Trauma After Trauma: How Cindy Baumann Defied the Odds and KEPT FIGHTING!

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Today's interview is with Cindy Baumann. Cindy is a self-described grief warrior. And after you listen to this interview, you'll understand why she calls herself a grief warrior. I won't spoil it for you and tell you everything she's been through. But it's been an awful lot, a lot more than most of us go through.. And there were times when Cindy did not want to be here anymore. But Cindy today is happy and thriving. And throughout the interview, she's going to give us tips as to how she got to where she is. And at the end, she delivers a really inspirational message. So after the break, I look forward to hearing the interview.

Hi there, welcome to Grief to Growth Podcast. Your host is Brian D Smith, spiritual seeker, bestselling author, grief survivor, and life coach. Brian believes that the worst tragedies of life provide the greatest opportunity for growth. Brian says he was planted, not buried, and he is here to help you grow where you've been planted by the difficulties in life. In each episode, Brian and his guests will share what has helped them to survive and thrive. It is his sincere hope this episode helps you today.

Everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And today I've got with me Cindy Baumann. And Cindy is a fellow Shining Light parent. And if this is your first time listening, you know what that is. Shine a Light parent is a parent who has a child that's passed on into spirit. So we do have that in common. Cindy is the author of a book called Grief Warrior: Journey of Hope and Courage to the Other Side of Traumatic Loss. She's also a grief to gratitude coach. She's a life coach. And she's a career transition coach. So Cindy's done quite a bit in her life. And I've read her book. It's a fantastic book, a great story of courage, and overcoming very difficult circumstances that we're going to be talking about today. So with that, I'd like to welcome to Grief to Growth, Cindy Baumann.

Thank you, Brian. It's an honor to be a guest on your podcast. I've listened to several. And like I said, it's an honor to be on your show today. So thank you. And I noticed when I read your book, which was fantastic, that we have many similarities in our journey, which I'm sure we will be talking a little bit about today?

Yeah, absolutely. I would love to talk about that. And so everybody knows, I said, yeah, I do have— I got her book. And it took me a while to get through it because I was telling her, I don't, I don't get a chance to read very often. And but I am so glad that I did read your book. It's a really well-told story about your life. And we do have a lot in common. And I think all of us have things that we have to overcome in life. And all of us are warriors in a certain sense. So what I'd like for you to do, Cindy, to start us off is tell us your story quickly, like in, in your own words, and take as much time as you like.

Sure. Well, I like to refer to it as I thought my life, or my life was perfect. And I didn't even take the time to realize it at the time. And then one day, my life stopped, and everyone else's around me kept going. My son Sean was accidentally shot in a hunting accident in Wisconsin over Thanksgiving weekend. He had just gotten married in August of that year, so he'd been married 3 months. Um, they had lived in Madison, Wisconsin, which was just a couple hours away from us, and we were lucky that they were home to visit us almost every weekend. So thinking this was a normal weekend for them to come home, we, you know, we did our normal Thanksgiving festivities. And he decided— I went shopping with my sisters that next day. It was the typical Black Friday in Wisconsin. And I went shopping. And I talked to him a couple times throughout the day. He called me because we communicated a lot. And our last conversation, I'll never forget where it was. I was actually shopping for boots.. And we had just a routine little conversation. And if I would've known that was gonna be our last conversation, obviously it would've gone differently. And then my day continued to, you know, I continued shopping, expected that he would be home when I got there. And when I got home, my other son said, you had just missed Sean. And I'm like, Miss John, where, where did he go? And he said, well, he decided last minute to go hunting with a couple other people. His brother would be one of them and his father, which at the time was, which is my ex-husband. So they went hunting up in northern Wisconsin. And I didn't realize he was going, he was not much of a gun hunter, he was more of a bow hunter. So that night, we, you know, it was just a normal— we went out to dinner with my sisters. It was just kind of a normal night. Woke up the next morning, I made everyone Sean's favorite breakfast, which was— which, if you haven't had this, it's awesome— um, waffles with peanut butter and bananas and maple syrup. Amazing. And then they left to go to my parents' house and retrieve their children. And I jumped in the shower. So as soon as I got out of the shower, my phone rang, and it was my daughter-in-law, not Sean's wife, but my son, my other son's wife, called me and said, there's been a terrible accident. And my heart just sank, and I didn't even want to know what it was. And I just knew that both of my boys were hunting. And she said, it's Sean. And I just, I didn't want to know anymore. I just said, call Julia, which was his wife. And she was at her parents like 2 hours or 2 minutes, 2 miles, excuse me, 2 miles away from us. So my poor little 16-year-old son who just got his license drove and we picked her up and her mom and her dad and brother followed us. And my husband was out hunting in a different party. So he had no idea this happened. So he— they picked us up and my daughter-in-law had told us that they were going to airlift him to this hospital. So we headed to this hospital, which was about 45 minutes away. And on the way to the hospital, I was curled up in the front seat. Julia was with her mom in the back. And all of a sudden, it was one of these normal Wisconsin gray days. We have a lot of those. And something pulled my attention to the sky, which I couldn't even focus. And all of a sudden, out of this gray day was this beam of sun coming through the clouds. And my— I had this feeling that that was my son leaving. And I didn't want to believe that. But this feeling, this just— why would I even look? So we get to the hospital. And he didn't show, he didn't show. The chaplain there was, was kind of rude to us. And they put us in this tiny room. And in a little bit, she came, she told me to calm down. Like, I can't calm down. So then she came into this room a little bit later. And she said, your son won't be coming. I'm like, what do you mean he won't be coming? She said he didn't make it.

