How “Fast to Cash” Products Can Help Contractors Make More Money | Karen Sager (Ep. 209)

Every business should do what brought your passion into this business in general, whether it's roofing, siding, windows, whatever it is, make sure you're finding a way to bring a fast cash to product into your business.

So basically you're saying be passionate about making money.

Yes. Heck yeah.

Don't be passionate about your product. Be passionate about making money. You don't have to say it. I'll say it. Hey everybody, Brian here. Welcome to another episode of the Wealthy Contractor Podcast. And so with me today is Karen Sager from Micromesh Gutter Guards. And Karen and I met last year, I think, or maybe the year before. And she has got a great background, runs a great company. And I just thought she would be great to have on the podcast. We have some ideas of what we're going to talk about, but we'll kind of see where it goes. I do know that it is gonna be valuable for you, I promise. So Karen, welcome.

Thank you.

Appreciate you being here. So you have a great background. Let's talk a little bit about that just to kind of set the tone here. Why don't you give us the like quick 2-minute version?

I actually started out as a corporate banker. We're not all, we weren't all bad people. I mostly analyzed risk, but I did it for large US corporates. So I have had experience lending from everybody from the big auto industries to multinationals in oil and gas and telecom. I've just done, I've done and seen a lot. And I also did a stint in middle market banking, more along the lines of what the average wealthy contractor would be with their business relationships with their bank. And then had kids and decided to retire, but retirement didn't last that long. Before I knew it, I was supposed to be just the financier of somebody's business. And before I knew it, go many, many years ahead, and suddenly I am running Micromesh Gutter Guards, and I am now patenting features that we are putting into our products that separate it. So I have had a very varied career, had, uh, quite a few, uh, toolboxes that I filled up over time. And this is now my passion. Been doing this long enough that, that we're always trying to be innovative in our space.

Yeah. So we'll get to micro mesh in a few minutes. But you have a very interesting then relationship with money.

Oh, yes. Yes. Without a doubt. Just in terms of the sense that you have to be careful with what you're going to make. And the average person that goes into a business like this doesn't go in thinking my top priority is keeping the— is not just keeping the lights on and running something out of my house, but building something that actually can grow and expand. And, you know, a lot of people get involved just saying, I just have to do what the next guy next to me is doing, and then not thinking about the fact that that guy can barely keep the lights on and is just, you know, getting by. It's all about making sure that what you're doing is actually, one, giving you a decent living, two, making sure there's profit so that you can reinvest in your business. So charging the right price and offering the right service that goes along with that price tag that you're about to put in front of somebody comes with a great story, comes with a great product, comes with a great hook, and comes with a great offer. So all of those things come together. So from our perspective, it's always about training the, training the contractors that we would work with on getting those margins, especially at the gross profit level, because that's where we can control things the most, setting those numbers up so that it really makes sense. A lot of the really big guys, they've got it dialed in. But, you know, you go down a level or two and just from what I've seen talking to the, the type of contractor that we normally talk to, there's a lot of room for improvement there. And that's a place where we like to really kind of shine and help and kind of use some of that banking background.

Yeah. And, you know, gross margin is a key driver of profitability in this business. And it really is shocking how many people don't understand what gross gross margin is, how to calculate it, how to get it where it needs to be. Any thoughts on that, on gross margin?

So your gross profit margin really has to be the things that go into your basic cost. There's a lot of things that are your fixed costs, so you don't want that there, but it's the cost of your product. It's a cost of your labor. And generally that's it. Just the things that go into the things that go into the price that you're charging for an item. A lot of the largest guys will take that number and back into it by dividing by 4 and marking it up by 4 times to get into the 75, 70-plus percent margin when you then do the numbers backwards. We happen to be in, in a place where when you sell a, a premium product and a premium product that can differentiate itself, you can kind of take that off the table and you can pay what the— you can, you can charge what the market will because nobody else can get something like X from somebody like you. So from our perspective, when you just sell a roof shingle, for example, and you go to the supply house like everybody else and you're buying shingles from them, how is that roof that you're selling? I know you, you can be all the— there's tiers in the, in the roofing business, so you can get up to be a high-tiered roofer, but how are you distinguishing your business from everybody else. So sometimes it's not just the gross profit margin, but again, that story, that hook, that, that offer that ultimately wind up on the table in front of the homeowner that can set you apart from everybody else. Because we're an industry that often people commoditize, right? In my case, gutters are a commodity because anybody, you know, it seems like anybody has gutters next to their name. That's fine. Most of that business is typically subbed out, and you probably have a great relationship with that subcontractor. But then you go to something that separates the business apart, not a want product, but a need product. So that's where you get the opportunity to say, okay, gutters are the commodity, but gutter guards, that's where somebody goes, I'm not going up there anymore. I'm not paying for somebody to do that, where you really get to separate yourself apart from everybody else. Or in your roof shingle, it's that, you know, that extra feature in the roof shingle. You go to a different, a slightly different roof shingle, or you just add in other features that make it a roofing system as opposed to—

