Army to Ultra with Tom Evans

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

The quote that I live by is Basics done well.

That was Tom Evans and this episode is army to Ultra. Tom Evans, a former British army captain, first made his mark on the ultra running world in 2017 when he came third in the 251 kilometer desert ultramarathon desables, the infamous MDS. Despite entering on the back of a bet with a friend, his third place finish was the best result any European had ever achieved in the history of the race. Tom then astounded once again in 2018 when he won the 101km CCC race at the Ultra Trail du Mont Blanc. The UTMB. The principle of an incredibly successful racing year which also saw him take the top spot spot and break course records at the Coastal Challenge, Costa Rica and the South Downs Way 50. Since then he's podiumed at the two most iconic trail races in the world, the Western States and the utmb. So he has achieved a huge amount in the world of ultra trail running in what is a really very short time in the sport. So Claire and I wanted to chat to him about how his time in the army has helped him plan and execute races so effectively, how he focuses on tracking down the marginal gains and what data he does and doesn't find valuable in recovering from these monumental 100 mile runs. I know you are going to absolutely love this interview with the legend that is Tom Evans. 33 fuel produce award winning natural sports nutrition and everything they do is led by their fuel loss, FIFA performance, performance, health and for a fitter future. 33 Fuel's awesome products have been fueling triathletes since 2012 as well as many of the world's best athletes from other sports like the England Football team, Tour de France winners and triathlon world champs, including four times Ironman world champ Chrissie Wellington who's been using 33 fuel for years. I personally love their products. I particularly love their protein shake. I think it's delicious but it's also not full of a load of junk. I love their meal replacement which is kind of brilliant for pre or post workout recovery. I love their Chia gels. Actually they work really well for me, but especially I love their energy bars and their protein bars. They feel like a proper treat to eat as well as being packed full of real amazing goodness. So find out more about 33fuel.com and if you use the code Tribeathlon or click the link in the show notes, you'll Get a very extra special discount on your OR border. So Tom, welcome to the Tri Athlon podcast. Really looking forward to chatting. I, I've been looking forward to getting you on this podcast for a while. So looking forward to talking all things ultra running. I want to kick off though by you telling us the story of how you found your way into ultra running because I think it's an important place to start.

Yeah, definitely. Well, firstly Charlie, thanks for having me and yeah, I feel, yeah, honored to be, to be on the pod. So yeah, so I, I Left school at 18 after my A levels and I then joined the British army, went to Sandhurst and then commissioned into the Welsh guards in 2012. And yeah, I think growing up through school I was always very sporty and it wasn't necessarily the best at anything but I definitely tried the hardest and in hindsight I always looked like I was far better than I was because I would score the winning goal in the last minute or I'd make a try saving tack on rugby pitch. And the more I think about it now, it wasn't because I was better or I could read the game better. I was just fitter than everyone else and I performed significantly better in the final phase of a team sports environment. And then, yeah, then joined the army and I was very, I was fit in the army and really enjoyed sort of the, yeah, the long slow elements of the training especially sort of on uneven terrain in the mountains. And yeah, I had some friends in who did Marathon de Saab which is a 250 kilometer multi stage self supported race across part of the Sahara Desert in Morocco. So temperatures up to 45 degrees but freezing at night and sandstorms and all sorts. And yeah, friends did it in 2016, loved it and did really well. Finished in the top 300 out of 2000. And yeah, after they got back, went to the pub as you do a couple of beers and yeah, I bet them rather foolishly and probably rather arrogantly that having never done anything like this before that I could finish better than they did. So fast forward 12 months, I didn't have a coach, I didn't necessarily have a particularly detailed training plan. I knew that I needed to do some training, I knew I needed to do some heat prep but it was kind of a throw mud at the wall and see what sticks and yeah, went better than I could, I could ever have imagined. And yeah, fast forward 18 months from there I left the British army and became a full time professional ultra distance trail runner which I still sort of have to Pinch myself because it. Yeah, it seems. Yeah. Fairly mad.

And what. Yeah, well, I mean what a great thing to describe as your job or career or whatever. However you want to describe it is. That is a, it's a super cool thing to be it. Tell me like the number of times I've heard people from the, with A, in the ultra running world say that marathon day Sables got, got them started. What is it about that race that kind of A brings people in from outside and and B, converts them into absolute ultra running addicts?

I think great question. I think for me it's, for me ultra running itself and trail running is the epitome of grassroots participation and elite performance thrown into one. Like if I compare it to the triathlon equivalent of Kona, great, you want to race Kona, but no matter who you are, you're not line unless you're a pro. You're not lining up on the same start line as Jan Frodeno, Christian Blumenfeld, Lucy Charles Barkley. You're not doing it. You're. You might be in the age group race but you're racing against your peers. Whereas with a race like Marathon ToB or any ultra distance trail racing, you are on the same start line at exactly the same time in exactly the same race, exactly the same conditions, all, all going through it together. And I think because marathon, the Saab is a six day, five stage, multi stage race, you do become this tribe, you do become this bizarre community in the middle of the desert where you've got no mobile phone signal so you have to be there altogether. You carry everything. So you've not got a book that you can go off and read because you're not carrying it. So yeah, I think a lot of people do it. It is, it is documented as being one of the harder ones. I think this, the faster you go, the easier it is in the race. So in my opinion for me it's not one of, it's not the hardest ultra race in the world but I think if you are a mid to backpacker fighting against cutoff times, it is absolutely nails just insane. Insanely difficult. Yeah, I take my, I take my hat off to the, to the people who are. Yeah, it's far more impressive to finish last marathon to Saab than it is to finish first.

Do you, do you think your background in the, in the forces has kind of put you in a really good position not only from an endurance perspective in terms of mindset as like an ultra runner, but, but for that first race that you did or that first ultra race that, that you did really well in being out in the desert. You know, I presume you'd been in those kind of conditions before in terms of training. Did that put you in a really good place, I guess for getting through that race?

