Chasing Extremes, Finding Balance: Joao Andrade on Stress, Strategy, and Starting Over

Foreign.

Was an arrhythmia developed by stress which led into tachycardia and eventually loss of consciousness at that day because of peak stress. So that is the biggest wake up call possible to see how we can stress our body so much into non existence if we push it beyond what we should do.

Today we welcome Joao Andre, a man whose extraordinary journey from biotech entrepreneur to heart tested ultra runner offers powerful lessons in health, resilience and leadership. In just five years, Joao progressed from a novice runner to conquering the legendary Badwater 135, all while founding, scaling and exiting a successful biotech business. He's also the co founder of the 100 Global Endurance Race series which he pitched and and was initially backed by Steven Bartlett on Dragon's Den and he's faced a near fatal heart attack mid race. This conversation digs deep on how Zhao balances the demands of business and ultra endurance, how uncovers the moment his body made him stop and explores the mental shifts that fuel his rapid performance rise. You'll hear how business strategies mirror ultra race tactics, why body listening is a non negotiable and what it takes to lead. Lead with grit, heart and vision. If you're striving for a healthier, higher performing life, this episode is your roadmap. So let's dive into the conversation with Joao Andrade.

Do you know what?

When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor please, before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast and every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of Endurance community. Let's dive in. So Joe, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. Really looking forward to chatting to you about running and about business today. So I think we've got, we've got lots to cover and it's actually the business place that I want to start. Normally I start with the endurance sport piece, but for you, I want to start on business. Because you founded Built and then sold a successful business in the insurance space. And what I'd like to start by understanding is what motivated you to step into the entrepreneurial world and what were the early challenges you faced when you did so well.

First of all, thank you very much for having me, Claire and Charlie, it's very good to be here to talk about the two things I like the most, endurance running and endurance entrepreneurship as well. So answering your question, I guess I perhaps didn't deal very well with kind of which was my initial jobs on the corporate structure of having to face too many corporate barriers to introduce innovation into any of the areas that I have previously worked. And I guess one way I like to do things is to try and find simple ways to do it, like the Occam's razor, the simplest solution possible, and go for it and try to bring things to market as, as soon as it's feasible and not a perfect product, but the best product we can launch and then improve it as it is in the marketplace with feedback and so on, which tends to be perhaps what everybody thinks entrepreneurship should be. But then in the real world implementing that is, is very different from theory. And I guess that's what led me to start my own company. More debt than any particular business opportunity. I think it was something I had inside of me already.

Brilliant. And tell us a bit about that business, you know, what led you to, to find that opportunity? Tell us, what problem are you solving?

So previously to my current work at 100, I used to work in the biotech space and so I work for three UK companies. The last one is the one I founded. I'll get to that in a minute. But I used to work to two stem cell labs, one based out of the University of Brunel and the other one in Nottingham. And basically I was responsible for marketing and international development, particularly in the last one. And these were technologies where we would, when a baby is born, the umbilical cord blood is harvested and the umbilical cord tissue, the stem cells that are contained in the umbilical cord blood are then isolated and they can be used in the future to treat family members from the nuclear circle, normally parents, siblings or their own, the own baby. And the technology was to process, isolate the cells and freeze them in a large freezer for periods of up to 30 years. And so basically this was something that was starting to be normalized in more advanced countries, more people having the opportunity to do that via private companies than some public corporate banks started to to appear. And at a point there was an Opportunity to start harvesting stem cells and processing from dental pulp adipose tissue. And also something which is very common, but most people don't recognize it as being a stem cell transplant, which is a bone marrow transplant. Effectively bone marrow contains what is called hemopoietic stem cells that can be used to treat blood diseases and disorders. There was an opportunity to harvest stem cells from grownups, not only from babies, via extracting wisdom teeth or adipose tissue on liposuction procedure. I saw an opportunity to go into that space, try and get some licenses. At the time, if I was able to establish a lab in the uk, I would be under the human tissue authority, able to collect samples from all around, Europe, Middle East. So I could cover a lot of countries with only one stem cell facility. And that's the first thing that came to mind when launching my own company and I had to raise money for it.

And just for those people that don't know much about stem cell work, what give me, give me a really like high level, what sort of impact to people's health or what sort of solutions to stem cell work have the potential to solve?

Well, what is most common is exactly as I was saying is a bone marrow transplant. And this has been done since the 70s. Actually when they started doing it, they didn't know it was the hemacuretic stem cells that were the enabler of successful treatments. Then in the late 70s, the novel was his name, Professor Bob Edwards, which his second right hand man was Peter Hollands, which ended up being the chief scientific officer of my previous company. They started doing and they invented the IVF procedures. And it exactly through that, from working with bone marrow transplants and then starting to do work on ivf, they discovered stem cells. And so over the years up to today, I think there's 82 diseases, if I'm not mistaken, 82 blood diseases and disorders that can be treated. And mainly it's aggressive cancers. And the difficulty is finding a matching donor. That's why so many times we see campaigns of people trying to find a bone marrow donor, but it's very hard to find, to have histocompatibility. And so this service that we provided in my previous company would enable the family if they had stored their baby stem cells from the umbilical cord blood, the baby had that resource for himself or if some close family member needed, they didn't need to go and find a matching donor, which most cases you're unable to find. So they had the resource frozen and they can retrieve it and then ship it to Whatever hospital, medical center in the world, they wanted treatment and, and then receive it.

Brilliant. And, and so, so when it came to exiting the company, what was the moment that you knew it was time to kind of sell that, sell up, move on, leave, you know. What was, what was the toughest part of stepping away?

