Unearthing Intuition Following Loss: Sarina Baptista's Path to Mediumship

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith back with another episode of Grief 2 Growth. And today I've got with me Sarina Baptista. She's an award-winning author. She's an international speaker, a spiritual teacher, and she's an evidential psychic medium. Her latest book is called My View from Heaven. It's a 2019 COVR Visionary Awards Bronze recipient in the iconic book category, and the 2021 Speak Up Talk Radio Firebird Book Award winner in 3 categories. So it's a highly acclaimed book. She's a speaker feature for the Life, Death and Beyond International Conference in Crete, Greece. And she teaches classes and she's a visiting medium at Lillydale, New York during their summer program. She's a presenter at IANDS conferences. She and I have been on a panel together. And she's created many training programs, including spiritual mentoring, long-distance training workshops and retreats. She discovered her gifts through her own tragedy, the passing of her 7-year-old son JT in March of 2007. And she learned that her son didn't really die. He was still very close. And that led to— led her to incredible gifts. So Serena says it's her mission to help you find purpose and connection to your highest divine self, to create the bridge for conversations with loved ones who have passed, and to mentor psychics, and it's also to mentor psychics and mediums to be master messengers. So with that, I want to welcome to Grief 2 Growth, Serena Baptista.

Hello, thank you so much, Brian. It is so wonderful to be here on your program. You and I have, have a similar history in how we found ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to talk about JT. And first of all, tell me about JT.

Oh my gosh. He was such a beautiful, beautiful soul here. And he obviously is a beautiful soul where he is now. He left at 7, and what a young age. And it was not, of course, anything, as you know, not anything that any parent ever expects to experience, and just sent our whole family into this pit, you know, into a pit of grief. And we just didn't really know who we were anymore. But throughout the entire process, I could feel him. I knew he was close. I didn't even know what that meant, though. And I kept looking for him. I kept saying, where are you? I know you're out there somewhere. Where are you? And he would drop these little breadcrumbs for me to search for him and to find him. It was really ingenious what he was doing. And, you know, we think of them as, you know, I thought of him as a little 7-year-old, but he really wasn't at that point. He was this master soul, is a master soul. And he, his purpose was to guide me to who I am, which is a psychic medium, and I'm here to help others. He is a, he's now my master guide and is just an incredible, incredible force. He comes to all of my students. And if you do read the book, My View from Heaven, that was written by him. And if you do read that, then he will also visit you as well if you are open to that, which I think is so cool. And I get stories all the time about, I was I was reading your book and, and JT was right there. And he showed me he was there by doing this, that, and the other. So he's, he's definitely a force on the other side for sure.

So if you don't mind, tell me how he passed at 7 years old.

That's— I know. Yes. Both. Yes, he and my daughter who was 5 at the time, they both caught the flu. And I had no idea that his was going to be deadly. I didn't have any idea. You think, oh, kids get the flu, right? And his sister actually had a very high fever. I was more— she was throwing up. I was more concerned about her. He was just uncomfortable. He was very uncomfortable. And so I would monitor him, monitor her. But then what happened on that Thursday evening before he passed, I got food poisoning. Because I was thinking about taking him to the hospital. It just wasn't getting better. And I was thinking about it and I got food poisoning and I was laid out. I had a fever, I was convulsing. I mean, it was one of those things that the universe really made sure I did not go anywhere. And all of that broke at about 11 PM on that Thursday night. And so I immediately went in, checked on my daughter, she was sleeping. JT was restless, he wasn't sleeping. So I just hung out with him. And We even went for a car ride at 2 AM just to try to calm him down, chill him out. Nothing was really working. He was very restless. And it was about 3 AM when we were both in his room. And he said to me, I was laying in the bed next to him because his brother and he shared a room. But his brother was downstairs. I didn't want him to get exposed to any of this. And he said to me, go to your room, Mom. And I said, oh, you want to come to the— come to the big bed? Let's see if we can get you comfortable. He says, no, you go. I want to watch TV. He knew I couldn't sleep when the TV was on. And that was definitely the cue from somebody. Somebody gave him that to get me out of the room. Otherwise, I never would have left. That was my baby. You know, he was— well, he was my firstborn, but definitely a mama's boy. And he would never have sent me out of the room. He wanted me to be close to him all the time. So I, after having food poisoning all day, and being very, very tired, I said, okay, I'm gonna go, I'll go to my room. I'll check on you in just a little bit. I went to my room and went to sleep for just 2 hours. That was it, just 2 hours. I woke up and went to— I was walking across my room. And I just had this thought What if I go in there and he's not alive? Now, where does this come from? Because I, up until this point, it was, this is just a standard flu, we just have to get him through it. He's just uncomfortable. The flu doesn't kill kids, right? He's a strong kid. And so the thought just of that startled me, shocked me. And I said, no, I'm not, I'm not going there. I went to his doorway. And he was very peaceful. But he was also hanging partially off the bed. And I thought, well, that's odd. And then I saw his chest wasn't moving. And at that point, I realized that what I had thought before was probably what had happened. So screamed for my husband. He came up. JT was a big boy for being 7. He was, he was a pretty, pretty big kid. So my husband got him on the ground. I started CPR, and my husband called 911. And as I was doing CPR, I could sense that JT wasn't there anymore. And again, I had no idea how I knew this. But I continued until the police came. They took over. Doing the CPR. Then EMS came, the fire trucks came. And this was all at 6 in the morning. And so they worked on him for 45 minutes here and tried to get him back. And then they took him to the hospital and worked on him for another hour trying to get him back. And at that point, obviously, he had decided not to come back. As much as I pleaded and screamed at him driving to the hospital, I, you know, I screamed to get back and come back to me. And I was sure that he would do that. I mean, this doesn't happen, right? This doesn't happen. We were in this, in this alternate, alternate reality where this happened. You just never think, you just never think in your wildest dreams that this would happen. But it did. Yes.

I— it sounds almost exactly like our story.

Wow.

