When Grief Takes Everything: Vanessa May on Surviving Compounded Loss | EP 474

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hi everyone, I'm Brian D Smith, your host. I want to welcome you to Grief 2 Growth. And whether this is your first time joining us, or you've been walking this path with me for a while, I am truly grateful you're here. This podcast exists to help you navigate life's toughest challenges and explore the big questions like who we are, why are we here, where do we come from, and where are we going. Today, I'm honored to welcome back Vanessa May to the show. You may remember Vanessa from episode 255 a couple years ago. We're recording this in late 2025. And in that first episode, she shared her— the heartbreaking story of losing her beloved son, Harry. Well, since then, she's continued on her journey as a holistic grief coach, a certified grief educator, a nutritional therapist, a well-being coach, and a spiritual life coach, helping others move through unimaginable loss with honesty, depth, and compassion. She's also the author of 3 impactful books, including her most recent release, When Grief Takes Everything: A Survival Guide to Devastating Loss. This powerful book begins where her last book, Love Untethered, left off, navigating life not only after the loss of her son, but also the shocking successive deaths of her husband and her father during the COVID pandemic. So when we recorded the first episode, we didn't talk about the loss of her father and her husband. It was really still, frankly, very fresh to her. And we were focusing on her first book. So we'll talk about that some today as well. In this episode, Vanessa opens up about how profound and layered grief affects us emotionally, physically, and spiritually. We'll explore the impact of trauma on the body, including her own cancer diagnosis, which came 18 months after losing Harry, and how grief can manifest in illness. She also shares how she's found healing through writing. Her spiritual beliefs, and the continuing bonds she maintains with Harry and Anthony, who she feels around her daily. We'll discuss how grief and soul growth are intertwined, why she believes we're an earth school for powerful lessons, and how the intersection of grief and spirituality can offer hope even in our darkest hours. She also introduces us to 6 other women featured in her new book, each of whom has survived devastating loss and emerged with insight and strength. Vanessa's lived experience and her refusal to offer toxic positivity or surface, surface-level comfort makes her voice one that so many people deeply resonate with. So if you've ever wanted to understand how someone survives the worst and continues to grow through it, this conversation is for you. And as always, I invite you to join the conversation over at grieftogrowth.substack.com, where I've written an article to accompany this episode, where you can share your thoughts, leave comments, and connect with me and other listeners who are walking the same road. So with that, let's get into this conversation with Vanessa May. Hi, Vanessa. Welcome back.

Hi, Brian. It's lovely to see you again.

Yeah, it's great to see you too. Thanks. Thanks for being here. As I mentioned, we spoke a couple of years ago. It was after we talked about the passing of your son. So for people who didn't— haven't heard that episode yet, start off by telling— tell us about Harry.

So Harry, um, was 24 when he died. Um, he was an amazing young man, as they all are, um, who die early. They just seem to be somebody who is quite special, each, each and every one of them. That seems to be my experience because working as a holistic grief coach now, I work with a lot of bereaved parents and all their children have something special about them. And Harry was definitely one of those, and he left an impact on everyone he left behind. And yeah, I mean, I always say he was my first child and he changed my life when he came into my world, and he changed it again when he left. And I was, like all bereaved parents, completely devastated by his loss. And just to bring in my husband, he was also devastated, but was amazing in supporting me. He sort of, we were married for 30 years, and he really, you know, 'cause a long marriage, you have your ups and downs. And in those last 2 years of his life after Harry passed away, he really grew, I would say. And he was an incredible partner to me in a way that Harry's loss changed him and he stepped up. For me, and that's something I really, really treasure. But just going back, yes, to Harry. So after we lost him, I really struggled with making sense of why, though I very quickly knew that he was still around me and I just had to find him. And, uh, and so I, I did, like lots of us, start exploring the spiritual aspect of the afterlife. I found Helping Parents Heal, your podcast, um, and one of the things that helped me process my, my grief was writing. And that was, that took the form of my first book, Love Untethered: How to Live When Your Child Dies. And it was the best therapy for me. And we spoke last time in our last, um, chat about therapists and how the spiritual aspect is often, um, missing with grief counseling, and I definitely found that. So writing for me really helped enormously. Um, then we went into the pandemic, and that was very weird for people who had recently lost someone, or particularly a child, because already you feel quite isolated, and then the world around you panicking, and you're kind of going, "Yeah, we've been through the worst. This doesn't really, you know, make much difference to us." Of course it did in many ways. And I was much more concerned about, you know, my elderly mom and her not getting ill. Also in that time, I got a cancer diagnosis, which maybe we'll come back to if we talk about the physical aspects of grief, which I'm quite, you know, hot on. But yeah, so my husband was amazing and he was incredibly supportive and he was my rock. And we, you know, we lent on each other and we helped each other through. And then he and I and my daughter all went down with COVID and we all had different versions of it. It felt like my daughter, being younger, wasn't so affected. I had it pretty badly, but my husband really, really took it badly to the point where, um, he had to go to hospital, and then he was released. He came home and he got ill again, and he had to go back in. And of course, it was a time when I was ill anyway, so they wouldn't let anyone who had COVID into a hospital. But anyway, you just couldn't go on a COVID ward. So he was sort of— it was the most horrible feeling. I was— I felt so ill. At one point, I thought I might be going into— I thought I might die from this. Little did I know, 'cause I thought my husband was in there and he'd get well. So we had to communicate over WhatsApp. That was our, that was the only way we could communicate. And he was in there for 2 and a half weeks. I never ever thought that he wouldn't get better. And then, and I was constantly trying to talk to the doctors, trying to, it was like walking through treacle, trying to just get myself well, to communicate with the hospital, not being able to, see him. And, um, and then we got the call that he wasn't gonna make it. Mm-hmm. And they said, you can, you can come in and, and say goodbye. Because at that stage of the pandemic, they were letting relatives say goodbye. Meanwhile, whilst it, it was literally as we got ill, the day before we got ill, my dad had died. Oh, wow. I couldn't go to his funeral because I had COVID. I write about all this in When Grief Takes Everything, but it is quite— it felt so unreal.