Yeah, I think so. Great question, Claire. I think that where I think it sets you a part is yeah, you're just, you're just ready to embrace the challenge and you know that it's going to be hard and you just put one foot in front of the other and that. And I think you break down a lot of the barriers that people find scary because it is quite, it is quite a scary thing to do to be. It's far more expeditionary than it is out and out performance, I think because that was a, it wasn't second nature in the military, but it was. Yeah, it was, it was a known entity for me. It's been something that I'd done before. I didn't mind sleeping outside without a comfortable bed. I'm very good at. I'm not very good at many things, but sleeping is one of them that I am exceptional at. I could sleep anywhere, anytime. It's. Yeah, it's one of my very, very few skills. That and latte art are my, they're my, they're my hidden talents, sleeping.

But yeah, sleeping's a good skill to have though.

I think so. I think it's. Yeah, especially in, in somewhere like the desert where it's not that easy to sleep. I think that makes a. Yeah, that makes a huge difference. But yeah, I think there's obviously a lot of very obvious military things that helped the mentality, the base level, endurance. But yeah, I think because madness is of an expeditionary nature, it just becomes second nature, I think.

And with how did marathon day samples go? I mean, so obviously went well, but how did it go from that to deciding, right, I am going to take up this professionally and I'm going to, you know, drop out of the army and do it all.

Yeah, I am, I am a bit of a yes man, I hate to say no. And I just had because the mountain to Star was part of the. What was at the time called the Ultra Trail World Tour, similar to wtcs, I guess, for ultra running. And I was then invited to 100 kilometer mountain race that I had absolutely no right to be at, having never run in the mountains before. But I was invited and I wanted to do it and said why not? So kind of a fairly similar approach. I did some training, but not as. Not particularly structured and then Went out to Switzerland two weeks before the race and then ran. Yeah, ran in the mountains, completely fell in love with it and raced and yeah, fortunate enough to finish on the podium. And after that point I was then ranked third overall, sorry, fourth overall in the Ultra Trail World Tour, having never done anything because it's three races that count, but because I'd finished third and fourth in two races, I was fourth overall. So I was then invited to another race and finished on the podium again and ended up finishing third overall in the World Series in my first year. That got. Yeah, and that was in 2017. And at that point sort of it wouldn't have been financially viable to. I didn't have the opportunities to be able to leave and turn full time. These things take a bit more time and you don't want to just be sort of a one trick pony with one or two good races. You need to keep stringing them together. And guess at that point the army said, look, we see the value in you doing this but because ultra running isn't an Olympic sport, there are, we can't just sign you off and like they do with some triathletes or rugby players and it's like, like Matthews for example. But what the army did for me is they kind of said, look, we can't do this officially, but we can do it unofficially. But you might get called in to do. You might still have to pick up some crap jobs at work, but you probably won't, but maybe you probably need to be in, in camp once or twice a week. And I was based in Pirbright just outside Guildford. So actually it was fine to train on the North Downs. It was great. And yes, that was fine. And yeah, and then from there I had a really good, a really good 2018 medal at the World Championships, won a couple of big races and at that point was yeah, I then had the offers that I could turn full time. So I handed in my notes of the military to mid to end or in, end of August in 2018. And yeah, then left the military 1st of July 2019, had a bit of racing in the rest of 2019, rest of 2019 and very early 2020. And here comes the pandemic. So you're thinking, oh my God, what do I do? But and then end of the pandemic, as races were starting to happen again, I then have a career threatening injury and then I'm really thinking, oh my gosh, I've made the wrong decision. This is, I'm about to be a full time athlete, but not professional because I can't make a living. And yes, that was, that was pretty worrying. But no, for me it was 100% the right decision.

Brilliant. And being somebody that knows a bit about the world of ultra running, having interviewed ultra runners and, but not knowing loads about it, the two rate the two most iconic races that I always hear about, Western States and utmb and you've podiumed at both of those, I believe. Tell me a bit about both of those. You know, getting to the podium on those, I mean even getting into Western States I understand is an absolute nightmare. So tell us about podiuming at both of those and also comparing the two because essentially we one is the US equivalent of the European, isn't it? So. So tell us a bit about those two results and how they felt and how they compared.

Yeah, of course, I guess, I guess sort of putting them into a triathlon perspective. Western States is probably Kona. It's pretty difficult to get in. Not massive amounts of people on the start line, but it's really, really prestigious. UTMB is probably the Xterra version. It's mountainous. There probably aren't that many people who have won both and certainly not in a, in a short period of time because the skill, the skill sets and the requirements are different. They're both about the same distance. But Western States will, they're about 100 miles. But Western states will take 14 and a bit hours. UTMB will take 20 and a bit hours. So it's. UTMB is the same distance but quarter of the time or a third of the time even more. Western States is a quarter of the time less than UTMB. Western States is. It's the original 100 mile race. One year a US guy decided it was a horse race, Gord and then Gordy who's the founder of the race decided actually this year I'm going to try and run it and see if I can run 100 miles on the Western States Trail in less than 24 hours. And he did it in like 23:45 or something very close. And then since then the race has been run every year minus Covid and. Yeah. Which is, which I think is, is pretty incredible. And for me I love the history with it. It's so, it's so random but so calculated at the same time, which I think is, makes it really pure. And then UTMB I guess is the, it's a bit more commercial. It's in chamonix. Yeah, it's 105, 106 miles with 10,000 meters of climbing. So like 35000ft of climbing starts at 6pm so you run through the night but it's wild and I did, yeah I did Western states my first time in 2019 and then UTMB exactly 12 months after knee surgery last year. So in 2022.

