Activism through positive movement with Sabrina Pace-Humphreys

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding and I'm claire fudge and this is the tribe athlon podcast.

Is to show my grandchildren the power of activism through Positive Movement.

That was Sabrina Pace Humphreys and this episode is Activism Through Positive Movement. Sabrina Pace Humphries is an award winning businesswoman, an ultra runner, a social justice activist and a mother of four as well as being a grandmother to three. She's the co founder and trustee of a fast growing charity and campaigning group known as the Black Trail Runners and is also well known in the ultra running world. She took up running in 2009 as a tool to manage her postnatal depression and nine years later went on to complete the Marathon Day Sable, which I'm sure you know, but it's a 250 kilometer multi stage ultramarathon race across the Sahara Desert. She has since run many ultramarathons including perhaps Britain's most brutal which is the spine race, a 268 mile race along the length of the Pennine Way. She's also now the the author of her book Black Sheep A Story of Rural Racism, Identity and Hope which is getting fantastic reviews on Amazon. So Claire and I wanted to chat to her about her running why running for Mental Health, Experiencing Rural Racism and the Spine Race versus Marathon Day song. So I know you're going to really enjoy this interview with Sabrina Pace Humphries. 33 Fuel Produce Award winning natural Sport nutrition and everything they do is led by their Fuel ophthalm performance health and for a fitter future. 33 Fuel's awesome products have been fueling triathletes since 2012 as well as many of the world's best athletes from other sports like like the England Football team, Tour de France winners and triathlon world champs, including four times Ironman world champ Chrissie Wellington who's been using 33 fuel for years. I personally love their price. I particularly love their protein shake. I think it's delicious but it's also not full of a load of junk. I love their meal replacement which is kind of brilliant for pre or post workout recovery. I love their Chia Gels. Actually they work really well for me, but especially I love their energy bars and their protein bars. They feel like a proper treat to eat as well as being packed full of real amazing goodness. So find out more about33fuel.com and if you use the code Tribeathlon or click the link in the show notes, you'll get a very extra special discount on your order. So Subs welcome to the Tribe athlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining us, Claire. We've got you here to kind of help me negotiate the way through the trail running world. But we always like to kick things off by hearing a bit about the story and particularly the story of how you got into running. So do you want to just kick things off by telling us, telling us how you got into running?

So I got into running in 2009 after the birth of Thousand Two, my fourth child, Cicely. I do not come from a running background. My parents weren't sporty, my sister wasn't sporty, no one I was around was sporty and therefore so, you know, running was very. Something I did not do. I was a bit of a gym bunny in between and, and, and with having the kids but I have always suffered with anxiety and depression and after the birth of my fourth child I developed quite severe postnatal and it was on the advice of my GP in 2009 when I was in her office and was not coping at all. About three months after I had my fourth child and alongside medication, talk therapy, she suggested I do something for myself. What about trying jogging? And yeah, I mean it took me still after that advice a couple of weeks to, to feel awful enough and dark enough in my head to think I'll do anything to try and help, help me feel like a human being or like, like a mum. So I donned some old school Dunlop, some very baggy sweatpants, an old T shirt and, and moved my four and a half stone overweight body down to the local canal tow path for my first ever run. So that, yeah, it feels like, yeah, I can still remember it like it was yesterday and yeah, that was the first ever foray into the world of running.

Well, I mean firstly, I mean that's what a wonderful thing to hear that the, the GP had the sense to advise something that wasn't medicine based, wasn't kind of purely, you know, just what was necessarily in front of them. Because I think that that. Well, how did that help you as you started to get into running? How did that running build up?

I think that what it gave me, it gave me a sense of strength that I didn't feel as though I had mentally. So just the act of moving my body forward of the only thing I could focus on during the period that I was running was one foot in front of the other, trying to regulate my breathing, having a sip of water, trying to get from point point A to point B. I think that it gave me then and it still gives me A clearance and a freedom of headspace. So all of those thoughts that were coming in, especially at that time in 2009, I mean, my thoughts were very dark, you know, I had thoughts about taking my own life. I had. I thought that my children would be better off without me. I thought, you know, all of those, all of those dark thoughts at that time when I was running were pushed to the side because all I could focus on was moving my body forward and that, that sense of a little bit of freedom from the depression. Although I was in pain after that first run, everything hurt. As many people will remember in those early running days, that mental, that mental space, I wanted more of it. So I, it was the days before Parkrun, I didn't know about training plans, etc. Etc. I wasn't a member of a club, so I just basically spoke to some people I knew that jogged and they kind of gave me some ideas as to how to build up. And yeah, I focused, you know, as we do when we're starting running on a 5k and then built up to 10ks over the course of years and then joined a club, you know, and, and then went, went to marathon and then got bored of road running before I came to trail.

Sorry, go on.

Sorry. No, just one of the questions I was going to ask is it's always interesting to hear when people first start running, because that first run, often people almost kind of like build themselves up to doing it. And you were talking about, you know, throwing trainers on and getting on the canal. But what actually made you go and do a second and a third one? Because often that's the really hard part, isn't it? Of, you know, that that was really tough. It was really difficult. I maybe liked something about it. But what, what made you kind of go out the door again and again? Because that's so difficult when you're at that place of never, you know, having done it before. You mentioned about being a couple of stone overweight. You know, that must be really difficult. So how did you mentally sort of get yourself out the door? What made you, what made you go?

What made me go was that no matter how difficult it was physically, it was more difficult not wanting to be alive anymore. And running gave me that, that from that first run from having some freedom reprieve. Anyone that suffered with intent, you know, with very severe depression will understand, you know, that it feels as if there's no escape. It feels as if there is no escape from the intrusive thoughts, from the dark thoughts. You know, I was a Mother of four. I was a businesswoman. I was main breadwinner. So I had so much on my shoulders, and I couldn't see a way to escape. And running from that first, even though it was painful, even though I got back and for days I had dons, the escape, the. The focus that just listening to my body gave me, it drowned out all of that dark, other dark stuff. So any pain that I felt physically was nowhere near as painful as those thoughts and those. Those ideations I was having. And that's what caused me, because I thought that at the moment that the running was the only thing that gave me that. It was the only thing that gave me that. So I was like, even though that's really hard, the act of running, it's nowhere near as hard as dealing with what I'm dealing with in my head. And that's what kept me going back and still. And still keeps me going back.

Did it. How did the. So obviously, when you were suffering from postnatal depression, you were. You were given medication, you were given counseling and the advice to go running. One of the difficult things that I understand is kind of what the drugs are a good thing to kind of dampen the emotions, but it's also getting off them and getting back used to kind of experiencing the full range of emotions again. Did running help you with that part of the process as well?

