Whitney Allen's Inspiring Journey: From Grief To Finding Purpose After Loss Of Spouse EP 361

You know you need something, you're just not sure what. You've been listening, you're doing the work, but there's still this feeling that you're circling the same place, like you're waiting for the thing that finally moves you. Now maybe you've thought about working with me one-on-one. Maybe something's held you back, the timing, the money, or you're just not sure you're ready yet. I get that. And I want you to know there's still a place for you. I built a resource for exactly this moment, guided meditations for when the waves hit and you just need to breathe. Workbooks to help you get out of your head and onto the page, ebooks on what near-death experiences tell us about the people we've lost, and whether they're really gone, a full course for widows and widowers who are ready to find their way back to living, and a full course for the evidence of the afterlife. And all of it is available for pay what you want. Nobody gets turned away because of money. I think these resources are valuable, but I don't want to hold them back because you don't have the money to pay for them. You don't have to wait until you're ready for coaching. The next step might be a lot smaller than you think. To find out, go to grief2growth.com/store. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/store. And check out the resources I've made for you. Close your eyes and imagine. What are the things in life that cause us the greatest pain? The things that bring us grief are challenges, challenges designed to help us grow, to ultimately become what we were always meant to be. We feel like we've been buried. But what if, like a seed, we've been planted? And having been planted, we grow to become a mighty tree. Now, open your eyes. Open your eyes to this way of viewing life. Come with me as we explore your true, infinite, eternal nature. This is Grief to Growth. And I am your host, Brian D Smith. Hey there, this is Brian back with another episode of Grief to Growth. And I like to say in the heart of every shadow, there's always a glimmer of light. There's always a testament to the resilience of the human spirit, even in the face of loss. So today on the Grief to Growth podcast, we're going to bridge the realms of the seen and the unseen, exploring the profound journey from sorrow to serenity. So welcome back if you've been here before. And anybody that's new, my name is Brian Smith, and I'm your host. Today we're going to be with Whitney Lynn Allen, and Whitney is a beacon of hope and transformation for those who are adrift in a sea of grief. Her life took an unexpected turn when tragedy struck her family, leading her from the courtroom to the sacred space of healing and advocacy. She's a dedicated, devoted mother, dedicated also, I'm sure, to Jackson and Leo, and has— she's faced the unimaginable loss of her husband, Ryan D Smith. Her journey is a testament to the power of love and the indomitable strength of the human spirit. She's the author of the Amazon bestseller Running in Trauma Stilettos. And she's channeled her pain into purpose, offering solace and guidance as a certified grief educator. So with that, I'd like to welcome to Grief to Growth Whitney Lynn Allen.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to speaking with you today, Whitney. And I first want to say I'm sorry for the loss of your, your husband. That, uh, unimaginable tragedy.

Thank you, I really appreciate that.

So I'd like to start off by letting you tell us about Ryan.

Okay. Um, you know, it's so funny, like, I, I do a lot of these podcasts and usually people don't really ask that a lot with— so it's, um, I love sharing about him. So my late husband Ryan, he, he was really larger than life. Um, He loved to tell jokes and tell stories. He made everybody laugh. He was the best dad to our son Jackson, who was 3 at the time of his accident, and he was so excited to be a dad to our youngest son Leo. But unfortunately, he— his accident happened when I was 26 weeks pregnant, so he didn't really get to to experience Leo at all. But he was so ambitious. He started the K-9 unit at his police department in 2019 or 2018. After so many years of hearing that it would never happen, he just kept trying and he did end up founding his police department's K-9 unit. Police Department's first K-9 unit, and he did so well, and he became so amazing with what he did with his K-9 Louie. Um, and watching him be able to live out his dream before everything fell apart is, you know, it was one of my greatest joys. So I'm, I'm so glad he got to do that. But he, Ryan, loved life. He just was the epitome of somebody that that didn't leave anything on the table. He just did everything right, honestly. Like, he just loved life so much.

Yeah, well, thanks for sharing him with us. And I know he passed in 2022. Is that right?

Yeah.

And how old was he at the time?

He was 35.

