Understanding Metaphysics In Modern Life- With David Gaggin EP 362

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. And you introduced something called metaphysics. So tell me what metaphysics is.

Meta means beyond. And so, so basically, it's beyond physics. So, so what you're getting is, you know, the science looks at physics, the physical world, and metaphysics, it considers the physical world, it considers religion, but it considers everything else to philosophy, ESP, all of the other things. So it's, it takes everything that, that you could possibly think of. And, and it, it puts it into the package that says, Okay, we have to consider that. We can't, we can't have certain elements like science says, well, ESP doesn't exist. Well, ESP does exist. And so that needs to be considered when we're trying to figure out, you know, what's going on around us.

Close your eyes and imagine. What if the things in life that cause us the greatest pain, the things that bring us grief, are challenges? Challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Welcome to another episode of Grief to Growth, where we delve into the essence of being, the mysteries of existence, and the journey through life's ups and downs. Whether you're joining us for the first time, or you're a regular listener, I'm your host, Brian D Smith, and I'm thrilled to have you with us today. And I'm really thrilled to have our guest today. His name is David Gaggin. He's a remarkable individual whose life's work embodies the quest for understanding the the deeper truths of our existence, all the stuff we talked about here on Grief to Growth, the nature reality, the big questions. David is an accomplished electrical engineer. So we're fellow engineers. And if you— in case you don't know, I'm a chemical engineer. And he's made significant contributions to the fields of aviation and defense. But he's also embarked on a profound spiritual journey, seeking answers to some of life's most fundamental questions. Who am I? Where am I? And why am I here? He's the author of Our Eternal Existence: A Metaphysical Perspective of Reality. It's a book that blends a unique blend of science, spirituality, and metaphysics to explore the essence of who we are and the reality that we inhabit. With the career-spanning roles from designing flight control systems for Boeing helicopters, to being the CEO of Cobham Defense Electronics Systems, and even hosting the Common Sense Spirituality Show, his diverse experiences have helped shape his intriguing perspectives on metaphysics, science, religious— religion, consciousness, and the power of thoughts and beliefs. All the stuff I love to talk about. So today we're going to dive deep into those themes. We're going to challenge the conventional boundaries between science and spirituality, and we're going to explore the metaphysical view of the world that David passionately advocates. Through our conversation, we really aim to uncover how thoughts shape our reality, the importance of beliefs in our daily lives, the fundamental nature of consciousness, and the profound connection that we share with the divine. So with that, I want to welcome David Gaggin to Grief 2 Growth.

Hi, Brian. Nice to be here with you.

Yeah, I'm— as you could tell from our conversation before and from the intro, I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. Just to let you know a little about my, my background, as I mentioned, I'm a chemical engineer. I love exploring this, this kind of stuff. And as I was reading your bio and about your book, I'm like, this is the guy I want to have on and talk about this stuff with. But before we get started, you know, we have this battle we feel like between science and religion, and you introduced something called metaphysics. So tell me what metaphysics is.

Meta means— meta means beyond. And, uh, so, so basically it's beyond physics. So, so what you're getting is, you know, that science looks at physics, the physical world, metaphysics, it considers the physical world, it considers religion, but it considers everything else too, philosophy, ESP, all of the other things. So it takes everything that you could possibly think of and it puts it into the package that says, okay, we have to consider that. We can't We can't have certain elements like science says, well, ESP doesn't exist. Well, ESP does exist. So we need to, we need to consider that if you're trying to figure out what's going on.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I guess there was a kind of a split between science and religion, you know, a couple hundred years ago where science said we're going to just study the physical and religion said we're just going to study the spiritual. And we stay in our silos. And it sounds like you're saying metaphysics is considering everything.

Right, it pulls it, it pulls them both in it. If you, you know, a lot of times some people, they get down on religion and say, hey, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's a lot of dogma and such. And obviously there is a lot of dogma in it. But if you go back long enough, you go back to the Bhagavad Gita, you go back to the early religions, the early things that Jesus said, That's good stuff. And, and so that needs to be considered when we're trying to figure out, you know, what's going on around us. So, you know, you really need to, you really need to take the whole picture into account.

Yeah. So what got you interested in the metaphysical?

Well, you know, that's a good question. My, when I was in high school, my dad would, he was an avid reader, and he'd, he'd give me things like Velikovsky's World in Collision. And, you know, I'm like 14 or something, read this, and I'd read it. And he'd say, what do you think? And I I'd say, you know, Dad, I don't have a clue. And he'd give me aku-aku and, you know, Easter Island stuff. And he said, what do you think? I don't know. But, you know, what I couldn't help but notice is that I wasn't getting taught any of it in school. And then I, you know, I'd go to church and I'd look around and I'd see all this beautiful stained glass windows and the robes on the priests and ministers. And I'd think, I don't know what the answer is, but this probably isn't it. And so I was just curious. I was curious all my life. And then, you know, then I had to go make a living. So I became an engineer. And, but I always studied the, you know, everything I could along the way to see if I could figure out what's going on.

I, yeah, my background, I guess, is similar. And again, it was, I was like, okay, they're telling me this one thing in religion, and science is saying something completely different. You know, what if they're both right in, in a sense, you know. So, uh, I think a lot of times people feel like we have to make a choice between one or the other.

Yeah, I, I think you're right. And, and each one has its own, has its own piece. But if you look at, uh, you know, you look at science and you say, uh, you know, quantum theory, you know, we can figure out what's going on there. But if you tie that in with metaphysics, all of a sudden metaphysics starts explaining how, how that really works, how quantum theory works, as an example. And so, yeah, you have to, you have to think of it all. You have to look at all of the stuff that's around us to really understand the heck's going on.

And I know that you, you, you say that consciousness is fundamental. So first of all, what is consciousness to you? And in what way is it fundamental?

