Breaking Free: From Lawyer to Endurance Entrepreneur with Simon Dent

I've always been very aware of my limitations. I think the successes I've had with business, knowing my shortcomings, which are plenty, but surrounding myself with people who know a lot more than me. I refer to standing on the shoulder of giants. And so any business I build, I'll make sure I'm not the smartest in the room. I don't want to be. In fact, I want to be the least smartest in the room.

What does it take to break free from the corporate grind, build multiple businesses with zero industry experience and push your body to the absolute limit in some of the toughest endurance races on the planet? Well, today's guest, Simon Dent, has done it all. From working as a solicitor in the city, to promoting celebrity packed nightclubs, to building some of the most successful marketing and publishing agencies in sport, Simon's journey is anything but conventional. He's also completed the Marathon Descent, one of the toughest races on earth, and is now on a mission to reduce plastic place in the sports industry. What a cv. So, in this episode, Simon shares the mindset shifts needed to leave a secure job, how endurance sports shapes elite entrepreneurs and why most footballers go bankrupt, and how to avoid the same financial traps. If you want lessons in resilience, reinvention and making your passion your business, this is the one you can't afford to miss. So let's dive into this interview with the awesome Simon Dent. Do you know what, when we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees, and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast and every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the business of endurance community. Let's dive in. So Simon, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I'm really looking forward to chatting to you and I reckon I don't know that I've ever created as diverse range of questions for any guest as I have for you today. So we'll see where that leads us. But you started your career in the world of law and it's a really interesting story how you battled to become a big city lawyer but then decided that that wasn't your chosen path. So how did you become a lawyer in the city? And what was it about you that allowed you to get there? But also what was it about what you found when you got there after all of that struggle that it wasn't right for you?

Yeah, good question. And a big one to start with, but actually really a sort of foundation piece for me because I, you know, even though that was, well, a Fourier now, so that was 97, I graduated 2002, I qualified as a lawyer and fills up quite a long time ago. But I'm constantly reminded of lessons from then that helped me. Now, I think, like a lot of people, I ended up at uni doing law because it was seen to be a good degree. I loved it. I love studying law. And then when I got to London to do what was then the lpc, a few little warning signs. I didn't enjoy it so much. There was less of the sort of why and sort of philosophy around the law and the criminal law and all that stuff. And it, it was. It suddenly came about clients in billable time. And that's when the flag started being raised, really. But I was already on the conveyor belt by then. And it took me a long time to get a training contract, which is obviously part of the process. And it's actually bizarre, you think about this yesterday, that over two years I received 250 rejection letters, which I've got all of them still. And I think without being aware of at the time, that rejection was served me very well for later in life. Then I finally got a training contract. I qualified. And then, yeah, as you sort of highlighted a couple of years into it, sort of things started heading south. And I think that was. There's probably a few reasons for it. I was a sort of, you know, young man living in London, burning the candle at both ends. But I think where I really tripped up was that I. I had to work incredibly hard at school in uni just to sort of get to par. I was never a sort of in the top set. I wasn't from an academic background, you know, my foundation of education, I think it's very fair to say, was pretty poor. I was in. And this is of no fault to my parents at all, but my dad was in the army, so I. I spent my formative years at army schools in Germany, Hong Kong, which just weren't great and then the boarding school I sent to because we were away so much wasn't great. And so it's sort of, you know, I don't think I had a really good foundational education. And so from ages sort of 12 upwards I worked really, really hard. So you know, school holidays, honestly and even uni holidays, I would do eight hours a day at my desk just, just understanding things, catching up. So I think what probably happened is that I cheated the system a bit in that I, I worked so hard that when I actually got to qualification and becoming a lawyer I was quite fatigued and I was suddenly, you know, in this fancy law firm in the city, surrounded by your Oxbridge, your Durhams, your Exeters who had swan through, drunk themselves through university. And there I was sort of head in hands already and they were just starting. And I think that's really where the problem started.

And at what point did it become too much? At what point did you go enough? And what was it that created that tipping point?

Yeah, it sort of, it was happening over a period of time and you know, I started to experience feelings, emotions which are very familiar to me today and probably familiar to a lot of people today because we, we talk about them more, we understand them more. But back then I actually went to my GP and explained feelings that I now know are anxiety and depression. But I was told that it was an iron deficiency. So I was then put on iron tablets and so for, for three months I was starting to get clinically depressed and was being given iron supplements to count. I was still going to work, I wasn't taking time off, I wasn't being given time off and it was getting worse and worse and yeah, one morning I basically just broke down and I was, just found myself in a bit of a heap in my front room in a very bad way and was immediately admitted to a private hospital. And that's where the process started. It was an amazing place called the Capio Nightingale Hospital in Marylebone. And I was admitted with basic yet clinical depression, anxiety. I wasn't sectioned, I was pretty close to it, but they, they said I could need to go on a six month intense program whereby I would do one on one sessions in the morning and then group therapy in the afternoons. And so, you know, suddenly being plucked out of the city in my, you know, living in a one bedroom flat to then being admitted to a psychiatric hospital, which is amazing hospital. But yeah, life changed pretty quickly.

I actually, from a background of working in mental health actually as well, I can understand how or start to Understand how difficult that must be from that, that kind of fast paced lifestyle into this, this mental health hospital, actually reading and researching around you. Then you went into this career in terms of nightclubs, entertainment, promoting. So how, how did you get from, you know, that place of where you were really struggling from a mental health perspective, what was the big change? So what happened after that event and how did you then slip into kind of another world of endurance? Actually, because I would say nightclubs, there's, there's definitely an endurance there. So. Yeah. How, how did that happen?

Yeah, it was interesting because again, I sort of, whilst at the Capio Nightingale, I turned to the books and so I treated it almost like a course or an MBA or mini mba. And I studied the mind. I studied, I was doing cognitive behavioral therapy and I immersed myself in it and I started to understand things I'd never even been aware of before, how the mind works. And, and literally I think that was five months into the six month program and I walked down my flat window and I remember it so, so well that I saw colors again. And I hadn't seen, been seeing colors for months and it was such a strange thing. Even Sandstone's talking about it now. But my world was gray for probably 12 months. And I walked out and I was just overwhelmed with all the colors that I could see in London. And I, I still, yeah, it's hilarious actually. I, I ended up walking from Shepherd's Bush to Married at Burnworth Hospital was. Which I'd never done before and up Oxford street for some reason I walked into the old Top man on Oxford Circus and bought a pair of red trousers. I'd never owned a pair of red trousers, but they're the most overwhelming, exciting, fun thing because I could see red again. So anyway, that's, that's a bit of sidetrack, but. So no, I, I almost was, I wouldn't say I'd cracked it, but suddenly I understood what was happening. I developed these coping mechanisms and ways that I could now tackle these negative thoughts that were coming to my head. And so yeah, off the back of that things got exciting. You know, things got, I, I was always incredibly sociable. I'd always had a good network. I had a very good friend who had set up a nightclub promotions business and yeah, he asked me to join him in that and so had an incredible. Yeah, as you, you've said one of many pivots I've had in my life. But organizing. There was sort of 20 of us that we used to organize probably around 17 parties a week at London's High End nightclub. So I did that for a few years and that. That again was the. Another sort of foundation that. That then propelled me forward into a career of sport and business.