Wow.

And we just fell to the floor. And sawed. We could not even move. And we had really no idea what we were— what journey we were about to embark on. As you understand this, Brian D Smith, it was just one day everything was good, and then the next day it wasn't. So we headed home, back to— on our 45-minute drive home. And we just got home, and I got a call from my sister And she said, you have to come to the hospital where, where Shawn is at, where they took him, because I knew he was shot in this little desolate area in Wisconsin. So I knew he went to the small hospital. So I guess the whole time when I heard of the accident, I was nervous because I knew he was a long ways from healthcare. So anyway, now we started on this journey and our journey to this other hospital. My poor son again had to drive, and again my eyes were drawn to the sky, and I saw the most vibrant sunset to this day I have seen. And we have some beautiful sunsets in Wisconsin, but this one was just unbelievable. And as much as it was beautiful, it was painful. And then we get to the hospital. And the minute we got there, I knew I was there. And I said, I am not walking in. I am not walking in those doors. And they started to kind of pull me. And I got to the door and I braced myself on the edge. And, you know, his wife was with— was crying uncontrollably. And I said, I can't, I can't, I can't walk in. If I walk in, I have to admit this is true. And basically, they drug me in. And, you know, that's when the nightmare continued. And, you know, the feeling of feeling your child when the life was completely out of them, you know, seeing him, feeling that that coldness. Tracing his, you know, fingers, looking at every little piece of him was just so painful. And he, you know, I remember looking at him thinking, you know, he had these beautiful, long, thin hands, and his, he was going, actually, when he was killed, he was studying for med school to become a doctor. So he wanted to help others. So that, you know, that kind of— that was just— there was just so many things in my mind. And after going through this, I just— I had suffered multiple traumas in the past. And I was really good. I talked about this in my book, but I was really good at putting them in this box, stuffing them nice and tight and putting them on the shelf. And I was always optimistic, positive. And when this happened, that box came down, it hit me in the head. And I had to unpack all of those different years of trauma before I could deal with the loss of my son. So that was the start of my journey.

Yeah. Yeah, I, I I'm sorry for your loss. And I can say that as you're telling us, I can, I can so relate. For me, I remember the moment— for you, it was a moment walking into the hospital where Sean's body was. For me, it was a moment leaving the hospital after they told us Seamus wouldn't be coming with us. And that, that feeling of turning your back and walking out the door, I will never forget it. And so for anyone who hasn't experienced that, It's just, you, like you said, it's like your life is one way one moment. And then the next moment, it's completely different.

Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

And it'll never go back to being the same again.

And in your book, and I know you touched on it briefly, but in your book, you talked about you did have some traumas before this happened with Sean, you had, you know, other things in your life that had happened. And then so you know, that those things kind of accumulated, you said, and then we have to we have to deal with them at some point, I guess, is what you discovered. Is that correct?

Right. Yeah, you can't stuff the grief in your life. You have to deal with it. You think you can stuff it, but at some point it, you know, comes to the surface and it must be dealt with. And I had multiple traumas. When Sean was a baby, he had cancer, and he went through years of hell. And chemotherapy, radiation, major surgeries, didn't think he was going to live. And he beat all the odds. He grew up to be, you know, he was only 3 months old when he was diagnosed. So he fought that till he was 3 years old. And once he, you know, beat that, I was just so grateful that God allowed me to keep him. So when he was, was taken, it was just so hard because I couldn't understand why. So, you know, I had that trauma. Um, I lost my first house in our first marriage to fire, so a complete loss. Um, we ended up, after all the different hardships we went through in life, we ended up divorced. Another loss. And then, you know, I moved to a new city, kind of started over. Few years later, got remarried, had a couple children, life was going pretty good. And then we had a brand new home, lost that to fire again. I mean, how can this happen twice? And I, you know, I just lived with— I remember after the first one, I couldn't even fall asleep at night because I was so afraid. So then after this one, you know, it was just another, another thing to deal with. And I remember thinking after all of these incidences in my life, you know, it's still— it was stuff, it was things I had to go through. But we have each other. I didn't lose any of my family. And then when we lost Sean, I couldn't get past that. I couldn't get past that. And then, you know, 2 years later, I ended up with breast cancer. And I believe it's because I willed myself to die. I did not want to live any longer in this, this world. I wanted to be with Sean, escape the pain that was in my heart every day. So that, and that brings us to a long journey of counseling.

Yeah.

I did. I read so many things. I was on a spiritual and religious search. I wanted answers. So I read so much. And I prayed, even though I was angry at God for the longest time. And finally, when I got to a low of big low in my life where I was ready to end it. I— God spoke to me that day, and he said, you are not done. You cannot end it this way. You know, there is so much to learn and people to heal. And this is not your time and not you. You're not done.

Yeah.

So at that point, I thought, you know what, I have to figure this out. So which led me down the road of EMDR therapy, which is Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. So that's how I started that.

Yeah, I want to, you know, you know, Cindy, so we all go through, through traumas in life. And it seems like some of us, I don't know how your feeling is about whether God puts us on it, or we choose it. I'll leave that, I'm going to get back around to that question. But You know, you, you seem— you're such a strong person, and you bounce back. And I'm— as I'm reading your book, I'm like, okay, now she's going through this, and now she's going through this. So with Sean, that was kind of like— and you talk about it in your book, you said you were ready to take your life, you actually started to take your life at one point. But then you said you, you felt like God stopped you. Is that right?