Mm, I'm sure.

And, you know, we think, particularly if we've had a terrible, terrible loss of a child, we think, well, nothing bad— you know, lightning— people would say lightning doesn't strike twice.

Right.

And I'm here to say, sadly for some of us, it does. And, but I was very much in survival mode because I was ill myself. So I was physically on the back foot. Mm-hmm. I was still grieving Harry. I still had a diagnosis of PTSD. So I had all that to contend with. My dad's just died. And then I called and we had to wear all this PPE equipment, you know, and we had to wear gowns, masks, hairnets, gloves. All that was going on. I mean, I don't know what it was like in the States, but that's what we were doing over here. Yeah. And I had to go in and say goodbye with my daughter, and it was absolutely unbearable and unbelievable. But what I will say is that I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to Harry. So I was very conscious that I could now say goodbye and I could say, I could thank him for being there for me and how amazing he was in looking after me. And so it did feel like a privilege to hand him over to Harry, and that's what I knew was gonna happen.

Mm-hmm.

And I felt very jealous 'cause he was gonna be reunited with Harry.

Yeah.

And, and I was gonna be left behind. Um, so we got to say everything we wanted to say. I, I got to say, you know, I, yeah, I mean, it's a long time to be married, and I didn't have much adult life before I met him, so it felt like it, it was enormous. And again, it was, I was blindsided really in a different way this time.

So yeah, that, that's, uh, Yeah, that, that, you know, and your, your book is titled appropriately When Grief Takes Everything, because I, I would imagine that's how you felt. Yeah, just, and you said, you know, people say, well, lightning can't strike twice. And, uh, I, you know, my daughter's passed away, so I know that. But then, you know, you think, like, well, I've had my bad thing, right? I should be, I should be good for a while. I shouldn't have to go through anything else right now.

Exactly. And I think when I got cancer, I was just like, well, that's not fair.

Right, right.

But that felt like nothing compared to losing Harry, and it also paled compared to losing my husband. And we were so unprepared. And the difference between losing a child and losing your husband is that when your partner dies, and if they're not really prepared, you don't— you know, we had— I mean, he just left everything to me. So that— but aside from that, the practicalities of what you have to do. And because of those 2 years where he'd sort of taken over everything while I fell apart, he— so I didn't even know who we paid, uh, you know, our bills to, who the car insurance was with, when this was due, when that was due. The practicalities, um, were enormous. And I was recovering from COVID Mm-hmm. It was absolutely huge. So the whole— if any, you know, widows and widowers are listening and it's not— you're not prepared and you don't think it's coming, there's an awful lot of what they call sad min, where it's just admin. You know, you've gotta do their tax returns, you've gotta— It was more complex in that aspect than it was for Harry. But whatever, you know, had to be sorted for Harry, Antony had done for Diana. For both of us. So now it was just down to me. So it was, it was a lot. But I do feel, um, you know, he probably died of a broken heart. That's what I, I think. Not all bereaved parents obviously do. We're still here. But I think a lot of bereaved parents, the body keeps the score. And I think, yeah. And they say the lungs are, in Chinese medicine, are the organ of grief. And of course COVID affects the lungs.

Right.

So, you know, because of my, the way I look at health holistically, that's how I sort of, I thought, well, my cancer was the trauma that had at a cellular level done some damage in my body and with my husband. Yeah.

That makes absolute sense. And I, there is a thing Broken Heart Syndrome, and it doesn't necessarily just affect a heart. I love what you said about the trauma goes into the body. I was telling you, I think before we started recording, I have a good friend who just passed away suddenly in April, and, uh, of a heart attack. And, you know, I was with him, his wife, at the hospital. I was driving her home and she said, my chest hurts. And I was like, well, yeah, you know, of course, because you're going through this traumatic thing. And turns out she had a heart attack the same day that her husband did. Um, now she survived it and she's fine and recovered now. But, you know, that trauma can affect us in different ways. And I've talked to other parents who have lost children, and then one or the other parent will die, you know, not too long afterwards from, you know, something like, you know, like you said, that the grief can affect our lungs even.

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right. And in the book, I mean, I've got a book here, I dunno if I can quickly find it, but I write an awful lot about, 'cause I did lots of, I'm not gonna be able to find it, but lots of research into, you know, the statistics of how, and particularly widows actually, it's something, I'm not remembering it correctly probably, but it's something like 55% increase in having a heart attack after you've lost your partner. Obviously bereaved parents, as well, and broken heart syndrome being, you know, a real thing. So it is extraordinary, and I think it's extraordinary because most people don't really realize how grief affects us and how trauma— because it's also the trauma and the shock as well. But because you and I have this spiritual belief, we also probably believe that you don't go until it's your time anyway. So we sort of have to factor that in. Yes, grief does things to your body, but I'm still standing and my husband isn't. So there is some kind of soul path that we're perhaps not fully, you know, knowing at this stage as to, I've still got things to do and that's why I've stayed. I don't know. But even though on a practical level and a scientific level, we can look at what trauma and grief does to the body and there's science, and statistics about it. I also look at it from the spiritual perspective, which is like, well, you know, you don't go unless it's your time.