Yeah. With Shayna, well, it wasn't flu. She just, she just didn't wake up one morning. But, you know, I went for a walk that morning, and I came back and I was in my office working. And my wife had been trying to reach her by text because Shayna was supposed to work. We have a business in the home, and Shayna was supposed to come down and work, and it was getting pretty late. And Tawana thought she's just sleeping in and We went in and, you know, she wasn't responding. So I know that feeling. CPR, yelling at the top of my lungs, thinking maybe somebody should hear me and come back. Yes. Going to the hospital. And for me, you know, just like not accepting the fact that she wasn't coming back. It's like, I even though I should have known intellectually, because she hadn't been breathing for at that point, nobody knows how long. But they worked on her for quite a while. So As you're telling that, for parents who have gone through this, you know, you understand what we're talking about. It's just, it's like surreal.

It is surreal. Absolutely surreal. And I even asked the officer, because the ambulance left with JT, I didn't even know it. I wasn't even dressed yet. So I went up, threw on some clothes and came back down. And I said, what are, what are his chances? And he hemmed and hawed. You know, he knew, but he didn't want to say it. So he said, well, he was still a little warm. And so I held on to that. Yeah. And while they were working on him, I'm in my bedroom, I'm screaming at him. And I don't know if they, if they hear that, you know, I thought that they would think that I was not screaming at my child to get back into his body. But that's what I was doing at the time. Again, I wasn't a medium. Well, I surely was, but I didn't know I was a medium, didn't know I was psychic. I just was trying to pull out all the stops and get that kid back. And he had other plans, obviously.

Yeah. Yeah. So what were your beliefs at that time in terms of— you weren't a medium yet. So what were your beliefs about what happens when we pass?

I do— I did believe that we had something after this. There was enough evidence. I had enough experiences in my life. My stepbrother passed when I was 17 and came to me in dreams and visions and and all of that. And so I knew that there was something after. And I knew it was beautiful. I didn't know what the extent was. I didn't know how they got there or anything like that. But you know, as well as I do, and other people who are listening who have lost children, once that happens, everything that you believed, everything that you thought was real and true is demolished, it is leveled, and you have to rebuild that. And that's, that's what I found self doing? Well, what are my beliefs? Where is my son? How do I get back to him? How do I find him? And again, I knew that he was there, I could just sense that. But I didn't know how to find him. And again, thanks to his tenacity, he was very determined in getting me the books that I needed to read, and the people who I needed to know and be introduced to and all of that. It was a boom, boom, boom process. And before I knew it, I had found him. I'd found him.

So he brought books and people and things into your life.

Yes.

That happened first. The mediumship happened first.

No, that happened first. I don't know if I would have found the mediumship without that. The one book that really, really opened my eyes was Journey of Souls by Michael Newton, PhD. And I was reading that and decided that I needed to have one of those life between life regressions. And to see, because everybody I hadn't intuitive friends, you know, again, I didn't think I was intuitive. Intuitive friends say, oh, he's got big plans for you. You agreed to this. And I really wanted to slap them. I don't know if people told you that, but I wanted to slap them because I'm like, what do you mean I agreed to this? I agreed to have my son die from the flu? What, what was I thinking if that was the case? So he brought Journey of Souls to me. And I read that and I said, I have to have one of these life between life regressions. And so I contact contacted the LBL person that was in my area in Colorado at the time. And on the phone message, they said, well, there's a 6-month wait and, you know, all of that. I thought, oh gosh, well, I'm just going to go ahead and leave my number anyway, because I have to get this done. Within 2 minutes, they had called me back and said they had a cancellation for the following week. And did I want it? And at that point, I'm saying, oh, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. I have to find these answers I have to figure this out. And so I did. I went to the life between lives regression. And it was an off, off the wall, off the charts experience. I found him again, I did see that I agreed to it. In fact, he showed me, he showed me this vision of us, the soul family sitting around a table. And me saying, oh yeah, that sounds like a great idea. Let's do it. I heard myself saying that.

No, your idea or his idea? I'm just have to ask.

It was his idea. I was just agreeing to it. Yeah. I was agreeing that, yes, this is, this is a great idea. Let's do this. And once I saw that, in that life between lives regression, I thought, okay, I didn't understand it. I didn't understand contracts at the time or anything like that. But I learned, I learned very quickly from that moment forward. And I did more research, you know, and I'm an engineer by previous life, you know, I was a software engineer. And so I have that mindset of, you know, of research and analyze and all of that. So I went there in order to find the intuitive and, and open myself up. But that was really the beginning. Was that life between lives regression.

So then what was your first experience with mediumship?

So then I had a— after that, I was led to have a mediumship reading by someone. It was a phone reading. I'd never met this person. They were in California. I was in Colorado. I was through a friend. I never recommend, you know, opening up the Yellow Pages and doing the Psychics R Us. I wanted to understand that it was someone who they had, they had previous experience with them. You know, I was very skeptical. I really was. And so I had this, this session. And the first thing, she didn't even say anything about JT. She said, I have your guides here. And they say you have a contract, that you're doing a contract. And I said, well, I'm not really— she says, you're not signing for a house or anything like that? And I said, no. And she said, oh, This is your contract. I had no idea what she was talking about. She says it has very thick ink on it. And then she said, did you know you're a medium? You're just like me. You are the bridge between this world and the next. And I said, I had no idea. What do you do? Do you just wake up and you can start talking to dead people? I mean, how does that— how does that work? And she says, training, training, training. And so we talked for a bit. I did get into training right away. And my abilities flew in. They— it was so fast. I didn't even know what I was doing. You know, it was one of those situations where kids started coming to me from the other side to get messages to their parents. I didn't know about boundaries. I didn't know about— I couldn't even hear clearly yet. And clairaudience is one of my dominant clairs. And I really hadn't expanded that yet. And so I was just flying, you know, flying blind. But I did it and I continued to do it. And to get those messages. Edit.

Yeah, That's— so did you just— you started taking training and then you opened up, or when she told you were a medium, then that's when you opened up?