Yes, yes, I do. I do feel like he stopped me, and I, I had to realize what I had in my life. And I just, I just felt him, you know, telling me I wasn't done. And I realized, how can I do this to my other children? Will they think I love them less? You know, I can't do that. And I have to figure this, this out, this mystery.

Yeah.

Because I think life and death are both a mystery.

Yeah. And I can— I so appreciate you being so honest and raw with your, with your journey. Because again, as a parent, I think it's almost universal. When our child leaves before we do, we— our instinct is to go with them. I think especially for mothers. I'm not a mother. But, you know, I'm very close to my daughters. And, you know, your instinct is to protect them and to be with them. And when, when you have multiple children, that complicates that, right? Like you just said, you can't, you can't be with both at the same time. At least not in a physical sense.

Right, right. True. I was living with one foot on earth and one in heaven. Yeah, I had to make a choice. On where I wanted to, you know, to plant myself. Where did I want to live? And along with that choice, I had to embrace life again. Yeah, you know, Brian, that's a tough— that's tough. There are days you don't want to do that.

Yes, yes, absolutely true. So you, you found EMDR. So tell me how that went with, with the EMDR.

Well, EMDR, um, my counselor had talked about it before, and I honestly felt at the time we— it was a couple years in, a few years into my, um, counseling before we did it, which I think was good because we processed so many other things in my life that I had this, this trust built up with my counselor. And EMDR can be very painful. I mean, it's healing, but it's painful. And it basically got to the point where my PTSD in my life was unmanageable. I lived with heightened fear and anxiety all the time. I was afraid of the world. It got to the point where sometimes I was afraid to leave my house. And, you know, I would hear an ambulance, hear a fire truck, and I could just feel my body just shaking. So I knew it was time to do something if I was going to choose to embrace this, this life I had left to live and be a parent to my children and a spouse to my husband. I was driving him crazy. So we embarked on this process, and it took several months. And my counselor said, what he really wanted to do was start with one of the traumas, not the loss, but one of the fires. He said, first we have to kind of poke a hole in the balloon. We can't start with the major loss right away. So we started with one of the fires, and what EMDR really does is it takes you back to that event, and you're kind of reliving the event, and you're walking through that pain. And in that pain, when, when they feel that you're kind of at a point where you can't really handle it, they start with this bar of lights, and your eyes kind of track this bar of lights back and forth, you know, back and forth. And, and then you get— I remember experiencing my very first ever panic attack, the first of many, during a session. And then when he feels that you're, you know, you're really at a spot where you— like, I couldn't breathe, I could not breathe— well, then he brings you to a happy place. And to me, a happy place was walking on the beach. So that's where I went back to and tried to, you know, he tried to calm me because I felt like I was hyperventilating and I wanted like a paper bag to put over my mouth. And I remember sitting in the chair during the first session, and my counselor was on the third floor, and I looked out his window and wanted to jump. I wanted to jump out of that window. I want— because I could feel the grief crawling out of my body. I could just literally feel it crawling out of my body, my skin. I was rubbing my, my arms. I was rubbing my legs, my foot on my leg. I was getting sick. Everything was just coming out of me and I was a mess. So after I left that first session, I thought, I can't do this. I can't go back and deal with the worst loss. So that next day, my counselor called me to check in. And asked how I was. I'm like, I can't come back. I can't. And he said, Cindy, I know this is really, really hard, but I believe if you stick with me, it will help you. It will help your PTSD. And I guess I needed to see what did that really mean. So I said, well, on a scale of 1 to 10, where do you see my PTSD? And where do you think you can get me? He said, well, on a scale of 1 to 10, I see you at a 9. And if you work hard and stick with me, he goes, I think I can get you to a 4. He goes, I can't make it all go away. Life has been, you know, has thrown these different things in your path, and I can't take them all away from you, but I can help you get better. So that night I went to bed and I just prayed for some guidance on what to do. And the next morning I decided, okay, I either live like this and I'm driving my family crazy and I don't like myself, or I, I take this, this journey through EMDR and see if it helps my life? What do I have to lose? So I continued, you know, I continued. And we spent a lot of time walking through the loss, several sessions on the loss, because I had to go to the hospital. And I did, you know, I was touching my son, and I could— interesting session I had is when I was dealing with the loss of my son, and I was at the hospital. I could like feel his— I could almost feel his spirit, like leaving. And I remember reaching for it. I was reaching for it with my hand. And I could feel him holding my hand. And I could feel the grip letting go as he was leaving me. And it was just complete. I mean, it was horrible. But yet, it was healing. And it just brings me to tears now when I, when I think about that, because I could just like, I could, I was reaching for him in this therapy's office, you know, the counselor's office during therapy. And it was just, oh.

So you mentioned that you were, you were a 9 on the PTSD scale when you started, and your counselor thought he'd get you to a 4. Where do What would you say you are now?

I think he got me to a 4. I mean, yes, I still deal with anxiety and certain things, but it doesn't control me. And when I get in that state, I don't stay there for a long time. Yeah, because it, you know, it makes dealing with the other things you go through— grief, um, worse. Like, for example, um, dealing with regret, you know, that That's a big one. The shoulda, coulda, wouldas. Oh my goodness.

Yeah, let's talk about those.