That kind of leads me on to. And I know there's multiple business steps that we're going to come back to, but how did you go from that to the world of endurance sport? Because what you've just described to me, and I'm reading Jog on by Bella Mackey at the moment and it's actually, it's the first book I've ever read or listened to that has described the world of depression and anxiety in similar words to what you've just used in like no color. And suddenly the color came back and it's really interesting. So the reason I find it really interesting is my eldest daughter has been struggling with her mental health and it's the first thing I've ever read where I've gone. She's talking like my daughter was talking and it's fascinating. So, and, and Bella finds the. The world of running helps her a lot. Was it linked to mental health that got you into running or what got you into endurance sports? And where did danger endurance sport journey take you for those that don't know much about you?

Yeah. Wow. Okay. And yeah, so as you said there, there are a few more sort of pivots along the way. And it was in price 2014. I hadn't really run before. I mean, I've obviously run. I've, you know, play five aside foot with my. And but never done an organized running event. And I was what, 38 at the time and a charity place came up for London Marathon and for whatever reason I said yes. Now at the time I wasn't. I wasn't in a particularly bad spot with my mental health. As I said, I'd sort of. Obviously there were waves and peaks and troughs that we all have, but I had a bit of a toolkit by then to sort of help when things were happening or certain warning signs were happening. So I got into. Yeah, London Marathon was my first event. 2014, I think I did it in 4 hours 30. I've got some brilliant photos of me doing it. I think the finish line, there's a post box ran past me, which is what I thought was a glorious finish line photo. Now I see of what it really was. But that was quite fun. And then off the back of that, I then entered again. 2015, got a charity place. And that. That for me really started. I was probably, I Was still drinking quite a bit, I was a bit overweight. But for me, you know, something happened and I'm sure you guys are aware London Marathon is a very special day and the sort of, the, the mixture of I think probably the goal setting and the, therefore the training towards something again really reminded me of my, I think my way I used to sort of, you know, study for exams and then there'd be a moment at the end of it and that sort of being a very goal orientated person, I was like, hold on a second, this, this is quite interesting. And then, yeah, off the back of that did a couple of halves and it wasn't until 2018 that I did my first Ultra, which was Race the King, which I'm sure you both know and then that was that. I mean, off the back of the Race the King I was, I'd actually set up a, a creative agency called Dark Horses a year before, which we, you know, subsequently went on to have lots of success with. But again, that was when I was building a business. I was in pretty stress but actually I found Ultra running, as you highlighted earlier, a really nice form of therapy. And again, I think taking things from the sort of the toolkit I developed post Happy Nightingale Hostel and marrying it with what I was getting from ultra running, I, I found it quite a potent mix and that was that, that was the start of my, my sort of Ultra journey and that sort of has pretty much snowballed since then really. I, you know, probably say the High Marathon de Saab in 22. I. Sorry in 2023 did my first 100 miler in 22. I DNF the dragons back last year. I finished the event as a hatchling. I didn't quite get to, to finish it, you know, with a Dragon, but I still completed down to Cardiff. But there, yeah, it's been quite a sort of. I've immersed myself in it now really.

So retrospectively looking back, what made the Dragon's back the highlight and what do you now know? You know, how, what, what do you now see from a mental health point of view that running does for you?

Yeah, I think it's really important to hire as well for me in the success I've had in businesses, the limited success obviously with lots of failures as well. I think it's. I've always been very aware of my limitations. As I said earlier, this might, you know, my journey started with someone who worked really hard but wasn't particularly clever. I think the successes I've had with business, knowing my shortcomings which are plenty, but surrounding myself with people who know a lot more than me. I refer to standing on the shoulder of giants. And so any business I build, I'll make sure I'm not the smartest in the room. I don't want to be. In fact, I want to be the least smartest in the room. And I think what I sort of stumbled into with running was that. And I hope I don't defend any of your listeners, but I regard it as a bit of a talent in the sport. And I've sort of. When I got into running, I suppose I was genetically blessed. I had a slight frame. I mean, I was carrying a, you know, a few stone more than I should have been, but my frame lent itself quite well to it. And also, I think because I'd come to running quite late in life, age 38, there were no historical niggles or sort of knees or ankles or there was no sort of injuries that I was carrying, which I hear a lot about now. My contemporaries who have been running for 30 years, they're all sort of just always injured. I mean, touchwood, I really never injured some massive touching wood. Yeah, but, yeah, go back to mental health. But I just found that it was, for me, such an easy mechanism that I could. I know we always talk about, and everyone talks about digital distraction and how we're always on our phones and, you know, we don't have any thinking time and we're already. We're always getting inputs. We moved down to sussex in about 5 years ago this year and on my morning runs admitted that, you know, that pretty much every day. But I can go for a run here, not see a person, any signs of human life at all. I'll certainly see no traffic, traffic lights, digital outdoor displays, marketing, advertising boards. So it's complete me time. It's no phone time, there's no input. So obviously I case the podcast, but music. But I'm very lucky that I can go on a run with no interruptions for four hours and regularly access what everyone refers to as flow state. And I think in London, up until 2020, I never really accessed flow state because obviously there are so many inputs, even when I run, whether it's traffic lights, beeping horns, you know, whatever it was, people. Now I can go out here and just. Just lose myself. And I think that as a form of therapy or even just medicine has been just game changing for me.

I think it's interesting what you say actually when you're in this space and we've talked to so many so many amazing guests on this podcast that talk about this kind of headspace and this silence and actually coming from somewhere that's, you know, in your multiple different businesses that you have that are very sort of full on to be able to have that space, I think is, is really important. And, and on that theme, what do you think you've, you've got your, your agency, what is it? Wild Wild Horses.

No, Dark Horses. Dark Horses that's actually been sold. So I've stepped away from dark horses.

Okay, so when, when you thinking about business and also about sports, what do you think? Thinking from an endurance perspective, what do you think that the world of endurance. So for you that really that ultra side of running.

Yeah.

Has given you in terms of business and also vice versa. So what does, what does business do you think sort of give to your, your ultra running endurance?

