Want Better Leads? A New Fail-Proof Strategy for Contractors | Chris Behan & Natalie Russo (Ep. 216)

How does the small company compete against these bigger guys that are much more sophisticated?

I think that there's an ability to compete for any company at really any level. When you're a smaller company, you really focused on your brand story. You know, we're a small company, we're local to the area. There are whole groups of people that want that small company, and then there's other groups of people that want to work with those larger style companies.

All right, everybody, welcome to another episode of the Wealthy Contractor Podcast. This is Brian Kaskavalciyan. So the big, big conversation right now in the dead middle of summer— we're recording this in the middle of July— is leads, leads, leads, leads. And so what I thought I would do on this episode is bring in two absolute phenomenal experts in the area of leads. And between the two of them, they have probably helped create more leads than anybody I know of in this industry. So first up, we've got Natalie Russo, and with Natalie is my good friend Chris Beahn. I'll talk about Chris real quick because I know Chris very well. We go back probably, what, 12, at least 12 years. Chris, uh, started and built probably the largest and probably most successful Internet marketing company in the home improvement industry. He exited from there a few years ago and actually is now coming back into the space, the internet marketing space, just because he is so damn good at it. And Natalie works with Chris, but I'm, I'm going to let Natalie, why don't you give your background? I can give Chris's background. I, you know, I think the world of Chris, but let's talk about you. Give us the 2-minute version of your, of your background, and then let's talk about what the hell is going on out there right now with leads.

So I am Natalie Russo. I've been in the PPC paid search space for at least the last 10 years. I don't want to say more because that just makes me feel old. Have done a lot of different things in this area from big to small. So run a lot of enterprise type of activation for, for paid search. So that is inclusive of lead generation as well as anything from a shopping experience. So have a lot of ideation in terms of how to get a lot of traffic to a lot of these enterprise clients. So one of the things that I'm kind of working through now actually with Chris is kind of going back to where I have worked in the past, which is with those home improvement type of clients, really looking at what we have learned from an enterprise level and really trying to understand how do we really start to make bigger improvements in terms of lead quality for our home improvement spaces. So looking more on a regional and local scale and how do we take those enterprise type strategies and make them work for, for those smaller companies as well.

Okay, you're being modest. Define enterprise for us. I, I, when people say enterprise, I kind of have an idea of what it means, but I want to hear it from you. What does enterprise mean to you?

So enterprise for me, whenever I looked at definition of my clients, are they international? Are they US but spending multi-millions in a month? So it really depends on the type of client and what we're really trying to scale for them. But have definitely worked on the scale of spending $6 million a month to get leads for homeschooling to kind of selling internationally for video cameras and security systems. So I have run the gamut on enterprise there.

So yeah, so if somebody knows about paid search, probably you.

Yep. I've, I've kind of covered a little bit. You could say.

Cool.

She's being modest. Alright. So let's talk about what is going on out there with leads.

I think when we look at the industry over time, we all experienced kind of that huge lift during COVID And, and what was so unique about COVID is that we had all of this extra search volume. So you had a lot of extra people online in Google. Looking for home improvement projects, but you had less competition. And that hasn't happened in a very, very long time. So during the kind of the COVID years, all of the, the home improvement companies got kind of fat and happy because they were getting a lot of leads at a very low cost. Now the flip is kind of true where we're seeing less volume from a search perspective and more competition. So when you look at that scenario, especially from a paid side, and Natalie could speak more to this, is that you end up getting kind of less leads at a higher cost. So what we see is we see the large successful home improvement companies beginning to kind of pivot their thought process a little bit and thinking, well, it's hard to affect volume of search from a digital perspective. So I have to do a better job on the conversion of the traffic that I'm already seeing. I have to do a better job with data analytics, with importing data from different platforms to make sure that we're targeting people correctly. So I think what we're gonna see, and Natalie can certainly speak more to this, is that is, is a shift into efficiency and into testing and the speed, which is something that we should probably talk about on this call as well. Because all of those things are kind of just inexorably linked. Success and conversion tracking and CRO, conversion rate optimization, and being smarter with your paid programs is the direction that the industry is pushing into.