Well, that's a very good question. You know, I do feel that once she told me I was a medium, I was open to it. But it really wasn't until I went into the training that I could experience it. Because we all have the clairs, we all have hearing, feeling, seeing, and knowing. And mine at the time was feeling, I could feel everything. And I could feel JT around. But there wasn't that communication, there wasn't that connection. And so it wasn't until I got into training, where I trained my other clairs to hear mainly, and, and then that's when things really opened up and I could start hearing from the other side. And that's one thing that the medium said in that very first session that we had together. She said, oh, your guides tell me you can hear them. I started laughing. I said, I can't hear them. What do you mean I can hear them? And at that moment, in a strong male voice in my head, I heard, yes, you can hear us. And it was a little freaky at the time, because I had just discovered who I was. But at that point, I said, okay, I guess I can hear. And that became again, my dominant clairvoyance, but I had to train it. I did not just, I didn't just open, I needed to open it. And that's probably because, you know, as a child, we have to block those things. I feel we all come in with our abilities, but we have to block them because of parental things and societal things and all of that. So it took me a little bit of time to pry that open. But once it opened, and once that switch was flipped, it was so clear, I could hear JT and I could hear others just like they were in front of me or beside me.

So have you identified guides besides JT?

Oh, yes, definitely. And the team that I have, it changes, definitely depending upon what I need at the time. And so now I just say, okay, whatever guide can help me in this moment, please come and help me. And they're right there. And they talk with me. I've had different teams come in and out. During my training, during my learning. And now I have teams that come in for how I train others, because I do the mediumship training and also a lot of other training, Akashic Records and things like that. And that's all done by them. I never say that, that I am the, I am the one doing it. I say I'm the facilitator. And they are the ones, the master teachers on the other side, they're the ones that are actually doing the, doing the teaching and the training. So it's, it's a wonderful, wonderful connection, wonderful process that they have, that they use with me, and I just love it.

So at what point did you get the idea for the book? Did that come from JT?

That came from JT. I had written two books prior to that. And after, right after that second one was published, JT said, okay, now it's my turn. Now it's my book. I want a book. I want you to write a book. And I thought, well, I just got this one out. Can we just, can we just take a moment? Can we just take a step back for a second? He said, nope, I've got to get this out. And I said, okay, how is this gonna look? You say you're gonna write this? How does that look? He says, well, you know how to talk to me. You know how to channel that information. And so what I would do is I would have a microphone set up Word document up, the voice-to-text set up on the computer. And then I would just speak, I would meditate. And I would say, okay, JT, what do you want to talk about? And I would just speak it into the microphone. And obviously, and then it would go on to the Word document, I'd have to go back in and make some edits, of course, and say, okay, JT, did you really mean to say this? And the concepts that he was talking about, hmm, they were pretty wild. I mean, they were things that you don't ordinarily hear about in mainstream books and things like that. You do hear about them in, you know, spirituality books and, and all of that, you know, the mind-body-spirit stuff. But at the time, I mean, this was, you know, a while back now. And at the time, it was very new information to me. So he would give me something, he would— I would speak it onto the paper. And then I would say, you know what, bud, I've got to take a break here. I need to let this assimilate because this is really blowing my mind. And so I'd have to stop, go like out in the garden or something along those lines and get my feet grounded onto the grass. And I say, okay, what does this all mean? What does this mean? Again, some of these things about, you know, where he is and how we come here and where we come from originally and all of that, that it just, yeah, it was, it was a lot. Yeah. Now I understand it. You know, after all these years, it's, it now I understand it. And a lot of people are saying the same things as he said back then. So yeah, I get it.

So tell me about some of the concepts that surprised you as JT was telling them to you.

Well, part of it, you know, the whole bit about where we are from, you know, that we're not really from here, that we're from elsewhere, and we come here to help the Earth, to assist in, you know, raising frequency and getting, getting people back to who they truly are. And instead of, instead of just the physicalness of people, really bringing back that spiritual peace for people. And, you know, it seems like a simple thing, right? That, well, sure, we're, you know, we had to originate somewhere. But it really did take me a bit to understand. I did believe in, again, past lives and, and that in-between state, but I didn't have a concept of what came before that. And so he assisted me in understanding that, you know, that we do come from other places, and that we've all come together here now, in a very special time, in a very special time to assist the planet and to, again, get people to understand that they are so much more than just their incarnations. That one was a big one.

Now, the question that a lot of us have, especially when we lose children young, is like, what are they doing? What's it, what's it like for them? And My daughter was 15. So she was a teenager. She's that in-between time. She's not quite an adult. She's still not quite a child, but a 7-year-old is still a child. So I'm sure you were concerned, like, where is he? Who's taking care of him?

Yes. Yes. Well, you know, the crazy things that go through your mind. You know, I was in Colorado at the time, and we had buried him and it snowed. And I was concerned he was cold. You know, those crazy things that parents think of. And, and I know I'm not the only one. And, you know, I had to shake myself out of that going, no, he's okay. He's okay. He's not cold. And yeah, trying to find him again or trying to understand. Yeah, what he's doing and all of that. He had some great stories though. Once I did connect with him and could hear him, we could have a conversation. I would say, what are you doing now? And he would show me in his hands this ball of fire. And he says, I'm creating. And I would say, what do you mean you're creating? How are you doing this? And he says, we can do this. Whatever we think of becomes reality. It's, it's just, you think of it, and it, and it exists. And so I am creating now. And I've got this, I've got this ball of fire that I'm creating from. And that, again, kind of blew me away. Because you think of the standard thing, you know, when my dad left and all of that, oh, he's, you know, he's in heaven, he's, he's in this very special place, and he's doing the same things that he was doing here. And, and I do believe that for a time period, we do have that, we have that ability to stay in that frequency. And to create, like my dad did, my dad created a house for himself. And he was very attached to physical. And he left very young, he was only 56 when he left. And he really felt cheated that he had to leave so early. So he did stay in that frequency of where you're like, you create your own, your own Earth-like things. And after JT left, and I did get connection with both of them, JT lived with him for a bit. And so they would come together, and it would be both JT and my dad. And then one day, JT came without my father. And I said, Where's, where's Grandpa? And he says, oh, I don't live with him anymore. And I said, well, why not? He says, I don't need that anymore. And so, but my grand— my dad did. His grandfather did need that. Now, since then, that was obviously years ago. Since then, my father has raised his frequency and not required that now, but he did for a very, very long time. Time, he required that idea of the physicalness. But we can do that.