Oh, the shoulda, coulda, wouldas. Oh my goodness. So the shoulda, coulda, wouldas occupied me way longer than they should have. And, you know, we all have these. After I lost my son, this, this regret, this, I can't make it right anymore. I can't say all the things I wanted to say to him. I can't do the things I wanted to do for him. Was I a good enough mother? Why didn't I come home early and stop him from going hunting? You know, did I help him enough? I felt so bad he had to go through a divorce. And the horrible cancer he went through. I mean, I wish I could have taken that all away. You know, and as a mother, the day he died, even though he was 100 miles away from me, part of me felt like I should have protected him. So I had so much to deal with. And I remember just getting stuck on this hamster wheel. And I would go round and round and round and process and reprocess this stuff over and over and over again, beating myself up constantly, forgetting I was human. And, you know, everybody has regrets in their life. And I also had to be— I had to re— it took research and people who I've reached out to, but then I realized I could still make things right. He was not here physically, but I could still make things right. And I know, Brian, you understand that.

I do. And I, and I really wanted you to, to talk about that because, um, I think that's a— that's pretty much a universal thing for a parent that has had a child pass. I, I've worked with lots of parents, and I don't remember— I haven't worked with one yet that hasn't found some way to blame, blame themselves. Um, it's just, it's a natural human thing. And I want people to understand that when you're going through that, you think you're unique. Um, we're all— that's one way we're all pretty much the same. And, you know, as I read your book and as I hear you talk about your relationship with Obviously, you're a fantastic mother and you made him waffles with peanut butter and bananas and maple syrup for breakfast. But we find a way to say, "It's my fault. My grown son went on a hunting trip, but I should have protected him." And for us outside, we realize that sounds silly. We would say, if your friend told us that, we would say, "Well, no, obviously it's not your fault." But we say that to ourselves.

Yes.

You know, and then as I, as I read that in your book, and as I hear you saying that, I'm like, yeah, everybody does that.

Yes, yes, yes. And, and once I realized that I could still, you know, make these wrongs right with him in some way, I started out by, well, I journaled a lot. But journaling was a way of me putting my thoughts on paper. And then I get— I got to a different version of that later. But I journaled a lot. I wrote him a letter. I remember sitting across from him, putting two chairs and pretending he was sitting there, holding my hands out, and just pouring my heart out and telling him how sorry I was. And there was a sense of peace that kind of came with that, like, okay, okay, he hears me, he understands. He knows, I believe there was a part of him that thought losing him would almost kill me, because he knew how much I loved him and how close we were. But then I finally learned a technique called soul writing. And I started where I would go through a short meditation, and meditation was not an easy thing for me, I still struggle with it. So when I say short, I would start with a short meditation. And just kind of clear my mind. And, you know, ask for whether I was writing to God or to Shawn, because I did both. I would ask Shawn to come in and help me. And then I would just write a question. And without really thinking about it, without analyzing it, I would just write the responses, everything that came to me, I would write. I wouldn't worry about spelling, grammar, I would just kind of let it go. And I would write until things stopped. And then maybe I would write another question. And then I would put it away. And then if I pulled it out the next day and read it, I'm like, oh my goodness. That was definitely him communicating with me. He was, he was communicating with me. I believe it, you know, it's kind of a form of automatic writing. Where he was talking to me through the pen. And I was able to get a lot of peace from that. That— so that really, really helped me on my journey. And it gave me a chance to let go of some of those things that, that were holding me and hold many people back, are the regrets.

Yeah, I get— I think that's almost universal. I, I've talked to so many people that have gone through that. And you know what, I love what you said though, that it's, it's never too late. You know, sometimes people say, well, I can't say the things to them that I want to say because he can't hear me. But these techniques you talk about, the automatic writing and the sitting with the, with him in a chair across from you, and you, you said pretending he's in a chair and across from me, and I kind of smiled when you said that because I believe he, he is in a chair across from you. Um, I've had many mediums that have told me, and people that aren't mediums, I'll walk in the room and people that are, that are psychic will say, who's the little girl that's following you around? And it's like, and I've been hearing this for the last 6 years. And so I know that Shayna is still with me, you know, all the time, which is why she's in my picture, you know, behind me, because it's just a reminder when I, when I'm doing this, that, you know, Shayna is still here. And Sean is still with you, and all of our kids are still with us. And They want us to be happy.

Yes. Yeah, I love, I love that. Every time you walk in a room, she's, she's with you. So true. Beautiful girl.

We'll get back to Grief to Growth in just a few seconds. Did you know that Brian D Smith is an author and a life coach? If you're grieving or know someone who is grieving, his book Grief to Growth is a best-selling, easy-to-read book that might help you or someone you know. People work with Brian D Smith as a life coach to break through barriers and live their best lives. You can find out more about Brian D Smith and what he offers at www.grieftogrowth.com, www.grief2growth.com, or text growth, G-R-O-W-T-H, to 31996. If you'd like to support this podcast, visit www.patreon.com/grieftogrowth, www.patreon.com/grief2growth to make a financial contribution. And now back to Grief to Growth.

So how did you— how did you get to the point, you know, the EMDR sounds like it helps you with the trauma. But that, that next step of like, Sean is still with me, Sean can still hear me, I can still communicate with him. How did you get to that point?

Um, well, I guess, oh, well, okay. In my, one of my darkest hours, I remember, are you familiar with the old Hay House radio show?

I'm not sure.

Okay. They used to have— it used to be a Hay House Radio used to have different guests. And for example, a lot of the different mediums were on there. A lot of different healing modalities were on there. Cheryl Richardson, Robert Holden. And I used to— again, I was on this search.. And so this was kind of like my spiritual search.