I think that I see. I see medication differently. So I don't see that the medication, I've never felt as though it's dampened my emotions. The SSRI that I take, it's increasing those serotonin levels in my brain that for whatever reason I haven't. I'm not producing like someone that doesn't suffer with depression. So I'd never felt that. I have been numb from the medication. The medication are basically rebalancing what in other people is already there. What. What the medication gave me was the. The rebalancing of those chemicals. The talk therapy gave me an outlet with an independent person in order to discuss stuff that I was ashamed and fearful of even discussing with my own husband. And what running gave me was this. The space to process all of To. To feel that feeling of, you know, heart rate rising, of the sensation of. Of what it felt as if to inhabit my own body. When. When you suffer, when you're suffering that deeply with mental health, it just, you know, you see people with their head in their hands because your. Your head is feeling so full. It's. There's so many thoughts, there's so many you know, different ideas that you're having. Whereas the running, it made me feel physical, my physical being again, it made me, it made me feel stronger every time I went out running because even though I knew I was overweight at that time, I didn't feel so bad about having let that aspect of myself go as well because I was doing something about it. So it, all of these tools, these medications, because I see running as, as another form of medication for me it's another form of that all of these together did the job of helping me to live with depression and anxiety. For me, I don't see that as something that, that I'm ever going to be free from, but I have learned to live and have tools that enable me to live with that.

That's brilliant. That's really good. And how did you then built. So you said you got up to marathons and you got a bit bored of trial of road running. How did you kind of decide to go, go longer and get, get into ultra running?

Yeah, so I joined after I'd done my first half marathon. I, I didn't feel as though I could go any further on my own. I knew that at that time I wanted to get a bit faster so I joined my local running club and, and I found that for a while that was great and I made lots of friends. But you know, I live in a small Cotswold town, I'm a black mixed race woman and, and the experience that I'd had growing up here that I experienced rural racism. I've always inhabited places where I don't look around and I don't see people that look like me. And what was happening then was not only again was I in that experience when I was in my local athletics club, but also I found that, you know, with the UK athletics club, you know, there was a lot of short shorts, you know, little vests. It was about time, time, time, time, time. How lean can you be? How fast can you get? Competition, competition. And that just, it started to take away for me, this runner and I can only speak for myself, it started to take away some of that mental freedom that I got from running and those intrusive thoughts came in and it was, it then it started to become about, you know, how thin can I be, how fast can I go? That the, the joy of that freedom started to be chipped away and, and then in my own life I was still, you know, mother of four, still running a successful award winning business, still, you know, very type A personality and driven and I had started using Alcohol, you know, as a way to cope and quite, quite, I say quite quickly. But over the course of the years, you know, that became a destructive part of my life and I decided in 2016 to seek help for that. And part of my recovery journey was understanding in my life what was serving me and what wasn't. And just the, the road, the road running kind of club experience wasn't serving me at that time. And I sat down and one night I came across a documentary about a race called the Marathon de Saab, the toughest foot race on earth. That's tagline. It's not.

I'm going to come back and ask you about that.

You might say that I was, I was hooked. It was a documentary on the National Geographic that followed James Cracknell.

Oh, it's a great documentary, isn't it?

Yeah.

And something, you know, I was very early on in my recovery at that point and something I was two years off my, two and a bit years off my 40th birthday and I wanted to do something that was a celebration of making it to 40 years actually, with everything that I had been through. And after a couple of months after watching that documentary, I found myself in front of a laptop with my finger poised over the registration button for the 2018 marathon day Sar.

Fantastic. Fantastic. And it is, I love that if, no, if anybody's not seen it, I only watched it relatively recently, having had people talk about it quite a lot on the podcast. But I just love it when he says, right, time to put the hammer down. And he's kind of, he's already in absolute bit. That guy is incredible, isn't he?

Yeah.

So. So tell us about your experience at Marathon to Savage.

Oh, it was one of the most profound experiences of my life. You know, as soon as I decided that I was going to focus on, commit and get the support system around me in order to train appropriately and specifically, I, I was all in, you know, I, I, I made it one of the key priorities, you know, my kids, my business, my training for MDS to my HUSB thought about for 18 months in that order. And it was all relate to that training. The training process was a journey for me. It again reinforced, you know, it was my first foray into trail running. So I hadn't trail ran before I registered for Marathon Day Saab. I was a road runner through and through. And it was my first range the trails and from the moment I set up foot, the moment I stepped off concrete onto trails, all different types of trails, I was hooked. I was like, why Would you. Why would I ever go back to road running? I, I loved it, I loved the countryside. I developed a newfound love for nature, for the environment and I'd never, you know, I think it's important for people to understand and I talk about it within my book that I come from a very poor background. So we, I mean I didn't go on a holiday, I didn't go on a plane until I was 17. You know, we didn't travel the world. You know, the Sahara desert was stuff I, I saw in, in picture books, you know, stuff I saw in magazines or on David Attenborough documentaries. It wasn't a place that I ever thought that I would inhabit, never mind run self sufficient for six days. So actually I can remember touching down in Wazazati and getting on the bus with everyone else doing MDs and, and finally after hours and hours on the bus, us getting to the bivouac and it was the stuff of dreams. You know, it's to, to just get there, to just get through a training cycle which for me was 18 months, put your body through that, find places in Europe that mimicked the Sahara as much as you could, which was Lanzarote actually. Being there, you know, being there as a, as a woman, as a woman of, of color, as the mum, the, the time, the resources that I put into it that was like box ticked because so many people don't make it. So many people get, you know, if you get ill even a couple of days before you can't go. So being there and standing on that start line with Patrick Bowers standing on top, his Land Rover dancing to highway to Hell, you know, every morning and looking to my right and seeing Rashid, you know, the multiple times winner, looking to my left and seeing my tent mates that, you know, eight of us in this little open sided tent in the bivouac, it was just an experience that although over the course of six days took me to very dark places, especially during the long stage. I would, if you gave me a, if you gave me an entry, I'd be back there in a heartbeat.

Brilliant.

It was everything, it was everything I hoped it would be and more. And I wish I would have taken more time while I was there because I got quite competitive while I was there. I wish I would have taken more time just to stop and just admire more of the amazing sun kissed golden views of the environment I was in because it's breathtaking.

There are other races that are like that, like the exactly same format but like in the Namib Desert, for example. Are you tempted to go and do any of them?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, life is short. You know, I've realized that, you know, I lost a friend of a close friend in the last month, you know, here one day, gone the next. And I am here to experience and to represent for all the intersections that I am across the world. In any event, you know, I loved the Sahara. I didn't suffer with the heat. I trained for the heat. I did everything I was told to do. I enlisted the support of Elizabeth Barnes, who had won it. So she was my coach. And I wanted to surround myself with people who had been there, done it, got the T shirt, people that were in the same. On the same journey as me, people that, you know, the Fab Five, I call them that, that are what I believe you need around you in order to attain any of these goals. So, oh, yeah, I am constantly looking for experiences in To. To. To see what my limits are. You know, to see, you know, where is. Where is the breaking point.