Yeah, you know, that's a really interesting concept, Serena, that I'd like to talk about, because there's confusion about what it's like in the afterlife. Some people say it's kind of Earth-like, and we can do the things that we do here. Other people say, well, we immediately become these balls of energy, and, you know, we merge into the one. So I kind of hear you saying it sounds like your father was in that, that that physical state for a while, as long as he wanted it or needed it, and then maybe evolve to something else.

Yes, exactly. And that's, that's how JT explains it to me, is that everybody is okay. You know, everybody can be where they're at. There's no rush, no rush to go through these transitions, no rush to, to get to that higher frequency. A lot of people like JT, very high energy master soul, he, he, you know, he did spend some time with my dad. I think it was more for me, honestly. I don't think he needed to be there. I think that he did that so I could warm up to the idea of these layers. And that's how he explains it to me, these different layers, and talks about that in the book, you know, these different layers of consciousness. And, and that, that one was a really interesting concept for me too, very interesting to, to try and figure that out, to try and figure out the, the different, you know, what does that mean, you know, different layers of consciousness for someone. But my dad, again, was a perfect example that he needed to be in that earth-like frequency, stayed there. He was what they call crossed over. There are those, of course, who choose to stay in our frequency. And you know that, and not kind of cross over into the higher frequencies. He had but was still wanting that house, was wanting the physical pleasures of the earth, you know, that he didn't have anymore. Whereas JT was like, yeah, I'm done with that. I just did that for you, Mom.

Yeah, well, you know, that's, that's, it brings up a concept that, you know, we hear about the astral plane, and I kind of think about the astral plane, and I know people say that's kind of a reflection of Earth, or Earth is a reflection of that, however you want to view it, right? And again, I don't think there's any judgment for people that say I do, right, physical stuff, right? I enjoy, I want to have a nice house or a car, maybe, maybe things. Yeah, we were, you know, we were in an earthly incarnation. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief, most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper, thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it, the community that showed up, people who are doing exactly what you're doing, listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become, a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

Exactly right. And that's exactly where my dad was. Again, he was very attached to physical when he was here and leaving so early, you know, '56, he had just retired. It was really, it was, and he had a very uncomfortable passing too. It was liver cancer. And it was, it was very uncomfortable. So I can totally understand why he would want to stay in that frequency. But again, he is now, you know, higher frequency with, you know, with JT, moving on up, you know, moving on up that— I don't really want to call it a ladder. But because there's no, you know, there's not really a hierarchy. But it is a— it's an intenseness of energy is what I look— is how I look at it.

I'm excited to announce I have a great new resource it's called GEMS: 4 Steps to Move from Grief to Joy. And what it is, it's 4 things that I've found that I do on a daily basis to help me to navigate my grief. And I'm offering it to you free of charge. It's a free download. Just go to my website, www.grieftogrowth.com/gems, G-E-M-S, and grab it there for free. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah, I I also kind of push back against the layers as if one is better than the other or higher than the other. I think they're different. Yeah. And again, I think it's what we want and we feel comfortable with.

Yes.

One concern, again, that parents have, especially when a child passes, is, you know, were they scared? Did they suffer? Were they alone? What impressions do you have of that from JT and from other children that have come to you?

First, they're never alone, ever, ever, ever. They are always accompanied by someone. For JT, it was actually this energy named Hope. And it was— I had no idea at the time that he was a twin. And I would say, I don't want to say a physical twin, I want to say an energetic twin. They were both in the womb but she never materialized. He did, but he knew he was coming in and not sticking around and needed kind of a little bit more assistance in, in acclimating. And so she stayed with him in the womb for a good amount of time and then, and then left. And he tells me that it was her that came to him the night that he was— the night before he was leaving to get me out of the room and to say it's okay. You know, we're gonna, we're gonna take care of this. You're going to, you know, this is what's happening. But you know how to do this. And I'm sure this was all on a, you know, a subconscious level. It was so interesting, though, that week prior, prior to him getting sick, he got sick on a Monday and then passed on Friday. Prior to that, though, like maybe the 2 weeks prior, he suddenly grew up, you know, he became serious. For the 7-year-old, and he became serious. And I thought, this is odd. This is odd for him to be so serious. And I really do feel they were prepping him. As you know, as time was going on, and I even about a week before he left, I had a dream about a death, but I thought it was mine. I thought that I was the one that was going to leave. And I immediately said, oh, heck no, this is not going to happen. I've got these 3 little babies who need me. But I had no idea that they were prepping me in that dream for him leaving too. So they're never alone. Absolutely not. Do they, you know, are they afraid? Usually not. Because again, someone like JT, 7 years old, who is who knows he's not going to— he knows he's going to be transitioning. Because he's not alone. And because of the immense feelings of love and comfort and all of that from the universe supporting that energy, no matter how old they are, but especially the kids, then, you know, he was not scared. He didn't want to leave me, you know, that was the big thing that he said, I did not want to leave you.

But I had to Yeah, you made the comment earlier, you said that when you were calling out for him, he had decided that he wasn't coming back. So, you know, again, a good question I get from a lot of parents is, was it their decision to go? Because we hear some near-death experiencers say that I had a choice. And then parents will sometimes be upset that they will say, well, my daughter would have never chosen to leave. She wouldn't, she wouldn't leave me, which we don't know that because I think my daughter would have left me because she liked having a good time. I think if someone showed Jane a good time, she'd be like, okay, I'm going, I'm going to go?

