Crawling Forward: The Iconic Ironman Journey Of Julie Moss

At that moment where I fell the first time, because there were four falls before I had to crawl, it was really about just figuring out how to keep moving forward. And I think everyone who's been involved in endurance sports of any kind has had that moment where all you can think about is how to keep moving forward.

What's it take to change the course of an entire sport and inspire millions in the process? Well, today's guest, Julie Moss, did exactly that when she crawled across the finish line in the Ironman World Championship in 1982. That moment, broadcast to millions, didn't just redefine endurance, it redefined what the human spirit looks like under pressure. In this episode, Julie opens up about the real reason she was in Kona that day and the life altering impact of that crawl and how she's used endurance as a tool to navigate divorce, aging, and reinvention. We talk longevity, mental grit, racing through pain, and why endurance sport continues to be a powerful force for personal transformation. So whether you're chasing your first finish line or navigating your own midlife reset, this episode offers raw stories, timeless lessons, and a reminder, sometimes crawling forward is still progress. So let's dive into this incredible episode with the legend of the world of triathlon, which is Julie Moss. Do you know what? When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor? And before we dive into today's episode, if you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees, and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and to make it even better, is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the business of endurance community. Let's dive in. So, Julie, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. Wow. I am looking forward to talking to you. What an icon from the sport that I know Claire and I love. And I really want to start with that moment, because that moment, the 6th of February, which, by the way, is also my birthday, I'm sure that's not awesome, but it was. It struck a Note with me. 6 February 1982, not only defined you as an Endurance athlete, but also was like an unbelievable moment in the. In the world of Ironman and sparked a global endurance movement, I think. So I want you to start by taking us to that moment, that moment that you were approaching the Kona finish line, your first Ironman, one of the first Ironmans. What were you thinking about as you were approaching the finish, but struggling to kind of get to that finish line?

Okay, Charlie, you're just going to cut right to the chase, aren't you? The thought that was in my mind was to win. And that wasn't something that was very novel to me. Let's just say it never existed before other than, you know, playing Monopoly or something as a kid. But winning was not a part of my Persona. It was not something that I was used to. I wasn't a competitive athlete of any kind. I participated in sport in school. But to find myself in the position of leading the Ironman and knowing ABC cameras are on me and all of that was just wildly unchartered territory. So to be leading the race and then to kind of have this concept of myself as someone who could even be leading a race, all of that was just. That was a big bag, mixed bag of emotions that I was dealing with. So the physical struggle really probably took me out of my head and just made me focus on just literally putting one foot in front of the other. And at that moment where I fell the first time, because there were four falls before I had to crawl, it was really about just figuring, figuring out how to keep moving, how to keep moving forward. And I think everyone who's been involved in endurance sports of any kind has had that moment where all you can think about is how to keep moving forward, fighting all the emotions that go with that, all the disappointments of now being on the ground when you should be running towards the finish line, all of that was coming down to this finite point of how do I keep moving forward? So it sounds kind of clinical, really, that. Because it was very emotional, but all I could do was figure out how to get up off the ground when I fell, how to keep moving forward. Once I got off of the ground, could I. Could I walk? And if I could walk, then I had to try and run. I had to try and win. So really forward motion with the drive of trying to win something for the first time, and it had to be a very big thing in my case was all I was thinking about.

And what. What do you think shifted in you during those last moments of Iron Man? What do you think changed in you Mentally.

Okay, well, we have to go back. It was about mile 18 when. When there was a real shift. It wasn't in those last moments that the shift happened. About mile 18, out on the marathon course, I was in the lead and I saw Kathleen McCartney coming towards me and she looked fantastic. She looked like what I imagined an Ironman triathlete should look like who was going to win the race. And we. We've talked about that together many times. I know you probably talked to her about that, but in that moment of seeing her, I knew what I was doing wasn't good enough. I had to find another gear to kind of keep maintaining what I was doing and even pushing forward. And the process of having to push now from mile 18 to, let's say, mile 22, my body was breaking down pretty fast. So now I'm not making it from aid station to aid station. I'm now having to stop and walk. And as my body was breaking down, feeling of the word of worthiness comes to mind. It was the feeling like I deserve to be in this position, even though it's new, it's foreign, I've never had it before, but I deserve it just as much as Kathleen McCartney back there, who's looking great and who's probably going to catch me. But I deserve it just as much. And I think to find that place of worthiness in you, it opens up a possibility that for me was translating to physically. I could physically keep overcoming the breakdown because my mind was telling me I deserve this. That does that. Does that click a little bit. The mind was now driving my body and that the emotion behind it wasn't just a thought. It was an emotion of I really could be good at something. I've never pushed myself to be good at something, but I actually could be if I just keep trying hard enough. So that was being honed in the really. The difficult miles of the marathon by mile 25, where we all. You both know you're at the top of plany and it's downhill and you think you've got this. That's where my body really didn't respond to that downhill running. But now I'm really feeling like a champion and I'm going to win this thing. So I get down Palani hill, I get almost to Ali', I drive, and that's when my legs just gave out. And that's where the scramble really started to happen. Of fighting this new desire, this new acceptance of myself as being someone who could win. To now having a body that isn't working and so it was just. It brought out the best of me. My body breaking down to the point where I'm on the ground and can't figure out how to make my legs move is now bringing out the best of me emotionally and spiritually. That fight, that fight for what? Your worthiness, that you are worth fighting for. That. That was everything. That's what that initial Ironman gave me. Did I go into it thinking that was after. Absolutely not. But the crawling, the getting up, trying to get to the finish line was really about completing the journey that started deep into the marathon of my discovering who. Who I was as a person. Yes, it was coming out as an athlete, but it's who am I as a person? And I'm somebody who is. I. I just get really tired of saying I. I. But that moment gave me the opportunity to discover something about myself. I don't think I would have found any other way.

Amazing. And it is such incredible footage. I watched it back again yesterday. I mean, having seen it several times in the past, and it's just. It's just unbelievable footage. What. What's it make you. How does it make you feel to watch that footage back now?