Sorry, go on Claire.

Now I was just going to ask about how you like adapt your nutrition and your hydration around sort of being at altitude, being at sea level, different environments because you race your. You've raced so many distances and done so well at lots of multiple kind of distances. How do you sort of. How do you change things if you do change things for altitude and heat and changes in environment I should probably.

Break it down into. Of three different. I have three different blocks for each race. So the first block is sort of a foundation. It basically improve everything. Let's shift everything to the right. So if you look on that the classic Sports Physiology Graph LT1 LT2 I just want to try and shift everything a tiny bit across because. Is it that specific? No, but. But it will help because it then transcends into efficiency and economy and economy is. Is key. Other numbers in hot running don't really matter but if you can have the biggest economy on the start line that's going. It's not going to guarantee that you win because there are far more factors but it's going to put you physically in the best place you can possibly be. My second phase will then be sort of the I guess the baseline specificity. So combining a little. Still trying to shift LT1 LT2 and get as physiology physiologically as good as I can get and sort of try and optimize that while then adding in some specificity still so still hard workouts but in a. If I'm training for a mountain race in the mountains or if I'm training for a hot race in the heat and then the third and final block I'll typically do it altitude no matter what the race is I like altitude. I respond pretty well to altitude and kind of feel like I've got a good. Yeah, it's a well calculated approach. I understand what I need to do, how I can prepare best for it and then when to race afterwards and that's then the most specific time. So a lot of the intensity gets pulled out of my training and I do far more. I do far more easy running with once every 10 days a bit of a sharpener to keep a little bit of leg turnover. But yeah the majority is then just becomes incredibly, incredibly specific. So if I'm training For a mountain race, it'll be, I'll go out to the mountains, I'll do lots of hiking, I'll be using poles, making sure that I nail my nutrition, trying to consume as many carbohydrates as possible per hour and making sure that I'm doing that right. Or it's. Yeah, getting my kit sorted. So, yeah, controlling all of the controllables, I guess, in, in that element or if I'm training for a fast race, it's lots of. Yeah, it's lots of long tempos. Practicing nutrition, that's the sort of the phase that I enjoy the most. But it's hard because you're getting closer to race day, but you're training super high volume because in my opinion, you need to at that stage for that specificity because you can still make those adaptations with your blood plasma, your mitochondria density, whereas with other things it's a little bit. It takes a little bit more time to change. So, yeah, I think that's. That's how I would plan everything out.

I mean, that sounds amazing and I also love the, the fact that you're listening to you speaking on other podcasts and things actually. How simplistic. You like to keep things as well. It's keeping the specificity there, but actually being quite simple about things. Not over complicating things, but having kind of that, that structure and routine, which is. No, it sounds, it sounds good.

I also think in this planning there is the. There is your army background coming out as well, isn't there? I've heard you refer in other interviews to war gaming and kind of planning and executing strategies. What have you taken from your army days in terms of planning and executing the race?

Yeah, I think. Good question. I think for me, I think it's really important. There are. In a sport like ultra running, there are so many uncontrollable factors that you can't do anything about. But at the same time, there are lots of things that you can control, or at least if you can't control fully, you were able to have a bit of a say in it. A good sort of army phrase is no plan survives contact. So as soon as the enemies start firing, your plan just goes completely out the window. But you still know what you need to do and what you need to achieve. It might look a little bit different on the ground, but you know what you've got to do. And I think for me that's really important that I know what I need to do going into the race. I can prepare as much for everything as I possibly can. And then come race day when the gun goes off and things go out the window, I still know what I need to achieve. Great. I need to consume 100 grams of carbohydrate an hour because that is what I've prepared for. But my stomach stops playing ball or, and I start feeling sick or I get an upset stomach or whatever it is. Okay, that's great. You still need to consume 100 grams of carbohydrates. It doesn't matter how you're going to do it. Yes, you are planning on using Morton and Red Bull, but now you can't do that because something's gone wrong. So deal with the problem, but you know how to deal with it because you know what the end state needs to be.

And I think that's, that's a brilliant lesson, isn't it? You're controlling the controllables, but you've also, you're very outcome driven and saying, this is what we were going to get to, therefore we might have to change how we get there, but we are still going to get there. And is that partly. I know when I, I messaged Shane Benzy, one of the former guests on the podcast I know you've worked with in the past, and he said about the fact that you're very good at trusting the process and generating the outcome. What, what do you, what are your thoughts around that subject?

Yeah, I think it's a difficult one. I think, yes, do trust the process, but my process is my process and my process isn't the process for everyone. So I guess I've, I'd say I sort of slightly adapted the Trust the process to trust your process. Find a way that works for you. Me, training 26 to 30 hours a week is my process. That doesn't work for 99 of people. I can't try and follow someone else's process. So I think, yeah, trust your process and it becomes difficult. And it's the, the answer that no one likes. Well, the dance that everyone gives but no one likes to hear because there is no one size fits all. There is no golden handshake that are you do this on the start line or you do this one session in training, you're going to be great. There's just, there's just nothing. So for me, it's, yeah, I'll sit down at the beginning of the year or when I'm planning my season. I'll sit down with the team around me. Not just my coach, but my psychologist, my nutritionist, my Agent and we will figure out right, what is possible this year. What do I want, what do I want to achieve this year? Cool. I want to race a bit. I want to race. Let's take this year for example, Western states and the Bob Graham round For me, that's what I want to do this year. Okay, cool. And then we'll then say, okay, well what will then take a step back backwards and say right, in order to raise these two things at your run these two things at your best ability, what do we need to do? Where do numbers need to be? And you can then take that further and say right, in order to get here, in order to get to the start line, we need to. For Western states, for example, great. We need to be super efficient and then we need to improve efficiency by X percent. Great nutrition. I'm last year I was consuming 90 grams of carbohydrate a year. This year my goal is to get to be able to consuming 100 grams of carbohydrate per year. Great. How am I going to do that? Can I do that on my own? No. Well, who can I use to do that? Who is the best nutrition company, who is the best nutritionist, who is the team who are going to be allow me to, to achieve this so I can achieve that and I just, I just break it down and I work with, I don't just work with one coach. How can I work with 15 different people in their different fields from Shane Benzi who is a movement coach, to a sleep coach, to a psychologist to strength and conditioning. Yeah. To nutrition, to all of my other partners and it's, yeah, it's everyone working together in order to achieve that goal. That for me I can't do that on my own so I need as much help as I possibly can. And would that help it turn sort of hopefully dream into reality?