35. Wow, that's so young. So tell me what happened with Ryan.

Uh, I guess to, you know, keep a very long story short, October 14th, 2021, um, Ryan was on the way home from the gym. Uh, he got stung by a bee at some point along his, his journey from the gym to home. I, I'm not really sure the details of that. Um, and when he got home, he went into anaphylaxis with no known allergy to bees at all. Um, he actually even had been stung many times before, and he had such a severe reaction that it caused his heart to stop, um, which then caused an anoxic brain injury, which happens when somebody is deprived of oxygen to their brain for an extended period of time.

Yeah, well, that's— I'm sorry, that sounds, um, It's just, again, it's almost unimaginable to think that, you know, this healthy young person with no known allergies, um, you know, to have that sudden, sudden transition. So, um, I don't even know what to ask you next. What was it? When did you, when did you determine, or when did you realize that you weren't going to be able to, to bring him home?

Uh, so after his accident, um, he So I mean, honestly, it was, it was kind of a miracle he even was able to be revived. Um, so that kind of started the clock on, you know, he was in the ICU for more than 2 months, um, a neuro ICU in Philadelphia. Um, and he was in a coma and then transitioned into like a vegetative state. Uh, but he was able to wean off the ventilator, which was another miracle. Um, and then he was in and out of rehab and hospitals on the over like a 5-month, 6-month period. And there became a time, which is like 2 years now, like in February of 2022, where his doctors basically told us that there was no chance of any meaningful recovery just looking at his imaging of his brain. So at that point, you know, we had, we had to make a decision whether We wanted to bring Ryan home on full care, admit him to a nursing home, or put him on hospice or palliative care. And honestly, there— unfortunately, to me, I felt like there was only one reasonable option that I feel really honored who Ryan was, and that was to allow him to pass and not be you know, kind of trapped in his body because he really couldn't do anything. Um, so myself, my mother-in-law, my sister-in-law, we all decided together that the best thing for Ryan was to place him on hospice. Um, you know what that looks like for somebody with a brain injury is that you withdraw all life-sustaining care. So, um, you take away hydration and, and feeding that he had. He had a feeding tube. And you let, you know, we let him pass naturally. Um, and so he died on April 7th, 2022.

At your age, and how long had you guys been married at that time?

We had just celebrated, 2 days before his accident, our 8-year wedding anniversary. Um, we were together 10 years.

10 years. I would imagine that you hadn't discussed anything like you know, palliative care or, you know, power of attorneys or, you know, that kind of stuff at that age. So how— making those decisions, sounds like your family and his mother were involved and helped you with that.

Yeah, I mean, we, we honestly didn't have those conversations. Like, I, I wish now I would have pushed us to have those conversations. I think when you're young and you're in the prime of your life, it's You know, you don't want to think about those things. Um, you know, he's— he was a police officer, so he always, in the back of his mind, like, he always understood, like, he may not come home. Um, but we just didn't— we talked about that but didn't talk about, like, what if I survive but I'm not able to make decisions for myself? Um, so that was something that I had to deal with, unfortunately. Um, And I had to make those decisions based on what I thought was right for Ryan at the time.

Yeah, so making those decisions, a lot of times when we lose someone in any event, in any way, there's guilt that comes along with that. There's regret or remorse. Have you experienced any of that?

You know, I, I work with clients now as a, as a grief educator, grief coach, and, you know, that's, that's something that, you know, a lot of my clients deal with. Um, I felt like I, I didn't have a lot of guilt, um, fortunately, because I just knew Ryan so well and I knew what he would want and wouldn't want. Um, I almost felt more guilt for like not letting him pass, like, in the ICU, because we did have the decision, like, to take him off of life support when he was there. Um, and I feel like it would have enabled him not to suffer as much as he did with the hospitals and everything. Um, but I, I, you know, again, I made the best decision with the information I had at the time, and I've moved past, you know, the stage where I, I carry guilt because I did the best I could.

Yeah, and the reason I asked you that question is because, and I'm sure you've done this work with clients, as you kind of alluded to, almost every client I've worked with has some sort of guilt, and it doesn't matter how our loved ones pass. So if we decide, you know, for example, if you'd said, okay, they're very early on, we're going to let them go now, then there's— there could be guilt about like, I, I shouldn't have let him go that soon, we should have fought harder. But if you, if you keep them, the person around longer, then you feel guilty that you made them suffer. So I just like to let people that are listening know these are the types of things we have to work through when, when we have— we're faced with these types of decisions.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um, and you're right, if I, if I hadn't seen, like, played it out to see if he would have recovered, I would have, you know, felt guilty for, you know, kind of quote unquote throwing in the towel like too soon. So You know, I think, I think like 6 months and we were told he wouldn't recover. Like, I knew at that time, like, we, we had done everything we could.

Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm sure you did. And, and as you said, we do the best we can with what we know at the time.

Yeah.

Um, so that's, that's something that as a grief educator, we have to help our clients sometimes get to that point where they, they understand that.

Yeah, exactly.

So at the time when Ryan passed, I assume you weren't a grief educator at that point?

No, no, not at all.

So what were you doing at that time?

Well, after Ryan's accident happened, I, I didn't work. I couldn't work because we were in and out of hospitals. I took a leave. And then I also had a baby. So I was on maternity leave. So I was a lawyer in my life before, um, Ryan's accident. Um, and then there came a point after Ryan died where I could have gone back to law, um, but it just didn't feel right, um, and authentic to the person I had become, uh, you know, molded by grief and loss and trauma. I just, I couldn't see myself going back.

So do you feel like you somehow became a different person from the grief and the trauma?

Oh, completely different person. Um, I, I think— I don't think anybody comes out of that kind of loss unchanged in almost like every way possible. Yeah.

So what was the transformation like for you? How, how were you different? How are you different?

Uh, that's a good question. I mean, just, um, because we're talking about careers, like, for me, I just felt like if I wasn't doing something I loved and was passionate about, um, and that like kind of like lit my heart on fire every day, like, uh, life is way too short to, to do that then. Um, so although I traded a very stable career for something very unknown, like, that was worth it to me because I didn't want to like waste my life in, you know, like an office from 9 to 5 for like another 40 years. Like, I just couldn't see myself doing that. Um, so that was one of the ways I changed, just like being able to take leaps of faith. Um, even though it was scary, because I know life is so short. Like, I know life— I knew life was short before, but now I truly intimately know what that means. Um, You know, I think it has made me appreciate the people in my life so much more and just like little things in life. I mean, just like being able to spend time with my sons or like a sunrise or sunset just like has so much more deeper meaning to me now. Um, I think it changes your perspective like spiritually in terms of like where do we go after we die and I know, I feel now like I'm so sure that there is like an another part of life after our lives on Earth. And I just, you know, I feel like Ryan D Smith has made me truly know that that is what happens.

So what were your thoughts, if any, on where we go after we die before Ryan's accident?

I mean, I always believed in heaven and God and all that, but I feel like until I lost Ryan, I didn't feel it. Like, I didn't feel like that connection because I never lost someone so close to me. But now I just like feel that connection between like me and him that's somewhere else, if that makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, makes complete sense. So yeah, that— I think that's, uh, there seems to be a point in a lot of our lives where something comes along and wakes us up, right? We, we sit, we think, okay, well, yeah, I believe in heaven or stuff, but it's kind of a, yeah, in the back of your mind, and someday I'll face that in the very distant future. But, uh, I would imagine when Ryan, you know, passed and was no longer with you physically, it forces you to really dig deep. To, to maintain that relationship.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Um, I think part of how we survive after this kind of loss is the continuing connection with our person and continuing that relationship, although it's, it's obviously is not the same and it's not what we want, but I think that's how we survive. Stay with us. We'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief? Most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up. So you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast. Essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss. And still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night, written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become. A place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth. I hope to see you there. So Jackson at the time when it was just about 3 when, when Ryan passed?

He was 4, like around 3 and a half, like a little more than 3 and a half when his accident happened.

Okay. And has— how he— how has he coped with, with his father not being there?

Yeah, Jackson, um, I mean, he is such a brave, like, resilient little boy. Kids are so amazing. Um, so he's doing really well. I mean, in the beginning it was really hard because he went from like of just a normal life, um, to, you know, his mom being the only one home and having to go to the hospital every day and like less time with me and me being exhausted all the time and crying all the time and for— and not having his dad around. So there was a time period where there was a lot of like behavioral turmoil with him, um, in the beginning stages, but I am really grateful that he's doing so much better now.

Yeah, you said kids are really resilient, and at that age, I, you know, I don't even know how much they understand what, what death is, so I didn't know how he would, um, deal with, with that. So when you, you said you could decided, uh, as far as going back and being a lawyer, I guess that just didn't really feel like something you wanted to do, so How do you decide to become a grief educator?