So Chris, word efficiency. An episode I released recently is for, for lack of, it wasn't called this, but it was the, the, the podcast was called the COVID boom is over. That was the code name for us. And that was the first thing I said in the recording of it. We didn't call it that though. But anyway, in that episode, I talked about efficiency that today it's all about lead efficiency. Can you talk a little bit more about about that, because there has never been— I mean, look, you and I know this business as our friend Vince Nardo said, calls it BC, before COVID You and I know it very well. A lot of people don't remember what the hell this business was like before COVID So can you talk a little about, about what you mean by efficiency?

Yeah, and it's not like a very sexy word or anything like that, but it is something that we're all trying to reach. So when you look at your digital marketing initiatives, you need to look at them in kind of a blended sense. And we have to remove all of our own thought, all of our own ego, where we want to be ranked and where the position all of, of all of it is. And I'll give kind of two examples of that. The first would be a paid example. And Natalie and I have worked together for a very long time. And you have a lot of business owners that are like, I want to be in the number one position no matter what. That's where it is. I, it's absolutely gotta be in the number one spot. Well, in many cases, The number 2 spot will deliver you the same or almost the same amount of leads at a notably lower cost. So you have to look at your campaigns and, and be efficient with how you roll your campaigns out. You don't necessarily have to step into spending all of your budget in month 1. You look for opportunities within the search cup, within search to identify keywords, ad copy, conversion strategies that ultimately work better rather than just taking kind of a a large shotgun approach or a bully approach to it and pouring more cash into it than you need to. I also think efficiency speaks to balance. And to me, balance is the balance between paid initiative programs, you know, Google, you know, Facebook ads, Google paid media, or paid— or Google Ads is what they're calling it now— and search engine optimization. The search engine optimization or the free side of search deliver the same amount of leads that it delivered 10 years ago? No, it doesn't. Does it still deliver a lot of leads at an extremely affordable price? 100%. Like, if you go back and we look at Vince Nardo from Reborn Cabinets, his example again, his lead cost from an organic perspective is measured less in dollars, in $2, $3, $4, $5. So when you take those organic leads that come in to the tune of a few hundred a month, And then you balance them out with your other paid initiatives. You end up with a marketing cost that is just much more palatable than if you were only doing paid, or if you were only doing organic, if you were only doing TV, radio, whatever it might be. So we encourage people to kind of look at the ecosystem of marketing that they've created and make decisions based off of that entire system of where to pull and pull, pull and, and kind of push on these different levers that they have available to them.

Yeah, interesting, because efficiency also goes to, well, what happens when you actually now get the lead and you quote unquote own the lead and take that through the process? But let's not talk— we won't be talking about that here. But it's, it's interesting how much there is efficiency while you're making the lead and then after you get the lead. Natalie, let's talk about data. So we know as marketers, we know how critically important it is to identify who our customers are. And there's so many, I mean, look, I, I have caveman ways of doing it. One of the things that I always tell my clients is one of the best things you could do is take every customer you've ever worked with, map them, and that gives you a data point. It gives you a data point of understanding at least where they live. But when it comes to digital online marketing, data goes way, way, way, way, way beyond that. So can we talk a little bit about, about that?

