Who Is In? Who Am I?- Avikal Costantino

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Hey everybody, this is Brian D Smith with another episode of Brief to Growth. And today I've got with me Avikal Costantino. Avikal is a mystic, he's a poet, he's a martial artist. Curiosity, passion, and love for the truth guide his life and his teaching. He's a director of the Integral Being Institute, active in Europe, Asia, and Australia. Avikal worked as an anthropologist and a freelance photographer. His love for martial arts, which began in 1970, took him to teaching Aikido and sword in 1987, while his love for the body produced diplomas and professional activity in shiatsu, yuki, and seiti. These are, these are healing techniques. In 1983, Avikal became a disciple of the Indian mystic Osho, who many of you have heard of. And from 1988 to 1990, when Osho left his body, He was also our— in 1990, when Osho left his body, should say, he was also his personal photographer. From 1989 to 1994, he was director of the Osho School for Centering and Zen Martial Arts in the Multiversity in Osho's commune in Pune, India. Now being involved with Zen and Advaita for more than 25 years, he leads retreats such as Satori and the Awareness Institute and the Awareness Intensive, I should say. And we're going to talk about what Satori is and also the Awareness Intensive. These retreats are focused on the existential questions, who is in and who am I? And since 1997, he's developed an innovative and original approach to the work with the inner judge. He's a well-known teacher of essence and Enneagram. He's also a life coach, a management trainer and executive mentor working with presence leadership, resilience and conflict resolution in Italy and Australia. So you can tell he's well traveled. He's got a lot of experience. He currently lives in Bondi, Australia, which is where he's speaking to me from today. And Avikal is also a poet. So with that, I want to welcome to Creator Growth, Avikal Costantino.

Hi, hi, Brian. Good to see you. And thank you for inviting me to this podcast.

Yeah, it's great to have you here. As we, as I mentioned before we started recording, the questions Who am I? And what am I? And why am I here? These are some of the questions that we really tend to ponder a lot when we go through life-altering events. Most of the people listen to my podcast have been through grief. And that's why they're here. And some of these questions really come up during that time. So to start off, I'd like to ask you about the title of your book, Who Is In? And what does that actually mean that, that, that koan, Who Is In?

Well, okay, first of all, what is a koan? A koan is a question that does not have an intellectual answer. So it's not something that we can answer through our accumulated knowledge. It's not about information. It's not about our past. It's not about what we have learned and read during, during our life. It's really about experiencing directly in the moment.. So the only possible— I don't even want to call it an answer, but the only possible revelation that can happen, you know, it can only happen in the moment when each one of us is fully present in the here and now, and is connected with oneself and with everything that we live in. So it's really about contact, it's really about connection, it's really about being present right in this moment. So in this moment, I am talking to you. So the way that I can be aware of the fact that I'm talking to you, if I am present with the fact that I am talking, that there are words coming, that there are sensations in my physical body, and so on. So who is in is, is, is more a quest than a question. Like we call it a question, but it's more a quest, you know, finding out Who is this individual that experiences everything? For example, you mentioned grief. Grief is something that happens to a specific individual. And that is an event that has sometimes very— is very overwhelming. Sometimes it's full of pain. Sometimes it can, can bring even even often actually brings a very deep understanding about oneself. But who is the one who is having this experience? So who is the subject of all this transformation, revelation, changes that happen? So this is what a koan is about. A koan is about a movement from our attention focused on what happens to us, to our attention focused on who is the one to whom everything is happening, to subjectivity. So this is the main focus of the work with existential koans. Who is the experiencer? Who is the subject?

Yeah, and I think most of us would say, well, that's a pretty basic question. I know who I am. I'm, I'm Brian. I'm Sarah. I'm Avikal. So what's the difference between saying I'm Brian and really knowing who I am?

Well, I am Brian is basically saying I am my name. But you are not your name. No, your name is something that's being given to you or to me or to anybody else. As a tool that most of the time is often used by other people to identify you. But behind that name, who is this person that identifies with? I am Avikal, I am Brian D Smith, I am Italian, I am American, I'm Australian, I'm a man, I'm a woman. Who is that? Who? You know, when Moses, after having been talking with, with God, was going back to his tribe, at some point after walking for a little bit, he just got, oh, I forgot something. So I turned around, went again and asked God, God, but if my people ask me who you are, what should I say? And the answer was, tell them that I am that I am. Was not a name, was not a definition, was an affirmation of pure presence. So what we are looking for is that sense of being that pure presence, which is beyond definition, which is beyond names, which is beyond our personal history. Which is beyond the color of my skin, which is beyond what I know or I don't know. It's the mystery. Stay with us, we'll be right back.

You know, one of the hardest things about grief— most of the people in your life just don't get it. They want you to be further along than you are. They get uncomfortable when you bring it up, so you stop bringing it up. And that's why I started writing. My Substack is where I go deeper. Thoughts I don't always get to on the podcast, essays on consciousness, on continuing bonds, on what it actually means to carry a loss and still build a life. The stuff that used to keep me up at night written out in a way that I hope meets you in the morning. But here's what I didn't expect when I started it: the community that showed up. People who are doing exactly what you're doing— listening, learning, trying to find their footing. Readers who comment, who share their own stories, who remind each other that none of us are as alone in this as we feel. And that's what the Substack has become— a place to go deeper with me and to find your people. It's free to subscribe. Find me at grief2growth.com/substack. That's grief, the numeral 2, growth.com/substack. Or just go to Substack and search for Grief to Growth.

I hope to see you there. Yes, yes. And I think what I get now is the koan is not— it's not to be answered, as you said. It's something to help us reflect. And a lot of times I think it's that we have to answer it almost in the negative— who I am not. You know, I am not my name. I am not the son of my parents. That doesn't define who I am.

