The Insulin-Cancer Connection Doctors Don't Explain | Dr. Dawn Mussallem

Insulin is a bad thing, and it's a very bad thing when it comes to cancer because insulin is linked to growth factors. And when insulin's linked to these growth factors, it can propagate growth, including tumor growth. I see people come in all the time. They're exercising perfect, they're eating perfect, their blood sugars are not as good as we would think. And a lot of times it's coming to their sleep. They're doing everything else perfect, but they're not sleeping. So sleep is very important for that metabolic optimization.

My guest today on the Being Brigid Show, Dr. Dawn Musalem, spent 25 years at Mayo Clinic and founded their integrative breast oncology program. She's Brigid Titgemeier is a medical doctor, double board certified in hematology and oncology and lifestyle medicine, and she has spent her career caring for women as they navigate breast cancer. She has also walked the cancer journey herself.

In medical school, I was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. I was given 3 months to live without treatment, 20 months to live with treatment. In 2016, my heart stopped and it wasn't able to be resuscitated even with a defibrillator. I was successfully transplanted in 2001. When it comes to food and when it comes to our gene expression, our ability to turn on genes that help to put the brakes on cancer, That is cool. Food truly is medicine, and it's not about eating 5 certain superfoods. Just get a wide variety. And if you hate one of those things and you just don't like it, don't put yourself through that. Just do the things that you enjoy. Make it simple.

My guest today on the Being Brigid Show spent 25 years at Mayo Clinic and founded their integrative breast oncology program. She's double board certified in hematology and oncology and lifestyle medicine, and she has spent her career caring for women as they navigate breast cancer. She has also walked the cancer journey herself. At 26 years old, 3 months into medical school, Dr. Dawn Musalem was diagnosed with stage 4 lymphoma, and years later, her heart failed. She lived at 8% heart function until she had a transplant, and 1 year after that transplant, she ran a full marathon. She's here today to discuss the blood sugar and cancer connection, the connection between using food as medicine for cancer, and how we can strive for aliveness instead of just survival. Survival. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

I've been waiting for this date, just so— I'm so happy we finally found time. And, you know, I'm not seeing patients now in my role at Fountain Life, and so this really means a lot to me. Thank you for inviting me, and hello to all of your listeners, because I love the audience that you attract, is women that are really embarking upon living their best life. And that gives me chills, and it's so special. I love— I mean, I love people, period. But I really love— I adore women. We're there just serving our families. And this is our moment together, like this hour where we get to serve these women that are listening. So we'll have fun.

We'll have so much fun. Can you explain the connection between a person's blood sugar levels and their risk for breast cancer?

Yeah, I mean, this is really important. And when it comes to metabolic health, you know, we're all, we're all kind of in the same bucket together. 88 to 92% of Americans are not Metabolically healthy. I myself, you know, people can look and they'd be like, oh, I'm sure she's metabolically healthy. Actually, it was probably about 18 months ago that my hemoglobin A1C was in the pre-diabetic range.

Wow.

Oh, it's weird, right? Like, how does that happen? So I put a continuous glucose monitor on, and I'm in a meeting, and it's like, beep. I'm like, what the heck? It's like 2:22 after my lunch. I'm thinking, what on earth? I was having beans and some grains and, you know, obviously vegetables, and I just couldn't make sense of it. Well, I kind of thought longer. I thought, well, how did I sleep the night before? You know, and I didn't. So we know that even things like sleep, it's not just even food that helps to optimize this Metabolic health or our response of our blood sugar, insulin, and what's happening in our body. So let's kind of break that down. So when we eat something, you know, whether it's something sugary or whether it's something more healthy like lentils and a whole grain and some vegetables, your body's role is to take that energy or the sugar from that energy and tuck it into your muscles so your muscles can use it for energy. The muscles want carbohydrates. Some things like straight up sugar, if you're drinking a soda or fruit juice versus if you're eating that whole meal, or let's say you're doing a, you know, nice piece of grilled salmon with some vegetables and a baked potato, whatever you're eating, when you're eating that combination meal with the fiber, with the protein, with the carbohydrate, your blood sugar is not going to go up quite as high and it's going to be a little bit more balanced, unlike when you have that sugar and it goes straight up. So that response to the sugar has to do with something that's released from your pancreas called Insulin. And insulin is such a sneaky little molecule. It has an important purpose because that insulin is released from the pancreas to tuck that blood sugar into the muscle quickly, like, get it out of my blood sugar, get it into the muscle. And if we have too much fat in our body, if we don't have enough muscle, if we're not moving, what's going to happen is that blood sugar is going to stay up, the pancreas is going to work harder, and the pancreas is going to release more insulin. And more and more insulin. And if that happens over a long period of time, what happens is that blood sugar starts to just stay up, and we start to see that hemoglobin A1C starts to go up to the point that you're pre-diabetic or ultimately diabetic. But what would be the best marker to check before that blood sugar stays up and we see that hemoglobin A1C? The hemoglobin A1C is the amount of basically sugars you're putting around your red blood cells. And it goes for about 90 days. That's a snapshot of 90 days of what your sugar burden around those red blood cells is. And so we know that we want to really keep that hemoglobin A1C less than 5.4. And if that hemoglobin A1C goes, you know, over that 5.7 range, that's when we're really talking something that we, we must turn around. But I want to really see A1C less than 5.4, but Going back to this insulin, that's the number I want to look at first. And so few doctors check it. And when doctors check it, a lot of times they're looking at the lab number, right? So, a patient or a person is listening to this podcast and they go to their doctor and say, hey, I heard Dr. Dawn talking. She said I should have my insulin level checked. They have it checked and it comes back, say, 12. And doctor's like, oh, well, you're within the normal range. Wow. Well, not really because I want fasting insulin, fasting. It should be a fasting test. To be between 2 to 5. And if your fasting insulin is between 2 to 5, that means that your body's doing the right thing. As you eat your balanced diet, your pancreas is releasing the insulin, that blood sugar, that carbohydrate from the food is going into your muscle the way we need it to. So why is it a problem? Getting back to your answer, I just wanted to kind of explain some of the physiology there just a little bit because I, I think it's a very confusing thing for most people to put together the sugar and insulin. And I hope I didn't just confuse people, but hopefully that makes a little bit of sense.

Everyone's tracking with you, I think.