I'm kind of amazed, feel very vulnerable when I watch that because I was going through something that was incredibly personal. And in the later stages, it was. It was humiliating, but in a way now that I can look back and say, well, that's just part of sport. When it was happening to me, it was like incredible. Humiliation, vulnerability, pride, courage. I see the courage that I had. And so, yeah, it ran the gambits. But I'd say if I had to pick one word to. Just one word to describe what I feel when I see that footage is just pride. I was the girl who put the sport on the map. I was the girl who went through all of that to give people an idea that they could find something within themselves in an endurance event like the Iron Man.

Brilliant. And reading the Crawl of Fame, which, by the way, I love. As we were talking before we hit record, best cover of all time. Just. I love the feel of the COVID of the, of the, of the number on your chest. But it's interesting because you talk about how the humiliation part of it, and actually the TV channel offered to sort of COVID it up, didn't they, and sort of push over it and. And you said, no, no, no, we need to keep this more real. What was it at the time that made you kind of want to almost accept the humiliation part of, of some of that footage?

Because the outcome of the race was, you know, it just, it changed my life. I can't, I can't cover that up. I can't make it prettier than it was. It was gritty, it was messy, and it was transformative. So no, you can't rewrite history. That's how it happened. And I was really in this place of, I think, because it had just happened. I remember when the producers called me and they said, you know, this is what we think happened. And I could have said, oh yeah, that's what happened. But it's like, no, this is when something big happens. I think you have to own every aspect of it.

When I was doing some research around this, I didn't realize the reason you were racing that Kona race. My understanding is you were there doing. Or where it began was as part of your thesis project. So tell us a little bit about why that project took you to do the Ironman in Kona and how that race and that spark from, from racing actually evolved into, into something much bigger.

Okay, well, I was just, I was in college because that's just what you did. I didn't have a career path that I was focused on. I wasn't a very focused student, in fact, so I was, I had a physical education major. It was, it was a bachelor of science. So it actually pushed me to, to have. To be a better student than I wanted to be. And I saw the Iron man on television and I thought, that is a really cool event. Meaning good looking men stand around in speedos at the start of the swim and wow, that's kind of fun. And it never really occurred to me that, oh, you know, you're putting together these, these huge events and it's this amazing, you know, endurance event. I just saw it on TV and thought, wow, that looks cool. It's in Hawaii. So that's where the seed was planted initially. And I kept watching and I kept watching. And then there was something about the marathon, the late stages of the marathon and, and seeing the expressions on these athletes and thinking, ooh, that, that's pretty, that's pretty gritty. But it drew me in. You know, it's like with the train wreck, I was like, wow, I couldn't stop watch. So this seed was planted. And a couple weeks later, it's getting to the point where I need to declare, you know, what my project's going to be so I can graduate. I can graduate. And I just thought, oh yeah, I should do that Kona race, that Ironman. That looks, that sounds impressive. And I'll take it to my advisor. My mom will pay for a free trip for Hawaii. Won't this be great? So I'm, you know, I'm sitting with my advisor and he's asking me, you know, what's my background in swimming? No, I don't swim. I surf. What's your running background? Nothing. What's your biking background? I ride my bike, you know, to my job, you know, for school. And he just started laughing. He said, well, let's see how this turns out. He didn't discourage me. He didn't say that you're crazy. I kind of liked that about him, that he said, this is a crazy, wild dream. Just go after it. So I did what I normally do for all my school projects. I waited. I just procrastinated. I did other things. I had other classes. I had to go surfing. I had to work. And all of a sudden it's getting late and I have to turn in a progress on this training. And I didn't have anything. And we're talking that Ironman was February. And by November, I haven't really. I have to start faking training. So I'm faking these. These logs and. And then I kind of put in, okay, and a marathon. I better have done a marathon. And so I did sign up for a marathon, and I went and did it and it was terrible. The last six miles were terrible, but I hadn't run over eight miles.

So this is.

This is. This is Julie. In that stage of my life, we wing it. We just have a great attitude. We have fun. We show up for a marathon never having run over eight miles. And it was rough. By early January, I'm thinking I got to do another marathon and erase that awful experience. So I jumped in and did another marathon. The exact opposite of what you would do to properly prepare for an Ironman is how I train. So what. What did I have going for me going into this. This experience? A willingness to do crazy things. A willingness to just jump in and try and to just kind of anticipate that. I don't expect anything as far as how I finish other than that I have to finish. And that was. It was just to get a grade in this class. So that was me showing up in Hawaii two weeks prior to the Iron Man. I'd run two marathons too close together. And I showed up in Hawaii having never done the distance on the bike and never having swam the distance. So this is a cautionary tale. Of course, I'm going to end up crawling at some point in this race, when you think about my training, I.

Want to come onto the training actually. But you've answered a little bit of it there and I'm kind of seeing how that might have played out. Do you think at that moment in time there was something inside you that was, you know, looking for adventure or looking to challenge or push yourself at that time?

I think so, yeah. I mean, it started showing up in other ways through surfing and pushing myself out into surf that was way too big for my abilities. But yet this feeling of diving under a big wave and getting tumbled around and not hating it. And so the fact that the Ironman was an open water swim, that didn't bother me at all. That's a huge hurdle for a lot of first time triathletes is getting into open water. That didn't bother me. The idea that this sport was so new. When I got this whim to do it, there were no books, there were no coaches. I could find one article on the sport of triathlon to support my thesis. And so getting to Hawaii, I was suddenly surrounded with probably about 300 other people who actually were doing the sport. It was like mentorville. I landed and everybody wanted to help. What, you've never done the swim? Well, come swim with us. And it was just this friendly, low key sort of environment of nurturing and access to information. I was literally dropped into this energy center of triathletes that I had never met. There was not one other triathlete in, you know, in the entire student body of Cal Poly San Luis Obispo is where I graduated. So to be in Hawaii for two weeks and have this opportunity to immerse, immersion was, it was fun and it was somehow because I wasn't over trained, to say the least, I absorbed all that training really well and I was just training hours a day, every day. And when the race came up, I think as my race played out, I almost got it right. You know, we're, you know, getting stronger and easing into this, but just building and building and building and doing. The race was pretty good until that's the last six miles of that.