I don't think, but I truly believe that also. And I also believe all these emotions, these feelings that enter the body, that I love this word I heard the other day. Some, I can't remember, I can't remember who to give credit to, but they said we have to metabolize our emotions. And I really like that image of those emotions, the pain, the anger, the fear, the guilt, all those things that come, we have to turn, we have to face them, and we, and we can, we can metabolize them, we can, we can dissolve them, we can transform them. So we can let them stay in the body and, and they can take us down, or we can do what, what you have done and take that and, and transform it. And now you're out, you know, helping others. And as you said, you're still standing. And I, I'm, I'm also a true believer that we We go when it's our time. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I know I've talked to a lot of parents when a child passes, I wanted to go with my daughter. I was like, I'm ready to go. So, you know, so I've heard so many parents say that.

Definitely. And honestly, I really felt jealous that my husband was going to be with my son.

Sure.

I have a daughter, so, you know, I had a reason to stay, but Sometimes the logic of that doesn't come into it. You just have a sort of need to go with them.

Yeah. Yeah.

But we're not meant to, for whatever reason. But I did feel very real jealousy that he was going and I wasn't. And he was out of pain.

Yeah.

Out of suffering because I thought, you've only grieved for 2 years. Yeah, I'm now grieving for both of you.

Yeah.

And my dad, you know, my dad was elderly, which is why it's not quite the same.

Right.

You know, it's still a loss upon a loss upon a loss. And very close together.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So in terms of that loss upon a loss upon a loss, because the thing about grief is, you know, it is, it is exhausting. We have to really, we have to work to process through it. I can only imagine that you're, you're still grieving your son at this point. I mean, you're still, that's, that's still early grief. I call it.

Oh yeah.

At 2 years, that's still early. How did you handle, you know, now Anthony is going and now you're, you're dealing with both of these things at the same time. Stay with us.

We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there.

I don't know, you can read the book, you'll find out. I mean, I literally, because I sometimes, as I was editing it, I looked, I was thinking, I can't believe I, I can't believe I've survived this. As I say, there was a lot of practical things that all fell on me to do. So you get caught up when you lose a partner in the practicalities of what you have to do. So that slightly delays your grief.

Right.

But of course, it's— and financially, you know, that I had to go back to work. I was now a widow. Mm-hmm. So after Harry died, you know, I stopped working for 10 months, I think. Whereas I was like, I have no choice. I have to go back to work. So that was enormous as well. I literally would drag myself out of bed and have to just pretend and focus on something else. And in one way it was very good for me, but it was exhausting. I don't know how I survived. I think what happens when you have multiple losses is that your grieving gets extended. Mm-hmm. And you, You don't, at first I didn't know who I was grieving. It all got muddled up. And I was used to feeling Harry. And then I got really worried about, I don't know, I can't feel Anthony around me. And I went to a medium and she said, don't worry, when you feel Harry, you are feeling Anthony because they're together. And they're so close to you. And that was an enormous comfort because I was also trying to navigate that side of things and make sense of it and why I'd lost them both. Yeah, but it was, it still is, you know, it's still incredibly difficult to navigate this, I find. And the ways I do it, one, because I have a purpose and that's to help others. And just actually, I wanna say, going back to what we were saying about the physical manifestations of grief, currently I've got a bereaved father and a bereaved mother with cancer. So, you know, it's quite, and lots of them have all kinds of physical ailments that just have, you know, only happened since. Since they've lost someone. But, but yes, so I've got this mind-body-spirit approach that I use with clients, and I like to think that I'm helping them and giving them what, you know, we didn't get from grief counselors early on who couldn't possibly understand what we were going through. So, yeah, I, I'm— that's giving me a purpose. And also just my spiritual belief and believing they're around me and that I'll be with them again. And that it's not my time yet, unfortunately.

Yeah, yeah, I understand what you're saying. So, you know, we've talked about like, planning, soul planning, soul purpose, we talked about Harry, we talked about it before in our earlier conversation that there's something about kids that go early. That they just seem to be— they live life differently and, and they're perceived in the world differently. So you're, you're— when Harry went, I guess you, you started saying, okay, well, this is, this is his time, and this— he was early. When Anthony then transitioned, you— I would imagine you saying to your spirit guides, your higher self, whatever, like, what's the deal with this plan?

Yeah. So I, the sort of conclusion I've come to is that, and again, I write about it in the book. Mm-hmm. I think this is, this part of my journey is just for me to do it on my own.

Mm-hmm.

So my daughter now doesn't live at home. So I have gone from quite quickly the family home being really busy and, you know, lots of life and activity. I'm still in the family home and it's just me. I'm, you know, I might move eventually, but, and so it feels that what's, so I try and look at it as what's the lesson in this? This is about me just figuring this out, this part of the, you know, 'cause when you're a parent, you know what it's like, you're looking after others, you're feeding them, you're, multitasking, you're fixing, you're doing what parents do. And I'd been with my husband for 30 years, so that was kind of like, suddenly I'm on my own. It's very difficult. It was— Yeah, it's a lot. It's still a lot. I'm used to it now. Yeah. 'Cause it's just coming up to 4 years since Anthony died and 6 since Harry died. But I may be used to it, but I don't like it. But I'm trying to accept it 'Cause as we know, acceptance is an important part of, because if we can't change something, you know, we sort of have to surrender to it. So I talk about surrender in the book as well. Just surrendering to the fact that this has happened.