Consciousness is an attribute of energy. And to me, energy is the only thing that exists. That's all, that's everything that we see, all the forms that we see, all the shapes. It's just energy in a specific form. And so, so consciousness is a, is an element, an attribute of that energy, which means that everything is conscious, that conscious to some level. And what we're trying to do is evolve. What everything is trying to do is evolve to expand our consciousness. So, so when we would look at, for example, an atom, an atom is conscious. Now, it's not conscious like you and I are conscious, but it's self-aware and it's aware of its surroundings. So it's its awareness would be much smaller and more confined than ours. But it is growing and it is evolving on its own. And our consciousness started out around there too. So we've all come a long way. And the beauty of it is we have a long way to go.

Yeah. So the idea that consciousness is fundamental is the idea that consciousness is a— it's— it is what everything is created of, is what I think I hear you saying.

Exactly. Everything is conscious. It's all created from energy, but that energy is conscious energy. And that's everything. That's, that's God. That's everything. You know, the life force is the energy is the life force. And that life force is conscious. So that's, you know, you can't make any, you can't create something that's not conscious. In other words, our car is conscious. But our car is very different than us. Our car has no intent. You and I have an intent to do something, to evolve, to expand ourselves. Our car has no intent. Our Volkswagen, that doesn't intend to become a Mercedes. It just kind of is. And in time, that car, all the conscious parts of that car, will leave the car and they'll go somewhere else and they'll evolve somewhere else. They won't stop evolving. But they won't be a car anymore. They may remember being parts of that car, but they won't— they won't be a car. They'll be something else.

Yeah, that's a really interesting concept. And it seems to go back to— I think a lot of religions, you know, in the past have taught that everything is conscious, that the trees are conscious, that the water is conscious, that the rocks are conscious. And we've moved away from that in our materialistic scientific world. We said, well, no, this is consciousness and that's not conscious.

Exactly. We've, you know, and as you look down, you know, you look down and you say, well, you look at your pet and you know your pet is conscious. So it's not just humans, it's the pets. Well, farther down the animal line, they're clearly conscious too, because you can see when they die. Well, plants are conscious. A lot of people don't realize that, but there's been a lot of very interesting experiments done on plants where plants will actually recognize somebody who goes by. If one saw an interesting article where somebody intentionally, because it was an experiment, burned a leaf of a plant. And, and it had— and they were— they, they had instruments on the plants to see how it reacted. And when that person came by again, it would recoil. It wouldn't recoil with the other people, but it would recoil. It knew what that person had done to it. So, you know, so you can start to see where consciousness, you know, even our science is starting to see to see where— how consciousness goes down. Well, of course, goes down a lot lower than that, too. But it's kind of interesting that the science is coming along. They're just a long way from it. But there's a lot of people, individual scientists, that are— that are realizing that the world is not as it appears to be.

Stay with us. We'll be right back. You know, one of the hardest things about grief Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. Yeah, I've heard the expression that science progresses one funeral at a time.

I like it. I like, I like Brian D Smith.

Yeah. You've got to get these guys out of the way that have this, this paradigm that says, you know— and it's funny when we talk about consciousness and animals, and you said, of course we know our pets are conscious. But when my daughter was in college working on her psychology degree, they were, they were debating about this, and there were people in her class who were debating that animals aren't conscious. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. How could you not recognize that animals are conscious?

Yeah, exactly. It's a Yeah, it's— some of the things that go on in our colleges are questionable at best.

Yeah. And, and the experiment you mentioned, I heard recently there's an experiment where they put up— when they put plants in and they'll have like two dishes at the bottom, one with water and one without water in it, and the plant will grow toward the dish with the water in it. Now, you know, that is expressing to me intent, is showing consciousness. And I, and I guess they even put like a recording of running water under one side, and the plant would grow toward that.

Yeah, fascinating stuff. Really, really interesting stuff.

So what is the implication of consciousness being fundamental and consciousness being what everything— and everything being conscious?

Well, I think, you know, I think it just changes our whole perspective of the world and where we are and why we're here. You know, when, you know, we think of ourselves as, you know, being plopped down here and we don't know why and everything, and we're very different from everything else. And it turns out we're not different from everything else. We're the same as everything else. And religion is big to say, yeah, well, there's God out there and God and you are very different. And the fact of the matter is, We're different in the level of consciousness, without a doubt. But, but our, but our substance, our fundamental substance is different. You know, we're just not very far along on the path compared to where the Tao or the universal consciousness or, you know, whatever you want to call it, God is. So, so the implication is huge. And it also tells you that, hey, this isn't a one-shot deal. You know, you're not, you're not just coming down here having a life and then bingo, that's the end of it. And, and the thing about that is that you end up responsible for your actions. And once you realize you're responsible for your actions, you'll think twice about some of the actions that you decide to do. What goes around comes around. You know, you're not going to be a terrorist if you think that You know, you're going to be caught up by a terrorist next time around, you know. So you're going to think differently about how you treat other people. Other people are going to think differently of how they treat you. World would be a lot better if they realize that, hey, we're all part of one and we're just trying to learn about basically ourselves. You know, that's what God's trying to— Tao or universal consciousness. He's trying to turn about it, learn about itself, because that's all that exists. Everything is within the Tao. And so, you know, so what are we trying to learn about? We're trying to learn about ourselves, our little tiny piece of the Tao. And that's, you know, and that's what our focus is.

Yeah, it's a really interesting concept that I ran across. I read Tom Campbell's book, My Big TOE, My Big Theory of Everything. And he talks about, you know, the creation of the, the how everything came into existence, which sounds similar to like maybe the Christian creation story. But we've said that God is perfect, God is complete within God's self, God doesn't need to learn anything, God doesn't need to grow. And my understanding of this, this is like the exact opposite, that God is learning through being us.

Without a doubt. And, and, and, you know, that, that's— can you imagine what hell would really be if you were never going to learn anything and you were just sat there perfect? I mean, that's no way to go through eternity. And so, you know, the value of learning is what gives us a value of enjoyment and existence. And so you're not going to get, you know, God is not going to want to, want to be something that is stagnant, is, you know, is complete. It's— God is evolving just like the rest of us. It's just, just evolved farther, a lot farther, but, but still farther. And we have a chance, we'll never catch up. But we'll always have new interesting things that we're learning, we're growing. And we'll— and what we learn goes into God's database. Because, right, God, you know, he's, he's using us to help him learn. And I use the him only because that's the way our language works. You know, there is no, there is no gender, except when you're in the physical world.