So what it sounds like is, is that your training, where you were really learning everything sounds like the last two weeks before you actually raced, is that really how it played out? I know you mentioned a couple of marathons. Like what did, what did it look like in those kind of months coming up to the race, was it really sort of hit or miss?

It was, it was kind of. I wasn't taking many swings. I was just I went for maybe one bike ride a week because I knew I had to. And I remember thinking it was so boring. And getting in a pool and trying to swim a mile was so boring. I think I needed the, the camaraderie to make it less boring because this is me getting on my, my bike that I used to commute around school and trying to go out and ride 60 miles was horrible. I mean, the nutrition didn't exist. It was, you know, I, I think I, I don't even know if I had a water bottle cage on my bike. I think I must have put one on, but that's the kind of thought. It was just so rough. However, I should say that those two marathons I ran weren't bad times for somebody who wasn't trained. I mean, I showed up at the Oakland Marathon in November thinking, I'm going to run 3:30. I don't know why, it just seems like a nice number. I think I just thought, okay, 3:30 it is. I blew up badly having never run over eight miles. And I ran 3:38, 3:39. A lot of people train a long time to come within 10 minutes of their goal time. This was on no training, so, so there was some natural endurance there. The second marathon I ran was six weeks later, eight weeks later, six weeks later. And I said, okay, 3:30. Here's the goal. I got to the half marathon mark at 1:42 and I thought I better stand around here and wait and drink water and just wait till that it hits 145 because I don't know what I'm doing. But I'm trying to pace myself better. So I end up blowing up at mile 23, having stood around for almost three minutes and around a 3:32. So there's some endurance in there that doesn't just come out unless there's something going on. So maybe that kind of gave me the confidence to know that when I put my mind to it, I can get 100 mile ride done. And sure enough, it was, you know, I got to go to Kona. And Kathleen and I really met at the time trial of the course two weeks before the race where there was a time trial maybe. Yeah, two weeks before. And I jumped into this time trial and we weren't that far apart. So now I became like this person to, to look at. But that was the first time I'd ever ridden the course.

There'll be people listening to this, thinking, well, you're just, you were just naturally good at endurance sport, weren't you? But Then typically when you, when you look, there's that 10,000 hours rule where, which, which gets overquoted, typically what happens is you go, well, Mozart, Mozart was a child genius. But actually when you look behind the scenes at what happened in the years leading up to become him, becoming the Mozart that we, that we know and love, he actually did do his 10,000 hours. It was just. People didn't see it. And I wonder, was that the case with you? Were you doing like the surfing? Were you doing lots of other things that gave you that engine, gave you that endurance and then you could, it just so happened that you could apply it to swim, bike and run, or were you just naturally like, is this a natural talent you were born with, Charlie?

Probably because there are some things happening there. Because I wasn't a pool swimmer, I didn't think of myself as a swimmer. However, I developed as a swimmer, might develop at a young age from surfing from 13, 14 on. And I did have a job as a lifeguard at a lake because I could do open water swimming and I had to ride my bike to the lake, which is about 30 miles each way to the lake, you know. So, yeah, there was some stuff happening.

So really what was happening is you were getting that fitness from other sources. And it just so happened that that actually translated well into, yeah, if you didn't.

If I did, and this was a summer job, so it wasn't year round, but if, if it was for work, I just, it was transportation. So, yeah, I wasn't. So the training aspect was not something that I think I did very well, but I did life pretty well as far as.

Yeah, okay, that makes sense. Looking back on that day in Kona. What would you do differently knowing what you know now? I mean, I know there was a moment with the Snickers bar that didn't go well for you. What would you do differently? And I suppose the second question, the sort of follow up question to that is, would you do it differently, knowing what then happened, how it all played out for you and the sport?

Well, okay, first, I know what I would do differently is that I would have the confidence to know an eight minute lead late in a marathon isn't gonna. No one's gonna catch you unless you completely fall apart and land on the ground. So I could have done a lot of walking, I could have done a lot of things just to get the win. And so, yeah, so I get the win. Then I would be like the woman I'd watched the year before who came across the line and no one ever heard from her again. It was needed. Women needed to have a presence in that sport. And this was. Was one of the moments that was going to propel not just the sport, but women in the sport. So the other part of the question is, would I have done it differently? I didn't. I didn't get, you know, you don't get that chance. You have to just play the hand that's dealt you. And in retrospect, I don't think women would. It would have taken women a lot longer to get to the forefront of the sport and to get the average person interested in the sport, it would have taken a lot longer. So the, you know, we're not the outcome of is is one thing, but you're asking, would I have done it differently? No, I don't think so. I didn't have it within any part of my being to know to do it differently. I just had to do it the way I'd done everything. Go big or go home.

Amazing. And I think I'm right in saying that, that Your win in 1989 was kind of the moment that you were most proud of as or like the win that you were proud of. Is that true? So tell us a little bit about how that win played out and why it meant, you know, why were you so proud of that one?

Well, I think in taking what I from Kona then, I was thrust into this professional role because the sport was developing different. Abc, NBC, CBS all wanted their version of the Ironman. And so races were being developed strictly for television. This provided careers and opportunities for the handful of athletes that were at the forefront of the sport. So I was riding that way. But by 1989, sport was well established. The women in the sport were really good. And I had started to put in those 10,000 hours, I mean, of really focusing on what it is to be a triathlete. And by 1980, seven years into the sport, I had finally hit that point where everything was sort of clicking. I was accepting myself as a. As a professional athlete. That means you show up every day, you do your best. I had the opportunity for about six weeks to hang out with the best athletes in the world. In down in New Zealand. I was with Scott Molina, Aaron Baker, Mark Allen, Colleen King, and these. These were really good athletes. And for me to have that opportunity to. To be immersed with in their training and doing the best I could, day after day, I showed up at the race on the Gold coast thinking not about how I'm going to finish, but how is this training Going to translate the first time I've really put together a serious. Come from a serious training block. How is this going to. How am I and this, this training going to show up at this race? And I was so present. I was so in the moment of, of this race that, that training just, it came out and it was, it was a really wonderful feeling. You talk about spiritual, emotional, physical, or spiritual. I'd say mental, physical, all coming together. That was that experience of that race. I allowed myself to be curious the entire race. What's in here? Yeah, okay. The miles are feeling good. This is what you and Aaron Baker were running, you know, close to this. Why can't you run in the entire, you know, 1830K? I think it was the race. Why can't you run that? And anyway, it was just. It was just a perfect combination of having done the training, showing up with a willingness to explore what the training was going to look like and not thinking about anybody else, just thinking about me and my race and what I was able to do.