Yeah.

You know, I've just got to navigate my way through. And of course I try and think, why has this happened to me? Was I a mass murderer in a past life? And, you know, and of course, joking aside, I've taken on a lot in this lifetime. And, you know, as I think we said this last time, you kind of think, well, your soul's over on the other side, you're having a conversation with your soul family and you're going, okay, let's go in and do this. And you get, this will speed up our soul growth. And you're not in your human mind, you're in your soul. Essence. And so you think you can do it all. And I seriously bit off more than I could chew. I don't know what I was thinking. I mean, I really don't know what I was thinking, except you're not thinking as a human. And who knows? I mean, we know that it'll make sense eventually. We'll go to the other side and we'll understand and we'll go, okay, now I get it. But it's a lot. And As you said, I, I don't— and I, I do think it's important to, you know, meet people where they are, and particularly people in early grief, they don't want to be taught. They want you to say, this is terrible, it really is terrible, um, and then give them ways and help them find a purpose and help them find a spiritual connection if that's what's, you know, for them. Um, but I I do think what's happened to me is terrible and I am still very traumatized and I have had loads of EMDR and I still can very quickly go into fight or flight. It's not straightforward. So I don't want to sort of sit here and give everyone the impression that, you know, because yeah, it's, it's tough. It's really tough.

Yes, absolutely. I appreciate you sharing that. You know, you used the word there, surrender. Which for a lot of people is a dirty word, especially here in America, because we're like, we're taught to be tough and to fight and to push through everything. But surrendering, I love what you— it's accepting what— I tell people, it doesn't mean giving up. It's accepting what reality is. And that can be a very difficult thing when you lose someone so close to you. It's still— it can be, like you said, it can be surreal sometimes. It's been 10 years since my daughter passed away. And every once in a while I'll still think that this really happened. You know, this is something that really happened in our lives. So it isn't a straightforward path. It is that back and forth.

Yeah, definitely. And when you're like you are as well, when we're working with people in early grief, we hear all the fighting against what happened. This wasn't meant to happen. People say, this wasn't meant to happen to me. This wasn't meant to happen to my family. And, you know, when you're down the line. Yeah, we all thought that. And it's helping them to get to a point where they can go, well, it has.

Yes. And that's, that's a really good point. I really want to kind of hone in on because the idea of soul planning or— and we only, you know, we, we, we go when it's our time. Some people might say, well, I don't, I don't believe in that stuff, you know, and are so prove it to me, and I can't prove it to you. But what we can do, what we will do, is we, we have to find meaning or make meaning. And that's what you've done. You said, okay, this has happened, this is where I am, this is what I'm going to do. You're making meaning out of this, whether you believe in soul planning or not. And I do, but for people that don't, you still have to find a way to move forward.

Yeah, you do. But that's where I think the continuing bonds theory is good, isn't it? And like, when I working with clients who don't have a spiritual belief, I'll say, you can still continue your bond. You're still their mother. That's still your daughter. So that you can find other ways to help them find, keep the connection.

Sure.

You know, the death ends a life, not a relationship. It doesn't have to be spiritual. But I think the people who do develop a spiritual connection or find it or explore it tend to do slightly better, maybe. Be. But, you know, I— what I have learned, and since writing Love Untethered, is that I now realize there are so many things that come along to complicate your grief. The layers— I mean, we could call them secondary losses, but in my case, additional actual losses. But all kinds of things come into play, like illness, like mental health, um, all kinds of things. Family dynamics change, you know. Family don't— the family changes. Um, in my, in my case, you know, my daughter and I lost half our family, right? And it's so— it's— there's huge things that come along. It's not just, oh, I lost my son, right?

Yeah. And, and you talked about it earlier, and it's really important for people to understand, every loss, every loss is different. Literally, literally every loss. And but losing— I remember one time I was talking to a woman, this Several years ago, I was being interviewed for a podcast, and I slipped up and I said losing a child is the worst thing that could ever happen. Because, you know, we really shouldn't compare losses. But I said that. And she had lost a son, and she just lost her spouse. And she goes, what you just said isn't true. Because there— when you lose a spouse, there's all these other complications that we don't have any idea about till we go through it. You know, all the little things like where are the bills, You know, here it's like, you know, does the house automatically go to the other spouse? Your accounts, where do they go? It can get really complicated. So you're trying to deal with this shocking loss anyway. And then people are asking, putting papers in front of you, asking you to make decisions and sign this and do that.

Yeah, it's— yeah, I think that's what I was trying to say earlier, is that it's a different experience. Losing your child. And I kind of, you know, having had birth, and again, you know, everyone is gonna feel very differently. I feel they're both terrible.

Yeah.

But there's nothing like having your child, you know, that's a primal bond.

Yeah.

That's, but it doesn't really matter which, they're both terrible. And I'll tell you the biggest issue is they're terrible together. You know, I haven't got one or the other.

Right.

