Cycling Beyond Limits: How Energy Management Fuels World-Class Performance with Richard Oakes

You don't do it for the moment of podium and stripey jersey and whatever because as I walk down off the podium and you realize that the process of preparing and with your team and discipline and the consistency and the curiosity to see can I get better? Is what drives you.

What does it take to be the fastest in the world not just once, but time and time again? What can business leaders learn from world record breaking athletes? Well, today we sit down with Richard Oakes, a four time world champion, national record holder and co founder of Team Oten Avias, the world's fastest masters cycling team. But Richard isn't just dominating the track, he's also reshaping how high performance thinking applies in the business world, coaching elite firms to work smarter, perform under pressure and embrace marginal gains for success. In this episode episode we uncover the secrets of elite endurance. From pushing past plateaus to balancing ambition with longevity. Richard shares how data, resilience and the mindset of a champion can transform not just your performance, but your career and your health. If you want world class strategies to go faster, think sharper and achieve more, this is the episode you can't afford to miss. So let's dive into the conversation with Richard Oakes. Do you know what? When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees, and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you. When you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of Endurance community. Let's dive in. So Richard, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I know we've chatted a bit before, so I'm really looking forward to kind of hearing more of the stories that I haven't heard before and kind of digging into the detail of what's got you to where you are both in on the track or on the bike and in the world of business. But I'd really love to start by dialing it right back to where did cycling start for you? What was your younger Years, look. How did that look like in cycling? How did you get into cycling? What was your early cycling career like?

Me on both. It's a privilege to be here and the business of endurance resonates with me massively. So I'm in the right place. So cycling goes back a long, long way for me. So my first, first memories of cycling, I'm eight years old, right, so it goes way back. And I remember following my dad's wheel, you know, it was a sunny afternoon, riding out towards grantham on the A1, there to watch a professional bike race go past the great. The, the London to York bike race that used to race up the A1, right? That's how long ago it was. So this is like nearly 50 years ago. And I just remember the feeling I had this little 24 inch wheel racing bike, you know, that cost 8 pounds. And I just remember the freedom and feeling like this, just like I had wings. You know, I'm a working class lad from a working class part of Nottingham. You know, this was freedom, right? It was brilliant. It was like, wow. You know, I remember the green fields and the corn swaying in the wind and the blue sky and the, and following my dad's wheel and just the whole experience was just completely transformational. And you can tell when I talk about it, I never forget it.

And so where did that kind of first buzz lead you as a, as a, as a junior cyclist?

About nine, I entered my first race. So then you could race like when you were really little, right? Until I remember it was a closed circuit race. Aston Hall Mental Hospital. It was round the grounds of that place. And I remember racing and winning my first race and it was like, wow, this is amazing. You know, my under 10 race and then, and you know, my brother's a really good cyclist. My dad has always been into cycling. So, you know, clearly I had a, like a physiological bent towards being a good cyclist. You know, I've got a big aerobic engine, obviously to drive up. And then cycling just took me, you know, to being a sort of national record holder and riding for the England sort of schoolboy team and riding against Chris Boardman and riders like that, you know, back in the day, being on schoolboy teams with those sorts of riders. But I think I lacked at that point maybe just a hand on the shoulder or some guidance. You know, you don't listen to your dad d when you're 15, like, who listens to the dad 15, you know, and I wish I had a dog now, but, but he said, let me find My own way. And unfortunately then it was like I didn't really see cycling as a career. You know, I was, I was good talent, natural talent, but you need so much more than that. Natural talent isn't, you know, it's not going to do it. And I remember talking to Chris Boardman who said, like, this is the only thing I can do, you know, so I'm just going to ride my bike and see what it takes me. But for me there was no money in sighting then, so I had to go and sort of break out and build a career and make some money and cycling was not going to be, I don't think for me the way I was going to do it. So like I was good, but I think I lacked the mental structure and the vision and the kind of direction to be totally single minded about doing that. So that's where I think I've always kept cycling. But my competitive cycling finished really at what I would call like an elite level when I was like 16, 17.

And is there a pinnacle of that time that you think that was the moment for my early cycling career that I look back to and think that was, that was the best bit, to be honest.

I was, I loved the whole experience. So there wasn't. It was like the whole experience of the freedom of cycling, the discipline it taught me, when I look back on it, I don't remember one thing. I remember cycling as a framework for getting the best out of myself. You know, understanding what you put is what you get out. So like it didn't. It's not something that stands out, it's more the whole thing cycling represented. I mean, I do remember winning like a Midlands road race championships and it was a rotten, freezing cold day and it was the hardest race I think I'd ever done and to win that was very satisfying. But when I look back, I don't remember so much the victories. I remember what cycling represented and how it set me up for the rest of my life, really.

I think it's fantastic that it was cycling with your dad that kind of initiated this, this thing. I was at the track meeting some of your team a few weeks ago and. And your dad was there. Now I know you weren't there because you'd got the Lurgie at the time, hadn' but he's still there at the. I don't know how old your dad is, but I fell in love with him immediately because he was wearing a forest hat.

But.

But he's still cycling, isn't he?

Yeah, I mean he's 80 years old. He still races, still races. Now he's part of the team. He's got some goals this year to try and sort of call it, you know, qualify for the World Masters Championships in the over 80 category. And he's setting new goals for himself and, you know, and he still trains probably every day now. You know, it's an inspirational. He's a very humble guy, like, he's a very humble guy, but he inspires me with just his consistency and his positivity around what cycling brings for him. I can just see if I'm as fit and healthy as him at 80. I'll be pretty happy.

It's amazing. So I know when we first met, it was at a drinks party and you were telling me because you, you'd kind of. You were still hobbling at the time, or you're telling me about this, our record, this, this world record for distance cycled in and for your. For your age group. Yeah. What prep went into that? What kind of inspired you to go after that record and how did it play out?