Yeah, and I'm glad you said that because we can do this with any product. This is something that my best clients all do. And my buddy John Anglis says, look, if you've got, if you're selling a $15,000 roof, let's say, you better tell a $25,000 story. And how do you tell a $25,000 story? Well, you're open and honest. You educate the consumer. You're— because you're right, it's commoditized. The gutter is the gutter. The window is the window. Roof is a roof. What makes it different? And the difference a lot of times is just in how it's presented. How are, how are some people able to get a, just using roofing as an example, $1,000 a square, $1,200 a square, where others can't even get $400 a square for the exact same product? Something's different. It's the exact same product. Something's different. And it's generally, it's gonna be in, in the story and in the delivery of that story. Of course, the value has to be there too. And if you do the job right, again, I'm going to use roofing because it's such a simple product to use, is that if you're, if you do the job right, then the value is not in the $400 range. It's definitely going to be in the $1,000 range because what do people want? They want peace of mind. They want somebody that's going to show up on time, do the job right the first time and be there in case there are any issues. And what happens is a lot of companies don't do a good job of telling that, that story.

I was just gonna say, and where does the roof start and where does it end? You know, suddenly your roof can start at the ridge vent and you may have features in the ridge vent that separate you. You may find that you live in a very either humid area or shady area where If you added extra copper trim underneath the ridge vent, you keep that roof from building up issues of moss on or lichen on the roof. You can take that all the way down to the front lip of the gutter and suddenly every part of that is the roof. And it's a differentiator.

Yeah. You know, and then one of the things is getting into product differentiation like what you do. Where it's like, okay, now, you know, I always say, say to people, because when they talk about the product, I always tell people, look, we're not selling iPhones. You know, it's not like anybody's got anything new and different and exciting. Now you're going to say, well, but my product is new and exciting and it's different. And it's true to a degree. But we could also find those things within creating systems like what you said, a roofing system, a window system, a bath system, a gutter system, a gutter guard system. And now all of a sudden, now you've got more value there because it's a quote-unquote system.

Right. So, so much of that is true. You just showing up and that's where you go away from the commodity, right? Just having coming out there and say measuring. And I know you guys have done this at your events where, you know, your people have moved away from the pencil and the piece of paper and the taillight warranty.

Yeah.

You have to you have to tell a story because you can never judge a customer and know in advance what's going to be important to them. They are looking for somebody that's not going to judge them when you're out at their house. They want to know that you are thinking about them first and foremost. And that may be that little difference where you're like, nobody thought to tell me this. Nobody thought to say, you know, you really should do X around your chimney or Y around a bay window. Whatever it is, those little things make people go, oh, this person's thinking about me first and foremost. Secondly, that, you know, you got to tell your story about why they had you out in the first place. You're focusing on that as part of your messaging because they don't want to hear necessarily your whole presentation unless it tailors into the fact that you're also speaking to that from where they're coming from, right?