Well, I guess so. The, the, this company I started, 2012, it grew quite substantially. 2016, we had the opportunity because we saw a lot of interest from the London financial market into perhaps going for an ipo, which we ended up pursuing. And it was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life for sure, by far, by a long stretch. And so we ended up doing an IPO in June 2016 on the Main Market. And after the IPO, which is a lesson I learned by doing it. And very honestly, I didn't have this advice from anyone. I had to learn it from myself. Our product was at the point we were getting the first signs in the market that it was working, but we were not in a scale position yet. And doing the IPO would mean we'll have to build stem cell lab from scratch and then complete the final stage of developments of what became as a dream product, which was to build the first stem cell insurance policy in the world. Because as, as I was saying, families imagine they have, they had their stem cells stored and they paid 2,000 or 3,000 pounds to process and freeze the stem cells at the point that the family member needs to access treatment. Most stem cell treatments are spread all around the world, not concentrated in one specific country. So if you need to use the stem cells, you'll probably have to fly elsewhere. Which means that if you have even the good public national health care system, they'll most likely not cover you to receive treatment abroad. And no private insurance policy, insurance plan would cover a stem cell treatment at that point. And that's the most innovative product that we came up in that company. And that's what truly attracted the, the interest from the financial markets. Because here we had 3 million families around the world with stem cells frozen and uninsured, if we are able to insure them and sell this policy all around the world, cheap price because it has very low incidence, but when it happens, it's very costly. It could be a very successful product and help a lot of people at the same time. But doing that in doing an IPO at that time, it changed the company completely. We were still a small young company. It was a nano cap ipo. And so as we were rolling out the product in different countries, I was jumping on planes. We were building the laboratory and trying to get the human Tissue authority license, the license for our insurance products. Growing the teams burning through cash. Then we started doing additional placings in the market. Maybe we did five or six, something around £12 million, something like that. The reality is I was working 100 to 120 hour weeks basically and that's when ultrarunning came into my life actually was as a way to bounced back from the incredible obsession with work. I became an extreme workaholic and I needed a drastic change in my life. And ultrarunning came as a. Perhaps initially as a coping mechanism, later on as something very, very useful. And it was perhaps one of the most wise decisions. Top three decisions I've made in my life has been to start doing ultra races. But in any case the exits it wasn't the nice beautiful story perhaps I guess end of 2018 the larger largest shareholder made hostile bids because we were a quoted company and they wanted to revert other businesses into our company using it almost as a shell, keep the stem cell business and revert others. They had a lot of cash. I couldn't accompany their, the investment that they were making. From a personal standpoint, I put all my blood, sweat, tears, money into the company. And so we found the most favorable solution for everyone. And for me it was either trying to fight and gain my position maybe with 1% chances or the other one would be to try and make the best deal out for everybody and make good money for myself to start my next company with a lot of experience in my back. And at the time that's the decision I made perhaps to favor everyone else, not in my own personal favorite. And I was happy with that decision. So that's kind of my exit which was very timely because at the back of my mind I had 100 already in there. And so I combined both things. I guess it's not that it's destiny but things kind of impose themselves.

It's amazing actually when I was listening and reading before speaking to you today. I come from a healthcare background and it was really interesting for me to learn about this insurance around stem cell. And I can only imagine what went on as you were telling that story in terms the kind of everything to build, to build that company. I mean it. God, you were working so many hours and, and no wonder you had to find some outlet to that. And you mentioned obviously about ultra running so I'm going to come to that now. So you know you were talking about the, the number of hours you were working but ultimately what you know, most people might say well I'll just start kind of going for a run. But what drew you into ultra running? You know, was it kind of escaping? Was it this huge kind of needing something else like a challenge or people around you, like what was it that drew you to that, to Ultrarunning?

I think it's, in some cases I think it's a good thing for me. I think in some other cases can be a bad thing. And I try to be more and more aware of these decisions as I'm getting older and more, more different life experiences. But I guess at that point either it was something a bit radical and that for me was like it happens to many other ultra runners. I just, on the 23rd of December before Christmas, I was sitting around the house and I googled the toughest endurance sports in the world. I didn't know exactly what was going to happen. And the list came up as it comes to a lot of other people that have told me kind of a very similar story. Badwater135 was at the top. I went immediately to YouTube, saw a video and for a very strange reason I found that one of the most appealing things I have ever seen. And immediately I spoke with my wife. It was a five minute conversation. I said I think I found the solution to get out of this situation. I mean of working all the time. I explained what it was, showed it to her. She said you're definitely a bit crazy, but I think you should do it. Maybe that's what it is. And it was a very hard, very easy commitment for us to make. Little did I know what was going to follow after that, but it was, I guess to answer your question, I needed something a bit, it had to be big to draw my attention. If it was something just starting for fun, I'll, I'll just probably would stop eventually. It had to be something like a long term goal and had have to change my lifestyle to be able to do it.

And, and what I mean your, your kind of progression through ultra running was, was pretty quick, wasn't it? From like in those first five years to doing Badwater. So what really changed, you know, for you, like either you know, psychologically or physically during those sort of five years, what, what had to happen for, for this ultra running to sort of work?

I think initially it was perhaps not the best approach the first year and a half because I didn't really stop working, stop working as much as I was before. I was just adding all the training to it. So imagine I was in a flight from Portugal to the UK and then all of a sudden, I mean, another flight and I did maybe two, three minutes fly to Sao Paulo, land and go on a treadmill to run some 20k, maybe, maybe sleep two hours if I could and then jump again on meetings and jet lag. And I leave that for a while. And I think because I found it exciting, these new avenue, I was able to sustain it. But it was like I was imagine I'm going down the well, I get to the bottom of the well, there's a little door, I opened that and there was still space to go. And I think I opened that little door and went in for the first year and a half and, and only then I started making the adjustments I needed. It was very obvious that I was going in the wrong direction.

Interesting. So. So for that first year and a half, I'm fascinated. I always talk a lot about work, life, balance, but what I also find is that people, when they get really busy and really stressed, they. The first thing they drop is the thing that kept them de stressed in the first place, which is typically things like exercise or hobbies. So did you find that in that first year and a half, even though you didn't take anything away, you just added in ultra running or running, which is adding an extra commitment. Did you find that you dealt with that stress from work better during that year before you started dropping things away?

Absolutely, for sure. So I, I think there was a benefit in terms of the way I was looking into work and I guess in a way it's the sense of perhaps self worth. So imagine if, if I wouldn't train for a day, I wouldn't feel worthy. And so that will draw me into over training, which is not positive. And because of that I was adding stress on the exercise parts, but it was releasing because imagine that there's a hundred percent of stress I could apply in the day and maybe this is a crazy analogy, but. And then I was just adding more stress into the training and less stress into work. But what that started to show in perhaps a funky way was that the company was not going to die or anyone if I wasn't there for 100 or 120 hours. And I started noticing because I was committing more time to training and traveling to races and having to abstain myself from work. As I was entering 100 mile race, my wife was there, my children were there and I started having these different interactions in the races with them as well, which is completely different environment. Here we are in the mountain I just came from the city, I dropped my suit and tie and I'm here dressed as a trail runner, which I'm not entirely sure. Am I a trail runner? I was thinking in my mind, even I was questioning pretty much everything. But I guess it was a balance of stress. So it took stress away from work, but overall the stress was, was the same perhaps more, perhaps less days with less stress or more days, more stress because I was adding now to things. And that's I think the first 18 months of the journey.