Something I think about a lot and I think there are, there's a number of points. I think the, I think goal setting as I touched on earlier is really important. I think both, you know, obviously setting out on any training for any event, it's all about having that goal you're working towards. And obviously in business, whether that's daily, weekly, annual, you know, goals for the business are really important. I think the, the ability to embrace failure, again, that was something that I think I really got from my. Those formative years I told you about with the 250 rejection letters from law firms. That's when that sort of muscle was really sharpened and have not lost it. And I think I'm very lucky that I can walk from failure to failure. And I think, you know, when you're curled up in a fetal position and you're flat in London, crying and having to call an ambulance because you don't have happened to you after that, you're kind of okay with most failures, if not all failures. I wouldn't say I'm bulletproof, but there's not much people can do to me now having experienced that in life and I think again for business, in all the business I've been involved with, what to some people are catastrophic events that, you know, suddenly people find very distressing. I'm quite blessed as a leader that I can brush them off quite quickly and we can move on as a group. I think positivity as, you know, like for all. I mean again, I'm quite lucky. In fact, I'm Reggie mocked for being too positive. But that's quite handy in business and in running, especially at ultra running. I think I'm always that annoying Guy who's asking how your day is when I'm running alongside you. And yeah, I probably do upset a few people with that toxic positivity I think they call it and there's lots of others but I think again and something that actually I'd love to highlight now which is a real, it's been a real lesson for you this year. So in business I've always, as I said earlier, surrounded myself with experts and whether that's meant, you know, diluting 100 of a business I own down to 15%. I'm always aware that it's better to have those smarter people around you and, and that is something I'll do in every business that I, that I find I own. But interestingly enough I sort of hadn't realized in running I'd never done that. And as I said I had a, a bit of a spectacular fail last year with the Dragon's back. It was a, well, the second race I've ever DNF'd. But on day two I basically missed a cutoff, the time cutoff I mean at that I, I, you know, I'd never finished anyway but I trained so hard and I sort of realized afterwards that I'd never had a coach in running and it was a bit of a lot. I was actually a bit impeccable. So I suddenly thought I go on about this in life about obviously always educate yourself. Surrounding yourself with experts, standing on the shoulder, giants and no Denver coach. So my big challenge for this year is I'm running a thousand kilometers from Brisbane to Sydney and so I'm very excited to say that I've now got a coach and my coach is the guy that holds the fastest known time from Brisbane to Sydney. So I found him in the deepest, darkest corner of the Internet. He runs Manly Running Club in Sydney and yeah, already only six weeks in, I'm like holy. Obviously my running's got better because I've got an expert telling me and it's exciting actually because I was all thinking how I've got away with it anyway for the last seven years of running sort of making all on myself and he's even been through my strava and he actually said to me, he was like, he just couldn't believe that I went into Dragon's back. He was like, you were so fatigued. I could tell from your Strava you were, no one knew that you were a mess. And then he also said in 2022 I did a sub 3 marathon. He was like how on earth do you do that because I looked your strava for like the months he'd captured. It's a complete my point there. So something I have learned is absolutely surround yourself with experts whether that's in business or get yourself a running coach because my God, they make a difference.

That's brilliant. And I love the fact that you've got so far with your ultra running without the support of a coach. And I was gonna, I was gonna ask you for a specific sort of. Well, but I will, no, I will still ask you. So you've sorted, have answered it. But is there a specific thing that that running coach for somebody that's thinking, do I get a running coach? Do I not? Is there a specific thing that he changed or told you to do or to stop doing that has made that improvement so far?

Absolutely. And in the world of ultras I, I ended up in this sort of school of thought or certainly literature. And the content I was following was always about time on feet and whether that was for as I said, you know, 100 milers, Marathon, Desab Dragons back, whatever it was. And there was always in the back of my head time on feet. And so the way that manifested myself for me most weeks was three hour run on Tuesday, three hour on Thursday and then a sort of five hour on Sunday and I was just smashing that out and, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm horribly consistent so that I was doing that for years and in between I was trying to be a present father, business owner, husband, just you know, and actually is a bit of a mess. Whereas I'm now as I said, well, I'm 20 weeks out from running a thousand kilometers and the coach I'm running every day now but this morning was a 45 minute run. Tomorrow is 35 minutes of strides. The longest run I've got this week is two hours. And he's like, yeah, no worries. Like you're going to run 44 miles a day and you will improve and get faster as each day goes and you'll sprint into Sydney and the most you're ever gonna run is two and a half hours which is just blow my mind. I'm just sort of, you know, I've, I, and I'm, I'm, I feel better. My wife loves it because I'm at home a lot more like it's, it's a win, win everywhere really. But I'm sort of like I just, I just followed the wrong thing for years. And so yeah, in answer your question, it's, I'm running A lot less to run a lot further.

Interesting. Are you missing the long runs on a Sunday?

Yeah, it's. I whisper my wife's in. Oh, so much more to do at home now. I should take a paper and sit at the end of the drive for two hours. No, no, I don't mean that. I do miss the dams actually. I kind of, Yeah, I do miss it downs a lot because I, because you know, on my Sunday, five hours I could go and see some amazing things and. Whereas now I'm sort of. I've even actually bought a treadmill for home. So yeah, it's, it's, it's faster, quicker but I, I do miss the, the long stuff. But to be brutally honest, I'd, you know, you know, it's like you come back on a five hour run on Sunday, I'm no use to anyone, you know, I'm literally. Whereas now I can come, you know, the 45 minute run and your endorphins and dopamine are pinging around and I'm actually quite a useful human.

Yeah, yeah, I, I completely get it because I did exactly the same thing. I was long, long runs and then now I've used much. Got a much smarter trading plan. I'm missing all of those. But yeah, I did quite like going exploring with just an ultra on and ending up in places that I'd never seen before. So yeah, it's really difficult just on this, on this, sticking with this topic but going back to business, how do you make sure you recruit people that are better than you in particular areas? Do you have a process that you think this is, these are the types of people, this is the culture I want to recruit around or do I. Do you use any technology to help you identify the right people? You know, how do you do that?

That.

Yeah, good question. I'm. I've just started a role as a chairman of a really excited business called Firmative and we, we're a creative agency and we describe ourselves as being at the cusignative culture. We were, we rooted in music production but we're actually launching a 360 creative business now. As the chairman, my main role is recruitment. So I'm currently six, eight briefs out at the moment looking for people and it's really, it's really hard, it's really hard to find really good people. I think the last time I was recruiting was seven years ago at the helm of Dark Horses and that's a very different time to recruit. Dare I say, a lot easier because the rules of engagement were A lot clearer. I'm actually meeting people now, interviewing people now. One of the first questions, and fair enough is is this, you know, hybrid work from home? Like all these questions that I've just like, wow, chatgpt, what does that mean? And it's interesting because my, I've all. I'm always about building businesses that have a real culture. And what I mean by that is having a centralized mission that the team get behind, having a strong identity. I believe you recruit on personality and if that person's right, I believe you can end up teaching the job. I mean, I, I'm in no position to judge anyone the CV when I'm. I've gone from lawyer to nightclub, sports agents, publishing company owner, advertising agency owner, now production business owner and a few other things in between. None of those things were on my CV before someone gave me opportunity. So I think with the right attitude, I think that's a, that's a massive thing. I mean, I've got. Actually, can I say this? Yeah, I can say this. We go through interview process at the moment and there are a couple of people who ear mod the role and we set a little task, a little presentation task as the final stage and it was to be done on Zoom. And one of the candidates insisted on coming to the office and doing it in person and she wasn't very well. And the moment she just messaged to say, I want to do this in person. She's only young, I'm not very well, but I'm going to come in and do this. And the others were just happy to do it on zoom. I kind of were like, well, that's really interesting. Like that for me is a really interesting attitude to have. And so, well, let's see what happens. But that sort of thing I think is, as I said, so attitude first. And then I believe there is an element of being able to teach people the job on the go.

I think what you were saying about opportunity there as well, how it just made me think actually, because researching a little bit about, I mean, like I say, these multiple businesses that you've had and the history behind that, I, I think I'm right in saying that you didn't necessarily have a background or experience in some of those businesses that you went into, coming from, from that law background, but people obviously gave you this opportunity. What, what was it that made you kind of say yes to those opportunities or were you creating those opportunities? You were there at the right time and did you ever kind of suffer from feeling that actually you didn't have the right experience to be in the right place. Like, is that where you started to surround yourself with these experts? So tell me a little bit about that.

