Ashley Sutherland on 2014 12 15 at 20 01

Okay, I'm pressing record now, so let's have a look. That's working. So, Ashley, yes, you know, the reason we agreed to have this conversation— thank you for doing it, by the way— is because pleasure. I'm working in a group with some like-minded individuals, and we're exploring the nature of thinking and unconscious challenges that sometimes we face and we don't even know it's going on. And, uh, I was sharing with the group because you came to one of my seminars. When was it? Was like, how long ago was it? 2 weeks now?

2 weeks?

Yeah, 2 weeks ago. Yeah, on the 3rd of December. That's right. And, uh, I remember seeing you when I walked— when you walked in. Well, you sort of hobbled in really with crutches.

Yeah, on my crutch.

Yeah, so you had your crutch and you were sitting down at the table and I just came over and introduced myself to you and the people on your table. And then I asked you what you'd done, you know, and you basically said you had a problem with your back and that was it. So we hadn't met before. And just out of interest, how did you find out about us?

Um, I did an online— I do like Amazon Local and things like that. So I found—

I'm doing your life coaching Oh right, okay, fantastic.

I've got the email for the come and come down to Networth, so yeah, that's what it— I'll do it. Yeah, always been interested. I'm a science mind, right? I, I love thinking about, you know, unconscious and the conscious mind, lucid dreaming.

Sure.

So I thought, damn it, I've got to do it. Yeah, I've always wanted to do NLP, so great, I went for it.

So you turn up, so, um, So that's how you found out about us. But on the day that you were there, I don't know, did you have any particular outcomes?

Um, I just, I just wanted to gain more insight. Um, I'd more or less come with the intention of doing the course.

Wow.

Um, because obviously I'd looked into you, uh, you know, I've done all sorts of little silly courses and a weekend course with NLP, some other company, and yeah, and it was very— it wasn't professional, should I say.

Right, okay.

And I come to yours and straight away I just— it was just completely different, completely different, and very much relaxed.

That's right.

Well, that's a good start already.

Well, you know, if you're teaching hypnosis, then you need to be chilled out, right?

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

So I'm not all I'm always like that, by the way. I do have my moments. That's why I'm running this, I'm working in this group on the, uh, it's called the 3 Ps, 3 principles of mind, consciousness, and thought. And I've been grappling with the conflict, or I thought there was a conflict, but there isn't when I, I've worked it out. But the, it's a different way of thinking with hypnosis, NLP, and the 3 principles. It's a very different way of communicating with clients when it comes to coaching.

Yeah.

And, um, anyway, so you came to that one day, and one of the things that I share with people when they come on the one day is an introduction. I'm just giving them an example of some of the things that you could learn if you came and did a full training.

Yeah.

And which you've, which you've decided to do, which is great. So I'm looking forward to working with you in March.

Yeah.

And, um, during that one-day event for the people who are listening to this, they might think, well, what, what, you know, what happens? And as I say, it's a little introduction, and I sort of demonstrate certain NLP models.

Yeah.

And also some hypnosis too, because that's my passion. Uh, yeah, the unconscious mind, NLP, and hypnosis, they work lovely together. So I asked somebody come up to come out, uh, who had a phobia. I think she had a needle phobia. That's right. So we did that, and we did some suggestibility tests. We talked about the history of hypnosis and then I asked if anybody had any pain. Yeah. And you put your hand up, as, as well as about another 10 people out of a small group of 50 or so, I think, or 40 people. And I thought it'd be fascinating to work with you, so I invited you to come out. Now, the reason I picked you is because you had crutches, and I thought 'Maybe there's something quite serious going on here, and we could explore what's going on, and from there maybe see if we could explore some ways to take some of that pain away, because you look like you're in a lot of discomfort.' Can you share for people listening what's been going on, so the history, what was happening on the day, where your pain was, and what you believed at the time before we actually worked together in front of the group?

Um, just a brief history. I've had this for 11 years. I had a failed discectomy, they called it, right? Um, and radicular pain, so pain around the area, some sciatica, right? Um, so I've had chronic pain for 11 years. In the last year, it's just escalated, right? Um, to the point where my last option was ketamine or the spinal cord stimulator. Obviously, I chose the spinal cord stimulator.

Yeah, I hear ketamine isn't too good for you.