And, and so then beyond that 18 months, what was it that really triggered you to kind of rebalance and kind of check, you know, sort out this balance better? And was it. What were the signs that your body or your brain were, were giving you to tell you that it was time that, you know, that was. It was needed?

To be perfectly honest, and I like to be a straight shooter, say things exactly as they are. I was ignoring all my body signals and mind signals and that's just what it was. I was consciously ignoring them in a pursuit of trying to do something extremely hard because I thought there was something positive at the end of it. I truly thought there was something positive. But then the hostile beat came along and I saw that there was a hand few of people literally. And we all know this, we know this from hearing from other people. I knew this from reading books and from my. What my dad used to tell me when I was younger and you know, my brother and so on. But when it actually happens at that level on a public quoted company and I'm the CEO, the founder and I'm seeing myself with people around me and thinking I'm kind of a lone wolf in here. Since the day one that I came from Portugal, I'm the only Portuguese that did an IPO in London still to today I went into the city, I didn't know anyone. I really felt like a lone wolf, but only looking backwards, not as I was doing it. I thought I was, I was crushing it. I thought, oh my God, I'm doing something unbelievable. But looking back, I was, I didn't pay attention and I thought I was. And this is, you know, maybe this doesn't sound humble, but it doesn't matter. It's. Maybe someone is going through the same and maybe this can help them. I just thought I was crushing it. And actually there were people that were smarter than me and I wasn't noticing and they were like, I also do a bit of jujitsu. They were squeezing me to the point where they would submit me And I, I wasn't paying attention to the techniques being used. I knew maybe four or five people, other people maybe knew 10 about how to do a no style beat. I've never been through the process, so I guess that was a turning point. I said I need to, you know, look after myself first, my family first of all, and people that truly, truly supports and do something that I can measure the impact of things more realistically and less of the frivolous world of the financial markets and so on that I was living in, or at least if I need to live in that world, I will take it for what it is and not pretend that it isn't what it is. And so I guess that's in a way what happened.

And I mean, you have raced hundreds and hundreds of miles now, haven't you? What do you think stands out across those races as like the best experience that you've had? And also on the flip side, what do you think some of those toughest races have really taught you?

All the things that are coming to my mind are the negative ones that turn into positives.

Well, start there. I mean, that's.

Yeah. So for example, I had this big goal of running Badwater and I had to do quite a bit of races and a lot of training to do that. And by the time I get there, I have had some good results. So they, the race has three waves. They put me on the last one, which is probably where the fastest run runners are. So I was in the, in very fit. I was feeling great. I thought I can do maybe a top five, a top ten, something like that, which will be unbelievable in four or five years. But then I crossed the finish line and felt absolutely nothing. And even my wife trained a lot and she's not an ultra runner to be in the race screwing for me and pace for me and so on, which is. Was a beautiful thing. And she crossed the line. She was, she was very happy. And I, I wasn't feeling good because I was looking at her extremely happy and smiling and everybody. Because I had accomplished what I've tried for many years with all the other challenges in between. But I felt an unbelievable sense of emptiness and I didn't know where it came from. It took quite, quite a while to. To understand. But perhaps it was because of that moment of emptiness that I truly started changing the direction of my life and, and perhaps that led to truly the way that we are doing things in 100 nowadays. It all has a lot to do with that Badwater moment. You asked.

Well, I was Just going to say, can I just dig a little bit deeper on that and say what, you know what, what did you put it down to? What was that? That sort of numbness and that lack of excitement? What did you really conclude that was.

Because that, that, that was not actually what, what I was chasing. And in a way in my mind I had visual, already knew that I could do it. And I, again, this might not sound humble, but it was what I was feeling. So I have to tell it exactly as I was. I don't want to appear as, you know, all these guys, super humble. And it's not what it is. What I was feeling is I will do it. And so when I got to the finish line in my mind I had already visualized that finish line 100,000 times. I had it in front of my treadmill, I had it on the back of my phone, I had in my, it was the, the screen of my computer. I had it everywhere. And I had it imprinted in my mind now, imprinted in my brain. That opened the door for me to start thinking what was actually happening with me. That I was always putting myself into situations of extreme, whether it was in business or in sports, always putting myself into extreme situations. Even though these are very tough challenges, they, they don't need to be faced from an extreme position, but I was facing them from an extreme position as well and maybe overhyping it a little bit, even perhaps to look better in the eyes of others. And that's what started to get me thinking, why am I actually doing this?

And what do you think when you think to the kind of those real highs? Because it's really interesting when that's not the first time we've heard where people have crossed a finish line and gone. Actually this doesn't quite feel like I was expecting, but thinking back to some of those Amazing Race experiences, what are some of the highs that you experienced? Like thinking of those amazing moments? Like what? Tell us about some of those.

I think my amazing moments are always come from something that happened in the race, almost always happen afterwards. But definitely this year at 100, we organized a race called the Costa Rica 200. I find it hard to believe that, and of course it's subjective, but I find it hard to believe that there is any 200 mile race harder than this one that we organize this year. And we organize it in a pioneer format only. We've invited athletes not open to the public. So this was 209 miles. I wouldn't be able to convert now in feet, but it's 33000 meter accumulated elevation gain and loss. So 16,500 elevation gain 16,500 meters. So twice Mount Everest.

Wow.