Fantastic. You mentioned this Fab 5. What are the Fab 5?

So, yeah, basically I. In the course of writing my book Black Sheep, a lot of people had asked me and a lot of people have asked me since kind of launching Black Trail Runners. You know, what is it about you? Where do you. Where. Where is this? Where does this resilience come from? Where does this need and want to go to dark places and see if you can kind of come out of them and come through successfully? And I kind of had a think about the strategy that I use in order to accomplish these goals. And I mean, I created an online course about it. But the five Fab Five are basically someone who. The. The group of people that I believe I need in order for me to accomplish things. So that's someone who's been there before, someone who's done it, someone who is on the same journey as you, someone who can be a truth teller. So somebody who won't put up with your beer, your excuses, etc, if it's winter and you don't want to go out. Someone who will be your cheerleader. Someone who is that person that is like, you are the most amazing thing that's ever walked the earth. I'm gonna be there for you. I'm gonna be there with my pom poms, rain or shine. And then community. A community. A community who. Who can provide experience, expert comment who.

Who.

Who share an element of your lived experience. So that Fab Five, when I look back from very, very early days, before I even knew I was doing it. I was surrounding myself with people, with. With those people. And I think it's the accomplishment of any goal that I see, even the writing of the book, I surrounded myself with those people.

I think that's really. That's really good advice. And for people that are coming into these sorts of endurance challenges or, you know, any challenge, like you say, writing a book, it's. Yeah, that's a brilliant process. I mean, I. I think back to achieving, you know, some of my goals, and I've probably done a lot of that.

Yeah.

But I've never actually gone into a goal and gone right, okay, who are going to be these five people in advance? And I think that's a. That's a really great exercise.

Yeah, I do that. Yeah, I do that every single time. And I. Every single. Even if it, you know, even if it's a small goal, even if it's, you know, or if it's something to do with the children or you. Certainly within my endurance adventure, certainly within the. The creation of Black Trail Runners and certainly within. When I was writing my book, it was. These are the processes that I go through in order to focus, commit, you know, find that tribe, you know, plan and do. Don't quit. There always comes a period where you want to quit. So it's. It really is a process that I go through and I've just.

Yeah.

Found a way to. Yeah. Kind of get it down on paper so that I can let other people do it too.

Yeah. That's excellent. Thank you.

Do you think you. You mentioned before about sort of like. Well, you mentioned now about processes, but also about resilience. Do you think some of where you come from in the past, in terms of. From a rural background and being of color? Do you think that some of that resilience comes from there in terms of determination and getting you to where you want to be, or are you that kind of type of person? Anyway. So do you think that's influenced it to a certain extent?

Oh, I mean, it's absolutely influenced it. You know, I was having a conversation earlier today with someone and I believe that, you know, I would never have wished for what I had gone through as a child, teenager, kind of growing up. But. But it certainly has given me. And I. And I think, you know, I. I look at, you know, and I listen to various athletes, both elite and amateur, about kind of where they get their keep going spirit from. And I absolutely. I think that those experiences that I encountered, the trauma that I encountered and, you know, I had to deal With a lot of that on my own because, you know, there wasn't anyone in my immediate family that, that looked like me. You know, my sister, although I'm black, mixed race, my mother is white. My we, we didn't grow up with my father, who is black, and my sister is white, presenting. So a lot of the racism that I encountered, there was no one, you know, there was no one in my immediate family to share that with. So I had to figure out strategies. I didn't know what they were at the time. Growing up in order to pick myself up every morning and go back to school or go back to those places that were really mentally and physically and, and safe. Because if I wasn't going to do it, who else was going to do it for me? And I, absolutely. I, yeah, it's that nature versus nurture thing, isn't it? It's, you know, I believe that my resilience, this deep well that I can, you know, take from does. It was certainly informed by a lot of those, A lot of that stuff that I went through and what I had to employ to, to live basically to continue to live.

I mean, you describe it as rural racism. Can you, can you sort of quantify what you what, how that sort of manifested it itself, how that.

I call it rural racism. So growing up, I have always. I've never lived in a city, I've never lived around community where there's a large proportion of people of color. So therefore we talk about racism and there's a lot of conversations about racism, what that is. And a lot of the stories that I had read a lot about, the things that I had heard were talking about the lived experience of mainly black and brown people who lived in more inner cityscapes. The story of what it is and the experience of being a person of color living in a rural town, a small market town where you don't, you know, you don't go on trains, you don't go on the commutes that are created for you that you can go and look around and see other people that look like, like you, they just aren't there. The systems that are put in place from an educational, from a governmental point of view, from a, you know, sports club point of view, they're not there. When you live in a rural town, there is no pot of money that's allocated to help you to understand why you look different, you know, why in a rural town I couldn't go into a hairdresser, or the one time I did go to a hairdresser, because there is no lived experience within that town of having to deal with people of color, having to deal with how do you cut the hair or do the hair of a person of color. So the experience is very, very different when you are a person of color living in a rural community, and there just isn't the infrastructure professionally, socially, culturally, that allows you to feel part of, rather than isolated from. So growing up, I, I mean, you, you, you would have to live here in order to understand it. Growing up, I did not see other kids that were black kids. So therefore, when you're. For example, I talk about it in the book when you're on the bus and you were being racially abused and, you know, verbally and physically, and there is no other person of color that you can even look at to kind of say, like, help me, or do you experience this too? It is such an isolating experience because there is no one to talk to. You know, your teachers aren't teachers of color. You know, your. You go home and your, Your family isn't, you know, doesn't reflect kind of who you are. I can't understand. Understand what you've been through, and there are no services to help you. So that is, that's the, that's the difference between growing up in a minority in a rural town to growing up within a larger city where there are more people, places, and things that are able to support you with issues that you have due to the color of your skin.

Yeah. Growing up in a very rural part of the world as well, I can, I can empathize in the sense that, you know, you're, You're. There's not people that look like you around. Around you. Obviously, I can't empathize with the, The. The struggles and the, and the abuse that. The racism you experience, but I can understand that. So at what point did you go from being a runner to saying, I want to create the Black Trail running community?