Yes, that's usually the first, most fundamental step. In India, it's called— this particular way of dealing with it is called neti neti, not this, not that, which is a particular technique where they say, well, I'm not my hand moving in this moment, I'm aware of my hand moving. I'm not the name that I'm used to, and so on. So we start putting away all the definitions. And then in that moving away from all the definitions, what happens is that the inner space, which usually is crowded by definitions and history, starts kind of opening up and showing as a space where there are no definitions, where there are no objects, and yet is not empty, is full of presence, is full of the fact that I am still the one who is aware of the space. I am that space. I am that spaciousness. I am that presence. So, but this is, you see, when it's put into words, doesn't mean much. Because it's an experience. It's just an experience. It's something that goes beyond the words that I can use. I can call it presence. But what is the inner experience of presence? Like, like when we say, you know, I am in love. Yes. But the word love doesn't even come close to the experience of experiencing love, because love is beyond the definition, is beyond the experience. So this is, this is a process where we move from I know who I am, to, well, actually, I don't know who I am. I have no clue who I am. And yet, I know that I am. I can experience myself. So that am-ness is not something that goes away. Yeah, it's right here in this moment. Is it— is you, as me, as the people that are listening or will be listening or seeing this, you know, presence is inevitable. Is what the universe is about.

Yeah. And in the book, there's another term that you use called satori. Can you define that for us?

Yes. Well, satori has different meanings. You know, satori is a Japanese word, which is used to point to a moment of awakening, a moment where suddenly, we move out from everything that we think we know about ourselves and reality.. And suddenly there is a revelation of a dimension which is spirit, is not just matter or objects or events or past, present, and future, is beyond time, is beyond space, is beyond, is beyond description. This is one of the basic understanding of the word satori. Then there is a satori, which is called— so this would be like a satori event, is something that can happen to each one of us. And actually, it happens much more often than we think. For example, I don't know, sometimes you look into the eyes of a very young baby, and you suddenly have this experience of complete oneness and spaciousness and emptiness, you know, which is our nature, which is our mind, not completely open to everything that is. Or no, you are listening to fantastic music. And suddenly you disappear as an entity. And there is just the music. And you are that music. Now I see that you have a guitar, you probably know that space, getting completely, you know, in that, you know, one single note at a time and the symphony and the harmony all together. So this is the event Satori. And then there is Satori, which is a specific process, a specific retreat, a specific format that is based on, on a traditional Zen retreat. Which, which was called sesshin. And so it is about 700-800 years old, and as a tradition, and, and that's a particular retreat where people come and they will go through a particular sequence of sessions, which, which usually lasts for 40 minutes each.. And they sit together with the partner in front of each other, having eye contact. And then one person asks the other, tell me who is in. So then the person that has been asked at that point has 5 minutes to explore and go in and look for who is in, or who am I, we use different questions, or what is love, or what is freedom, or what is life, you know.. And then after 5 minutes, usually I or one of my assistants will ring the bells. And we say, thank your partner. So the people thank each other and then change over. So the person that has been communicating will ask the other person the koan that the other person is working with. For example, tell me what love is, or tell me what freedom is. And then the other person has 5 minutes to answer. So this goes back and forth, back and forth. And we work many hours every day together with other meditations. And sometimes we have question and answers and individual interviews until a person has a direct experience. So basically goes into that space of revelation, which is a satori. And at that point, usually that person comes to me, we have an individual interview. And, and then I give them a new koan so they can explore another, another dimension of this immensity that is our existence. Yeah.

So I'm actually trying to lay down a foundation here for people to understand some of the terms we're going to be using. So we talked about, we talked about koan, we talked about Satori. We talked about who am I, or who was in. Another thing I'd like to define before we talk about is like, what is meditation? Meditation, for a lot of people, they just hear the word and their blood pressure goes up. Because they're like, I don't know how to meditate. I can't sit still. This is crazy. I don't want to do this. I can't stand being with my own thoughts. So When you say meditation, what do you mean by meditation?

Okay, first of all, I completely understand because for me, I could not sit still. So when, when I approached meditation, I simply had to realize, well, actually, a certain kind of technique, meditation technique like vipassana or other sitting meditation is not for me. I need movement, I need action. And that's where I started going into martial arts. Because martial arts is, is about being aware, conscious of every single little detail in the movement, refining it, refining it, refining it, refining it, and becoming more and more and more and more involved and present. And at some point, meditation is not a technique. Meditation is something that happens. And actually, the definition of meditation is very simple, is choiceless awareness, which means that I'm simply aware of what is, period. There is no resistance, there is no judgment, there is no rejection. I'm simply aware In this moment, I am aware that I'm speaking. And I am present with my speaking. And I'm aware that you are in front of me, you know, even though very far away. Yeah. And I'm aware also that there is a connection that energetically we are relating to each other. So there are different dimensions of my reality or reality, not mine, of reality, that meditation is about being just aware of it. So in that sense, meditation is, is not the techniques that we use. The techniques are just techniques. And the meditation is something that happens when we move beyond the technique. So when I speak with people that want to meditate, the first thing that I say usually is like, look, there is no right meditation. You need to find your way. Now, of course, the way to find your own specific way of meditating in the present is very personal. So maybe you need to experiment with different techniques until you find something that says, okay, this I like. For some people, for example, running is their meditation. They go into that space of complete openness and complete presence.

That's it.

For some people, it's cooking. You know, when I cook, I'm in meditation. For some people, it's playing music. So meditation is not a technique. The techniques are techniques. Meditation is what happens when the technique goes— is somehow completely embodied and becomes your presence. So then it's not difficult.

Yeah, I love that you said that. And you know, it's interesting, I've been meditating now off and on for probably 20 years. And I've tried different techniques, you know, I've read books, I've downloaded apps, I've done, you know, lots of different things. And then a couple of months ago, there's a guy I work with, and he teaches— it's a form of Transcendental Meditation. His is actually, I guess, even simpler. I've never done TM. But he calls it turning within. And he's like, well, I'm going to give you the technique, but it's not about the technique. And I love what you said about like, everybody's got to find their own way. And I was reading your book, and they were— you were talking about meditation. And I was sitting in my kitchen, and I was just— the sun was shining through the window. And I was having a cup of tea. And I was looking at the tea on the counter. And I'm like, this is meditation.