Yeah, I just said that, that kind of flips what some religions teach on its head, that God is, again, God's complete, God is perfect. And when we say learning, it's not necessarily gaining knowledge, but gaining experience. What's it like to whatever, right?

That's, that's really how we do learn. We have experiences, and that's what we come down here to learn, to, to, to do, to experience. And, and what comes out of it is a psychological understanding of something. And it's, it's, you know, we don't have— we think we have physical experiences, but these But all of these physical things around us, like this computer that you and I are working on, and my desk and my chair, and, you know, these are just items or symbols that allow me to have a psychological experience with you. And that's all that there is. There's psychological experiences, and those are the experiences that are remembered by our inner self and get transferred up to the, you know, to our soul and, you know, inner spirit and end up— it's those psychological experiences that end up in the Akashic Records, if you will, to, you know, it's, it's not the physical stuff. Physical stuff is not going to be around here forever. But those psychological experiences will be around forever. And so it's the psychological experiences that really the only thing that that matter. The rest of it is, you know, they're tools that allow us to have events and, you know, and discussions and whatever.

So when it comes to the metaphysical, how do we study something like that? How do we even go about to explore that?

Well, you know, there's a, there's a lot of ways. There, there are channels that you can, that you can use. Michael is one of the ones that I use, Shepard Hoodwin was, and he is in our eternal existence. He did the foreword for me. He said he's a channel for an entity, and an entity is basically 1,000 souls. And this is his definition of it. And it's 1,000 souls that have gotten together, and they've had their experiences on, on this planet. They're done with the physical planet for at least this particular grand, grand cycle for a while anyway. And they happen to be in the causal plane, which is the next one up. We have 7 fields of creation, and the causal plane or field, if you will, is the one right above the astral. And the astral is the one that we go to when we die, and we go back and forth between the astral and the physical. Well, anyway, this group eventually comes together and they came here together and they, and they left together and they're up in the causal field. In the causal field, one of the things you do is you interface and try to help humanity in whatever level you can. After you go up into the higher fields, you get kind of, you get away. Generally, you get away from humanity for a while. But what you do is you talk to them and they give you answers. And they're fascinating. You can ask them anything you want, they'll give you the answer. And they're fascinating people. But you know, Seth was another one. She came through Jane Roberts. And, you know, some people, you know, are saying that they can contact Seth right now. I haven't been all that pleased with the ones that I've looked at that are, that are contacting Seth now. But I'm very pleased with what Jane Roberts did. Of course, she died in the, what, the '80s, I guess it was, 1980s, thereabouts. So anyway, yeah, it's, it's, you know, you can study it, there is information there. And quite frankly, there's a lot of, you know, out-of-body experiences are a good way to study aspects types of it. Near-death experiences, you know, a lot of those, and they're, and they're basically out-of-body experiences, a certain aspect of an out-of-body experience. But there's a lot of ways to, you know, that you can look at them. You can look at apparitions, and then you say, okay, what's an apparition? You know, you know, do they really exist? Well, they do exist. And they, and, and it's just, you know, it's, it's a particular soul that hasn't stop focusing, you know, it's lost its body, but it hasn't stopped focusing on the physical world. And so it's kind of halfway in between, and part of its consciousness is still, still, you know, available in its aura. And, you know, around, it won't be forever, but it's, you know, so there's a, there's a whole bunch of ways, you know, all these ESP things that they're doing. Remote viewing is an interesting way. To do it, you know. Uh, Russell Targ did some fabulous work on that.

Yeah.

So, um, you know, so there's a lot of ways to study metaphysics.

And it's interesting as you say that because science has kind of tiptoed around it. They've studied precognition, they've studied ESP, they've studied remote viewing, of course, you know, a little bit of like telekinesis. And they'll, they'll dabble in it, but then you'll get some people that call themselves hardcore scientists who will swear because they can't explain it, that it cannot exist, that it just, it can't exist.

Right. And but then they can't explain quantum mechanics, and yet they accept that. So where do you go there?

You know, but they, they bought into that kicking and screaming though.

They did it. They did indeed.

No, no, you know, Einstein didn't even like the idea of—

No, he didn't. Yeah, he didn't. No, he didn't. David Bohm, you remember David Bohm? He wrote He probably wrote the quintessential book on quantum mechanics. And his book is— well, you really got it if you wanted to really study his book. It's a deep, deep book, you know. But he's had other books that he talked more philosophically. And he worked with Einstein for years, and they had a falling out when he said, hey, there's, you know, this quantum mechanics is real. And Einstein wouldn't go along with it, so they kind of split ways. But, uh, interesting, interesting guy, you know.

And, and it's funny, as we talk about consciousness and I think about some of these, you know, so-called philosophers— I, I can't remember the guy's name at the moment, um, but he basically said, because they can't explain consciousness, said, well, it doesn't exist, it's just a— it's an illusion, it's an elaborate illusion that we fooled ourselves into thinking we have consciousness. And I just laugh when I I hear stuff like that.

It's amazing. It's amazing. Some otherwise intelligent people.

Yeah.

Uh, you know, they, uh, you know, they just can't, uh, they just can't see it. I mean, how many scientists have said, hey, we're the only, we're the only planet out there with life on it, you know? I mean, right? It's just, it's just hard to understand that people could, could think that way, but they do.

So, um, when you, when you have this, this philosophy, this view of life where that, you know, religion kind of says, okay, well, that's, that's not right because God is this or that, or, and science says, well, that's not even possible. How do we, how do we bring this to people and so they don't just dismiss it? Is because when you were talking about like channeling and, and, you know, out-of-body experiences, I, I hear the word woo-woo all the time. Oh, that's, that's woo-woo.