And again, I go back to those formative years of reaching rock bottom after a legal profession and actually realizing that life's too short. And actually, you know, I, I regard that period of my life as the best thing that could have possibly happened to me because off the back of it, I no longer. There was no such thing as fear of failure, that I, I had no fear at all. I also had. I wasn't worried about risk because I knew that whatever happened, I was never going to be in that position again. So it sort of gave me. I don't understand, dramatic, but a bit of a superpower in that people are always saying to. Oh, you're always pivoting, you know that, you know, you never stone your lane and, you know, you always taking risk. And I'm sort of, I'm. I'm. Yeah, they. It's not really something give me credit for because it feels so natural to me. And so I think that obviously there's a, There's, There's a responsibility. If I have. Obviously I've got a family and, you know, I've got children and I have employees. So I'm not sort of like some crazy loon running around just taking massive risks everywhere. But. But I do think that I, I'm open minded to taking chances. And again, if you don't mind me sort of just touching on Save Our Souls, which is the, the brand I've launched this year. I mean, that was born out of an idea that came running and you know, three months later I was in, you know, rural China at factories and designing a product which I had no right to design with a factory. And, and here we are now selling it. So you kind of like. I just. Yeah, I guess it's. What you probably say is, is, yeah. Fear of failure. Really. I'm not really that scared by anything, really.

Can I ask you a question? Are you. Are you. This is not a reflection on how you're acting. It's something I'm curious about. Do you think you're dyslexic?

I'm not dyslexic. I'm definitely, I'm definitely. I. This is a drob, which you sound. I'm definitely on the spectrum. I'm definitely. I would say if I, I could definitely be diagnosed to form autism and I. Again, but I think that's something I've weaponized and yeah, I kind of It's a brilliant book. Here we go. And it is a. What is a good psychopath and why? It'll help you to think like one. I mean, this book is by Andy McNabb, who you. I'm sure you remember as. Oh, yeah. And I read this and it's. I'll just Read it back. McNabb is diagnosed as psychopath, but he's a good psychopath. Unlike a bad psychopath, he's able to dial up or down qualities such as brutalnesses, fearlessness, decisiveness, consciousness and empathy to get the very best set with himself and others. And I feel like I read that book and was like, wow, like, I'm not gonna sing it from the rooftops. I'm a good psychopath. But I. I think I probably am.

It's fascinating because I think the reason I ask about dyslexia was.

Yeah, I don't know. It could be that as well, I think.

So what the reason I asked was because people that are dyslexic usually have an advantage running their own businesses. Because in. In school, everyone's taught, well, you to learn this thing, you go from A to B down this straight path. But somebody that struggles to. That is dyslexic typically has to go zigzagging all over the place, but work out how to get there of their own. Right. And that's. And that's why it's an advantage in business, because the entrepreneur. No, and like you said, with the goal setting, it's about setting the clear goal and then it's about going. I don't know how I'm getting there, but I know I'm going to work it out along the way. And that's why it sort of rang true with me. I think the other thing that the being on the spectrum is a really interesting point. There's a book called Driven by, I think, Douglas Brackman, and he describes it instead of adhd, he describes it as the driven gene, which is just fascinating. But I think that the psychopath thing is. Is. I mean, we'll come back to them.

I'll go with Riven, just touches on that. I think there's something else which I think could be related to these of. Again, I don't know the exact medical. Medical term which would fit best. But for whatever reason, again, I don't know how. Where this came from. I'm incredibly consistent. And it's not. It's not hard for me to be consistent. I don't. Again, I'm, you know, I'm in no way an elite athlete at all. But why am I. I can do is turn up every single day. And it's sometimes strange. I listen to. I was actually listening to a Colleen Journey podcast yesterday, and I've listened to loads, and one of the questions is always, you know, how do you, you know, is it easy for you to get up every day, even in the winter? And they all say, no, sorry, it's. It's. It's not easy. And that. And I find it really easy. Like, I do find it easy. I don't. I don't. I don't want to meddle for it, and I don't, you know, I don't judge any other people that don't find it easy, but I'm really lucky. And I think that if whatever you do, you just can keep turning up. And again, I joke with mates. I sort of. I have a very positive outlook, as I said earlier, and I've got a short memory. And so when you've got a positive outlook and short memory and you're consistent, like, you can do anything, like, really, because you just keep going. And I kind of do. But, yeah, I appreciate that. I'm just lucky to have that. That's nothing. That. That's not a skill.

I think that it's the. I think I'm right in quoting Robin Sharma that says it's not the big things you do occasionally that make the difference. It's the little things that you do often. And it is that ability to just show up and do it day after day. And, you know, and then in the world of finance, which was my historical business, we always talked about it with compound growth. It's just getting the growth year on year on year makes the difference. And that kind of segues into your world as a football agent, because I heard you quote something, which I remember hearing years ago, and I think the statistic I heard you quote was that 70% of footballers go bankrupt.

Yeah.

And I mean, that's frightening when we. When we understand how much money the majority of them get paid. As. As when you were acting as a football agent, what was your experience about how those people were educated about finance? And also how. How do you think. You know, I was always passionate about why is. Why are schools not teaching finance? We all have a mortgage, we all have a credit card, we all have a whatever, but we don't get taught it at school. So talk to me a bit about that from a football agent point of view, but also from an education point of view.

Yeah, no, it's a really interesting subject and I think, yeah, so, so you know, that was a sort of 2010 to 2014. I was, you know, looking after some quite well known footballers, you know, this claim and none of those, you know, were experiencing bankruptcy issues. But I think that, and funny enough at the moment I'm consulting actually the fascinating organization based in the Cayman Islands who are looking to help with this issue. So it's, it's time you mentioned this and it still is a problem. And I think there are a number of factors thrown into the sort of pot as to why this is the case. But it's also worth stressing it's also the case in the NBA and in the NFL in America. So this isn't just a soccer, a UK problem, this is a, an elite sportsman issue. And I think that I'd probably say three main factors stand out for me. Firstly is that the, the background that these professionals come from is often low income households from less privileged backgrounds. So I think that that's a factor that they from a young age aren't experienced to money or any sort of positive good money habits. I think that's a huge factor which.

I guess is why you wouldn't see it as much in rugby as you would in football.

Because the background is, yeah, I think that's a big factor. I think secondly, any child that is earmarked to become a professional, they are, they're whipped out of education, age 13, 14, pretty much. And so, you know, miss out on what a lot of people would have. I mean, obviously not on most people. I doubt most people in this country go to university but, but even their GCCs, it's never the priority, it's just about the tick box because you're gonna be a pro footballer. So that's a big thing. And then unfortunately, probably one of the biggest factors is the, once they do make it, the lack of advice was a combination of lack of good advice. But then also people surrounding these people actively trying to extract money off them. And so these four factors are pretty much the reason. And also it's, it's such a small earning window. I mean the average elite soccer player in this country will be on what we would, you know, describe as the big money for probably four years, five years max. So if you think you or I, you know, I, I imagine that my earning, my, my life income will be spread over probably 50 years, maybe a bit more of work, hard work, whereas you think a footballer, it's over five years and they took themselves to education so they knew nothing else. They've got no infrastructure around them there. I say it's hardly surprising that that is a statistic.

And going back to the schooling piece, do you think that schools do a good job of educating our children for today's society?