Well, insulin is a bad thing. It's a very bad thing. And it's a very bad thing when it comes to cancer because insulin is linked to growth factors. And when insulin's linked to these growth factors, it can propagate growth, including tumor growth. Okay? So this is why we wanna pay attention and try to have insulin lower. It doesn't have to be perfect. You need insulin. I mean, it's doing a job. When you eat food, it's natural for your blood sugar to go up. It's, if you ever wore a continuous glucose monitor, it's natural for your blood sugar to go up. for periods of time. It's basically what is your balance of your blood sugar over a day's period of time that we're looking at. But we know that that insulin— there's a Women's Health Initiative, it showed that, you know, in women with higher insulin levels, they had a 34% increased risk of breast cancer. In women that have higher insulin levels, these would oftentimes be women, again, that are that pre-diabetic or diabetic that have a little bit more body fat on their body because they're not able to use the blood sugar they need to. They're not exercising. Exercise is so, so important. Important. And I also brought up something important here that a lot of us ignore. What is that? Sleep. My gosh, Bridget, I see people come in all the time. They're exercising perfect, they're eating perfect, their blood sugars are not as good as we would think. And a lot of times it's coming to their sleep. They're doing everything else perfect, but they're not sleeping. So sleep is very, very important also for that metabolic optimization. And then for women who have a history of breast cancer, we know that those women with those higher insulin levels Also have a higher risk of poor outcomes after breast cancer. So this is important for both breast cancer prevention as well as improving breast cancer outcomes after that diagnosis if a woman was to be diagnosed with breast cancer. So why don't you ask me some questions around that so I can make sure I clear it up? I kind of wish this was live cuz sometimes people ask the best live question like, oh yeah, I can explain it perfect now. It's so hard, but that's usually how I do explain it to patients is I get a little bit into the science so they can truly understand what's happening on a physiologic level.

I think that this is great. I mean, what you've basically pointed to is that fasting insulin is one of the most important markers for us to be checking and advocating for with our doctors to better understand our blood sugar regulation. That when you look at the research that's been done, that women who have more insulin resistance have about a 34% higher risk of breast cancer, and that insulin— supporting insulin sensitivity is essential for not only prevention but survivorship of breast cancer. And so few Women are told this in their doctor's appointment. And I'm honestly shocked because I didn't know this about your own journey 18 months ago and the changes that you made through using a continuous glucose monitor to better understand what your body needs.

Yeah, I really did. And I, I optimized my nutrition a little bit and we talked about, and we could open up that conversation to this if you would like, because it, it really concerned me. And for years I've used gut microbiome testing to guide my own nutrition. Definitely to guide my patients' nutrition because, you know, we are in a position now in medicine where we can start to be precise about what we eat. You know, I would say 5 years earlier, really, you know, 7 to 8 years earlier, we could only rely on population data, meaning look at what the observational studies did. But that's not perfect, right? It's just a— Yeah. Bunch of people into a basket and we make conclusions. It's the best we can do, and it's pretty consistent with what we're going to see in terms of the gut microbiome. We know it's bad for us, right? We know that the ultra-processed foods are bad for us. We know fried food, processed meat is bad for us. Sugary sweetened beverage, fruit juice— even fruit juice isn't good for you. It's just straight— you're stripping the fiber, the most precious thing you should have. The things that are good for you are things that are rich in vitamins and nutrients, those phytonutrients, and particularly fiber, healthy forms of protein, leaning in on some of those plant proteins, not just getting it from animal protein. And then those omega-3 fatty acids. It's, it's so, so easy to kind of just step back and say, okay, those are things I need to do. But when you hit the grocery store, you're making that recipe, it gets a lot more complicated. The biggest thing we have to think about when it comes to that metabolic resilience or optimization with food alone is really to have that balanced meal. You know, have your protein, have your complex carbohydrate, your whole grain, and then lots of vegetables. And I always tell people, load that plate up half vegetable or fruit, you know, if it's breakfast. So, you know, we're supposed to get at a minimum 5 servings of vegetables and fruits. That sounds like ridiculous. That sounds like way too low, right? But 90% of Americans aren't doing it. So we kind of got to just start with get 5 a day. But I certainly don't count. I just look at each meal and say, okay, is half my meal coming from vegetable and fruit? I think that's the best thing that that we can do is just try to make sure that, that half of that plate or bowl is coming from vegetable and fruit. There's been really great data showing us that getting enough vegetables and fruits is one of the leading things that can help to improve outcomes and help to prevent things like cancer-related mortality, cardiovascular disease mortality, dying from any cause. I mean, gosh, that sounds so ugly, right? But in the world of longevity, the biggest thing we need to think about are avoiding the things that could take us out, right? And so that's heart disease number one and cancer number two. And vegetables and fruits, believe it or not, when everyone's getting fancy and buying all these expensive supplements and doing these like really like kind of cool procedures, we use some of these cool procedures actually at Fountain Life. But holy cow, if you're not eating enough vegetables and fruits, you're not doing your job. So one take-home for everyone here is I really want you to do this with me. I, I am like notorious. So this morning, I looked at my bowl and I filled it with blueberries and I filled it with a little more blueberries. They were frozen organic blueberries because I wanted half that bowl to come from berries. And I do that with every single meal. Last night, same thing. I loaded up my plate with half the plate coming from frozen broccoli that I heated because I was in a hurry, but really loaded that plate up with some broccoli. So I invite you to do that. And it's kind of cool because, you know, there's a lot of advanced testing out there now and I get to have a lot of fun with that advanced testing and Some of these tests look at our biologic clock. So, how old are we on our birth certificate versus how old is our biology? And, there's one thing that's so cool, you know what I'm going to say, that is actually shown to optimize that biologic age profile or the GrimAge it's called. And, guess what? It's vegetable fruit consumption. It's so cool. So, I think that that's really, really important. But, the big take-home here, messages, you just want to eat a balanced meal, one that's giving you fiber, healthy forms of protein, healthy fats. It doesn't need to be fat-free. That fat's going to help to optimize that blood sugar response so that insulin doesn't have to go quite so high to tuck it into the muscles.

This is such an important message because there are so many people that are out there that are falling prey to the millions and millions of dollars being spent marketing these fancy supplements that seem like they're a, a magic bullet. And what you're saying is Don't start with these fancy supplements. Like, one of my big things is AG1. It's like, don't start with spending $70 a month on AG1. Start with figuring out a way to increase your non-starchy vegetables, especially adding some of those starchy vegetables in a balanced way, incorporating these phytonutrients from the fruit and the fiber and all these other benefits. And for you to be able to say that you're— so for anyone that doesn't know, the company that Dr. Don works for is Tony Robbins Clinic. And you're running very advanced testing like you said, and people are paying tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars to work with you. And in running these tests, you're like, this is one thing that anyone can do without spending all of this money on these advanced testing to like just start with the basics, increasing your non-starchy vegetables, your fruits, the variety that you're getting.

Yeah, that's exactly right, Brigid. And, you know, so I was at Mayo Clinic for, you know, including my training for over 20 years. This is a really hard departure for me. You know, I, I was really sad about leaving Mayo Clinic, but it got so challenging. And this isn't Mayo's fault, but the insurance reimbursement wasn't wanting to reimburse my practice because it was this integrative wellness practice where I helped women after breast cancer diagnosis and during their breast cancer to live their healthiest life possible. And insurance is like, well, wait a minute, you know, why are we paying you this? You know, people should know to do this. But no, we know that it improves outcomes after breast cancer. And why are we paying

you to spend all this time with your patients, right? Because they don't like spending more on you spending more time with your patients because they care more about volume than they do quality time.

