Turning Sudden Loss Into Sacred Storytelling | Diandra Ford-Wing | EP 435

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, I'm Brian D Smith, and welcome to Grief 2 Growth. And whether you're joining us for the very first time, or you're a longtime listener walking this journey with me, I'm really glad that you're here today. This podcast is all about helping you navigate life after loss. Together, we ask the big questions: Who are we? Why are we here? Where do we go after this life ends? And how can we move forward when life has knocked us to our knees? Today's guest is someone who's turned her own personal grief story in those stories of resilience, of hope, and of transformation. So I'm— I'm thrilled to welcome DeAndra Ford Wing, a gifted storyteller and sales director whose debut novel Redbird was born from a deeply personal journey through loss. After the sudden passing of her mother, DeAndra did something few have the courage to do. She paused her successful career to fully embrace the grieving process. Out of that sacred pause came not only healing, but a beautiful novel that inspires— invites readers to explore their own paths of love, loss, and of letting go. Growing up as an Army brat, DeAndre's life has taken her across the globe, from the US to Germany, offering her a rich and culturally layered lens through which she sees the world. Her work is infused with that unique perspective. Today we're going to talk about the symbolism behind the red bird, how grief has changed her from the inside out, and a very personal family mystery surrounding the death of her aunt in The Gambia. We'll also divide dive into what Deandra is working on next, what she hopes readers take away from Red Bird, and how her journey is a testament to healing power— to the healing power of storytelling. So if you've ever wondered how to make space for grief, how to transform pain into purpose, or how to listen when life itself is telling you to pause, you'll want to stay with us to the very end. And don't forget, after the show, join the conversation at grieftogrowth.com/community, where you can connect with me and other listeners and we can continue to grow together. So with that, I want to welcome Diondra Ford Wing.

Thank you, Brian. I'm so glad to be here.

Yeah, I'm really glad to have you here today and to hear about your, your personal journey through these challenges that you've had. So just jump in and tell us, start from wherever you like. Yeah.

So I wrote Red Bird on the heels of my mom passing. I had been working at a job in technology. I've been in sales, um, in technology for 24 years, and I had just started this job. I was 6 months in, and even before my mom had passed, I knew that it wasn't probably gonna work out. It wasn't a good fit, um, just— it just wasn't. But my mom's passing actually gave me the freedom to quit that job and just step out on faith and figure out what my next move was going to be. So during that time when I really had nothing to do but look for a job, I took that time to actually write Red Bird. And I started off as just like entering journals, you know, just like writing journal entries and Then I thought, after I got into the third or fourth journal entry, I was like, well, this, this is turning into something. I don't know what this is, but I think what I want to do is make this something instead of just being something that, um, was only fit for my consumption. I wanted someone else to be able to take something from Red Bird and just be able to glean some You know, I don't know if I dropped any pearls of wisdom, mind you, but I, I just wanted to share my path, my story, and just all the things that it took for me to kind of get through the grief process. I'm still going through it, Brian. I'm not 100% out of the woods, but I'm glad to say that I, I'm at least a fourth of the way there.

Yeah. So tell us about your mother.

Yeah. Oh my God, Sandra. OK, so Sandra Ford was an amazing woman. She was an amazing mom, an amazing educator. She came from a family of educators. She taught English for over 30 years. And she just was a light.

She—

her spirit. Oh my God. I don't even know how to describe her. But all I can say is that she was truly special. She was a special lady. And I just remember thinking, when she passed, I was like, well, well, dang, what does that mean for me? Well, who am I going to talk to 5 times a day now? Like, who? Who am I going to bother, like, as much as I bothered her? Like, she was just always there. She was just my constant. And to have that stripped from me just felt wrong. It felt like it just wasn't right. And I just— I marvel at the things that she was able to accomplish. She had 4 kids. And she treated us all just like we were like the bee's knees, the cat's pajamas, like we were just her end-all be-all. And I just really, really— I appreciated that about her. She never made me feel like, oh, I'm too busy for you. Oh, I've got this and this and this. She was always, always a mom first. Always. I don't care what it was.

Sounds wonderful. So, uh, if you don't mind, how long ago did she pass and, and what were the circumstances around that?

Yeah, so she passed, uh, March— oh my God, no, February 21st of 2024. Okay, so she just over a year ago as we're recording, just over a year ago.

Mhm.