Well, I. After Marathon Day Saab, I had a couple of friends who were mountain runners, and I thought, oh, mountains, that's interesting. And a couple of. A couple of people had mentioned UTMB Ultra Trail de Montblanc to me and the different races that were there. And I just thought, wow, you know, this is something that I want to experience. And in ex. In training for one of the UTMB races, I was in a situation, a B race that I had picked where I was running along narrow path in the Alps, and there was still some snow on the ground, and I lost my footing and. And slipped off the side of a snow field which was almost vertical. And I again, you know, looked around at the start line and there were no, you know, black people, no brown people there. I was hanging off the side. And that's important because I was hanging off the side of this ledger. I was screaming for help. I mean I again, I talk about it in the snow blind chapter of the group screaming of help. I really believe if I were to lose my grip in this snow that was kind of melting under my hands that I would if not be killed, certainly be seriously injured. It was just under Cole de Chavon in the Alps. So kind of anyone that's been out to that area will know what it's like. And I, I was screaming for help, please help me. And five white men ran past me as if I was invisible, as if I, as if they, they didn't see me and didn't offer, didn't offer help, didn't offer my a hand. And what you've got to understand is people say, well how do you know that was race? Well, I can only go by my lived experience and what I had encountered up to that point in terms of asking for help and not getting it. I couldn't understand why any human being would not offer help. I mean within trail running, within any form of exercise, if you see a person down, you put your race to the side, you stop and help. Yeah, I wasn't afforded that help. In 2019. The sixth man that came along was a darker skinned Italian man. And although he, he couldn't speak, he stopped. And although he couldn't speak English and I couldn't speak Italian together he had the strength to pull me up off of that snow field and I crawled to where the snow had melted to the end and I was just in absolute bits in tears. And he even pointed down and was using all the English swear words that he seemed to know to these, these men. And it really, when I finally got to the next refuge and gathered myself and asked like why, you know, why, why, why didn't they help me? And I was, and it was just like a light bulb moment. It's like, you know, is it because I don't look like someone that they love, Someone that their friend, you know, is it, is my, the color of my skin? Has that been the thing that has stopped them reaching out to me or are they just assholes? And I think it's a mo. It's, it's, it's, it's a. I will never know. Well, I will never know. But everything inside me Tells me that if I had been white, blonde hair, blue eyed, that I would have got help a lot quicker than I did or not. And led me on a journey really in terms of asking myself, like, do I believe is this a safe space for me? Like, are, is mountain running, is trail running a safe space for me to be? Because I don't want to die out here, because no one wants to help me, and then what do I need to do? So for six months I, you know, my local mountain training range is the Brecon Beacons. And even there I would be making myself more palatable as a woman, as a runner, so that people, any, anyone that went past me, I would smile overly, I would talk, because I thought, if I get into trouble, I want you to help me. And, and then in 2020, we had the murder of a black man, a black runner in the US called Amoud Arbery, who was murdered while he was out running. And then as everyone knows, we had the murder of George Floyd. And what that did within the black community, and certainly with our mood within the running community, that question, are we safe out here as runners? Was amplified. And it led me to just try and find other black trail runners that had experienced that which I'd experienced while taking part in this inclusive Sport. And in 2020, yeah, in June 2020, we co founded Black Trail Runners.

Amazing. So actually, before we ask you more about black traveling, I, I don't know if you can remember which interview it was, Claire, but it might have been Elizabeth Barnes, but I remember chatting to an ultra runner, a female ultra runner that had experienced, obviously not the same thing that you have there, but very similar kind of really, really negative. Interactions with male runners because they couldn't, almost couldn't deal with the fact that a female runner would be ahead of them or even in line with them. I can't remember whether it wasn't.

I think it might, I think it might have been Elizabeth.

Yeah, but, yeah, it's just I was amazed when I heard that and I'm amazed when I hear this now because to me the trial running community, as is the triathlon community, is just the most inclusive community I've ever experienced. So, yeah, I just find it really sad that that that is the case.

I think that, you know, I think that, you know, and this is what I said, I believe that. I believe, and I have to believe because I think if I didn't believe it then I would, I would, I would not be here speaking to you now. I believe the majority of people are good I believe that, you know, the trail running community as a community is, is welcoming, but I believe that there is a lack of education and understanding around the barriers that exist for people of color in trail running. And that is why we set up black trail running, you know, because, you know, the last census data that we have, 4.5% of the UK in last census data identify as black or black mixed. Yet less than 0.6% of those entrants to trail events are black or black mixed. So there's a massive problem because that, and what people say as well, black and brown people, they must just not want a trail run and it's just not true. There are barriers that exists and those barriers are in access. So geographical access, financial access, just as just two skills, you know, kit 150 quid for a pair of trail shoes, you know, then the packs, polls, events, trail running technique, you know, accessing the outdoors. You know, anyone that has been in the outdoors for a while, the amount of different gates, even as an example that you have to know how to open, you know, these, these are barriers for that have not due to financial resource, due to geographical resource. Those people who want to take up trail running and have never come across the different ways that you, the different locks and catches that gates that can stop. We know anecdotally data from our members that stops people thinking that they can access spaces that are public footpaths. And representation as well. You know, if you don't see yourself represented as a woman of color, as a woman, as a mother, as a less able bodied athlete, if you're not seeing yourself in the magazines, on the websites, on social media, talking in podcasts, you think maybe this isn't for me because I don't see myself represented. It really is a barrier. And I think that that's the biggest learning that I have taken since starting black trail runners is yes, absolutely, trail running community is welcoming. But there is a lot more that the community and especially event organizers or brand, you know, company owners or brand directors need to know in terms of what the barriers are and what they can do is something to help to really make the community inclusive.

It's bizarre. I hadn't really thought about it until I started doing more research on and listening to the other podcasts that you've been interviewed on. And then it sort of struck me that it's when you look at marathon running, you know, lots of black people do that. In fact, all the best in the world are black. And so what I'm. I was just really surprised When I then thought about and thought, well, but yes, you're right. At other endurance events, whether that be triathlon, whether that be ultra running, they don't, they don't, they're not represented, are they? And, and it is all of those different factors. I think, you know, it's, it's about the access, it's about seeing other people doing it. So how.

But it's a myth. I mean, I just want to pick up on that thing because that's, on what you've just said there because I think it's interesting and I think it's another myth busting thing that I want to do. Marathon running has a problem with diversity. You know, it has. When you talk about black, black people in marathon running, what you're doing and, and, and, and it's what people do. So I'm not kind of pointing figure at you. You're measuring the inclusivity based on elite athletes. You're seeing what, and, and you, and, and this is something I do want to, if I can just change one perception. If anyone listening to this, you're, you're, you're saying that, well, marathon, you know, marathon run. There's not an issue in marathon running because look at the, look at the black. But what you're saying is look at the best of the best and black people. And what you're saying is you're reinforcing a systemic, a kind of, well, a cultural trope that people of color have had to live with from day dot, which is in order to be seen, in order to be recognized, we have to be the best of the best. Running, Running has a problem with diversity. And I was at a London marathon event with Hugh Brasher, with the CEO of the London Marathon Charitable Trust last Thursday talking about community creation in running and the importance of communities for kind of different aspects of society. And, and they, you know, they know it. I was at Manchester marathon earlier this year in the 345 Penn Road Marathon and I looked around me and there was not one black or brown person. Person really. So I would, I would encourage, encourage, you know, what you see on the media, what you see in media, running has a problem with diversity. Trail running in that, that niche area, that's an area that I love. It's an area that I'm constantly amplifying the need to address these barriers. But please don't get into, don't think that running is inclusive based upon seeing black runners at the start of big road marathons. Because actually, what about the black women like me, Mums grants who want to. Want to do marathons too, but don't see them represented and certainly think, I'm not Elliot Kipchoge, I'm not Mo Farah, I'm not, you know, so, so it's something that I just wanted to pick up on you there because it's something that, that I hear time and time again as. But, but you are represented because just look at marathon. Yeah. Look at the elite end and look at what, look at what you're saying to us, which is in order to be inclusive, the inclusive is. The inclusivity is there, but only at the top end.