Yeah. And you need that time because it's so scary. You know, people— I mean, it's, you know, for many it's 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years of habits that they want to do better with. And the last thing you can do is just try to unpack that in 20 minutes. So I had a 90-minute visit. I had like a lot of time. Mayo was so supportive of this. But because of the insurance model, they were going to have to cut my patient appointment time in half. So I was given this opportunity to help to democratize wellness with Tony Robbins and Peter Diamandis at Fountain Life. And unfortunately, it is a cash-based model. You know, you know, the, the, the one model where people come in and just do the testing, they meet with a doctor once, is about $10,000. That's so expensive. That, like, hurts my feelings to even say that. But what we're doing in this model— and there's another one that's You know, about $24,000 that these people have this multimodal testing and they follow with a whole care team for a full year and they just keep on following. You know, this becomes their new model of care. Some of these people, you know, only have emergency insurance. Many folks send me messages, well, wait a minute, my deductible's $10,000 anyways. I'm spending it and I'm not even getting the answer I want. So for some people, you know, the biggest investment you can make is in your health. I would love to get the price points of these tests lower, and we're trying to figure out how we do that. But right now we check a massive amount of testing. We do whole genome sequencing. Part of that helps me to bioindividualize even the nutritional recommendations. We do full body MRI. We do a CAT scan that looks for soft plaque in the heart with an AI overlay. This CAT scan is a quantitative coronary angiography. I couldn't believe it when I joined Fountain Life. to find out that 88% of people getting screened had detectable heart disease. I have chills again. This is really hard. You know, so my husband, when my daughter was 5, died of sudden cardiac death in his 50s. So this is very personal to me. Like, how can we do better? You know, in the traditional medical model, we're not doing these quantitative CT scans with AI overlays to look for heart disease. And at FoundLife, now we're finding it. And so I'm taking that scan and trying to find out what biomarkers matter most. Guess what? Why do you think I spent 10 minutes in the beginning of this talk talking about fasting insulin? It's one of those. It's not just a risk factor for breast cancer, it's also a risk factor for heart disease. You know, the number one reason that both men and women die is heart disease. So we've got to pay attention to heart health. You know, um, we do body compositions. We look at how much fat mass someone has, how much muscle mass someone has, what their bone density is. We do VO2 testing. We do the microbiome testing. That microbiome testing guides the precision nutrition. nutrition. And then we do a lot of documented blood tests, like over 150 tests. So we've collected over 34 billion data points. And so it's these data points that I'm going through, working with the scientific team there to figure out solutions for the entire world. Like, what are the tests that matter most? Mm-hmm. And so it's a lot of fun and really working strategically to figure out how we can make this and offer this to the hands of everyone. And we use large AI models that help us to analyze this data and AI models also offered to our members. So it's very exciting. But, you know, what I've learned is that we're all kind of in this, in the same, like we all have the same questions when it comes to food. And I saw this both at Mayo Clinic as well as Fountain Life. And it's the number one thing that people want more answers to. And I think it's very exciting to see the work with the gut microbiome and how that can individualize nutrition. One thing that we find at Fountain Life is 74% of individuals have nutrient deficiencies. So you talked about AG1. Even eating what people think is a really good, pretty perfect diet, there's still a lot of nutrient gaps. You know, vitamin D, about 95% of Americans don't get proper intake, but you're not going to get proper intake from vitamin D. You get that from the sun, really. It's a hormone more. But unfortunately, you know, we don't go out in the sun, or if we do, we have sunscreen on or a hat on. Vitamin C deficiency, 50% of Americans have vitamin C deficiency. 84% have, you know, Vitamin E deficient intakes. It's just rampant what we see. And I see a lot of zinc deficiency, copper deficiencies. It just goes on and on. So, you know, I— it really is important that you work with your doctor to have these levels checked. I know this is what you did for your career with Dr. Hyman, you know, Brigid. So you're— you were— you were— you guys were doing this before anyone else. You were like so ahead of your time, both you and Dr. Hyman. So this is a huge shout out to what you both did to kind of trailblaze to where we've landed now to continue driving that science forward. So thank you.

Oh my gosh, that is so nice of you to say. But— Yeah. I'm just so blown away by so many things that you just shared. One, like the connection with your husband and the work that motivates you in addition to your own health journey, which we're going to get into. The fact that you are charging more for these services, I feel like you shouldn't feel bad for because this is how we advance medicine. And for as much as the work that you were doing at Mayo Clinic was so important, there are real confines Like, I worked in traditional healthcare as well, and there are real confines that you have, unfortunately, in an insurance reimbursable model that you're always like running your head up. And as a practitioner, it's nearly impossible to be able to deliver the, the quality of care that you know that people need.

Yeah.

In a way that doesn't lead to immense burnout when you're going from a revolving door of people to like not even being able to have a bathroom break and like not being able to have lunch. And 'cause you care about the quality of time that you're spending with people. So I think that what you're doing, taking your experience to then be able to plug this into people who can afford it to be able to then say, how can we take these findings and share them with the world so that we can create models? I mean, in a similar way that Dr. Hyman did where even just starting Function Health, which I have no affiliation with, but being able to start this to roll it out to the masses to say like, from my 20+ years of clinical experience, we found that having these biomarkers are so important because a lot of the ones that Dr. Hyman runs in Function Health are the ones that he was running when I was seeing his patients, right? It's like— That's how that was tested initially. And so I think that it'll lead to very similar things with the work that you're doing is being able to apply what you're finding to the masses to be able to help evolve medicine, because we know that medicine unfortunately evolves so slow when we're just basing it off of what's been shown in these observational trials. So that precision piece is so unbelievably important that it's not about necessarily everything we're finding in these observational trials. But what is it when we look at the N of 1, when we can compare your labs 1 year ago to your labs 1 year later and then again 5 years later based on these changes and tweaks that you've made to your nutrition and your lifestyle so that we can see what's working for you that's moving the needle and it's less than focused on like, okay, what does this study show on these like 50 random 70-year-old men that live in the middle of nowhere instead of like, okay, well, what's true for you as a 40-year-old female that's postpartum and struggling with nutrient deficiencies? And a number of other things that apply to only you.