Brilliant. And obviously all of this planning is really, is really brilliant. But you've got also got to turn up at the time, you know, when you get to the start line, you've actually got to be able to turn up and race the best race you can. It sounds to me like you're, you're looking for all the margin marginal gains possible with all of the different experts that are helping you. But have you got any advice for people that, that you can give that is about how you can kind of make sure that you execute that plan at the time?

Yeah, I think, geez, there are just so many uncontrollable factors in racing. If you can control the controllables in your training. And you know, if you set yourself a goal, firstly for the races is your goal to finish? Let's say it's to finish utmb. Okay, cool, that's great. Brilliant goal. I'd probably make it a little bit more specific, right. I want to do UTMB in less than 24 hours or less than 30 hours, let's say. Okay, well what does that mean? Okay, well I need to get to call my ear. I need to get to the halfway point in 13 hours because I know I'm gonna slow down. Okay, well what do I need to do in order to be able to do that when you sort of break down? Okay, well there's climbing. So I need to improve my climbing ability in order to do that. Right. How am I going to do that? Oh, training. I need to maybe add a little bit more climbing into my training. How much climbing is there at UTMB course? 10,000 meters. Okay. And it's 100 miles long. Yeah. So for every 100 you might say something, right? For every 100 miles in training that I run, I want to climb 10,000 meters, for example. And you can just play it out like that. So you then know when you're then stood on the start line, right? I did. You have that self confidence because you know deep down that you have done absolutely everything you possibly could do in order to give yourself the best chance of achieving that goal. But if you take away the first step and you don't set yourself a clear goal. What are you training for? I'm training for utmb. What specifically are you training for at utmb? For me it's, it's so important. Some people probably say, oh well, that takes the fun out of it. Because trail running supposed to be super relaxed and not stressful. For me it's not. It becomes not stressful at all. Yes, it's probably a bit more stressful in the training, but I then come to the racing part, the bit that is the important phase in my opinion. And I'm not at all stressed. I'm so relaxed because I know that I have made all the mistakes I'm gonna make in training and I'm 100% ready for the race to come.

I think this is brilliant advice. I think this is exactly what I talk to people about when planning around business. Because creating specific or smart goals around each of the different elements puts you in a much stronger position to achieve them. But also, as you say, gives you confidence on the, on the, on the start line to actually.

Yeah.

So yeah, I think I think that's really, really interesting. You mentioned within that the Bob Graham Round. Now the Bob Graham Round is of course fell running, which is kind of very similar to trial running but different. And that, I know is one of your goals for this year. Tell me a bit about how in your mind the Bob Graham Round sits compared to your, you know, your more traditional ultra running background and why it appeals to you so much and what are your goals for the Bob Graham?

So, yeah, so the Bob Graham Round is, I guess in my eyes it's the, it is the original ultra endurance running test, physical and mental test in the Lake District, stacked and heaped, full of history. And for me it's, yeah, it is that. It is epitomizing grassroots with top level performance. And yeah, growing up I, I knew about the Bob Graham Round and I'd read about it and I'd read about Billy Bland and I was like, how can there still be a record from 1982 that's still here today? And you sort of look back and you see how many people and how many incredible athletes have attempted to try and break the record and have just got nowhere near it until fairly recently with two athletes killing in Jack breaking it and you just think, Jesus, if Billy Bland was doing it now, it would, I dread to think how quick he would run. But for me it's, yeah, it's, it's really exciting. And being based in the, or living in the UK and being based in the uk, being my home, I want to, yeah, I want to show a light on the incredible heritage and incredible history of British endurance. And I think that definitely is from the fell running community. There definitely is a little bit of not looking down on trail running, but trail running isn't as difficult as fell running. So for me, I am doing quite a bit of fell running this year to try and show that. Look, actually I can mix it in a bit of everything and I want to get that local support. I want to be involved in the community as much as I possibly can because for me that's this. Doing the Bob Graham Round isn't about breaking records. Yes, I'd love to set the, the record for the round, but for me it's not about that, it's about the whole process and it's about being involved in the community and telling that story and showing that sort of that deep, rich history of the Lake District and of incredible levels of endurance performance. And yeah, for me it's, yeah, it's incredibly inspiring and I've not really done a proper project before. So, yeah, this will. For me, this will be a first. And what better place to do your plan and execute your first project than from home? Yeah. Which is really exciting.

And is there a plan to go and do the Charlie Ramsey and the Paddy Buckley as well at some point?

