just, um, you know, I think he was more than a cat. And I know that sounds a little out there to say. Um, but it's just how I felt. And it was something that I shared with, I actually got grief support. I found a counselor to help me work through some of this trauma and confusion, um, and symptoms I was having. And, and she's like, yeah, he was special to you. A lot of people feel that way. And PS, you're normal. You know, I was really ready for her to tell me I needed to go somewhere or like get some kind of special treatment or, you know, enroll in like a PTSD program or something. You know, come to find out, no, when people, when people lose something they care about or someone they care about, it can be very devastating and debilitating.

Yeah. How did your, how did your grief present for Wolfgang? What were the things you were going through?

Oh gosh, I think the most alarming thing was, you know, having these thoughts of like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to die, but I don't want to be here. I don't want to be in this situation. How do I— I wanted to just like black out in a sense, which is obviously something I can't do. And I'm clean and sober for 15 years. So, you know, I really had to just sit with how to get through this. I would leave like the faucet running, I would leave the stove on, the fridge door open, the keys in the door. So I knew, and that was alarming, because I knew, oh my gosh, I'm aware that I'm grieving. But there's— I'm out of control. And that was very scary to think, whoa, am I going to be okay? What's going on?

I'm glad that you said that. I appreciate you being so, so vulnerable here. Because when people go through grief, these are very common that we go through, that feeling, I don't want to be here anymore. It's not necessarily a feeling of suicide, as you said, it's not like I'm going to take my life, but it's just like, I want the pain to stop. You know, the forgetfulness, the grief fog, I call it, the brain fog that we go through, or we just can't— the inability to concentrate. And, you know, we say to people, okay, it's okay to go through that with a person, but going through that with an animal, there's something wrong with that. But in a sense, our animals are even closer to us than people are in many cases.

Well, thank you for acknowledging that. I think that's— it's— you kind of have to have a pet to understand that. But what I've found, Brian, is when, when I talk to people and I tell them what I do, you know, most often they say, well, tell me more, what is that? And then some of them will come in and confide and say, you know, I grieve the loss of my dog more than my dad, you know, I don't understand. And I said, hey, it's okay. You know, you were with your dog 24/7. You never argued, your dog never told you to lose weight or, you know, save more money or just, they were just your companion and, you know, they give us unconditional love. And, you know, me, I see my family 4 or 5 times a year. Um, it doesn't mean I don't love them. It's just different. And so I hope to normalize pet loss grief and, and provide these kinds of explanations on why it can be so devastating. Um, especially for, you know, if they get a sudden illness or there's an accident. No one's really prepared for that, right?

Yeah. And again, that's something that I've kind of figured out after going through and talking to people who've lost pets. And I've had, uh, lost a couple. Um, as you said, your animal never argues with you, right? They don't, they don't, they don't give you advice. They don't criticize you. They, they love you. It's about as close unconditional love you can get besides, you know, maybe a child. But even the children grow up and they start to argue with you, and your pets never grow up. They're always, they're always there, and they're always there for you.

Yeah, and it's also interesting that, um, you know, we, we often see our pets their whole lifespan. You know, we get them as kittens or puppies or, or young, whatever they are, and then we have to say goodbye. And we don't really have that experience with humans or really any other relationships. So that's another reason why it's so different and so complex. And yet, you know, in my lifetime, people had dogs for protection or just they kind of kept them outside and, you know, yeah, they were fun. But our relationship with animals has changed so much in the past just 40 years. You know, cats were kept to eat mice. I mean, historically, right? And now, now we invented litter to bring them inside. People are throwing birthday parties for their dogs, which is beautiful and so fun. You know, you just look on Instagram and it's full of pet videos. Like, it's a thing. So our relationship has changed. And it's really time to stop that conversation or, you know, judgment of it was just a pet, get another one, get over it. You would never say that to someone who has lost a family member.

Right.

So we really have to treat the, treat the conversation differently, but also have resources and support accessible to people.

Yeah, that's a really interesting point you just made about how things have changed, because my wife is from Kentucky, and her father is a hunter, was a, was a a hunter. And so they always had outside dogs, you know. I think her parents, when they were— before they had kids, they had an inside dog, but they always had, you know, what they call outside dogs, and they kept them in a pen. And, and dogs were considered, as you said, kind of a working thing. And every— you, every— my mom or her mother would not let them in the house because every once in a while you might let a dog in the house, but it wasn't a thing. But now our, you know, our first— before we had children, we had a pet. We had her for 3 years before our daughter was born. And we took her with us when we traveled. We bought her Christmas presents. You know, it was like our, it was like a first child.

Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Things have really changed. You know, we had, I always had dogs growing up. They stayed outside and when it was really freezing in North Florida, you know, like one day a year, we put them in the garage, but they never slept with us. They never came in and sat at the dinner table or under the dinner table or really anywhere near us. But we loved them. They were just like our outside companions, right? Um, so it's really interesting seeing those changes firsthand, um, in just my lifetime. And, you know, I— it's, it's actually exciting to see what's next, right? If pets are finally being accepted as members of the family, you know, it's kind of fun. There's like dog hotels and, you know, vacations themed around bringing your pet with you. You know, you can now bring them on the airplane, like, right next to you, under your feet. It's really neat. And animals give us so much. Like, the human-animal bond is so beautiful. And it really doesn't matter the species. Because, Brian D Smith, I asked myself, well, do people grieve the same way for, like, a rabbit or a horse? Or, like, is it just dogs and cats? And so as I did my research and just asked people and had conversations, I found that, yeah, people will grieve the loss of a frog, the turtle, and cry about it. And it's nothing to be ashamed about. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it, the community that showed up, people who are doing exactly what you're doing, listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Yeah, well, that's another good point. Because, you know, I think a soul— I think animals have souls, animals are souls. And a soul is a soul. We can— we have that connection. My, my daughter, Shana, she wanted to get a gecko when she was younger. And so we, you know, we got a gecko. And then, you know, and We, everybody else was like, okay, it doesn't love you. You can't really hug it. It doesn't like being held. You know, you just feed it the mealworms every once in a while. But there's still that, that connection that she had with that gecko. And when, when the gecko died, she, you know, she grieved.

Yeah. It's, isn't it interesting that, you know, as, as a kid in school, like we had, um, like an iguana and some hermit crabs. And I think it's just so fascinating that we can be so close to nature. In a more personal way, rather than just, you know, being at the zoo or, you know, observing nature. It's like, with pets, you can, you can just experience this other part of life, which is really beautiful and special.

Yeah. So tell me about your, your grieving cards. And what do you, what do you hope to accomplish with them?

Yeah, so the grieving cards are really just daily practices that I came up with to help myself just cope, you know, I needed something really simple, like one day at a time. And there's so many books available, and I think that's wonderful. But with the grief fog that I had, or the brain fog, and, you know, I was kind of debilitating, these, the symptoms that I had, I couldn't, I knew I couldn't read. So I would share with my mom every day, hey, I did this thing, I wrote a love letter to Wolfgang. I laughed and cried, and it feels so good to have that written down and put away that lest I forget some of his quirks, I could go and read it. And it was just like, oh, it just felt like this big exhale. So I was sharing with her these things, and she said, I think you should make the thing that you couldn't find, which was a deck of affirmation cards, like daily practices, you know. And I, I tell this story a lot. I said, Mom, I don't know how to do that, and I don't want to do that. I'm grieving. I can't even focus. But She just kind of kept hearing what I was doing and said, I think these are really great ideas that you should share. So she helped me produce this first deck of 30 cards, and we were like, okay, what do we do with these? We need to get these out in the world. You know, I don't have an MBA, I don't have a business background. So we took them to a trade show, like a big giant pet trade show called SuperZoo, and thought, well, this is a great This is a great test lab to see, you know, if this is the worst idea ever. And then, you know, we— I still can't believe we won a Best New Product Award as a new exhibitor. And I, I cried under my booth just like with that, oh gosh, then this isn't just for me, you know, this is cool. And that kind of kept me keep going. And, and now we've got so many grief support resources and now we have anticipatory grief cards. So when your animal is sick or a senior, you can start working on your grief before it happens, before the pet passes, kind of taking some precautionary things to get yourself ready, um, for that, for that big loss. And we've got grief support that's free with counselors, um, once a month. Um, you know, if you just go to wolfieswish.com/resources, you can see, because I'll just list them out, there's, there's like 20 things now. Um, started with those cards which I still think are the best thing that we've got. But not everybody wants to read something. Not everybody wants something tangible. They might just want to talk, or they want a book reference, or they want to find a private counselor. So I try to be the person to connect people to people, or what they— what the solutions that they need are.

I think the cards are a great idea because, as you said, there is that grief fog. People typically we can't concentrate. So we can do things a little bit at a time. And it gives you a sense of direction, I guess you just, you, I guess you pull a card every day and do an activity. Yeah, because people want to know, like, okay, how do I, how do I navigate this? And then again, the biggest thing I think is normalizing it, because people do sometimes maybe feel like they're crazy. It's, it's funny, I was thinking we were, it was getting ready to do this interview with you. And I just smile when I think about this guy filled out an intake form to work with me. And he said he had lost his best friend. So I'm like, okay, so we're having the introductory call. And he mentioned, he said, well, my cat died. And I thought, oh man, this poor guy, he lost his best friend and he lost his cat. And as we continue to talk, finally, I realized he was talking about his cat was his best friend. But I guess when he filled out the form, he's like, he wondered if I would take him seriously. If he said that he had lost his cat. But I've had clients who have lost cats, clients who have lost dogs, and they go through the exact same grieving process you go through when you lose a person. Like you said, that, that grief fog, the not wanting to be here. Sometimes there's a disconnection with the spouse because the spouse might grieve differently. And they feel like they're not grieving at all. There's big decisions. Do I get another animal? Because people will say, we'll just get another dog. And that really offends some people when you say, you know, get a replacement animal.