Yes, well, it was very interesting. Just a few days after he left, I was sitting at my desk and I was pondering why, why did this happen? I knew that there was a reason. Because again, my daughter was also ill. She also had— she had a higher fever, but she was fine at that point. She recovered, she bounced back, she was fine. And so I thought, I know somebody knows. I know somebody knows why. And I looked down at my desk and there was a phone number list. And I had printed out friends and family because we had a whole bunch of people to send on the house. And I just turned the list over to somebody. There was no way I was going to call these people and tell them that my son had just died. I couldn't, I just couldn't do it. There were very few people that I could do that with. And And so there was a list printed out. And I said, somebody on this list knows. And I ran my finger down again, I had no idea why I would even think of this. I ran my finger down and I stopped on a number. And I said, she knows. And it was the mother of a friend of mine. The friend's in California. Mom's in California. I had only met her maybe once or twice. I think she met JT once. That was it. So it wasn't somebody I was super close to. And but I called the number Her husband answered and I said, this is Serena. He said, hold on. He knew exactly that I was calling for his wife. She gets on the phone and I said, I didn't even say hello. I just said, why? And she said, well, go get a paper and pen because JT visited me last night and he has a message for you. And that, I get chills when I think about it now, you know, that, that, that was huge. So I did, I got a piece of paper, got a pen. And the things that he said were that, again, that he, he didn't want to go, he didn't want to leave me. He tried twice before to go. He couldn't go those times. But this time he had to go. And at the time, I didn't understand it. There were a couple other messages about, you know, how he loves me and that I did everything perfectly, which I needed to hear. Because not getting him to the hospital was gnawing at me, that guilt. If I had gotten him to the hospital, would he still be here? And he tells me, of course, now, no, because it was done. Whether— and he wanted to leave from the house. He didn't want to leave in the hospital. Not to say that other kids— I don't certainly don't want to say that if you do take your child to the hospital, that that's a bad thing. No way. It's just, this is how he chose to go. Go. And I mean, it was a choice, that whole food poisoning, so I couldn't get him there. And I was exhausted and all of that. That was all a plan, because he did not want to go. But what he said, when he said, you know, this was the third time and I had to go, I asked him later, because at the time, of course, it was just a few days after he had left, didn't know I was a medium. And so finally, when I did get connection with him, I said, what did you mean by this? What did you mean by this was that, that you tried twice before, and this was your last time and you had to go. They said, well, I had 3 exits. I chose not to go on those other 2. But that was my final exit. And so at 7 years old, that was his final exit. For each of us, it's different, right? For our kids, the kids that leave early, that you can assume that it was an exit or a final exit, because nobody leaves unless it's their exit.

Yeah, that, you know, as you were saying that, it reminded me of Shana. She had a heart condition known as Wolff-Parkinson-White, which is a—

oh, wow—

not a really serious condition for most people. Most people live with it for a very long time. And she had actually a very mild form of it and had a couple of surgeries. And they said it was, it was fine, it was going to be okay. But when she first told us about— she talked about having an experience where she— everything turned gray and started swimming and And, you know, I wonder now if that was, you know, maybe one of her exit points that she decided not to go. That was a couple of years probably before when she did finally leave. Wow. But there's a lot of important things about what you said. You know, we think of exit points and we think they're all later in life, but for some of us they are earlier.

Right.

And a lot of parents have guilt around their child's passing, and it doesn't matter how they pass.

Right.

I've talked to enough parents. It could be cancer, it can be suicide, it could be a drug overdose, it could be an accident. Somehow as parents, we always find a way to take responsibility.

Of course. So it is our fault. I'm just kidding. It's not our fault. But that's certainly where we go with this.

Right. But that understanding that they have their own life plan— I mean, as parents, we feel— and we're not— we know we're not supposed to feel like we own our children, but we do. We feel like we're responsible for their—

their hours.

They belong to us.

Exactly.

And And we forget sometimes they have their own soul plans. And they, they have their own exit points. And they have their own things that they're here to learn and their own things that they're here to teach.

Yes. And one thing that I did learn in all of the people with whom I speak now who are on the other side, of course, I talked to a lot of kids, because that's where my foundation is, is to help parents, right? And those kids, all of them, not, not one single one said, oh, yeah, this could have been prevented. I did. Not one single one said that. They all said, no, it was my time. It was my time to go. Even the suicides, like you say, those who take their own life, there still is a plan. There's still a plan, whether or not they would have left then or a week from then, right? There's still the exit, because we also know of all of those, what we call failed suicides. Where they weren't successful, those are truly the times where they were not supposed to go and they were supposed to stay here very, very clearly. So those who do leave by that, by that method, it's their time too. And I know that's a really tough concept, especially for parents, and they're holding on to it, or they're blaming, you know, they might be blaming somebody else for it, like overdoses, things like that, blaming the blaming the dealers or blaming the friends who provided the drugs. And honestly, and I know that it's not a cop-out at all, but honestly, from all of those kids and JT and the higher souls that I talked to, there's— there was always that plan in place. Now, it doesn't mean that we all leave by, you know, that we say, oh, I'm gonna die by getting hit by a bus, you know, there are some leeway there, there's some options there. So even if they say, I'm going to leave by illness this time around. They can come into this incarnation and change it up if they want, you know, with their higher selves, with their higher, higher souls, and, and shift it a little bit, but the timeframes are going to be the same.

I thank you for saying that, because I, even though my child didn't pass by suicide, it's one of my passions that there's so much guilt, and there's so much shame around suicide. For, for the person who took their own life and for the family left behind. And I've even heard some mediums say, well, everything is planned in life, except suicides. Suicides are never planned. And just carving that exception because it's got such a stigma. And I know people, we don't want to encourage anyone to take their life. And I understand that, that the mentality, but I just want to help the parents that are saying, well, why is my kid the exception? Why did they have to be the one that wasn't planned? Or that means I could have prevented it. And I know there's nothing else you could have done.

And I think my sense of what they mean by suicides aren't planned is that maybe they were supposed to be taken out by, you know, what, a pharmaceutical overdose or something like that. But instead, they choose to leave a little bit earlier. And I don't mean a lot earlier, because again, again, if they're, if they're supposed to stay, they're going to be staying regardless. So maybe it's that, you know, maybe the suicide piece, it isn't planned, but it's certainly not a— it doesn't change the timeline. Yeah, they would have gone.

I don't think— I think we focus too much on the way someone died. You know, I really hesitate to ask you about how JT crossed over, because for me, it doesn't matter. But I know a lot of people listening matter. And people ask me about Shayna, what happened with her and all that, but it doesn't matter. You know, we, right, we all come in, we all go out, how we go. And I think on the other side, they're not going, oh, I'm a suicide. I'm a, I'm a drug overdose. I got hit by a bus. It's like, it's like, how did you wake up from a dream? Does it matter?