We've got both. This woman had both. That's the complicating issue. It's like, it's so compounded. It's double the loss, double the trauma, right? You know, it just is. Well, that's my experience anyway. But, um, I find what's quite interesting as well is that people assume that because I've lost a child, being a widow is probably just a little bit more painful. Then it's— and I'm going, yeah, but because I've lost my son, it's so much worse. It feels so much harder. Right. But other people always have a sort of opinion, whether it's voiced or not. You sort of sense that they think the loss of a child just must be so much worse, you know? And I think, yeah, but it's natural we compare losses and—

It is. I don't know why we do it, but it is. I like it. And I try to avoid it because, you know, as I said, everyone's different. And then, and they also, they're compounding. So it's not like when you have one, the other one goes away. When you've lost your son, you know, and you've lost your husband, now you're dealing with both of those things, and it changes everything about your life. You know, you said now you're living in, in the house by yourself. It changes the holidays, it changes, you know, the vacations, you know.

Absolutely. I mean, that's such a good point. One of the things that we did a lot after Harry passed away was we went away a lot because it gave some respite. Well, I've tried to do that. It's not the same. So I've lost that respite. Um, it's very lonely being a widow. And I, and I have a theory, again coming personally and also from my work, is that, um, although it's terrible to be a young widow, and they don't see it this way, but they do tend to be more likely to meet someone else and start again. Although they'll never— I've got one of the women I write about in book, she loses her partner, and I'm not taking away the devastation of that at all. And then if you're elderly, which of course is the most common thing, you lose a spouse, well, you haven't really got long to go. Um, and sometimes elderly people are just living in the now, trying to kind of cope with day-to-day stuff. Um, but I think being a widow in the middle years is really tough because I personally— what, because I've got a lot of baggage, but I really don't want to start again. But I have— I may have I may have some years on my own. So I think that's a really tough time to be widowed in, you know, in your 50s, 60s. You know, I think it's a really tough time. So again, being a widow isn't the same at every age. It's, yeah, everything is— all grief, as we know, is unique to us and our particular situation, circumstances, etc.

Yeah, and that's, that's, that's an excellent point, you know, because again, you know, whether we choose to partner or not, if we, if we're widowed or widower, then that means we have chosen to partner. And, um, if I remember, my grandmother was pretty elderly, seemed like to me anyway. Now I think not anymore because I'm almost her age. But when my grandfather passed, you know, at that age you're just kind of like, well, I'm not interested in another romantic relationship because I've only got a couple more, you know, a few more years. But if you're in those middle years now, you're like, you thought, I've never— you've never thought about being with anyone else, right? And now you've got to make that decision. And then people outside are saying, well, oh, you can find somebody else. And you're— and I know like a lot of people are like, I can't even think about that right now.

No, no. And I think that's even more so for me because I've also lost my child. And it's just too— no, I'm— And that's why I go back to, I think my path is about finding my— but it's, you know, being on my own and making my peace with that. But it is difficult and it is lonely. Um, and loneliness again is something that perhaps is one of my lessons. I have, you know, I don't remember being on my own in my whole life. You know, you know what it's like, you're in a family, then you're with, you know, sharing a flat apartment with someone, then you meet your partner and you go, you You're not on your own. I have not really been on my own in my life, so this is all very new and very sudden, and I was thrown into it having, you know, as a bereaved mother and then as a widow. It's like, whoa, this is a lot. So this is— that's what I always tell my clients, you know, these— a lot of stuff takes time to work through, and, you know, I don't I, I've really gone off the word resilience. Hmm. Because I feel it can be a bit of a stick to beat someone with if you don't feel— I certainly, and again, I write about this in When Grief Takes Everything, because I, I don't feel very resilient. I'm just doing my best. Whereas I think after Harry died, I, I was quite believing in the word resilience and thinking it was important. Now I'm like, you know what?

Yeah, I, I thank you for saying that because, you know, people will say that to you and they think it's a compliment. You know, you're doing great, you're so resilient, you're so strong. And I know when I would hear that, it just, it would like make me feel almost deflated, or because it's like, I feel strong, you know. It's like, I'm just doing what I have to do, and I frankly don't even want to do this, okay, but I, I'm just doing what I have to do. And so I want people to understand that, that when, when you see someone out and, um, and they're, and they're functioning, they're in society, they're at a party or whatever, and you're like, oh, you seem to be doing so great, you know, you're not seeing what, what it's like when they go home at night and lay their head on the pillow by themselves again.

Yeah, I often think that, you know, when you see interviews on television and they're interviewing a bereaved parent who's found some purpose or set up a foundation or something, and the interview goes, "Well, you are, you know, a beacon of hope. You're, you know, demonstrating that you can get over this," or they'll say something, and it's so jarring, and you think, yeah, she's just come on television and she's, put on her makeup and her hair, and she's just sitting there and she's speaking about her foundation. You know, as bereaved parents, we know that behind that she's going home and she's sad. So society, sometimes we— I sometimes think we don't always do ourselves a lot of favors by pretending and allowing people to think that we're doing better as a group than perhaps we are. I'm all for honesty and showing how we are trying to make our way through this, but also acknowledging that, yeah, I'm not always great. I'm smiling, but I might not be later, and I wasn't yesterday. I just want to be realistic about grief. Yes, I have a spiritual belief. I know my husband and son around me. It's great. However, I'm, I'm on Earth in Earth school doing this for a reason. So it's not all love and light, you know, for me.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about the concept of Earth School, because I know that's an important concept to you, and it is to me as well. So how do you, how do you view our time here, our roles here?