And, um, The thing was is that my mom had never been sick a day in her life, never. And she had been complaining about, like, not feeling well. And so she said that, I'm going to take myself to my primary care physician. And she did. The day before her death, actually, she had gone to the doctor. They told her she was dehydrated. It wasn't COVID. It wasn't anything. She just was dehydrated. So they gave her some IV fluids and sent her, you know, home with a script for something or other. I have no idea what it was, but she had, you know, texted all of us and said, um, I'm going to Walgreens to pick up my prescription, and then I'm going to go home, try to get some sleep because I slept like crap the night before. So we were just like, okay, Mom, it sounds good. Just, you know, take it easy, get some rest, and so we'll check on you the following day. Following day comes, And I'm at work. I'm actually in the office and I'm holed up in a conference room. We were having some kind of, like, end of quarter thing. And I finally go back to my office and I close the door. And I had missed so many phone calls from my twin sister and my older sister. And so I call my twin and I'm like, hey, what's going on? She's like, have you heard from Mom? I said, well, She texted us this morning saying that she felt okay, and that was like at 8:30, but I haven't heard from her since. But then again, I've been in a meeting for the past couple of hours, so by then it's like 2 o'clock. So I'm like, I don't even know, let me try to call her. So I called her, just went to voicemail. And so I called my sister back and I'm like, uh, she's not answering. So she's like, call Lincia, our older sister, because she lives so close to her, have her do a wellness check. I'm like, absolutely. So I call Lincia And Lindsay is like, okay, yeah, I'm on it. So she goes, we're on the phone, we're still on the phone while she's going to my mom's house because she lives that close to her. And she's like, oh darn it, the, the screen, the, the glass door screen is locked. And I'm like, do you have the key? And she's like, I think I do. Let me like dig into my purse and see. She's like, I see her car is here because she had like windows in her garage. And so she's like, her car's here. And the house just looks dark. I don't know what's going on. And so she was, she was starting to panic. And so I said, "Lynzia, just hang on a second. I'm calling 911." So I called 911 here in Austin and they dispatched me to the 911 in my mom's town. And I said, "I need someone to come to my mom's house. Here's her address. I don't know what's going on. My sister's there, but we think that something's wrong with my mom because we can't get into her house and we just don't know." So finally, Lynzia gets in by the grace grace of God. I don't know how she gets in, but she just let out a scream that I've never heard anybody scream. It was so guttural. And, um, so then I'm on the phone with the 911 people, and they were just like, okay, we've got a crew coming out there right now. They, they're like 1 minute out. And my twin had arrived. She lived in the next town over, about 30 minutes away, and she arrived right when the police did, and my sister was administering— my older sister was administering CPR. They took over for her, and they just said, she's, she's gone. She had been gone for a couple of hours. We don't know how long. But a detective came, and of course, the coroner and all that stuff. And mind you, I was still at work at this point, and I had kicked off my heels, and I was just like, I was done for. My boss ended up taking me back to my house downtown, and my husband met me out front, and he was just like, what is— what— he was— he didn't even know what to say. He had no words. He was like, are you sure? And I'm like, they said that she's, she's gone. And so he's like, we gotta get down there. So we My boss leaves, we get on the first thing smoking, we get in the car and we like head on over to the next town. And we— it's usually about an hour to get there, but it was like a 45, 30-minute drive. I kid you not, we were going so fast on the toll road and I'm like, oh my God. We get there and it was a scene. I mean, there was the forensics guy, the detective guy, the coroner, like everybody was there and it was just So crazy. And my brother had pulled up at the same time that I did. He was just leaning over his car and he was just like convulsing. He was crying and inconsolable. I get out of the car. My husband had stopped it and I get out and I run to him and I'm like, is she really gone? And he was like, that's what they said. We just all were in a state of we cannot believe it.

I understand.

We cannot believe it. And so months later we found out that she just basically just died. She just died, much like her mom had, much like my aunt had. They just died.

So there was no medical explanation?

No, none really. They just said that it was hypertension and just your standard run-of-the-mill. If they don't have a way to assign anything to it, they just slap on hypertension or something to it. Yeah, but it really, to me, it just sounds like she was just ready to go. That's what it just sounded like to me. I felt that in my spirit. I really did.

Well, Deandra, first of all, I'm so sorry for your loss and sorry to make— to have you go through that again. But I think it's— I've been— my daughter passed away similarly. It was— she, she's—

oh my God.

Yeah, she was, she was 15 and, and, you know, she just didn't wake up one morning. And then just a couple weeks ago, I had a friend, he was 59, and He lives like we could see him from our house, uh, their house from our house, and he, he passed away suddenly. So that's, that's sudden loss. I understand when you say, no, they can't— this can't be, this can't be real. Uh, and so what was it like for you as you woke up days, months later? I, I— what was that? Did you have the feeling like I did? You wake up in the morning, you're like, did this really happen?

Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me, and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

I did. And that actually happened for me the next morning. I was like, because it was like muscle memory. I reached for the phone to call my mom, right? I'm sorry, my dogs are barking.

Oh, that's okay. Zoom blocks it out, so don't worry about it.

Okay, okay. But I, um, I woke up the next morning, I reached over to, to grab the phone to call my mom, and I was just like, oh crap, she's not here.

Yeah.

And so my husband was like, my husband was like, what do you need? Okay, so I realized the moment it hit me was the next day when I woke up and tried to call her. I picked up the phone to call her, and then I was like, "Wait a minute, she's not here." And so then my husband was like, "What do you need?" And I said, "Ben, I need to scream." And he said, Okay, do it. He put in some earplugs and he let me go to town. It was the most satisfying scream I've ever let out in my entire life. And I just broke. I broke in that moment and I haven't broken since then. And I haven't allowed myself to cry since then. I don't know why I can't do it. I can't. I think I'm in some type of weird space where I just want to not think about it. I haven't accepted her death. And I know that I haven't. And there's— that's one of the 5 stages of grief, right? Acceptance. And I haven't accepted it. I know I haven't.