Three jungle sections. The most humid place we can imagine. We went just next to the Corcovado national park, which is the most biodiverse place on earth. More than deep Amazon. And it was extremely technical, muddy, it rains. We had the sun out with unbelievable temperatures and 10 aid stations along the course. Which isn't a lot for segments where we would have 45k with 4500 meter climb and 4700 descent. This doesn't even exist in a single race. And this is only one of the segments in Costa Rica. 200 and I guess all the race pretty much was. It was very different because it involves a lot of the jungle sections. We had some indigenous guides in a few parts as well. There's three jungle sections, but the last one which I covered during the night and then only three runners finished the race. I was one of them. And we did between 94 and 102 hours between the three of us. So that puts you in perspective the level of difficulty of these 200 mile race and everybody, they are all very, very, very good athletes, especially in jungle or very extreme races. But I guess the, the last segments, which we now call the monster segment. This 45k with 4500 ascents and then the four sent into the deep jungle through the night with a headlamp, all eyes reflecting everywhere, incredible insect noises, other animals, I didn't know what they were and just very, very technical. Like if I was playing Super Mario and I was young and H leveling becomes harder. I cannot save it. You know, I won't be able to save it. I have to go and do the 14 levels in a row in one go. I guess it was really positive because for the first time in all the races I've done in my life, I wasn't looking at it as much as a struggle maybe in a way to avoid the adrenaline rush, fight or flight mode as well. I was just trying to appreciate the fact that I was able to be there, that I was healthy, that we had designed these unbelievable course that's, you know, three days had gone by, maybe there's only one to go. And that I was able to do it. I was after halfway through the Monster segment, I was happy. And it's very hard for me to remember moments of happiness. Okay, I can do a race maybe joyful but happy. Happy. It's very hard, but I was actually feeling Very happy. And when I was arriving at the aid station, I was saying, because the race ends at the beach, I'll say, vamos a la playa, let's go to the beach. And so I was happy. I was facing the race in a very different way. And I was very proud of myself even at the end because I didn't look at his as this is the biggest suffering of my life or any of that. It was by far the hardest race I've done by a hundred miles. But it was, it was the one that I faced with more joyful and happiness. So maybe more mature as well. And even, you know, just facing up and looking at things, not just looking at the floor, I was actually looking and seeing these huge leaves. They were bigger than the car. And I was paying attention to all these things out there and not just, you know, focus on the steps.

I mean, I, I think between Charlie and I, it's probably another thing on our, on our bucket list now, listening to you speak. And when I was, when I was looking at the 100, which I'm going to come on to, I was thinking, yep, this is, this is definitely on the bucket list now. So talk to us, you've mentioned a couple of times about the 100 and I'd love to dive a bit deeper into. Talk to us about, you know, where did this happen in the evolution of your ultra running? What's, what's the concept? So for those people who don't know what the 100 is, tell us a little bit about it.

Well, I think the genesis of 100 comes because. And let's combine a little bit of the entrepreneurship side with, with ultra running. I guess at the point was where I was about to exit and sell my position in my previous company. I was doing ultra running for three at that point. And as a new, you know, athlete in the sports, I was trying to look for, you know, what are the most interesting long distance races in the world. Between 100 miles and 200 miles more. 200 miles were starting to pop up between 2017 and 2019. And then I was thinking, okay, who are the best athletes seeing these distances, particularly the hundred mile, 200 mile, okay, there is a few circuits out there and things were evolving during that time. But I, but it's not like, you know, people from Asia, Australia, Africa, South America, US and Europe are actually competing in the same race at the same time. The big, big athletes, some of them maybe cannot even afford travel to come and run these races. And I thought this is a little bit strange. Because here we are, and at the time, and I'm a numbers person at the time, you know, we were witnessing already more true runners than triathletes. And then you have 600 million runners worldwide, huge exodus of people coming into trail running. So there will be more people in the sport in the future. A huge market for trail running shoes, which was the only place I could actually find good resourceful information to build a business plan on the back of some proper research. Because there's almost nothing out there in terms of good research into the events side of the trail running market, particularly at that time. Now there's a little bit more, but I wouldn't say it's even bronze standard. There's some studies that people do autonomously, but not something extremely deep. And I was just seeing these movements and thinking, okay, there's a concentration of races in Central Europe and the US but the world is huge. There's so many mountains to be explored around the world. And if people want to do these challenges, they end up like me, having to travel to the US to do a bad water or gold to this or that country to be able to run these races. And so a few ideas started coming to my mind, but I think the three biggest questions were, who are the best athletes actually in the very, very long distances? The second one is why isn't there a global stage? Focus on 100 mile, 200 mile particularly. That's where the first image came to my mind. The third point is there's a high concentration in certain places, but we have the Himalayas, we have mountains in Brazil, there's so, so many mountains in the Middle east and other places in Asia, in Africa. And perhaps there's an opportunity here to build a true global competition more on off World Championship format with a final and get pro elite athletes competing and going to a final and having big prize parts and good live broadcasting and bringing the big brands and perhaps creating or enabling a platform for teams to appear as well. Not just the ones coming from the running shoe brands, but actually teams as we see in triathlon and other sports that could start having multiple sponsors to reel in the big athletes and invest in them and have a professional field, more of a professional emphasis and at the same time open up short distances, but not World Championship competitions to have mass participation, more economical impact in the regions and have more people, you know, having the opportunity to try out these, these great sports and jump out the sofa, of course. So that, that was the initial concept. From there, the evolution was into, okay, building the first endurance trail World championship. And that means races around the world for 200 miles, 100 miles and 100k. And not a broad definition of trail running, but actually something more specific, which we are, we are calling endurance mountain trail running and we have the definition on our website and it is actually running trails in the mountain. Not like you have race on the beach with 200km and that's a trail running race. And there you go, you have a certification, nothing like that. When you go to a 100 race, you know it's a mountain trail race. It's not a different type of events. And then we started looking into what are, where are these places where they explore mountain ranges and locations where we can bring the races, but that at the same time we can have resources to put together the initial events and make them grow into eventually creating a very positive economical impact and having more athletes being able to professionalize, but also being able to provide more, which is perhaps the fundamental of what everybody does in ultra running is provide a transformational experience for athletes that come and run these races, as I have experienced myself as well. So I think that that's 100.

Okay, fantastic. I mean it sounds fantastic. And listening to you speak about it, obviously the person that introduced us was Chris McCormack Macca, as the world of triathlon knows him as. I'm seeing some similarities between Super TR and what you guys are doing. So, so how is, how has Chris sort of come in and started partnering or working with you on this? What have you learned from Super Tri? And also when's MACA doing one of the hundred mile races?