Well, as we sort of touched on, I guess I've sort of bought into the idea that we have, we come and we choose certain lessons to help our soul growth. And that in our relationships we sort of play certain roles for each other to accelerate that learning. And that we've been around the block with them many times before. And what's that book called? Journey of Souls. I really love that book. I know. And yeah, that's kind of what I believe. There's an interest, there's Anna in One of the Six Women, She writes really well about how to survive the suicide of her son. She sort of very much went to the spiritual life. Mm. And then, and that sort of uplifted her and saved her. And then she realized, I can't be there because I'm on Earth. I've gotta do Earth, I've gotta do life. And I think that's a very good point because we can almost escape into the spiritual But we've still got to go to work, pay the bills, interact with people, you know, navigate life. And that's what we're here to learn. And I think that's something in the spiritual sort of side of grief that slightly gets overlooked. Yeah, but we are here to be on Earth and do earthly things.

Yeah, I think that's a really, really good point. You know, I remember when I was young, I was was, you know, at church and stuff, and they were talking about, like, all, you know, your purpose in life. And, you know, I thought, well, maybe I should just become a, you know, go become a missionary. Or, you know, you have some people that go so far as to become— they go live in cloisters, they become monks, or they become, you know, stuff like that. And I don't think— and then not to belittle that path, but that's not certainly the path for most of us, because we are here to get our hands dirty. We are here to feel the emotions. And so I see people Sometimes they'll say, and I don't want to call anybody out in particular, but there's a person I was doing an interview with on a podcast, and she said, I just don't understand grief. I don't understand why people grieve at all. Why are people sad? If everybody knew what I know, then we would never, we would never grieve somebody. I wanted to say, I don't think you've lost a child. And I know your husband's still here. Come back and talk to me when, when that has happened to you.

Yeah.

Because we are meant to feel these emotions, the emotions that you and I still feel, even though we have these spiritual beliefs.

Yeah. Yeah, you're so right. That must have been infuriating. Or were you really calm and Zen about it? Because I think that would have annoyed me. Because people do think they— yeah. Grief. Is very different if, say, all you've lost is an elderly parent, which I have also, um, done. Um, it's a mix. It's so different. And, and yeah, and, and it doesn't— it does help us, but it's, um, yeah, the grief is the biggest learning curve, I think. Grief for a a significant person in your life, let's put it that way. Not that parents aren't significant, they are. But at the moment, I mean, they say that grief is harder when it— the difference is the people you live with, because that's where you notice it.

Right.

So yeah, husband, children, whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think you were hitting on this. Grief is the one— it's like our biggest teacher. And I was talking to someone the other day and they said, I don't think we could learn without grief. And because if you, if you extend grief to not just losing a person but health, losing a job, you know, all the disappointments of life.

Yeah, those—

that's what we learn from. Um, and if we, if we set ourselves up with this, the spiritual bypass, as I call it, where it's like I'm just a being of light and it's all going to be okay in the end then we're— I don't think we're doing what we're here, what we're sent here to do, because we— then we're not learning from the grief because we're not actually experiencing it.

I agree with you 100%. Yeah. But you see, this is what we're learning as we go along and we're further along our grief journey. Yes. These things, you know, maybe we wouldn't have said that if we were 2 years in.

You know, we're— Exactly right. Yeah, exactly right. And another thing, and you touched on this earlier, I just want to reemphasize, is the stuff we're talking about, you don't say this to someone who's just lost their husband. You don't walk up to them and say, it's going to be okay because you planned all this and, you know, and he's waiting for you. Um, you know, that is not helpful.

Yeah, yeah. Soon after Harry died, I went and had a Reiki session, and this Reiki practitioner said, well, we've all lost children in past lives. And I was like, okay. Yeah. There's some things you can't say to people in early grief, spiritually or otherwise, you know, that, yeah. But yes, people do say the most extraordinary things, don't they? But yeah.

So you mentioned, I know in your book, you, it's your own experience, of course, but you also have 6 women. You mentioned one of the women. Tell us about some of the women. Some more about some of the other women in the book.

Yeah, so the first— the book is structured, um, the first section is my story. So it picks up from literally as, um, uh, Anthony's death really, and, and navigating all the things we've just talked about, um, you know, the practicalities, how I felt, falling apart, etc. And then the third section is divided into mind, body, and spirit. So it's the emotional impact of grief, and it says practical advice. So because, because of, you what you and I do, helping others. We don't just have our own experience, we learn from others, which is an amazing honor that we learn more about grief from other people as well as our own experience. So I write about the emotional impact, the physical impacts we've just touched on, and the spiritual, and how that's the bit that can really propel you forward. And then in the middle, I've got the stories of 6 women because I thought, I don't want it just to be about me and my story. So I've got— I have got 4 bereaved mothers. I've got a bereaved mother and a widow. I've got somebody and a widow who hasn't lost a child. And then I've got somebody who's had lots of multiple losses. And it was really interesting because when I chose them, I didn't know there'd be this commonality throughout, which is Exactly what I, I'm trying to— I was trying to say, and really is the theme of the book, that two things can carry you through the most devastating losses, and that's finding a purpose, helping others, and a spiritual belief. So every single one of them has a spiritual belief in the afterlife. The soul lives on to one— some degree or other, some more than others. And everyone has found a way to help others, um, and that's been part of their healing journey. So, you know, it's that post-traumatic growth thing, you know, and how helping others can, um, yeah, get you through this. So there is a thread through all of us, um, which is quite nice. But, but as I say, I want to— I didn't just want it to be my story, I wanted to other— they are all women, as it turns out, um, but they're all sharing their story honestly without spiritual bias, bypassing that toxic, um, positivity, and offering some hope, but being, you know, raw and gritty with it and not sugarcoating. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, again, it's— I think finding that balance is really important between the spiritual bypassing, the toxic positivity, and then just the— this life sucks and there's no purpose to it. It's finding that balance and being able to live in that tension. Yes, it is a tension. Yeah. So where you are today, Vanessa, which I understand that Harry is one of your guides. Is that true?