I think there's a moment where you were racing alongside Paul and Eubie Fraser, weren't you? And just tell us about that moment and how that kind of defined the race for you.

Well, we, like I said, I done this training block with Aaron Baker, who at the time was Paula's biggest rival. Sort of putting myself in her sphere sort of gave me a new confidence that I was a better runner than everyone else had told me I was. And so Paula and I were on the run together and we were together till Almost, I think, 5 to 10k somewhere in there. And Paula, in my perception, she slowed down. I think we were nearing the next woman who we were going to catch and that would put us in first and second. And I think Paula thought she didn't have to think about me, like I'm not a good runner. So she could slip back off and gather herself for her win. And Paula's gonna laugh and say, that is not what I was thinking, Julie. But that's what it felt like. So it's what it feels like. And that was my perception. And I thought, come on, I've committed to this pace. I committed to this. I'm gonna stay with it. And that was exactly the. That's all it was, is I've committed to this, I'm going to stay with it. Paula, you can do what you need to do, but I'm committing to what we started running these first few miles at and continue to run that. But keep things simple, right? Those moments that look Big or they're supposed to be there. They can be little, small moments where you just say the right thing to yourself at the right time.

I was going to ask about that sort of like, internal dialogue that you were talking about there. Is that the first time that you really used, kind of like you talked about being curious, but this questioning of, like, you know, how am I feeling? You know, what. What is it that I need, like, all of those questions? Is that the first time that you really kind of started to be more curious and ask those questions and therefore be able to step up, so to speak, to.

Yeah, I think the basis of that curiosity came from confidence, confidence in the training. I've done, like, I've done this great block of training. How does that translate? That's the curious part. It was the confidence of having put in the work and now seeing how that is going to come out in the race. I hadn't done that kind of training. I mean, I'd been hit or miss, as you said earlier, hit or miss. It was a lot of miss. And so the consistency finally came together. After years of being around great athletes, I finally decided for myself, I want to know what kind of athlete am I? So that was the first question. That was the cur. That was the curiosity statement that happened months earlier. And then the willingness to put in the time to get this block done and then to say, okay, how does this translate for me? Not in comparison to anybody else, but how does this translate to me as an athlete? And so, yo, that was months earlier is when the big question was, what kind of athlete do you really want to be? And so then I was willing to put in a lot of time and effort to make that question, have clarity, have taken new shape and a new form.

And with that, you know, with that sort of change in mindset, and also around that time, I'm really interested and I know you've spoken a little bit when I've been listening to a few. A few other podcasts about you sort of that nutrition, what happens, like, towards the end in 1980, the availability of nutrition products, so to speak, it was, you know, very, very limited. I think it was right at the beginning of. Of, you know, what. What we have today. How did that. How did you change your nutrition? Like this change in mindset of, like, wanting to find out, you know, what kind of an athlete you could be. What happened over those years in terms of changes in nutrition for you, in terms of racing?

Well, same changes that happened for everybody. The products started to get developed. We had opportunities to train with those products. And, and that's, you know, it just became super matter of fact, now we have products, so now we train with them. You go for a long ride, you drink what you're going to be drinking in a race. It just became kind of a standard. So we helped create that standard of nutrition training, you know, taking in salt, all the things that we were experimenting with. Now we have products. Now we can test them in training and then in racing. And so yeah, nutritionally I don't remember ever having one issue in that race in 1989. It was just spot on. It was also wasn't a marathon. I think, you know, that was a really golden distance. It was very probably similar to the PTO's series that you kind of find your sweet spot on. What, what is the, the good distance for you? That was probably a perfect distance for me too.

Brilliant. So when we interviewed Kathleen, we, we talked about how she used Ironman and endurance sport to help her navigate a difficult time in life through her divorce. And likewise, I've, I've read and listened to you talk about how you did the same and in fact you actually sort of came together and supported each other on that, on that through those difficult times, didn't you? So how do you think endurance sport helped you navigate through the, the difficulty of a divorce? How do you think it helped you provide structure, healing or clarity? You know, what, what did it do for you in, in that time? And, and why did you come back to the sport around the time of your divorce?

I think divorce, any sort of big upheaval in your life. Certainly divorce ranks up there with pretty highly with those kind of events that first I think you kind of hit a rock bottom. You emotionally, when you hit a rock bottom, you need something to pull you back up. I think the community of triathlon sort of taking your mind off of whatever it is that you're going through at that moment. Training and being around a really supportive community can help you in that way. Ultimately, when I think about going back to Ironman, specifically that distance of endurance, it's to test me and test me in ways that I don't know the answer to. Just the way 1982, that first race, I didn't know what I was made of. Told me you're made of more than you think you are. And right now, let's say when I'm going through a divorce, I'm not feeling that. I'm not feeling that, that, that warrior spirit that I discovered so long ago. I know it's there, but I'm not feeling it. So I signed up for an ironman and I thought, I'll figure it out. And it's, I'll take my mind off what's going on with me right now. I will physically get stronger. I will be reminded of my better parts of myself. And ultimately with endurance sports, it strips off layers of you so you can get down to the good stuff. And whether you're feeling sorry for yourself or you're, you know, you truly have got things that you've got to get through, it helps take those layers off and opens up a space in yourself. That vulnerability, that perseverance, that drive, that fire is waiting. But sometimes you have to claw off the layers to get to it and put yourself in an Ironman race. And you will get there unless the race is going really well. If you're having a perfect race, it's, you're just cruising along, you may miss that piece. But I think you've had to get through a lot of layers to get to the point where you're, you're in a space where you can have a great race. Endurance athletics is the fastest way to getting underneath all the stuff that you need to get through.