Mm-hmm.

So whatever I did, I would listen to Hay House. I remember ironing and I would listen to Hay House, walking, I would listen to Hay House. Yeah, I used to iron way back when, and I would listen to Hay House. And I used to love listening to Robert Holden. He wrote a lot of different books on happiness and Shift Happens. And I just, I guess, just listening to him, he gave me like, a good feeling. He gave me hope. So I emailed him. I reached out through his site once and I thought, oh yeah, this is, you know, I've done this before. No, no, I don't get a response. But I emailed Robert and he's responded to me. And it was just amazing because he reminded me that, you know, love never does end. And our relationship, once we lose someone, our relationship is still there. It just changes. You know, it's not, it's not physical, it's spiritual. And it was just, you know, that our bonds are, our bonds are together forever. And it just really helped me to, to feel that he was really, really there with me. It was just another, you know, I had a few things happen, but that was just one that kind of like, okay, I have to change the way I build this relationship with him. So Robert Holden was just a blessing to me. And I was grateful when he wrote the foreword to my book. Yeah, that was, you know, and he, I think he did a great job referring to the monopoly of life. So then I also, and I had many signs along the way. And at first I just was like, you know, growing up the way I did, I was like, how do I believe this? Is this really happening? Is this right? But when I think back to early on when I lost him, this sounds crazy. And it's really hard to describe. I had a hard time describing this in my book. But he literally— Shawn, I could feel Shawn literally shaking my heart. I could feel him inside shaking me, my heart, almost like he was trying to keep it beating. And like he was telling me, I'm still here, Mom, I'm still here with you. And it was just an unbelievable feeling. And then I had these little blue angels, like just a few inches tall, on my dresser. And I would cry. And those angels, you know, I had them on and those angels would get brighter. And the harder I cried, the brighter they would get. And my light was like filled with this blue light. And I just knew that it had to be him. And then of course, there were these pennies that showed up in unusual places. That seemed to be my thing was the pennies and the numbers 111, 1111. I can't tell you how many times I still to this day, I'll look at the clock. And don't ask me why, I just, you know, I'm nudged to look at the clock. There it is. I said, thank you, Shawn. Thanks for being with me today. I always thank him. And there were just, you know, other things where he mentioned something to me, and I talked about it in my book about thinking there was this— looking for this blue horse, and it was not a blue horse, but it was clear as day that he had, you know, said this to me. And then that dream visit, and, and I'm sure, you know, you can, you can relate to this. There's a dream, and there's a dream visit. And this dream, I don't— I didn't— I have to say, I haven't had many dream visits. But you never forget a dream visit. And this one I had, I remember it was like on New Year's Eve. And I had went to bed, and it was probably New Year's Day when the dream happened, because I kind of woke up and then I went back to sleep. And it was just maybe a year or two after he left, he was gone. So the first, after the first full year, and all of a sudden, he was there and he was in his wedding tux. And he was holding my shoulders. And he goes, Mom, I know how hard this has been on you. I know how hard and I'm so sorry. I know how hard it is but we will be together again. And I said, but when, when? And the reason I know that this knowledge that he shared wasn't from him is because he would never use these words. He said, I don't know when you are slated to come. Like we're on a slate, you know, like we're slated to come. And he hugged me and I could just feel him hugging me. And then I woke up. And of course, you don't want to wake up, you want to go back to bed. You know, those words just slated to come.

Hmm.

Interesting.

Yeah. Well, as you're saying, I got goosebumps as you were describing the dream visit. And you're right, when you have those, you know, I don't have as much as many as I used to have. But I would always get so excited when I would see Shane, I'd wake myself up. So I had to learn to try to like, okay, stay calm, you know, when I would see her. But there's something about it that you just know that, you know, you're having an actual, you know, visit with them and they're usually very brief. Yes. And they're— but they can kind of carry you through. So you had the EMDR and you have the communication with Sean. You talk about your faith, your faith in God. And so tell me about what that's been like over the, over the years as you've gone through all this.

Oh, wow. It's a good question, Brian. Well, first of all, I grew up Catholic, you know, very traditional Catholic family. I sent my youngest two to Catholic school. You know, we weren't like crazy religious all the time in our house, but we were— we believed in God. We went to church, we prayed. Just, just pretty traditional Catholic upbringing. And when we lost Sean, I couldn't believe God could do that. Why would he do that to us? I thought we were doing everything right. You know, why would he just take him? So I was angry, very angry. And it took me a long time to get past that. But it did push me on this spiritual journey, where I read about all kinds of different religions. I read all kinds of medium books, just a variety. And it just opened my mind up past my little world. And it made me more receptive to what was out there. And I remember people, a couple people had kind of judged me for seeking a medium and, you know, telling me that was the devil speaking. And I guess first of all, if you— if, if anyone's listening to this and they haven't lost a loved one, but you know of somebody that has, please don't judge them. Please don't judge them. People— if, if you lose a child, you are so desperate for communication. People who have their children can communicate with them, whether it's a text message, a phone call, whatever. All the time. But when you lose a child, that ends. And you will do anything for communication with your child. And for the most part, my experience with different mediums has been all good. Yes, I've had some that weren't that good. But for the most part, it's been good. They brought me peace. I, they knew things that they wouldn't know if my son wasn't communicating with them. So I guess I looked at it as, how can God be angry if it brings you peace and gives you healing? So after going through my journey, you know, I— it brought me back around where at first I wasn't sure, do I believe in God? And now, yes, I believe in God. I have a strong faith. I believe he walks with us. I believe he helps us through this. And I believe we will see our children again. So that's kind of, you know, but it took me a while to get back to that point.