Yeah. I think I've been told he is. Yeah. And I feel he is. And I, you know, sometimes in sessions, I'll be working with another bereaved mother, and I just feel he's with their child. And if I feel that, you know, the client is open to it, I might say, well, you know, maybe our boys are here and they're having a bit of a chat as we are. And I just, yeah, I just feel he is, he's with me and Anthony as well. But a different, I mean, I don't know if you feel this about your daughter, but How I perceive Harry now is the essence of who he was as a human being in this lifetime, but also he feels quite different and quite elevated now, if that makes sense to you. I imagine it probably does.

Yeah.

But I— and my husband too, but particularly Harry. I feel he's, you know, well, obviously they do understand everything. They do see the bigger picture. But, yeah, I do feel him guiding me. Definitely. I don't know if you feel that with your daughter as well.

I do. And, you know, it's interesting because I always try to resolve these different paradoxes or different things we hear. One is that when we cross back over, we're still the same person that we were when we're here. The other is that, you know, we are much more enlightened. And I think it's— I think what it is is our perspective shifts. I mean, it's like you're— it's like your eyes are open and you see all the things you forget when you come here. Here. So the way I look at it is when we're here, we're the very limited version of our, of our bigger self. So our children have been released from these physical confines— our, I'm gonna say our children, you and I. So they are, you know, I guess in a way wiser than we are, have access to a different body of information. I'll never forget my cousin who's a couple years older than I am, after my daughter passed away, said, well, Shane is one of your ancestors now. And I was like, what do you mean? She goes, well, yeah, You know, because she— and I'm like, yeah, I guess so. So in a way, yeah, I do believe that Shayna's one of my guides. I blame Shayna for this, this soul plan. Um, I can see this was, this was her idea. Uh, so yeah, I think, and I know that, you know, I will see her again, you know, stuff we talked about.

Yeah. And I— yes, when you say you blame her, I also think it's okay to be angry with them. Sometimes I shout at Harry and Anthony and I swear at them and I, how, you know, tell them off for leaving me, um, and, and, and for just leaving me in, in this while they're swanning around wherever they are in this, you know. I'm like, how dare you leave me here? I don't think that's unhealthy. And obviously you need to have a bit of a rant and vent, and then you kind of calm down and go, okay, well, you know.

And, and I— yeah, it's okay. And I tell people, because you The thing is, and I, and I was jokingly saying that, but people do sometimes have anger in the case especially of like suicides or, yeah, drug deaths and stuff like that. Sometimes people will be angry at their— but they feel like, I can't express that because I don't want to hurt their feelings. It's like, yeah, it's okay. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to say it, you know, it sucks to be here. And, you know, this is a story, but when Shayna, the week before she, she passed away, she and her mother were at a volleyball tournament. Shayna played volleyball and she was in Florida. It was, you know, at this resort. And Shayna's driving around the kids. She wasn't even old enough to drive. They were driving around in golf carts on the resort. And she's ordering smoothies every day. And because her mother lets her do all this stuff. And I remember her mother saying, because I would talk to her mother, but Shayna never got on the phone. And Shayna, her mother says to Shayna, Don't you feel guilty, like, doing all this stuff while Brian and Kayla are back at home and you're having a good time? And Shana said, no, I don't feel guilty at all. I'll see them when I get home. And that's how I picture Shana right now, going, yeah, I'm having a good time, but, you know, I'll see him when he gets here.

Yes, yes, that's a great story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll see them when we get there. Yeah, yeah. And that's the way they see it. Yeah, I'll Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, it's— there is a little bit of jealousy. I can see you saying, you know, when Anthony got to see him first, 'cause I'm like, I always— I'm older than my wife and I'm a male, so I'm like, "I'm not gonna live as long as you, so I'll be there with Shaina first." But we never know how things are gonna work out.

Well, we don't know that yet. We just don't know. And that is what I've been shown, is you simply don't know. What's going to happen, how it's going to happen. You just don't know. And that is the other thing I suppose I've learned, is just accepting that you can't control anything. You can't be sure of anything in terms of, say, security. I mean, I think one thing I suppose I've really struggled with is a lack of safe— feeling unsafe in the world. That's the trauma aspect. But, you know, we do have— that's what I work towards, is going, okay, I have to just get comfortable with not knowing how life is gonna go. I have to accept that I've had shock upon shock and I didn't see it coming, and, and it's the ground beneath me, you know. And that's another thing I, I describe what happened to me, it's like, you know, Harry dies, I'm knocked down like a hurricane, I'm knocked down. And Anthony holds his hand out and we walk together. And then I'm knocked down again, and then there's no one to hold their hand out to me. And that's my thing of going on by myself. But it is that feeling of just accepting that life, even if we take it away from grief and we just look at the state of the world, which we won't go into, but, you know, God knows how things are gonna pan out. It's a very, I suppose I'm talking about, yeah, security in an insecure, the world is insecure, grief makes us feel insecure and it's just accepting, yeah, that's how it is. That's been hard school.