Uh, I, you know, the best way I can describe it is I, I knew from experiencing such a tremendous loss that we don't talk about this stuff enough. We don't educate people enough. There's not enough support. I mean, I had trouble finding like a grief therapist to even help me like through my own grief. Um, so I wanted to become somebody that I needed when I was going through the worst days of my life because I know how much it's needed and how much, like, we just don't have enough resources. Um, so I mean, that's really why I wanted to become a grief educator, and my grief therapist actually recommended David Kessler's course because she felt like the, you know, would have really good information. And she liked— she looked at like the website and she said, you know, she kind of agreed with the curriculum. So that's kind of why I did that.

So there, you know, I'm sure people have heard of grief counselors, and you mentioned grief therapists. How is a grief educator different?

I mean, we're different because, you know, we're not licensed therapists or counselors, whereas, you know, people that are licensed, they have to go through a lot of training in school. Um, you know, a grief coach, we— like, all I do is work with people in grief, whereas like a therapist or counselor works with people who are going through a lot of different life transitions and, um, you know, difficulties or struggles. Um, you know, I, as a grief coach or educator, I get to kind of pull my own personal experience and use that to help clients, whereas, you know, there's like ethical boundaries, um, when you're a therapist or counselor where you're not really supposed to tell your clients about your own personal story, um, which I feel like that's like one of the most powerful things I do is like be able to relate to my clients on that very personal level.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I find that almost every client that I have has either been to a grief counselor, or maybe sometimes they're even still going to a grief counselor, but they find something missing. And it's that personal connection, that, that thing that's like, they want to understand that you know what they're going through.

Yeah, that's exactly been my experience. Like, people either come to me intuitively knowing that, and they're like, I want, I want to work with somebody that knows exactly what I'm experiencing. I just don't want to be told like, oh, I understand, and you actually don't. Or they come to me because like a lot of therapists and therapists and counselors, they get very little training on how to help people through grief specifically unless they're, you know, unless they're specifically a grief counselor or therapist.

Yeah, I noticed it was really interesting when I was going through— I went through David Kessler's program also. And when I was going through it, there were so many grief counselors, traditional therapists, nurses, doctors, etc., that were going through the program because they didn't get a lot of training on grief in their, in their formal education.

Yeah, exactly. You know, and it's amazing, like some of my clients, they come to me and they tell me, some of the advice that their therapists give them. And like, I think therapists are amazing. But sometimes the, the, what they say about grief is just like, it's just not helpful. Unfortunately.

Yeah, well, I think, well, I know the medical industry still treats grief as a disease. It's something to be gotten over. It's something to be, to be cured or to be healed.

Right. Or like, be, you know, like something that you can put away for a little bit. I just got off like a call with a client and she was describing like her— somebody she worked with previously had told her to just like put away her grief until 4:30 and she could take it out. And she's like, that's— I can't do that like that. I don't understand what that means. And, you know, and she's right because grief, there's no— like you can't just like put away grief for a time period. You have to learn how to manage it and live with it. Because it's not something that you can extinguish or like throw away or put away. It's like you have to carry it forever.

Yeah. So I have to say, I'm just truly amazed by your resiliency. I mean, this— it's been still less than 2 years since, since Ryan passed. Um, at what point in time did you decide, okay, I know you said you, you could go back to being a lawyer. Um, it's a big switch from like that to I'm going to help other people with this. Um, so when was that? How long has it been since you, since you made that decision?

Uh, it's been, I think I made that decision like the summer after Ryan D Smith died. So it's been like more than 2 years since I made that decision, but I made the decision for the grief not to consume me. When the day that Ryan died, because I realized like how easily it could— I could be swallowed up by all of this and kind of use it almost as like an excuse not to live my life, um, in like a joyful, purposeful, like fulfilling way. Because I think that's what a lot of people do. It's just like they lose their person or they, they go through a tragedy and they just, they use it as an excuse to just throw in the towel and be like, well, my person died, so I, I get to be unhappy the rest of my life. But like, that's not that happiness is a choice. But you can decide, like, do I want to try to live my life in a really good way? And like, what does that look like now?