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. I'd not really thought about it like that because, yeah, my perception would always be, well, yes, if they're at the top, but there's got to be lots of people below to have. But, but there probably is in, you know, if, if you grew up in Kenya or Ethiopia, there would be average runners as well as good runners. But of course, we're talking about the, the, the diversity of, of the sport in the uk, aren't we? Yeah, a lot of the people that we're referring to are being, are coming in from Kenya and Ethiopia to race in the top races. Yeah, I think it's a really valid point, which I hadn't, I hadn't thought of before.

And, and with the, with your. I've totally lost the name of black trail runners. What was it? Yeah, sorry, that's really bad. Tell me a little about what. So what are you doing as. As a group and kind of, what's your aim of the group? So how do you tackle that massive, you know, I'm gonna say problem, but, you know.

Yeah, it is a problem.

Tackle it when it's.

Yeah.

You know, been going on for so many years. So tell us a little bit about that.

So how we do that. So we, when we set up, we went out with an open letter to the industry which basically yet said, yes, as you've said, you know, trail running has a problem with diversity. But how can you, how can you analyze a problem if you don't currently know exactly where the data is? Because what we found at that point is that so many trail races, places in the uk on the registration forms were not even asking the ethnicity question. They weren't. They did not know, although anecdotally they look around at their events and they could see that there weren't black and brown people. If you don't have the data, how can you seek to measure the impact that Any work that you're doing is having. So right now, Black Trail Runners, the, the event organizers that we work with, we are the UK central body for the collaboration of, of like race data, basically. So anyone that we work with, we ask them, we say we will only work with you if you measure this as a starter for 10 and then feed through data to us so that we can put it in a kind of central anonymized kind of data collection sheet so that we can see whether the work that we do in association with you and then generally is having an impact. So, so we, we call ourselves a community and campaigning charity. We came a charity last June, June 2021. Sorry, not June 2022. So we're, we, we work from a community basis. We have a community that is, is members who basically are black people and white allies and white allies who want to see a more diverse trail running industry. We do everything at grassroots level such as trail taster days. So we will invite our members to come to various locations around the UK free of charge. During the morning of those days we will address skills, so trail running technique, kit, nutrition, navigation. So we equipping those members and we, we decide on the theme of those, those, those kind of morning sessions based upon what our members feel is a barrier right now to them accessing the trails. And then in the afternoon we will take them out on the trails as a community of Black Trail runners. We will go, we will have, you know, beginner sessions, we will have intermediate sessions. As a community, we will be out there running trails and putting into practice that which we've learned in the morning. So we do that. You know, we're volunteers, we're not paid to do that. We do that because we want to encourage. So our mission is to increase inclusion, participation and representation of black black people in UK trail running. That's, that's, that's our goal. That's what we seek to do every day as well as those trail taster days. We run BTR social runs every month. So we have BTR run leaders that are out there that are meeting up, that are going out and creating community through just going out for a social run next year. Again, one of the things that we were hit with early on was well, if that black people wanted to trail run, they would. And what we came back and said, well actually there are barriers that exist. So what we were due to be holding in September. And then, God rest her soul, the Queen died was our very first Black Trail Runners designed, managed operated trail event which consisted of a 1k, 5k and 10k. Very much about encouraging can't you know black trail runners energy and vibes on Dungeon Constable Downs. It sold out within a month. It sold out within a month. 70% people of color at the so that this fallacy around well if black people wanted to trail around then they would. It's if you put on an event that is totally inclusive, diverse really feeds into culturally what people want. They will come. We know that we started a relationship earlier this year with Strava who are an anti racist company met the CEO there. So we have support from large brands such as Strava and Adidas Tourx now which give us the resources that we need in order to have those touch points with every member of our community that wants to engage in trail running. So you know we yeah there's so much that we do. The grassroots stuff is really important because at the end of the day we're about building community. We're about encouraging safe spaces. We're about if you're a beginner trail runner, you've never done it before or you're a hardcore runner that's been been running for years. This is a community and a space for you but also that senior decision making label. We know that change can only come if you're working from the top, from the bottom up and from the top down. So we have conversations with your CEOs of large and small brands around you know what representation around the board in the planning process. If you're planning events or you're planning a marketing strategy and you want to really show that representation that we have in our that we're showing you we're black Trail run. No matter how hard you try, if you do not take on board the live that you experience of people of color when making those decisions you're never going to hit the numbers that you want to hit in terms of that inclusivity. So we very much work top down and bottom up.

Brilliant. Yeah it's really really good and it's great to hear that that I mean brilliant to hear that the event sold out so quickly and I dare say that there'll be more events coming with in time. I can't help but ask you about so we touched on M Marathon Desaab and we and when I mentioned mentioned briefly that that it or you mentioned it wasn't the toughest race on earth I suspect that you might say that the spine race was a slightly tougher race. I'm interested to hear your comparison of the two but also with specific Focus on your sleep, your approach, your sleep strategy before the race and how you adapted it during it. So tell us about the comparison first.

Yeah, I mean, I love, I love a multi stage event. I love, here's the focus for day one. Then you get to go back and eat and sleep and the clock stops. You can do all you want and then the next morning you can wake up and do it again or do more. Beautiful, beautiful. That's what the MDS was. Gorgeous set up, nice format. Love it. The spine, the clock starts and it doesn't stop. And every single step you take, every single toilet break you take, every single wink of sleep you get, the clock is running. And to keep yourself going, to think that you understand how much sleep you need and then for that to be totally, at 50 miles, totally knocked out the park because you literally have started hallucinating and falling down potholes, falling down boggy pits because you have realized actually you can't survive on 30 minutes. Sleep is, it's, it's a different beast. You know, it's, it's just brutal. And I, I said to one of the checkpoint managers, when I, I hobbled into, I think it was checkpoint three, I was in tears, I had fallen over, I was hallucinating and I sat down and I was in tears and I looked at her and I said, this is brutal. And she said, sab, it's why we call it Britain's most brutal. It is, is, it's, it's just a different. You know, I see trail running and the disciplines within trail running as levels and when it comes to UK trail and I, I keep UK Trail separate from UK mountain trail. So when it comes to UK trail and that format of start the clock and the clock doesn't stop until either you pull out or you kiss the wall at court yet home. That format, because of everything you're having to deal with, being self sufficient, feeding yourself, sleep deprivation, care, feet, it's, it's just constant and it, it breaks you. And it's your ability to tape yourself up. I mean, you actually have to tape yourself up and to find and to dig deep into your reason why to keep going. It was unlike anything I'd ever done before. And it took me to places that I'd never been before in an endurance event. But it also made me realize the power of really, really understanding my reasons why and understanding that small steps, big strides, you know, just keep, just keeping picking it off, keep moving forward.