Yeah. And I wanted to ask you that question about faith, because I think that's a very— it's an interesting thing, because a lot of people say they have faith in God, but it is I call it the Sunday school faith or the, or the Santa Claus faith, that if I do all the right things, then God will do good things for me. And when you have that type of, that type of faith, and the first thing that happens when someone's taken from us is either I did something wrong, or God let me down, you know, and that anger, or, or I have another friend that just says, okay, I'm just, I don't believe in God anymore. God must not exist, because God wouldn't let this happen. And I think it's a very, very common response. And I love your, your resiliency to say you didn't leave with that, but that anger at God. And that's important that people again, understand that some of the things we go through are pretty much universal. And for a lot of people, it is that anger, that anger at God. Why did you, why did you let me down? How could you let this happen to, to me?

Yes, yes. And at the time, my priest, I reached out to my priest, he came to my house, he was really, really good. But I remember feeling after the funeral, I can't even go back to church, I can't go back to church and sit where my son was, and just too many memories. And, you know, he was, bless his little heart, he said to me, Cindy, even the Bible says there's a time to be together. A time to be apart. He said, you are on a spiritual journey like no other. And who knows where it'll take you. So you know what, I think back to that many times, because that was a lot for him to say back then to me. I had no pressure. He didn't force me to go to church. He didn't make me feel guilty. So I was able to do my own thing and come to my own understanding.

So reflecting back on it now with the different things you've been through in your life, how do you feel about them now? I mean, we talked about some of the trauma you've been through. What's your reflection as you look back on it now? On God, or on— do you think it's a plan? Do you think it's random? Do you— how do you feel about like, do you still ask yourself, like, why did this all happen to me as opposed to somebody else?

Well, gosh, I asked that question a lot in the beginning. But then I thought, well, how unfair for me to want it to ever— I don't want it to happen to anybody. But I really struggled with that.

Why?

Why did this happen? Is it part of a plan? You know, are our days numbered. And honestly, everybody comes to their own understanding. But this is what I had to kind of believe. And this is where I, where I kind of landed was my son. And I'm not just saying this because he wasn't here. He was a good, compassionate young man. He cared about everyone. He was the glue. He was the brother everybody went to. He, you know, I remember his father-in-law at the funeral in the eulogy said, you can always tell the way a man is going to treat his wife by the way he treats his mother. And he had an unbelievable bond with his mother. And, you know, he did with his father as well. But I guess I believe that he, you know, he went through the divorce with grace. He did every— he went through his treatment with grace. He wanted to become a doctor to help kids. And I feel that whatever he was put on this earth to do, he completed it. So I had to come to terms that if it wasn't that day in the woods, because I could get hung up on that a long time. Yeah, it wasn't that day in the woods that, you know, that accident, the people who accidentally shot him What if he died in another, in another way? What if he died in a car accident? Would have it been something else? I had to tell myself that he completed his plan on this earth. He went to the school, to Earth School, and he learned what he was supposed to learn. And God took him home. So that's what I believe. And I believe when I finally figure all this out, I'll get there too.

Yeah. I do want to ask you about the accident. And I'm gonna ask you about forgiveness, because again, these are a couple things that I think are universal, and they apply to all of us. You know, we always find a way to assign blame when our children pass. So it could be the person who sold our child the drug, it could be the drunk driver, it could be the doctor that didn't do the right thing, it could be ourselves, you know, etc. I had never heard of the type of hunting that your son was doing. So how did you come to grips with, and/or have you, with the men that were involved in this? And without taking you through too much of the trauma, describe the type of hunting that they were doing, because I'd never heard of this.

Okay, sure. And no worries taking me through the trauma. I've been through it many times. Yeah. So Sean was So in Wisconsin, they do what, you know, they, they hunt during hunting season, which is around Thanksgiving. And they have this one part of hunting called deer drives. So what that is, is people place these hunters on posts. And then the, another group of hunters drive the deer to them. It's crazy. It's crazy. And I will tell you that my son never liked it. He was always nervous about it. It was almost like he had this knowing. So the fact that he went was kind of a surprise to me that day. But, but he went. And, you know, he went to be part of the group and have fun and the camaraderie with the guys. And so it was the last drive of the day. And in speaking to his dad, which is my ex-husband, you know, he, my ex-husband said, you know, he just wasn't feeling right about, about something. And he said to the, the, the kids, he says, this is going to be it. They weren't kids anymore, but this, adults, this is going to be it. After this, we're done. So this was the last drive. And Sean was placed in a spot. And what happened was you know, as the deer were coming through the woods, the hunter next to him shot. And I don't know if he heard something and shot or what happened, but he shot and hit my son. Now, I struggled with why did it have to be right there? Why couldn't have it been in the arm? Why couldn't have it been in the leg? Why did it have to be in that spot? No, and why couldn't God have had him bend down and tie his shoe or just something? But he hit him right in the spot where, you know, he was instantly killed. So for a long time, I struggled with the person who set the drives up, who placed everybody where they were supposed to be. Because I I felt that maybe that wasn't right. And the shooter who, you know, and I guess it took me a long time to come to that place of forgiveness. How do I forgive them? They took my son's life and in that split second, but what I finally realized was it was more about understanding that they didn't intentionally take my kill, want to kill my son that day. It was an accident. So I know that it was an accident. So that's where, where I was able to come to my forgiveness. But before I had to do that, I had to forgive myself. And I remember a friend said to me, he was a good, good friend. And he tried to kind of like help me through this. And he said, you know, Cindy, you can't heal till you forgive yourself. And I looked at him and I thought, forgive myself? Why do I have to forgive myself? I wasn't even involved. But I realized he was right. Because I felt this— I should have protected him. Even though I wasn't even there, I should have protected him. And I just, you know, as a parent, I feel that all we want to do is protect our children. So I had to do that. And then I was able to forgive the people, understanding that it wasn't intentional.