That's a very, very good question. Especially the second one. The first one is what I think. I guess one of the biggest goals we had in our team was to try and find someone that would combine an almost impossible cv, which will be a great international athlete with many accolades, but at the same time someone that has founded an international league of sorts or a championship, a series. I've actually gone through the process for a few years and I'm in international expansion. And when you start looking in endurance sports or these type of sports, more athletics is not very, very easy to find there. There ain't many people. And so actually I was introduced to Chris by one of our shareholders at 100, one of our investors, very, very bright guy that in the conversation he remembered about Marca, Chris McCormick and introduced, to be very honest, he was very precise in his due diligence and I mean due diligence overall, to be involved to, to see if he could contribute to put his face to it as well, to push his cash into it as well. And so he did the very, very detailed due diligence and perhaps more on the personal side as well in how the people that are developing the championship. So during many months we had many meetings, many conversations which culminated in a week together and then we shook hands and took pictures and off we went. But I guess the opportunity that Chris has seen is the opportunity from a business standpoint, which in turn is I think the greatest leverage possible for the sports. So if we can combine both, I think it's win, win for the sport, the athletes, for all the stakeholders, but also for anyone coming into the 100 ecosystem, which is at the moment it's not the most expensive sports to come in if we compare it to others because they have very little benchmarks and the people that have benchmarks have it very well hidden because there aren't many transactions and there are public transactions with values. How much this race was acquired for, sold for. Everybody's trying to guess or here is from here or there, someone there know and they all talk. But it's not an open market in that respect. And at the same time on the athlete side there's a huge opportunity to create, create a true global stage for them. And perhaps when we look into the older gear, apparel, running shoe, it's in the billions of dollars now this market. So I guess there's much more money to be made by the athletes and it will happen. It's like trying to stop the wind with their hands. It will happen. It's just a matter of time. It's like two or three years and there will be in my view, in our view in a completely different position. But the timing to come in is now and the window will get, you know, it's like triathlon is very expensive to build a super tri when you come against, you know, pd, pto, rmn, although it's very specific the type of the format, but you are in established sport you expect to have certain things done at a certain level that do not even exist in the intro running at the moment. It's coming towards that but is still not there. So I guess the dilution to profitability ratio, intro running my view is the the most investable sport in the world in this year and next year and then perhaps you'll stop being and this is the most important ratio of the mall. And perhaps that's where I have my eyes on and Chris has had his eyes on. So acquiring assets, getting athletes in the impact we can have with actual cash in the sports is tremendous. And these resources can, you know, affect very, in a very positive fashion, the lives of athletes, enable teams to appear, have new mountain ranges with more races and people not having to travel so much to reach a 200 mile or 100 mile. And if they want, they will have a bigger offering as well. Like we are having the first non stop 100 mile ultra trail in three weeks in the Himalayas in the Ladakh and that never happened before. So we are opening up these amazing races around the world.

Brilliant. Oh, it says, it sounds really cool and it's really exciting. You didn't answer the second question. When's Macca doing his ultra?

I think we need to try and get him on the, on the, on the top to do that. That's the question that I have as well. So as I guess as I know the world will know.

Excellent.

I think it will happen. So it's just a matter of when and which one.

Brilliant. Well, I'm sure he'll be sledging all of the other athletes and kind of. Yeah, but I'm sure he will be excel at it. And so one of the things that is amazing I thought was the fact that you took trail running to Dragon's Den and, you know, pitched to the Dragons this concept of the 100. What brought you to Dragon's Den and how was the experience and you know, to tell us what was the outcome of what happened on the day and the event.

I guess we've done a few things which have been a little bit different from, I guess from what I know and I've done quite a bit of research on it and if there's other people, I'll actually love to meet them and share experiences, maybe do something together. Well, we went to the investor community to raise funds for 100 to apply in designing the first events. And so, I mean, the decision to go to Dragons Den. And we also did a crowdfunding campaign with Crowdcube, which is one of the largest equity crowdfunding platforms in the world. We have a private equity on board already, which is not normal for a company our size, but they are seeing the future. So I guess going to Dragons then was in a way a big marketing opportunity because here we will have trail running. In the eyes of people that have never come across trail running, never heard of it before, never knew that someone can run 100 miles or anything like that and get them intrigued to look into the sport. Secondly, by appearing on Dragons then a lot of the investors in this world will notice True, running as an investable product and start perhaps to take troll running more seriously from a resource standpoint, something more investable. And thirdly, just having the opportunity to tell the 100 story in a condensed format that could then be shipped with credibility and reputation to people around the world like a very nice piece of content on BBC on that special show that has so many views and if it went well, we could send it everywhere. However, if it goes wrong, it might actually be one of the worst things possible. Thankfully, it went really well. It's one of the most different episodes. I wouldn't want to say controversial. And whoever is listening if they haven't watched it, I highly recommend that you do to hear more about 100. But particularly the ending was unexpected, guess a little bit different. And then Steven Bartlett said yes at the end. It was kind of very quick decision between the two of us on shaking hands. And the other Dragons were hesitating too much on making an offer. I like people that, you know, go ahead and make offers and don't stand around, you know, losing an opportunity. And at the back of my mind is Stephen had asked the question three times and he was getting impatient. If I wouldn't say yes, maybe he will drop out. And I didn't have any other offer. And so, you know, Maybe I have 80 or 90% of the comments on the Internet, whatever that means, supporting me because of that, maybe 10% or so saying, oh, you should have listened to the others. But in that precise day, that seemed to be the best thing to do. And Steven was actually the person we were looking at the time because of his communication platform that perhaps could help us have an impact and reach the four corners of the world.

And how has having Steven Bartlett as an investor panned out so far? What's happened?

Well, things after the show not always turn out as they are portrayed in the show. So it was followed by a few months of renegotiations of what was agreed on the screen. We ended up not finding common ground. I guess he was asking for too much. And maybe now already, or in the future, he will perhaps regret not having invested. I don't know, maybe we'll talk about it in his podcast one day looking back, or he has an opportunity to come back again in the future.

Let's see.

Yeah, I mean, I think let's watch this space in terms of, you know, where, where it's all going with the, with the 100 as well. Just amazing. And what an amazing experience to be on Dragon's Den as well.