And what did you mention the importance of knowing your why? What is your why?

My why right now is to show my grandchildren, I have three grandchildren, is to show my grandchildren the power of activism through positive movement. So I use my running as a form of activism now. Just me being out there, just me being at the spine as the only black woman in this year's summer Spine, as the. As a co founder of a community and campaigning charity that is about increasing inclusion, participation, representation and knowing that my grandchildren and my children were at home watching their 44 year old mother doing this crazy distance that it's my reason why. It's like to what they say to you, no matter how tough life can be in life can be brutal, it can be tough. People want to see us fail. But actually you have to believe in the power of people and the good in people. And if we put our minds to it, we can achieve great change. For me, that great change was continuing to move forward when everything in my body and mind wanted me to stop, wanted me to pull the, pull the plaster off and wave my white flag. But it was the why. And that why comes down to those intrinsic values that I have in terms of why I do what I do, my purpose, my purpose as a grandmother, as a mother, as an activist and a community leader.

I think that's, that's really interesting. I'm reading Happy Runner at the moment, which is, which is a great book. But it talk, it talks about the power of knowing your why. But the, the most important thing it says is the why needs to be internal, not external.

Oh, absolutely.

And yours was absolutely internal, wasn't it? It was all about what's going on inside.

Absolutely.

And as soon as it becomes external, it becomes less meaningful and also outside of your control.

That's it. You know, we have to control the controllables and, and so much, so much within that race in terms of weather, etc. Etc. So much feels out of control. So therefore I knew deep in. I knew I had this deep. Well, I knew I had, you know, the power of community and the people that I have yet to meet who were sending me the most beautiful messages and were waking up in the middle of the night just to check on subs. Like, where is she? Why is she so stopped? Why is she stopped for half an hour on Hadrian's Wall? Is she okay? Can someone like, you know, I didn't, I didn't really read too much of those messages while I was out there, but I felt it. I felt so supported and I felt the power of, of community across the board. Everyone I've met in this journey and everyone that I'm yet to meet. But you're absolutely right. If it had been about those external how fast can I do it? How. How many people? No, I would have. It wouldn't have been enough. It had to be an inside job and it had to come from a place of purpose and meaning and. And it did.

Yeah, I thought, I think I've asked a few people on the podcast their why, but I don't think I've heard a more powerful one than you've just given us. So I definitely need to work on my why better. And I'm also thinking about if I, if we had done the ultramarathon that we were supposed to be doing at the weekend, my why just wasn't there. And I would.

There you go.

The first opportunity.

Talking about the, the ultra run that we were about to do. I'm interested about, you know, hallucinations like these external factors and we'll call them external factors, the uncontrollables. And I guess to a certain extent you could control them depending on how much sleep you had. But how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you learn how much sleep you can get away with, so to speak?

You know, for me, that was so I'm, I was coached by Damien hall, who, you know, an amazing kind of elite ultra trail athlete. And the strategy that he kind of advised, it looked on paper like, you know, it, it would be doable, you know, basically like a, you know, a three hour turnaround at each check checkpoint. But for me and the athlete that I am, I didn't get enough sleep at checkpoint one, so I didn't sleep at all. So I'd done like 43 miles, quick turnaround, get my warm stuff on. And actually what I should have done there is I should have slept for at least two hours just to give me that, that reset that I needed in order to tackle the night section that we were going into and, and the, the kind of, of cooling off of conditions. So what I then found is that there was an interim checkpoint and I kind of again came into there crying like, what am I doing? And actually they were just amazing. The Spine family are amazing. And they sat me down, gave me a bacon roll, cup of tea and said, look, there's a tent over there. Why don't you go and have half an hour, an hour. I ended up having, I think an hour and a half. New woman, new woman. So for me, for this athlete, it was about. And I don't see how you can unless you put yourself in that situation. And it's even impossible to do it when you're training because training plans don't say to you replicate the whole race. And you know you're, you're doing it piecemeal and bit by bit. So I think the key thing is listen to your body. When I listen to my body in terms of either getting 2, 2 hours average sleep at checkpoints was good for me. It was enough, just enough for me not to feel groggy. I'd gone through a 90 minute sleep cycle. I'd get up, I'd feel amazing. I'd always set off feeling amazing. And that's over the course of the time I was out there. I literally had probably about eight hours sleep. But I just don't see how I could have practiced that without actually being in the race. And all of that learning around how much sleep I need, I then now take into future races because I will do the spine again and I will take the learnings from this spine into the next non stop night long endurance run that I do. So I think everyone, we're all beautiful beings in the sense that we're all so different. What works, what I would say for anyone doing that, because dealing with hallucinations again, I was seeing numbers and fine art pictures. It looked like they had been painted by Picasso in the ground. And I would say to the people around me, I'd say to Raj who we did a lot of it together. Raj, it's the queen. It's, it's elf. Look, look. The funny thing is he would look down and he'd see it too because you're all, your mind takes you to very strange places. So for me, my hallucinations were numbers and like beautiful art that had been drawn in the ground. And you, you know, you get to a point in these races where you kind of welcome them because the monotony of just going forward as soon as dust dusk tech came and night came, it's almost like I'd be thinking like when are the hallucinations dying? Because it just, it kind of gave me something else to play with and, and yeah, yeah, it was, it was. They weren't as horrific as I know that some people have had. It was never about me thinking, oh there's a person over there, I'll kind of try and go over a, a hill edge or a cliff edge. It was very much like what I would seeing in the ground and, and it was, it was funny, you know, and I was, I was always, most of the time I was in Company I was with Raj. So he'd have his hallucinations, I'd look after him and kind of guide him back onto the track. I'd have mine and he'd be like, saab, it's over here. It's not that. That fine art in that bush is not the way to go. So, yeah, it was a real experience and something I had never experienced before.

That's the part of it that, that I'm now I'm. Now I'm hearing that I really wish I was doing this ultra at the weekend because you're right, you can't. I actually was going to. Well, I planned to run through the night as part of the training. Then my coach for all my triathlon stuff said, no, no, that's just going to totally blow up the, the triathlon training plan. So then I was like, well, okay, I could just walk through the night, that won't blow up the training plan. But then that never quite happened. So I was really intrigued to see how this worked because actually, so Kerry Sutton, who, who our mutual friend and who supported us on the arc 50, she was, I think I'm right saying she was leading the spine race a few years ago, but it was the first again, like you first multi day kind of extended, you know, clock stop starts and keeps ticking. And she ended up getting pulled off. She ended up clinging to a rock in the dark because of not taking, not getting enough sleep and, and I remember talking to her about it. So it's the bit that intrigues me the most. I definitely want to explore this, but it's gonna have to be.