Well, it's, it's good that you know that you haven't.

I know.

And that's okay. You know, um, we all— there, I had to pay the pushback, but there aren't 5 stages of grief. That's a really—

how many?

They're infinite. There, there's, there's all kinds of stages of grief, and they don't go in any particular order, and we circle around, and, um, and there's no, there's no time frame for it either. But there is the acceptance of the death. That is, that is something that's, that's kind of important, you know, thing that we have to do. Um, and it's, it's difficult, and it comes to everybody in a different way. And you're, you're just over a year now, and I know a lot of people will say— and it's fun, it's interesting you say that, because a lot of people say they've accepted it, but then when they look back on it, they'll say, that first year I was in a fog, the first year. And, and then the second year is when it really starts to hit people, like, this is really real.

Yeah.

Um, because there's, there's that overwhelm that we just can't face it all at once, especially with the relationship, sounds like you have with your mother. Where it's so close and there's such a part of your life. And so, yeah, that, that moving through that and, and the crying, um, and all that stuff, it comes in its own time, and it's different for everybody.

Yeah. And I, I know that to my core. I know that. But it's still a little— it's a hard pill to swallow, if I'm being honest. I, I just there's a part of me that just feels like this is just a dream. This is like a terrible nightmare with a lot of detail. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I kind of feel like a lot of the times when I take a moment to just pause and think about my mom and think about the fact that she's not here, I'm thinking of it in terms— or thinking of her in terms of, oh, I'll see her again. And that, that, that's healthy, yes, but not to the point where I'm thinking I'm going to see her tomorrow. No, no, no, no, not like that. But I, I just want the chance to just, just to say, hey, Mom, one last time, just to pick up the phone and just to hear her voice and to hear her laugh and to hear her, you know, make fun of me or something crazy. Like, she was just so quick-witted and just She— I just miss her. And tomorrow's Mother's Day. And this is my second Mother's Day without her. And the first one, oh my God, I don't even know what the hell we did. Me and my siblings, I don't know what we did. But we were all together. I think it was just a blur. But my sister, my twin sister, she ended up having something at her house. And we all got together, had mom's favorite things, and just celebrated her.

That's awesome.

And we're doing the same thing today because we can't do it tomorrow. So I'm— after we— you and I talk, I'll be going to see my sisters and brother, and, and we're just going to honor my mom like we usually do.

Well, I thank you for sharing that and for being so, so open and vulnerable. And as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking about my neighbor who just passed away. Yeah, 2 weeks ago. No, it's been a month. It's been a month.

Oh gosh, April 7th.

And I was speaking with his family, of course, and, you know, just a great guy, you know. And, and this is speaking with his daughter who's going through exactly what you're going through now, but only, you know, she's only a month in.

Yes.

And so I understand. And, and I've, I've worked with a lot of people that are going through grief, and I've, I've been recently— it's really weird— I've been talking to a lot of widows people have lost their, their spouses.

Oh God.

And, you know, there's that— there's two aspects, you know. There's, there's the yes, they're physically gone, and that is hard. You can't pick up the phone and talk to them. You can't hear them teasing you. You, you're not going to hear their, their voice. I believe they're still with us though, um, in a very real way. So there's, um, the, the denial that we go through about their physical passing. Yes, something that eventually we have to accept. Like you said, I'm going to see it again. I was talking with a client yesterday, and I was talking about my daughter. And I said, it's kind of like when my other daughter went off to college, you know, I mourned when she left to go to college, because she wasn't gonna be living in the house anymore. And this, my client's like, well, but, but you knew you're going to see her again. I said, yeah, I knew I was gonna see her at spring break, or whenever it wouldn't be for a while. But I knew, and I know I'm going to see Shayna again, but it won't be— I said most likely it won't be tomorrow. Um, it could be, I don't know, but most likely it won't be. It won't be tomorrow. It might be a while. And that's the, that's the difficult thing when we're dealing with that grief and you have the belief you're going to see them again, but you don't know when it is.

That's it. That's it. And I, earlier this week, I was so mad at my mom I was so mad at her. I actually was in my bed. And I was talking out loud to her pointedly. I said, Mom, you know what? This isn't working for me. I have not seen you. You have not graced any of my dreams. What's going on? Are you having a good time up there? Like, what? What's up?

Yeah.

And I was like, but you need to show yourself because I'm really starting to lose faith that once we die, is it really the end, or do we live somewhere in the ether? Like, I, I don't know. I started to lose faith a little bit that day. And so the next morning, I get up at, you know, my normal time, 6, and start walking the dogs around 7:30. And I make a right out of my front gate, um, taking my dogs out, and I happen to look to the right And there was a brilliant, brilliant red bird. Brilliant cardinal. And I was like, Mom, I was like, okay, so you heard me last night.

That's awesome.