Yeah, it does really offend people. And isn't that interesting? I hope that I can live in a world where people don't have to pretend that they lost a human in order to get the help that they need, or even the time off of work that they need, or whatever that is. But I can— I totally see that mentality right now. And I think it's the people that don't have pets. They're telling us how we can grieve and what's allowed and not allowed, when really majority of the population has a pet. And it's really time for us to step up to the plate and acknowledge this loss and defend ourselves in a sense to say, you know, this is valid. And I need support. And I need, you know, you may not understand, and that's okay. But I've got to find a way to get through this and take care of myself.

Yeah, it's, you know, I was thinking recently, I've had, you know, friends who have lost pets, because that's the thing about pets, you know, most of our pets, we're going to outlive. It's interesting that humans do that. We bring in pets we know pretty much are going to go. But then I'm like, okay, do I send them a card? You know, what do you do? Are there pet, you know, grief cards? You know, how do I treat this? Because if they lost a person, you'd come into the house, you bring them a casserole, and you, you know, you'd sit with them and You do all kinds of stuff, but when people lose a dog, we just kind of say, ah, well, it's just a dog.

Well, I think you tapped on something really important, and that is to treat people the same, you know, and bring them food, take out their trash, ask them what they need. And if you're uncomfortable or you're not sure, just ask the person, how can I show up for you? I care about you. I don't understand what you're going through, but I want to help you. You know, can I get you a book? What would you like for me to do? And honestly, just picking up the phone and saying, hey, I'm here for you. Do you wanna get your movie? Do you wanna be alone? It's that simple. Um, there are, there are pet loss sympathy cards. I made, I made some because a lot of veterinarians said, hey, we really like your stuff, but we can't afford that as a gift, right? We can't just buy those in bulk. So we always send a card and there's basically like one type of pet loss card and it's a rainbow bridge card, you know, and, and people are tired of that. And the vets say, I can't send that to somebody more than once, you know, our customers have 4 or 5 animals. So I kind of listened to the industry and listen to what people want and then fill in that gap. And I just finished doing a pet loss coloring book. I've got some— it's always great. And I, and I love using my creativity to do something meaningful. You know, I have an art background. And that's a big passion of mine, too. So I'm doing pet portraits, for example. Those take a lot of time. They're very meaningful.

Okay, so, so people can come to you and you do portraits for their pets.

Absolutely. Yeah.

But I think that it's wonderful that you're doing all these offerings, because as you said, there, there is a, there's a need there. You know, when we had to have our dogs euthanized, a couple dogs, you know, I remember our last dog, they sent us like her paw print, you know, they took it and they made a paw print, they sent it to us, and they said they sent a card. And that's really nice. But you know, it, and it's great that vets did that. And I'm not complaining about other people. But people don't do that in general, though, you know, because we don't know how to acknowledge that loss.

Right. And, but again, I think it's, it's more simple than people realize. It's just asking basic questions like, right, for you. And then to not be surprised that grief takes a long time to heal. So that person, you can show up for them, and then 3 weeks later, they're not going to be the same. They're not going to just snap back. And that's, I think, the hard part for people to realize. And I experienced that too, with the friends that I did have here in Munich and that I had made. You know, I didn't have a 20-year relationship with them or anything. And I think some of them were surprised that I was still grieving weeks later. And I was like, yeah, this has been bad. It's not something I just shrug off.

Yeah.

So that's a difficult thing, I think, on both sides, is for the grievers to have to navigate what they're experiencing, and then for the friends, family, colleagues, neighbors to be there long term. Yeah. And say, okay, I may still not understand what you're going through. I'm sorry. I can see it's hard for you. What, what can I do to help? That's just a beautiful thing regardless of any kind of loss to, to ask people. And I did want to say that we have a lot of— I mentioned that love letter and I made a template that's free to download and it's just really nice kind of stationery. And so there's things that people can go to Wolfie's Wish for and download and use. And you can even download that and give it to someone.

Right.

So there's I try to provide a lot of solutions and suggestions for people.