That's a really, really good point. As from the time I was a little kid, I was like, I wanna know what the right answer is, how things are gonna turn out. It's why I became an engineer. Because I'm like, I like engineering because it's definite. But the older I get, the more I realize we have to live with uncertainty. We can have this illusion of what we think is going to happen. And I was realizing this morning, I've noticed for a long time, I'm a catastrophizer. I always think that everything is going to be the worst. So whatever happens, it's like I take it to the nth degree. But the one thing about, you know, having my daughter pass away is it's really made me realize that I don't really have control over anything, and I need to get comfortable with that. And I'm getting more comfortable with that, um, because she was on— she was on vacation, so she was away. And so the week before she passed, and I'm like, okay, she's away, and they're flying, and you know, it's like— and then when their flight landed, she and her mother got home, I was like, okay, great, now they're here. But my other daughter was going away on vacation. Like, they— like, Shayna came in and Kayla went out. So now I'm worried about Kayla. And then Shaina passed away in her bed, like, right down the hall from me in the house. And that's when I realized we don't have control over anything.

Yeah. You becoming an engineer is— yeah, doing something that's very logical, very—

Yeah.

Left brain. Is it left brain? Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. Very— yes. And then for you, with that sort of approach to life, having everything ripped away, is, yeah, but very much part of the lesson that you probably have set up for yourself.

Exactly. So the thing is, and the ironic thing is, I realize now, because the other side of that, because we keep talking about these different tensions, right? So there's the fact I can't control anything, literally anything. But there's also this trust that everything is going to be okay.

Yes.

And that's what's hard for, like, again, this— my left brain to get around. It's like, But whatever happens, it's okay.

Yeah. Yes. And if we just— if we get our heads around the fact that we've had many, many, many, many lifetimes and this is one of many and they're looking down and going, oh, don't sweat this because, you know, it's nothing. You've just chosen to learn this and you— and then there's the whole thing of all lifetimes are happening simultaneously, which is very difficult to get your head around. But in the grand scheme of things, it's— yeah, and we'll— they say that 70% of our soul remains in, in the spirit world. So that 30% is here, and yet we're acting like it's the biggest deal because it feels— and we're meant to think it is, right? But if 70%, if that's right, who knows, 70% of our soul is in the spirit world. Well, A, we're with our loved ones, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

And this is just a small— but it's human nature to struggle with that concept, you know. It is natural that we really find that very difficult to get our heads around. Yeah. But it is, as you say, in the end we go home. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, that's my— it's probably my favorite. I have lots of favorite quotes. One of my favorite quotes is John Lennon, and he says, everything will be okay in the end. And if everything is not okay, it's not the end. And so I just repeat that. That's on repeat throughout my life. And I think of all the things that I've gone through and all the things I thought were, you know, this is the end. This is, you know, when I lost a job or when I got divorced or, you know, all those things I thought was the worst thing ever. And I realized it does work out. And so our souls present us with these opportunities, like, you know, the passing of your son and your husband and stuff. And again, this is not to say we're not at the end, right? But you have to go through this, but you will get there. You will cross that finish line and you will see them again. And that's, that's what keeps me going.

Yeah, yeah, we will be together again. We will find out what it's all about. And your engineer brain and my brain, just, you know, that seeking brain of wanting to know why, what's this all about, why has this happened? I want to make sense of it. I wanna see the bigger picture. And we get glimpses of it now 'cause of what we've gone through. It has accelerated our learning perhaps. Or else, you know, there is the possibility that when you're dead, you're dead and that will be the end of it. But because we don't think that's a possibility, one day, it will all be clear and we'll go, "Oh, okay. I didn't need to get in such a state about that." You know, particularly the relatively more minor things that we fret about in life. But that is part of the human experience and we're here for all of it. Mm-hmm. It's not always easy. You said about your John Lennon quote, the quote that I have I've been using as my mantra in recent months is a Buddhist, um, quote, I think, and it's, um, "Hold it loosely, hold it lightly, hold it with love." Yeah, because sometimes I feel like I am, you know what we're talking about, I'm holding it quite tightly, right? And it's just like, loosen your grip, hold it with love. In the end, It will all be revealed.

Yeah, that's, that's perfect. I love that. I think that's a great way to, to wrap up because, uh, it's what we've been talking about this whole time, right? It's not, it's not, you know, people talk about, uh, the idea of unattachment, you know, where, you know, Buddhism is like you're not supposed to be attached to anything, which, but means you wouldn't love. I mean, because love is attachment.

Doesn't work for me.

Doesn't work. Yeah. And I think that's a mis— I think that's a misunderstanding of the Buddhist concept, actually. But yeah, we are meant to love, so we are meant to hold, but we're also— we have to hold loosely, and we have to be willing to let go of things as they slip away, you know, at least for a while.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

Yeah. Vanessa, thanks so much for being here again today. Remind people of the name of your 3 books and your latest book and how people can find you.

So my first book is Love Untethered: How to Live When Your Child Dies, but the sequel to that, but you can read them both separately, is this one, which is "When Grief Takes Everything: A Survival Guide to Devastating Loss." So that's my new book, and which I feel I've sort of obviously grown since the first book. I understand a lot more. My middle book is for wellness practitioners.

Okay.

And it's called "Supporting Your Grieving Client." But yeah, and I have two websites, but my author website is vanessamay.co.uk. UK. And you can follow me on Instagram, which is @may.wellbeing.griefsupport. So yeah, and I love to hear from people, particularly if you've read my books. I love to hear from you and connect with people.

Yeah, well, again, thanks for being here today. Enjoy the rest of your day, and I'll see you soon.

Thank you.

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