And the bird started singing, and then it just flitted away, just flew away. Yeah, just flew away. And I just, I just—

that's, that's awesome. You know, it reminds me of the Rolling Stones line, you can't always get what you want, but you get— sometimes you get what you need. Yes. And when it when it comes to spirit communication, you know, because of what I do, people ask me like, why am I not getting signs? Why am I not getting more signs? And we want signs a certain way, and we, we do. Um, but you know, we get just enough. I think, I think, I think we get just enough just to, just to keep us going, because there is something about we're supposed to go on this journey, whatever, whatever this grief journey is. It, you know, you've seen how it can transform you, and you you wrote a novel, right, because of it. And you, you, you took that time out, and you're, you're growing and you're changing as a person. But we don't want that. We, we want— we want— I would— you would trade it all, right, to have a phone call from your mother?

I know I would. And just the, the, the idea behind death, it's just so final. But if we look at it from a different lens, if we look at it through the lens of, okay, well, this is the end of the physical You know, yes, your body is given out, your body is no more, but your spirit and everything that makes you, you, your soul lives on. So that's the one thing that I've taken from this. And me seeing that red bird in that moment, at that time, when I talked to my mom, when I was mad at her, seeing that moment was— that red bird in that moment was right on time. Because it further let me know that there is something to the afterlife. There is something to the spirit world. It's not just we're bodies walking around this earth with no spirit, no soul. Yeah, we're tethered to something. We're tethered to the world at large, the spirit world at large. And that's one thing that I really, really truly embraced during this entire process.

That's awesome. And so I also want to emphasize something you said about like, you talked about screaming the day after your mother passed, getting, getting those emotions out. I think that's really important. Yeah, whatever, however people— I tell people, as long as you're not doing anything harmful to yourself or others, you know, if you have anger, you know, find some way to release that anger. Screaming can help people going to one of those rage rooms and smashing things or, you know, punching a pillow or something.

I didn't think about that rage room thing. That's a good idea.

Yeah. But also being honest enough to say, I'm angry with my mother because the anger is a natural emotion too. And we can be angry at a lot of things. We might get angry at God. That's okay. God can take it. We might get angry at our loved ones. Like, why did you leave me? You know, that's, that's a very natural response. And I appreciate you sharing that and speaking it out loud. Because your mother's in a higher perspective now. You're not going to hurt her feelings, right?

She's—

yeah, look at you like, okay, I know you're upset, but it's going to be okay. When Spirit— that's, that's like, it's so annoying. All they ever say is like, it's going to be okay, it's going to be okay, it's going to be okay. I know, um, because from that perspective, it is, there's no— for— it is okay.

I can only hope, I can only hope that when I pass on that my legacy will live on as profoundly as my mom's has, because she's— I don't have any children. So it's going to be— it's going to look a little different for me.

Sure.

Now I am married. And like I said, we have no kids. But I often wonder what that would look like for my spouse, like you were mentioning the widowed people and all that stuff. I, I'm scared of that, like that kind of grief.

I'm very afraid of, you know, um, we're getting a little bit off track of your story, so hopefully we'll get back to you.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

I was thinking this as I was on my walk this morning, um, you know, losing a child is— I— it's horrible. I can't even describe.

She was so young.

Yeah, she was 15. So, but I've been working with these people who have lost a spouse, and I'm like, that's your— that's the other part of you, you know? And I was listening to the song The Biggest Part of Me actually this morning, and it was inspiring me. I've been to write a blog article about it because you— hopefully you have that. We get to have that kind of relationship where that person is just like, they complete us. And if you lean into that, that is a very scary thing because when we take that vow till death do us part when we're young and we're healthy, we're like Oh yeah, till death do us part. And now I'm at the point where it's like, no, now I know that means one of us is going to go first.

I know.

And that is a scary thought.

Yeah, it is, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. But let's, let's talk about— and I'm going to steer the ship a little bit here because it really brought me to my aunt. So my Aunt Sean, we affectionately called her Sean, but her name was Audrey. She was like me, no children, but she had never been married. So when my grandfather, her dad, died, she was his primary caretaker. He had Parkinson's, right? So after he had died, I want to say— oh my God, was it 2020? Oh, it was not during the height of COVID but it was around COVID time. So it was around 2021, maybe, he passed away. She ended up selling all of her things, selling everything, her car, her possessions, whatnot, whatever she couldn't use. She became an expat. She moved from the States to The Gambia. Didn't know a soul, but she said that the ancestors were calling her to West Africa, to The Gambia. And I'm like, what, girl? And I was like, we don't know anybody in The Gambia. Are you sure that that's where you want to go? Like, It was just— it didn't make any sense. And but she always was a free spirit, you know, and I recognized myself in that. So I was all for it. I'm like, you do what you want to do, I— whatever you want, I'm here for you. So she was gone, um, within the space of like 6 months. She had sold everything, and then next thing you know, she's on a plane, one-way ticket Everything.

Wow.