Yeah.

And, and we, you know, we make it so complicated, we make it so difficult. That it could be anything. You said it could be going for a run if that works for you, or cooking or whatever that thing is. So we need to free people up to find their own way of finding that awareness.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you see, the trap is knowledge. The trap is the idea that I need to know what meditation is. We already know, because naturally, spontaneously, we find ourselves in meditation many times during the day. We are just not aware of it because we are too crowded with ideas about what meditation is supposed to be. So again, we need to clean up all that stuff. And as you say, sometimes you're sitting there with your cup of tea or coffee and and you're completely present. That's meditation. Well, yeah, that's, that's our nature.

I love what you talked about. You compared it to also like athletes being in the zone. Because I think that's something that any of us who have played a sport, you know, can relate to, or anybody that creates. If you, if you write, or if you paint, or if you play music, when you get into that space, where you kind of even forget that you're there, you're just experiencing it.

Yes, exactly. Because you are not there as a separate entity. And that's where— that's, that's the beauty of meditation, that, that, that you that believes to be, to exist in separation from everything, for a moment disappears. Because we don't identify with it. So the I goes, you are there, your presence is there, but the I is gone. And that's a moment usually is very sweet. There is a sweetness, there is a gentleness, there is a naturalness in that just being present.

Yeah, and you talk in the book about like that desire, that desire that we all have to just to not have to have something that we have to do, something we have to achieve, to be worried about the past and trying to change the future or chase the future, to just be. And that seems to be like, that's our innate nature that we kind of want to get back to.

Well, you know, we— okay, there is, there is a reality which has to do with the fact that we exist in a physical body, in a particular embodiment, in a particular society, in a particular family, situation in a particular culture. And of course, we need to deal with it. And as we deal with it, we need to face questions like challenges and goals and directions and time and pressures and stress and all this kind of stuff, responsibility, and so on. And yet, this is only one part. Of existence or our life, which has to do with survival. But what about living? Living is way beyond survival. Living is more like about, okay, who am I? And what am I doing here? How come existence, God, primary awareness, you can call it every way, any way you want, wants exactly me, you, each one of us here in this moment? What is the gift that you bring, that I bring, that any, any individual brings, which has to do with the uniqueness of this embodiment? So to move away from survival means to go towards uniqueness. What is unique about this incarnation? What is unique about you? And you obviously are finding your uniqueness, because that's, that's, that's what you're doing, you know, you are sharing yourself, you know, and you seem to be very happy to do that. And that's a good sign. You know, how do, how do I know when I'm finding my uniqueness? When I start feeling content about the fact that I exist on this planet in this moment, and I can give myself. That's, that's so fulfilling. So the awakening is not only about liberation, it's about fulfillment.

Yeah, yeah.

And that's fundamental to, because that's also the place where we really start honoring each other. In that in that fulfillment. And then desire is like, yes, of course I desire to be who I am. It's such a joy.

Yeah. You also talk about this search to find ourselves and you talk about rebellion that seems to be a part of this search to find yourself. Why would that be?

Well, rebellion is the difference is the gap between wanting to be special and recognizing uniqueness. You see, wanting to be special has to do with comparison, has to do with, okay, I compare myself, you know, to somebody that I feel is less special than me, others that are more special. So I'm on a ladder, I'm in the competition game, you know, I need to prove that I'm special. But when you recognize that actually to play in this game of being special is a killer, is a killer of our own uniqueness, then you become a rebel. You become a rebel. You say, you know what, I'm not going to play this game anymore. I'm not going to try to prove that I'm special, that I'm better than you, that I'm worse than that, that I need approval, to find my own worth and self-value. I am who I am. I am this mystery. I am this search. I am this quest. And I am this potential. And that's my uniqueness. So rebellion, in a way, it's a kind of bridge between the constriction of our structure in the personality, in the, in the, in the in the living within a certain kind of limitations based on our inner judge, on our culture, on our race, on all these things. And the moment we say, okay, I am unique, I am unique. And this is what I am willing to exist for, to live for, to share. So rebellion is a kind of a bridge for me.

Yeah, well, you know, society does create that, that competition and that prove you're special and, and, you know, compares us and ranks us. And I hear even people in spirituality talk about this, you'll even hear people talk about levels in the afterlife and hierarchies. And, you know, a phrase I like to use with people is like, yes, you're unique like everybody else. You know, we're all unique. We're all— but we're all, in a sense, the same in terms of our essence and our value and our worth. And it's— the value that we have is really in our uniqueness and not trying to compare ourselves with others.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. The value is intrinsic to our uniqueness. You don't need to— we don't need to find it. It's already there. Has always been there. Just a question of recognizing it and, and also giving it to yourself.

Yeah.

You know, and not expecting other people to say, oh yeah, you, you are unique, and therefore you are valued. No, wait a minute. I don't need the approval of anybody. I don't need a stamp from anybody. I need to feel it, to sense it in myself, and to honor it.

Yeah. And I know you say that we're already complete. So what is it that you mean by that when you say that we're already complete?

Well, what I— is that in this moment, right in this moment, nothing is missing. I am complete. You are complete. If I am present. Now, of course, if I start comparing with the past and if I start hoping for a particular future, then I don't feel my completeness. Because I am, you know, in a way divided. But if I'm completely here, what is missing in this moment? Nothing. I'm right here with all that I am, you know, all that I am, which is some stuff I might like it, some stuff I might not like it, some stuff I might understand it, some stuff I might not understand it. But all that I am is right here in this moment. And this is the vertical, you know, of the— what, what some, some mystics or philosophers, they call the eternal now. No, this vertical moment, you know, in this vertical moment, everything is right here in this moment. The past is just memory, and the future is just hypothesis, ideas, hopes, right? But not real at all.