Yeah, there's definitely. It's just all about. It's just all about trying to fit these things in. I'd love to. I'd love to be doing one every weekend, but I think, one, I think I'd have a divorce. And then two, I'm not sure. I just wouldn't be able to race at the moment. My. Yeah, I've got to be. I'm very, very focused on racing rather than the. The FKTs and the challenges. Yeah, for me, the racing has got to come first and the challenges in the Bob Graham round, sadly, has to take a bit of a backseat so I can race. Because when I then attempt these, the rounds and the challenges, I want to have. I want to have a good following because I want to be able to show more people. Not that I'm doing it. Yeah, I'm not doing. Yes, I'm obviously slightly doing it for myself because I want to see how much I can push myself. But the more people I can get to follow along for the journey, the more people understand how incredible the Lake District is and you can really sort of show a. A great light on, actually. Oh, I live in the uk. Oh, this. The trail running in the racing in the UK is so bad. There's no. Why would I stay in the uk? I just want to go away. And for me it's like, well, I can drive there. I could run in, in my opinion, some of the best trails in the world and some of the most beautiful, spectacular scenery. I'm with some of the nicest people. Um, yeah, it's a lot better than going to France. Um, so, yeah, for me, it's just. It's just incredible, particularly now that you.

Have this shiny new camper van that we're looking at. You sat in.

Yeah, precisely. So, yeah, me and Karen, the camper and the dogs are going to be. Yeah, exploring. Exploring the Lake District lot. So, no, really exciting and I. I understood.

I'm listening to another podcast you're on, actually, you. That you started to do a lot more cooking in lockdown. So is that gonna be a feature in the new camper van as well?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I'm not sure what the first. Not sure what the first thing I'll. You know, we're actually. I'M away this weekend in the campervan, so we'll see. I'm. I think the first few times it'll probably be. I like preparing food, so I probably prepared everything. It'll just be heating it up again. But no, I'm just. I'm really excited again. Definitely bring a. Yeah. A different element to training and, yeah, it can be a little bit more resourceful and just recover a little bit better in and around training. Yeah. Which is really exciting. I've got this not shall we make. Not shall be making pasta in here, though.

I've got this vision of. I remember seeing Nikki Spinks when she did. When. When she did. I think it was the Bob Graham double. And she comes up to the camper van that they park somewhere along the.

On the.

On the route and she sits down in a little deck chair and eats fish and chips before carrying on.

I can.

I've sort of got this.

This being created. That's. That sounds like what Nikki would do. Anyway. It was either.

It was either fish and chips or rice pudding or baked beans on toast, I think was her nutrition for the Bob Grill.

Perfect. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

Exactly. Now, you mentioned within that Killian taking the record for the Bob Graham, which he's now lost. I've just. I've just finished reading above the Cloud and he is quite a. An incredible guy, isn't he, in terms of all of the different aspects? What do you make of obviously having raced against him? You know, he won UTMB as you finished third. What, what, what do you make of him in the sport?

I think what he has done is he is. He has mastered the sport. He has got the best understanding of the sport itself. He will know everyone who is competing, he will know every challenge that will face him in every race and can just prepare better than anyone else because he understands the sport. He is the. He is the master of the sport. And I think, yeah, for me it's. That's incredibly inspiring. He has dedicated so much time and effort not just to the physical element of the training, but in the more conceptual side. And he is incredibly intelligent and trains not just crazy hard, but he trains incredibly smartly. That then allows him to put in these incredibly big performances on all sorts of races, sort of from UTMB to Sies and Isle and. And, yeah, it's just. Yeah, it is incredibly inspiring. And yeah, being able to race with him and be competitive is. Yeah. Is just a complete dream come true. Awesome.

Yeah, I mean, I. I just love the, the way he, his whole focus is around the mountains, isn't it? And it's just kind of different sports through, through the mountains. One of the things I remember hearing you say was after one of your races you got, I think it was after UTMB you got ill. I know that I am subject to getting ill after Iron Man's or after the few ultras that, that I've done. Do you find that you're prone to getting ill after big races still or is it, was that just a one off?

I think, I guess it depends what the race is normally after any race is, yes, because that's sort of the final day of my training and I then kind of switch off and become a normal human being for a couple of weeks after it. So everything kind of goes out the window. I, I stopped taking my supplements, I don't eat as well, I probably don't hydrate as much. Whereas for, I know that if I give myself three, four days of still being strict with nutrition after race I won't get out. But sometimes I just, sometimes I've just put so much effort into a build up that I just, I stop enjoying it and so I just, I'd rather get, I'd rather get ill and take all the pressure off myself. And you might, you may get ill, you may not. But yeah, it definitely, definitely, it definitely impacts you. And so for me I know that after a, a B race, call it, I know that I need to still be real. Even if I want to pig out on bad food or whatever it is, I still need to get all the basic things done. I need to eat really well, I need to sleep really well, I need to hydrate really well. If I'm flying, I need to make sure I fly well. And yeah, it's, yeah, it can be, it can be a huge, huge factor but I think it's fairly easy to mitigate that if you can be bothered and sometimes 90 of the time I can be bothered but when I don't, I'm the one who's got to deal with it and I kind of know it's going to happen, but I put my hands up, yeah, I'm responsible if it happens, it happens. I'll, I'll suck it up when it happens, if it does. But sometimes life's a bit too short for to worry about. Yeah, taking your vitamin C, zinc in your iron two days after you've run for 20 hours in the race, that meant everything to you for that year. And actually you just want to be a normal human and go out and drink flat whites and eat almond croissant.

What do you, what do you tend to do or how much time do you have as like your downtime or recovery or cross training? Sort of like after big races or in between races. Like what does that, what does that look like in terms of recovery times.