Yeah, that's wonderful. And you brought up a point I want to, I want to emphasize. You talked about like, people think you're going to get over it quickly. And this is true again, with humans or with pet loss. But I think probably even especially with pet loss, people are gonna think, okay, well, I understand you're sad for a week, or maybe a couple of weeks. But you know, it's been 6 months, you know, are you, are you still grieving that animal? And the question is, yeah, we still do. It's very normal. My, uh, my dog Chloe's been gone for 12, 15 years now. Yeah, probably that, about that long. And I still think about her all the time. Uh, so it's, that's, I think that's a normal thing.

What was your favorite thing about Chloe?

Oh, she was a miniature schnauzer, so she was fiery. She, she was just, she was feisty. She and I had many, many battles. It was the first dog I'd ever had, and I was like, you know, this dog's not going to run me. So she and I, uh, if you've been around terriers, they're she was— that's— that was my favorite thing about her, just really feisty.

And then look at how you're— you— well, people can't see you, but you're smiling now. And I think, you know, what a great question to ask people, right, when they've lost someone that they've loved, or, or a pet that they loved, or even, or even a relationship. What was your— what was your favorite thing about that person, pet, um, experience? And try to like shift the, the sadness, which is always be there. I'm not saying deny it, but shift to, hey, what was good? Right? And that's, I think, a lot of what Wolfie's Wish is about, is shifting your energy into what did I learn from this? What's the joy? Where's the love? Yeah. Let me honor that and remember that, because the sad stuff's always going to be there. There's always going to be a void. But what do we do with it? And how do we how do we put a scar, make our heart, you know, give it a nice scar and keep going? And I think for me, in my experience, looking at the relation, how lucky I was to find him during the pandemic when all the shelters were emptied and a stranger drove me an hour outside of town to pick him up from a barn. You know, I look at it that way. Like, how lucky was I to have him, even if it was only a year and a half? What a great and literally transforming experience that was for me.

Yeah. Well, again, we're saying pet loss as if it's different from human loss. All loss is the same in terms of, you know, loss is loss, even though I could say each one's individually different. But when it comes to our grief, it's, it's that shift that you just talked about. If we can make that when instead of thinking about what we're missing, to remember what we were blessed with, how lucky we were to have that relationship for however long it was. And, you know, again, talking about my dog Chloe, she was our first pet, you know, 30— I don't know, I can't even do the math now, but many, many years ago. I— well, she's 3 years older than my daughter, so she'll be— she would be 30 now. Um, but she was our first— she was our first pet, right? So I still have that, you know, that feeling. And I, you know, I can recall those good memories. And it's the same thing with when we lose a person. It's like, think about what you had, as opposed to what you're missing. And making that shift is important.

Yeah, and doing that with people that understand is important. So it's one thing to journal, which I think is wonderful, especially because you can refer back to and reread things, but to be in a support group or have family and friends that, that can share those experiences, you know, I've lost both my grandparents, my parents are still alive. But when we get together, we share stories, you know, of the funny things. You know, both my grandmothers had dementia, and they got quite animated at the end and said some pretty crazy stuff. You know, it was hard for us because they were— and I don't mean to digress too much, but my point is that, you know, remembering the impact that they had on us and the world and just sharing the positive experiences really does did a lot and does a lot for my mental health and well-being.

I noticed in reading about you, you talked about, I know, an aspiration, at least at the time you wrote it, about providing music services to animal hospices. So I have a couple of questions there. First of all, I didn't know there were hospices for animals.

I didn't either.

Okay.

Yeah. So I found that, you know, here I kind of came to this crossroads and I've really been examining my life the past 2 years, like what Okay, now we're doing Wolfie's Wish. What do I do with my music that I've done since I was a baby?

Right?

And I said, well, prior to the pandemic, I was working on a certification in clinical musicianship, right? So I was already playing in hospitals and end-of-life facilities in the Bay Area. And I, I really wanted to do more. So I'm finishing that, but decided, well, why, why not tap into this? Un— you know, let me just look at how I could apply this to animals because— and then I started researching that animals respond to music the same way we do, very similar. So for instance, classical music, um, there's studies where, you know, puppies will just pile up and fall asleep. And so it's really interesting and I, I want to be able to record and release my music on streaming services not only to help people grieve in a relaxing, you know, playlist, which I already have on YouTube for heart, but I would really like to get into, yeah, veterinary hospitals or have playlists for people that have pets in palliative care and even daycare facilities, right? Doggy daycare. Like, why— I wish there were— I wish there was enough harpists in the world to just go in in person and, you know, play play for nap time. But having playlists specific, you know, for specific needs, I think is, is just really, sounds really fun to me. It's gonna take a little while for me to really get that going 'cause I wanna finish my certification and, um, you know, get with a mentor. And so yeah, it's a long-term goal, but still sounds really fun. Yeah.