Oh, that's so powerful. I mean, I love— I love what you just said. It was— and just like your conviction behind it. You know, when I was a physician at Mayo, my daughter obviously was getting healthcare at Mayo Clinic and she was just starting college and she just wasn't feeling quite right. And I, I would ask my colleague, hey, can you check this? Can— and they're like, yeah, but do you really? So I sent my daughter to function health and I'm like, oh, let's just get you to your labs with Mark. It was amazing. You know, and so, that was kind of like the insight. And Fountain Life is similar, you know, but we're bricks and mortar to where we're doing— Yes. You have care team like with the doctor wrapped around you. And then, when I joined Fountain Life, I obviously did my own testing. So, I found out that I have a gene that contributes to an increased risk of cancer, the CHEK2 gene. And then, I also— they found out that I have a gene that contributes to cardiomyopathy called the TTN gene. Otherwise, I would have never known this. So, it's like, oh my gosh. So then, they did my whole genome sequencing as well as indications with biomarkers looking for vitamin deficiencies. And, I was dramatically low in my omega-3s. I was super low in my choline and I had to make dietary adjustments. I was a very strict vegan for many years of my diet history. I felt great as a vegan, but I started to just feel like I didn't have as much pep in my step. And, you know, I tried to power up and I would just drink a little more caffeine or whatever to make up for it. But it turned out I had very substantial deficiencies. And so I stepped away from this expectation that we sometimes place on ourselves, like we want to fit this mold. Like, I like to be disciplined personally. I think it feels good to show up for yourself in a way that you have self-control. So for me, a whole food plant-based diet felt good because I I was in check and I was proud of myself, but it wasn't the best diet for me. So I added some low-fat and fat-free yogurt. I added a few eggs each month that are farm-fresh eggs or from a neighbor for that choline deficiency. And I added wild fish. You know, why would I take supplements? It's very hard to properly supplement choline, by the way. And you get a lot of micronutrients that are really necessary in an So that is what I have done and I feel so much better doing it, but I never would've found out if I wasn't doing this testing. And it really made me appreciate not being quite so strict. And I would have so many women message me when I was really strict with my whole food plant-based diet. And it was like they were confessing like, Dr. Dawn, I had some yogurt or I had some fish. I'm like, well, that's fine. Those are healthy foods. I just select not to have them myself, but it doesn't mean that they're Not healthy. Now, in the light of having those foods, I'm still, as I shared with you, eating lots of vegetables, lots of fruits. I get lots of fiber. I still get lots of plant proteins with soy and like things like tempeh and edamame and tofu and such. But it's really a blended, balanced diet. One of my favorite studies ever is the Dietary Pattern for Longevity. Basically, this study was published 2 years ago, and it showed that a plant-predominant diet, as well as some low-fat, some moderate amounts of low-fat dairy, like 1 to 2 servings a day, contributed to healthy aging by up to 86%. This was getting more vegetables and fruits and whole grains, you know, nuts and seeds, a little bit of dairy. This is just that balanced, healthy diet, you know, getting rid of those fake foods, getting rid of the processed meat, getting rid of the sugary beverages. Those things are what mattered most. So it's a pretty simple take-home.

So I, I expected coming into this interview that you were— I didn't realize that you had stopped, that you had incorporated animal fish and, and eggs into your diet because I was still under the assumption that you were still vegan. And I was going to ask, because you led a panel last fall when we were at Eudaimonia with Dr. Tim Spector, who I— my audience knows I adore and like love all the research that Tim Spector has published, and then Mark Sisson, who's more from the carnivore camp.

Yeah.

And you did such a great job, you know, kind of like talking about the benefits of plant-based, but then also that And, you know, being able to kind of bridge both of these places from 2 men that are on kind of like completely different ends of the spectrum with saying like, okay, but we have to come back to the foundation. So I wanted to talk to you about how you feel about the research on plant-based diets and what, what our audience should really know. Because from my lens, I feel that 2 questions are often merged into one. Number one, is a high plant diet better than a low plant diet? We can say that the evidence here is overwhelmingly Yes, and it's not contested in any way. Yeah. But the second question is, does that mean that a zero animal food diet is better than a high plant diet that includes animal foods? And that's where I feel like it's a much narrower question that hasn't been studied as well, and that the evidence is not really there for, for us to be able to say that the answer is yes, that a zero animal food diet is better than a high plant diet that includes animal foods. How, based on your experience personally and from a research standpoint, what are your thoughts on that?