Yeah, no, I didn't want to be dribbling in front of my children, so—

and running around like a horse. Yeah. So, okay, so you had—

I had this stimulator put in, which is a large box inserted into my backside, wires put through to T11 in my spine. An electrical pulse is put through. And, uh, I have a little unit which is that there. I don't know if you can see that there.

Yeah, do you want to lift it up just a little bit?

Yeah, can you see that?

And that's from the NHS, is it?

It is, yes.

Yeah, and you said it was about 15 grand in total?

Yeah, in total it's about 15. That's without the surgeon's fees or anything else, that's just for the device, right? Um, and the whole purpose was to try and eliminate pain from my waist down. Okay. More or less told me they cannot do anything for my back pain, right? So I'm on a concoction of opiate drugs from oral morphine to hydrocodone, tramadol. I take about 6 or 7, as well as the Loxetin for relaxation of the nerves and everything else.

Okay. So, um, wow, that's, uh, That's a day.

Yeah, obviously I left home at 4 o'clock in the morning, so my pill schedule was out, right? Generally in the afternoon. I told you on the day, didn't I? I said, well, by the afternoon I'll be worse.

Yeah.

Um, so after the 4-hour drive, a little uncomfortable.

Yeah.

But as the day goes on, obviously I got worse and worse and worse. So I didn't take a couple of pill sessions because I thought let's see how far we can go with this, right? See how bad I could get. Obviously.

So you actually— so you actually, uh, because I didn't know this, so you, you didn't take your medication?

Yeah, I missed, I missed my mid-afternoon medication just so I could really determine to myself, yeah, how well this works.

Okay. Um, just refresh my memory, had I agreed that I said that we could worked together in front of the group before you stopped your medication, or had you just decided that you were going to work with me and coincidentally you did?

Or, um, to be honest with you, it was a bit of both. I was kind of hoping you would, right? You had mentioned that if we had time that you would, and I thought, well, okay, me being confident and hopeful, sure, I've decided not to. So, okay, I would then see how I was.

Great. So, because when I, when I asked if you wanted to come out in front of the group, you volunteered. Yeah, and you sat next to me. I remember looking at your complexion now, your complexion on the day you were gray.

Yeah, pretty much.

Um, so then I shared with you some ideas, didn't I?

Yeah.

So tell me, what, what were your insights? What you see? Because I can't remember a lot of the time what I say when I'm working with clients because I'm in a trance anyway most of the time. Okay, so I work with whatever comes up, and we had a conversation And I asked you to close your eyes and we did a little bit of trance work. But before that, I'm just curious to know, I was sharing some stories about maybe they'd made a mistake and also about hypnotic suggestions. And you told me something about a consultant giving you a suggestion a while ago, about 9 years ago. Is that right?

In fact, it was about 6 weeks after my first initial surgery, an emergency surgery. Yeah. And then I had a consultant 6-week post-op.

Yeah.

And, uh, he sat me down, me and my wife, we've never forgot it, and he said, um, on a scale of 1 to 10, for the rest of your life you'll be a level 9 in terms of pain.

Right. So he said— so that was what got my goat, because then I had a thought about that and I felt really uncomfortable because I understand a lot about suggestion. Yeah, all hypnosis is, is pretty much suggestion. Okay, and I had a feeling that you were quite suggestible. Yeah, so some people watching this might go, well, maybe I've suggested that there will be no pain. I'm like, well, you know, if you're going to take that suggestion, I'd rather have my clients having that suggestion and it sticking than somebody else's suggestion that's going to create discomfort for the rest of your life. And so that's what I did is when we went into a different state of consciousness, I actually asked you to remove that idea.

Yeah.

And so what are, what are, so what are your insights then from some of the things that I shared about Dr. Sarno's work who wrote the book Healing Back Pain and my discovery of when I worked with all my clients who've had problems with their backs without exception as far as as I'm aware, and I'm not a scientist, so I don't keep records. It's all anecdotal. But if I was to pick up the telephone and phone these people, I'm sure they still don't have any pain because I've experienced it myself. Yeah. Having had back surgery. Yeah. So I studied his work and I realized that what was happening was self-hypnosis. I think a lot of— or suggestion from other people that the pain was going to be permanent. Our culture, medical profession doing the best that they can. I'm not saying anybody's doing it wrong, I'm just saying that in my view is there's a lot of suggestion about, oh, you know, it's common to get back pain because it's computers or it's because of this. And actually Sarno thinks that the human skeleton has no way regressed 1.5 million years in the last 30. So how is that so? So I don't believe in, in the fact that When my surgeon said to me I'd never be able to run or play golf, I thought, "Hmm, this is suggestion," and I wouldn't allow it to go in. And actually, I went and ran the marathon, so just to prove that you could do it. And the pain's never come back once I applied Sarno's methodology. So all I have done is taken one guy's thinking, an idea and research, and used it in a way to communicate and have a conversation. Yeah, that's all it was, I feel, with a little bit of other stuff as well. We did a little bit of NLP, but what are your insights? Before we were working together, did you learn anything, or did you have a theory about what might be going on after I shared my view?