Well, it's, it's another thing that I think there's a, there's a need for. Um, and again, I, I, there wasn't where there were doggie hospices or animal hospices. And end of life for animals is always a big issue for pet owners, um, because unlike with people, a lot of times we get to or have to make that decision for them. Um, so is that something that you've worked with people on or thought about?

Yeah, there's something— so I joined the International Association for Animal Hospice and Palliative Care, and I just went to their conference a couple months ago, and it was very enlightening. And I think the biggest takeaway I got from the veterinarians was like, It's better a month too early than a day too late to say goodbye to your pet. You know, we're going to have a hard time no matter what, but we want our animals to have quality care. We want them to have, you know, we don't want them to be in pain and suffering. And so it's better to err to say goodbye early than it is late. And so I learned that, but also, um, that, you know, there's a whole specialty of veterinary medicine designed to help with pain relief and end-of-life care for pets. And it's— these are beautiful people that basically devoted their life, you know, to helping animals and have a very hard time. You know, it's hard on them too. I mean, they basically kill for a living. And I mean, I hate to put it that way, it's so blunt, but it's true. And they also experience grief and sadness and Um, you know, it's, it's something I— it's important for me to speak out for, for the veterinarians, that they're doing everything they can to help your animal. Um, you know, and remember that they can't communicate, they can't ask questions like we can when we go to the doctor. And right, they're doing the best they can. And I think sometimes when people get bad news or, um, you know, find out their animal's terminally ill, they take it out on the veterinarian, which is just No, bring it to a support group. Come and join us at Wolfie's Wish and let's talk about it. Yeah. Veterinarians are just, they're just some of the most amazing people.

Do you get people in your support groups that say, I think I did it too early, you know, I should have, I should have held on longer?

No, I mean, that's not my experience, but again, I don't have a lot of I mean, I'm still new at this.

Yeah.

Basically a startup. I'm sure there are people that feel that way. I think they're going to feel guilty no matter what. I think guilt is, I mean, guilt is a natural part of grief, you know.

Yeah.

I went through that. Even though this accident wasn't my fault, I still felt guilty. Like I should have done something or I should have done this different or I should have prevented this or da da da da. We get into these stories.. But at the end of the day, the guilt doesn't help us. And I was able to see that and say, wow, this is really hurting me. This isn't helping at all. So I think I, that's something that I bring to the groups is, you know, they're administered by counselors. I'm not a pet loss counselor. I'm certified in bereavement, but that's really just to be able to talk to people and get them the help they need. So I think acknowledging grief, uh, uh, guilt and, and helping, letting people realize that it it doesn't serve anything. So would you be willing to let it go? Would you be willing to look at alternative ways of looking at what happened?

Yeah. And the reason I asked that question is because in my work, guilt is very common in grief. It's almost universal. We find a way to blame ourselves, whether it's a pet, a person, whatever, whether they died by an accident, if it was cancer, And then, again, because we have that responsibility with our animals, we get to say when we're going to have them euthanized, and how we're going to have them euthanized, because now there's great places that are actually even coming to your house. So now I feel guilty that I took my dog to the vet, you know, it's like, I should have someone come to the house. So we can always find a way to say we could have done it better.. And there is no perfect time. So I know people will say, well, I did it too soon, you know, or maybe I should have done it sooner, you know, after it's over, right? Because now I realize how much pain they were in. So that's a responsibility that as a pet owner that we take on, and we know when we get a pet, we kind of— it kind of comes with the territory.

Yeah, so there are counselors that are designed to help, help people make these decisions and navigate this end-of-life area, because there's a lot of gray area. And when our emotions are involved, it's even harder to think clearly and make good decisions. But I like to remind people that, you know, your pet could have never found a home. Your pet could be, could have been one of the strays or in the shelter. And so you are giving this animal the best life you can, and that's enough. There's no perfect answer. There's no perfect solution. You know, hindsight is 20/20. We do that to ourselves. I say, oh, if I knew what I knew now, when I was 20. Oh yeah, I would be like— that's just part of, I think, humanity, is to overanalyze and to beat ourselves up. I hate to say that, but it's— at least everyone I know would agree with me that there's a part of life that's like that. And to some of it, it's good. We need that. But if it's hurting us or hindering us or, you know, helping making us suffer, it's time to look at it and let it go.

Yes, absolutely. 100%. I completely agree with that. And we can look back and we can always say I could have done something different, or I should have done something different. It's a— but as you said, how is this— how is this serving me? What do you have to think about?