Brilliant. And I remember Bob Babbitt, when he talks, tells that brilliant story of his first Ironman saying as he finished, as he crossed the finish line, albeit it was in a car park and there was like one person maybe stood there, he tells, he says, you know, I knew that the moment I crossed that finish line, I was a different person to the one that started that, that race. Do you think that's still the case? Does it still have that transformative effect even when it's your 5th, 8th, 10th, 20th Ironman, you know, does it still have that same tonic and is the process still powerful?

Yes, absolutely. I think it is. And it may be moments. It may not be a life transformative outcome, but there's going to be moments and it's those small moments as you get more experience with racing ironman distances. Those moments then are built into the fabric of who you are and how you're going to keep living your life. And I don't want to, you know, preach to the choir here, but I think you both have had experience. It is transformative moments and they, and they're building blocks of who you want to be, who, how you want to show up in your life. In other areas, as an athlete, as a, as a man, as a, as a husband, as a wife, mother, whatever it is, it gives you a little, a Little extra tool in your tool belt.

And I, and I also think it's linked to the goals that you set as well, isn't it? For me, Ironman had less of a shine when it was. When I started worrying about the time so much and more about the experience or the outcome. I think to me that was the goals. The races meant more when the goals were more important than just going faster than I went the time before. Which must be really difficult for you when you're right at the top of the sport.

Yeah, I think that can get. The ego comes along for the ride. When you're worrying about how you're going to place on the podium, what's your time going to be? You've taken now a race that you did before with, with certain weather conditions, and now saying the exact same is going to apply this new year. When there's different weather conditions, different, it's. It becomes very narcissistic, I think, to, to sort of think that you can just duplicate this, this event and, and that you're gonna. Because you've trained a certain way and your power watts are, are, are stronger, that you're gonna have this different outcome. I think if you allow yourself to, to look at this journey, this, this endurance journey as something like more, it's just more than that. And I get the energy when I get to Kona sometimes, especially when it's an all men's race as opposed to an all women's race, that overriding goal, energy is just projecting out. It's like, I want this time, I want this split, I want this place on the podium and you're in my way on the sidewalk. Could you get out of my way? Because I'm thinking about it. Not always, but there's just a buzz of that. So, yes, I think you're spot on when you say it's, it's. It's a little bit more. That's a quote from the Grinch. It's a little bit more.

But you've, you've raced, you know, for so many years and been really competitive right from your 20s and raced into your, into your 50s. But I know you had hip surgery along the way or the, the latter part. What is there, are there any particular strategies or like, training innovations or anything to do with mindset that has been really, really powerful in helping you to stay competitive through that, you know, through those, through those years.

Yeah, hip surgery was, it was just, you know, part of the, part of the deal. I mean, I didn't really understand how much wear and Tear on the body. I think we're just starting to understand that now. We, we were the guinea pigs of the sport. There's a lot of health issues for the men in this sport, who, at the top end, the pointy end, as you like to say of the sport, with heartbeat situations. We're starting to see some of that come out now. So I'm lucky that it was just a hip situation, a wearing out of the hip, which I did my last Ironman, sort of struggling with that in 2018, and then did the 70.3 Worlds in 2019, because my hip could only sustain half Ironman training, not full Ironman training. And then I got my hip replaced in 2020. And so it's been five years. And since then, I've kind of looked at this as a. As a. Just a fresh start, a reboot. What was, what was I missing as an athlete? I was missing strength training. So I have been a huge advocate for strength training. And then you're in the gym and you're listening to the people who know what they're doing with strength training, and they ask you, how many grams of protein do you have a day? And you have to think about it, and you think, well, I don't know, not that many. Then you start thinking about protein as being a big part of your. Of your diet. And then you're building muscle mass that you really did. Didn't see as an elite athlete. And then the goal for strength training was something new. Like what? Why. Why get strong again? And I want to try something new. So I'm. I'm a. I'm a skier now. I ski. I had my third season of skiing. I already bought my season pass for next year. I have never felt quad burning like I do in skiing. You could wall sit for, you know, five or six hours, and then you'd feel like it is at the end of a long day of skiing. It's just such a new fun sport for me. I'm not a daredevil by any stretch of the imagination. My rule with skiing is like the same with recycling. I'm willing to go as fast as I'm willing to hit the ground. So I will hit the ground at a certain speed on a bike and I'll hit the ground at a certain speed on skiing, and I just sort of stay within that range. But it has been exciting to see muscle development. So I did all this work in the gym. So I've been pretty much of an advocate for four years now. I had to. I got in the pool recently and I thought, well, I wonder if all this upper body that I'm doing, I might as well try and use it. I really haven't been swimming. I got in the pool and it was crazy. I could swim. Like I really hadn't missed a day. And yes, we can go back to those early days. Yes, I have established I can be good at things when I don't really train. But to know how long it takes me to get in swim shape and just to feel right away that something was clicking and that the endurance was there from muscles, not just from those hours and hours of swimming, but just the muscle mass was there to support getting in the pool was pretty fabulous. I. A little seed, a new seed has been planted that I competed in triathlons in my 20s. I competed in my 30s, 40s, 50s, and I did one race in my 60s. The 50th anniversary of Kona, as you know, is approaching 2028. I will turn 70. So that seed of being on the start line for the 50th anniversary feels like there's a lot of, lot of cool circles coming together for me. Just my legacy in the sport, the timing of turning 70. And the last piece is that I've never trained with a heart rate monitor. I mean, I've done some running with a heart rate monitor, but I've never done triathlon training with a heart rate monitor. Never worn a garment, never have never done an Ironman race with a computer on my bike. And I have never used power. So I feel like I think it'd be really fun to put a couple of years into getting ready for one. I never say never, but it feels like it could be a real good full circle moment triathlon, getting to use all the technology that I sort of wasn't, wasn't available or I wasn't in the mood for. So that's kind of something new and exciting that kind of came from this seed of getting stronger from the hip, going to the gym, taking up a new sport and then just sort of letting my body kind of indicate where, what, where could this lead?