Right. And then what a great analogy. How did you wake up from a dream? Because that's really what's happening. This is just a small little blip in our, you know, in the energy of who we are. And, and it is like a dream, and we wake up and then, you know, we're in a different, a different frame of energy. So that was a great, you know, a great analogy that you had there. And yes, I understand, I understand totally that, you know, society really does put this the stigma on, you know, on parents whose kids leave by their own hand and for the kids who leave by their own hand. I have talked to so, so many, so many. They're all okay. They're all, all, they're all okay. They, yes, they had a little bit, a little bit more of a review, life review, going, well, we could have done that a little differently, maybe.

Yeah.

But that's, that's really the essence of it. You know, once we leave our energy form of the body, then, then we remember, we remember who we are, we go back into that energetic space. And we don't judge ourselves. And we don't judge each other.

Yeah, I think I want to— I just want to— I'm sorry to interrupt you. But it's something I want to say about that. Because there's something in between saying, oh, it's okay to just take your own life if you get tired of being here, you know, and judging people like you did a really bad thing. And I like what I heard someone say, and I know it upset some people, but they said there was a teenager, and I won't reveal any names or anything, but he had taken his own life. And when he got to the other side, he went to like a boot camp. So it was kind of like, okay, there's going to be, like you said, a little extra review here. We're gonna give you a little extra love. It's not like everything is just like, okay, this is really cool that you did that. But it's like, like, let's, let's think about maybe, maybe we don't want to do that next time.

You know, the other thing that I hear from those who did take their lives is that they, most of them, are now helping people here who are contemplating that. And they're trying to help shift them from that, not because of the way that that's the terrible way to go. I mean, it is for us. But it's because of the parents, because of the family, because of the added energy that is around it because of the way that somebody chooses to go. So, so many of those who do take their own lives are really trying to help others in to make different choices and to allow whatever it is that was in their contract to kind of flow through instead of leaving that in that manner. Again, not a judgment by any means. But certainly it's, it's really hard on those of us who are left here when that happens.

Yeah, yeah, I think it's okay to acknowledge that because it is. So I want to talk about your, your training that you do for people. You help train people in mediumship. So tell me about that.

Yes, and that was a shock to me, to be training people. It was about only a year after I began training, and I had a teaching team, Master Souls on the other side, who were helping me with my own abilities. And they came into one of my meditations and they said, okay, now it's time to start training others. And I said, what are you guys talking about? Because there I am nowhere near being able to train anybody. I'm still learning this myself. I don't have a grasp on this. And they say, oh, you misunderstand Serena, you will not be doing the training, we will. We're going to be doing the training, you are going to just be facilitating. And that's why I said I call myself a facilitator. They're doing the training. And so I began one-on-one training first, and just working with people, a mentorship program for anyone who had an inkling that they wanted to connect, and especially for those parents. I've had, you know, connecting class classes for parents to connect with their kids. Really anybody who wants to connect with the other side, because I am a firm believer that we can all do this. I always say I, again, I was a software engineer, if I can do this, anybody can do this. If I can learn to shut off those voices in my head that told me I was crazy for doing this, and really focus in on my soul and my spirit, then I know that other people can do that too. And so it began as a one-on-one mentorship program. And my team is just phenomenal. They would— it was an individualized program. It still is. It's an individualized program where it focuses on the person's, their clairs. What is, what is their dominant clair? And we work on it, we give exercises, we, we expand it, we really dive deep into it to hone that gift, to hone it. And which is amazing. And I think very unique unique. And then that kind of morphed into people wanting to become mediums, because in the beginning, it was just about connecting, just about getting you connected to your loved ones. But then there's, you know, people who want to be psychic mediums. And so I developed a certification program. Okay, I'm being corrected. I didn't develop it. My master teachers developed a psychic Mediumship Certification Program. And so then they go through an entire year of training with me and with the master teachers and with a curriculum. And it's really, again, a very solid, solid system. We've been doing that for maybe 6 or 7 years. And that now morphed into an Advanced Psychic Medium Mentorship certification program for those who want to take it to the next level. And then the other thing that was introduced to me, which really, really changed my world, was the Akashic Records. And so JT taught me how to access the Akashic Records and how to teach others to access it, which was in a much more simplified form. Because when I was reading books and things like that, it felt very complicated. I I'm a very simple person. I want the easiest way to do something. Simplest way, not easiest, simplest way. And so he instructed me on that. And so now we have Akashic Records facilitator programs and teacher programs too.

So tell me what the Akashic Records are to you, because everybody's a little bit different.

I know, right? Yeah. And I find that interesting, because it should be just a general thing, right? So for me, the Akashic Records are the records of all my our lives here and elsewhere. There's Akashic Records for me on other planets and things like that. And what we can do with that is we can look at patterns. What are the patterns that we brought into this incarnation? What did our soul say we wanted to work on again? What are the things that we continue to work on over and over and over again, where we aren't really getting it, or we're not really understanding it there's blocks in our ways or whatever. And so we look at that, we look at the Akashic Records, we go to the Record Keepers who are these beautiful, beautiful energies, and they're part of our council. And the council is that body of energy that helped us pick this incarnation. So they know what our contracts are, what our plan is, you know, what we really want to get done here. And so we go to that body of energy, and we say, Okay, why did this happen this way? Why is this happening this way? Why does this person give up their power to everybody and not have power of their own? Or why does this person constantly choose a person to be in their life that is detrimental to them? And usually, I mean, it is wrapped around childhood and things like that for sure. But a lot of times it's from patterns from other lifetimes as as well. And so we take a look at that. And we say, okay, what do we need to do here to, to finish this? What do we need to do to finish this lesson and to just move on? And the Record Keepers are just amazing. And the Council is amazing, because that's really what we're, what we're trying to do here is get, get that junk done. And so we can learn something new, so we can do something new. Our souls are always looking for the next thing to expand and to develop. So That's, that's my definition of the Akashic Records. And in working with it, for me, it helps me so much to understand what the origin of an issue is, because then I can go, oh, okay, I get it. I get now why I do this. And I say, okay, well, how do I heal this now? How do I heal this and do it?

I get the feeling it's kind of similar to like past lives, only it's actually more general and looking at patterns and recognizing patterns. Yeah.

Yes. Recognizing patterns and then figuring out what needs to happen, what needs to heal, so that you can move away from the pattern and really bring into your life the things that you, that you want to have, really start manifesting and, and being truer to who you are.