Absolutely. So I think this kind of ties in really well from an efficiency standpoint as well as we're kind of looking at accounts as we're auditing accounts, trying to understand where we can strategize and make things a little bit more efficient for clients. One of the things that we're seeing over time is that we're actually— the raw CPL is kind of maintaining the same kind of cost. However, we're not seeing that raw lead turn into something more. We're just getting a cheaper raw lead that's coming through. So whenever we're talking about a cost going up from a lead perspective, we're maybe not talking about that initial touchpoint, that, that first lead that comes in. We're talking about the down the line, what's that ROI of your total marketing business? So how do we, how do we start looking at these accounts and saying like, hey, okay, we're seeing the CPLs either maintaining or creating some efficiency. So what's happening from, from this lead to what's happening from an overall conversion for a client? There has been a lot of changes in the Google Ads ecosystem from a keyword perspective, especially, and if we get a little bit technical from a match type perspective, we're not seeing the same kind of queries come in as we did before. So how do we start to change our way of thinking in terms of, all right, even though we're seeing this very efficient raw lead come through with these very broad type of keywords coming in, we need to understand how that lead initial touchpoint coming through is going to be converting all the way through. So how do we get into better bid strategy optimizations, whether that be more like strategic call type of tracking instead of just counting every type of call that's coming through. Let's actually use AI to understand if that touchpoint actually scheduled an appointment and optimizing a little bit further down the line versus I just called or I just submitted a form. How do we look into our CRMs and say, okay, this person submitted a lead, actually converted into an appointment, and then actually had a fulfilled overall service? So we have those tools in place that we can be more strategic. We can be importing information into our Google ad system or whatever kind of marketing system that we're working with to better optimize campaigns to not maybe just get a really efficient raw lead, but we're actually following that customer journey so that we're able to optimize better.

Yeah, optimizing to the conversion is, is critical at this point. So like, I mean, to her point is most agencies when they deliver a lead, they send you a report and they're like, look, we got you 300 leads last month. And then they, the home improvement company's thinking, well, half of them were service calls or half of them were salespeople trying to call me. And that's just a sign that your agency isn't digging deep enough. I mean, Natalie has programs in place that even our phone calls get listened to by AI bots and they identify, well, this person is looking for service and this person was, is a salesperson trying to solicit that organization for their own business. So how do you make marketing decisions when the agency comes to you and says, we gave you 300 leads with absolutely no context as to the quality of those leads or if they're even leads to begin with?

Okay, so the first place I go to is, wow, this stuff sounds really complicated. And obviously, I mean, look, you guys provide these services. I don't know if we mentioned that or not, but Chris's new company is called TruVolve. Natalie works, works with Chris. I'm also involved, just in full disclosure, I'm also involved in, in the company with them. Much of this stuff is, should be done by your internet marketing company, whoever you are working with. And so how does somebody know whether or not all of this stuff is kind of being done in the, in the backend? And what are the questions that they should be asking? I mean, look, Chris. You work with— I mean, when you had your other company, you worked with the big, the big guys in the industry. The most sophisticated companies worked with you. And so that's one level. But you also had the, you know, the smaller everyday home improvement company, the $1 to $5 or $6 million company that has absolutely no time and, and no person in their office that really can dive in and understand how all of this stuff works. And so how does the small company use this stuff? You know, the $2, $3, $5 million company, how do they use this stuff to actually compete against these bigger guys that are, that are much more sophisticated?

Sophistication's one thing. I, I think that there's an ability to compete for any company at really any level. So I think when you're a smaller company, you really focused on your brand story and, you know, we're a small company, we're local to the area. There are whole groups of people that want that small company. And then there's other groups of people that want to work with those larger style companies. I mean, I, I think there's room for both. To answer your question more directly, follow your intuition. Like if you're on a, a call with your digital marketing agency and all they talk about is how great they are and how many leads they're delivering. But you're not seeing it, you're not closing the sales. I mean, be realistic with yourself as well. I mean, make sure that you have some of the systems in place to be following up quickly. But if your intuition is telling you that something's just not quite right here, I got 100 leads, my one salesperson, my two salespeople, my one person in the call center says they're not setting, they're not issuing their sales calls, their service calls, whatever they might be. Begin to ask those questions more deliberately. And if the agency isn't offering up data that isn't always the best data, then they're leaving out parts of this. I mean, every agency has struggles. Like when we report our call data, we say, look, you got 200 phone calls, 20 of them were service calls. These are these 20 calls right here. Make them point out the parts that they feel didn't go perfectly through all of that. And what steps are they taking? Because on the paid side of the world, you're spending money to attract those service call clicks. Maybe small modifications to your website, having a service number built onto your website will drop the number of service calls that you're getting. I mean, it's a very common thing that the larger companies do. They have sales phone numbers and they have service phone numbers. It's a tiny investment. I'm talking about dollars a month in most cases to make those types of changes, not hundreds of dollars. Literally $4, $5, $6, $10 type things. So make sure that you're asking the right questions, follow your intuition, and make your, your digital agency provide you with data that's actually very meaningful and very actionable for you. Too many times, and it was something that I always talked about, we talked about at this company as well, is don't read the report to your customer. If you get on your monthly call, your bimonthly call, your weekly call, and you sent them a report and that report's in front of you and you start reading them that data, they're not going to be happy with that call. You're looking for your agency to make decisions based off of that data and then share that information with you, provide some insights, not just a report.