Oh, that 50th anniversary. We've spoken about it before. So Kurt Madden, we had on fairly recently, he was, he was making a beeline for the 50th anniversary, was chatting to Kathleen when we were out in Kona last year because she's a big tri dot advocate. I use, I use tridot. And so, yeah, there could be quite a amazing array of athletes at the 50th edition, couldn't there? Maybe Maybe even Mark. So who knows?

Yeah, no, I just. Yeah, I know him too well. But that's interesting that you mentioned Tridot, because I was recently the announcer at Wildflower, which is a big revival kind of festival style race that has come back to life. And I had a chance to spend a lot of time talking with, with Kurt and with Mark and they were camping near me and Kurt was the one who kind of again, was the next layer of this idea of how to train for an Ironman. I'd like to go to the beginner's mind and say, I don't know what I'm doing. Kurt Natten, you can tell me what to do. And mainly he said that they don't do the big miles like we used to think we had to do. Talk about that. I'll drink that Kool Aid every day. I mean, what less miles. And you can do it on a stationary. A lot of work on a stationary bike and I think that could be really fun. Yeah, I think Tridot would be. Is kind of part of the, the scenario here. But the other hurdle I have to get through before I can take on this next big dream is I have to get the other hip done. And so, yeah, so that looks like it's going to happen early next year. Well, after ski season. Next year. Get through one more ski season. I just had a consult with the orthopedic and I said I'd like to get through one more, one more ski season and then let's get this done. And that gives me two years to rehab the hip and get ready for conus.

Well, that sounds like it sounds like an amazing plan.

No, doesn't it sound like I sort of am committing to this?

Sounds like it to me. Sounds like you built a whole plan around it. Sticking with the topic of Mark, we've had Mark on the podcast a long time. It was actually Mark who introduced me to Tridot a few years ago. And then it kind of. My, my journey through Tridot has been fantastic. But you must have, I mean, like, the stories that Mark tells and of his, his iron man days are, are incredible. But you must have some memories that really stand out as your perspective of what was going through. Is there one memory of, of Mark's iron man journey that really stands out for you?

Okay, well, I can tell this one because it's. This is before he ever did his first triathlon. I knew Mark as an acquaintance here in San Diego. He was a state lifeguard and I had friends who were state lifeguards. And this was before I actually became a state lifeguard. But Mark was famous for showing up for these lifeguard competitions and doing really well in the running and the swimming. Obviously he was a swimmer, but there was one particular event in San Diego called the Tugs Tavern. It was a run, swim, run. And Mark, I think, won it. And I just remember thinking, this guy is a diamond in the rock. Just. He is a diamond. He just doesn't even know how well he could be at triathlons. And after I did my first triathlon in 1982, I ran into Mark shortly thereafter and he was saying. Asking about the triathlon. And at the time, a good friend of ours, another state lifeguard, had done the same Ironman that I had done. And we were actually. We were dating at the time. And so he was intrigued not only that I could get through the Ironman, but that a fellow to a lifeguard could also have done really well on the Ironman. So I said, you're so great, great at comp. Lifeguard competitions. You're. You're going to be a natural at triathlons. And so it wasn't the. Really. The three of us started training, but he started training with Reed Gregerson who was another state lifeguard who'd done the Ironman. And they trained that whole summer. And then they showed up. We all showed up and stayed in a condo together for our first Ironman in October of 82. That was. I just remember though, meeting Mark and knowing Mark actually and thinking he has no idea. He's. He's gonna, he's. He's a natural at this. He's gonna be really good. And that was the. In 19 or excuse me, in October of 82 is the year Mark got out of the water with Dave Scott. They're riding to Havi together. They turn around and Dave is annoyed. Think Mark sort of said, hey, Dave and Dave, who are you? I'm Mark Allen. And Dave just went and we are done and threw it into a big gear, took off. And Mark thought, okay, I better throw it into a big gear and take off. And his derailleur broke and. But no, I remember just seeing Mark Allen as this. Just, just. He was a good lifeguard, a good swimmer, like 15 pounds more of upper body. And he just, he was gonna be good at the sport. The fact that I had done the Ironman, I'd seen the athletes over there, I kind of just. It was like immediate. It's like, you're gonna be pretty good.

But your. It was your moment that inspired him to take up, trust, take up the iron man, wasn't it?

It was. I think that and the fact that he knew people in the race, that also kind of makes it real for you, hey, wait a minute. And I think that's, that's that moment for Mark then translated for people who saw my moment, who thought, could I ever do something like that? So we all, we have our. Our time to inspire. And I think there was a piece of that that inspired Mark. And when we were together as a couple, you hear it now in, in tennis, in golf, the athletes refer to their teams. The golfers say we, you know, and tennis players thank their team. And I felt really, it was just such a privilege to be on Mark Allen's team. And I really saw myself as a vital member of that team. All the little things behind the scenes things that, you know, grocery shopping and making meals and doing, the little things that add up to giving you more time to rest, more time to focus, more time to train. That was really a privilege. And I think it took the pressure off me to sort of have to be that athlete all the time, which is why it probably took me seven years to get to the point where I was willing to focus on myself. Mark Allen was launched. I could now focus on myself and see what kind of athlete I could be motivated now by, by seeing excellence day in and day out. But to finally decide to do it for myself was a piece of that puzzle in 89. And so throughout Mark's career, it was really, yeah, it was special. It was special to. To watch him and then to see him, you know, not get his, you know, the, the fourth Grand Slam, you know, that was. That was Kona every year. And I so appreciated just, you know, just the, the stories in sport. Corey McElroy, who couldn't get the green jacket and by winning the Masters, he's won everything else, but he couldn't do that. And he talked about the pressure year after year after year of just not getting that race done. 11 years it took him to finally win the Masters. That was Mark Gallen. It took him seven years to finally win Kona. And that was, that was a team effort to get that across the line. I mean, obviously it was, it was all Mark on the day, but it was really an amazing journey to be part of that, that kind of excellence.