I wouldn't want to explore it on a rock.

No, no, no, no. Now we've mentioned, we've mentioned your book Black Sheep, which I haven't read yet. Normally I actually, I don't know, it didn't, it didn't register with me to read it before the podcast, but I did notice today when I was looking up on it that it is all. You're also on audible. It's an audio.

Yeah.

Which means I should have definitely consumed it. So I will be listening to that. But I read the reviews of it and it gets fantastic reviews. So. So I'm looking forward to that. I know we've already touched on a few bits that are within that book, but I wanted to ask you, I ask everybody on this podcast, what other books, books have you found have influenced you and helped you or do you find yourself recommending?

Well, I mean I, a good friend of mine is a renowned sports dietitian here in the UK called Renee McGregor. And I can remember being introduced to Renee through Damien hall because they, they work together and a couple of years ago and I bought, you know, she does fueling for various books, fueling for training and I just really liked her take on different aspects of, of training, of fueling your body. You know, as a woman that, you know, as part of my, my journey into running, you know, in those early days I was overweight so part of the running was like to help me to lose weight as well. But since I've become more competitive I, there was a stage where I didn't really understand, understand the fuel that my body needed in terms of protein, carbohydrate, kind of micro and macro kind of nutrients. And she's basically just bought, she's bought out a book which is just so simple to understand. It's called More Fuel. You I'm just kind of holding it up here at the moment, understanding your body and how to fuel your adventures. And what she does in this book is she basically, it's very case study orientated. She looks at the different ways of eating so whether that is vegan, whether it's, whether it's high fat, low carb. And she basically profiles athletes in here, amateur and elite and then she gives her take on, on the, on those ways of eating. And it's just, it's a really simple book to understand and I think it breaks down really, really clearly those areas where athletes might not be getting enough to fuel their training or where they might be getting too much. And I think that, you know, I'm perimenopausal now as well as another thing to add. So I've really been struggling with, with my symptoms over the past two years and, and really, really talks about that in here as well. She really understands the female athlete as well. And as I said earlier, red S which is relative energy deficiency in sport. You know, it's something that even as amateur athletes we can fall into the trap of not taking on board enough to fuel the energy demands of what it takes to just to live, never mind the energy demands of actual training. So I really rate her stuff and I really rate this book as well.

Brilliant. Well, I think all good sports nutritionists should have a book that, sorry, Claire is doing. This is exactly what Claire does. So I, I, I, I love the idea of this book. I'm going to look up to see if there's an audiobook of that.

There is, I think there is.

Excellent. Yeah, I'll be adding that. But yeah, no, that's fantastic. And I haven't, I haven't seen that recommended before, so I will, I'll definitely be adding that to my reading list. Now we like, we've introduced for this series of the podcast for the previous guest to ask a question of the next guest without knowing who it is. So you, you get a question from the top endurance athlete of all time, Mark Allen. So, Claire, have you got Mark's question for, for Sam?

So what's, so this is what Mark had asked us to ask you. So what setback have you had that's turned in to be your biggest asset?

I. Yeah, you know, I think that it, whether we call it a setback or a traumatic experience, but I think it is that it really is that experience that I had in 2019 in the Alps, you know, it was, it, it was, it was a setback in the sense that I didn't keep my footing and kind of, you know, slid off the edge of a snowfield. But so much has taken place in my life because I wasn't offered help by those first five men. So much change, so much action. I would not be here sitting, you know, I would not be here sitting talking to you now had that not happened because I wouldn't have maybe have seen the absolute need and have felt that need within the, within the, the industry of needing to feel safe as a member of what's seen as a minority ethnic community. So I think that has been, that is my, that that's led to me having my biggest asset, you know, is, is my activism work is creating safe space and creating community and challenging and challenging the norm. So I think it, yeah, it's that brilliant.

And where's the best place for people to find out all about you? And also Black Trail Running community.

So my website, Sabrina Pace humphries.com I love a bit of Instagram social media. So that is Sab runs miles if you're on the gram. And for Black Trail Runners. Black Trail Runners dot run. So if you want to become a member, look us up on there. We've got a private Facebook community where we kind of post everything that we're doing, send out newsletters, etc, So I would say, and again, Black Trail Runners on Instagram, I think those are the best places to kind of find out more and to hook up and to get involved in the conversation.

Fantastic. And one final question before I let you go. What are you most looking forward to in the future? You know, what most excites you looking forward?

I think that in the Medium term. I think, I think that being the UK's first black trail Race director is a pretty big thing for me. I like firsts, I like shattering glass ceilings. And yeah, I am, I've been absolutely all over, you know, from when we had the idea for Black to the Trails, which is our, our trail event that's taking place next May, May 14th. And yeah, I'm, I'm the, I'm the event director. So I cannot wait, I cannot wait to see with my own eyes the, the payoff, the hard work, the communities coming together to enjoy trail running in it's all of its glory. So, yeah, can't wait for that.

And, and you've already said that that one's sold out. But for people that are listening to this that may say, oh, I would love to have gone to that, but it's sold out. How soon after that first one do you think the next one will appear?

I think that these events. Basic Black to the Trails. I think I see it being an annual event and getting bigger and bigger, but definitely follow on social media because there may be some news in the next month about potentially some more spaces. So, yeah, fantastic.

Excellent, excellent. Brilliant. Savs, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I think what you're doing in the Black trail running community is really inspiring and brilliant.

Where.

How. I think it's also wonderful to listen to how running has helped you get through anxiety and depression. So it's been a real pleasure chatting to you. Thank you very much and good luck with that first race. I'll be following on the gram as well to see how it goes.

Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

So Claire, what did you make of the interview with Sabs?

It was fantastic. It was a really good, like, kind of other side to trail running that we haven't really explored before. And also, you know, to hear about her, her charity and you know, the cause that she's, that she's running the charity, the reason that she's running the charity as well, and to kind of, you know, get, get more people of colour into. Into trail running. And it actually did make me think, you know, the, the point that you raised about marathons, which she, you know, which she talked about as well. But you know, you don't, you don't see as many people of color running trail runs. And we also said that we didn't have as many people on the podcast either, which was, which is interesting.

Yeah, we were chatting through afterwards, weren't we, and saying that and this is not for the want of asking because I have asked several people of color to be on the podcast, but for one reason or another, it's never happened.

None of which you've spoken about, haven't we? In terms of inviting and.

Yeah, but, but it, but it does show that the endurance world, I mean literally 80, nearly 80 interviews and she's the first person of color to be in those interviews. And that's, you know, and I'm, you know, that's definitely not a, you know, that's just the nature of endurance sport, it would seem. And I hadn't really thought about it.

Until I guess that sits with a. Statistics that she was about talking. Talking about.

Yeah, yeah, it does, it does.