Yeah, I actually had something with someone about Akashic Records, and it's coming back to me now that you're mentioning it, because she was helping like release? Because I guess a lot of times we have old junk contracts left over and bonds, maybe even from other lives that— yes, we're not aware of. And so releasing some of that stuff. So you do that as well? Yes.

Yes, I do. Yes. Yeah, it's fascinating work. And it's fascinating even more to talk with these people after these sessions. After we release it, after we— and I have so much help in doing that. There's so many energies in the universe that want to assist does. I work with a lot of multidimensional energies, and they are the ones, they make it so easy for us to release these things and, and to move on. You have to want to, you have to want to release it, want to get it, get it out of this incarnation and the pattern done. But aside from that, it's, it really is a beautiful process. And hearing the feedback from those people that they, that it really it really made a difference for them. And they didn't have to— they didn't feel like they had to continue in the old pattern again.

I want to talk to you about, about guides. And I know I asked you for some questions before we get started. One of the questions was like, how do we contact our guides? But I work with a lot of people who feel like they're alone. It's, it's, it's what the universe has brought to me. I was working with someone earlier today even, who's like, you know, my mother's gone, my father's gone. My friends are gone. And I have a lot of those people that I work with. So when people say, and I tell people, you're never alone, there's always a guide. How do we reach our guides? How do we get confidence that I actually have them and they're not just imaginary figures?

Guides will show up in so many different ways, especially if we're not able to connect with them. In, you know, number sequences is huge. Bumper stickers. I remember mine communicating with me in words and bumper stickers and things like that. They'll bring people, people, they'll do like, I wouldn't want to say a takeover, but you know, you hear about those angels in bodies, right, where they come and they say something to you. And it's something that you really needed to hear that is so important to change your life. And so they will come as that as well. But to really connect with them. It was actually a lot simpler than I thought when I was starting this process. I thought, oh, there's no way I can shut my mind up and focus enough to hear, hear something that doesn't— that I can't see, right? So, so the first thing is meditation. And I know that it's really hard for some people to meditate. And so what I suggest is a guided meditation, and something what you— where your brain has something to do. And that's why I say guided, because as you're doing a guided meditation, your brain is occupied, your mind is occupied listening to the words, following along. And as that's occurring, then your spirit and your soul are able to fly and are able to really get into that, the energy of, of that higher frequency. So meditation always raises your frequency. And that's what it's about when you're connecting with anything in that other, in that other realm, is getting to higher frequency. So things like grounding and walking in the grass, taking nature walks, doing meditative things like some people love gardening, that is a meditation that raises your frequency, anything where you can shut your mind off and allow allow your spirit to, to take that trip. And so definitely meditation. And then I would also say, a willingness and a verbal asking for the help. We live on a planet where we have free will. And I didn't understand that. I mean, I understood the idea of free will. But I didn't understand that I needed to ask for help. Why aren't they just helping me? Why aren't they just here, right? You're supposed to be helping me. Why aren't you doing that? And so I learned that we need to ask, we need to set intention around it. And so I have my students say, I am a clear receiver, I receive clearly from my guides. Only high frequency is allowed to come talk with me right now or communicate with me. Because I feel the other thing that people have a fear around is what am I connecting to? Right? What, you know, what's out there? And so I always say just say, high frequency only, and that takes away all of the, all of the other choices. So asking for that.

You said something there I haven't heard before. You know, number sequences, bumper stickers, things that we would normally call signs, you know, right, right. That could, that could be your guides is what I heard.

Yes, yes, absolutely. If they need to get us a message and we're not paying attention, They will do whatever they need to do to get us that message. Dreams. I used to have crazy dreams. And in a particular point in my life where I really needed to make a change, and I was being very stubborn about it, I didn't realize I needed to make that change. I would have these dreams of, of crazy stuff where I— showing me I needed to change. And I finally got it. But they'll use that, they'll use whatever they can to help us in, in moving, in moving into different energy?

Well, because I think a lot of times we think about guides, it's like, okay, I expect them to like walk up to me, introduce themselves, you know, because, and I hear a lot of people, and sometimes we take other people's experience and set expectations. Sure. My guide is Red Wolf. He's an American Indian. He's 6 feet tall. He has a feather in his hair. I mean, I'm just, I'm not saying people use this. Oh, okay.

That's right. Yes. Yes.

Well, I don't know my guide.

I don't have I don't have that.

And I've, I've had different experiences. You know, the first guide that I heard about was through a medium. She told me about my guide, and she gave me her name, and she described her. The second one, I believe, is my guide. I had a dream, and it was years ago, but I can still remember it like it was yesterday. And I saw this guy was standing in my kitchen. And I'm like, there was something about him that really struck me. And so I'm thinking, I think that was maybe one of my guides. And then the third one was like in meditation. So I think my experience has been— and this has been over the course of years, didn't all happen in one day. This is a course over like 7 years. I feel like I have an idea of who 3 of my guides are.

Right. And they do change. They do come in and out. We have a main guide that really sticks with us. And mine is JT now. And others, you know, for others, it could is usually not a relative that has passed. JT is a little bit of the exception. I would say kids are the exception to kids on the other side. Usually, you know, they can come and they can be guides for us because of that connection, because they are, they're very high frequency souls. They wouldn't have come and left as a child if they weren't a high frequency soul. So they're in a position to help guide this. But others, you know, other times, again, it kind of depends on what you need. What, you know, what the focus is for your life. We have, you know, purpose guides, we've got joy guides, I've got parking guides, I love my parking guides. And I love that they are there. I asked for help, you know, I asked, I say, okay, whoever can help me, whoever can help me, please come help me right now. And I don't need to know their name. I used to have to know their name, you know, in the beginning, you're like, okay, who is this? Give me your name. I need to know who you are, you know, where you're from.

Right, right.

And I gave that up because there were just so many coming in and out.

I think that's, from what I've understood, that's, that's an expectation that we'd be better served to let go of. And I've heard a lot of times the guides will be like, okay, well, if you want to have a name, you can call me, you know, X. We as humans are hung up on names.

Yes.

And I'm kind of like, I'm not looking for that, you know, anymore either. And speaking of dreams, I had a really strange dream last night. It was, it was one of those dreams, you know, they seem to go on forever. And then you woke up and you're still in it.