Not enough prep, as it turned out. But what inspired me to do it? I think I had ticked off all the boxes, really. I'd done everything in cycling that I wanted to achieve. So, like, the three main goals for me were world time trial champion, world individual pursuit champion, World team pursuit champion. They were the big goals. And to set world records in those disciplines as far as you can, which is what this thing with Dan Bigham, this Project 50 was all about, which maybe we'll talk, talk about that bit later. And so Dan Bigham and Filippo Ganna, for those who follow cycling, one after the other, broke the world hour record for men's elite. World hour record. And you'll see on my thing, watchop, you know, so we're, watchop are a technical partner and sponsor of my cycling team. And Dan spoke to me and said, look, we're going to put this OWL Record week together where we're going to take athletes from different amateurs and female and different age groups and we're going to hire the tracking in Grenchi in Switzerland, which, without going to L to T is probably one of the fastest tracks in the world. And how do you fancy having a crack at the OWL record? You know, you've got everything you need, you're a brilliant time trialist, you're super aerodynamic, you've got fantastic track craft. Why don't you come along and have a go, be part of that thing? So it came about from those two things, really. One, anyone who knows anything about cycling will tell you it's the hardest record to break. Mentally, physically, physiologically, it's brutal. And I knew that, but I made the decision to get. Not all people know this, but I made the decision to have a go at the hour record very late. Literally, it was two weeks before. And because of other things, you know, I'm a CEO of a business and I've got other responsibilities. I don't just ride my bike all the time. I'm not like a professional athlete in that respect. And so I made the decision quite late. And one of the things that that meant is I didn't have time to do the heat adaptation work. And also I didn't have time to ride on the velodrome with the UCI sandbag. Like the foam blocks they put at the bottom of the track to stop you going too low, because obviously, it's about the number of laps. They recall the number of laps and add them up and how far you've gone in the hour, multiply by meters, and to stop you riding below the official black line, they put these big pads on the track. It's the only event in the world they put those pads on the track. Now, there's a real significance to them, and I'll explain that later. But anyway, so that I was in great physical shape. I was absolutely flying. In fact, I'd been to Glasgow and destroyed the opposition in the World Time Trial Championships. I was in great form, but I didn't do the heat adaptation work and I didn't do the prep with the big foam blocks on the track at the bottom of the track. And those two things were my undoing.

Unfortunately, why you explain this record as the hardest record to break. Explain to us why that is. I mean, I can imagine why it is, but why is that so hard?

I think because these three things that combine to make it physiologically and mentally very difficult. So the first one is to set the velodrome up to be quick. It's got to be hot, hotter than you normally race in, and overheating is a massive issue. And he has a huge impact on the ability to produce power. And obviously, as you build up the heat. So therefore, the perceived effort, or the actual effort, and the perceived effort ramps up really quickly as you get hot. And so it's very, very difficult physiologically to prepare the body for that. It's just really hard. And there's no other event where you have that. Not, not. Not in the normal. In the normal world, you know, maybe if you're riding The Tour de France on hot days or something like that. But anyway, so that's the first thing. The second thing is you have to stay static in a single position, not move at all. Right. For 60 Minutes. But you imagine just sitting in a chair for 60 minutes without moving at all your position. Then you've got to produce, you know, 320 watts or whatever it is, you know, unride the track bike around the velodrome, you know, sticking to the black line. So the fact it's a single position, you get pain in parts of your body you didn't even know you had parts of the body, you know, so it's just brutal. And then the second thing is, is mentally it's, it's just crushingly like boring at one level. You just have to. And of course all the self talk and the pain you feel and everything mentally, and there's no one to race against at all. You just literally it's just a mental like sledgehammer just hitting you every lap, you know, and, and to break the record, certainly the distance I wanted to do, I had to ride right on the edge of my physiological capabilities to, to do the distance I wanted to do. And so, you know, you've got to manage it perfectly because if you go over in the first 20 minutes, you just die a thousand deaths. And if you go under, you can't pick it up in the second half. So to the judgment, it's like a very finely balanced sort of equation. Like if, you know, if you overstep it or you overheat or whatever, or you don't hold the position and then when things go wrong, they snowball incredibly quickly. So. Yeah, I hope that just gives a bit of insight to why it's so blooming hard.

Yeah, you've painted a picture of maybe not so much fun, but a lot of consistency. Yeah, no, it sounds like. And also I think, you know, we've spoken to so many different people that are slightly older in their sport and actually this learning, this consistency and this endurance. So we'll, we'll dive into that a little bit more. So what happened? You talked about the sand, the sandbags and things. What, what happened in that race?