Yeah, I think that's such a valuable lesson. Because, you know, we're taught to keep striving, keep seeking, keep trying to be better. And we take that material, capitalistic lesson that has been driven all of us, and we bleed it over into our spirituality. And we say it's the same thing. There's this spirituality that says, we've got to seek, we've got to strive, this has got to be This has got to be hard. We have to earn it.

Absolutely. And then, then enlightenment becomes, becomes the new goal.

Yes, yes.

And then again, then we again create, you know, hierarchies, you know, who is enlightened, more enlightened, and then I'm, my master is the best master, and my awakening, I'm awakened to the same 7 chakras, and all this kind of stuff, you know, like, Oh my God. And to come back to grief. In those moments, all this stuff goes down the drain. All this stuff shows for what it is, just mind, you know, just mind, just, you know, getting, getting ourselves busy with things. Rather than feeling. When grief strikes, you know, there is no, no time, no, no, no energy to waste for what is not essential to who I am in this moment. Yeah, that's one of the most fundamental teaching that we can have. The death— death is a teacher. Because it teaches us about life.

Yeah.

How to be completely alive.

I completely agree. You know, one thing about grief is it does, it strips you down to the essential. You don't have any energy, you don't have any time for things that are unessential. People literally reevaluate everything, including we start to ask ourselves, who am I? And why am I here? Maybe, you know, sometimes people can be 50, 60, 70 years old, it's the first time they've ever asked themselves that question. You know, why, why am I here? And it becomes a journey, it becomes a journey to find out.

It is, it is, and it's a beautiful journey. And you see, it's interesting, because what has been happening on this planet, at least this is in my, in my view, in the last couple of years, you know, with the, with COVID and other things, is that basically, we are obliged to face uncertainty. Nobody, nobody can, can pretend, okay, I'm certain because I'm rich, I'm certain, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna get sick because I am in Italy or in America, not in Africa? No. No, the COVID does not spare anybody, no, can go anywhere. And this is a learning. Learning is okay. How can I live in uncertainty? How can I allow myself to recognize that life is impermanent? And what does it mean to be alive in impermanence? How can I enjoy impermanence rather than fight against it? Yeah, this is a big, big, big part of the journey. The spiritual journey is basically understanding and learning to live in uncertainty. That's it. Because the next moment is unknown. You know, it's unknown to you. It's not happened yet. So how can I know it? Until it happens?

You're right. And, you know, it's a very interesting lesson. For me, I learned it before COVID My daughter passed away suddenly. She was a healthy girl. You're going along through life, and you think you know what's going to happen the next moment. We don't. If you ask someone, they'll say, no, no, I don't know. But we think we do. We pretend that there is no impermanence until something makes us really face it. And as you said, something like COVID, we couldn't say that's only happening to people over there. That's only happening to poor people. That's only happening. It was like, it became the great equalizer. And it became a point where we all had to face uncertainty and the reality of impermanence. Because again, people, we like to pretend that we're going to live forever. You know, we look in the mirror every day, and the mirror tells us we're not, but we just ignore that. We say, well, I'm going to be the exception, I'm going to live forever. But we have these lessons that come along every once in a while, they'll kind of snap us out of it and say, you need to face who you are.

Yes, yes, absolutely. And, you know, we can wait for life to give us a stick on the head, or we can decide, okay, you know, at this point in my life, I really want to face these questions. I really want to, I want to be on a journey where I can find myself, you know, at least, at least once in my life, I can taste myself and say, okay, this is who I am, you know.

Yeah. So I'm curious, what got you, what got you into, into this quest yourself? Was it the martial arts that got you into it?

Well, no, me also, but I mean, it's difficult to pinpoint exactly something. My sense is that since I was very young, I had something in me was, was moving in that direction, you know, wanting to know who I am. But then the real turning point where for the first time I heard myself make a statement about this was when I was 26. And I, 25, 26. And basically, I was at a point in my life where I had been for 10 years, really involved with the revolutionary movement in Italy, starting with the students movement, and then going more, more, you know, really, okay, we want to, I want to change everything. So I was a militant, a political militant for many, many years. And then that thing collapsed. So the revolution was not possible, was clear, you know, and so that part of my life completely collapsed. I finished university. I did my military service that at that time in Italy was obligatory for 13 months. So suddenly, I found myself in a place where, well, what is my life about? No, all my past was finished. And one evening, I was with a friend, and I just heard myself say, you know what, the only thing that matters for me in my life is to find out who I am. And I was surprised myself, because it was, was not a rational something that I had arrived rationally. But the moment that I heard myself saying it was so true, and was so clear, that actually, that became the guiding principle of everything in my life. So from that moment on, it was like, was like magic, you know, because things started arriving, teachers, and information, opportunities, I moved moved away from Italy, and I went to live in Mexico, and I worked there as an anthropologist. I met shamans, I, you know, so everything started aligning with that quest, who am I? And that's, that's how it— and then finally, you know, I became a disciple of Osho. And then I found this Satori process, the retreats, and I started facilitating the retreats. So It's like everything started falling in place. Yeah. And I felt so blessed.

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting, I think, how that happens. It goes back to that, you know, when the, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I think there's like, it's like once we put out to the universe, whatever you want to call it, that we want to go on this journey, then it then things starts to just unfold for us. And then it's just a matter of like, connecting the dots.

Yes, being, being available to the opportunities, you know, that come. Now, sometimes, sometimes very challenging opportunities, you know, like, for example, another time, you know, I was in Italy, I was back in Italy after Mexico and after India, and I was already at this disciple of Osho. And, and at some point, and I was doing good, you know, I was a freelance photographer, I was getting quite well known and famous. I published photo books and did exhibitions. And suddenly it was like, I need to go to Poona, I need to be with Osho, I need to, I need to really go into deeply into that, this search. So I left everything behind. And of course, most people thought that I was completely crazy in doing that, except my best friend, because I had no money. And my best friend said, you know what, you have a couple of $1,000. This is my gift. You do what you need to do. It's like, oh, thank you. And that was it. I moved to India and I was in India for 15 years. And was perfect.