Yeah, what's going to make— what's going to help me get through this and, you know, get on with tomorrow? And that's— that's a process that I had to go through myself. And learned. And I love that I had this experience to, to grow and then to share that with other people has given, you know, my life a lot of meaning. And I liked my job and my life before as a musician. I was always playing at weddings and, you know, in these hospitals, but to, to speak up about pet loss has been, has been a, turned into a gift. I didn't want to do it at first. But now I look at it as, hey, okay, this is, this is really needed. Someone's got to stick their neck out there and say, you know, I didn't want to be here and say all those things that no one wants to say.

Yeah, well, now I'm gonna get to the woo-woo questions. Because this is growth. And if you, you know, we talk about the afterlife and stuff a lot here. You mentioned earlier that you felt like Wolfie was a soul animal. Yeah. Do you feel like this was maybe planned for your life, or that you, you know, do you feel, do you feel wolfly now that he's gone? Do you still have any connection with him?

Yeah, that's a great question and something that I'm still evaluating and trying to navigate. But I do think I was actually just thinking that this morning, like, okay, this, I mean, the way he went, there's just so many things that had to be it's like the perfect storm kind of a thing. And okay, there's got to be a reason for that. And even if I'm making up that there had to be a reason, that helps me, and that's okay with me. Um, to, to be honest, I've been reading a lot of books. Um, I read a lot of self-help books. I like them. I think they're cool, and there's always something to learn in there. I just finished this one by Gabby Bernstein called Super Attractor, and there's a whole chapter in there that's woo-woo. And a little uncomfortable to read, but it's about guardian angels and spirit guides. And I went, okay, uh, he says to just try this on and be open. And so I, you know, kind of did some visualization and meditation around it, and honestly, I felt, um, more connected to Wolfgang than ever. I started having dreams about him. Never have I had a dream about him. I can't explain these things, and that's okay with me. But it sure is interesting and gives me, gives me some peace, which I think is the most important thing.

Well, you know, it's really interesting to me because, you know, most of us believe that humans have souls. I think throughout history, you know, people believe that humans have souls, humans are souls, I think is a better way to put it. But I hear so many people draw a hard line between humans and animals. And you're like, well, humans have souls, but animals don't have souls, you know. And it reminds me, I was watching a show last night, this little girl was— she was speaking to her teacher, she said, humans are animals. And teacher goes, no, humans are not animals. And it's like, well, yeah, we are, we're mammals. We're— so if we believe that humans have souls, why would we not believe that animals have souls, or our souls? And I personally believe that animals are more connected to the other side than we are. That. And if people that have had— I haven't had cats, but I've had dogs. Like, when your dog stares off into space, or your— and I've heard cats do this too— or your cat looks like there's something going across the room, I think they can see into a dimension that, that we can't.

That's really cool to think about, because, you know, we have all this— I don't know, we've got a lot of stuff going on in our heads. And I think animals are just pure. They don't have that, and maybe they are better connected. Um, I definitely feel that, you know, and I think, and I, since I've said this and come out and said it, a lot of people have agreed that they think, you know, their, their animal is something else in an animal's body. Like, there's, there's just more there than, than meets the eye, so to speak. And, uh, and that's okay. You don't have to broadcast it. But it's, it's a special thing.

Yeah, well, again, I don't mean to drag you down there, you know, but for me, when I deal with people with grief, it brings another level of comfort if, if, if you have this belief, you know, and as you said, you pointed out a really good point when it comes to Wolfie's passing. Okay, was it preordained? Was it set up? Did it have meaning in that way? Or Did I create meaning from it? And either way, the result is the same. You're doing this work because of Wolfie being in your life. And you're getting this fulfillment out of this work because of Wolfie being in your life. And just possibly, you know, you mentioned, okay, I read this book, and this is weird, I'm going to explore it. But maybe, maybe you'll have a connection with him that you weren't expecting. So two things, they can both be true. Things can happen randomly and we can create meaning or things might happen for a reason.

I think it can be both. And I've thought about that too. And I said, well, I'm going to choose, I get to choose.

Yes.

I want to do with this information, I get to choose how I want to perceive everything around me. And I choose to think that it happened for a reason. Because that gives me meaning. It gives me something to do with it and turn it around. I could easily, Brian D Smith, have been the person to stay at home and throw a pity party every single day for the rest of my life and tell everyone the sad story of what happened, right? Play a victim. And that's okay too. But I didn't want to live my life that way. I said, oh, I've got to find a way through this. So back to your, back to your comment about, you know, if animals, if animals have souls. Um, one of the veterinarians that I met this past summer at, at one of the conferences said, you know, we had this conversation and she said, you know, when I'm, when I'm euthanizing an animal, I can feel their spirit leave. And I said, what? I was like, tell me more. You're a doctor. Like, what? And she said, yeah, absolutely. Every time I can almost feel their spirit leave their body and kind of dissipate. And I went, that's amazing. And she said, that's what I love about my job, is that I know that I'm doing a service for this animal and helping them and taking them out of any pain or suffering. Isn't that interesting?