Oh, don't give me so often schools if I'm not careful. I sound like Andrew Tate, but yeah, no, I think the two biggest things, well, arguably the biggest things in life are the person decide to settle down with, whether that's a man or woman, and, and have children with. And also how you provide for these, your loved ones. And I think at school when we're taught nothing about personal relationships, we're talking nothing about empathy, we're talking nothing about the opposite sex or even the same sex in relationship, so. And we're talking nothing about how to look after a human. Like, how on earth do we spend 16 years education and we're not shown how to bring up a child? It blows my mind that that's the most important thing any of us ever do. So that pisses me off. But then also going back to the financial health. Absolutely. Like there is. And again, I'm not going to go all conspiracy theory on you all, but I find it strange that there's not a module at compulsory schooling that is about how to look after money. How to what money is, what to do with money. And yeah, I don't want to go conspiracy theory, but it does sort of suit the system that 70 of this country come out of education and don't really know what to do with money. Because I think that certainly suits the government.

Yeah, I, I think, I think back to my education actually. And there isn't anything you're taught about money and certainly not, you know, that's showing my age now, but certainly not about looking after yourself at all. Like you talk about looking after a human. It's, it's crazy when, when you think.

Of it, it really is, isn't it? And it is. So like I, for whatever reason, I, I again, I'm a bit, as a bit of a bookworm, but I'm, I'm still like a 4 out of 10 partner dad that because I'm just learning on the job and having to just read and educate, I just, I, you know, for whatever reason, I kind of didn't really understand what any of it was and I thought maybe, you know, miraculously, sort of when you're in your 20s, you suddenly become an adult and this, you've been blessed with this moment of all this knowledge and like, I don't get any. I mean thankfully I, well, I say thankfully I didn't get married till 38 and, and even then I was like still a bit behind. Well, massively behind the curve. But if I got married in my 20s, it would have been an absolute disaster.

They say the male brain doesn't mature until age 40, so I probably about right actually.

I'll get behind that.

So talking about charities and schooling, education, you were telling us a little bit before we started this conversation today about a really exciting charity event you're about to do that's related to education. So tell us a little bit more about it. You dipped in a little bit about your coke running coach there. So. So what are you doing?

Well, firstly, let's not say about to do. It's 20 weeks away about. I just had a little bluffer in my chest for you to band. Yes. So 19th of July this year I'm running from Brisbane to Sydney. I'm running for an organization charity called Delalia Rugby Works, which was a organization set up by the exing the rugby captain Lawrence d' Alio and it is an organization that helps children that have been excluded from mainstream education learn life skills. And so we are one of the official partners of the British and Irish Lions tour of Australia. So it's really exciting. So yeah, I am, I am very much on the journey of fundraising. We have a just giving page. So please, please, please put that in the show notes. But yeah, we, myself and an Australian friend of mine are going to be running 44 miles a day for 14 days down the east coast to Australia. So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, I've managed to find the, the a coach who holds the fastest known time for that, that distance, that, that, that, that journey. So fingers crossed. I mean, I mean I'm in the best hands possible.

It sounds absolutely awesome and what a like amazing place to do that as well. Big question because you, you talked a little bit about it before. What are you going to do to look after your feet? Because I know that's a big area area of yours in terms of save ourselves.

Yeah, absolutely. So it's a good question and I think just, yeah, we're jumping around but that, you know, save our souls. As a brand we are, we describe ourselves as being a sort of foot care brand for the everyday athlete. So it's by no means for elite athletes, but the sort of insight I got, which really started when I moved down to Sussex was I went from road running to trail running and I started getting really mangled feet just being at the trails all day, every day in the, in in both summer and winter and really started got me thinking about feet. And then I did the marathon Lassar which as your listeners will know it is an absolute foot care frenzy. I mean we had 24 full time foot doctors following us around the Sahara. So that experience again showed me, wow, okay, feet are really important. And so yeah, save Ourselves is born out of those experiences really. And with our flagship and launch product is the Atacama, which is a shoe dry. So again, going back to my story here, I developed very bad chill blains on my feet. Never had that in London running. And after a lot of investigation with various podiatrists and cropodists, we discovered that every morning I was putting on damp shoes to go out running in and the damp shoes were causing chafing and immediately made my feet cold and was causing chill. Blaine. So the Atacama shoe dryer was born and, and yeah, we, we had it built last year. Really exciting. It's the first of many products we've been launching to sort of help with foot care. But yeah, the Atacama will dry most running shoes in 20 minutes. We'll put a discount code if you want in the, in the show notes so your, your listeners can sort of tuck in. But it's been amazing. We've, we've been going sort of on sale now for seven weeks and yeah, it's been a huge success. But back to your question. It's important to stress that the, the shoe dryer isn't just for wet shoes caused by rain or water. One of the biggest problems in foot health is obviously foot fungal issues caused by sweat. And I'm hoping the east coast of Australia be more sweat than rain because that's sort of how I visage it though it could be raining the whole way, which would be a disaster. So yeah, very much. We will have an Atacama, a portable Atacama with us and we will be drying our shoes every evening from the sweat. So when we put them on in the morning and we'll be good to go.

Brilliant. And I think, I think from listening to you talk about this product, which I would definitely put the discount code in in the show notes, we'd love to do that. It's about making the shoes also last longer. So talk to me about the, you know, 200 miles per pair of shoes principle but also throw in, I'd just like to kind of counteract that because obvious in a world where we've got some runners really preaching, you know, Come on, use the shoes for longer than that, which I think is a great thing. If we're trying to reduce the amount of plastic in the world, how are you trying to do that with a plastic product?

Yeah, so firstly with the business primary and the brand primary is about foot health but obviously as you've highlighted, a byproduct is the longevity of your footwear. And yeah, as you mentioned, this train is now being sold which tell you how many miles you get from them. Which blows my mind about being prescriptive as to how much money you sell spend with a brand, which is crazy. And I think Killian Journey, who I mentioned earlier has launched his own trainer brand and he proudly said at the UTMB last year hit the trainers he wore, he'd been weighing for two and a half years and he is like running 200 miles a week in them. So it's absolute nonsense to be honest. But, but yeah, what we're doing with the Atacama as well is that we're, we're fully aware that if you look after your trainers they last longer. So whether that's from drying them from sweat or rain, but also once a week just, just wash them, just you know, get the mud off them, put them in Atacama for 20 minutes, dry them out and they're good to go. So absolutely will make them last longer obviously as well. A lot of people now will wash their shoes but stuff them down the radiators. But now that that heat from the radiator isn't great for the blue on the shoe so they do degrade quickly. So we're confident we're helping your shoes last longer. The point you made about plastics, it was something that was really at the forefront of our minds. So when we were speaking to potential manufacturers, we met them in Turkey, India, China. What I learned pretty quickly is if you're making electrical drying product, you can't make it 100 from recycled plastic. So we ended up, our manufacturer is using, it's about 80% recyclable. But the commitment we've made is twofold. Firstly, we're confident this product will last for life. I mean it's got a three year warranty. But as I said, we were testing prototypes last year and we are very confident any Atacom you buy will last forever, it will never end up in landfill. So that's a commitment. But secondly, we've partnered with an organization called four Ocean who are a brilliant organization based in the States and they clean plastic, they remove plastic from the ocean. So it's Huge organization. And the commitment we've made there is that for every Atacama sold, we're donating a pound to four ocean. And so they are then removing the equivalent plastic from the ocean. So at the moment, from the Atacama soul, we're on about 30 pounds of plastic we've removed from the ocean. And our commitment is by 2026 we'll go plastic neutral, which means at the end of the year, for the total weight of Atacama sold, we'll recruit remove the equivalent weight of plastic from the ocean. So we feel that's a really nice commitment to make. Even though we are making a plastic product.