It really should feel like your agency is not a separate part of your team. They should be an integral part of your team. How are you sharing data with your team to understand, hey, if I'm your agency and I'm running things and things are looking really great and I'm saying, hey, you have 100 leads a month and it's a really low cost, but you're also not telling me, hey, I'm not really seeing this turn on my side. That kind of goes both ways too. So being able to share data with your agency team and then agency team being able to be super transparent about the data and the things that they're seeing on their side is only going to make that partnership very strong and be able to make optimization decisions that are only going to benefit you. So don't gatekeep the, the data that you guys have. Understand that data. Is a call converting better than a lead form? How do we start to push more calls versus lead fills? So that way, whenever the agency is deciding how we need to move forward from a strategic perspective, we have all the information that we need to make the better decisions on our side. But if you're providing that information and you're really not getting that partnership vibe, that's whenever you have to start kind of like, as Chris was saying, poking and prodding and saying like, all right, I'm going to need more data from you guys. I need to understand why these things aren't seeing because if I'm providing you information over here, but you're really not providing me information on your end to understand how to make it grow, that's whenever things get a little bit sticky.

And that's an excellent example you gave with the phone call compared to a form. I mean, you, you see a lot of small companies when they get a request, request a quote form, they struggle to call them back within minutes or less than a minute is what the really the goal should be. You know, they have to wait till they, they get back to the office or whatever it might be. So sometimes optimizing to a phone call is the way to go because we know we're going to set and issue that lead at a higher rate because sometimes a smaller company just doesn't have the staff in place or the call center or the methodology or scripting in place to actually work a follow-up on a request to quote form. So that's the type of partnership that you should be looking for. I think that was an excellent example.

Let's talk about volume and cost. So we kind of started off with saying that volume's down, costs are up. We all know this. Do you have any sense of kind of based on what you're seeing, if we were to take last year, you know, July of last year versus July of this year, just to give some context, do you know how far down volume is and how, how much costs have gone up? Do you have a sense of that?

I'm not really necessarily sure that volume is down to pre-COVID numbers. I mean, it's probably about parallel with pre-COVID numbers. COVID was just such an anomaly where everyone's spending their vacation money on their house that we're, we're actually closer to where it should have been the entire time. You know, I think Natalie could probably answer this better than most, but I mean, it's— the cost isn't drastically higher. It's just you have to optimize to her initial point more downstream. You have to be optimizing to the set, issued, closed appointment opposed to just the raw lead.

Yeah, we have to be a little bit more mindful. We always know that Google is going to up costs in terms of that initial click, that CPC. We see it all over, not just the home industry, but we see it in pretty much every kind of industry line that CPCs are going up. So we know that a little bit, a little, we're going to see a little bit of that uptick in the initial click. However, we just have to look more down the line to understand how do we impact ROI versus just that initial touchpoints that we're looking at.