Yeah. And that's doing a good needs assessment, asking questions. And this is You know, and this is kind of the thing, if we could, we could almost have the Unwealthy Contractor or the Not Wealthy Contractor podcast. And the not wealthy contractor is the contractor that's there. Number one, I don't take anything away from people and I don't talk in judgment or criticism or none of that. My whole goal is to help everyone get better. But there are some of you out there that are doing things that are preventing you from making money. One of those things is scheduling yourself or your salespeople for 4 or 5 leads a day and going out there and looking and saying, okay, this person called about a roof. All right, let me go up, look at the roof, you know, take some notes, go back to the office, type it up on the computer, get a price, and then email them an estimate. And there are people out there doing this today. And it's when I, when they hear me say, stop it, don't ever do it again, starting today, they're like shocked. Well, what do you mean? How else would we do it? Well, first off, you got to ask them, well, why am I here? What's the problem? Why now? And when you, like you said, I mean, when you start to understand what it is, what, why am I here? What is the need? Why all of a sudden is this important now? And then you start to build on that and present to them in a way that says, okay, here's how we're going to address all of your needs and concerns and wants, whatever it is. And then we, present that, we educate them, and then at the end of that, instead of running away and going back to the office and doing the work and emailing an estimate hoping that somebody's gonna buy, we actually ask them for the order right then and there. And it's, it's shocking to me how many people still don't do this, and they, and they're running like, they're running like mad people, and it's a much more complicated way of not making money. It's like, that's the person that's exhausted at the end of the day, get home at 8 o'clock at night, they've missed all of their kids' stuff. And they're exhausted. And they don't want to hear anything from their spouse or partner. And they're just tired. And they want to go sit in front of the TV and just veg out, which that was me. I'm guilty of that. I did that. And what they don't realize is they're making it really, really hard on themselves by not understanding these, some of these, these principles. So interesting. We started talking about gross margin. Gross margin is really dedicated, really driver profitability. Gross margin also dictates price. Price dictates whether or how you're going to sell it. So if you want to sell it, you know, high prices, which we all need to in order to make any money in this business, we have to sell value. So we covered all of that. One of the things, let's talk about this. So One of the things that we also talk a lot about is how quick do you make money and how much money do you make per day? And this is also something that a lot of contractors don't think about, but the business people that you and I deal with, they think about this stuff every single day. How can I bring in cash faster? And then how do I make more money per day? Per day. So let's give some context and then we can talk a little bit about fast to cash. Which you are an expert in, and I love that. I don't know if you made that up or not, but I'm going to give— I give you credit for that all the time— is Karen says fast to cash.

Fast to cash.

And so we're going to tell you all in a minute what, what she means by that. But let's tell you what it's not. Okay. So I deal with some design-build people and they know me by now. They've listened to the podcast. They know I think it's the worst business in the world. Sorry. We need you guys desperately out there, but it's a horrible business. So you sell a job for $200,000. It could be an addition, it could be a high-end kitchen, it could be a whole home renovation, whatever. $200,000. How long does that job take, you ask people? Well, it's going to take 3 months. All right. 90 plus. But then we've got— let's take weekends out. Let's just assume that we don't. And this is fast too. I mean, that would be 90 days, 3 months on a $200,000 job. That's fast. But let's give it to them. Okay, let's say it's 60 days and we just get out our calculator and we say $200,000 divided by 60 days, that's $3,333 per day. Well, what's your gross margin on that? Well, in design-build, gross margin sometimes is in the 30s, like, and that's like if they're really pushing it. So if it's times, let's say 0.3, that's $1,000 a day. So you've sent out a crew to bring in $1,000 a day. Now let's contrast that with, say, a, a roofing— let's go back to our roofing example, or we can do windows. So let's say it's a $15,000 job at a 60% gross margin. $9,000 gross profit. And how long does that job take? A day, maybe two. So we have $1,000 a day on the design-build side. We have $9,000 potentially, $4,500 potentially windows, roofing, one-day bath falls into that. And so these are some of the things that we look at is how much money are we actually bringing in per day? And when we look, when we do this kind of math, it's like, whoa, one thing really outweighs the other thing. So with that as our basis, explain to us what is fast to cash? Because obviously we want to get that money in as quickly as possible.

Can I add a couple more variables to your equation?

Please do.