Yeah. So tell me about your time, what your experience with Osho.

Okay, my experience with Osho. Okay, it started in America, it actually started at the ranch in Oregon. In Rajneeshpuram, I went and I took sannyas. And even though I was very resistant, because I wanted to be my own master. So then at some point, I said, well, let's say I can be my own master, but I need help. So I went to America, and I became a senior senior disciple, Osho disciple. And I was there 2 or 3 times because I was going in and out from Italy to America. And then Osho left and went back to India. And then I was living at that time in the south of Italy in a small village. And I, and I thought, well, maybe it's time for me to go to India again, you know, and, and I decided to go to India in '87, beginning of '87. And I, when I was there, we built a dojo where we do martial arts. And, and then Osho gave me the responsibility of being the director of the School of Zen Martial Arts. At the same time, I brought to him a particular picture, which was a picture of a dewdrop on a leaf. In my garden. And he gave me a little challenge. He said, I want you to take a picture of a drop exactly in the moment it starts falling. Which is challenging because the finger is not fast enough.

Right, right.

So I started kind of being in the garden every morning from when before sunrise, so I could see all these drops falling. And then finally, one day I saw it was— I saw that between the leaf and the drop, there is a love affair. They're like two lovers. And the moment that they start separating, they start trembling. And that's the moment where I could click. And I could take But what was really the master wanting from me? That was the question. That was my first. So then I understood that what Osho was pointing to me was like my fear of separation.

Hmm.

So I used all that experience to really understand how I was afraid of separation, and how I would cut off you know, so that I would not have to feel that fear and that pain of separation. So there was a lot of learning, you know, that, and that's what a master is about, you know, he uses every possibility to point the disciple towards a particular part of his or her own unconscious, so that it can become clear, can become obvious. So, and then when I took the picture, I brought it to Osho, Osho said, good. So then now you can start and come and take pictures of me. So that's what I did. I started being one of his photographers. And so this was the— those were my two jobs in the, in the community was like taking pictures of Osho during discourses and also privately, and then teaching martial arts and satori and facilitating other courses. And that went on for 12, 12 years, 14 years until that. At some point, the experience in India was, I felt, was finished. And I moved to Australia.

Okay.

Yes.

Tell me about the name that Osho gave you.

Okay, the name, my full name is Samarpan Avikal. Samarpan means surrender. So that was the first hit on the head. Because to a martial artist, and to us, to surrender was like, okay, you got me, what does it mean to surrender? So that was the first, the first thing that really, really got me going, you know, like, what is surrender? You know, like, because I had a sense of it. But my, I also had a sense that there was also a lot of resistance. So what is the relationship between surrender and resisting? What is what? And the other name is Avikal. And Avikal has two meanings. One meaning is quiet, non-action. And another meaning is one who has come back home. So, you know, I, again, when I got the name Avikal, I was like a tiger, you know, like going up and down my house, like me, non-action, where did minute quiet. No, I am an action person. And then after a few days, something started landing and say, okay, quiet surrender. How can I allow myself to surrender? And at the same time, not effort, not, not making efforts about my life. And something really started relaxing inside. This, this idea that I could explore non-efforting was a revolution. Because personality is all about efforting, is about goals, is about reaching, is about, you know, going somewhere. So that, that, and this is still is my, is my, my path, you know, every day.

Yeah, it's interesting. You mentioned the non-efforting, because as I was mentioning earlier, I've been studying meditation with someone and we talked about how, you know, people tend to hate meditation. And I think it's because there's so much effort that they put into it. And this, this teacher is saying, like, like, no effort, Brian, no effort. And I would say, but what about this? And he would say, because we're doing this part. I said, well, what I'm doing this part technique, am I supposed to be— he's like, you're not supposed to be doing anything. It's a very difficult thing for, for some of us to say, to not effort. It's true.

Because you see, efforting is not about what we do or not do. Effort is about the inner attitude. For example, in this moment, you know, you are breathing and you're not making an effort for breathing. But of course, if you say, okay, now I have to breathe in a particular way, then we start efforting. But that's not necessarily what needs to be happening. You can simply bring your presence and awareness to the fact that, okay, I'm gonna have a little bit of a slower out-breath. But I don't need to go like, okay, this has to be slower. And you know, because that's, that's a mental attitude. So non-effort is about the internal attitude towards who we are and what we do. Not in the doing itself.

Right, right. And when you were talking, you also mentioned, you mentioned resistance. And I know in the book, you talk about acceptance, a lot of teachers tell us that we need to learn acceptance. So what would you say to that, that particular teaching?

Okay. Well, resistance is something that drives a lot the personality. Because basically, what is resistance? Resistance is resistance to what is in this moment. Maybe I don't like something, then I start resisting it, I start rejecting it, start pushing it away. And I start moving into, in this very basic mind movement, resistance, hope, resistance, hope. I reject and resist what is happening, and I hope for something different. So then I am completely caught into like pushing away and projecting myself in the future. But what about here? What about in this moment? So in this moment, I can be aware, okay, there is something which is an attitude of resistance, there is something which is an attitude of hope. And there is me, there is this subjectivity that is aware of all this. All this rejection and hope and resistance are objects in my awareness, in awareness. So then everything that happens becomes a vehicle to go into this presence of pure awareness. That's where resistance little by little starts dissolving. At the same time, resistance is also a resource, because in some moments, We resist something because we feel that that something is not aligned with who you are in this moment. So resistance is also a good, interesting phenomenon in terms of growth. I need to learn how to deal with resistance. So I don't have a judgment about resistance. I simply want to bring awareness to it. When is something that is actually useful to be myself? And when it's simply a habit?