Yeah. You know, you have to be ready for it. You know, there's a lot of people that aren't ready for it yet. But more and more people are coming, more and more people are, are, are becoming ready to look at the world and realize that we live in this illusion. And, and, and to understand it. I, you know, the age— Michael says that the age of mankind is growing because, you know, there's 5 different ages that we're here. There's infant, baby, young, mature, and old. There's a couple other ages, but we don't, we don't go through those in the physical plane here. And, and if you get as many old people that are dying and going out the other end and infants coming in, and the age of mankind is not going to go anywhere. But apparently, because of the difficulty in our society, they've stopped putting new infants in, and therefore mankind, our culture, is getting older and older. And right now we're about level, uh, 5 or 6. Mature. And as, as, as you said, as people die, then they come back at a little bit higher level than they were before. And so you've got all of these people coming back at a higher level. So, so we're getting smarter, we're getting wiser. The whole, the whole culture is— you and I don't see it so much because we see such a snapshot in time, such a small instance. But, but if you took a broader picture of it, the world is, is getting wiser because, because of that.

I have never heard that before. But that makes sense to me. So because people I've heard also explain, like, okay, we're like a baby planet, we have a bunch of baby souls around here that don't know what they're doing. And I could see like, whatever is, you know, looking at this overseeing, we have a problem here, we've got to up the intelligence of these of this planet.

Yes. And that's, and that's exactly what's happening. But, you know, we're, we're in an R&D environment, and not just us, this whole universe is an R&D environment. And they're trying to figure out, you know, there's a lot of different souls at about our level. And I say a lot, a stack, I couldn't even give you a number, you know, around the, around the universe that, you know, that, that the Tao, if you will, is trying to figure out what's the best way to evolve these souls. So on our planet, we have been, we have been given an unlimited amount of aggression that we can do. Well, while some, some planets, the aggression gets capped, you know, you only get so, so frustrated, and all of a sudden, bingo, you're capped. And, and that makes for a much pleasanter planet, but you don't grow as fast as we're allowed to grow here. Now, the problem with here is we could— we have the capability of dissolving ourselves, right? Exactly. You know, self-destruction. But what happens if we do? Well, we could ruin the planet. But what would happen is we would make the planet so it was uninhabitable for certainly us and maybe, maybe everything else that's on here, you know, in the way of plants and animals. But whatever it was, What we do, we just end up— we'd all learn a lesson. The Tao would learn a lesson. And we go to some other planet and, you know, and continue our evolution. So, you know, it's not, you know, it's not the end of the world if it happens. But it— but we're an experiment. We are allowed to be unlimited. Our aggression is— it can be unlimited. And so, you know, so makes for a tough life. But, you know, we chose it. We didn't— we weren't told to come here. We were offered an opportunity to come here because we could evolve faster if, if, if we made the right decisions than we could in other places. So that's why we came here. Yeah, I have a tough life.

Yeah, I have a friend who's very metaphysical and out-of-body experiences and stuff like that. And we were having lunch one day and I'll never forget, he was like, you know, because I think he said he was Pleiadian. And he said, you can learn more in like 10 minutes on Earth than you can learn in like 10,000 years in some other environments because of the contrast. And so when we're here, we view this as like, this is a disaster, this is a mess. Why would God allow, you know, this to happen? And but it's because of it that that challenge allows us to grow.

Yes, that's absolutely right. And the other thing is, you know, we fear death because we don't understand it. Death is just changing your focus. Death is— you wouldn't want it any other way. You wouldn't want to be down here in this body forever and ever. You'd want to— you want to go and start fresh and start new. And, and so what you do is, is when it comes time to die— and by the way, we, we plan our death just like we plan our birth. So it depends on what path we choose. And we have a complicated pre-life plan that does that. But we, we pick one of these paths. As we go along the way. And, and, and that path tells us when, when we're going to exit, when we're getting out of here. The spiritual world knows when you and I are going to die. We don't know, but the spiritual world does. And our inner self, our inner soul knows, certainly. But, but we don't. But it's— but once you realize that death is nothing, it's just a finish of this particular personality. But the mind, you know, and your inner self remembers everything. And, you know, and then it goes back and digests what it did and tries to learn from it. And then the soul creates another personality. So, you know, Dave Gagin and Brian D Smith are never coming back again. But our soul is coming back and our personalities will always exist. And we'll just come back in a different form with different biases, different experiences that we want to do, that the soul wants to do. It's the soul that's making these decisions up. And so, you know, we end up, you know, death is really something that's not to be worried about. And once you, and once you get over your fear of death, then you can, and you can start to live.

Yeah, that's a great point. And, and you just said something that's an understanding that I've come to only recently in the last several years, because again, we, we hear some religions say that we reincarnate, and then we hear some Christians say we absolutely do not because we only— the man only dies once, and you know, whatever, whatever that verse is that they pull out. And I think it's— I always look at like, how did these— how do we reconcile these two things? So I see it kind of, I think the way you said, it's like the soul creates a personality like a Brian or Dave Gagin, and we come here. There's only one life as Brian. There's only one Brian. Brian will not come back here. But my soul will create another personality that, that's an aspect of the, this, and of this soul that will have the experiences, and those experiences kind of roll up into the soul.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And your psyche, your parts of your consciousness, will be in the subconscious of that, you know, of that personality. In other words, our subconscious, we have, you know, we have— when I break it up in our eternal existence in three ways, and I say, okay, we have an ego, And that ego is the part of our consciousness that focuses on the physical plane. And that ego runs the show when it's here, because it has to. It has to make the decision to step back if a bus is coming. And so it runs it. Then we have a subconscious, and that subconscious runs our body, and it pumps our heart, and it, you know, breathes for us, and it does all— releases the hormones and does everything. But there's another part of the subconscious that has all all of our past memories and in all our past lives. And so the personalities that, that our soul created, uh, you know, in this, in this time around, uh, they're all in our subconscious. So we have, we have access to that, that information. And a lot of that is your, is your intuition that, uh, you know, you, you think you ought to do something you go against your intuition, you're going against something you already learned. And I don't know if— how many times you've gone against your intuition, but every time I've done it, it never works out too well.

Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's the— that's what makes sense to me. And that's something I haven't heard a lot of people speak of it that way. Again, it's usually the— it's the one or the other. Either there's reincarnation, there's not. But there's— there's— I love the way you put that. It's like all of our other— because what we call our past lives They're all, they're all still with us. And that's why we have, I think, a lot of the tendencies that we have. And we, you can see children do not come in as blank slates. They just, they just absolutely do not.