Yeah, so, so we had a target and I think all the numbers said I could beat Jens Voich record, which is 51.1 km or something like that. So that was the target, so I could produce the power. I had the cda, which is your aerodynamic drag where it needed to be. I'd got a track craft in practice on the Derby Velodrome just sort of rocked up one night with a member of my team who does a lot of the tech stuff with us. I did 49.6 kilometers, 49.5 kilometers, which is, which is about 30 miles. And if anybody, you know, stick your head out the window when your car's doing 30 miles an hour, you know, you'll see how quick that is. Like it's rapid. And so we were quite confident, yeah, we could do that. The track's going to be faster, you know, I'll be in a better shape, I'll be tapered and all this sort of stuff. But in the back of my mind I knew I'd not done the heat adaptation. But what I didn't factor in was the fact that we hadn't done the track practice with the samba or samba, you know, the foam blocks down on the track. Anyway, so we go off to Grenchen, we do a few runs, everything's good. You know, I was going to ride at something like just sub 18 second laps for the first half and then come down into 17 somethings for the second half, which would give me 51.2 kilometers. And we were pretty confident when I started and I tried to settle into my aerodynamic position, which is crucial by the way. Right. If Your head is 2 inches higher than it is supposed to be, you know, suddenly your CDA goes from 0.158 to 0.179 and you've got to find 20 or 30 watts more. There's problem number one. Right, so I set off. The sandbags are freaking me out because I'm worried about hitting them. And so I can't relax, I can't. I'm not riding as low on the track as I should be on the black line. And I'm tense because I'm concerned about clipping a sandbag and crashing and therefore say my head comes up. And after about 10 minutes, I know this is the thing about self talk. I know what's going on in my head and I know from. I'm so in tune with how 320 watts feels compared to 295 watts, which is probably what we needed to do if everything was working well. I just knew I was overcooked. I knew I was having to overdo it, right? So picture this. Eight minutes into a 60 minute record. I knew I was having to overdo it. And then of course, knowing this record like I do, I know exactly what's coming, which is. But 30 minutes, you're going to be cooked. So psychologically that's quite a hole to be in. But I stuck with it because I'm a very determined character, incredibly determined. So much so that I literally rode myself into the ground. Literally. And so at halfway, I was just ahead of the record, which I think stood at 49.45 km or something. Now, that was done at altitude, which. So you're not comparing apples with apples. But anyway, as I. As I got to sort of 30 minutes, I had this really interesting conversation with myself. And I can tell you it's actually what it went like. I can remember it like it was yesterday. This conversation went like this, right, Richard, this has not gone well. You're having to do 20 or 30 watts more. You've overheated because you're not supposed to overheat, really, until 10 minutes to go, then you hang on. But because you've had to go harder than you thought, you've overheated, so you overheated. You can't keep going at this pace. You're only just on world record pace now, so you're not going to do it. So what are you going to do? Should we just pack it in? Sit till it's not my day today? I remember that conversation physically, then had another conversation which said, hang on. Think of all the people who've invested in you. My wife, my son, my family, my parents, the sponsors, Dan, my coach, all these people here, you know, all my friends. I had to go. Some friends who'd come to watch me on the track, like, all these people who've supported me, like, you're probably never going to get a chance to come back and do this again. So it's time to go to a place you probably have never been. Physiologically, what are you going to do? And that conversation took about two laps of the track. So that's probably what, just over 30 seconds, maybe 37, 38 secs, 36, 37 seconds. So I then made a decision to just go for it and just see what happened. And when I look back in retrospect, I had to ride at 30 miles an hour for 30 minutes when I was completely spent, like, I had nothing left in the tank. At halfway, I was in a very bad place. And so I then, then proceeded to endure the worst 29 and a half minutes of my life. Physically, mentally, it was horrendous. And I'd never been in a world of pain like it. And then with after 4:59:44, I think those dreaded foam blocks came to bite me because I was. I just literally rode Myself, I was so exhausted as I came out of turn three, I clipped one of the things and crashed. So I crashed at 30 miles an hour. I was on the track, I was kind of a little bit up the banking because I came out. So the bloke who operated on me afterwards said, what happened to you is equivalent of being in Lycra, standing on the top of a car at 30 miles an hour, then you're throwing yourself onto the pavement. So that's why. But not only that, but all the physiological stress that I'd gone through in the hour record left me in a bad way anyway until I hit the ground really hard because I was in this position, like this, you know, the aerodynamic position. I didn't have time to brace my forward or anything, so my left shoulder took the impact on the ground and smashed it to pieces. And the good news was as I crashed, I'd just gone through the record distance. The bad news was in order to claim the record, you have to get back on your bike and do another lap. And so I had to get back on and do another lap. And so until I did another lap and then just collapsed into a heap on the floor and then the rest was, was. I don't remember too much, but I did break a record. And, and your shoulder and, and, and blocks of bones and stuff and whatever. But anyway, that's as brief as I can tell that story, really.

I think it sounds hideous. Like there's a reason why we all opt for the 20 minute version of the FTP test when it comes. When that comes around because. And that's hideous.

Yeah.

So it's like an hour FTP test in that it's just awful, but absolutely incredible. So I think you've explained it and it's all in all the detail that, that we can ask you to. It just sounds like. I suppose the question that comes to mind is when you really had to dig deep.

Yeah.

What did you do mentally to get you through that, that last kind of probably, I would guess actually it's the last 10 minutes. I mean, I know you said it was the last half an hour, but the last 10 minutes, when it's, you know, what did you do mentally to get through that?

I think there were two things happening, actually. I think I was no longer doing it for me. I think I was doing it to represent all the people in my life who have helped me, supported me, been there for me. And therefore I was driven by another energy which wasn't mine. And I, I definitely felt that it was definitely something going on there.

So it's the power of why, isn't it? As opposed to. Which we talk about quite a bit on the podcast, actually. But yeah, it's the what when you know your why.

Yeah. And. And it's why several levels. Like goes you going down into these levels of, you know, and why did I get back into cycling and what happened to my wife? And what was going on there? Like, you know, that that's that end of the energy that came from that. Which maybe we'll talk about if we get a chance. You know, so much of it was. Was from the other people around that had helped me and that I was sort of channeling that energy, if you like, was one. And the second thing is, is that I know because I. It's part of my DNA, that doing really hard things is part of growing as a human being and. And finding things that hard doesn't happen to you very often. Right. So it's almost like a g. It's like a. Sounds weird. Like it's a gift.

Like.