I, I think that's absolutely fantastic. Not only the product then the way you describe it in terms of helping with foot care, but also the sustainability side of things. And I think more and more athletes now, certainly the younger generations are looking at how can we make things more, more sustainable? So, and, and actually, you know, feeding that back into the four ocean and collecting plastic, I mean, it's just such a massive, massive problem.

Yeah, we're excited by that and I think, you know, we're very passionate about it and I think it's, it'll be interesting to see. I mean, obviously, you know, we are a startup and you know, we don't have big media budgets, so we can't really, you know, we're not going to be upsetting any of the major trainer brands, I don't think. But I think it's what we do hope is that we can create a bit of a movement that just gets people to sort of change their behaviors a bit. I mean, it's, as I said, it's. Everyone's got a story about, you know, wet trainers stinking out the house on the radiator and the airing cupboard, on the boiler and on the aga, whatever. Like they're everywhere. And that is so ingrained behavior. And I think we're starting to see now that we've got some great content going out on our Instagram and on our YouTube etc, and sort of of we are getting people now just messaging. Oh, you know, does this work with the football boots as well? Does this work the ski boots? And can I put my wet gloves on it? Because I haven't. And the answer is pretty much yes to all of that. And I think it's, it's really nice to see actually people realizing that it's like anything, isn't it? Like when something comes along that's new, people are a bit like. But seven, eight weeks in, we're starting to see more and more sales and people are starting to understand what we're doing.

Yeah, a product obviously that's going to be like multi use as well. I was just thinking of a, you know, a glove drying thing for.

I mean, funny enough, we were in the running show at the NEC a couple of weeks ago and we couldn't believe. I mean obviously it's the biggest sport. We couldn't believe how many people asked, is it gonna can it dry my son's football boots? We're sort of like, nice pivot to football. We're not gonna pivot to football, but we. Yes, it can dry York into wood.

Amazing.

Yeah.

So you talked about Marathon Desaab there and something on both Charlie and ours bucket list. But I know actually I worked with a sports podiatrist who spent a lot of time out at those races and some of the stories and pictures are unreal. So tell us a little bit about how do you look after your feet when you're out there? But what are the biggest problems? So if you look over the course of the days of you running, like do you start off and actually go kind of getting away with it and then it just gets worse and worse. So what, what, what happens over the course of these days? What you have to be really aware of.

Yeah, I mean, so I think it's the foot prep starts weeks or months in advance. So I sort of. You. You're very aware by the amount of content and books you can read about Marathon Saab that is a big factor is about taking care of your feet. And so I started my foot prep in advance by using something called, called for Dogs Paws. And so, and this is a little secret and you can buy it at the vets. And yeah, it's basically to, to sort of toughen up your dog's paws. So you can imagine my wife's, you know, when I was doing this every night, getting to bed. But yeah, I did that. And so that was quite odd.

And can we just clarify what was that called?

Can't remember. It's basically the dog's paws. It's, it's. Yeah.

I have a vision of you tackling around on the floor if a dog does.

Now that sounds gray hair and no, but that's that that was my sort of pre event routine. And then when you get out there, it is all about heaping sand or debris out of your shoes. Now obviously you have gators which cover your, your shoe. And the idea is to keep out the dust, the sand and the Stones. But I think the combination of, of the heat, so it was obviously getting up to 50 degrees, the sweat. That therefore means your foot swell. So you're advised to go a size up with your footwear. But what that means is for the first half day of day one, you've got this massive shoe on your foot is an idiot. So that in itself is. Cause so then by the end of day they've swollen and then at night in when it's really cold, your feet shrink again and you put them back on your fuse too big. And so there's a lot of that happening. But one of the keys, I mean on a day one I lost three toenails and that was day one I had good. I might feel good shape and I was. There's some really good tutorials online about how to take your feet. I'd never take my feet in running before even doing ultra never take my feet. But I always take my feet now. And that basically what that would entail is each morning and bear in mind you're doing these in the desert and so you're sort of trying to. There's no running water or showers, so you're your truck. Each morning you have to take off all the bloody bandages and bloody tape. Toenails water is a premium so you're trying to clean your feet without any running water. Then you've got to re tape them which when it's windy, Sandy. Yeah. And so you're kind of doing that every morning which takes about 20 minutes and then as each day goes by your feet are getting worse and worse and you know, it sort of culminated for me on a long day which is a. Our year. We did. It was a 90k day. Took me 22 hours that day. But by when I got in, so I left. We'd serve at 6am I got in 4am the next day and both my trainers were red, just covered in blood and. But you're so messed up and mashed up you don't really realize and you sort of, you know, they're sore. But yeah, it was carnage. And as I said, they have a brilliant group of roving medics called Doctrotters who are. It's unbelievable. I mean Google Doctors marathon, some of the images, it's like it's a. Basically it's a field hospital really. And the incentive to finish each day quickly is that you'll be close to the front of the queue because what would usually happen is that if you're not the front of the queue, you'd get in after however long you've been out for in the desert and then you have to queue for an hour, two hours to see a doctor specifically like that was the incentive to get back early. But they were great and they would. If, you know, for really bad feet, you'd go and see them, but most of the time you just saw them yourselves.

So this, this race, this race continually bounces from being almost the top of my bucket list to being almost the bottom of my bucket list. And it's stories like this. I remember that one of the very first guests I had on the podcast was a guy called Luke Tabersky and I remember him showing me a photograph of his feet after MDs.

It's just.

Yeah, I wish I'd never seen it to be honest. It is frightening. But, and actually you describing that, I think I've become a little bit blase. I've heard quite a few people talk about MDS on this podcast and obviously most of that is. It's a pivot point for them in their endurance journey. It's the thing that starts their endurance journey quite often. But also I think I became a little bit blase about how it wasn't as difficult. You know, it's not the toughest race on earth, etc. And yet you describe me that 22 hour day with bloodied feet.

Yeah.

Suddenly has me rethinking again.

It's really interesting though, because again, I, it's like anything though, isn't it? And that's me of my bloody short memory and positive outlook. I sort of, I, I. My wife tells me that when I got to the hotel after finishing, I was weeping, saying I'm never running again and all this and sort of whatever. Months later I was like, no, it wasn't, that's rubbish. Yeah, I kind of, it is obviously really, really hard, but I think that the, the amazing thing about MDS is the relationships you form. So 10, 137, which was my 10. Two of us did dragons back to three of us, the dragons back. Actually we are, we see each other three times a year. We do ultra together now. We're in touch with each other. We have a Christmas dinner. Like it's, it's a, it's one. I think, I think probably because of the terrain and I mean, dragon's back was amazing and really, really hard. But it was in Wales. I love Wales, but it wasn't as exotic, emotive and whereas when you're in the Sahara and you're just surrounded by this epic scenery, beautiful sunsets, beautiful Sunrises, sort of, you know, magical Moroccan mystery. The sort of. The food, all of it. It's sort of that you just cut the. The people you share that experience with. I mean, I'll go, oh, yeah, absolutely. Say definitely the best week of my life, obviously, apart from marriages and children and all that sort of stuff. But it was just, it was incredible. It had everything. And I probably can say that because I finished it. Like, obviously we had a particularly brutal year because we had this heat wave, but I'd absolutely do it. And also, I think going back to what we were discussing about at the beginning, it. It's like the real test case for everything you learn. Like, I felt that on the start line there was a sort of. It was everything that had gone before for me in my ultra running, even though it's sort of only, you know, not a long ultra running career, but that's five, six years. But I fear is a brilliant place to sort of bring it all together. And yeah, anyone that is into ultras, it's a bit pricey, but I think, yeah, it's the one to do.