Oh my gosh.

And this, this being just kept changing form. And I'm like, did you drug me? Because you keep changing. And I woke up this morning, I literally, asked the being, I said, did you drug me? And so I think that might have been one of my guides trying to tell me something.

Right? Well, and it feels like, you know, that they're— that it's a change for you, that, you know, that constantly changing thing is about your energy. And it's about where you are and what you're— where you're going, you know, and wanting, wanting you to see more sides of of it. But boy, that sounds like a, like a vivid one. That's for sure.

Yeah. So I put that out there for people. Because when people ask me about signs and synchronicities and all this stuff, a lot of times people like— you're, you're an engineer, I'm an engineer— we're like, okay, how is this supposed to work? Let me write this down. And I want this to come in this order in this way. And the longer I've been doing this, this work, and, you know, 7, 8 years since Shayna passed and 4 years doing this form currently, I'm realizing, be open to anything, be open to whether it's right, whether it's, whether it's a synchronicity, you know, whatever it is, be open to all of it, because it's all, it's all guided.

Right. And I do feel you have a really, really good point there. I have so many people come into my office who are expecting connection to be a certain way for them. I'm not getting any signs from my kid or something along those lines. And then I'll talk to the kid. And they'll say, I've been giving them signs, I've been talking to them. And so, you know, that's the biggest one is that the hearing, they hear their child's voice in their head and they blow it off. And they don't think that it's them. They hear, Mom, Mom, they think they're going crazy. That's their kid. That's the kid saying, hey, you can hear me, I'm right here. But for them, they expect, like you said, for them to walk up like in Ghost Whisperer, you know, this person that you can't tell whether they're an energy or a person. And it, for me, it doesn't work like that. For me, it's very different. There are mediums out there who that is, it is how they see it. But I can see the person, it just is, again, an energy. I can see the energy of them, I can see what they look like. But yes, yeah, for parents, the biggest thing is letting go of the ideas or the preconceived information that they might have heard from somebody else. Oh, in my reading, I, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it just doesn't happen that way for everybody. And so yes, to be open, to be open to how your child or how your loved one is communicating with you is a huge, huge factor in this. We all get signs. There's not one time where I can think of, and I've been doing this for almost 16 years, that somebody on the other side said, oh no, I didn't give them any signs. I just moved on. That's their, their job is to make sure we're okay. Their job is to help us through the grief, and to help us find the joy again, and to help us maneuver through or to find purpose like me. My job was to find purpose. JT's job was to help me find that. But for other people, it could be that they just, they need to get back into life. They need to really experience life instead of allowing the loss to consume them. Because I'll tell you, our loved ones don't want us consumed by that grief. Now, we do have to walk through the grief. As you know, there's no way around it. You can't, you can't wish it away or drug it away or anything like that. You have to do the process. But I remember early on when I started connecting with parents who'd lost children, and they said, oh, it's, it's forever. You're, you know, you're forever in this, in this terrible, terrible place, and you're forever going to feel this way. And I said, I don't think so. I don't think that's the way I need to do it. I think I can do it a different way. And I don't think that JT he wants me to be there and do it that way. So I was very deliberate with my process, very deliberate with my grief, and, and did a lot of the work. I mean, and it's work, as you know, it's work. But it is required. It's required. And again, I found who I was, or I found JT just 4 months after he left, and then found who I was 6 months after, so I was still in the, in the throes of grief when I was trying to connect with him and, and work with him. And that did— I don't want to say it delayed it, but I really had to do my grief process in order to be able to get rid of the block of grief.

And I just want to interject there, for everybody, it's a different timeline. For me, I told someone the other day that I started the blog, like a week after Shayna passed, and they're like, oh, you had clarity a week after Shayna passed? Like, no, no, it was about 4 years after Shayna passed before I decided I was going to do this work as a, as like a full-time thing. So I, you know, people, I love what you said, there's like grief is a process, grief is work, we have to walk through it. You can't look at someone like myself or like you, right, many years out and go, okay, I'm supposed to be there. And it's been 3 months, you know, right? Like, no, it's— it takes— it takes time to get there. It takes time for flower to grow. You know, flowers don't go from a seed to a flower overnight. It takes— it takes time to get there.

Absolutely.

We're actually running a little bit short on time. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'd like for you to tell people what services you offer, because I know you teach mediumship. Do you still give medium reading? Yes, tell me about all the different services you offer.

Yes, I still offer readings, you know, mediumship, especially because I want people to know their loved ones are okay. And psychic readings, Akashic Record readings, all of that. I also do pet mediumship and pet psychic, pet Akashic Records. Our pets have Akashic Records too. And so definitely offer all, you know, one-on-one services, usually via Zoom because, you know, we, we are in a Zoom world now, which is really nice. And then, and then of course, you know, the, the training that I have is all on my training website as well, which is dragonflypsychiccenter.com. And to get to the readings, if you want a session with me, it's serenabaptista.com or bridgetohealing.com. Both will take you to that. And all of the information is there. Again, I offer a a very wide variety of different things for, for people, because I find that not everybody might want this aspect of it or that aspect of it. So we can tailor it and we can do more than just one thing during a session. The guides and your loved ones are so excited when, when we are able to talk to them. And that really is, you know, is a huge, huge piece of this is they want that connection. Loved ones want the connection, they want to continue the relationship. Yeah, it looks different, as you know, very different than when they were here. And their guides too. We are in a very, very interesting time on our planet. And many people are finding themselves a little bit lost. And so connecting with the guides, connecting with who you are and your purpose is, is a huge, huge aspect of what I do as well.

Absolutely. And again, remind people of the name of your book.

Oh, the book is My View from Heaven, which was written by JT. And there is another book coming out at the end of August that I have collaborated with 3 others. 3 of us have lost children, one lost her husband. And that one is called Finding Love and Purpose. And so that again, kind of takes the message that we were talking about, and talks about our 4 stories.

Sounds great. Well, all the links will be in the show notes. Sarina, thanks so much for your time this afternoon.

Brian, thank you so much for talking with me today. It has just been such a pleasure. I always look forward to, to talking with you.

Absolutely. Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you so much.

You too. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.