You must have so many other stories as well to share. That would be just amazing to listen to about that, about that journey. You know, you as a triathlete and racing professionally, triathlon has really been woven into your Your identity, I guess, since your 20s. Looking back, what do you think that endurance sport has given you that maybe sort of nothing else could. How does that still drive you today? So how does endurance sport still drive you today?

I think the message that. That resonates the strongest for me from 1982 and crawling across the finish line was that the mind will take you well beyond your body, where it wants to go. It's your mind. It's. It's a positive attitude. Not just on race day, but kind of think, think day in and day out. That ability to see, you know, the glass half full, that is so strong that the belief in yourself. I didn't have it in that first race until very late, and then it was taken away with the physical being taken away. So, yeah, I mean, you trust that your. Your mind is so much stronger than your body and that in concert with kind of that mental, that, that physical and that spiritual side, when that comes together, you have those races that are, you know, I hate to say, in the zone. I don't know why. I don't like that term. She was in the zone. He was in the zone. No, it's this. It's bigger than that. It was like you were. You're the. The major parts, those pillars of your training have come together in a way that can be sustained. It's not perfect. It doesn't always. It doesn't last. But that's the beauty of endurance, is that you hit those. Those. Those valleys, and you can get back to, you know, plateaus, peaks are, you know, few and far between. But if you can just keep riding out of those valleys and coming up and keep going, that's when everything is coming together. And it's. I guess I love the imperfection of endurance to kind of give you moments of perfection. And the mind will. Will be driving the bus every time.

Brilliant. Brilliant. Now, like I said, I'm. I'm currently reading the Crawl of Fame, which is also actually not just the best book cover, but it's a great name. I love. I love the Crawl of Fame as a title, so really enjoying it. Would absolutely recommend that the other people read that and. But we'll ask every guest on the podcast what books have inspired them on their journey or what books do they find themselves recommending to other people regularly. Are there any standout books that have really helped you on your journey?

Well, a couple, so I can't limit it to one.

You can have as many as you like.

Okay. Barbarian Days, A Surfing Life, and that's by William Finnegan. And he won the Pulitzer Prize for autobiography on that. And it's because I'm a surfer. He started surfing in the early days of surfing. So he takes you on this classic old school adventure and then it's mixed with the mastering of an art form or a sport which I can resonate with because it, it took me a long time to master triathlon, even though I loved it from the start.

I'm loving the sound of that. And by the way, so I, it's taking me a very long term to master the art of surfing. So that sounds like Endless summer book version. So I'm going to check that one out.

Okay. So Wild by Cheryl Strayed. She hiked the Pacific Crest Trail on no training. She showed up not even having ever packed her backpack. And literally she's in the motel packing a backpack for the first time to go out and do the Pacific Crest Trail, which for, for your listeners, it is a trail that extends from Canada to Mexico. It's 2,600 miles. And you will read in my book Crawl of Fame, where I document Matt Allen, my son, he did the Pacific Crest Trail hike and he completed that in 2016. And that's when I looked at him and said, you learned something about grit, my boy. It's time you thought about Iron man again. And so he then competed in Ironman and qualified for Kona. But that was based on the grit that he got from hiking for four months on the Pacific Crest Trail. And the last one is a cautionary tale, but it's by the gentleman who wrote the forward to my book. His name is Armin Kitayan. And Armin and Jeff Benedict wrote the Tiger Woods. It's Tiger Woods. And talk about getting into the head of somebody who was the absolute best in his sport and getting into his head and getting to see all the dark, you know, kind of the things that on the outside it looked like perfect. Golf, golf perfection. But inside, the way he was raised and the pressures and the parental stuff, it's just really great sports reading.

Brilliant. Those are three fantastic recommendations. Thank you. And none of them were on my reading list currently, but they'll all be going onto the reading list. The Tiger woods one in particular, I think. So I've just recently they recently released a documentary, like a three series, not docu series, I think on possibly Netflix, about Tiger. And that is brilliant. It's, it's fascinating and like, by the sounds of things like that book goes into the sort of dark places that he, he has been to. So, yeah, brilliant. I'M gonna. I'm gonna check those out. And then we have a closing tradition on the podcast where we get the last guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that guest is going to be. And the last guest was Chris Brindley. And I'm. I think Claire has got Chris's question lined up.

Okay, so what is the major lesson that you've learned from your first day to today?

Major lesson that I have learned is say yes more than you say no to everything.

Why is that the major lesson?

Because I think we stop ourselves. Analyze. Well, what can you do an Ironman? Oh, well, I'm not a very good swimmer. And so you. You go through it and instead of just jumping in saying yes, I. Okay, I'll. What does it take? I think in. In just. In big ways and little ways. If your motto is to say yes more than you say no, I think life is going to take you on some pretty interesting journeys.

Amazing. Brilliant. And I have one final question that I'm sitting here thinking I've got to ask you with. With Kona, with. With the Ironman World Championships, the girls and the boys splitting out, racing Nice and Kona separately, it feels like you are the person that we should ask to say, is it now a better thing that they've brought them back together? Yes. The women don't get their own day, but we have the guys and the girls racing on the same day. What are your thoughts on where Kona has been with Nice alongside and now how. With the announcements of them combining it back together again?

Unquestionably the best thing for the sport to bring everybody back to Kona.

Brilliant. I agree. I think Claire raced the year that they had both in Kona, but on separate days, and that was good. But challenging for Kona. I think so, yeah. I think that's brilliant. Julie, it's been absolutely fantastic chatting to you. Loved hearing the stories and the emotions behind that footage that we all know so well. If there is any listener here that is. That hasn't watched this footage or hasn't considered reading A Crawl of Fame, then you should definitely do both. But, Julie, it's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you for everything you've done for the sport and for taking the time today to tell us about it and tell us about that journey, because it's been absolutely brilliant. Thank you.