This is such a good question, you know, and I think what we can easily say is if we look at the Mediterranean dietary pattern and if we were to ensure that that was from whole foods, there is consistent data that always points to that's the healthiest diet, and it's also the diet that people can. Comply with, they can abide to over the long run. The biggest thing I saw when it came to a plant-based diet, especially when people are traveling and they're out and about, is it was hard for them to get the whole food portion. And sometimes it would enter into getting more of the processed vegan foods. So you asked— there's a lot of different ways to answer that. I think it's first you need to make sure that you get what you need. And that would be fiber, number one. You know, essentially 90 to 95% of Americans don't get enough fiber. If you're a carnivore, you're not getting any fiber because you're only getting animal products, and that's just very dangerous. That's why we see this uptick of colon cancers and likely breast cancer in young people. One of the best ways you can detoxify your body is with fiber. There was a massive umbrella review. I always tell people 3 things when it comes to research. If you're on social media, you're like, Well, that doesn't make a lot of sense. That seems like an outrageous claim. First of all, was it done in humans? How many people were in the study? And what are they comparing it to? Those are 3 basic questions you should always try to find out, you know. And if, if they're not posting that in this study, message the person posting it and get that answer to make sure that they're, they're properly educating you. Very, very, very critical. So when we step back though and we look at the fiber, there was a study, as I was sharing with this, 7 17 million person umbrella review. Boom. And what it showed is that fiber— this was published last year, this is like the biggest study I've ever seen— had Class 1 evidence. That's the biggest evidence we have in medicine. Like, this is what we say like when there's this novel therapeutic that's going to like save the world, like, wow, this drug does this cool thing. Class 1 evidence that fiber can improve your outcomes from heart disease, reduce the risk of dying from heart disease. That's huge. It also reduced the risk of diverticular disease, and a big one, it reduced the risk of pancreatic cancer. These are Class 1 evidence. This is significant. We also know that in this same year, last year, there were studies that showed that yes, fiber is going to reduce the risk of both cancer occurring and dying from cancer, and that fiber is also the best thing when it comes to helping to optimize weight loss opportunities, as well as, again, enhancing that metabolic control. Mm-hmm. So fiber is what I would say. Where do you get fiber from? Plant foods. So things like your vegetables and fruits and whole grains, nuts and seeds and beans. So we really want to focus on that. Now you asked the question, has there ever been a study that's compared it? And you have predominantly a women's audience, which I love. So one of my other favorite studies ever published, it had about 48,000 women in it. It was from the Nurses Health Study, and it looked at these women for for 30 years. And they— the question they answered is, you know, what is the path to healthy aging, basically, when it came to lifestyle? And protein was one of the things that just stood out. Protein mattered regardless of how you got it. Protein mattered. But guess what shined the most? It was plant protein, actually. So plant protein had 38% healthy aging from all domains. Physically, emotionally, and cognitively. This is really cool. Now, dairy had a 14% advantage and animal protein otherwise had a 7% advantage. So I think this is a cool study. It doesn't mean that you can— you should only eat plant protein. It just illuminates the fact that, okay, plant protein really does have a benefit. This doesn't mean that it has to be plant only though. Okay? So if we look at the other animal sources of protein, what I say is within the other animal sources of protein, Is there harm with any of them? So when it comes to red meat and processed meat, when we look at the American Institute for Cancer Research guidelines on cancer prevention through to cancer survivorship, both red meat is a probable carcinogen and processed meat is a known carcinogen. Now, you would need to eat a lot of those things, especially the red meat, to make it become a cancer, but we really should not endorse red meat as a health food. Because we know that it is linked or it's associated with cancer, particularly cancer of the colon. Processed meat is one of these class one carcinogens. So, does that mean you can never have red meat? Well, let's ask what the Americans for Cancer Research said. They basically said that twelve ounces of red meat a week probably isn't enough to ever hurt you, especially if you're doing everything else right. Would I eat red meat? Do I eat red meat? I don't know. Personally, no. I wouldn't personally never touch it. I have a very unique past history, obviously, both cancer and heart failure. Once you have a heart transplant, you're at a big risk for the vessels in that new heart to get a lot of inflammation. And we know that red meat has a lot of inflammation. So I personally do not touch red meat. The other problem is when you cook red meat, really when you cook any meat, but when you're heating up red meat, the creatine in the meat protein, you create these carcinogenic compounds called heterocyclic amines. And polyaromatic hydrocarbons. So you never wanna char meat or cook meat on those high, high temperatures. So I personally don't eat meat, uh, red meat. My cancer survivors that I work with, I really encourage them to try to avoid it and then just to enjoy it on special occasions. You know, and if you're having it, it should be more like a condiment on your plate, not like the main thing taking up your plate. What about turkey and chicken? Well, I think if it's sourced from the right place and it's, it's a clean source of, of, of chicken or turkey, probably. It's okay, right? It's lower in saturated fat, but you just got to get that safe source. And I don't think that that— I don't think that industry is well regulated. So it's hard for me to know how to guide you on that. I would say one interesting thing because I've used Viome for many years. Viome, V-I-O-M-E. I do help to advise them. So some people could see that as a conflict of interest. But Viome, I've used that for years to help individualize nutrition for my patients based on the gut microbiome. And you know what's really cool? And I'm having Viome look at their data because I think I think every single person that ever did Viome, turkey was always their superfood or a food they could enjoy. I've never seen a person on their Viome have turkey as something they should avoid. So Viome, you give oral, little blood prick, and some poo-poo, some of your stool, and they analyze it in the lab and they come back and they tell you what foods are your superfoods, what foods to enjoy, what foods to limit, and what foods to avoid in terms Yeah. In terms of optimizing your gut microbiome and your overall health. So this is where we're moving with science is trying to individualize nutrition. But turkey was one of the things that I've never seen someone told that they should avoid it. So I think that's kinda cool. So if someone's trying to add some poultry in their diet based on this, if they're not doing this sort of testing, I say, well, you know, maybe add some turkey. You know, I personally don't eat chicken or turkey. I think it's just one of those things that I— I've always been more vegetarian, vegan my whole life, so I just opt not to. It just doesn't resonate with me. But I don't think that turkey would hurt someone, and that's usually on the weekend if my family wants some something besides tofu. I'll make them some turkey is what I'll make them. And then when it comes to fish, so how would fish hurt us? I don't know. I've never seen a study that fish hurts us. There's an acronym called SMASH. Sardines, mackerel, anchovies, salmon, and herring. Those are going to be the ones that have more omega-3 rich fatty acids. They're going to be a little lower in the mercury. So that would be the one thing people say, well, what about mercury? Well, what about the water period? You know, so if people overconsume fish, you may be exposing yourself to some of the junk that's in the water nowadays. This is really terrible. You know, I kind of, I kind of hate that we have to worry about these things. So it's kind of that risk-benefit ratio. I still think there's a lot of benefit to fish with those omega-3 fatty acids. It's a great It's a great source of protein. It's an easy way if you're going out to dinner, it's an easy thing to get on the menu, you know, more of that pescatarian-style diet than when I was in my vegan, you know, period, which was, you know, very recent for me. I would find when I travel, sometimes I would be stuck with the pasta thing on the menu or I'd get pizza without cheese. It's just I wasn't getting enough nutrients. And now I feel really good if I have a piece of salmon with some grilled vegetables. Or I'm sorry, with some steamed, you know, vegetables with it. So that works really, really good for me personally. I don't know if we're supposed to shout out brands, but I think this is an interesting brand. I have no affiliation with it. It's called Seatopia. Have you heard of this, Brigid?

Yes, yes, yes, I have.

It's kind of cool what they're doing. It's regeneratively sourced fish, so they look at the water, and so the water is microplastic-free, which I think is very important. And they report that their fish is lower in mercury, that they test for that. So, you know, I don't know that that's the definite answer here. But if someone is consuming fish very regularly, that may be a resource that they want to check out. Myself, when it comes to fish, I probably get it just a few times a month. I don't get it all that often. And I do supplement because I'm not getting it regularly with now a fish oil instead of the algae oil because I just, for whatever reason, I couldn't bring my levels up with the algae oil. So I do take a fish oil, a purified fish oil. Because of, because of that. Also at Fountain Life, we look at brain health. We do an MRI of the brain that looks at brain age, and we check for the APOE gene. So I think I, I love my mom and dad, but they gave me some really messed up genetics because I also have the APOE4 gene. And we know that people with APOE4 gene, they're not as efficient at taking the plant alpha-linolenic acid over to that DHA. That's— That is not good. That is not good for people with this risk factor of dementia in the future, right? So, I made a lot of my decisions based on precision medical testing, you know, and what's really a shame and I— God, I feel so bad for all those women I've worked with for these years is I felt guilty. Like, even this day, I sometimes feel guilty like I need to explain myself for eating fish because it was kind of ingrained in me that this plant-based diet was the best thing I could ever do. And, I do I do not ever think we should put guilt on people for what they eat. Food is love. Food is nourishment, and it's fuel for our body to be the healthiest version of itself. And so I really wanna open that up to each of you, not to judge, not to be critical, to do this through the lens of love. Do your best. It doesn't have to be perfect. This is about, you know, a progress towards eating better, not about perfection. Important message.