Okay. So variable number 1 is contract signing. To install. So sometimes you're at the mercy of the supplier, and thank God COVID is well behind us and supply chains have improved a lot. But nonetheless, there is a period of time that it takes you either to pull permits or just get supplies in and be ready for those jobs. From what I've seen so far, roofing is the fastest, and I would say that the 3 weeks to get a roof done from contract to roof install, That's, God bless, that's great. That's one, you're doing it within a month cycle, which is, you know, if you're financing things on your credit card or whatever it is, you're within that month. Great. At least a portion of that is always covered. Then let's take the number of people it takes to do a job. If you look at roofing and you try to do a 1-day roof, you're going out with 6 to 8 guys. If you're doing windows, it's probably a 1-day window job and maybe you need 1 to 2 guys. So what's the cost per employee per day? And what are— how much money are they generating for you? Because suddenly that $15,000 window job, whichever it is, is probably more for a roof, but that has got to get broken up amongst the number of people and the cost of that person to you. I.e., roofers have much higher workers' comp than somebody installing windows. Then my third variable there is going to be what do you need to keep on hand? So if you're truly in the one-day bath business and you are literally— it's trying to get from installing a contract to getting it installed after the rescission period. One, you're limiting your customers what they can buy because you're going to make it more of a package. But two, you have to keep inventory, like very expensive inventory, on your floor. So all of those things to keep in mind when looking at this. So, so fast to cash. When you could have a small number of people installing, can do it very quickly with low inventory, and you can get to multiple jobs a day, 2 to 3, if you build this into enough of a process, is really where fast to cash makes your just mind go, whoo. Just because I want to use simple round numbers, but let's say the average gutter job and gutter guard job. Let me be specific.

Before you get into that, I want to do one disclaimer. Okay, because I generally, generally on the podcast, we don't talk, we don't go deep into specific products. Oh, but no, no, no, no, but hold on a minute. But I asked you to come here because of this conversation, because I think the conversation is very valuable. Now, in full disclosure, though, I want to, I just want to be transparent with the audience, is that Karen does, it is a manufacturer of a product. We, I I generally don't have that on the podcast. However, in this case, I think Karen is just wicked smart and any chance I have to have a conversation with her, I think is great. And I've wanted to have this conversation recorded for a long time. Now she is, she does sell a product and some of you may be interested in the product and we'll let you know how to get the product. But I also want you to hear the thinking that's going behind the whole thing. As well. So I just feel like I gotta— Karen, I'm sorry to interrupt, but I just feel like I had to put in that disclaimer because I don't want people to think that this is a commercial for Micromesh. It's going to be a little bit of a commercial, but we're really— what we're really talking about here is how to make more money in your business.

Okay, so let me even give you an example of another type of product that's becoming more and more popular. So it's not necessarily just behind it.

No, use it, use it on your product. I'm fine with that.

Just here.

But give it a go. But do the other one too, just so that we can have some.

Right. So there are— it's becoming more and more popular to maintain roof shingles longer, which is those spray-on oils, the soybean oil that extend the life of a roof. That is another product that's one day fast to cash. So it fits into that same model and high margin. So those are the two that that I can really think of quite quickly.

Yeah. Well, there's another one. There's another one too, when it's sold properly, is really good. And that I'm seeing is like the garage floor coating business.

Oh yes, absolutely.

That thing too is like sell it today, install it tomorrow. My buddy Brian Elias, who you know, 1-800— formerly 1-800-HANSEY, now Reflor. He's doing this in the flooring business. So, but you know, he's got inventory and he stocks inventory, but he's selling his inventory. So he's selling today and installing tomorrow. Or the next day. So there's a number of things out there that fit within this fast-to-cash model, if you will. Do we, should we call it a model? Fast-cash model?

Yeah, I think so. And I, at a minimum, let me just say that every business should do what you, you, but what brought your passion into this business in, in, in general, whether it's roofing, siding, windows, whatever it is, God bless, that's great. Make sure your business though, or you're finding a way to bring a fast cash to product into your business.

So basically you're saying be passionate about making money too?

Yes. Heck yeah.

Don't be passionate about your product. Be passionate about making money.

Yes, you should. I'll say it.

You don't have to say it. I'll say it. Let's be passionate about making money.

You are going to offer a fantastic service. You are there. You don't have to feel bad about this. This is you. Giving something to someone to make their lives better. There is a certain—

That's right. Absolutely. So customer is the, the key.

That being said, having something that you can install fast and do it regularly because that regular thing brings back cash in your business for everything else. So let's— everybody tends to concentrate on high-ticket items. They sound great, but they don't necessarily get installed fast. And the math that you just showed just proves that if you could take that same thing and kind of take something that doesn't require a lot of inventory, doesn't require a lot of people, and you can see here costs are coming out, costs are coming out, and you can, you can get multiple things done in a day, not necessarily with the same team that you're using to do your higher ticket stuff, but with a smaller team that can just do this. You can have a product. Let's— I'm just going to use round numbers of, say, $5,000. Do 2 to 3 of them a day, suddenly that's $15,000.