Brilliant, Brilliant. I'm sold. And back. It's back on the top of my list again. Now, one of the questions that we ask at the end of this podcast, and I mean, we've already talked about a few books already, but is what books have you found, found that helped you most on your journey or you find yourself recommending to others? So what books really stand out on your journey? Because I can see you've got plenty in the backdrop.

Yeah, for those that are, funny enough, these aren't my. These are sort of not my running books, actually. My running books are upstairs. But I think there's a. There's a. There's a. And I'm going to be terrible and forget the authors, but I think there's a brilliant book called Do Hard Things which. And I should know the author and I don't, but absolutely game change for me. I think that there's a brilliant book on. We. We discussed it earlier with a business context and again, I will have to. I can't remember the name of it, but it is all about compounding. And I will have to buy someone.

Hardy something like the Compound Effect.

No, the Compound Effect, absolutely. And it's really interesting because again, that book is about business, but I was reading that just thinking all the time about endurance events and running. So I think that, yeah, Darren Hardy, the Compound Effect. And yeah, I think that those two for me have been brilliant. And then obviously the go to Anyone? The sort of gateway book for runners. I would always say Born to Run, because for me, as a, as a sort of a guide as to what can be done and what can be achieved and manifestation of running culture and community, I think that that's an incredible work. So those three, absolutely brilliant.

Thank you. And and to add that the good psychopath as well.

Yeah.

Which is definitely also on my, on my list. So.

Yeah.

Because I suspect I'm going to resonate with that, given what you described. And then the last thing that we do is we get the last guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that is. And our last guest was the legendary Iron man announcer Paul Kay. And I think Clair got Paul's question for you.

Yeah. So this is, this is a good one. So Paul asks, what situation have you been in where someone said something quite critical to you or maybe in jest, but it made you change your behavior, like there and then and for the future.

Oh, good question. Do you know what? Something does spring to mind, actually, which is quite interesting and it's quite random, but I guess the answer, this has to be quite random. London. I'm good mates with Great Britain English rugby league legend Jamie Peacock. And Jamie and I, we run lots of ultras together. Unfortunately he's just had to pull out of the Australian event. But, you know, we're great running buddies and I remember ages ago we, I. It's probably that, that sort of the stage I mentioned quite a while ago when I was probably a bit tubby and drinking too much and probably eating too much and just being a sort of, of, you know, struggling to really get into running the formative years of it. And I never forget and I. It wasn't ingest at all, but we were having a meal and I remember that I, I always used to have a bit of an issue with portion control and whether that was going into a restaurant and you know, nailing all the bread before the starter comes, or even at home cooking for one, or even just then cleaning up all the food off my family's plate I'm eating and, and Jamie said something to me which is brilliant and I still think about most Neil times, which will probably disturb him a lot. But he always said, he said to me, just eat 70% of what's on your plate. And I did that and I still do that. And lo and behold, since he said that, I've probably lost three stone and in the best shape of my life. And it was the most simple, obvious bit of jest, stroke criticism. But it was something that he said he did and someone had told him once and now it's such an easy way to manage your food intake is if you just leave 30% of what you're on your plate. Just leave it there on your plate.

Claire, as a nutritionist, I've got to ask, what are your thoughts?

Yeah, well, I, I think there's a number of things I was thinking about at that point, actually, but it's really, it's a really good, it's a really good answer and interesting in relation to food because sometimes that puts people in a totally different place and they go, don't tell you. Don't tell me what to do. Actually, the fact it maybe was playing on your mind potentially was the fact you were able to maybe to maybe change that as well. A portion is really difficult, isn't it, because people have what I call like portion distortion. They're not sure what is normal anymore and suddenly big plates become normal. And if you like food, you, you tend to eat it. So, and you were, you were talking before about this, you know, being quite regimented. You're good at like being able to keep to something that you decide you're going to do. So probably now that 70% is, is your routine, but it's very visual as.

Well and it's sort of. That I think is, is the, is the thing that's really interesting. You can. And you also get the sort of win at the end of each meal. You just like, cool. And that's. That. That definitely does something as well.

Yeah. I use visualization quite a bit on a plate with athletes and with professionals. So using the visualization of quarters, halves of protein, carbohydrate, and that's. It's super, super easy. And essentially it does relate back to the science and the evidence. So.

Yeah.

Does it, does it do your head in throwing away 30 of the food or have you got a dog that' happy?

Yeah, my dog loves it. The size of my dog.

Put on three stone as he's lost.

And do you just leave your veg and just focus on the meat and potatoes?

Put loads on my plate.

Yeah, yeah, got a bigger plate now.

I think progress for me would be to only eat a hundred percent of the food that's on my plate. Excellent. Simon, this has been really interesting. We've covered some amazing ground and we've not even covered all the different businesses that you've done and, and really looking forward to your progress and raising money for an amazing cause which we'll try and help you do when you go down to the Lions tour. Normally I do a little outro after this, telling people where to find, but you've got so much stuff going on. I'm going to ask you to do the job for me. Where is the best place for listeners to find out more about the different things that you've talked about today? And obviously we'll put the links in the show notes.

Yeah, I would just go to probably Instagram which is, well, unsurprisingly, my handle is at Ultra Entrepreneur. And yeah, most things on a link tree link at the top of that. But yeah, I kind of, I probably use Instagram the most.

Brilliant. Simon, it's been absolutely fantastic. Really love talking to you. I could see we had, we're on a similar sort of wavelength here, I think, I think all three of us and yeah, best of luck and continue the amazing work. Brilliant.

Thank you very much. Great to talk.

So what did you make of that conversation with Simon Dent?

Well, we, it went in many directions, didn't it? There was so much to talk about and I think, think to be honest, we probably covered maybe 50% of everything that he's done and all the stories that he has to tell. But one of the biggest things I think that straight away that I kind of came away with is this, I want, it wasn't, it's not failure at all, but the, the, the, was it 150 letters that he had. 220, 220 letters. Don't know why I got 150, which, you know, 220 letters of essentially rejection when he was looking at his, his law career and how that maybe has helped set him up for actually just doing things and that not having necessarily that fear of failure. And that came out a number of times, you know, across what he was saying to us. What did you, what did you get? What was your biggest, biggest takeaway point from, from that conversation?