Yeah, well, you know, there is no timeline for grief, as you know. But we typically, we see kind of things where people, it takes a while to get to a point of of committing to even trying to find joy again. Um, yeah, because have you noticed when, like, when you talk to clients early on and you mention joy or purpose, uh, what's their response?

I can't even imagine that right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I say that's reasonable, but like, do you have hope? Like, do you? Because the clients that I can't help are the people that come to me and they're like, I'm miserable. I have no hope for the future. Like, I, you know, I don't want to try. And, you know, the people that just like have no hope or like can't even— and I'm not even asking them to imagine their future because that's impossible, but like, do you just have like an inkling of hope? Like, that's all I look for, right? And I know that if they have some sort of hope, then like I'm able to help them. But you have to want to help yourself. Like, I can't do that for people.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I've been fortunate. I've only had one prospect, I would say, not a client, who was like that. And this person, they would call me, they would email me, and all they wanted to do was talk about the way that their husband had passed. And they were like, he was in the hospital and they said they had been, you know, they killed him. And why did it? And you could just tell this person had no hope and, you know, wouldn't even listen. They were just, just, you know, talking the whole time. So there are those people that, as you said, we, we can't help. We'd like to help, but we can't. We— you have to be able to do something for yourself.

Yeah, exactly. And it just might, you know, that might take a little bit for them to get there. You know, it could be like they reached rock bottom and they know, like, I could stay on this path or I could try to find the light, um, even if I don't know what that looks like right now. But, you know, I think people take a different amount of time to get there. Yeah.

Tell me about your book. Uh, first of all, tell me about the title of your book.

Yeah. Um, so my book, my first book, Running in Trauma Stilettos, um, you know, the title came to me because I just had this imagery of because I was in the hospitals all the time with Ryan, like running through the corridors in stilettos because that just seems super uncomfortable. And just like, it just seemed like an impossible thing to do, which is like how I felt like I was living during that time. So I just felt like that was a powerful image. So that's kind of where the title came from.

Tell me about the book itself.

Yeah, so the, the book itself is really, you know, it, it chronicles what happened, um, like Ryan's accident. Um, oh, sorry, I'm gonna have to switch out of my earbuds. Can you hear me? Okay. Um, so it chronicles after Ryan's accident, um, and then up until the time of his death, the kind of everything that happens in between. And then also, you know, our life in the before and our love story. And, you know, and at the end, you know, I start having like seeing that hope and seeing the light, even though I don't know what my life is going to look like. It's just, you know, me just having hope that I do have a future after this tremendous loss.

Yeah, I think that was what we talked about earlier. That's a really important thing is, is having that hope. And that's one thing that your story does, or can do for people that are early in that phase we talked about. I was just talking with someone this morning who, whose son passed away in December. And we're recording this in February. So it's been like 8 weeks. And this person was asking me like, so when does it get back? I was telling him it gets better. Was like, well, when does it get better?

Yeah.

And I'm like, well, it takes a while. You know, it does. And I hate to say that to people, but it does. It's a process.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it takes a really long time to start. Well, first, like, just to get out of, like, a survival mode, like, where you're just kind of going through the motions on autopilot. Like, that takes a long time. And then you're kind of in that really raw stage of grief where you're just in all of these intense emotions, and then you have to get through that stage. And then, you know, and then you're coming out of that like survival, really acute stage of grief, and then you're like, what is— what the heck does my like life look like now? Um, what do I want it to look like? So it's, you know, and then becoming comfortable in the new life that you're building. And it's like people think it's just like once you start feeling better, then it's like you'll feel better forever. But it's just, it's, it's a roller coaster. And you just have to learn to kind of ride the waves a bit better and with more grace and ease. Because that's all we can do. We can't eliminate the waves.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So when you're working with clients, what type of process do you take them through in terms of dealing with their grief?

Yeah, that's, that's a really good question. Um, you know, that really depends on where, where people are in their grief. Um, like for example, if somebody comes to me and they're more kind of like perseverating on like what their trauma and what has happened, like obviously there are things that we have to process before we start kind of like focusing on like the future stuff or even the present stuff. Um, But I first just like to focus on, like, let's— if you're suffering in any areas, like whether that's sleep or not eating right, or, you know, you're just feeling like you're having ruminations, like, let's try to, to focus on those first so we can even start, like, the grief work. Because if you're suffering in an area, we can't even touch, like, the processing part. Um, and, you know, so it's like, it's really so individual based on the needs of each client.