Yeah, you know, we've been talking about at least I know that we started talking about it probably early last year. We talked about it here. We talked about it at Accelerate. We talked about things normalizing. And so it's interesting about what you said. So lead volume then is not— it didn't go off a cliff. It just normalized. And it's kind of where it was before COVID And before COVID things were very good. Things were very, very good. The economy was strong. People were buying. People were improving and companies were growing. So as things normalize, so what is there more? I guess now what we're seeing is we're seeing a lot of bigger companies out there that we had not seen before. I was talking with somebody the other day. I think it was Vince, actually, of how the top 500 list has changed. Just in the last, like, even 5, 7 years. Remember when it was like, if you were a $25 million company, you were in the top 100. Now you're maybe somewhere down in the, what, 300s now. And so it's interesting how many bigger companies we have. And so as a smaller company, if you're a smaller company, how are you now going to compete for leads with the bigger company? And it's a lot of what we were talking about here. Is efficiency, understanding data. Data is key. Partnering with the right people. Some of the other things I know, I mean, I'm blown away by the technology that you guys have created with this whole website creation thing. Do you want to talk a little bit about the importance of speed and of the website itself and how that translates into more leads?

Sure. So when you look at the speed of a website, it is directly connected to conversion. The conversion rate of your website. Faster websites always outconvert websites that are slower. The problem that the industry has, even at the very high level, because to your point, that top 500 list has billion-dollar organizations on it now. Yeah, even those billion-dollar organizations are getting their web tech wrong. And when I say web tech, the content management system that your website is built upon. So the most commonly used content management system in the home improvement space, and frankly in the world in a lot of cases, is what we call WordPress. And WordPress is not necessarily a bad system to be in. Again, most websites are in it. There's a lot of problems that are associated with WordPress. The biggest one being is that it's slow and that WordPress is what we call a coupled content management system. So like in, in my left hand, if I have my website, the look, the feel, the video, the images, the graphics, the links, the text, all of the things that make up a website, then it's attached to the content management system, which is WordPress, and they're stitched together. They are inexorably linked. There's no way to get them to separate. And the problem with this methodology is that when a user clicks on a link, it downloads the text, the images, the videos, the links, all the graphics, all of those things, and all of the calls into the database. So what happens is, is you have a very, very slow website. And Google measures the speed of your website and it is a key ranking variable from a search engine optimization standpoint. It's a key ranking variable from a paid media standpoint. So if your website is slow, you actually pay more per click.

This is kind of funny. Define slow. I don't exactly know the answer, but I have an idea and it's going to be shocking.

You know, slow is measured by Google. So they have a report anyone can Google. It's called PageSpeed Insights. Just type that into Google. It will take you right to it.

What was it? Say that again.

PageSpeed Insights.

Okay. PageSpeed Insights.

It's going to measure the speed of your website from 0 to 100. And what you'll find until now, most websites are nowhere near 100. Even Google scores about an 82 on their own PageSpeed Insights test. The problem is, is the average score within the home improvement industry. If you look at like the top 500 remodelers, is about 30 out of 100. So meaning all of these websites are incredibly slow.

Okay, but what does that translate to in actual, like, units of time? So what's the difference between a 30 and an 80 for context?

It's huge. And so within that same report, and to your exact point, you're gonna see a little box that says largest Contentful Paint. And what that means is, is, is your website, how long does it take it to load? Google looks at this on a throttled 4G connection. So they know that not everybody's in a major metropolitan area, not everyone's on a 5G phone. They look at the entire body in the United States and say, well, where could they be searching from? In most cases, on a throttled 4G time, it's 10 seconds for the largest Contentful Paint. So your, your website to load for the average person is 10 seconds. Now, if you're in New York, Chicago, Miami, Tampa, any major metro, it's gonna load in closer to 5 or 6 seconds.

That's the context I wanted you to give. 5 seconds is in anywhere else is flipping fast. I mean, it's gone. 5, there you go. 5 seconds gone. But in the internet marketing world, it's slow. So sorry to interrupt you, but I just wanted to give people context. And so you were saying about Google is at 82, most home improvements are at 30-something.