Like not a gift, but it's. It was an opportunity to just see. Right, Richard, well, it's time to take your own medicine here, fella. Because you're adv. You always advise people, do hard things. You know, do the bleep, bleep. That sucks. You know, that's where the edge is. The edge is in doing the really hard things. Well, this is going to be the hardest thing you've ever done, so now's the time to step up and take your own medicine. So I think there were two things happening. One, there's this energy that was fed from another source, which wasn't me, definitely wasn't me. I was carried along by other people's energy, definitely. And then there was that. That do hard things mantra, which, you know. You know, my business is sort of also into the neuroscience of all of this and the anterior mid singular cortex thing, you know, that when you do really hard things, it develops that part of the brain and that part of the brain is incredibly important for mental health and longevity and, you know, fighting off dementia and all those other things, you know, so that all this stuff is. I wouldn't say I was cogent enough to think it through in that level, but all my work and all the stuff I've done in my business and in sport sort of led me to that reflection. Now's the time to take your own medicine.

Brilliant. Brilliant. I know that you've. You're seven times world champion at different. In different forms of racing. We haven't got time to talk about all seven, but which one of those stands out for you most and why?

I mean, the first one I'd successfully won was, it was a team event, so that's a bit different. But if you look at the first one I individual world championship I won, where I also set a new world record, a C level world record. In fact, it was a. Yeah, in fact, it was an, it was an all altitude and sea level world record was in Los Angeles. And that the first time, you know, you, you, you know, you succeed. And it was a, it was a weird one because it was after Covid. So it was the first time sort of a world championship was run after all the shenanigans that happened with COVID But, you know, the Australian national champion was there, the New Zealand, all the big nations, the US World record holder, and then he was their US champion, you know, so everybody was there. And you know, when you pull on the stripey jersey and get the medal for the first time, that's special, you know, because there's never a, you know, there's never a second time to be the first time, if you know what I mean. So I suppose that's the one that stands out. But I had a very weird experience if I've got a minute to maybe share that when I actually won. You know, you go on the podium and the trumpets go and the national anthem gets played and you put the jersey on and you put the medal around your neck and about 15 seconds later, everyone walks away and that's it. And you sort of, you know, it hit me then that, why do I do this? You don't do it for that reason moment. You know, you don't do it for the moment of podium and stripy jersey and whatever, because as I walked down off the podium, the overriding thought was, oh, I can't wait to get working on next year's, you know, and you realize that the process of preparing and with your team and the discipline and the consistency and the curiosity to see can I get better? Is what drives you. Not so much the jersey or the medal because it's so fleeting. Like it literally. It really shocked me because, like when you're in a team, you talk to your teammates afterwards, it's, oh, it's all good. You get a bit more of a buzz when you're on your own. You're up there. Then baseball, that's it. Everyone's walked off. So it was a really, it was a fantastic experience. But I realized the Real value and joy was in all the work went into it, not the actual moment. Does that make. Make sense?

Complete sense. I think, again, we've probably experienced not. Not to the World Championship level, but, you know, experience those times where you're on the podium and then. I absolutely understand what you mean. It's kind of gone. It's finished, isn't it? It's on to the next thing. So, yeah, completely understand and really interesting that you were able to reflect on that and think, actually, this is about the process, and I'm looking forward to the next process. Which leads me into a question, actually. How have you managed to compete as an athlete at such a high level and work full time as a professional? How have you managed to do that, number one, and then be part of. Of this cycling team that you're part of? How does that work?

I mean, this is a. This is a D question, right? It's a great question. It's the question I get asked not just about me, but about other people I'm working with or advising or other competitors, athletes or whatever it is. And I can only answer from what works for me. So there's a bit of a sort of caveat that this works for me. So there's a few themes here. The first one is I am incredibly efficient, right? So what do I mean by that? I spend almost no time procrastinating about anything because I'm super clear about who I am, what I'm doing and where I'm going. Super clear. Not only clear with me, but I'm also clear with people around me, whether it's my clients, my teammates, my wife, my coach. So I'm really, really clear about how these pieces of the jigsaw fit together. And then I'm incredibly disciplined and consistent. But the thing that surprises me most is the importance of communicating that stuff to people around you. And then what happens is they get involved, they support you, they stop, they. So. So you. You build up this incredible momentum, if you like. And funnily enough, choice is really inherently inefficient, right? So I didn't give myself a choice. Like, I'll train every day. I work on my mental health every day. I work on Oten's business every day. And I work on my relationships that matter to me every day. My wife, my son, my friends, et cetera, et cetera. And sort of everyone knows that. And so that philosophy, if you, like, you know, you. You sort of hear David Goggins say, you know, how much time you spend on your phone or how much is time you spend in it? If he. If he got rid of that, you know, you could be world chat, you know, and you hear these, like, sound bites. But I'm not. I'm not really a sound bite, sort of. I'm. I'm. I'm a doer, I'm a grafter, I'm a hard worker, like I always have been. And. And then there's another word which my son uses to describe me. And we were talking about, like, if you had a word to put on your tombstone, you know, here lies Richard. Like, he said, relentless is the word go on your tombstone. Like, you are relentless, but not in a selfish sort of. And this is really interesting about, like, just the elite athlete and how many elite athletes I've seen in the past who, because they are necessarily this sort of relentless on one thing, when it's all over, they become very unbalanced or they struggle, or it's a really difficult. And this is why my background, this thing, the equation, this book I've written, is about, because there's this argument between, oh, you can't be an elite performer, and ants, like, I've heard that so many times, they can't do it. It's not possible. I'm telling you it is, because I am right now. Is it easy? Nope. But it's not complex. I don't think it's like one of these things. It's simple but not easy. And I've tried to distill that in my book, the Equation, which doesn't have all the answers, but it certainly has all the things I've discovered and learned through my life. To be able to be an active CEO, be an elite athlete, be a world champion, be a good husband, be a good dad, be a good teammate, meet amazing people like you and talk about stuff like this. So that's how my jigsaw pieces are put together. And I am relentless. And I. And it's something I'll do. I'll never retire. Something I'll do this jigsaw piece, life, until, you know, I'm pushing up daisies.