Yeah. Wow.

That's tough.

Yeah. As you said that, something just came to me, because I've often wondered, why is it we beat ourselves up so much? And like I said, it's almost universal. And I think I just— it dawned on me when you said that. It's, it's punishment. We feel like we're— we haven't forgiven ourselves, so we punish ourselves. So we say, I can't feel good. I can't be happy. I don't deserve to be happy. You know, I deserve all this, all this stuff that we do to ourselves. Because it's— I see it so often. And I think what your friend said is very profound. It's like, we can't start to heal until we forgive ourselves. And even if it's not a conscious feeling, I think it's there subconsciously, as a parent. And I remember thinking, because I had to give Shayna an injection, she had rheumatoid arthritis. So I had to give her injection every couple of weeks. And I'd given her the injection on Monday and she passed on a Wednesday or Tuesday, overnight on Tuesday. And I thought, you know, did I do something wrong, you know, with the injection? And, you know, and she was, she was seeing a cardiologist, so should we have taken her back to the cardiologist? And was it his fault that he missed something? And, you know, you go through all those different things trying to find someone or something to blame, um, without just being able to say, like you said earlier, I'm only human. And, you know, we do what we can do.

Right.

So let's talk about where you are, where you are today. I mean, you're a grief to gratitude coach. I know you were a very successful entrepreneur before all this. So how did you get to being what you're doing now?

Well, going through the loss of my son, and I know you, you can relate, many parents who have lost a child can understand. That your identity changes. Who you were before the loss is not who you are today. Therefore, your priorities change. You know, I was building a business, climbing the ladder. I have to admit, I mean, I had fun doing it. I loved being part of this group, I had an ad agency and we— it was a fun business. We had a great team. I had a good partner and it was fun. But after I lost my son, my passion just was gone. I felt like I spent way too much of my life working, which I did. That's one of my regrets. I, I worked way too much through all of my children. And I tell the story just because it's kind of cute. But one January day, my son, he was young, called me at work. And it was after, I don't know, it was like 6:30 or 7 o'clock. He called me at work and he goes, Mom. And I'm like, yes, Justin. He goes, did you forget your New Year's reservation? Knowing he meant resolution, I'm like, oh yes, Justin, I will be right home. Because he knew that I promised to be home by 6 o'clock. So, you know, it was just those things. And all of that came back to me. And I thought, okay, I spent way too much time working, I have to refocus. So spent some time kind of trying to figure this out. And there was only so much I could do because I had a business to run with my partner. So eventually we sold the business. I worked part-time for the new employers while I kind of worked on my coaching and expanded my knowledge in those areas and then started writing my book. So today it's— my goal today is to help others there is beauty and joy on the other side of this. And I want to help others who are struggling find that. Helping others heal is the most, you know, satisfying— I think satisfying thing you can do is to see that person move forward in their grief. So that's kind of what I still pray for an MDE, because I've always prayed for a near-death experience that I never got. But I thought, how cool would that be to have an NDE, just so I could see what my son's life was like. But I still pray for that. But yet, I am— yeah, it's— my life is good now.

Well, I will tell you, I've interviewed lots of people have NDEs, and one thing they always say is do not pray for an NDE. Oh, give you that little bit of advice for the tip. Yeah, it's You know, and I've said the same thing myself before I studied it as much as I have now. It can be very, very traumatizing. They end up with, you know, all kinds of issues. The great thing is to study NDEs. That's, that's the, that's the thing.

I've read many.

Study NDEs. But I understand what you're saying. Because, you know, I sometimes can be envious of my friends that are mediums. I have a really good friend that she's like, we talk all the time. And she always said to me, I wish I could give you my third eye so you could see what I see, because she actually sees my daughter. And she's like, I see Shayna sitting here on my bed, I see her doing this. And so I, for you, for me, I just have to take it on faith, right? I'm like, okay, I have to, I have to believe that she's here when you tell me that she's here. And she, but she's told me like stuff that's in Shayna's room. So I know she knows what's going on, right? So it's I love, I love what you call yourself. And I haven't heard this before, Grief to Gratitude Coach. So, you know, it's one thing to say, we can heal. But that implies even more than that. So what, why did you choose the word gratitude?

Well, it's a program. So it's a program that I signed up for. So I'm not responsible for the name of it, Grief to Gratitude. But, uh, Dora Carpenter is the, the person that runs this coach certification program. And I guess what it— the gratitude part of it is, you know, we, we try to encourage gratitude in your life because, you know, it's how important it is, and sometimes it's hard to find it. And we encourage embracing life again. So those, you know, you start out with this heavy grief, and you want to bring the person to a healing place of embracing life, wanting to live life, and being grateful for what they have. So that's kind of part of the program. In a quick summary.