So, yeah, it was very good as a platform. But also this experience of not having, you know, ended up coming through with Steven on also made me rethink who we wanted on board. And I guess everything we're discussing, or almost all of it in this podcast is how to take something that happens that goes a little bit sideways and then how that helps to shift the right decision. And then I started who is the right person? Eventually, you know, a year and a bit after that, we got Chris McCormack on board, which is precisely the type of person that we actually needed to have here. So it ended up being a better person to come on board and occupy that position and is already having a drastic positive effect in the company. But the door is open to Steven one day. We don't know.

Keep the door open. You were talking just there and I'm just going to bounce back a little bit now, but you were talking just there about things sometimes happen for a reason. And doing some research about you before this episode, you experienced some arrhythmia, heart problems on a race. I mean, that could have turned out as a complete, you know, disaster. So tell us a little bit about, you know, what happened, but also, you know, after that experience, how did it shape you? How did it change you?

Actually, this podcast is in. Is we are recording this in perhaps one of the best moments, if not the best moment I could talk about my life actually, because most of these crazies, I don't know what's going to come next. But. But a lot of the things that put me on a much more confident, mature position of how things should be done and what I want for my life, I'm standing now being able to talk about them with less questions. I had much more questions before, particularly this incident. So one of the things I've been doing with 100 is whenever there's a new race, I try and go and run the race myself. So I said just Costa rica. So in three weeks we're doing the 100 mile in Ladakh because high altitude racing, always above 3500 meters, up to 5400, I'm going to run. So this race, Crotrail, is the oldest three digit trail running race in Europe. It had started in the 2000s. Next year is the 20th edition. So I wanted to try out the race and see how we could revive it to make it, you know, the big race that it was before when Marco Olmo was winning the race and Michele Graglon went and win and so on and so forth. And so I wanted to try the race, see the course, how it could be improved and Potentially not only 100k but do 100 mile race there. But that year there was a segment of the tunnel that collapsed, so the race had to be shortened to 40k. So this was last year, so. But we never announced 100k. The tunnel was already shut, so we launched the 40k. So I'm going to run the race to know a section of the course, Just try it out. And I guess that there is an accumulation of all the years, of all my life, of everything, all these stories that I'm telling push me towards a day where I'm organizing a race and at the same time I'm running it. I come from a lot of travels, a lot of things accumulated over time, not enough rest and recover. And also something I have not talked about because the truth is by 2022 I. I was in a major, major depression. And so I was taking specific medication for that as well. And I guess there's a potential interaction there with what happened that day. So here I am pushing myself on a stressful moment on event day, running the race myself, which makes it a bit more stressful and running the race that I am organizing. And it was just 3km in the race. I started feeling chest pain, my left arm going a bit numb. I was feeling my heart going all over the place. Of course we know ourselves when things are not right. It wasn't feeling right. So I called my. My crew teammate and told him I'm not feeling very well, something is strange. I'm feeling my heart beats very unusual. And told him just to pay attention to my GPS tracker in case something happened, just overall pay attention. He said, maybe it's best that you stop there and just stop, just end the race. And I said, well, you know, this race is sometimes like that. You're feeling a little bit strange. And then you continue, I'll go slowly and then you just bounce back. But I found it strange because it was really at the beginning. Of course it was a very steep ascent, maybe at 3k with 400 meters or something, but still it was the beginning of the race. But then I only remember turning left and I don't have any other memory. I know maybe some 700 meters after the point, I have my last memory of turning left is where the two runners that were following me just behind me, they. I was woken up by them. And they, of course I was seeing two people dressed as athletes with their backpacks and poles and so on, and they were speaking in Italian. Which I understand. And they were saying don't worry, we are doctors. But I was seeing people in, you know, trail running gear so I was bit confused. But the truth is I was helped in maybe under two minutes after I faith in by the two runners that were following me which is perhaps the biggest divine intervention possible. They were both doctors, father and daughter and they assisted me in under two minutes. And God knows if they weren't there, what would have happened? Maybe nothing, maybe something really bad. But they helped me. I was helivacked out of the race. Safety and rescue was absolutely incredible. Also an experience to have which, you know, to be carried on the stretcher a mile going down was extremely hard to find an open area so that the helicopter could take me out. So the, the military team of the Cuneo area in the Italian Alps did an unbelievable job carrying me. They were very strong men for sure. And I was helivacked out, spent three days there, then hospitalized in Portugal and took about, I took all the tests possible for about three months. And yeah, what I had was an arrhythmia developed by stress which led into tachycardia and eventually loss of consciousness at that day because of peak stress. So that is the biggest, you know, wake up call possible to see how we can stress our body so much into, into non existence if we push. It's beyond, I don't want to say beyond the limits, but beyond what we should do perhaps. Yeah, that's when then I took three months off and, and doctor recommendation and all of that and did everything that they said and changed diet, change my schedule, changed the team at 100, change my, the way I was, you know, my lifestyle, how I was organizing my time, a lot of things. I thought about everything in detail and how my life should be and then started implementing in November. And I'm having the best results in all fronts in my life since then. Brilliant. Best thing that ever happened to me was this hearts issue.

I mean it's, it's. I mean it's amazing luck that those two runners knew what to do when they found you and they found you in such time. But it also really highlights. So now that you've got this kind of reason to. I often say that entrepreneurs have this great opportunity to live their life by their design, but you often need that reason to actually do that as opposed to kind of letting it become all consuming. Which sort of leads me on to a final question before we do the ones that we'll always finish with. And that is you obviously really battled through the entrepreneurship side of your life. But you've battled through some of the toughest runs on the planet. Which is tougher? Ultra running or being an entrepreneur?

Oh, I'm sorry. Athletes everywhere around the world. For me, entrepreneurship at, at least in the way that I do it and that I know and maybe someone does it in a different fashion and I'm trying to learn that as well. But seeing my experience and I can only talk about my experience, it has been way harder because here you are in few years ultra marathon. That's what building a company is, is not something I look at an ultramaritan and I think it's short. If it's a 200 mile two day race, it ends and then you go and rest, recover and prepare the next one. In ultra running in entrepreneurship it's, it's, it's a daily, it's not a not just battle. I don't want to put a negative tone to it but there's problems every day that you need to solve and problems don't mean, don't mean that they're negative. You also create problems for yourself to resolve. They're just problems they need resolving and they're a bunch of different problems. Particularly on a startup when you're trying to do some innovation, but particularly when you're trying to grow something internationally, speaking different languages and understand technical aspects and specifically intro running, finding the right local organizing committees in the different mountain ranges and get some more of the amateurish mountain associations that are organized with their hearts but perhaps trying to be a little bit more not professional but more structured into something which is global. Could try and create something that is more structured, not just built with the heart, but something that works, that people know if they go to India or to South Africa or to Brazil that they will have a safe event events. They know this is a 100 event when they get there. They know what the experience will be and this is not an easy thing. So there's loads of problems. Entrepreneurship is harder at least for me.