Most of them fail Google PageSpeed and literally will say this website failed this test. So it is a pass/fail type scenario. So what we've identified is that speed is critical to the conversion rate of your website. If you want to pay less per click, speed up your website. If you want to rank organically higher, speed up your website. Do you want to convert more TV, more radio, more print, more direct mail, more home show leads? Speed up your website. So our websites are built on a completely different technology where literally the front end of the website and the back end of the website are completely disconnected, which makes it look like you're, we're serving static pages to Google. So our largest Contentful Paint, Natalie and I just actually got off a very cool update call. Where our largest Contentful paints are about 1.1 seconds. So we load websites literally instantaneously to users. And what's been amazing is, is we've done some tests and some studies where just by rebuilding a website, not even reoptimizing the website, just putting it into this new platform, we see increases of where the website ranks within search engines. So that's how much weight people put in it. And again, what's cool is It's a technology for everybody. We took something that was typically reserved for Fortune 500 style companies, i.e., ESPN, USA Today, Apple. These are all people utilizing our tech or the same technology that we use, and they bring them in because they understand speed affects conversion. What we've done is, is we've taken that same technology and we're bringing it to everybody all the way down to the very small customer, all the way up to the enterprise level home improvement company.

So what's interesting about that is when we talk about speed of website, we talk then about speed to lead. So we've got to get speed to lead. The immediate thing that I start to think about is the attitude or the mindset of the owner of the business. Today, it is all about speed. And if you are, and I hate to say it this way because I am this, okay? I hate to say it. But if you're relaxed at all, like even like the difference between, okay, so your website loads in 1.1 seconds, a slow website according to you loads in 6 seconds. But the difference that that makes is pretty dramatic based on, on your, on what you're seeing. But it's the same thing also with now when the lead comes in. If you wait, the longer you wait up until a minute, the chances of you setting that lead go down dramatically. And if you let it go past a minute, chances are better that you're not gonna set it than you would have set it. And so it also goes to the attitude of the owner of, well, what kind of organization are we going to be? And if we really are going to. Win this marketing game, we got to get on it. We got to be like focused. And we have to, as the owner, as the leader of the company, we have to set the standard and we have to let our people know, hey, look, this is the type of company we're going to be. On that, and I know we're running out of time, but I have to ask you guys about this because this is huge and this may even be another, another episode. But aggregators blew up through COVID because it was easy. It was easy to make leads. We had never seen anything like this before. So these companies popped up and they're great because they go out, they make leads, they deliver them to companies, and then the companies go do what they do. They sell them and they install them. What we saw happen was we saw companies now become reliant on aggregators. I always tell people, I mean, look, aggregators should be just a small part of your overall marketing mix. 20, 30% at the most is aggregated. But we've got some people— I mean, I talked about this guy that I spoke to, great guy, great business, doing $40 million a year. Over 60% of his business was from aggregators. I'm like, dude, You gotta fix that because that ain't gonna work for you long term. So can you guys talk a little bit about— because we're competing against our internet marketing that we're paying you guys, let's say, for is competing against aggregators that are selling us those same leads back. And so how do we manage that?

Yeah, I think you need to look at what you're actually buying too. You have to understand it. So, so many aggregators go out and they buy the name of your organization. And paid search, and then they sell you the lead that you would have gotten for free.

Yeah.

The bigger problem for me, having been an entrepreneur and owned large businesses over my career, is I don't like my destiny put in the hands of somebody else that I don't control it.

Yeah, me neither.

And I think when you look at the latest laws that just came out to where from a TCPA, CCPA compliance standpoint, it's one lead, one, one company. So now there's laws that could come out and could drastically change your business. Without you having any say in that whatsoever. So starting this now, or, you know, fine-tuning what you're doing now, is really where you need to be focused on. Because if you're only relying on aggregators, you are not controlling your own destiny.

Yeah, I'm telling all of our Success Society members at every chance I get to start moving away and start to develop other sources of leads. I mean, that's what it was again before COVID We have to have a big marketing mix. You need direct mail as well as internet marketing. You need shows and events as well as a great website and SEO. All of that stuff all works together. So, okay, I like that.