Yeah, I think it's very interesting. And so again, I'm not here to force my beliefs on anyone. But I just want people to think, if you believe that people have souls, then what would limit, you know, your dog or your cat from having a soul? They sure act like it, you know. Yeah, it's like my daughter, she was, when she was taking psychology classes in her undergrad, they were, they would debate in their classes whether animals have consciousness. And I would— I'm like, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of course animals have consciousness. You know, it's— to me, it's blatantly obvious that animals have, you know, a similar type of consciousness that we do. And with your— with your vet, I, you know, that doctor you talked about, I had that experience with my dog that we put down a couple of years ago. I was there in the room when she was euthanized, and I felt like I felt her pass through me. You know, as she was, as her spirit was leaving. And I'm not typically the kind of person that feels stuff like that. And it was actually validated by someone else in the room. And a third party later on said that my daughter Shayna, who passed, she was telling me, when you, when you, when Zoe left, Shayna was in the corner of the room and she met her. And my other daughter was in the room, verified that she'd experienced that also. So I, for me, I say I have no doubt that animals, you know, have spirits, are spirits. And you mentioned the Rainbow Bridge earlier. I 100%— I know, I know, it's old now. I know it's tired. It's, you know, but I think it's absolutely true.

That's a— thank you for sharing that story. That's really beautiful and special. And what a wonderful experience to have. I haven't experienced anything like that. But yeah, the Rainbow Bridge is a great metaphor, isn't it? In a more gentle way to talk about pet loss grief. In fact, when Wolfgang died, it was the first time I had heard that term. And really, I said, what? My aunt said it to me. She's like, oh yeah, he's crossed the Rainbow Bridge, like, like, and joined all the other pets. And I was like, what are you talking about? And then there's this poem. And you know, there's all this merchandise on Etsy. I mean, it's just a thing.

It's huge.

Yeah, I've learned so much in the past 2 years, just everything around pets. And, but I really, I still like Rainbow Bridge. I still like it. It's just, I feel like it's a little overdone with pet loss gifts.

Yeah, yeah. You know, the thing about clichés is they're cliché for a reason. And I think that Red's— and I think I tried to look it up a little while ago. Nobody knows where it came from. I could never find an origin for it. But one of my daughters, I forgot which one it was, wrote something very similar, never having seen it. And I think the reason why it's so popular is it resonates with people. I think there's a vestigial memory that we have of like, that's what it's like. And so when people read it, you know, even me thinking about it, and I saw it, I don't even know how many decades ago, probably 20, you know, 20 years ago. But every time I think about it, it just, it resonates with me. And I think that's why people, they like, you know, again, we could say, do people just want to believe that? Or is it something that people kind of feel in their spirit is true?

I don't think it matters. You know, it's this, Jen, it gives me a sense of peace thinking about any animal crossing a rainbow bridge, what a beautiful sendoff, versus this just unknowing, right? And I think that's what makes it stick around, is like, it's this— you get a sense of peace when you think about it. And really, that's all we all want, is we want peace at the end of the day. And it's like, how do we find that? What— and it's different for everybody. And I have no bias against, you know, what people want to do. If they want to talk to a psychic or do tarot or do anything that's, you know, unconventional, and it's gonna give them peace, I say go for it, go for it 100%. And that's been a big change for me, to be open to just about every kind of modality that's going to help somebody. It's at the end of the day, it's how are they going to live the rest of their life? Right. And find joy again. That's what I want.

And I think, yeah, and there, and people have made arguments about, you know, again, going back to animals and their consciousness that, you know, our dogs are probably more enlightened than we are because they live live in the moment. And how many of us are trying to live in the moment, right? We're trying to not, not live in the past or not worry about the future. And you know, your dog's not thinking about anything past dinner.

That's so true. And children are like that too. You know, they, they're just right there in the moment. They don't think about what they ate yesterday or what so-and-so said. Um, wouldn't it be beautiful if we could all live like that?

Yeah.

So I think I wish I could.

Yeah, I think that's one of the— I think that's one of the reasons why we're attracted to our animals. Because again, you know, you know, sometimes I get upset with my dog and I might, you know, yell at her or something. But she doesn't remember it 30 seconds later. You know, she's like, she's over it. She's like, you know, we're moving on.

Yeah, I have a similar story that happened just today.

Oh, really? Tell me about it.