Yeah, no, I love that. That's— it's taken me a long time to get there. Probably it's been 6 and a half years since Shayna passed, and probably took me 3 or 4 years to get to the point where I really embraced how important gratitude is, because I was resistant before that. I'm like, oh, this is a bunch of crap. And how is this really going to help? But now it's something I do every day. Before I get out of bed, I always think of 3 things that I'm grateful for. That's, that's a practice. That's a minimal, that's just a start. Because it's, it's, it's the only way to get through what, you know, we've got there. I mean, you could look at your life and say, why do I have to go through all this? You know, I should, I should be done by now. Frankly, you know, again, once these things happen, like, you know, with Sean's cancer, when he's like 3, you probably thought, okay, we're good. We're good. Now I've paid our dues.

Right? Right. Yes. I felt the same way you did about gratitude for several years as well. It took me a while, because yeah, every— you read gratitude, you're like, gratitude. Come on. Seriously. So when I write about it in my book, I talk about the fact that you, you know, in the beginning, I had to dig deep. And I repeated the same things over and over for a while until I, my list started to grow. But yeah, there were things in my life that I could be grateful for. And, and I believe everybody has those. Sometimes they're just hard to find. They're buried.

It's really, you know, the thing is, if you could start with the small things, you know, like you and I are both sitting in uncomfortable places. We both have enough food, we have clean water. I was listening to something about Ukraine this morning and, uh, the people of Mariupol, they're saying they're drinking brackish water and their people are starving. And we, and we, we take it for granted, you know. We take for granted. I, I was complaining yesterday, I went to Costco to buy some groceries and meat prices are through the roof right now, right? Um, so I could either focus on the fact that I had to spend $50 to buy 3 steaks, or the fact that I had the $50 and I can, I can afford the steaks.

Right, right. Yes. I mean, so true. And Ukraine, you, you bring up a good point. I mean, look at their lives right now and how many— 50-some days ago, they were living a life like we are, and boom, look what they're dealing with. And my heart just goes out to all of them. And what they're going through in their lives. But I think you can feel that too, when things happen to others. When you hear of somebody who loses a child, or you hear of all that death, it just— once you've gone through a loss like we have, it just breaks your heart. I mean, you feel— you can— you kind of like feel it in your soul. And it's, it's hard.

Yeah, well, I think that's why it's so important that you're doing the work that you're doing. You know, I think just being, being the example that you are, and, you know, and people being able to— because, again, we like to compare ourselves. It's just, it's just part of human nature, right? So we say, oh, my life is so miserable, my life is so terrible, you know, well, it's easy to say, I don't have anything to be grateful for. And I've seen people that, from the outside, looks like they're living fantastic lives, you know, like, you would, you know, my life's so bad, And what I've realized after, you know, talking to people like yourself, it's like everybody has challenges, everybody has issues. And for anybody that's listening, says, well, you don't understand my issues. I mean, read Cindy's book, and you'll see that, you know, we all go through things and, and we can, we can choose, you know, how we come out of them. So I appreciate what you, what you've done. We're running out of time, I could talk to you for the rest of the day. But so I like for you to tell people where they can reach you, make sure you, they know the name of your book if they want to pick it up. And stuff like that.

Okay. And I echo your thoughts on everyone has struggles. Everyone does. Everyone. So you can reach me through my website at CindyBaumann.com. And it's C-I-N-D-Y-B-A-U-M-A-N-N.com. My book is available on Amazon. It's Grief Warrior. And I think you'll find in my book, a lot of different tips and tools on how to get through your grief, how to help heal your grief. You'll feel like you're not alone when you read this book. I think you'll be able to— even though everyone's grief journey is unique, I think you'll be able to relate to different things. And I guess, you know, I want to leave you with— or first of all, I want to thank you, Brian D Smith, for having me on today. I enjoyed the conversation and sharing with your listeners. And I have a couple thoughts of, of inspiration for the listeners is, first of all, coming from a grief warrior, grief is a battlefield. Keep fighting it, even on those days you don't want to. Don't give up. There is beauty and joy on the other side. I am happy today and I want to live. Would I choose this path again? No. Would I rather have my, my son with me? Absolutely. But I am going to make the best of the time I have on this earth. And that day when we embrace, I want him to be proud of my journey. Keep praying. God hears you, even if he doesn't always answer in the way you you'd like him to. Gratitude. Again, be grateful for those little blessings in your life. Uh, and remember, this is the most important thing: love truly lives forever. Nothing can sever that, you know. And, and thank you, Brian D Smith, so much. Heartfelt thanks for you having me today.

Well, uh, Cindy, again, so much thank you for being here and for sharing and being so open, um, to to— I know this will help a lot of people. So with that, I want to say have a great day.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to Grief to Growth. Brian hopes that you find this episode helpful, and will come back for future episodes. Brian's bestselling book, Grief to Growth: Planted, Not Buried, is a great resource for anyone who is coping with grief or knows someone who is. If you enjoy the podcast and would like to support it, there are 3 things you can do to help. The first is to share the podcast with someone that you think it will help. The second is to go to iTunes, rate and review the episode. The third way you can support the podcast is by becoming a patron. Head over to www.patreon.com/grieftogrowth. That's P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/grieftogrowth. T-r-e-o-n.com/grief, the number 2, growth, and sign up to make a small monthly donation. Patrons get access to exclusive bonus content and knowledge that you are helping to spread the message of Grief 2 Growth. For more about Brian and Grief 2 Growth, visit www.grief2growth.com.

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