So I know you've, you've turned your, your pain into purpose. Have you seen— have you had any clients' examples where they've been able to turn around and take in their grief and turned it into something?

Oh, yeah, so many of my clients, you know, that I work with, and it's like, purpose can look different for everybody. I mean, I have some clients where they find purpose, they lose their husband, more, I'm like, they were just about to retire, so they find their purpose, like their grandkids, and you know what that looks like, or their children or their grown kids. Or, you know, the younger widows that I work with, like, they, you know, they find purpose in other things. Like, they might start helping other young widows in their community, um, or they feel like, you know, maybe the job that they have right now isn't something they want to do forever, so they start exploring their options. So Again, it's so individual, but I think, you know, purpose looks different on everyone.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And people, as you kind of said, are in different phases of their life and different things, but it's just finding whatever it is that works for you, I guess, to look forward to.

Yeah, exactly. You have to— it takes a while to figure out, you know, you know, what life looks like without your person. And that takes a lot of experimenting, it takes a lot of discomfort, it takes a lot of pushing yourself outside, you know, your comfort zone. Because even within grief, I mean, grief becomes comfortable at a point, um, like the pain of it or even the guilt of it, because it keeps you from moving forward, which is scarier sometimes than like the known grief that you're feeling.

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, a lot of times I've heard people when they start to— I hate the word heal because grief is not a disease— but when they start to get to that point where they're feeling a little bit better, they're not feeling the pain as intensely, then the guilt will set in, or the fear. The fear of, okay, I can't give this up because it's become so comfortable to me.

Yeah, it does. There, I think there are emotions and energy that we hold that, you know, it serves a purpose for different seasons of our grief. But then we also have to learn to let go as we're moving forward, because we can't take those with us. Yeah.

So you mentioned earlier that you said, I now, I know that we go on, you know, after, after we, after we pass. So what is it? Where does your knowing come from? How do you know?

I think it's more of like a gut feeling and intuition, like being able to like feel a presence that really isn't— like, I can't see it, but I can feel it. I mean, and isn't that just like what hope is? And like, it's just even without any evidence, it's like we feel something. Um, so it's just a knowing without being able to see it or even understand, but feeling it. Um, you know, and I believe that our loved ones can send us signs from wherever they are. And there are just some things that like have happened that I just can't explain, um, and I can only explain it through the fact that, you know, there's something out there that I can't understand right now.

So you've had some signs from Ryan?

Oh, so many. Yeah, I mean, I, I think when we're open these things, they, they come to us a little bit easier. Um, you know, his sign, like, that he shows me is like rainbows or ones, like angel numbers. And I mean, I have seen like the most magnificent rainbows since he died. I mean, I have never seen anything like it. Um, or just like colors in the sky that have no explanation, like they're not rainbows but they're just colors. Which I've never seen in my entire life before he passed away. And, um, so I don't know. I mean, maybe it's just coincidence. I don't know if I even believe in coincidences anymore.

I don't, I don't believe in coincidences anymore. I know there are, you know, we call them synchronicities, right? They're, they're things that, that, that are timed up that would have no reasonable explanation. And I've had crazy synchronicities. So I don't use the word coincidence anymore.

Yeah, I, I resonate with that.

So going forward with your, with your kids, I'm wondering, how do you, how do you talk to them about Ryan? Or what is that? How do you maintain the relationship? You know, when you lose someone so— when the kids are so young? Have you thought about that? Or what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think intuitively, it's just I let them lead. Um, and, you know, my— the, the youngest one, it's so hard because he's not like— he's not even old enough to really like be able to start processing some of this stuff. But right, my oldest son, who knew Ryan, um, you know, and like until he was like 4 years old when Ryan passed, um, you know, for him, if he like talks about Ryan, I just encourage it. I make him feel like witnessed in whatever he's talking about and just say, you know, like, I, I love when you talk about Daddy. Um, you know, you can always talk to me about him. Um, I love hearing stories that you tell me and just, you know, keeping an open dialogue. You know, I, I don't feel the pressure to have to like force any conversations on him. It's like, it just— I like when things come up authentically. And they do. I mean, there are things that happen and Jackson, my son, will be like, oh, my daddy did that with me. And I'll just acknowledge it. And I'll, you know, see if he wants to talk more about it. And like, that's just, I feel like, in all things, I let him lead.