Yeah, that's, I think that's brilliant. Because people sometimes take simple teachings, and they overuse them. And they'll say, well, we should never be resistant to anything. And, and I'm like, well, what about What about injustice? What if someone's getting hurt? Are we supposed to accept that that's just the way that it is? And no, you're right. There's— and, and I love what you said about growth, because it's actually resistance. It's actually pushing against something a lot of times that actually leads to growth.

It's absolutely—

it's that thing about the grief that we go through that actually spurs us to, to grow because it forces us to to create effort that actually strengthens us.

Yes. And for example, children, for children to have something to push against is a fundamental part of their learning and their growing up. If they don't have boundaries, you know, it's very difficult for a child to grow. They need parents who give them boundaries which are healthy, so that the child can learn, okay, I can push against this boundary, you know, and I can grow up like like a little chick in the egg, you know, it needs to break, break the egg. If it doesn't want to break the egg, it's not going to grow up, you know. Right. I don't have any problem with resistance. Resistance is just part of living. And yet, it has to be brought to awareness, to consciousness, so that I know, okay, I'm resisting because I have a habit of resisting. For example, my partner says something that I don't like, and I resist instead of stopping for a moment and listening.

Am I—

is it useful or is not useful? Do I want to take it in? Do I don't need to take it in? It's really about being present. The resistance is just resistance, is not good or bad.

Yeah, yeah, that's— wow, that's great. That's awesome. So as you said, there's a time where we, we should resist, or we might want to resist, might be useful. But just don't do it. Don't do it out of habit. Don't do it just because it's— yeah, to be aware of that. And you, I know you talk about an internal judge in your book. Yes, I find that interesting, because I'm teaching something called positive intelligence. And we talk about the judge that we all have. And we talk about these different saboteurs we have. So when you say internal judge, What does that mean to you?

Well, about 25 years ago, you know, at some point, I was really looking at where do I want to focus my, my teaching and my, my, my understanding, and I could see very clearly in myself and in many people that also have been meditators for a long time, that there is this internal structure of control, which I call the inner judge, which is superego, Freud, or the Zen master call it the barking dog, you know, which is that presence that continuously, constantly, compulsively is judging ourselves and judging everything. So I noticed, okay, that's something that really pulls us back continuously, even when we have a good understanding, good realization, good practice. There is this tendency to go back into the status quo, the past, the established order, you know, internally. And that's actually is the structure, the inner judge. So I focused really on that. What is the judge? How does it work? What are its functions? Do I need it? Do I not need it? And does it help me or does it not help me? And I mean, the most obvious way of looking at the inner judge is by our internal parents. Basically, we internalized our parents when we were children. And our parents gave us all the rules and regulations and admonishments and the rights and wrongs that we grew in and that we bring with ourselves. Now again, are we conscious of it or not? Again, the inner judge is just a structure. It's just, if you want, an app, a software. It was like, no, I can be enslaved by this software, by this app and go all the time, okay, where is my judge? What is right? What is wrong. Or I can say, okay, the job of the, of my parents inside of me is protection, is about giving me ideas, skills, values, and ways to navigate and survive. So they did their job. Because that's parents' job to give us to every child, those tips, yeah, to survive. The question is, okay, now I am a man. Do I always need these tips or not? Most of the time I don't, because they don't align with who I am in this moment. They come from a different generation, from different ways to look at reality. So I need to be able to say, okay, thank you. I don't need it right now. Or yes, I do need it. If you tell me watch the road before crossing the road, yes, I do need it. Why not? But if you tell me watch out, because maybe you are not man enough in this moment with your lover. I don't need that. You know, that's— who cares? You know, that's— love is not about performance. You know, like, so it's really about, again, growing up. Growing up means acknowledging the beauty and the work that the parents have done. Recognizing that I have that capacity, that inner structure of judgment and control, and also recognizing when I don't need it. When it's not necessary.

Yeah.

So that I can actually be free.

Yes, I think that's brilliant. You know, it's interesting, because as I've been doing this teaching that I've been doing, or learning about this system, Positive Intelligence, we talk about the judge, and I wonder about the origins. I think it's parents, I think it's God, what we were taught that God was when we were— for me in Sunday school, it could be teachers, it could be society. Telling us this is the way that you should be. And we internalize all these voices, and we make the mistake of thinking that that's us. And that's why the exercises that you're talking about, you know, who am I, who is in, um, learning, you know, thinking about our identity, uh, because I want to talk about identity and mistakes people make with that. So I know in the second chapter of your book, you, you talk about that. So explain your thoughts on identity.

Well, first of all, one moment of advertisement, because I wrote two books on the inner judge.

Yeah, please.

Freedom to Be Yourself is one, and Without a Mask is another one. Because it's really, I feel that is the most fundamental obstacle that we encounter about being authentic. And about, you know, being who I am. Because the job, the fundamental job of the inner judge is to give us an identity. You are Italian, you are a man, you are cultured, you are ignorant, you are intelligent, you are stupid, you are courageous, you will never have success. Now, all positive and negative elements that create a sense of identity. So we, we delude ourselves, we wake up in the morning and say, okay, I know who I am. Because we attach ourselves to that sense of identity. And that sense of identity is nearly completely defined by our relationship with our inner judge. Now, it's true what you say, the inner judge is a composite, is a composite of parents, teachers, images of God, ideas about what is real and what is not real, society, culture, and all this kind of stuff. So that makes it complicated in some moments, but also very interesting to really see, okay, what is this? Where is this judgment coming from? What is the source of it? How come I am identified with it? And what are the effects of this identification in my day-to-day life? The moment that we start separating from that specific image and that specific ideas about ourselves, then we go into an identity crisis. Because for a moment, we don't know who we are.

Yes.