So she gets to The Gambia, immediately touches down, and she starts making all these plans and doing all these things, making all these moves. She bought land, she bought a taxi, she was gonna build a shop for women with essential oils and things like that for hair care and things, just all these wonderful things. And we were coming up with names for her, her, her little shop was going to be called Kenta's Cottage, and I was drawing up a logo for it. And so we could like, you know, just and have all these cool things in there. And so we were doing all this stuff. And mind you, this is, you know, over Zoom and over email and all this stuff. But we were having a good time figuring all that out. But meanwhile, she met this guy over there. Now, I am prone to think that she knew him before she went to The Gambia, because that's just the way that my mind works. But I don't know, we'll never know. It's an unanswered question. We will never know. But Her and this guy were slated to be married 2 weeks prior to her death. And all I know, all I— anyone knows is that we get a phone call at 5 o'clock in the morning from this fiancé of hers, calls my mom. And he's like, "Sandra, Audrey's gone. And she said, you know, gone where? To the store? It's 5 o'clock in the morning here. What are you doing, like, calling me at 5 o'clock in the morning? What's going on? And she was— he was like, no, she's, she's, she's not with us anymore. She's, she's dead. And my mom just lost all of her marbles and called my older sister. She came over, then she called me, and then it was just a hot mess. But the entirety of the story was just that. She had— they had been to dinner that night. They had met some friends at this local, you know, dive bar or something. And she went to sleep, and he had gotten up in the middle of the night, and he had to go to use the bathroom. And he said that when he came back to the bedroom, she was looking kind of funny. So he was trying to rouse her, and he splashed some water on her face because she wasn't responsive. And She basically passed away in her sleep. This— I struggle with this because that's how her— that's how my grandmother died. That's how her mom died. That's how my mom died in her sleep a year after my Aunt Audrey passed. And they were all relatively young. My mom was 70, so she made it farther in life than either of those women did. My grandmother, when she passed, was 48. Okay. And my Aunt Sean, or Audrey, was 53. My mom had made it to 70. But they all died very similarly, whether it be stroke-related, hypertension, I don't know. But I, I really, I was not surprised. But at the same time, I felt that there was some, some, some things missing. Like you could drive a van through the holes in the story. Like they kept changing. And I just, I got the US Embassy involved. My mom couldn't do it. And so I took on the task of, you know, just connecting us with the US Embassy over in The Gambia. And finally, after dialing, I'm not even kidding you, 100+ numbers, I finally got someone. His name was Connor. I will never forget him. But he was just human, just a human, and he wanted to help, and he was lovely. And, um, I just, uh, we had to figure out a number of things. Like, I, I needed to identify her body. I needed a forensics report. I needed an autopsy. I needed this, I needed that, and all these things. So I had to open up a trust, in her name that the US, the embassy could therefore do all these things because it costs money to do all these things.

Sure.

So I put all this money into this trust and had Connor working for me in The Gambia to make all these things happen. And so at the end of it, I identified her body via a WhatsApp call, a video. And the guy, the coroner, the medical examiner, he just panned up and down her body with his phone, started with her head all the way down to her feet and then back up again to her face. And I'm like, that's, that's my aunt. That's her.

Wow.

And it— I don't know how I got through all that, Brian. I I don't know. I, I was strong enough to get through it, and my mom was very, very thankful that I was there to be able to do all these things, you know, to help the family and to help my Aunt Shawn. And we were having Zoom calls with the extended family, like the rest of the sisters and, you know, cousins, and I was telling them what, what we're gonna you know, do and how we're going to do it. But all told, it came to like $50,000 to get her body back to the United States. They call it repatriation. And at the end, we decided that that was just ridiculous when she really wanted to be in The Gambia and not set foot on US soil again. So my mom said, okay, let's have her buried there. So I got her a nice coffin and got her a burial spot in a Christian church in The Gambia under a big tree because she loved trees and she loved the beach. And Connor went to her funeral and he took pictures. And he just said, she's resting peacefully now. And I said, thank you, Connor. He didn't have to do all that. But he did. He wanted me to know that she was laid to rest and that everything went okay.

Yeah, well, I'm so sorry you went through that. That's—

it was tough, I'm telling you. Um, we got some of her things back, um, from the embassy. Um, I don't think that— no, anyone's opened the box yet. I, I— it's still in my mom's garage. I don't even know what to do with it. So she never opened it, I never opened it. I I don't know.

Yeah, so yeah, you know, life— as life comes at you fast, and we don't— we don't know. You know, as I said, my daughter was, was 15. She was perfectly healthy as far as we knew. She had a, she had a minor heart issue she had seen a cardiologist about. Yeah, he had said come back and see me every 2 years just to make sure this issue hasn't gotten any worse. She was on no medications, she was on no restrictions, she was an athlete. And, you know, the thing that I've— that it's hard for us to accept as human beings is we don't have any control.

We don't.

We have, we have zero control. We, we have this illusion of control. Um, and, and what I've learned is we have to live every moment, right? You were talking about, like, as with our spouses, you know, we, we sit there and we go through and we plan for— we do our retirement planning and we write our wills and all that stuff. And when we're 70, we're going to do this, and You know, it's just someone— then one day one of us might not be here. So we have to just live, you know, in the moment.