Yes. Oh, I love that message so much. It's so important. Okay. That my journey has been very similar, that I started out vegan and was working under— it's an identity thing where when you start to eat meat after not eating meat for so long, you're like, oh my gosh, it's like going against all these things that I believed and taught for so many years. That was very early on in my profession that I was working under the institute that was the wellness institute that led the research behind vegan, plant-based, no oils, no fat diets. And then started same thing as you where my hemoglobin A1C was higher than I would expect it to be in my early 20s in eating that way. I had a number of nutrient deficiencies. My microbiome diversity was much lower than I expected it to be. And with increasing the— being able to address the nutrient deficiencies with sources of B vitamins from things like chicken and animal sources that are more bioavailable than plants, I started to increase my— I started with eggs and fish also. And then I ended up down the road increasing to chicken and turkey, and then I ended up increasing to red meat as well, grass-fed, high-quality sources of red meat. And so I had a very similar journey as you and understand that identity shift that happens when you start to change and based on your own precision information. I think that for women that are in my audience, they probably heard you say those things about animal protein because it's something that we get asked about all the time, especially Yeah. I usually incorporate like grass-fed beef into our meal plans. And I think that one thing that you highlighted the importance of is the diversity of amino acid sources that we're getting them from plant-based through tofu, through tempeh, through our nuts and seeds and lentils and beans, and then also getting them through fish and through turkey and chicken. And then we in our meal plans incorporate the red meat component. And I I know that some women will hear that and be like, wow, that is like so concerning. But I think that it also comes back to just over the years of like seeing so many lab labs in front of me and like how women actually feel that it comes back to what we focus on is the N of one portion that if you can incorporate like you said probably twelve ounces of red meat per week is not going to be overly harmful for someone's health if they're incorporating the other components that we. Talked about in meeting these parameters. And then if you're testing your labs and you're actually— like, what we see is that as women focus on an insulin-sensitizing diet that's blood sugar balanced, that meets these other components and does incorporate a source of grass-fed beef once a week, or, you know, like as a recipe a week, that they actually see improvements in all these markers— their cholesterol, their LDL cholesterol, their, their actual fasting insulin that can increase the risk of heart disease and cancer. And so I think that what it comes down to, like you said is this precision model of testing your labs to be able to see what that leads to that we know then could either increase or decrease your risk of disease. Do you agree with that or would you disagree? Because I actually love the fact that we can have this conversation with each other because I think that there is so much confusion and that people think it's just like, this is the answer, this isn't the answer. And then they have, like, one of my prior guests on the show is Dr. Elizabeth Boham, who's the medical director of Ultra Wellness Center, who's a Who's been an amazing mentor to me, who's a breast cancer survivor and said, I eat grass-fed beef once or twice a week as a breast cancer survivor. And that is something that I recommend to my patients. And I think that the importance that a lot of people miss in podcasts when they think like, okay, I'm leaving with this person's recommendations versus this person's recommendations, what is right is that we have to have a more nuanced conversation about it.

Yeah. No, Brigid, I— what you're saying is so important. And again, it comes down to making sure you get what you need. And when you're getting enough of that fiber, you're detoxifying. People don't realize it. And broccoli, like, it upregulates the NRF2. That's a detoxification signaling pathway. So when you're getting enough of the fiber in these cruciferous vegetables and the phytonutrients, you're detoxifying. It's kind of like God had it all figured out, right? Your body manages some of those things that you may be getting that through our eyes when looking at it critically isn't the best thing, but when balanced, it's not going to hurt you. And there are some micronutrients that some will state they feel better once they have. The data is interesting. You know, there's a subset of people, women with metastatic cancer, You know, myself after a heart transplant, I'm a very unique, like, N of 1 where I have different reasons why I opt not to have it and I don't miss it, right? It's not like I crave it. I kind of have an aversion to it. So it's not something that I'm drawn to. And I also listen to that. I think the most important thing here is to go back to the American Institute for Cancer Research. This is the largest governing body of research when it comes to lifestyle and cancer occurrence. rates as well as cancer survivorship. And they themselves don't say that you can never have red meat. Okay? They say this 12 to 16 ounces, you know, and I think that's a very important take-home message. That's not enough to hurt you. But there's some places, you know, in America, some people in America that they'll have 12 ounces a day. That's just— Mm-hmm. Much. And so this is where we just have to step back and look at the red meat as a condiment. And if you enjoy it and it creates pleasure and it's part of your favorite family cuisine and you're weaving in all these other healthy things, I just don't see that it can ever be a problem. And I never really told women that they had to avoid it. I said make it more for special occasions and use it more as a condiment, making sure you get what I need you to get. And we, we should, you know, we've emphasized the need for fiber, but I do feel protein is very important. And I feel in the plant-based community they really dismiss that significantly. And I was one that always stood by, no, I support plant-based, but you need to get enough protein plant-based, and you actually probably need more if you're plant-based because the amino acids are a little harder to absorb, particularly as you get older. So I always want patients to get 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram. That is the worst number in the world. So a more easy number for you is 0.54 to 0.7 grams per pound of your ideal body weight. So, 0.54 to 0.7 grams per pound. You know, because I do enjoy running, I kind of dial mine up towards— and postmenopausal, I dial it up towards that, that, that higher range with a preference towards more plant proteins for myself. And, I do love that Women's Health study. So, you know, if you're having a little bit of red meat, a little bit of poultry, having your fish, still add some beans, some lentils, some edamame. Let's talk about soy.

Let's talk about soy. Let's talk about soy.

There's a lot of great research with soy, right? And so I think that's sometimes why maybe some of the animal studies get villainized, because maybe they're just missing some of these other things to balance it out. And soy is one of the things that's the biggest myth that we've ever seen when it comes to traditional food science. And it's because that original science was done in rodents. So remember I said one of the things that you should do whenever you hear a study that just doesn't make sense is, was the study done in humans? So the original soy research was done in rodents. We're not rodents. And what this rodent study, they were giving it tons of soy, it showed that they developed tumors in the mammary tissue. When we actually put the soy into human studies, we see these long studies that there's always this signal that there's an association of a reduced risk of breast cancer. The American Cancer Society has actually published this. There was a beautiful review of the data that showed that even after a breast cancer diagnosis, that increased consumption of soy women that had more versus less had a reduced risk of breast cancer recurrence. Wow. Huge, by 25%. You know, this is like exciting data. There's also data for women who are menopausal that show that having a half a cup of edamame a day in women on a plant-predominant diet had an 88% reduction in moderate to severe hot flashes. So, you know, in my, in my time at Mayo Clinic, I worked with women. 75% of breast cancers are hormone receptor Positive breast cancers. And these are women that would have to go on medications that would basically lower their estrogen levels, so they would get tons of hot flashes. And so the first thing that I would use would actually be soy. I would use soy, some magnesium, acupuncture, and then sometimes we would have to rely on pharmaceuticals to help the hot flashes further. But holy cow, the soy really did it for women. And I felt it in myself too, because when I would travel, I wouldn't be able to get quite as much soy all the time. And the hot flashes would come back and I'd go and add the soy back. So things like edamame, tofu, tempeh, soy milk. I always put soy milk in my coffee. I enjoy it. But try to get some soy. You know, obviously if you have an allergy to soy, don't worry about it. You have an allergy. I just trust that. Trust your body that that's the reason your body is telling you something. You wouldn't want to consume it. But for those of you that enjoy soy, you can absolutely enjoy it. And it's a great way to get plant protein. It's a fun little snack, great for kids. We know that that soy consumption probably matters most in young girls when they're adolescents. That's probably when we're gonna get most benefit when the breast tissue is developing. That would be the most time, most optimal time to try to get soy into a young girl's life.