Now, if I'm not courageous, or if I'm not strong, then who am I? If I lived all my life pretending that I'm always strong? You know, and then, and then, and that's where the question becomes very fundamental, because at that moment, they say, okay, I don't know who I am when I'm weak. Or I don't know when I am who I am, if I allow myself to cry, because A man is not supposed to cry, especially if he's a Sicilian like me. Sicilian, Sicilian, they are good for vendetta, for revenge, not for tears. So it's really, it's really a dance between becoming aware of how I define myself through my past and my identification with the inner judge. And with certain values and certain ideas about reality, and how I don't know. And, and I can ask myself, then who am I if I am not in that way? So they're all linked together.

Yeah, that is, and that is such a freeing journey when you go on it. It's scary. It can be scary, but it can be freeing. I was raised, I mentioned earlier, I was raised as a fundamentalist, you know, Christian. And, you know, that was my identity for a very long time until it started to kind of fall apart for me. And I remember several times as I was going through this process of, we call it deconstruction, right, tearing these things down, where it's, I'm like, well, if I was wrong about that, what else was I wrong about? And where does that lead me? And it It feels like the bottom is completely dropping out when you start stripping these things away. But I can tell people that have gone— that, you know, when you go through the process, it's so worth it, because you always find something else, you know, something more authentic, and you can start separating these things out. And you can, you can choose, you know, a lot of times people feel like, I can't make a choice. I am this, like, like you said, maybe I am Sicilian, I'm a Sicilian man. So therefore I'm a strong brave man. And if that doesn't align with who you are internally, that creates a lot of conflict. And that's the mask you're talking about, right? We have to walk around wearing these masks all the time to pretend that we are what other people expect us to be.

Right. Which means not only internal conflict, but also external conflict, right? Because then I have to prove to everybody that I am strong and blah, blah, blah, and the whole thing, you know, and then, you know, Of course, some people might say, oh, yeah, okay, fine, you're, you're strong. And they project on me that strength, then they expect it from me every moment. And then, you know, or other people can say, okay, you're strong. Okay, let's fight. Like, so it's like, you know, it's, it's a trap. It's a trap. And it's true, in the beginning to work with our inner judge, can be very challenging, and also very painful. Because also, in a way, we need to look at how come I am so loyal to my parents? How come I'm so loyal to my conditioning? You know, what do I get out of it? What is my investment, you know, and that takes takes some, you know, it's really a bit like stripping our skin, you know, it's not just throwing away concepts, it's really like, okay, this is okay, I'm not this anymore. Let me clean it up.

Yeah, it can, it can be very painful. And when you identify with those things, and I've noticed also, like, sometimes if you challenge someone's beliefs, they hold their beliefs so closely that they think the belief is them.

Yes.

And if you challenge your belief, you're challenging their very existence. And they will fight you. They will fight you to the death over, over what is a belief because they think it's, it's who they are.

Yes, yes, absolutely. Well, because that's the— and again, this is a question of identity. No, that's, that's their identity. Which raises the question also, do I need an identity?

Yes, yes.

Because actually, you know, I, unless I need to, an identity as a functional skill that is used for, okay, I go to the bank, and I need to have my identity card, and I need to present myself in a certain way, then I need an identity because it's functional to living in this society. But otherwise, do I need to have an identity in this moment that we are speaking?

No.

Do you need to know? We are just two human beings communicating and sharing who we are. I don't care if you don't know what's your name or my name. Yes, we can call each other with those names. But you know, you could— I could call you Avikal and you could call me Brian. We would still be here and talking with each and communicating.

Yeah, I love the way in the book you, you have the book or the concepts, and then you have people ask questions of themselves, because it's really, this is all a matter of like putting this to the test. Not, it's not conceptual things. You said the koans is not a matter of saying the koan. It's not a matter of answering the koan. It's sitting with it. And when you ask someone the question, Do you need an identity? I think our knee-jerk reaction is, of course I do. But then you challenge that and you say, you know, as you said right now, and as I was reading, I was sitting, I was sitting in a chair having my cup of tea. And I'm like, he's right. Right now, it doesn't matter what my identity is. I am, I am that which is having this experience. And that's all that's important in this moment is just the experience itself. That's really cool when you start to play around with those concepts.

It is. It is. And also we can understand children much better because children don't care about their identity in the very beginning, you know, when they grow up, of course they do. But, you know, in the beginning when they are small, they don't have an identity. They are this open field of experience and wonder. Which is magical, which is beautiful.

Yeah, until we put them in their little boxes, you know, start telling them who they are. And this is how you're supposed to be. This is how you're not supposed to be. This is how our family does things and all those things, which are necessary, you know, societal conditioning, we have to do that. But I think part of our journey here is, is getting back to who we really are. It's like we come here, we take all this baggage, and then We spend the rest of our life stripping it away.

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

Yeah. No, you also define narcissism as like fundamental to like the human condition.

What do you—

what is it you mean by that?

Okay, I was reflecting on narcissism for some time, and it didn't fit with me this idea that narcissism is a kind of psychological personality disorder, you know, it's, it felt that there was more than that, you know. And I understand, you know, that can be extreme and manifest and in ways that are pathological. But at the same time, from a spiritual point of view, I was asking myself, okay, from a spiritual point of view, what is behind that pathology? What is that makes us so interested in looking out and looking at our images and mirroring and wanting mirroring for these specific images? And what, what I come to is that narcissism is basically a belief, a very deep belief that I am not capable of going inside, that I'm not capable to know myself directly, that I need some sort of reflection. And, and, and sometimes it's, it's a, it's a, most of the time is an unconscious belief, because they, we have been stripped of that intelligence that knows how to go in. More than stripped, we lost contact, because we, thanks God, we are not stripped, but we lost contact with that intelligence that says, okay, I can know myself directly by going inside. But also, there is sometimes the unwillingness to go inside, the fear to go inside, the doubt that can I do it? Can I not do it? What are the consequences? So it's— I look at it, and narcissism is a spiritual condition for all of humanity. We are all narcissists until we go and take the step to say, okay, I know how to go out, I know how to give my attention to others. But how about if I give attention to myself? And I look at myself from inside. And that's, that's where the question, who am I? And who is in? They become absolutely basic.