Yeah, I think that's a great way to go about it. And a lot of times, you know, little kids, especially I was wondering what, because his age, sometimes they'll actually see the person in spirit. So I don't know if you had any experience with that.

Yeah, I think there was one, like, a couple times where Jackson told me that, that his daddy was playing with him. But I think Leo sees Ryan, like, actually sees him, but he can't really, like, tell me because he's too little. Yeah, but he, you know, there's pictures of Ryan everywhere, but I don't, like, maybe every day say, oh, that's daddy. Like, I don't, you know, he's just he's there, but like life gets in the way. You're not necessarily pointing at pictures all the time saying like, oh, that's— but he knows. Like he sees pictures of Ryan and says, that's Daddy. Like he knows, which is like so crazy to me.

Yeah, yeah. So, um, as far as being a grief educator, this seems like something you think you want to do, or obviously you're, you're feel like you're feeling that this is your purpose now, I guess.

Yeah, I think for right now, I love working with people one-on-one. You know, right now it's like I have— I'm like a full-time grief coach. Like, that's what I do most of the time, like, during my day. You know, it might change in the future in terms of, like, how many, like, one-on-one sessions I have and my help might transform into different things. But for right now, I'm really enjoying what I'm doing.

Yeah, well, you're doing, you're doing great work. You're doing a great thing that's really needed. And, you know, I think a lot of times, again, people want to talk to people that have suffered a similar type of loss. So I work with a lot of parents who have lost children. I'd imagine you probably attract a lot of, a lot of widows.

Yeah, so I mean, I mostly— there are some people that reach out to me that have had other losses, but I'm— and I do work with them. But mostly it's widows that reach out to me and widows who I work with, just because I think, you know, when you know exactly what someone's been through, it's just that connection is really powerful.

Yes, absolutely. So anything else you'd like to share with us today?

Um, no, not really. I, you know, I just, you know, if anyone is, is out there, they're listening to this and they're struggling right now, I just want them, you know, it does— I know it feels heavy right now, but just to hold on to hope that one day it won't be so heavy, even though you don't have any evidence of that. I'm— I am giving you the evidence today that that's possible for you.

Yeah, well, you are the evidence. I— you are the evidence. I will say, when in, in the early stages of after my daughter passed away, and I thought I couldn't get any better, um, talking to other parents and seeing other parents who were— I can't believe it's going to be 9 years for me now in, in June. Uh, I couldn't even imagine 9 years, but seeing people that were at 9 or 10 years let me know it was possible.

Yeah, yeah. And that's, I mean, that is the best that you can do when you are so like in the darkness of a loss is just like seeing other people that have walked that path and they're like giving you the light at that point.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you talked about hope earlier. And I will, I will tell clients sometimes it's like, well, let me, let me hold the hope for you for right now. You know, if you can, if you can just let me hold it for you for, for the beginning stages. Because you and I both can remember those days, you know, really well when you felt like that this is not going to get any better.

Oh, yeah. I mean, you truly feel that and that is justified in the moment. Like, I think for a season, like, I think there is a season to feel completely terrible and lost and almost like hopeless. Like, I think that's needed to be able to get to like the next part. I don't think we can avoid that.

Yeah, I completely agree. Well, tell people where they can find you and find out more about you.

Yeah, so if you're on social media, I'm @WhitneyLynnAllen pretty much everywhere— Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn. Um, and you can go to my website at Whitney Lynn Allen to get more information about my story. Um, and my book Running in Trauma Stilettos is on Amazon.

Sounds great. Well, Whitney, it was good to talk to you today. Um, enjoy the rest of your afternoon.

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Bye. Hi there, I'm really excited to tell you about my latest ebook. It's 4 lessons that you can learn from the near-death experience without going through all the trouble of dying to learn them. I've been studying NDEs for several years now. I am completely convinced that not only are they 100% real, but that there's some very universal wisdom that we can get from the near-death experience. And I've distilled that down in this book into 4 short lessons. And I've also given you all the reasons why I believe that NDEs are absolutely real. So go to www.grieftogrowth.com/NDElessons to pick it up for free. Www.grief2growth.com/NDElessons. I hope you enjoy it.