They absolutely do not. When you, when you see a Mozart writing, uh, a concert when he's 5, you pretty much know that, uh, that, uh, that child had a whole bunch, uh, you know, when he, when he showed up. And, uh, and everybody He does. Everybody's a little different, but everybody shows up with a, with a, with a whole bunch of capabilities.

Now, and for people that are, that are new to these concepts, you know, one of the questions we always get is like, well, why do— what's the point of me forgetting everything? You know, if I've learned all this stuff before and I come back here and I can't remember anything, then what's the point? What— why, why, why the veil or whatever you want to call it?

Yeah, well, that's, you know, that's just kind of the way, the way it goes. You have to You have to forget because, one, you work with other people and they're the same people. You know, maybe there's a lot of them, but, but for example, your, your, your parents might have been your children before. Well, you couldn't, you couldn't function if you, if you had those two relationships going. So you have to forget what you had. Because again, what you're here to learn is to have experiences, and those experiences are the key thing. And, and it doesn't— you know, if you make a mistake, well, that's fine, but because you've come at that particular problem from a different perspective. In other words, you come down here and you have biases, you have attitudes, and you have modes you're in, and you have roles that you're playing. And these are physical biases or psychological biases that you have. So you're different. So when you come down there and you have the same experience, uh, you don't— it's not really the same experience because you're coming at that problem from a different perspective, right? So it's a different aspect of that. So it may seem like, you know, it may look like you got— you made the same mistake again, but you made whatever you did you did it from a different perspective. So you're really learning things very differently. You're having different experiences. And as you said earlier, it's really the experiences that we're, that we're here to have. And that's what we learn from all of these experiences.

Yeah, and it's funny, because sometimes I don't know why it seems like the memories or something, whatever, break through. We have these children that will look at their parents and say things like, well, when I was big, you know, or when I was— I, I, I, I used— I was a World War II fighter pilot. And they'll describe all the people that they were with and their, and their plane and, uh, the ship that they were on and stuff like that. And I just find that kind of stuff fascinating when it seems like the, the veil gets kind of thin or broken through every once in a while.

It does. And it's usually the children, because Ian Stevenson— did you— I don't know if you're familiar with him. Yeah, he, he did a lot studies on, on children. And he said that, you know, he found many of them that, that remembered their past life. And you're talking about 5-year-olds, 4, 5, 6-year-olds. And, and, and by the time that they were, they were teenagers, 12, 13, most of them had forgotten completely, right? And, and by the time they were done their teenage years, every one of them had forgotten. So, you know, we— this veil is, uh, you know, most of the people don't— you know, the veil is— veil is pretty heavy when you're, when you're born. But, you know, even for the ones that the veil is, you know, that they can see through and peek through, um, you know, that will be closed, you know, as they grow up and, and, uh, become adults.

Yeah. Are you familiar with Christian Sundberg?

Uh, Sunberg?

No, he wrote a book called A Walk in the Physical, and he talks about when he came in, he describes, you know, being veiled and coming in and all that. And I guess even when he was born, you know, the veil, he, he had like, he knew what was going to be, what was going to happen. He remembered his plan and everything, but it went away when he was like 5, and then he started having memories again when he was like 30. So he's kind of like been this back and forth thing where it's like But I guess when he, when he made the agreement to come here, he said, I want to be able to see through the veil, otherwise I'm not going. So he had that deal.

Well, you know, you can do that. You know, you can say you can set that up as that's one of the experiences that you want to, you want to have. Yeah. But, and I'll tell you, you can, you can see, you know, you get to go to a medium and these mediums, they, you know, they can see through parts of the veil. That's why they're able to, you know, communicate with, you know, the other side, what we call the other side, right? You know, because, you know, they, they have this telepathic capability. That's— I mean, we all have it, but they have it, they control theirs, and it's a little stronger than what we have.

Right, right. Well, you talked about channeling earlier, and it's my perception, it seems like there are a lot more channels I mean, I— maybe people are just talking about it, but I, you know, I keep hearing more and more channels and people channeling different entities. So I've, I've read the Seth materials. It's fascinating stuff. Um, and on the spot here, I can't think of some of the other entities that people are channeling, but there are people channeling all these different entities. Um, you mentioned Michael, and Michael, again, we think of, we think of them as individuals, but it's really a collection of souls or beings. And you mentioned a little bit about what they're telling us, but I, I keep hearing kind of like what you said, that the mankind is evolving, we're, we're on the cusp of something bigger or some sort of a breakthrough. Have you— has that been your experience? Have you heard that?

Yeah, yes, absolutely. Uh, and, and you get that from— I've got that from both through Seth and, uh, and Michael, you know, and, and they're saying, you know, that, uh you know, there's a lot of wise young beings reincarnating these days. And it's, you know, and society is indeed moving forward. And yes, there is, you know, there will be some major changes along the way. I don't know how sudden they'll be, but they'll be, you know, they'll be major changes. But, you know, it's funny how, you know, the other thing that Michael made very clear is that, is that we're only given a certain amount of technology. We, we weren't given the atomic bomb until they thought we could handle it. I'm not sure, I'm not sure it was a wise decision, but in any case, it was a decision. We won't be allowed to— so they say, uh, we won't be allowed to interface with other less developed civilizations until we until we learn how to get rid of killing in our own. Now, they'll let us interface with more developed because we can't hurt them. But, but, you know, we have to, you know, for us to, to have other areas opened up to us, we have to change ourselves and as a culture. And, and, and we're doing it and they're helping us do it.

Yeah, you mentioned something really interesting there. It's kind of an aside, I guess, but you talked about technology. And my— I'm sorry, I'm the belief that technology, our technology, does come from the other side. And it's interesting because science fiction writers, they predicted like stuff like we have now. I think that was channeled. It was like, who could ever envision, you know, wireless communication or pictures going, you know, television, stuff like that? So So you're saying that they're, they're just kind of like, okay, these guys, they can't handle this, so we can't have that, and they can't have that until they're more mature, right?