And ideally organic and unprocessed versions of soy. I think that that's the big differentiator is that a lot of the demonization around soy is like a lot of the soy protein isolate And processed versions of soy that are in these highly processed foods that are, you know, the vegan alternatives that aren't necessarily going to have these same benefits as what you're talking about with the edamame, tofu, and tempeh.

Yeah, that's a really important message. You know, the research is really terrible, you know, and it's so funny because when we do these podcasts, there's always people that critique it and folks will say, well, there's not any research that says that organic is better. Well, it's true. I just say it's kind of a common sense thing, you know. And there is some research that points to it's better. And I don't know that we're ever going to get the research out there, but I don't think pesticides were meant for us. I, I feel very strongly about that. So if you can afford organic, I would try to do it. And soy is one of those products that is really overgrown, you know. It's grown a lot because it's, it's the primary food source for agriculture. So, you know, you— we do need to keep that in mind too, that a lot of our agricultural foods that we're consuming, those animals are eating soy that that may be sprayed and/or that is genetically modified. The majority of genetically modified soy is generally that for animal agricultural use. Human soy edamame is generally going to have that stamp on it, GMO-free. We don't really understand what any of that means in human science. Again, so I like to be really clear with where the data is, but for my own family and for my own Yes, I I do buy it that way when I go to an Asian restaurant. Yes, I order soy, and I don't ask if it's genetically modified or if it's organic. I just enjoy it. I I kind of like to live in harmony. I don't get so calculated, and I don't always. I just don't live in fear. You know, I think that that's an important lesson. I'm not held hostage to my diet. I eat because it elevates me. I think food is so beautiful with all those colors, and if I'm at a restaurant and it's not. organic. I just don't worry about it. I, you know, I do really good when I'm at home. When I'm out, you know, it's a little bit harder. I still order the healthy food though, you know, always being mindful of everything we've talked about today when I order that food at the restaurant.

I love your love for food and using food as medicine. When you talk about food, like on the Mel Robbins Show and so many other amazing podcasts that you've been on that people can go and listen to, but you like talk about food in the most amazing way that's like, yes, food is our most powerful form of medicine. And I'd love for you to just highlight the love that you have for phytonutrients and polyphenols because I could like nerd out for an entire episode with you on this, but I'd love for you to just be able to share this enthusiasm in the science that you are so eloquent at speaking at.

Oh, Brigid, that, that means so much. And You know, I think it's because I'm— I shouldn't even be alive. You know, I'm, I'm so blessed to be here with you and to be able to speak to your audience. And I just get so tickled out of everything in life. And I think everything that I do in life is so amplified because of it. So when I look at my food and it's like this beautiful array of colors, and when you look at the research that's linked to that beautiful array of colors, first, that big diversity of colorful vegetables and fruits and, you know, whole grains, nuts, seeds, beans, All these delicious plant foods you get, it really augments the gut microbiome. You know, and we really know that the animal proteins don't. So it's, it's really important to get this big variety and diversity of plant foods. That's the best thing you could do for your gut microbiome. And the gut microbiome's gonna, you know, help to govern how happy you are. It's gonna help to govern your immune system. And this is so, so important. And of course, as an integrative cancer specialist, when it comes to food and when it comes to our gene expression, Our ability to turn on genes that help to put the brakes on cancer. That is cool. And there are some foods that can actually do that. There's some phytonutrients that can help with that. Things like anthocyanins. So, you know, those anthocyanins are in berries. There's some cool berry research, both for cancer prevention as well as cancer survivorship. We also see it for brain health. We see it with heart health. Makes sense, right? This isn't about one disease. It's about all the chronic diseases we're trying to mitigate. So anthocyanins. That purple or that red hue in vegetables or fruits. And the vegetable that's my favorite is the purple sweet potatoes. And, you know, the purple sweet potatoes are like a power punch of antioxidants, and it has this superpower of about 150% more antioxidants in those purple sweet potatoes. I know they're hard for some people to find, so ask your local grocer if they could carry them for you. I've tried to grow them in my yard. I've been unfortunately very unsuccessful, so I'm going to keep trying more, but I'm determined. And once I grow one, I'm gonna share it with the world. There's this woman that's in North Carolina, I guess, like in the, in the rural areas, and she has a purple sweet potato farm. This isn't Stokes, but she has a purple sweet potato farm. And so I'm trying to get in touch with her and be like, oh, can we do like something where we send people these little seedlings? Like, everyone wants your seedlings so we can grow these purple sweet potatoes. They're like God's gift. I eat one a day, sometimes 2. They're so good. I'll put like 4 of them on a cookie sheet. I'll put them like 300, 350 in the oven. I'll just bake And you can just like bite them. They're delicious. Just try them. They're this glorious color. They're literally like the most beautiful color you've ever seen in the world. So, but you can get, you can get kind of tricked if you're at the grocery store and you see that purple, you know, skin, you take it home, you heat it up and you open it, it's white. You bought the wrong ones. So at the grocery store, I would snap off a little corner and be like, oh, is this purple? So try them. Let us know what you guys think. Okay. So you got, you got the message about anthocyanins. Green tea is another one. Green tea has a lot of really powerful nutrients for you. And as soon as people hear that, they want to take the pill, right? Don't do that. Just drink the green tea, you know, put some ginger in it, put some lemon juice in it. So good for you. But green tea is another one that really helps that gene expression. The problem with green tea, it's called EGCG as a pill, is it actually can be very toxic to the liver. And when it comes to drinking green tea, I usually say don't do more than 3 cups, maybe 3 to 5 max, because you can overdrink it too and then be a little bit more toxic to the liver. So, you know, too much of a good thing is no longer a good thing, right? Turmeric is another one of those that's really powerful in terms of the ability for it to be super healthy for us. There's great colon cancer studies, many other cancer studies, overall health studies, but that turmeric is another one that really is is influential for that gene expression. And then guess what the last one is? Soy. That soy we know is really favorable for that, for that tumor influence when it comes to gene expression. So food truly is medicine. And it's not about, you know, eating 5, you know, certain superfoods. I'm gonna say, hey, you know, purple sweet potatoes, berries, broccoli, blah. No, just get a wide variety. And if you hate one of those things and you just don't like it, don't put yourself through that. Just do the things that you enjoy. Make it simple. Food is expensive, and especially if you're on the go, I do a lot of frozen vegetables and fruits. The majority of what I do is actually frozen. It just makes it easier, and you don't need to worry about that. You're gonna get the same amount of nutrients. There's actually research that's pointed that frozen berries, because they pick it, freeze it, may have actually more nutrients than fresh. It's hard to believe, but point is, is you're not getting necessarily a deficit just because you're buying frozen. It's probably gonna be pretty much a wash. Give or take either direction.