So, like, interesting there's when like since she's been doing kind of more of the, the charity work with the, with the black runners and black trial runners, I think, you know, she was saying that she has her sold out event, doesn't she? And I think that just shows there is a needs and a want. And I was just really interested to find out, I guess, kind of why, why people weren't coming into the sport because I'd never really thought about that before. I never thought why. Why are there not more people of color?

No, well, I, I have given it thought at triathlons, you know, triathlons, again, it's, it's very much the, you know, very, a very small minority, isn't it? So I have given it thought. But, but I mean, I guess it's, it's like she said, it's the same with women's sport in that if you can't see it, you can't be it. So if there's not kind of the figureheads there doing it, then it doesn't tend to lead, inspire people to follow in their footsteps. And also if it doesn't feel like. I know. I remember Louise mentioned talking about the first triathlon she did which was, which was aimed at. It was ladies only. And it was basically a, it was just a short triathlon to just try it and, but it was just made it really accessible to kind of come along, give it a go. So I think, yeah, doing that event is brilliant. And if that inspires more people to go out and do another, you know, another run, another, you know, get into ultra running and all that sort of stuff, I think that's really good. I really like chatting to her about how running had helped her with her postnatal depression. I thought that was, I thought it was really interesting to, to hear how good Running could. How effective running could be in alleviating anxiety and depression. So I thought that was. I thought it was really interesting.

It was really interesting actually. And I didn't pick this up with her, but it's interesting when she talks about sort of anxiety and depression, that she had that kind of, you know, background and sort of diagnosis before, but that how running and actually thinking about it now, you know, running, you've got that rhythmic step, haven't you? She was talking about the fact you're thinking to the next, you know, going from A to B, thinking to where you need to be next, thinking about what you feel. And actually, if you think about anxiety when you're in an anxious state and you can't put all of those pieces, pieces together, actually running can help you deal with anxiety as well in that sense because it's. It's routine. It's in a rhythm, it's in a routine.

There's quite a lot of research around the fact that you process thought better while running, isn't there? So actually, if I'm planning a. Some public speaking, if I want to design a talk, I'll go and do it around a run or a bike ride. Actually running is better for it because there's something about that moving along that allows you to process those thoughts better.

And there is. There are schools of thought as well. And certainly from a background in mental health, certain psychologists that I've worked with have talked about, you know, walking and talking. So actually doing walking psychological therapy, because you can process things and you'll find the ability to be able to talk a little bit better. So I can. I can totally see how. How that, you know, could have. Could have really sort of helped her as well.

Yeah, actually, and Steve Jobs was always. Was famous for. If he wanted to talk about something serious with somebody, he usually took them for a walk because again, it helped you process, process the thoughts. So I thought that was really interesting. I also really loved listening to her talk about both Marathon, the Sable, and particularly the Spine race. I think the comparison of the two.

And they're just totally different beasts, aren't they?

Totally different beasts. I mean, don't get me wrong, like, I. I'm sure Marathon Desable is a tough race, but yeah, it does. It does make me laugh that it's described as the toughest race on. On earth. And then you hear people talk about something like the Spine and go totally different ball game.

I think the fact that, you know, unlike we would know sort of as athletes, there's certain things you can't prepare yourself for. You can't totally practice. You know, you don't go out and do the spine. Like, like you don't go out and practice that say some of it is knowledge and experience and practice, but actually you learn as you go along. She learned from it in terms of sleep, which I'm always, you know, I'm always really fascinated by. But also, you know, one of the things that struck me is her where her mental resilience comes from. Like how does she keep herself going? And actually, you know, she talked about what happened as she was growing up and actually the fact that's probably really helped put her in a position to be able to deal with pretty much.

Anything that and her why. I think what, you know, when you. When I asked her about her why.

Yeah.

It wasn't.

Oh, what my wife. This is my why. It's like, right. I can see why that would get you to a finish line. It was really. And I think that's something that all of us can work on is kind of making sure that. Because I've heard her talk about it. She didn't say it in this interview, but I've heard her talk about it on another podcast where she says she actually have a different why for different races. So this, the why for this race might be like she said, sometimes I won't even post. You know, it doesn't go on Strava. Nobody knows I've done it. I've done that race for me, for my own mental well being that has a totally different way to race. Like the spine where I'm doing it to inspire other people to like me to race. So I think it's. I think it's really good to have a clear why when you go into any race. And probably going into a race where your why is because I want to see whether I hallucinate having run through the night. That might not be the best why.

I definitely want to know. I, I think just, yeah, I just.

I, I didn't mention it. But when. When in the Charlotte, Dr. Charlotte Edelston interview, I asked her about some of the funny hallucinations. I can't remember it was her or somebody that she'd kind of worked with. But there was, there was one hallucination where every time they came around a corner, they saw Cliff Richards singing on a rock. I was like, that'd be enough to drive you insane, wouldn't it?

That'd be enough to make you finish, wouldn't it? That would be your why.

Yeah, exactly. Or jump off the cliff, one or the other.

Well, I guess if you liked it, maybe you'd run towards to me even more as well. So I guess horses for courses.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, but no, a really good interview and a, A lovely lady that's doing some inspiring things.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. So I think, I think, I think it's also, it's just great that yeah, basically she's just building a community for, for her but for other people, isn't it? And ultimately actually I'm, I'm. That's something that really stood out for me. That Fab five. I thought that was really brilliant.

And actually how, how sometimes we naturally do that. Because when she was saying that and I think you said that as well, naturally you might do some of those things.

Yeah, but only maybe three out of four. You know, sometimes on a project like if you're gonna write a book, which I, I know I said that you should write a book.

And I'm saying again, it's in the plan. It's in the master plan.

Good, excellent. Well, you need a cheerleader and you need somebody that. But I think, yeah, just, I think.

The cheerleader was interesting because I think that would be the one that, and actually thinking about how I've done that before, that's definitely the one that isn't. Has never been on my list. I've never gone. That's the person to kind of be. Yeah. Be the cheerleader.

Yeah. And, but actually, yes, specifically at the start of the process going, right, this is my cheerleader for this project. I'm appointing you as the cheerleader. I think, I think that's great. I think that's really good. I think I'm going to put some thought into that and, and, and, and listen to it in her book which I shall be downloading. Right, let's wrap it up for this episode. But I hope you've all enjoyed that interview. If you have, please remember to like the podcast, ideally on Apple and share it as well. And in the meantime, keep on training. And remember, this podcast was sponsored by 33 fuel. So rethink your sports nutrition with 33 fuel award winning natural sports nutrition for your performance, health and a fitter Future. It's the 33 Fuel Fuelosophy. Get yours at 33fuel.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon or the link in the show notes, you'll get a discount at the checkout. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable learning lessons. From amazing athletes. So please do that. You can also find the whole back catalogue@tribathlon.com and you can also find out about the tribe at app which helps people find events, find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon.com.