Uh, I, I, I, I agree with you 100%. Everything that is created here, uh, had its origin, uh, in, in the spiritual world, uh, everything. And, and so we're given some— and on a lot of these guys like Tesla and Einstein, they'll tell you that they, you know, that, you know, this kind of came to them. And, and, you know, you don't just sit there and figure it out. Somebody, you know, is giving that to you and bringing that along and entering that into the, into society. You know, there's a lot of very, very wise beings that are helping us evolve and trying to figure it out. They're not perfect. But they're, they're very wise. And they're trying to figure out what's a good way for us to develop and evolve, because that's really the whole idea is for us as a, as a society and us as individuals to evolve and become wiser as we, as we go along.

Now, have you heard about some of these ancient civilizations that had like super advanced technology that I don't know, for whatever reason, they're not here anymore.

Yeah, I did. I'm not sure that they're not here anymore, quite frankly. I'm pretty confident that they are, but they're, they're not playing the role that they used to play. I'll give you that. But I asked Michael, I said, how old's the pyramid? And he said, and he says, well, you know, it's a lot harder question than you would expect. Because there's a, you know, there's a lot of other aspects of time that are, you know, that are hard, harder to explain. But he said, to give you the best answer, you know, that I can, he said, the Great Pyramid was, was about 6— is about 16,000, 17,000 years old.

Oh, wow.

And I said, Who built it? And he said, the, uh, an alien civilization, uh, provided the technology for man to, uh, to build it. And, and, and you can see that that's— I mean, it's all over the— it's all over the planet, you know. It's just so obvious that, you know, there was an advanced society living here. You know, right now we're saying, well, you know, great, you know, the guys that built the, uh, the Great Pyramid, uh, were, you know, they just came out of the woods or the desert and put this thing together. I mean, we couldn't do it today. And I mean, it's silly stuff, but that's, but that's what mainstream— that's all that they, they're hanging their hat on it because they don't— otherwise they don't want to admit that there's a spiritual world behind the physical world. And that's got them in that— that's got them saying some really crazy things. The Big Bang Theory is a perfect example of that. Yeah, you know, you know, it just— it just didn't happen. And, and, you know, but the implications are big, because now all of a sudden, you're going to have people saying, what, I got one shot at being living here, there's nothing afterwards, and therefore, greed is the name of my game. And, and, and, and that's a real problem. And that's, you know, so their science in that, from that perspective, is doing, is doing a lot of harm because, you know, you can't, you can't take science and create an ethical set of standards out of it. You have to, you know, religion tried, but then, you know, too many guys got their, you know, their oar in the water and they screwed it up along the way. Right. But, but, you know, you need something like metaphysics, which is the only way you're ever going to get an ethical standard put into the, you know, put into this, this culture. You have to, you have to, people have to accept responsibility for their own actions. And, and, and you need an ethical standard to, you know, for them to do that, for them to understand why that that's critical.

Yeah, I think what you just said is, is so important, um, because I know a lot of materialists, atheists, atheists, materialists try to say, well, we could— we can be moral without religion. And it's, it's really interesting because we do have this influence of religion in our society, whether we want to deny it or not. So at least that gave us something to start with, because if you just come from the material and I am just an accident of nature and there are, there are no morals by that materialistic standard, there's no— and I've been there— no consequences beyond whatever short life I have, then why not do anything? You know, um, there's really— if you're just going to come from that perspective, there's no reason to respect anybody else or anything else.

That's exactly right. And, you know, we used to leave it up to parents and they tried to do it, and, and some parents do do it, you know, they help, but but a lot of people need more than that, and it's pretty clear that a lot of people need more than that. And, and, and so I think that's really, that's really hurting our, uh, you know, our, our evolution, quite frankly.

I think it is too. I think we took a big step backward when we moved away from, again, religion, spirituality, as flawed as it might have been. At least it told us something about The questions that you and I like to explore, who we are, why we're here, where we're going, what's the purpose of all this? If you take the metaphysical out of it or you take the spiritual out of it, you can't answer any of those questions. And science doesn't even try. Materialism doesn't even try.

That's exactly right. And if you go back far enough, religion was— it had a lot of good answers. I mean, a lot of good answers. You go back to the, you know, Hinduism, you know, has gone kind of crazy. But if you look at the basis of Hinduism, you know, it was, you know, Krishna and, you know, what he, you know, what he explained back there in the Bhagavad Gita and the Puranas and all of this stuff. That's good stuff. And it's, you know, it's something that you could, you know, that one fits our metaphysical view these days.

Exactly.

And, and it's not, you know, it hasn't been distorted by mankind over the, you know, over the time frame.

Yeah, it's interesting because I have a friend who's Hindu, and I've had him on my program a couple times, and he was telling me about, you know, the stuff that Hinduism— I started like looking at more of it. I'm like, this is what the metaphysical stuff, you know, guys are telling us today. This is people like Bernardo Kastrup that introduced me to idealism, the idea that everything is consciousness. And you— and he talks about like these creation stories, you know, the Creator, you know, fell into a dream, or, or the, the birth— the birth— Earth was birthed out of the Creator. It's all the stuff that we're talking about is like it all starts with an idea, it all starts with a, a dream, and we are like characters in a dream, in a dream. And science is finally starting to come around to that. They're saying, is this a holographic universe? Does anything really exist?

Yeah, more and more people are coming around. It's— they're coming. It's slow and it's not mainstream these days. But then when you ask yourself, well, what is mainstream science? Well, mainstream science is— it's in the universities and it's basically what the head of the department has to say. Right. And when he goes, then somebody else can step in and you'll get more evolution that happens in that department. As, as time goes on, as people go on.

Well, it's what can I get a grant for? It's like, where, where's, where's the money? And I realize that I'm working on a project called the Soul Phone that we've been working on for years, trying to get a physical device to communicate on the other side. And you, you can't get funding for something like that in mainstream science. Because first of all, they'd say it's impossible, right? And then where's Where's the money in it? What's it going to do for me?

Right? Yeah, it's all about, it's all about the money.

Yes.

Yeah. Which is unfortunate.

So, you know, I think I just said, do you channel Michael? Have you channeled?

I do not channel Michael.

Okay.

I do not, I do not have channeling capabilities that are developed well enough to do that.