For a B race? Pretty much nothing. Probably a day, a day or two of nothing and then cross training for a couple of days but running within a week. But for an A race for every hour that I race will be. Off running three weeks of no running afterwards. But I raced, I raced three weeks ago, just over three weeks ago now in the US and 100k race on the Saturday and I then ran on the Monday afterwards. Not because it was particularly planned, but I felt okay, so I didn't miss anything. And yeah, it was probably a bit, in hindsight it's probably a bit too soon but touchwood I've sort of got through it and haven't picked up any niggles and have just managed to yeah get some consistent training back and based two days ago as well. But in a 10k cross country race that went well. So obviously well recovered. But yeah, it's just about being, about being sensible. Listen to your body and I think a lot of time it's very easy to get pretty head up in wearable technology. And if you're whatever you're wearing your whoop band or your OURA ring isn't saying that you've recovered, then you haven't recovered or people saying, oh yeah, my HRV was wrong, I can within three minutes of being awake. I can completely manipulate my HRV from one reading that makes it look like I'm not recovered at all to do some breathing exercises and I'm 100% recovered. So I think it's more about listening to your body than it is about listening to what your HRV is. And I've got to. I think I definitely have some time for heart rate variability but for me it is by far the least important metric when it comes to if I was to stop. I don't measure heart rate variability. I measure everything else that I wouldn't. Heart rate variability is a fad in my opinion.

That's interesting. Was, what's, what's the one figure that you hold with the most importance then.

For recovery? For recovery I'll get my bloods tested two weeks after just to make sure what's going on in sort of in that probably the most important one is creating kinase levels to make sure that the Muscles have rebound themselves because when you get doms, so these tiny, microscopic tears in your muscle fiber, what happens is your creatine kinase can leak out of that and go into your bloodstream. That then makes your liver and kidneys have to work far harder, meaning that you're not processing everything that you should be and you're not recovering. So if your crazy kidneys levels are at baseline, then you know, you've recovered well. So before I get back into hard training, I'll always do a blood test that I pay for because I think it's really important to make sure that levels are back to normal and there's nothing going on that you necessarily don't feel. But I think honestly I. I track everything sort of numbers wise, but. And I fill in a form, a sheet on my phone every morning. But the most important metric is how I feel between 1 and 10.

I think that's a really important point that you bring in, actually, and you've mentioned it right at the very beginning about, you know, it's. I can't remember the exact words you used, but it's your, your planning, your preparation. And actually, you know, it is individual and, you know, I'm a great believer actually in, in kind of theory versus practice. And you've got to take that, that athlete or that person and see how they kind of recover. So it's really interesting to hear. You know, we've talked before, haven't we, Charlie, on the podcast about kind of wearable technologies and different people have sort of different ideas on it. And it's really interesting to kind of hear your take on it, in terms of. Which I think is great. In terms of. Listen to your body, yes, there's metrics, listen to your body, and there's some things that you take, such as blood biomarkers, that actually really help you to recover. So it's really good to hear that kind of, that side of, kind of the, you know, the very practical kind of nature to it as well, and simplistic nature to it actually as well.

Yeah, I think it's. I think it's super important. You can. There are far too many overcomplicated things in life and you can. People sometimes end up not doing their run sessions because they're too complicated. Whereas for me, it's. I would rather things, yes, we do some complicated things, but I would rather it be simple, easy to understand, easy to digest. And it then becomes far easier to go out and do it or measure it or whatever it is. So that's not a barrier to performance at all.

Brilliant. Excellent. Now obviously ultra running has risen in popularity massively over in the last few years. I'm not entirely sure I think it's coming into the Olympics, isn't it? But it was. I read an article that it said it was and then I couldn't find any follow up to that. So do you think it will appear in the Olympics? Because I'm not sure there's any certainty around it.

So it is my understanding at the moment that it is not being. It's definitely not at Paris. It's. I think it will eventually become an Olympic sport. That is because it is growing so quickly and in my opinion it takes all of the Olympic spirits bullet points that you need to hit for it to become. For it to be a sport. I think where old Johnny has traditionally stumbled a little bit is because there is no. Because it is a. It's a commercial sport. There is no overarching governing body. The governing bodies or the people who are closest to governing bodies are businesses who want to make as much money as possible and grow the sport as much as possible so they can make more money. And for them, that's. Who am I to say that's right or wrong? I'm incredibly fortunate that I'm a professional athlete in this sport and I can make a good living out of it. But because there is no national governing body, it's very difficult to decide how. What sort of race would you do? Would you do a UTMB, a mountain 100 mile race that one person might win? Would you do a hilly 50 kilometer race that a completely different athlete would win? Or would you do a 100 km on the track? And there's no. Because there is no. Oh, because Ultron is such a diverse sport, Old running. Yeah. Who's. Who is a better ultra Runner, a 50 kilometer road ultra runner or a 100 mile mountain runner? Because there's no, there's no definition of it. So in the trail running World championships, I think there are seven different races so that you can have seven trail running world champions or 14 because male and female. And it's, it's just so. Yeah, it's very difficult because there is so there's so much. It's great because there's so much inclusion. There's so many different distances so more people can take part. But at the same time it then becomes really difficult to narrow it down into one event or two events perhaps.

Yeah, yeah, I see that. But equally, you're absolutely right in that it, it feels, it feels to me like it should be an Olympic sport. But you're right, I agree. Is that is the difficult, difficult question, isn't it?

Yeah, maybe they'd introduce a relay to make it fun to watch like this.

But yeah, that, that's what. So you look at a race like the cross country championships, whether World cross or European cross country, and you could take a course like that. You could do a 10 kilometer course. And yeah, I think there are definitely fun ways that you could get people to watch it, but it would just be, yeah, the viewability of it becomes a little bit more difficult. It's not like bike racing that you can just have motorbikes going up and down. But having said that, at races like UTMB, they now do an incredible job at filming 90% of the race. So. Yeah, yeah, never say never. Do I think it will happen? Yes. Will it happen in my racing career? I wouldn't have thought so, but if it did, it would be something that I would be excited about.

Brilliant. Excellent. Now we, we get everyone that comes on the podcast to talk about books. So are there any particular books that you found particularly inspiring, particularly helpful fight you find yourself recommending often?