Um, once you— yeah, I mean, if, if I had your insights 10 years ago, yeah, I will be coming to you, I think, as someone with no pain, just coming to learn NLP.

Yeah.

Um, it, it, you know, suggestion is a powerful thing. Yeah, they always say that, you know, the pen is mightier than the sword. You know, words have power.

Absolutely. Sticks and stones, they say sticks and stones can break your bones, that words will never hurt me. But I think maybe possibly we may just your one, this isn't, you know, proven beyond all scientific doubt, but in your case, what's going on right now? Tell me, with the pain, have you got it? Is it gone? I mean, you said 11 years you've been in pain.

For 11 years I've been in pain, and I've had a specific pain. Yeah. And I can only describe it as a Coke can being squashed Right, in my spine. Yeah, that's how it felt, someone pulling a belt tighter and tighter and tighter. Yeah, that has gone. Right, I have pain around the area, right, but it's just different. It's— I'm not, you know, I can walk, you know. The first thing I did when I came home, I told you, in the first thing I did is I picked my daughter up, you know, and She was looking at my wife going, Daddy, you should be doing this. I'm just going to tell me off, you know.

Had you not picked your daughter up then for some time?

Uh, for at least a year and a half.

Wow.

And for me, you know, that was heartbreaking. I, you know, I know, I think I cried on when I was sat up there in front of everyone, and when I sat down, I just couldn't believe Yeah, that what we're just— what, what the process we've been through just created nothing in, in, in pain sense. It just— I, I had a, a little bit of a, I say, a light bulb go off, right? About 2 weeks prior to seeing— coming to you. Yeah, I had a physio appointment with the same guys at Salford Hospital who put the stimulator in.

Yeah.

And they do a process. So you have this stimulator, then they do physio, and then they try and work with you and get you back to normal. Same hospital or medical model. But she was trying to explain to me that when my back had pain 11 years ago, yeah, an alarm system went off, right? And it's just never been able to reset itself.

Right.

How I see it is that you are like the electrician or the alarm. You've reset that alarm. Okay. Now what I've got to do is acknowledge that and work with myself internally.

Yeah.

To make sure it stays that way.

Yeah.

And, and to notice little things that, you know, I've still got, you know, 10 years a long time, so I still have habits.

Yeah.

Like I limp, but then I limp and I think I'm pain. Well, no, actually I'm not in pain, but I need to. And it's, it's a, it's a minefield, but I'm getting used to it slowly but surely.

Fantastic.

Um, and you're, you know, you, you— my next challenge is obviously coming off the pills and things, but it's something I'm looking forward to.

You need to get— make sure that you speak to your doctors and get the advice from them to help wean you off those, um, if that's what you want to do. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, well, my wife's fantastic with those sort of things anyway, so she'll do that.

So, so tell me, because you even said you didn't put your— you put your own socks on.

Yeah, yeah. Again, I, I haven't done that properly for 11 years. I have been able to do it. Yeah, on occasion. I have good days and bad days, like, like everyone does with pain.

Yeah.

But for the last year and a half 2 years, my wife has to do it. My shoes, my wife has to do.

Yeah.

And, you know, sometimes even getting my jeans on and— yeah, little things like that, you know. If I drop a set of keys or if I drop my wallet in the street, my wife wasn't there, I would have to ask someone to pick that up because I couldn't do it physically.

And now?

Oh, I can do it now.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah. No, no. Although my wife, again, habit, she still dives for them, or, you know, again, both coming to terms with it. You know, it's, it's a long time. A decade plus is a long time to live with something that— I kind of wish I knew you back then because we could have—

well, you know, you never, you never had the thought back then, and, and I didn't have the skills back then.