I know. And I don't take that lightly, Brian, because when you say live in the moment, I truly, truly feel that. I really, to my, to my core, because life is not promised and tomorrow is not promised. And there's all these different elements that are working against not you necessarily, but we're up against a clock that we don't know. It's an invisible clock. And when our time is up, it's up. So we have to enjoy, enjoy these days that we have on this earth. They're numbered.

Yeah. Well, you know, and you took the time to process your grief, to honor your grief. You were— and I know not everybody can leave their job and do that, but I've spoken with several people who have. They'll just put a stake in the ground and they'll like Okay, I'm doing something that's not bringing me joy. So yeah, I'm going to stop doing that because I don't know how long I have. And I— and you can always pick up and do something, do something else later. But it's really important to honor, to honor our grief and to take that time. And, you know, you started your journaling, which turned into your novel. So let's talk about Redbird. Okay. Yeah.

Redbird. So we know about the symbol. About The Red Bird, obviously. Even before when I decided that it was going to become a memoir or short little novella, I knew that it was going to take on, like, a shape, and that shape was going to be that of an easily digestible read. It's only like 150 pages, if that. And the reason why I did that by design is because I wanted it to be something that someone could sit down and feasibly read within, like, the span of a day or two. I think that's great. And still be able to walk away with something. I didn't want it to be like War and Peace, where you're spending days and weekends and nights and freaking months trying to read this book. But I did want there to be a message in it. Not a lesson, but a message. And there's a difference, I think. I'm not one— I'm no expert on any of this stuff. I'm just, I'm just going by my lived experience. That's all I'm going by. But I think that it's important when you are putting your work out there, when you are putting yourself out there, that there is an appetite for what you have to say. And whether or not people receive your message, that's not the point. It's only if you feel like you've accomplished something that makes it all worth it. And I feel like I really accomplished something when I finally, you know, finished period, dot at the end of that last sentence of Red Bird. And I was just like, Mom would be so tickled. She'd be like, "Girl, you done wrote a book." And I'm like— and I just— that to me just made me very, very proud. And I know that It's silly to think that we're looking for people to be proud of us when they're no longer here. I get that. But she was so important to me that the only person that really matters to me that reads this book or that gets something out of this book is her. And because she can't— because she can't, I have to just hope that at least one person is touched by the words that spewed forth from my mouth.

Yeah. Yeah.

I just— she just— oh my God, my mom was just so special. She was so special.

Well, I think your mother is still special. And—

oh, yeah.

And she's— you're a special person too, who came through her. And obviously she's greatly influenced you. You know, with my, my daughter, you know, I do what I do because of her. I wouldn't be doing what I do if it weren't for her. And that's, you know, that's why your picture is behind me.

I, I was going to ask you that, but I didn't want to.

Yeah, I had, I had a Zoom background for a long time. It was just one of those fake backgrounds, and there was a just a generic photo in it. And someone said, is that your daughter? I'm like, well, no. But then I heard Shana saying to me, well, you should put me in there. So I got a picture of Shana and I put it in my fake background. And then when I redid my office, I was like Shana's like, I have to, you know, I have to be there. So that's her spot. But yet, she still, she still influences me. I mean, she's the only reason I do what I do. And, and, you know, when after she passed, you know, just being very honest with you, frank with you. I didn't want to be here. You know, when you're— you lose a child, you want to be where your child is. So I thought, I don't want to be here. That was right. I had to live for my other daughter. I've got another daughter and my wife and other people care about me.

Of course they do.

And then, um, finally struck me as like, Shayna's still watching me. And Shayna was a judgy person, so Shayna is judging me, and she's like, you better, you better, you know, do what you're supposed to do.

Yes.

Um, I believe that we have a certain amount of time we're supposed to be here, you know, and, and whether it's 70 like your mother, or it's 15, or Some people don't make it out of the womb. Um, I've talked to people that have, you know, lost children through miscarriage. Some people don't, don't make it that far. And it's not a, it's not a tragedy. That's, I think that was the, that's the term of their life, you know. We all have a term, we just don't know what the term is.

And that's the part that's just so annoying, you know what I mean? Like, you want to know what's my expiration date.

It's funny you say that because I know a person who says that she can look at you and tell you like the day of your, your passing. And I, I, and I, I, and I was like, because I've always said I want to know, right? Because you have to do retirement plan. I was like, I thought— and when she said that to me, I was like, no, I don't want to know. Don't tell me.

Don't tell me.

I realized I don't really want to know.

Oh my God. Yeah, because then you're fighting the clock.

Well, yeah, be careful what you wish for, right? Oh my God. Oh, I could ask her because she's I mean, she doesn't publicize that she can do that. But I was like, I know her well, if I could ask her, and I assume she probably would tell me, but I realized there's something about the mystery that I think it's built in. It's— we're supposed to have that mystery. It's kind of like if you're watching a movie and someone tells you the end of the movie, then would you just turn it off? Right? It's like, why should I even watch it?

Yeah, that is so true.

Yeah.