Oh, good question. I've actually just finished reading a book called Do Hard Things and yeah, I think, yeah, the book itself is almost sort of redefining what. Yeah, what is hard and what is not hard because I think we. It's very easy to be told by someone, oh yeah, this thing is. This is a hard thing to do and you just get told, oh, yeah, it's hard to do that. But what is hard for one person is completely different for another person. The author, a psychologist called Steve Magnus is. Yeah, it's based in, in and around sport, I think because it's pretty easy to give examples of hard things and easy things in sport. And it's almost. Yeah, it's just redefining how you look at things that may be hard, but actually you break it down and you say like, what's the element of this that makes it hard so you can make it. Yes, it might still be hard, but it then becomes super achievable rather than being out of reach. I'd say that would be my, yeah, that would be my, my sort of sports book that helps performance. But I like reading. But to be perfectly honest, I, I find it very difficult to read too many books that I have to think too much. I far, far prefer reading sort of a story book. Yeah. Matthew Riley. Matthew Riley would be my favorite author who is a. It's very action adventure Packed. But yeah, that will be in the campervan. There'll be lots of Matthew Riley books.

Excellent. But do hard things I haven't heard of before. And. And that sounds like.

That's really easy. He's also really good to follow on social media. He puts out some really good short. I don't even know what they're called. A series of pictures of some writing. And it is very thought provoking.

Okay, brilliant. Excellent. I will check that out. That's really good. Thank you for that. And then also for every episode, we get the previous guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that guest is. So you get a question from the. The legend of the triathlon world, the godfather of triathlon, Bob Babbitt. So, Claire, have you got Bob's question?

Yep. So Bob Babbitt's question is, is there a quote that you live by?

Is there a quote that I live by? Yes, there is. And the quote that I live by is basics done well, it's not going to be rocket science, just the simple things. Do them as well as you possibly can. Professional footballers who get paid millions and millions of pounds a year practice passing the ball. The most simple skill that they can do, but they practice it if it's good enough for them. Being paid millions of pounds, it's good enough for me. And that was. Yeah, that's something that I'd have taken from my military days of. You've not necessarily got to be the best at everything, but if you can do the basics and you can do the basics better than anyone else, then you're gonna, yeah, put yourself in the fight and give yourself a. The best possible chance.

Excellent.

I like that croak. Thank you. That's awesome. Right, well, that has been a really brilliant episode. Thank you so much for coming onto the podcast, Tom. I'm really looking forward to watching your progress over the coming years, but particularly this year with. With the Bob grand round coming up, I'm going to be watching that very closely. I hope you enjoy the camper van and explorer spending lots of time in the Lake District. I suspect you're going to be seeing my. My coach up there a bit. Are you Will Clark? I understand you hang out with him a little bit, don't you?

Yeah, I know, I know Will. Yeah, he's in love for. So, yeah, we see each other quite a bit. We've already run past each other more than we run with each other, but yeah, I'll tell them. Send them your best and. Oh, no. Crossing paths.

Very tactical answer. Excellent Tom, though, it's been really good to chat to you. Thank you so much. And yeah, I hope you have a brilliant season ahead. If you want to find out more about Tom, the best place to go to is Instagram, where he is. Tom Evans Ultra or his Red Bull page, which I'll put in the show. Not. So what did you make of the interview with Tom?

It was great. It was, it was a really, it was really good to, well, one speak to an ultra runner again because it's really good for us to kind of speak to so many different people. But also I think for me to hear kind of how he got into ultra running and actually how he became a professional and also the, the simplistic side to his training and what he does with data. So that for me, I think was, was, was really interesting. What about for you? The planning came up. I thought you'd quite like the planning part.

Oh, I love the planning part. He was. We were singing off the same hymn sheet, I thought. Yeah, I thought the way he mapped out clear goals and being very specific about those was right up my street. You know, whether it's ultra running, whether it's triathlon, whether it's business, whether it's getting fit or whatever it is just that approach is so powerful. And I thought he described that really, really well in terms of kind of breaking it down and, you know, if this is what the goal is, what have we got to do? And then, yeah, tying that in with the specific measurables in terms of the numbers, you know, this number is not important. I'm not going to measure that. This number is really important. I am going to measure that. That I think knowing those key numbers is really good. I also thought he was very good at the marginal gains piece in terms of. Right, right. I'm going to go and see this person for this, this person for this.

This person for this.

And you know, whether it's sleep or whether it's nutrition or whatever it is, how can we get the, you know, the best results?

And I think just having that, having that team around you and actually to hear an athlete and actually I think with, you know, different people we've spoken to, we've, we've heard different people working with different people, but he, you know, really talked about that, that team and using all those people for their skills. And again, it kind of brought me back into kind of how in the forces you have your team around you and that is your support, isn't it? So I can see how all these things kind of Knit, you know, knit together and has. Has kind of, I guess, kind of fed into where he is now and, and how he kind of performs.

Yeah. And I think, I think also so that planning is really brilliant at putting you in the best place to be able to win the race, but it's also brilliant in terms of giving you the confidence to actually be able to execute it, isn't it? It's all very well being, you know, the fittest man on the start line, but if you don't run the right race or execute the plan correctly, then it means nothing. And so actually it's the confidence to then go and do it. Well, I think, I thought it was really, really interesting and I think having.

Having that plan, because it's all very well having a plan, isn't it? But actually practicing that as well. So executing it. Yes, but practicing it and then refining it is. Is a part of that. I'm sure you'll agree that with that in your planning.

Well, I do know in the same way that you could tell I was going to love his planning piece, I could tell that you were going to love that part of the new nutrition plan of practicing it. And, and also so I thought it was interesting when he said, you know, the goal is a hundred grams of carbon hour. If I can't take this, then I've got to find a way of getting that 100 grams in a different route. Yeah. So what did you make of that interview with Cheat me? Actually, I didn't probe.

Amazing.

But it was such a storyteller.