Why don't you give actual numbers? If you don't, can you share actual numbers on your product just as an example?

I would say it depends because I have 3 different ones. So it depends on where you're going to price this.

Just say average. Just use an average as an example. Gutter Guard, and it can be done as an addition to a roofing project as an add-on, or it could be a standalone product.

Right. Okay. So let's say, let's say about a $4,000 job.

$4,000. Okay.

Yeah. So 2 to 3 $4,000 jobs a day is $12,000-ish. You are looking at that a day. And if you said it took a day or two to do windows or roofs at $15,000 up to say $30,000, a 2-day roof, you'd be making $15,000 a day if it was a $30,000 job. You probably need 6 to 8 guys to do that versus the 2 you can churn through. But you, it takes you 3 weeks to go from contract signing to getting that roof actually installed. Just look at the, that little, I call it the little engine that could, that little engine that could, if you can catch those jobs. And by the way, you don't, you can one, add it on to every roof. So part of your business comes with every roofing job, siding job, because it's the value-added thing to that, that, you know, that separator from you, from everybody else in offering a system rather than just a shingle or whatever, the piece of siding. Now you get to take that whole thing and just make it move fast.

Yeah, let's break down. Okay, but you said average $4,000. Let's break that down. Material cost is about how much of the $4,000?

Gross profit with just typically gross profit is in the low 80s without labor.

Okay. Add in labor.

Add in labor, you're in the low 70s.

Okay. 70. Let's go 70.

Yeah, let's say 70.

Let's go 70. Okay. So on a $4,000 job, that's $2,800 after material and labor. And you can do 2 of those in a day.

Yep. And you're gonna be smart about it. You're gonna do your best to not just go out and cross town. You're gonna try to stack them in an area so you're being efficient so you can get 2 in a day. But do that 3 times a week. One, if your sales team is used to selling longer sales, you could have them— that group of people have one more job for the hour-long sales pitch. Versus the 3-hour long sales pitch. Suddenly that's a little bit extra in their pocket that they can get faster because they've sold on Monday, they're installing on Thursday, and a little piece of more money is coming into their pocket for them. Same thing with the installers. The installers are turning these jobs fast. If your business is large enough to have, say, a warranty crew or somebody that goes out to do—

service crew—

serve some sort of service crew, right? If they're not out every day, they could be trained on doing the installs and that's more money for them.

Or they do one, or they do one of these a day and they do their service calls in the afternoon.

Exactly.

But, but my, but the point here, so if it's a $4,000 job, you've got a, call it a $400 sales expense to get it. So your 28 now becomes 24. And I'd really like, how much can you spend in marketing to buy this customer. I mean, if I'm going to make— if I'm at $2,400 after labor, material, and commissions, and this is like an add-on product, I mean, I'll spend 20% of the $4,000 to get this customer. So I got a pretty hefty marketing budget if it's an add-on. Now, if I'm doing it as a standalone, I could still probably push 15%. On this, maybe even a little bit more because the margin is so high, because the margin is so high. And this is the— let's go back now to the beginning. So back to the beginning, and we'll wrap up with this, is that it's really all about how much gross margin is being contributed to your business on a daily basis. After gross margin, so you've got your material and labor, that gives you your gross margin. Now we're getting into the profitability conversation, but I think it's good. How does this drive everything? The next cost you have is your sales cost, generally 10%. Then you've got your marketing costs and people are all across the board, you know, depending on the type of business that you're in. I mean, I have clients that are in the 18% range, but I have also clients that are in the 5% range. It just depends on the product you're selling, the market you're in, and how big your company is. Typically, the bigger the company, the higher your marketing expenses is. And so if you've got an 18% marketing cost, and you're running a 34% gross margin, you're screwed, you're losing money, you're not making any money, even at 10%, you're not going to make any money, because now your next number is overhead. Overhead, we typically benchmark at about 20%. So if you're, say, a $3 million company, you got $600,000 or so in overhead, that's production overhead, sales overhead, and admin overhead. So that's 50 grand a month just in overhead before you even sell a single job. And so those are the numbers. And then everything, what's left over is your profitability. And so the higher the gross margin is, the more you can spend on marketing, the better people we can hire, you know, that goes into our overhead and the more profit we're gonna have left over. And then you add in the Faster you can do it.