Yeah, I don't either. But as I said, I think it's really interesting. And I'm finding more and more people seem to be channeling. So I'm like, it feels like, from what I'm hearing, is like, we're kind of at a tipping point. And we are at a point where we know we can destroy ourselves. And it's— and we have multiple ways of destroying ourselves. It's not just the atomic bomb. It's, you know, it's, it's climate change. And, you know, there's— we can pick, take our pick. And so I wonder, it seems like, as you're saying, we're starting to get more help because we're like, okay, these guys are at a point of crisis.

Right. I think that's very, very true. But as far as that, you know, channeling, channeling is various ways. My wife died 6 years ago, and after she died, my youngest daughter was able to do automatic writing with her. And that's very interesting. And so, you know, so I think people are developing these kinds of capabilities, and they don't realize that they have them. But, you know, when a circumstance presents itself, you know, and it's hard enough, and it's emotional enough, then, you know, more and more people are able to tap into this interface with, you know, with the other side.

Yeah, well, I'm sorry to hear about your wife. Um, but I know that, uh, again, it's just my perception, it's just anecdotal, but it seems like more people are tapping into— and we're getting permission now. I love— people complain about social media and they complain about the internet. I love the fact that now, like, like, I can put this program out and someone can, can have access to it. And I've learned so much from, like, just being on YouTube and watching people's channels and listening and finding out more stuff. So I think as we get permission to tap into these abilities, we all have them to a certain level, and we can develop them. And circumstances a lot of times drive it, drives us to it, right? So the loss of that person that I really need to get in contact with that person. So the automatic writing skill comes online.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. More and more of it's happening. More and more people are being able to develop the capability that we all have. We all have that capability. It's just that we, we, we, we don't use it as well as we could if we figured out how to do it. Yeah.

Another thing I want to talk to you about is, is I know you talk about dreams and the subconscious. So tell me about the role of dreams in our lives.

Okay. Dreams are different than anything you could possibly imagine. The— there is an I, and that I— that you and I have an I during the day, and that's our ego. And that's the— the ego is the part of our consciousness. That's the I. Well, the I in the— in your dream is not your ego because your ego is asleep. Your ego is not focused on the dreams. The I in your— in your dreams is your— is your inner self. And what's happening is when you die, and as I mentioned earlier, you know, you have all of these, these past personalities within your subconscious. And when you die, you have not resolved all the issues in your life. So those issues still need to be resolved. So what's happening is that is the dream world is indeed a reality, just like the physical world is. It's different. It's a— it runs under different, different universal principles. You know that a field can turn into a building and a person can turn into another building virtually instantaneous in your dream. But, but, but that's a real thing that's really happening. Just like it's not using the material that we have here that my desk is made out of, but it's using pseudo, pseudo material. And it's, you know, it's very real stuff. And what it's doing is the soul is going through and it's choosing which issues it wants to experience. So it's actually going through and solving the problems that were left over from our past lives. Well, the problem with that is one, we don't see much of it, right? We see just a tip of one of these dreams when we wake up. So we're seeing just a piece of it. Well, the other problem is these lives that they had had very different symbols. Symbols meant different things. I mean, simple things like fire, right? Fire can be comforting if you're used to lying in front of a fireplace with your honey and having a nice time. Or fire can be very fearful if it burned down your house, burned down your business and such. So that symbol will be very different, you know, from life to life and individual to individual. Well, so will all the other symbols. So the symbols that you will have seen and maybe a personality that lived 1,000 years ago would mean very different things to them than they seem to you. So trying to interpret and understanding— understand what these dreams meant is an extremely difficult task. However, the good part about dreams is you and me, because we're living lives, we have number one priority for our soul to help us solve our problems. So if we go to bed at night, and we try to, you know, right before we go to sleep or put a note under your pillow that says, I want to, you know, I want to solve this problem. Your inner conscious will solve that problem for you. It's a lot easier to get, you know, to get your dreams to do what you need done than it is to understand what all these dreams mean, because you just— you just don't have the, you know, the understanding. Of the basic symbols that are being used in the dream world. But dreams are— it's a different reality. It's not— but it's a very real reality. And those experiences, you will remember them forever. And they are just as important as the physical experiences that you have in this life, your dreams.

That's a really interesting perspective, you know. And it's funny because as I've started studying more and more, I'm having more lucid dreams. Sometimes in my dream world, I realize I'm dreaming, and I'm like, this is really cool that I created this wall, or that sun really feels real. You know, I'll have that thought in my dream. And I'm taking more of that into my waking life. And I'm working with this woman now that, that calls this whole thing that we're in a dream. And she's like, the goal is to become lucid in the dream. So I, you know, even I think you and I probably view it similarly. Everything around us is— it's just as real, just as unreal as when we're dreaming. Because when we wake up from a dream, when we're in the dream, we're like, this is real. And we wake up in our bed and we go, oh, it was just a dream, right?

You can carry your conscious— if you train yourself well enough, you can carry your conscious, uh, self, not the ego, but your other parts of your conscious self into your dreams and see the dreams. It's not an easy task, but you can, you can train yourself for it. Yeah, sounds like you're making progress in that. And that's great.

Yeah, the idea of lucid dreaming is really, you know, it's fascinating to me, and I'm working on that. But like I said, the other thing is, is becoming lucid within this dream that we're in right now.

Well, yeah.

Understanding that I'm not the, I'm not the guy sitting in the chair. This is, this is an avatar.

Yeah. That's about right. That's right. Your psyche is what's the real you. And, you know, this is a body that it's a vehicle. It's a vehicle to be able to experience this reality. If, you know, our inner self, our soul, if you will, can't experience this reality because it sees right through it. Right. And so you need to have something that has you know, our outer senses to, you know, to be able to sense it. A reality is what, two things. It's one, the energy has to be in a certain position and then a certain configuration. And then you have to have the senses to be able to perceive that energy. And so it's— we're a very complicated being to be able to actually, you know, exist in this, in this strange reality that we're in. And it is a strange reality, very strange reality. But we're, we're tuned to it.