No, there is that. There is that. So, you know, with that knowledge that you've given to me I feel that, you know, obviously my wife suffers with chronic pain as well.

Wow.

And one of my goals now is to do this course.

Yeah.

Come see you, do the course with you as well.

Sure.

And my main goal is to stop her pain because I believe if you can do it, I can do it.

Well, let's just let you into a little secret. You did it, not me. Yeah. You just think I did it, right? But that's quite empowering because then if your wife wants to deal with that, and obviously I'm not a doctor, so I can only go on what you've said now and we'd have a conversation, but she has the power within her to deal with pain too because pain comes from our thinking, right? And sharing with you some of those ideas gave you some new insights. You said a light bulb went off, you've had a thought, and here you are pain-free. Although you said there's a little bit of pain still, but it's moved. One of the things that's Sarno did actually write in his book, Healing Back Pain, is that the pain can sometimes move. So what we were talking about is the emotion of rage, okay? The emotion of holding in an emotion. Sarno feels if you are dwelling on that type of thinking, the stuff that makes you pissed off, right? If there is stuff. Then if you haven't dealt with that, let it go. Sometimes the pain can move. When you said to me the pain's moved a little bit, I'm just thinking maybe you can take the suggestion or not. It's entirely up to you that that pain can go. You don't need it anymore.

No. Well, I think, funny you should say that, because soon after the session we had driving home, I've suffered with all sorts of surgeries I've had due to martial arts, with rebuilding my shoulders and all sorts. I suddenly felt quite a large pain in my shoulder. And I almost, yeah, almost subconsciously just stopped it. It just— I just almost told, no, it's not there.

That is excellent, because that's the strategy, by the way. So you learn quickly, because that is the strategy. His son— son of his book— I've noticed with patients sometimes when they learn this, uh, the pain moves from their back to either ankles or their shoulder, sometimes their neck. And he goes, it's just the mind tricking you. Trying to distract you. But again, having a strategy for relaxing more, for dealing with the day-to-day stuff, the day-to-day thinking that causes that uncomfortable feeling, and learning about how mind consciousness and thought works will set you free from those sort of feelings over time. And if it comes again, you know what to do, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, brilliant. So what are you gonna— so have you gonna see your doctors or consultants? Because obviously you've got £15,000 of equipment there. And, and, uh, I— by the way, you know, for, for insurance purposes, I'm saying I haven't told you to do anything. All I just did is had a conversation with you and you've gone up and healed yourself, right?

Yeah.

Um, but what's going to happen now? What's next?

Um, well, I've got a physio appointment coming up and I'm gonna kind of play it by ear. I'm going to ask a few questions first.

Sure. Okay.

See what she says.

Yeah.

And then maybe show her what I can do and see then what she says.

Sure.

And then explain the situation.

Yeah.

Because I, I I want to understand how she thinks, because as far as she's concerned, an alarm system's going off in my body and there's no way to stop it. Now she's got a mindset of her own there.

There is a, there is a thing here, you know. I believe everybody's doing the best they can with their model of the world, right, and the resources they have. And I think to share and give and share that knowledge of what you've learned And to help somebody who might then from there have more resources, maybe a richer map of possibility to explore something because they're in the front line, right? So you're just one of the patients. She's probably seeing lots and lots of people and has that mindset. And I'm not saying what we've done is right and replicable, but you're another one of my clients that's got a result and you're smiling. So that's all I care about really at the end of the day.

Yeah, fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Yeah, I couldn't have asked for more.

Well, Ash, you know, pass it on, let people know, and keep working on, you know, that chill-out time. You need it.

And I must say, that's one of the biggest things that stuck in my mind that you said. Yeah, you know, you need to relax. And I've been relaxing quite a lot. Yeah, nice.

Good.

It really is good.

And you continue to do that, my friend.

Fantastic. Fantastic.

Ash, thank you so much for sharing your story. Um, good luck when you go to see the doctors. Remember, only accept the suggestions that are good for you, right?

Oh, I will. Oh, I will. I'm armed now, so I will only accept what I, you know, I don't want to accept.

So perfect, lovely, good stuff. And I'll see you in March on your 7-day practitioner training.

You will do. And I'll speak to you soon. Take care.

Take care, buddy.

Thank you very much for everything, David.

You're welcome. See you later. Bye.