Yeah, the faster you could do it, faster you could do it. We have this little calculator that we build out for people and we show them if you could own as a starting point getting into this business because it's a great starting point, but it only gets to the tip of the iceberg. If you could only sell 20 to 30% of your existing customers on it or opportunities on a gutter guard because sometimes they aren't ready for the price tag of thing one. But if you do a great job on something smaller where people— they say that people just open up their wallets at this price point or under $5,000, that is a great place to show how great your work is, what products you work with, and then you have the ability to stay in touch with them. The next job that they do, who are they going to want to work with? It's— it should be you.

Yeah. And I love the add-on. Thing. And I always like going back to past customers because they gave you money once. They're more than likely to give you money again if you do the right things, if you build a relationship with them, not just show up 2 years later and say, oh, hi, it's me, remember me? It's time to give me money again. No, no, no, we got to build that. We got to build a relationship along the way. And then when we do say, hey, we've got this exciting new product, now they're more likely to say, oh, that's interesting. Let me give this new product a try. And you know, I think with what's potentially gonna happen this year with the presidential election and that so much air getting sucked out of the room and so much uncertainty, I really think we need our past customers more than ever. And I think that we've got to maximize every single opportunity that we are in front of. Meaning if we are in the roofing business, we're already there. We're already touching the roof. The gutters are right there. They're right there. Right on. 20 to 30% of the people are gonna take it. We just know that it's an upsell. Yeah. 20 to 30% of people always, almost always will take an upsell. You can, it's, it's, it's like clockwork. It's something built into our human nature, I think. The problem is, is that we don't ask. We don't ask for the upsell. We're so happy they said yes to this sale that we're not even— it's like, oh, I don't want to mess this up by adding something else to it. Well, put it in front of them. Let them tell you no. 20%— if 20% of them took it, if you did, if you're a roofing company that does $4 million a year, let's see, you do 300 jobs a year and 20% of the people took you up on it. That's 60 times $4,000, $240,000. But that $240,000 is at, say, a 70% times 0.7, it's $168,000 of extra gross profit. That buys—

kind of offsets that 30 to 40% gross profit on the shingles, right?

Yeah. But it also— how much more does $168,000 buy you? You know, you can buy more marketing with it. You can hire that person you've been waiting to hire. And then you could do it as, hey, now we can go back to our past customers and we could say, hey, we've got this incredible new product. We want to, you know, give you a chance before we go to market with it. And you'll have your past— you've got 1,000, 2,000 past customers. This is something to put in front of them. And so I think these are the— people need to start thinking along the lines of, again, especially in years like this, where there's so much going on, there's so much distraction, and there's so much confusion, is how do we maximize the opportunities that are in front of us right now? And this is a great, great thing. You know, Micromesh gutter guards. By the way, where do people find you?

Literally micromeshgutterguards.com.

Micromesh. And then if they fill out the form and they're interested, are they talking to you or are they talking to somebody else?

They will probably talk to me. In fact, we'll give you some sort of thing that— so that, that I know they came from Wealthy Contractor and you will make sure you talk to me. That's for sure.

Cool. By the way, I make no money on this whatsoever. I'm just— I believe in her first. And then I believe in her product, but I also believe in you most of all. And I believe in you and I want you to make money. And look, this may be something good for you. Maybe one of the other things that we talked about would be good for you. But the, again, the idea here is how do we increase our gross margin? How do we make more money in our businesses? And this is just I think one of those strategies that just about anybody can do. It's simple. You've already got a base of customers, exploit that base of customers. And then also you've got all the new people you're going to go talk to.

It's another way that don't never walk out with trying to get some level of conversion, right? If it can't be $30,000 that day, maybe it could be $5,000. Don't let an opportunity pass you by for just lack of asking a simple question when you, when nobody would behoove you, they would behoove you from looking up and taking a look and going, what's going on right up there? Right.

I'm going to leave it at that. Can't say it better than that. Karen, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate you. To everybody listening, hopefully this was valuable. We talked about a lot of numbers. We did a lot of math, but this business is math. It's economics. It's understanding money math. And me and Karen just did half an hour or 40 minutes worth of money math. So hopefully this was helpful. We'll put the link for Micro Mesh Gutter Guards in the show notes. Karen, thank you again. And to everybody listening, until next time, this is Brian Kaskavalciyan, and this is the Wealthy Contractor Podcast.