I never thought of it in those terms. But that, that actually, that makes So much frickin' sense. It really does. That's—

this is, you know, this is, this is my musings after 10 years of my daughter. It'll be 10 years in June since she's been gone. So I've realized that, yeah, she's still with me. I still, I still, you know, here to, to continue her legacy. You've written the book, you know, Red Bird, in honor of your mother, who I know is proud of you. And you're doing, you're doing this and you're inspiring people. And when we talk about legacy, we have sometimes very particular ideas of legacy. It's like making a lot of money, leaving money, doing foundations, stuff like that. But your legacy is the people that you touch. The legacy is the people that you inspire. And we don't know, like you just putting this out there, you're going to, you're going to touch somebody that you'll never know.

I know. And I thought about that. And I was also kind of afraid too, because like, what if no one receives the memoir the way that I want them to. But it's out of my hands. Reading is subjective. Like, art is always subjective. You have to— people just take it, consume it, get what they want to get out of it, and then move on. So I can't assign a personal kind of feeling towards what someone else takes away from my book. But I think it's worth mentioning that I was very afraid to actually put it out there. I really was.

Yeah. No, I think, I think it's, that's, and I think, I know it's very common. I know a lot of people written books, and I've written a couple myself.

Yeah.

And you, you put it out there and they're like, well, what if nobody buys it? So what if nobody buys it?

Yeah, so what? Who cares? Yeah, that wasn't the goal. The goal was just to write the thing, right?

The, the goal is exactly, you said, it's to express that, is to let that expression out. That is, that is a very It's a great form of healing, by the way, you know, journaling has been shown to have great benefits and journaling publicly, you know, maybe even more so. And then to sit here as you're having— every time you have one of these conversations, you're healing a little bit, hopefully.

I hope so, Brian.

Yeah, I think, I think you are. I think you are. And you're, and you're— again, there's no timeframe on like, on our grief. And when we go through the different stages, yeah, it's a growth process. You know, it is.

Yeah, it's one that I never thought I would ever— I know that sounds so stupid. I was going to say that it's one that I never thought I would ever have to go through. I knew that my parents were going to go on in this world. I knew that they were going to leave this earth at one point or another, but I just did not expect— and that is the thing, that is the thing that kills me, because I had been mourning my mother's passing 2 years prior to her death. Do you want to know why I say that?

Why? Yeah.

Okay. I don't know what it was in me that started prepping for her death. And I'm not kidding. So have you heard of this thing called Storyworth?

I have not, no.

Okay. So essentially what it is, it's a company. Have a subject. In this case, it was my mom. And that subject gets asked questions every single week. Those questions then turn into a book about them. And you can gift it to your family members, like your brother, your sisters, and whomever you want to learn more about your mom or whoever the subject is. So I said she had just retired. So we started this about a year before she died. And she had just retired. And she's like, I don't want to do anything but watch Judge Judy. I said, Mom, you're going to do something. And we're going to do this project. And you're going to freaking like it. And we're going to have fun. And we're going to make a book about you. And she was like, OK, send me the thing. So I sent her her first question. And she was just like, oh my God, I don't want to do this. And she fought me every step of the way. And then by the fifth question, She started to get into it. She was like, okay, I— it's like a journal entry about her life. And I'm like, Mom, you wrote journals all the time. This is just a computer and you just input it in there and just move on with your day. It takes like 10 minutes, if not 5. And so she was like, okay, I'll do it. So by the end of it, we had 3 questions left. And then she died. Okay. So I ended up editing what she had written. And even though we were 3 questions away, I had it printed up. And I gifted it to my sisters and brother.

Wow.

And my niece.

Right.

And my sister, my older sister goes, how did you know? Like, this is so timely. Like, granted, you were 3 questions away from finishing.

But still.

The fact that you got the ball rolling with this. I said, "Lynsia." I was like, something in me just knew that her time was limited on this earth, especially after Sean died. Because that's when we picked up this project. Because I wanted her to have something to do to take her mind off of her sister dying. And yeah, she was just like, dumbfounded that we had done this, this this book. And I just— I really— I think it was just foresight. I don't know what it was. But I really, really— I knew that I was going to eulogize her. That's number one. I've always known that. And I told her I was going to do it. And she said, OK, who else wants to do that? Nobody cares about that, DeAndra. And I'm like, whatever. So I told her I was going to do it. So I held on to my word. We played her favorite song. Like, we just— everything just fell together, just fell into place so beautifully. She did not want to be buried. She wanted to be cremated. She had outlined everything. She had this— the detective said that he had never seen someone so organized. She had kept everything in this manila envelope in, like, her chest of drawers in the bottom one. And he found it and he was like, I think this is for you guys.

Wow.

You know, and so he gave it to my sister who ended up being the executor of her estate. And, um, yeah, it— my mom just was— she was just on it, man. Yeah, she just— we had no question. We didn't have to go through probate, we didn't have to go through any of that crap. Yeah, just because she lined out exactly what she wanted in her will and testament.

You know, and some people would say, oh well, of course you knew that she was going to pass at some point, you know, because we all, we all do.