I, I, I figured you might say that based on the conversation. But I think it, there's also a lot of, a lot of lessons that both can teach you, you know, one to the other, isn't there? So yeah, fascinating. But yes it's, but it is also absolutely, absolutely possible to, to have this life by design and it not to be that way because you know, I mean ultimately that's what I, I'm all about preaching the whole work life balance thing and sometimes you've got to go slower to go faster and all that sort of stuff. So, so it is absolutely possible we like to wrap this podcast up with two particular questions. The first is and we've you've mentioned sort of books sort of briefly earlier on but what's specifically what books have you found that have helped you the most and do you find yourself recommending to others or kind of that you go back to or you think there were a turning point?

Can I answer that in my true own way of looking into where, where you get knowledge from?

Yeah, please do.

I I believe the biggest lessons for me haven't come from, from our knowledge from books actually have come from let's say and I'll put names to it quickly. We are talking about balance ultra running. Some of the best things I've learned have been from the Italian ultra runner Francesca Canepa. And Francesca, she won tor de Jean UTMB, etc. A lot of these things. And she's coaching me nowadays on how to look at my body, you know, body battery and stress, my sensei in jiu jitsu, how to keep my mind cool when I'm being submitted or and try to find an escape and hold on and if there's no escape just tap and go again. Don't be afraid to tap. And I guess most of my life has been designed by not tapping. So either I faint or, or I come out of it and I guess with him I learned to tap when there's, you know, there's no other way. Now I need to tap perhaps with my father which is actually from Chris Vox in, in a book. Chris Voss also says that my father says it bit differently but it's like in life overall ultra running or entrepreneurship, you don't rise to the occasion. You fall to your highest level of preparation. And that's something that always my father instilled on me and he was very heavy handed and I'm sure that had a huge impact in the way that I am today. So I, I guess it's more on, you know, that friend, that person that you look up to, the person you had the opportunity like Chris Macca. Hey mate, hope is not a strategy, you know, more of actually list to people that are close to us instead of just searching the big examples from people outside or in books. If there's anything it's trying to pay more attention to people that sometimes are close to us. They're saying things that are very important but because we know them sometimes we don't think, don't value them as much as they are. In a nice book with A nice cover. Of course, I'm favored to be put in positions where I've known these unbelievable people and getting advice from Keith McCormick or Francesca Canepa and so on, or even entrepreneurship, but actually less in entrepreneurship. I have better advice within ultra running by a hundredfold than I have gotten from entrepreneurs everywhere. And this just came to my, to my mind now, I guess. Interesting. That's my. And then, you know, this is what it is. But for me, the biggest book, but this from a religious standpoint is the Bible. And I follow it it thoroughly. The best that I can for me is the biggest, best book in the world. Almost everything that I'm thinking is, is right or wrong. If I go back to it, I think I found an answer there. But I wanted to answer more on perhaps paying attention to people around us. Sometimes they say, well, and I have to say my wife best advice is always, almost always because she knows me very well and I'm listening more and more over time to little things that she says and she's only almost always right.

Brilliant, Brilliant. And I'm hoping that she's going to listen to this because you're going to get some, you're going to get some brownie points for calling her out there. You can have that one just for you. But no, I think it's absolutely brilliant. And you know, they say that you become the average of the five people you hang out with most. And so in ultra running, it sounds like you're hanging out with some amazing people. And perhaps, perhaps in the entrepreneur side, you, you maybe need to find a few more of those people that are going to, going to help you. So we like to finish off this podcast very similar to Stephen Bartlett actually. And we get the last guest to ask the next guest a question without, without them knowing who that is. And our last guest was the amazing Stacy Sims. And I think Claire's got Stacy's question lined up.

It's a good one. So if you could give your younger self the knowledge that you've got today, would you do it? And why?

Well, well, that's the best question to end really, because it will encapsulate everything that I've just said. So when I was born, I was born with my umbilical cord around my neck. And so I was born dead. And I was dead for two minutes and I was resuscitated, revived by the medical team. And that is the experience that was imprinted in my ans to my peripheral nervous system forever. And everything that I do is into a kind of survival Instinct basis and if why I'm an entrepreneur or why am I an ultra runner? Have a lot of. To do with this thing that happened, but I left it too much much later on and it's been the last year that I paid any attention to it because two amazing people told me about it and psychiatrist and psychologists that told me where this was all coming from. After trying to help me find the best way to leave, which is what I'm doing now, I believe. So I guess I wouldn't leave putting myself. The advice would be not to leave putting myself into very dangerous situations to come out of it, but to feel more confident that I'm in control and it's fine to leave things as they are most of the time.

Brilliant. Fascinating. Yeah, I think it's a really challenging question, isn't it? Because, like, you wouldn't have the experiences of, of that you've had if you had all of that knowledge, but equally you wouldn't make some of the mistakes too. So, yeah, really, really interesting. Joe, it's been fascinating chatting to you. Love diving into your business story and the Dragon's Den piece, but also absolutely love diving into the running side and what you are building with the 100 with the help of Macca. So huge congratulations on that and bringing trail running to the forefront. And also, you know, just definitely those races are getting added to my bucket list and looking forward to coming and experiencing one at some point when we can fit it into our busy schedules. But. But that was absolutely brilliant. Really, really great to chat to you. You. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Charlie. Thank you so much. Claire, this absolutely fantastic question. Just loved it. You made my day, actually.

Thank you. So what did you make of the interview with Jo?

I think it's a great story of where he's come from, like the business that he had built. So that was really like, from a science perspective, that was really interesting for me around stem cells and then him actually getting into the insurance part of that and. Yeah, and selling that as an, as an insurance to people. So I kind of, I guess at the beginning see how his entrepreneurship had kind of started in that world. And then of course, he kind of has gone into another, let's say, kind of health avenue, hasn't he, with his 1, you know, 100 format as well. But it was really interesting to speak to him. But I'll let you fill in the details a little bit because we were going to ask, weren't we, about what it was like to be on Dragon's Den, which we did Actually, but also the funding that and working with Stephen Bartlett. But that wasn't, that was another story, wasn't it? So what about you? What did you take away from it?