I think this is brilliant, and I think this is a mistake that we hear quite a lot. I think you rightly say there'll be people that say if you're going to be, you know, world class at this, you have to have this single focus. And the mistake I often see people making is they only set goals in that one area of their life. And yes, guess what? They do that. But all the rest of their life falls to bits, whether it's their business, whether it's relationships, whether their mental health, because they only set goals in one area. And I love the fact that you're talking about, actually, it's perfectly achievable to have success in all of these different areas of your life and be world class at them if you go about them with balance. One of the things that listening to you talk got me thinking, you started this conversation by saying your physiology was good for cycling in that you'd got a good engine, you could clearly cycle well from, right from a young age. But then you've also talked about the fact that you're relentless. So which do you think is more important? The relentless gene that makes you just keep getting firing, determined or the physiology that you were born with?

I don't think relentlessness is genetic, by the way, just a sidebar. You know, I heard Djokovic interview by a guy and he said, oh, one of your gifts is your mental toughness. And Jockey says, no, no, no, no, that's not a gift. That is worked out deliberately, intentionally, every day, right? And so the relentlessness is not genetic. The relentlessness is a decision I made a while ago when my life was off the rails a bit and the people around me deserved better. And I made a decision at that point, probably about 20 years ago that I need to work harder and I need to be better. And in some ways, the reason maybe I didn't continue with cycling is that I had not made that decision. Chris Baldwin made that decision to just be relentless and ride his bike and he became Olympic champion, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that in itself is point one. I think in answer to your question, and this issue of genetic or worked out is a fascinating one. And I'm not sure I know the answer. I think the way I would process it is like my dad used to say, if you put your mind to it, you can achieve anything. That was one of the things he said, and I believe that's true within reason, right? So I could put my mind to saying, do you know what? I'd like to go to the top of a 20 story building and fly under my own power, no matter how good my arms are. And it's not going to happen, right? So there's a limit, like, there's a limit to how much practice and discipline and relentlessness can get you. So there's sort of like a. It's like a gate that you go through that says, you know, genetically, I've got this stuff in my locker and I get into the field. Then, then I think it's all. Then for me, it's all about mindset, consistency, relentlessness. You know, Tiger woods hit, you know, 100,000 golf shots by the time he was 50 or whatever the statistic is, you know, So I, I'm not sure. I don't know if I've exactly answered your question, but that's my sort of thought, my, my thoughts on it. You know, I, you know, bluntly, if I had this level of relentlessness, but I didn't have, you know, six and a half liter volume lungs or whatever they are, you know, would I be as good on the bike? No, but maybe I'd work even harder and maybe I'd do some other cross sort of training thing and I'd be in more energy, like.

So, like it's all the pieces of the puzzle, isn't it? Like all of these different areas sort of, you know, coming together. I think it's, it's an interesting question, isn't it, how you develop that, like toughness and relentlessness, actually.

But back to Charlie's observation about setting goals in different areas, because this is something I feel very strongly about, which is this idea of integration, this separation. I've got a goal here, I've got a goal there, I've got a goal here, I've got a goal there. Again, in my experience, takes a lot of energy and can be quite inefficient and can be quite conflicting, right? That's not how I operate my life. I operate my life as integral. So my sport helps me in my work, right? My relentlessness and my determination helps me as a dad, helps me as a teammate, helps me as a CEO or the equation is. Because these are different components that when you add them together, 1 times 1 times 1 equals more than the, you know, it's like that, the old thing, you know, it's more than the sum of its parts, but if you look at it integrally, it's an integrated life, right? And I think your question, Claire, about how am I able to do it? I didn't answer it fully because I've only just bought that into that integration, right, is the extra magic source. Find things like a Venn diagram, find things that, that when you put them over each other, there's a bit in the middle which makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere close to the potential I was given as a human being.

It's really interesting with integrating goals, I can, I can see how actually you can meet certain goals by doing various different things as well, actually it brings me onto a question around the small 1%, that compound effect or those marginal gains that we know so well in, in sports, how, how do you, you know, coach and teach those marginal gains within businesses like your own business, but also with teams and businesses that you work with?

This is like this links to another thing in Charlie's note about AI, right? Because if everybody's got access to the same data through AI, where does that leave marginal gains? Right? Because everybody's got access to all the data. So marginal gains are not where it's at. Where it's at is paradigm shifts. Paradigm shifts come from human beings, collective intelligence, creativity, looking at problems differently. Like Einstein said, you can't solve complex problems from the perspective that created the problem. Right? So my business was, was, was somewhat in the business of marginal gains, but it's always been in the business of sense making from a, from a human paradigm. How do you make sense of the system when everyone's been thinking about it for 25 years? Right. AI just takes that process to the next level. So how can you make sense of a system? How can you express it, feel it, experience it and share it at a human level? That can start to bubble up completely different ways of looking at solving a problem, a business problem, a leadership problem, an innovation problem. So in some ways, same data, where's your competitive edge coming from? And my business in the last two or three years has started leaning much more into the question of what is the experience that you create for each other, for your clients that feels different, that leads to more creativity, more productivity, higher, more success higher, you know, delving deeper into the human potential. Because that I think it's just my view is one, it's my view. Two, I've got some quite good empirical evidence from the market actually that's telling me this as well, that the really forward thinking leaders are starting to ask the same question.

So is that your experience and what you have seen is, is more this kind of human inner aspect that has more of this Edge or these 1% or these gains and perhaps technology, AI.