Which I love. Okay. To wrap us up, I love you just said that you shouldn't even be alive. And so what, for anyone that is new to you or that hasn't heard your health journey, can you share your health journey and the goal that you have around aliveness and not just survival?

Oh, thanks, Brigid. You know, first of all, I would say that my journey is so unique and I would never want someone to compare their journey to mine cuz it seems like I just got through so easy and I was just given this gift of being born into a family of deep love. I never had uncertainty as a child, and that set the stage for just true bliss as an adult with knowing and acceptance that despite massive amounts of adversity, everything was always going to be okay. And I had faith in my life too. You know, you look at the Blue Zones, areas of the world where people live to be 100, they have low levels of chronic disease, and they're very happy. And the one thing in the Blue Zones, you know, people will scrutinize their, their science and research, but at the end of the day, they had community, they had faith, they had love. love, and they overall ate healthy and they moved regularly. I think we can learn a lot from those communities, whether it's deep science or not. There's still a trend towards they were really healthy. But faith, belief in something bigger than yourself matters so much because, you know, I, I knew I was really obsessed with healthy living at a, at a young age. And maybe obsession isn't a healthy word, but it kind of is when it's your profession. You end up being pretty passionate about it. And I just loved healthy aging from the age of 4, truly. And I, I was really curious. And from a young age, I wanted to try to discover And solve the mystery of what does it take to be a healthy human to the oldest person in the world. And my undergraduate studies were in exercise physiology and nutrition. I went on to medical school. In medical school, I was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. I was given 3 months to live, believe it or not. Crazy. 3 months to live without treatment, 20 months to live with treatment. This was back in the year 2000 when people— it was— cancer was very different And people just didn't really survive, and young people never got cancer back then. So, you know, I went through chemotherapy many, many months, a bone marrow transplant where I was in the hospital for many, many weeks, radiation therapy. And unfortunately, as I shared with you, that gene mutation I have increased my risk of developing heart failure, cardiomyopathy. So because of those cancer treatments, I did develop end-stage heart failure at the age of 29. A few months after my daughter was born. And my ejection fraction was 8%, which is really not compatible with life. It's a very concerning thing for a young person. As you can imagine, I lived 18 years with heart failure. In 2016, I actually had a near-death experience where my heart stopped as a flatline and it wasn't able to be resuscitated even with a defibrillator for about 4 minutes. It was at that point that they listed me for heart transplant and I It was successfully transplanted in 2001, February 5th, 2001. The gift of life. I mean, oh my gosh, waking up from that heart transplant with the gift from someone else, you know. So now I live a life that's one that is because of a stranger. She actually was an IV drug user, which is really interesting. There's a backstory to that. But how beautiful that I'm able to give her this truly glorious life. And, you know, people, I think, sometimes wonder, like, did you ever ask why? I never asked why. I just trusted that there was a reason why I went through what I went through. And if I can be a source of inspiration for anyone listening, then I'm so happy that I went through it. You know, there was a deep lesson in what I went through about the art of acceptance. I never battled. I never fought. I do read that there's some things online that she battled or she fought. There was never any of that. You know, I just trusted. I trusted that this was the life that was intended for me. And after I overcame each level of adversity, it was like I ascended this escalator of existence that just brought me to this place like pure bliss. Like when you're given adversity, if you try to force yourself through It's like you're walking into a wave, right? It's like, ooh, you keep on bouncing back. But if you turn around and you kind of go with, with the wave, you all of a sudden get power and momentum. And that's exactly what I did. I would just kind of like grab the wave and like let it kind of push me forward. And that momentum carried me through with trust and love and support of everyone around me. And so I'm just so grateful for all the doctors, for all my friends, for everyone that's always been there for me. And then for you. To trust me to kind of share this message forward, one that certainly isn't perfect, but one that worked absolutely for me. So I just, I'm so madly in love with life. And, you know, if this is my last minute, it was great. And that's how I live. I just live every minute so incredibly fully. And it's, it's not a turbulent, it's not like a toxic positivity. It's truly just a genuine gratefulness that I've been given this second chance and to move forward and do good work for others.

Wow. You are such an inspiration. You are just the joy and the positivity that you radiate and to really not only send this message of food is medicine and let's do precision medicine and better understand your genome, but to just the energy that you show up with and that you exude in every interview, in every interaction is, I think, probably the largest impact that you have on the world because of just the joy and love and energy that you bring to others that are around you. So I am so grateful for you being here today and for you sharing your message and your energy and your love with us and all of the work that you have worked towards. Can you share with everyone where they can find you and benefit from all the amazing things that you're putting out into

Oh, Brigid, you're so sweet. Thank you so much. I love you. And I just, I adore people. I love people. So reach out to me. I am on social media. It's so funny, you know, I try to do those reels and I like, I'll, I'll try to do one and I'll do like 32 tries and they're awful. I delete them. I'm the worst. Like, I could talk all day long to you, but you put that camera in front of my face and like, I don't know what to say. So I'm not very good at reels. I'm trying.

I love your reels. They're so authentic. I love them.

So I delete more than I ever post, but I'm trying to get better. So I'm at Dr. Dawn Musalem on Instagram. I don't do TikToks because, you know, I'm not the queen of reels, but I'm gonna try my best. I always say I'm gonna try my best to post more. Um, but let me know, you know, I think one thing I've thought about doing is when people send messages like, hey, I have this question, like trying to answer that question for— because I get a lot of questions And now that I'm not seeing patients and now that I'm kind of in this really unique area of medicine, I would like to try to get answers for it with people so that they can feel fully informed. That's very, very important to me. And to have these opportunities with you, Brigid, thank you so much. So follow me. And I do post there if I'm ever doing events or I'm speaking. Oh, I do not have a book. Yeah. Amazon has a bunch of books with my name. Those are not my books. Those are all counterfeits. And they're awful. So don't buy them. When I do write a book, I'll be sure that I promote it. Like, I'll be sure to say, hey, this is the one you guys can trust. But don't buy those books. And if you bought one, return it. And, and it's counterfeit. I'm so sorry. They're terrible.

And when you come out with the book, we'll have you back and we'll promote it and, and celebrate all of the work that you've put into your amazing book. We're going to manifest that.

This is— thanks for the awesome work you do. Thanks for being a trailblazer to make what I do easy.

Of course, of course. And thank you for being here with us today. Thank you for tuning into The Being Brigid Show, and I'll see you next time.