Oh, it's just, you know, it's a funny— I had a funny morning. I spilled a pot of French press coffee before I'd even, like, plunged it. And then I did it again. So I cleaned it up again. And the second time, I just had the biggest tantrum fit screaming at the universe, like, what? What's next? And I scared my cat so bad because Brian D Smith— I was actually, like, throwing stuff around the room. It was such a mess. I was like, well, screw it all. And then I thought, is she going to come back and ever, like, sit in my lap again? Right. That afternoon. She's like, oh, it's time for a nap. Can I sit in your lap?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's, again, I think that's why we love them so much, because it is that unconditional love. It's the lack of judgment. You know, they can, they can see us anyway. And, you know, we don't care, and they don't care. So we have, we have that connection. So I appreciate you exploring this with me, this with me, because I, for me, I think the connection goes on. And I'll tell you one more story, because I would tell this before, but it's really appropriate for this podcast. I have a friend, she happens to be a medium. So she talks to spirits on the other side and stuff. And she's with her husband, or I think it was a boyfriend at the time. And they're visiting another friend. And this guy goes, this damn dog keeps staring off in the corner all the time. I don't understand why this dog's always staring in the corner.

Corner.

And I guess like when they would go over there, he would always talk about his dog staring in the corner. And one day she said, do you want me to tell you why your dog's staring in the corner? And he goes, yeah. And she says, well, there's two dogs, I don't remember their names, and she gives their names, the breed they are. She said, they're over in that corner all the time. That's why your dog's staring at them. And he turns to his friend, who's her boyfriend, and says, did you tell her about these dogs? He goes, no, I've never told her about your dogs. So his dog, his current dog, was perceiving his other dogs who were there still in the shop, you know, playing around. So that's to me, you know, an indication that our pets go on as much as we do. Wow.

Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories about that. I, you know, I've got a Facebook support group and people can post and write about whatever they want. The only rules about being in there is that you can't— you've got to be open-minded and positive. Positive. Yeah, not going to shame anybody or do anything negative. It's a positive environment. And I see, I hear so many cool stories about people that come in and they're so excited. They're like, oh, I just talked to this medium and wow, I feel so much better. And I got all this great information. And they say, I didn't tell that person anything. They already knew. That's so great. Look at, I can feel your energy and that you've really shifted and It's fascinating.

Yeah, it is. It is. So I just, again, I encourage people to, you know, explore and to be, to be open to that possibility. Because for me, that helps a lot with when it comes to dealing with grief. Just that idea of the ongoing connection. But again, back to, back to you and your story. You know, I just, I look at how Wolfie has transformed your life. I mean, the things you're doing, and not just your life but all the people that you're touching, that ripple effect that's going out because you brought— because you brought him in, uh, it's pretty incredible.

Well, I think he found me. I think we found each other, you know, and, and then— and I feel really lucky for that. And it is great when I get— I get emails from people all over the world that somehow, you know, I go to these international trade shows, so stuff gets carried far and wide. And when I this one little boy in Kuwait wrote me and he said, every day after school, I go and visit my cat's grave. He's 10 years old. And he said, I've just, you know, it's been really hard. But he wrote, he wrote, he read this book I wrote called Tales of Spirit Cats, which is what our cats get to do after they've crossed the Rainbow Bridge. And he's like, read that book 6 times. I love it. I cried, you know, and just getting messages like that, that one person you know, got something out of something that I made. Uh, feels really good. And, and to know that he can read that book and laugh and cry and then imagine his own cat doing, you know, adventures like riding the subway or going on vacation. And, um, again, it's all about shifting our energy and what we're focusing on, um, and what's going to help us sleep at night. Sleep was really hard for me for a long time. And it is for other people. And so what, what are the things that are going to help us get there?

Yeah. Well, Erica, thank you so much for, for being here today. I'd like for you to tell people about, because we went through some of your resources, I'd like to, maybe you could give us a summary and where people can find them.

Sure. Well, for anyone that's on Facebook, we've got Wolfie's Wish Pet Loss Support Group. It's a private group. Just answer some questions, be a good person, you can come in. We just started last month having virtual support led by one of 4 counselors who are also admins in that group. And then just at wolfieswish.com, we've got, of course, the gift shop where I write and publish things. Got the coloring books, you know, the grieving card decks. And then there's also the resources page, which has, which has interviews with pet professionals, so you can find one that works for you. Um, we've got a blog, there are references to other support groups and, and resources and books, and it just keeps growing. So I hope Wolfie's Wish will be one of the, you know, one-stop shop websites that people can go to. Um, and I hope more of them spring up. I think pet loss resources are really needed all across the world immediately. So I, and thank you for having me on here because then we get to carry this message farther and wider than me and my mom can. Yeah. So thank you for that.

No, I really appreciate you being here. And I think it is a very valuable and needed resource, again, normalizing the feelings that we have after pet loss and also offering people resources that they can go to. So I'm happy to have you here and happy to have you as a resource for the people that are listening.

Thank you.

All right. Well, thanks a lot for doing this. Have a great rest of your day.

You too.

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