Has, well, it's yes and isn't it, it's both, it's both. And so you've got the marginal gains, the data analysis. If you look at what Timo Televaeus does, we set up the team to be the fastest master cycling team in the world. The inspiration came from working with Dan Bigham and the Huub wattbike team. And you know, so we sort of said, well, let's be the equivalent of what they're doing. Dan's a close friend of mine. He wrote the forward to my book. You know, I went to the Olympus, saw him, you know, get his Olympic silver. He should have got a gold. But, you know, there's all sorts of issues. Why he didn't, you know, crashing into a Japanese sprinter in warm up at 80km an hour, you know, in, you know, anyway that people don't even know about, that's another story. You know, my team is fastidious about data. We know everyone's cda, we know everyone's power output. We know like tomorrow we're testing different wheels and different tyre combinations to see if we can find, you know, two or three watts. Because it's been three hours on the Teledrome doing that, because we can. But what I think sets us apart is that we are super curious about this inner edge, the mental side of it. But it's like we've got some very cool tools and processes and methodologies as a business that drop into some of the things we do as a team. I mean, I was lucky enough if people haven't heard of Otto Sharma. So Professor Otto Sharma runs something called the Presencing Institute out of mit. And effectively what Otto's doing is saying, how can we harness a much deeper understanding of the human condition in a world where AI is going to make all the data marginal gain decisions for us? I've paraphrased. Right. But that's effectively what Professor Sharma looks at and he's been one of the biggest inspirations in my career. I've been lucky enough to work with him and the guys at MIT in the presenty Institute and realize that in a world of data analytics gone on steroids, two things. One, I don't want to lose the fact that being human is very important and quite a nice thing. But also you realize those who can go deeper into that side of it have a better chance of finding competitive advantage because it's going to be very difficult to get it from AI.

I completely agree. I think AI is an opportunity to humanize what humans do best, which is creativity, leadership and empathy. And it's an opportunity to digitalize the data and the repetitive and the mundane and the dangerous, isn't it? So it's going to create this polarization of where. And I think that the strategic thinking is an interesting point because I think that's going to be both, actually. So, for example, there's a famous story which I'll sort of paraphrase now, but where AI first beat a human at the leading human at go, which was Lisa Dol. And everyone said AI will never beat a leading human at Go because it's just way more complicated. And it was move 37. When they did move 37 in one of the games and the AI did move 37, everyone thought, there's a bug in the system. That's weird. It should not play that move. It's totally wrong. And in 2000 years of humans playing Go, they hadn't unlocked this entirely different strategy that DeepMind had created within three days of playing Go. And so I think there's going to be this interaction between humans and AI. And in fact, if you take the world's best AI and play the world's at chess, and you play the best human at chess, the AI wins. But pair a human with the AI and it will beat the AI as well. So I think that that's where the opportunities are. I think that strategic thinking between both is going to be. It's going to be really interesting. I'd love to segue into kind of longevity in sport and business. So you've obviously achieved phenomenal things as an elite level in your. In your 50s. What has allowed you to stay competitive physically into. Into your 50s, but also how do you think that translates to the business world again in terms of how you can kind of pursue a long and purposeful career? No, that's the odd idea.

I think certainly the integration point of seeing the overlap between the hard work you put in to your sport also adds value to your business and also adds value to the other things that really matter, family, relationships, friends, teammates, et cetera, et cetera. So that's still a foundational piece of this. I think the second thing is I don't see any of the things I'm working on having an end. So I don't think I'm going to retire at this point or I'm going to do. I'm going to stop doing this. So I was listening to another podcast, I can't remember who said, may have even been the comedian Jimmy Carr who said this. But it stopped me in my tracks, which doesn't happen very often. He said, oh, you hear this phrase, life is a journey, not a destination, right? So you hear this phrase all the time. But he went on then to say, I don't think that's where it's at, where it satisfied. Life is neither a journey or a destination. It's about the person you become on the way, right. And so key to my. This is just me, key to my success. And Continued success and longevity is that every day I wake up, I'm excited about the person I can become that day. I never get bored of it. I'm like a kid. Like at one level, like it's pathetic in some ways. Like I wake up and I'm 56 and I'm like, like, whoa. Like, yes. Like I get to run the bike, I get to speak to amazing clients. So there's a childlike quality that comes out of the curiosity of the person you can become when you lean into the integration between work and sport and family and relationships and energy and, and so you can't help but feel young again. Like, it's just, it's just how I feel. I feel like I even more curious than I did when I was maybe 17 or 18. So this having a path you're on that's not got an end means you can be relentlessly curious and don't also take yourself too seriously. You know, have fun doing it. And, and, and then the other thing you have to do that when you get a bit older is you do have to realize, and the crash was a massive wake up call for me here, right, because you have to realize that you have to take more rests, you need a bit more downtime, right, Intentional downtime, you know, and manage your energy really carefully. And I noticed that when I went out that big crash in the hour record all of 2024, I never got back to the level I was in 2023 and I never got back there. I was always 20 watts down, 15 watts down, 30 seconds down in the time trial. And I lost the World Time Trial Championships because of that very reason in 24. And I realized that, let's say I train 20 hours a week with yoga and gym and bike and 20 hours a week as a 56 year old, that's as much as you can do. So I couldn't do 25 hours a week for January, February, March, April of 2024 to get back to where I needed to be because my body just simply couldn't take it. I couldn't do it until you like you needed to. You just realized there's a ceiling on what you can do as you get older. So that's a bit of a side point about making sure you don't overdo it and over push yourself and just protect your energy. And my last point on that is to be super aware of your energy, like be very self aware of where my energy is and listen to your body. And I actually mean people say or listen to your Body, but I actually mean have a conversation with it. Go into a meditative state or relax and ask questions of your body. What do you think is right? Then try and build a dialogue between mind and body in a very intentional way. That sounds a bit to the woo woo, but I believe it's been quite an important part of my recovery from big setbacks and also being able to keep energized.

At 56, you've talked quite a bit about kind of energies and people talk about energy in lots of different ways, don't they, in different places. But what do you mean by listening to your energy? So for our listeners out there, what does that, that start with? What does that mean? Like how could they start out trying that knowing what their energy is now and where it needs to. Needs to be?