Yeah. And, you know, we were talking earlier about our technology gets channeled from the other side. I think a lot of our, our art gets channeled from the other side, and especially movies. And I see, you know, there's a lot of movies now about the multiverse, you know, that's, that's a big theme in action movies, actually, now. But the movie, I think, The Matrix, the movie Avatar, you know, those movies have a lot of, a lot of really deep metaphysical, spiritual themes to them that people, I think, can grasp on a certain level.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. I think art comes— virtually everything that we get comes from the other side. We don't, we don't appreciate that. But, but yeah, everybody comes with certain gifts to be able to get it. And some people have stronger gifts, and they're the ones that, you know, are the Michelangelos, if you will, or the, you know, the great movie producers, and so on and so forth.

Yeah, I keep coming back to the movie The Matrix, which I don't know how long ago that was at this point. But every time I watch it, I get something different out of it. And, and I tied into like the conversation that we're having today that, you know, that talks about everything being code, and there's just, there's an ultimate reality. I mean, it's not, it doesn't translate perfectly, but the idea of that we are, that these are avatars, that, that we're in this reality, that's, that's, uh, it's a configuration for us to have this experience, right? And so, um, getting back to your, your book, and we've talked about a lot of the themes, and we've already touched on this, but tell people if when they get this book how it's going to change their perspective.

Okay, our, our eternal existence, a metaphysical perspective of reality, will give you— will, will allow you to have a more realistic view of who you are and what you're doing here and the world that you live in. And it gives you a much better feel for how you should act, what you should do, why you do things,. And it's certainly, if you're the type of person that says, hey, I'm, I'm a victim, poor pitiful me, everything happens to me, uh, it will show you that it's, it's, you made all these decisions, you created this world, and, and, and all of your problems are self-created. And oh, by the way, because of that, you and only you can solve those problems. You can fix your problems. But nobody else can. And we always, you know, we have a tendency to blame it on the boss or the spouse or the society or whatever we want to blame it on. And what we don't realize is that we create all of our problems and all of the things that go well for us. Now, we ought to take credit for the good things in our life, and we ought to realize that, hey, if we want to improve our life, whether that's our health our health or our financial situation or whatever, we have the capability of doing that. And, you know, so that's really what our eternal existence is all about. It's how— it's trying to put the power back in the individual so that they can realize that, hey, they're running their show and nobody else is running it for them. And they chose their parents, they chose their you know, their friends, they chose their kids, they chose the world that they're living in and how they react to the decisions that they made. That's, that's up to them.

Yeah, that it's a very sensitive thing when we say that you chose this because, you know, sometimes people feel like, well, you're blaming me for my problems. You know, it's not my, you know, it's you're saying it's my fault because it and, and even the word problem, can be a problem. I like the word challenges because I do believe that we create challenges for ourselves to see how we're going to— how we're going to deal with them. And I've talked to people who've had near-death experiences that will say, yes, I chose this abusive father, this abusive mother. I chose to have this so I could— so my soul could grow. Um, so it— for me, when you really get this, your perspective shifts as to what's a problem and what's a challenge.

Okay, you know, I agree with that. I agree with that. I think you're right. I think that's— looking at it as challenges is a better way, uh, of, of, uh, putting it in a— in such a way that you can handle it.

Yeah, I, I think that this, this venue, as my friend Cal calls it, this, this location that we're in isolate. It goes back to what we said near the very beginning. We have these extremes. We come in to experience the extremes. We, we could have chosen the cushy life. We could have chosen the place that didn't have this, um, but we chose this for a reason, right?

And, and, yeah, and, and it's a, it's, it's a way to evolve faster. And if, uh, you know, but it's a difficult way. And, and, but it's our choice. Yeah. And, and, and because it's our choice, we can, we can deal with it because we're capable of it. We don't, we're not, we never accept anything. We're never given anything that we can't deal with.

Yeah. I, I think that point of view is so empowering. Like I said, people might hear it at first and it might feel like fatalistic or, you know, whatever. I, but It actually, I think it's extremely empowering. It's, it's like, as you said, but it puts the power back in our hands, understanding that we are, we're these amazing eternal beings. And you talked earlier about, you know, the fear of death, which I don't have at all anymore. And when I, when I talk to people that, that are still dealing with that, and especially at my age, you know, I'm in my early 60s now, um, it's that's inevitable. Fearing that is not doing you any favors, right? So you might as well embrace it. And, and if you think about living forever in this body, that would be torment. That would be horrible.

It would, it would. You need it. You need, you know, and it's— you look at, you look at the criminals and the, and, uh, the terrorists and such like that, a lot of them die young. And they die young, I think, because the soul is saying, you know, we're going down the wrong path here. You know, we need to, we need to reboot. And, you know, so we need, we need to get, get this, get our psychology pointed in a different direction. And that's what death does for us. It allows us to go back, learn what are our mistakes and start afresh, start anew. And so, yeah, death is, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's the death is hard on the people that are left behind.

Right?

That's, that's the, that's the tough part. But, but for the actual person, when you die, that's a piece of cake. I mean, death can be hard, you know, the dying process, right? But death itself, a piece of cake, you know, no pain involved in that. And now you're, now your memory comes back, you're, you know, you're all set and you're happy and you're doing good things.

Absolutely. Well, David, uh, we're at, we're at our time. It's actually 11:11 here. Brian D Smith: It's been great getting to know you. And I love this conversation. Tell people how they— remember, mention the name of the book again, but tell people how they can get in touch with you also.

Okay, it's Our Eternal Existence by David Gaggin. That's G-A-G-G-I-N, Gaggin. And it's a metaphysical perspective of reality. You can go to my website, which is davidgaggin.com. And you can read about the book. You can place— you can hit it and takes you right to Amazon. You could buy it at Amazon or Barnes Noble. And then also, I live in southern Florida near Fort Myers, and I have a Sanibel Metaphysical Meetup group that if you're— it's easy to get in touch with and it's free. I pay for it all.. And we get together and talk about these type of things and anything you want to talk about in the way of metaphysical stuff.

I love it.

So we— I'd love to have anybody that's in the area come, come by.

I love it. I love what you're doing. I love this conversation. I like bringing these worlds together. So thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me, Brian. I really appreciate it. It's great fun.

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