We all do. We all do.

But there, there's this really interesting relationship we have with our mortality. We all know we're gonna, we're going to die at some point. We do. But we all deny it, you know.

I know we do.

It's, it's both things at the same time. It's like, my parents are 87 and 88, and oh, you're so blessed, and they're, they're healthy, so But I, you know, that's great. I know one day, you know, if I'm here, if I— because I could go first too. But one day I'm going to get that phone call. And again, we talked about earlier, we stand there and we say our vows, our wedding vows, till death do us part. But we never think it's actually going to happen.

I know.

But it is. That's why we have to live every day embracing that day, you know, and embracing the uncertainty of life. I believe that you and your mother, just from the hour I've been talking to you, that connection's like that. And you have a soul contract. And I think at some level you remember this is the time's coming up. At some level, I think she remembered this time is coming up. It's not at a conscious level. It's not at a human level. My daughter Shayna, when she was like 10, said, I don't want to grow up. And we're like, Shayna, you have to grow up. That's part of the deal. You know, when you come into the body, You— and I used to say to her, Shayna, I don't think you ever fully incarnated. She was lazy. She didn't like— I mean, she was a great athlete and stuff, but she would— I carried her upstairs like a lot of times. She was 15, she was 5'10", but I would carry her upstairs because she's like, I don't feel like walking. So that was just— and she said, and a few weeks before she passed, she was playing. She was 15, they were outside playing. It was Mother's Day, and She said, um, when I die, I want to be cremated and buried underneath the tree. And no, we had no idea because she was— we weren't there. It was, it was the kids.

No.

And after she passed, which was like 6 weeks later, we were talking to our daughter Kayla. We said, what should we do with Shayna's body? Because, you know, we have no idea. We didn't talk about it. She goes, Shayna said she wanted to be cremated. We're like, when did she say that? And she goes, oh, Mother's Day. We're like, why? And Ken goes, I don't know, we weren't— we said, were you talking about—

you weren't even thinking about anything, right?

No, she— they were outside playing, they were playing kickball or something.

Stop it.

So yeah, I think, I think our soul knows at a certain level. Um, so I think you're— I think you and your mother both were probably, you know, you're— I think you're a sensitive person. You were picking up on like, stop it, it's time.

Stop it, Brian. No one's ever said that to me. That makes so much sense. Yeah, that makes so much sense. Oh wow.

Yeah, you're, um, again, you guys, you have a special bond, and I think it was, it was like, okay, it's time to pass the torch. It's like, I've done, I've done my work here. And many times people that when they pass, they'll say from the other side, I can do more from here than I could do from there. So it's time for me to— because your mother's work has not ended. Her legacy has not ended. She lives on through her children and through whatever else. So that, that's, that's not over.

I know. So a month to the day after she died, a month to the day. She died February 21st. March 21st, Eden was born. Eden Kay, that's my mom's middle name. Her middle name is Kay. My niece, who was— she's 25 now, so she had just finished college at 22, and her and her boyfriend had made a baby, and we did not know that. So at my mom's funeral, she was 8 months pregnant, wasn't showing, but she was a— she was an athlete. She's a dancer, fitness, like she was really fit. And so we didn't know. And I was in Puerto Rico because like I said, I quit my job and I was like traveling, just writing this book. And me and my husband were in Puerto Rico and So I get a phone call while we're at the Bacardi factory, of all places.

Oh, wow. Mm-hmm.

OK. And my twin, Dionne, is like, hey, guess where I am? And I said, oh my God, where? And mind you, by then, I'm like 2 drinks in. So I'm like, girl, where you at? And so she was like, I'm at the hospital with your niece. Who is giving birth to your great niece. I'm like, what are you talking about? It was so crazy. But she had Eden a month to the day that my mom passed away.

Yeah.

And I said, that ain't nothing but mom. That ain't nothing but mom. Because I know that we can choose when we come back, how soon we come back, when we—

like, how.

What form, all that stuff. I guess she said, 'Nah, I kind of want to be in a body again, and I'll come back as a baby and see what it do.' I don't know, I just don't know. But, um, yeah, but it's so funny because Eden has so many of her mannerisms. Like, she would wring her hands. My mom always would fiddle with her hands, and then she had the softest hands. Oh my God, they were so soft. And Eden does that, and I'm like, 'Oh my gosh, She's just like Mom. She's just like Mom.

Wow.

It's incredible.

There you go. The legacy goes on. We're coming to the end of our time. I really enjoyed, uh, speaking with you this morning. So remind people of the name of your book and where they can get it.

The book is Red Bird, and you can purchase it on Amazon, Barnes Noble, bookpeople.com, or my website, which is booksbydeandra.com. And I'm also on Instagram if you want to follow me on social. It's just, um, my full name, Deandra Ford Wing, all one word, at Instagram. Um, and yeah, that's how you can find me.

All right, awesome. Well, enjoy the rest of the day. Enjoy the time with your, with your siblings, uh, honoring your mother.

Thank you so much.

All right, see you later.

All right, have a good one.

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