Well, I think the first thing is to set it as a goal like, like for yourself. What do you, what's your relationship like with your own body? Do you just carry on there regardless or so be one, be intentional. So it's a thing in your life that I'm going to be aware of how my body feels and I'm going to sit quietly for five or six minutes a day and feel how I notice how I feel in my body when I just sit there. I've got any pains, I've got any aches, have I got any. And so one, be intentional and say that's something I'm going to do. That's, you've got to start there. Secondly, have a little practice. It could be for me it's, you know, I always start and end the day with a mindful practice, you know, so sometimes it's very simple, you know, I just sit quietly before I get out of bed and look at my phone for 10 minutes. I scan my body, any pains, any aches, and then have a little internal dialogue. Oh, that knee's hurting, you know, what have you got to say? What have you got to say about that knee? And just see what comes up. Sometimes nothing comes up. Okay. Sometimes something will come up. Oh yeah. So it's just about being intentional, setting aside a little bit of time and building your awareness of that. You can go a bit deeper and say, you know, notice the vibrations in your body. Like as you scan the body, stop at the ankle, stop at the knees. Especially athletes, runners, you know, cyclists. Stop at the knees, stop at the hips. Do you notice anything sometimes? No, don't notice anything. Okay, that's fine. Sometimes. Oh, do you notice something? Okay, well, let me stop quietly asking my own mind what have you got to tell me? Knees, hips, gut, and see what comes up. And I was very ill in 2020, like, to the point where, you know, the nurses told my wife, you go to bed, but you should get to the hospital because Richard's. We don't know if he's going to make it. Like, I was really ill. And as part of my recovery, I engaged an embodied healer who worked with me. I mean, I did all the other stuff. I had a great physio, I had a sports doctor and nutritionist, and they helped me. But I also engaged the services of an embodied healer who really talked me through that process of engaging and inner dialogue between mind and body. Yeah. Book for the book. Yeah. There is a section on embodied healing. There's a meditation, a guided meditation I've recorded, so you can be taken through a process. To be able to do that, it takes about eight or nine minutes. You know, you don't have to spend hours on it, but, you know, just be intentional, practice it, develop it. The other thing I'll say about energy is, like you, you know, we are just energy beings. You know, we're just atoms and molecules that vibrate. You know, we. The fact our eyes can't see them is, is, you know, the part of the problem, as Einstein said. But we are just made up of energy. And you sort of know when you, a big competitor, you're always up against, enters the arena or they're on the track with you, so you feel it like, are they good or bad? So it's just like becoming much more aware of that as a practice and being noticing it. And then that's step one. Then, oh, how could I use that? What do I do with that? And I have strategies that are what I would call energetic strategies. You know, so there's mental, there's physical, then there's energetic. It's this third dimension that I've been using quite a lot.

I think it's really interesting. I think there's. There's definitely more to go back to the term we used earlier. Marginal gains in mental health and wellbeing than anyone ever thought was, was possible years ago, and probably most people still think is possible.

Now.

You've mentioned your book, the equation, which I think will be out by the time we release the. The podcast. And it's not out, actually out at this moment in time, I don't think. But what I always want to ask people is what books have you found, help you on your journey? Or what books do you find yourself recommending to other People.

So theory you by Otto Sharma. Right. Very interesting book. Quite academic, but very interesting. Talking about human presence, sense making. He talks about we don't, as humans say, oh, I need to make think of what's going on in my life. You don't say that. You say, I want to make sense of what's going on. But then all we do is think. We don't use our other senses. So the philosophy of that book's really interesting. That's one. The second one is the New Earth by Eckhart Tolle. My mum bought me the New earth for my 40th birthday. It took me about five years to actually get past page four. But it's an amazing book. Totally and utterly amazing. One of the most incredible books. I've got Adipa Chopra's latest book on abundance that is really interesting. I would recommend that. The last one I'd recommend, if I'm allowed one more is, is a book called Transitions by William Bridges. It's especially good for people. Can I say our stage of life. Maybe I'm a bit older than you two, so I don't offend anybody. My stage of life. It's really, really good. It's a brilliant book. Transitions, you know, as you sort of move through your life and you see different phases and it's about how to recognize that and cope with it and flourish in it. Brilliant.

I'm not sure that when we started this podcast, those would have been the books that people would have been expecting you to recommend. So I love that. I actually also started the New Earth about twice and probably got about four pages in, but I was listening to it and I. And it was somebody's. I love the power of. But listening to Eckhart Tolle is challenging. So I'm gonna go back and actually physically read that book because I think that might give me a better shot at it. And the other two Transitions, I've never heard of the Theory youy Never Heard of Love, Deepak Chopra, but I haven't read that one, so that's brilliant. That's. Those some really good books to add to the reading list. Thank you. And then we have a closing tradition on the podcast where the last guest asks the next guest a question without knowing who that person is going to be. And our last guest was the legendary Ironman world champion Kathleen McC. So I think Claire has Kathleen's question lined up.

So Kathleen asks who has been the biggest influence on your career or pushed you to be better?

I think the biggest influence on my career, I think probably. Probably Otto Sharma, actually, when I think about it, because he really pushed me, encouraged me into this much deeper, humanistic sort of space of going deeper into sense making and seeing integration in systems. And so he's probably had the biggest influence on me as a human being and how I think about work and performance and relationships. And closely followed by Dan the Siegel, actually. So those two. I would say that's another book, actually. Anything by Dan Siegel, particularly if you've got teenage kids Brainstorm by Dan Siegel, like Understanding the Teenage Brain. Dan Siegel's a neurobiologist relationship. Just a genius, complete genius. And what was the second part of the question? He's pushed me. Or he was also.