Yeah. Wow, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. I never thought of it that way before. But as you were saying that, thinking about narcissistic people that I know, and there is, they do seem to be devoid of looking within. They they— everything's based upon what's around them. They need, they need love from other people. They can't feel, you know, that within themselves. They, they need approval from other people. They can't feel that within themselves. So I think you're right. I think that's just an extreme of what a lot of us feel. Because we have been— I know in my case, and I know a lot of people's cases, we were not ever taught to go within. We know all the answers are outside. Go go find an expert, go, go to church, listen to the priest, listen to the pastor, listen to, you know, someone else. And it's like, it's really, it's really cool when you find out that the answers you need have been with you all along. It's kind of like the whole, the whole— my favorite movie ever was The Wizard of Oz. And the older I get, the more I realize how profound the wisdom in that movie is.

Yeah, well, you know, it's, it's really— I don't know if I can say unfortunately, because maybe it's not like that. It's part of the process of growing up. The fact that we, we end up having to separate from our true nature, in our, our pure presence. And we need to learn to live in a particular box, in a particular form, in a particular identity, so that we can grow out of that too. This seems to be the process for everybody.

Yeah.

So that's how it is, you know, like, for unfortunately, or even, even in this, unfortunately, is not right, you know, because people have their own time and rhythm. But I feel that the general movement of that happens in consciousness is towards awakening. Yes, we all, we all go towards our potential, though we go, we all tend to evolve towards what is possible, rather than what is allowed, you know, and that's kind of for some people can take many, many, many, many years where other people are lucky, and they have a moment of illumination. You know, it's, it's not in our hands very much, you know, we can only invite ourselves to sit at the table of awakening, you know, and then there is also a lot to do with grace.

Yeah, I agree. I've come to the conclusion that it is the design. It's, it is the process that humans grow through. And I've talked to people who are like, why? I I work in a community where people talk about soul planning, and they say, well, why would I plan something like this? Why would I plan these hardships? And I'll say, well, look at how you've grown. You know, you could take any particular hardship in your life and look at it, and you probably grew out of it. You probably learned something through it. You probably became more resilient. You picked up some knowledge along the way. You use it to inspire you. So if we started thinking of things from a from an eternal being perspective, then it starts to make more sense. All the crap that we go through here, it's like going— it's like going to the gym, you know, it's like we go to the gym and we put ourselves through pain. But by that we grow and everybody grows at their own pace. You know, we shouldn't try not to judge other people for where they are. They are where they are in their journeys. And we've all been there. We've all We've all fallen short, you know, we've all got things to learn. So it's a process that we go through.

Definitely, definitely. And it's, it's an adventure.

It is, you know, I think that's a part of it, too. I think it's an adventure. It's like, there's a, there's a song I listened to, and she likens life to like a game of hide and seek, where it's like, you know, the Creator or Source, whatever you want to call it, kind of hides And we put on these costumes and we come here, we play these roles, and we pretend to forget who we are. And it's a game of discovery. And if you can start to look at it that way, it does become more even enjoyable, even as we're going through the process.

Oh, yeah, it becomes enjoyable and becomes also something that is beautiful to share. And, and, and to feel the contentment of being in the journey.

Yeah, I'm just coming to that, you know, it's interesting. I'm just, I'm hearing people say things like, you know, oh, life can be fun. And, you know, I've been through some pretty dark times. And when you go through that, you say, nah, this, this isn't fun. And your people talk about, well, life is a school. And I think it is, and life is, you know, for this and that. But I think it's also about the experience, the discovery, the unfolding of it, the beauty of that.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's, that's the thrill, you know, in like, in Greek, you know, there is this word which is eros. And eros, we often think in terms of sexuality, but actually the meaning of the word eros is something very different, is the spark of the new. So when we are in the present, the Eros is continuously here. Because the new keeps unfolding, manifesting, you know, and I can be in tune with this erotic quality of life or not. And then when Eros is present, then there is joy, there is excitement, there is curiosity. There is wonder, okay, let's see what happens, you know, like, and there is the relaxation of not knowing. Yeah, not to put pressure on myself that I should know.

Yeah. Well, yeah, that, that living in the moment, that is when everything is new. We can look at everything through, through beginner's eyes, and we can start to see the wonder and the magic around us and, and become a little bit less jaded with, with, you know, the world. So Avikal, we're coming to the end of our time. I really have enjoyed speaking with you. I want you to tell people Remind them again the name of your book. I will tell you, everybody that's listening, I do highly recommend it. I think it'll really open your eyes to some things. There's some great exercises in it. So tell people about your book and where they can find it, where they can find you.

Okay, so the book is Who Is In? Beyond Self-Image. And you can find it on amazon.com, Barnes Noble, on John Hunt Publishing. You know, there are different places. I would say Amazon for most people is probably the easiest. And it goes also in as, as ebook. So it can be hard copy or ebook. And it just came out on the 1st of December. So it's fresh. Yeah. And I think it would be a great, great gift for yourself and for other people for these holidays.

Yeah, absolutely. And where can people find you? And I know you do— is retreats the right word?

Yes. Well, I'm going— I'm launching it in the, in the next couple of weeks, my new personal website. So, and it is avikal.co. This is one of my websites. And the other one, which has already been there for a few years, is Integral Being integralbeing.com. And you find the schedule and the retreats and the work that I offer in different parts of the world.

Awesome. Well, I'll make sure that I put those in the show notes as well. But I always like to get them on air so people can hear it. Again, a great pleasure meeting you today and enjoy the rest of your day. I know it's morning for you. I'm getting ready to go have dinner.

Time for breakfast.

Thanks for being here.

Beautiful, beautiful to be with you. Thanks a lot, my friend.

Hey there, you're still here.

I'm so glad. I'd like to tell you something. I help people who have suffered tragedy to overcome sadness, overwhelm, and depression that can overshadow their lives.

Now, if that's where you are, I know how it feels.

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