It just kind of getting in when he's interviewing people. How you're so engaged in that conversation. I think, you know, You've got to have very much. I'm sure, you know, you're planning, you know, not every plan right at the very beginning actually for those longer because you know how he might need to made a business out. And I don't know for you, I mean, you know, you're a businessman and you know, so what were your thoughts behind the kind of business side of things?

Well, I think so. Firstly, I think he was incredibly brave at the start to go all in on a sport that one particular race, you know, 115 people. So I think it was all about. That was very bold. Traditional running gels became really apparent. Quite different products both in the interview just now, but also listening to Bob on the time he just got right from that first Iron man, he was like, he was saying, this is going.

To be other people.

I've got to go all in. You've got to find how he's created.

Multiple businesses out of that individual. And it always strikes metrics.

It was for the good of the sport. It wasn't I'm going to do this.

I think I can make a lot profit out of it.

It's. I'm going to do this because this.

Is going to make this sport individual even more popular, even better at the.

End of the day.

And as a result he's made money out of it and made business. I thought that was really good. And you're like it was very much like this spoke to him Blue oceans which I mentioned is a really good work for me in the sense that you know this is. We don't work that out. So it's not for example Soleil is one of the general because essentially what that is is occurred to me nutrition feels more like triathlete nutrition than nutrition. Middle ground that blue blue and it just the number of also I guess.

What works for him and I think that's the important thing is that you.

Know you can the different elements that.

He'S brought to you can read a number of things, can't you?

I thought that was really interesting. I also think just telling stories is so powerful in business and you know.

And his goal point around it doesn't.

Have to be how do you do that? So you know the everyday story and.

How he's going to get within it is often the most powerful thing. I think winner we probably on stories that are happening what is incredible how quickly so relatively I feel very interesting. Absolutely.

And you know listening about his it.

Became sensational.

Suddenly you know, you know.

Fly into western states and come in third and then UTMB people are more.

Like physically challenged and bringing those.

From.

The off and you know, you know the drive and the amazing of those people. Absolutely. And we didn't dive in enough, did we? But you know I think it was.

So we've heard other people talk about particularly when we've talked about females in sport. We've talked about actually beer he was the fittest person. I mean as well as actually providing that financial funding to help interesting prosthetics. Some genetics give people the inspiration given the right sort of so that they can see what other people are doing. Yeah. With no real conversation. Incredibly lovely guys. I really hope that he can and take the Bob Gr round record and bring it back to a Brit because that would be.

So many questions we had for him that we haven't asked that spoken to him for hours.

I think I know well he's A professional storyteller, isn't he? You could have literally asked 15 questions and if been and it would be chapter brilliant to continue to listen to him. Just got such a wonderful way of telling those stories. Right. Really. I really like the idea of speed golf training somebody who doesn't play golf.

Whatever, actually quite fun. I had no idea partially what he was talking about, but the running in between, I probably could do that.

Yeah, I think, I think it's a great idea. You only take three clubs. You just run every time. As soon as you hit the ball, you run. You're less stressed about hitting bad shots because you just pick up after you've had three or four shots on one hole. If it's not going according to plan. My only worry would be that if you have to, if you have to pick up after four on a par four, I might actually never get to the green. I might just continually pick up and it would therefore make for a very quick round of golf.

Yeah, it sounded, sounded, sounded really good fun. I might stick to triathlon.

I think I've got a chance with speed golf. I might beat some of the golfers that can't run and I might beat some of the triathletes that can't play golf. So. Although, although when he started saying that people were going around in level par, but in sort of 38 minutes, that is, I've got zero chance in that world. That is, that is unbelievable. Yeah, I can't quite get my head around that. That's amazing. But yeah, brilliant. And, and how's your training going at the moment?

Yeah, okay. I'm. No, it's, it's, it's all going, it's all going well and yeah. Hopefully getting ready to, to race in a, you know, a couple of months time.

Have you decided, have you decided when you're racing next? I know it was up in the air.

I do have some races already in May, but just, just kind of trying to, to reorganize a longer or a couple of longer distance races. So yeah, that's, that's something that I'm, I'm thinking about now and kind of where to go. But it's, you know, it's coming up upon us quickly, isn't it, in terms of race season and. Yeah. How about you? Are you feeling ready?

No, I'm not feeling ready. Even slightly. It's a good job we're not doing Ironman South Africa because I'm definitely in no pit place for that. In the last two weeks I've had an MRI on my ankle and my knee I've got tendinopathy which the specialist has basically said you're not going to do any more damage by carrying on so you've just got to take the pain. So it's basically just man up and crack on really. So I think, I think my plan.

Our ultra race last year, didn't I?

Yeah, I think you probably did. But at least when I got like an injured ankle last year I'd done something stupid over the close the off season to justify having an injured ankle. This, this year I was sensible and canceled the ultra and I've still got the injured ankle. So I feel, I feel slightly robbed. But I. Yeah, so I think I'm still going to do Lion Man Lanzarote, which I did until I saw this specialist I wasn't sure I dare do but I think I'm okay to do that. So. So yeah, the training's not going quite according to plan but I'm hoping I can up it now.

Fantastic. I think it's good to have good goal in mind as well, isn't it?

Yeah, it is, it is. Absolutely right. Well, good luck with your training, good luck with planning the races as well and for everybody else, keep on training. This podcast was sponsored by 33 fuel. So rethink your sports nutrition with 33 fuel award winning natural sports nutrition for your performance, health and a Fitter Future. It's the 33 Fuel Fuel Osophy. Get yours@33fuel.com and if you use the discount code Tribeathlon or the link in the show notes, you'll get a discount. The checkout. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable learning lessons from amazing athletes. So please do that. You can also find the whole back catalogue at Tribathlon and you can also find out about the Tribe Athlon app which helps people find events, find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon.com.