Thank you. It's been really fun.

So what did you make of that interview with the legend that is Julie Moss?

I was about to say another legend. Another, like, starting out in Iron man, you know, Julie is one of the names that you think of that you go to, and to be able to, you know, speak to her and listen to the stories are just. Yeah, it's just amazing. One of the things and she said this early on, actually one of the things she said really early on is that, you know, she wasn't used to winning. She wasn't there to win, and then she suddenly realizes that, oh, my God, I could actually do this. And that was the point that actually changed her whole mindset. And interesting. What did you think? Because she, She's. She talked about, like, my God, I am actually worthy of taking this place, being, you know, winning. That was really interesting to me that, that she talked about being worthy. What were your thoughts about that?

I agree. I thought it was really interesting. And I also thought it's kind of almost. It's like, it's brilliant that she had that thought. But it's also possibly the moment that it cost her the Iron man, because I think when you read the book, she decides. She's worried that Kathleen's catching her and she decides to pick the pace up. And as a result, like she said, she could have pretty much run, walked that last six miles or eight miles as it was, and not given up the lead that she had. But equally, it was. It was that mindset that changed, drove her to push that hard, which then had her body fail her and created what is probably the most iconic moment in endurance sport. I suspect.

I think, I think the. The to listen to a story around the drive to win, but actually, was it mile. Was. She said mile 18?

Was it mile 18?

Mile 18? I mean, if you speak to a triathlete now, they're not. They're not, you know, suddenly thinking about the drive to win at mile 18, you know, and, you know, I'm just going to do it for my projects. My thesis, it's just, you know, my thesis just like, let me go and, you know, have a go. I really love her mindset of, you know, just. And she's, you know, she said actually at the end, just say yes to stuff. And it sounds like that's what she's done throughout her career is actually just, you know, going out there and getting it and, you know, just. Just trying it. So it was just fantastic to hear kind of, you know, how that world of Iron man was those, you know, right in the early days and we.

Didn'T get the story, but she. She had. I think kind of one of the defining moments was she had a Snickers bar, which was going to be her nutrition, and it had melted and it sort of. Sort of like, was all over her face. And she decided, and she'd got the camera crew riding alongside, and she was like, this is not a good look. So she didn't have the Snickers. But, I mean, like, you think about how much, you know, the athletes today are getting through a Snickers bar an hour in terms of calories, if not.

Well, double, way more.

I don't know how I'm saying that, not knowing how many calories are in a Snickers bar, but guessing it's quite.

Well, they've got. They've got smaller, haven't they? So, you know.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yet she's looking at that as her nutrition for the whole bike lane. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's insane, isn't it?

Yeah.

And those marathon times with zero training, zero prep, zero strategy, again, just like, incredible. I mean, it's just. Yeah, it's. It's an amazing, amazing story. I thought it was brilliant how she talked about how kind of just, you know, that drive to get there and. But, yeah, it's just. Yeah, just a brilliant story and incredible. And what else did you take from the interview other than. Other than kind of how amazing that start was, actually?

I mean, you know, she talked about the power of her mind, you know, a lot. And I know that's what a theme, isn't it, that comes across in most endurance triathletes or endurance athletes? You know, this. This kind of willingness to push beyond what. What they think is possible. I mean, certainly on, like, two weeks of training. I mean, I think that's pretty, you know, pretty good to kind of push beyond what's possible. But I. When she talked about, you know, racing and, you know, racing into her 50s and actually finding other sports along the way when she had a hip operation, actually embracing other things. And I'm, you know, I've heard her speak on a couple of other podcasts about, you know, actually that it's really good to. And she didn't mention this, actually, but it's really good to find other things that interest you. And then when you come back to the sport you love and she's talking about now, you know, isn't she coming back in her 70s to raise at the anniversary? I just think that is amazing. And that is, you know, all credit to this mindset of like, well, I can do it. I will do it. You know, saying. Saying yes. So I think there is something to the power of. During Injury or coming back from a rehab period, finding something else that you also get that kick out of or love or enjoy, I think that's really important.

And I also think that ties in with her coming back to Iron man to help her deal with her divorce, you know, and even though. Even though she'd done many Iron Mans beforehand, it was still a part of her recovery process that had her dealing with that divorce better, I think. I think that's interesting. So. So it's kind of where I ended up coming to the conclusion of this year, you know, having done Kona last year, you know, and qualifying for Kona and kind of ticking off that big, big goal. It's like, well, you know, what. What next? Is it just another Ironman? And if I'm not that bothered about qualifying for Kona or nice this year, what's. What is the goal? Why am I doing? And I couldn't get motivated. So I ended up stepping away from Ironman and came up with this ridiculous. My longest triathlon principle. So the longest perceivable swim, bike and run that I could find. So obviously cycling lands end to John o' Goach was the longest ride I could think up, which I've done, and it was amazing.

Why did you not do it twice there and back?

You know, in theory, yes. Like, there's a lady that's just done it, whose name is currently Sarah Ruggins, has just done it there and back in. In less than six days, which is unbelievable. But anyway, yes, in theory. So now I could think about that, but at the time it was like. And then I'm swimming Lake Windermere, 11 miles, and then the Arc of Attrition, the 100 mile around the Cornish coastline, it's much more exciting. And I've got different reasons to do it and it's challenging me in different ways. And just doing another Ironman, I have no doubt that I'll want to go back to racing another Ironman next year. But it's about finding those reasons and the goals, why you're doing it, as opposed to just doing it to try and get a better time, which was becoming less and less motivating for me. But I think, I think just fascinated me that even after all those races, going back to using Ironman to help her through a divorce was incredibly powerful. So, yeah, an amazing interview with an amazing lady that created an incredible moment in the sport that we love. And like I said, for listeners out there, if you've never watched that footage, or even if you have, but not for a long time. It's worth going back and watching. It's just incredible footage of somebody at their absolute lowest trying to make it to finish the race. So another amazing interview, and for everyone that's listening at home, keep on training.