One of the things that from an aggregator standpoint, but it's a little bit frustrating from an agency side to kind of talk about what an aggregator is doing and what we're doing, because a lot of times they'll come back and say, hey, your lead cost is so much more than what we're seeing from this aggregator. When what Chris is saying, that aggregator is probably just buying your brand terms. So of course it's going to be cheaper, but they're capturing all that really good branded content that you're already getting to begin with. So you're buying it at a higher cost from a branded perspective. But if you kind of meld non-brand and brand from an agency standpoint, that's why whenever we look higher, but when you separate all that data out again, you became, you become more strategic with the things that you're, you're working with, whether that be brand and non-brand, but you're able to separate out that data to actually understand what is working for you. And that isn't from just that raw lead cost again, but how does that impact your overall profit? So I think the aggregators have their place, like you said, like you, we want to have a good healthy mixed media, really fueling the funnel where we can, but we don't want to be depending on those aggregators to be bulking up your lead source.

Yeah. And, and one thing to add to that is what I always tell people, and I actually listened to somebody speak recently, and, and then I think he was a very good speaker and he made some good points, but it also lacked a lot of context. When you look at directories and aggregators, you have to understand what they actually are, what the web actually is. The web is a directory of roughly 8 trillion individual pages. Google is a directory on the web, so a directory within a directory of roughly 700 billion individual pages. And then you look at all of these other directories that lead aggregators living within a directory, within a directory, within a directory, you get instability in those listings. So like I've been doing this for 30 years. When I hear people say SEO is dead or this is happening, the directories are gonna take over. I've, of my 30-year career, I've heard that for 25 of those years. And what happens is, is the algorithm changes and directories sometimes rank highly, sometimes they rank lower. Right now Forbes ranks really well. Never in my mind have I thought of a home improvement project where I'm like, I'm gonna go to Forbes and figure out where, who I'm gonna work with. That's what most good optimizers would call it an algorithmic anomaly and probably not long for this world. Not that forms will disappear, but it will be toned down a little bit. So you have to control your destiny if you're, if you're planning on scaling your business. You can't rely, rely only on lead sources that might be unreliable.

Well, with that, I think that's a great place to stop. I think this was good. There's so much out there with internet marketing and the aggregators and leads and, and speed to lead and all of this stuff that we've been talking about. But I like, ultimately, at the end of the day, I think it's exactly what you said. It's taking destiny in your own hands. It's taking control for yourself. And as a business owner, especially in this space, and look, I'm a marketer, so I think this of any business, but especially in this space, the name of the game in this business is leads, leads, leads, leads. And driving those leads to a system, a process that converts that lead into a sale profitably. And so that's really the thing. And the production side of it, it really should be the easiest part of this business. It's funny how the production's kind of the easiest part. Lead generation is the hardest part. And the real core is your ability to be able to sell that project at the right price in order for you to be profitable. So it's really interesting. Conversation. Things are changing fast. I think you guys, what you guys are doing is obviously, I think it's fantastic. And again, I don't think there's anybody that understands lead generation quite the way you do, Chris. So where would people go to, to learn more about what you guys are doing?

They can certainly visit us online at truvolve.com. It's T-R-U-V-O-L-V, T-R-U-V-O-L-V.com. You'll learn a lot about kind of what we do there. I think you'll learn more about us by just clicking around the website and watch how fast these pages load and watch the experience that it's created. There's also a program now called True Coach, which is completely unique in the industry to where we actually help develop leaders within your organization as it relates to lead management, sales, marketing, and all of those different things. So You know, we, we believe we solved kind of two big problems in the industry, which gets around, you know, coaching and mentorship, but also speed to lead, speed of your website and just, you know, speed overall. I mean, it's, I jokingly say digital marketing companies are really, really good at building really, really slow websites, really, really slowly, really, really slow. So it's, it's, it's a passion of ours. You know, that's why Natalie's here and so many key players in the industry are part of this company. So we're, we're really excited.

TruVolv.com, T-R-U-V-O-L-V.com. Alright guys, thank you so much. Until next time, this is Brian Kaskavalciyan, and this is the Wealthy Contractor Podcast.