Well, I, I, I think there, there's a few big ones. But I actually want to focus in on what you've just said there because, because I heard Ariana Huffington say recently that failure is not the opposite of success. Failure is the stepping stone towards success. And I think that that's like he is a classic example of that being the case. I mean, so I think that that's right. I think he, he, he didn't see failure as, oh, I can't do that. It's, I can't do it yet, but I'm moving towards learning how to do that or being able to do that. So I Think there was a lot of takeaways. I think it was. I really liked starting the conversation with actually like, he really learned the mental health problem that he had at a time, at a time where it wasn't really being discussed by most people. Let's be honest. He got those tools that allowed him to and succeed much quicker and much earlier because I think he applied that growth mindset to the mental wellbeing piece, didn't he? So I thought that was fascinating how he basically threw himself into, Right, well, I need to learn how to beat this particular problem. And, and as far as I could see, it hadn't troubled him since. But I also.

She was going to use it as this learning opportunity, actually. What can I learn in this time? Because let's face it, you would, you would never ordinarily in, in kind of your working career necessarily have that space of time. And maybe in a place where you had. I mean, he obviously had loads of other challenges at that time, but where you didn't have lots of other things going on around you, you were away from everything else. So it's really interesting. I thought that he used that as learning as well.

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And then I thought another big takeaway for me was how he was very much of the opinion, like, of Henry Ford, who was recruit people that are better than you recruit you because you then stand on their shoulders. You know, you stand on the shoulder giants. I think that's brilliant. There's a lot of businesses that, or business owners that don't want to recruit people that are better than them because they're worried that they'll show them up. Whereas actually the best, best businesses are where business owners recruit people that are better than them in, in areas that they don't have strengths in. And I thought it was interesting that Simon was very open. I mean, we didn't even talk. We didn't talk much about his marketing business, his marketing agency. We didn't talk at all about his publishing agency. And when I've heard him speak, he, by his own admission, he says, like, I was not an expert in either of those subjects, but I found people that were and I was kind of driving the business.

Yeah, I loved what he said about, you know, surrounding yourself with, with experts, though. I think that is, that is so true. You know, when, when we apply that actually into the world of, well, sport or business, actually being around people who are maybe in a different position to you or better than you at this point in time actually really helps to drive your own growth as well, and I think certainly from a sporting, but also from a business perspective, that is so helpful to be around that group of people.

Well, they say you become the average of the five people you hang out with, don't they? So the more you can hone that five people to be like an average you want to be as opposed to, you know, we've, we all know of situations where we're hanging out with people that actually are not taking us, take it, take our average in the wrong direction. So if you spend more time with the people that take your average in the right direction, that's, that's really powerful. But it also reminds me of what Sabrina Pace Humphreys talked about in, when we interviewed her ages and ages ago about a Fab five and having, you know, having the person that is, is, that's been there before, person that's on the same journey, the person that is your sort of truth teller, the person that's your cheerleader and the tribe or community. Like, you know, if you get those five groups of people right for each of your different kind of key areas, then, then that's really powerful. Another thing I loved what he'd done in terms of the business of Save Our Souls was. I don't know if you're aware, but Tom's Shoes, I think, I can't remember whether I mentioned it in the episode or after speaking, but Tom shoes give away a pair of shoes to an African child every time anyone buys a pair of Toms shoes. I thought what they were doing with their plastic offset or Save Our Souls was really brilliant. And I think that makes just businesses more talkable. People will remember that stuff. They'll tell more people about it. We talk in marketing about, about making your business more talkable. That is a great example of that.

I think there's just. So I know I mentioned this, but like, if you think about, you know, the generations now coming into the workplace, people want to be more sustainable. And so I just, I think that's also from kind of that ethos behind sustainability. Even if you're using a plastic product, which they. I can't remember what the percentage he said he got it down to in terms of, of 20, I think 20%. Yeah. No, I, I absolutely agree with it because it's, it is a nice story behind it that you're, that you're offsetting for sure. And actually we had a really good conversation about horrendous feats in Marathon de Sable as well, didn't we? Off the back of that?

Yes.

So has it put you off or are you super keen to go?

No, I am absolutely super keen to go, actually. But, but I think, you know, like, everything, learning you can't hold back, like throwing yourself in and doing something like the marathon to Scott, disability, you know, push you a little bit, but actually having knowledge and again, having people that can, can support you and help you. And actually he gave some really good, good advice there about taping feet and things.

And, yeah, and, and we, we, when we asked him the question from poor K, we ended up down. I only eat 70 of the food on my plate principle.

Yeah.

I obviously asked you at the time what you thought, but now without him here, what do you think about. Because the, the thing that stood out to me was it was just a simple rule. It's like, that's my rule, I stick to it. And it's actually the simple rules that kind of often work the best.

Yeah.

What are your thoughts around what he said and the simple rule concept?

Yeah, I think, I think simple, absolutely. 100. I think when it comes to nutrition, people over complicate, so you can overcomplicate something, but actually knowing the science that sits behind it and simplifying it is actually where people can put things into place. So actually having the knowledge, then simplifying. But actually I, I use something slightly different to that. So I'll actually use a plate model where you, depending on the amount of training you're doing, you use different percentages, obviously not calculating but a fraction of the plate. So half, three quarters, a third. And actually that does equate, like especially if you're working carbohydrates to more or less what you need and it doesn't have to be down the line. So I do really like that idea. I guess with that, would you still eat 70% but wouldn't eat anymore even if you're still hungry and did lots of training? And would you then eat 70%, essentially be slightly overeating if you didn't do as much training? But I like the concept. But it got me thinking after the call, actually, you know, do you just then just use a slightly smaller plate or a slightly bigger plate? Or do you just then say, well, I'm only eating 70% so I'll fill my plate less full. Maybe it doesn't have the same, the same effect. But yeah, I liked, I like the idea.

I don't like the idea. I'm just thinking back to being cycling in Lanzarote a couple of weeks ago, thinking we were having three course breakfast, lunch and dinner. So, so if it was 70, I mean like, like. Yeah. I also hate the concept of wasting food. Now I'm not sure that he was saying he was wasting food. Was he just filling the plate 70 as opposed. But, but the idea of throwing away 30 of food that just. Yeah, I'm too tight fisted to think about.

I think, I think. And that's where using this idea of almost like dialing up and dialing down by using a placenta and a plate is a much. Is it a better way to do it if you're training, Training? Because otherwise you, you, you're going to be over fueling or under fueling definitely when it comes to carbohydrates. So I think the concept behind it is good but for me it would be changing the dial of how much on the plate depending on what you're doing. And that's still super simple.

And if you're sitting here going yes, I need to do more of this. Have you got any sort of free downloads or any tools that you have available that they can, they can download?

Yeah, absolutely. So we are just uploading a few things to the website. So I'll be sure to put something on around carbohydrate and plate planning. So absolutely. So watch this space as our new website's launched. There will be something there and just.

Because people just remind people that are listening in the car what the website is that they can get out from.

So it's fourth discipline.com so fourth as in the number th discipline.com and you can download that. So within the next week it should be, be, should be there for you.

To download but we obviously put that on the show. Notes. Well, another fantastic interview, really insightful and I'm going to be looking forward to following his. But I'm going to get one of those. Well, definitely with, with the discount code. One of the, with one of the shoe dryers. I think that says like money well spent if it makes your shoes last longer.

And shoe, boots, gloves.

Yeah, definitely, definitely sold on that. So for everyone listening at home, keep on training.

Sam.