I thought it was a huge amount to learn from. I think certainly the lessons that he had in terms of building up that initial business and selling it, but also it actually being a hostile takeover and just the stress that he would have been under from that and how running was seen as a solution to that work life, life imbalance. But then actually in time it just added more stress because yes, from a fitness point of view, it probably helped him, but it added a whole, you know, he didn't do it by half, did. He went straight off and, you know, like basically set a goal to do the bad water, which is the hardest.

One you could do.

Yeah, exactly. The hardest rain in the world, almost. And I think, I think what was interesting was when we came full circle and you think about it, you like, he obviously had that heart failure on one of the races and you think was that actually kind of the culmination of all of that stress and that lack of work life balance. And actually something that we touched on after we stopped recording was the fact that because of that work life imbalance, he hadn't been getting as much sleep as he should have done. He's probably getting five hours a night. And I think that that also is a compound effect of, yes, working too hard and squeezing too much in and burning candle at both ends. But also that's a reflection on then what led, you know, led to the heart failure, I suspect. So it kind of, it felt like it come full circle and, and I think that's probably why he got quite emotional at that last question from Stacy Sims, because I think when I thought about it afterwards, I thought actually he's come pretty close to dying as a result of all of the pressure he'd built up. And he succeeded both in business and like phenomenal running achievements, but at what cost? And now I think perhaps he's just found that balance better so that he can take much more and he's delegated way more within, within the biz, the business, the 100 and. And also. So I think that that was the biggest takeaway for me was like, he's come full circle and he's now seen the, the reason why that balance is so important. And then of course there was the Dragon's Den piece. But what did you make of the Dragon's Den?

Well, I actually, and I think both of us before we, before we Got on the call with him, we assumed that he was working with Stephen Bartlett. So that was going to be a really exciting part, I guess, to kind of unfold. But it was really interesting to hear, like, some I haven't met, actually, somebody who's been on Dragon's Den and actually then come away with, like, this partnership. But it was also really interesting to hear what happens on, like, after Dragons Den is finished. So obviously, gearing yourself up for that, you have to have your story straight, don't you? So I wonder. And when I was listening to him, which I didn't ask him, actually, I wonder if, having this big goal of going to present at Dragons Den, you have to have your numbers right, you have to have everything, don't you, in the right position. So I'd imagine that was really great for him to be able to do that, but also to hear, you know, just a change in direction and how he had to try and negotiate after the kind of handshake in Dragons Den with Stephen Bartlett. And actually where he is now. And where he is now is working with macha for the 100 as well. So that comes around as a full story for us as well, doesn't it? Having spoken to Maka and I can really see how that relationship and what he's trying to do with the company, I can really see how that will just move forward as well. Having had our fantastic interview with Maka.

And his approach, I agree, I think. So if you think about it on Dragon's Den, clearly Stephen Bartlett is the person that you would assume would be a good fit for that because of businesses like Huel and Zoe and all of that kind of. Except actually, it's not the right. I don't think it would have been, I don't know, be interesting, but obviously it didn't end up happening. You know, they started renegotiating the terms after the. After the filming. So that. That, to me was fascinating. But I think, you know, these things happen for a reason, don't they? And, you know, with Macca's involvement with. With the. With super tri, you know, and you can see that how that is now influencing the way that they're going with the 100. And you can see. Well, actually, I suspect Macca is a way better investor than Stephen Bartlett would have been just from understanding the space.

And how do you get people to invest in it, like sponsors to invest in it? How do you give people really good prize purses? How do you make a series out of it? How would you make it work? Watchable like how are we going to view it and consume it? It's been really interesting actually, hasn't it, over the last kind of number of interviews where we've really got down to the nitty gritty of how people like MACCA are trying to make that really exciting to watch, exciting space to be in compete, need to do the whole series if you're going to win the serious prize money, get the sponsorship. So that's really interesting for me actually to see that develop.

I completely agree and I think if you think about, I mean I know we've talked about it before, but if you watch Unchained on Netflix. So I've gone for. I am never the person that is going to sit and watch the Tour de France from sort of, you know, mid morning to mid afternoon for God knows however long. I don't even know how long most of those stages last. I am now starting to watch the highlights, but actually I'm only really watching the highlights every day because I have watched Unchained and Unchained, told me the story of what was going on, explained the kind of, of the why behind everything and then it's made it really compelling to watch as and I think that's where you know, like whether it's the 100, whether it's Super Tri, whether it's T100, whatever it is, those that storytelling becomes so important, doesn't it? Because otherwise it's a, you know, a 24 hour race and nobody's gonna sit and watch. I mean, you know, as big a fan of Iron man as I am, it like even, even I would struggle to sit and watch Kona for eight hours on the time.

I struggle to be a spectator if I'm really honest. Honest.

So yeah, yeah, it's exactly so yeah. So I think that's, I think that's brilliant and I think, yeah, I'm sure full circle it that will, that will end up being a better suitor to and some awesome races, you know, in amazing parts of the world. So definitely more for the bucket list.

It definitely, it definitely got me excited about. And they're all, they're all like mountainous, aren't they in terms of.

Yeah.

So yeah, some, some proper hard ones. I think I maybe need to do a, do a few that. Not quite as hard to start off with but then who knows, just throw yourself in I guess.

Back to the arc of attrition, I would suggest back to some practical. Get you, get you ready for some, some, some like mini mountains just like they come thick and fast.

Yeah, yeah. Not as much jungle or anything like that, though.

No, no, no, no, no. Definitely. I'm not sure I like the idea of heat and. Yeah, that humidity. Doing, doing that in the summer in the heat. God, that would be hard. But if you want to find out more about the 100, then I would suggest go check out the whole 100 World Champ website or on Instagram and just, you know. Yeah, have a look at the races. Follow Jowl. I think he's, you know, he, he's more prominent on LinkedIn, I think, than on Instagram as an individual. But yeah, just go check it out. These, I think these are great races and I love what he's doing. So another amazing episode, another inspiring story, both business and running. And for everyone that's listening at home, home, keep on training.