Yeah. Or who is. Who has pushed you to be better?

Dan Bigham, no question.

Brilliant. Well, it's amazing how it's those people that. Yeah. Notice something interesting sometimes. I would have expected that answer to be somebody that you were competing against, but he's obviously pushed you in a different way. But that's fascinating, Richard. It's been absolutely brilliant chatting to you. I think we've got some amazing business insights, some amazing longevity insights, but also some brilliant sporting stories and really fascinating lessons to, to. To take from this interview. So huge. Thank you for that. For those people that want to find out more about your coaching business or about the O10 AVR Cycling Team, or about you in person, where is the best place for them to go? Look.

There'S always stuff on LinkedIn. I'm always putting stuff on LinkedIn so you can find me on LinkedIn. I mean, we, I don't run a coaching business. Bizarrely, you know, I, you know, we've got tools and methodologies and programs that, that sort of help organizations more widely up. I do a bit of coaching, but, you know, it's more on systemic, like ecosystems. It's like systemic work getting groups of people. Collective intelligence. How do we get collective intelligence to work to its highest potential? Of course, you've got to do some individual work in the mix of that. But if you find me on LinkedIn, Timo Tenavers and myself are on Instagram, so you can find us on Instagram. We're doing some interesting technology posts on Instagram at the moment about stuff we're doing on aerodynamics for cyclists and triathletes who might be interested in that stuff. You know, anyone who feels they might like to buy my book, we'll have a Shopify link on Instagram. Any cyclist should follow me on Strava, because I'm very open. You can see the training Sessions I do the power outputs, the heart rates, you know, it's all up there. I've had people from all over the world say, oh, guy, I follow your training. It's inspired people from Chicago and people from South Africa and you know, Strava is a great tool. So you can find me there. Yeah. And oh, 10, the Oten group has a website so you can see what we do organizationally if you want to, if you want to go there. But also just to say thank you to you two great, quite brilliant questions. You know, I feel like I've been properly like, you know, put through the ringer in a very, in a very good way, in a very good way, you know, to really get to the bottom of why I think some of the things I do. And so compliments to you two for getting that out of me. And it's been super enjoyable. Thank you very much, guys. Brilliant.

Thank you.

Thank you very much. So what did you make of the conversation with Richard?

It was fantastic, you know, to have an athlete who is at the top of his game in terms of working, having a full time job. So, you know, all these people that we talk about, you know, in business, having a business, he's, you know, about to launch his book and he's also competing at this really high level as he's getting older. It's fascinating to speak to him and I think that it was really interesting what he was talking about in terms of being more human in conversations and in this world of AI, I guess that's. And you'll be able to answer this question. You know, I guess that's what we are going to have to really pull on is the human aspect as AI starts to come into business. I mean, what's your take on that?

Well, I mean, I think like we said at the time, I think AI is an opportunity to humanize what humans do best. It's freeing up the human to do what they do best. And let's be honest, the thing that human does best is not repetitive, boring, necessarily dangerous activities. What human does best is that empathy, creativity, leadership, all of that kind of emotional stuff. So if AI frees the human up to do more of that and less of the boring admin email sending kind of that stuff, that to me is where the opportunity is. So I think it's a huge opportunity to do. And I think Richard's absolutely right in that we're not trying to shy away from this. You know, AI is not replacing humans at what they do best, it's actually replacing what human you know, like getting distracted while driving down the motorway is a typically human trait. But AI is very good at not getting distracted and just sticking between the lanes and, and focusing on the repetitive and boring task that goes on for hours. So yeah, I think it was, it was really interesting in that sense. And I think whilst initially I think he, it felt like he was anti AI I think when you dig down it's like well actually AI is great for certain things and that because that frees humans up to do other things. So I think that's where I, I took it. What else did you get from. We talked a little bit about goal setting but what else did you get from the conversation with Richard?

I think there were some great things actually I was writing notes as we're going along because there's some really great things that he was saying and one of the things that I picked up on was about this kind of that making things simple. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be easy. And I think we can definitely in business and in sport over complicate things and I think there's with confused messages out there. I think, think often things are over complicated and actually it's having somebody be able to know and be experienced in that area and be able to translate complicated science or complicated technology into simple and easy to be able to use. But like you said actually all of you know, all of this being more human in business, it, it does take work because you have to listen to yourself and change yourself and be aware of yourself. So that for me was really interesting. I thought the other thing about you were just mentioning about goals and he was talking about not having like these goals on their own but actually integrating goals into other areas of life or business. So what is your take on that? Because you're a great goal setter and you're often talking certainly at trusted team you're talking a lot about goal setting and you're brilliant at setting but meeting your goals. So what is your thought on this, this integration?

Well, I think so the way I described it at the time was instead of having go like a lot of people have goals in one area of their life because they get told to set goals. So they set business goals and guess what, they have a successful business life and everything else falls by the wayside. So I actually think that there's, I always talk about the six fears of success which, and we should set goals in each of them. So that's what you do inside the business but also as a business owner because that's typically who I coach, what you do on the business. So that's you as the, let's say, accountant or financial advisor inside the business. But also a separate set of goals should be about you as the entrepreneur, as the business owner, and then the other four spheres, health, wealth, happiness and relationships. And, and I agree with Richard, I think they are intertwined. I'd be intrigued to know and actually just look at his goal setting process because I, when I write out my goals for each of those different areas, they do overlap and they do intertwine, but I have distinct goals for each of them. And so I would be intrigued to know what process he goes through. I know I sit down every quarter and write out, you know, what's my next quarter's goals for each of those six areas? Every year I sit down and go, what's next year's goals? And what have I got to do this quarter to be on track for that? And it, and I've got it siloed in my brain as to. But they're not independent of each other. They are like, I can't say, you know, for example, if I want to do another Iron man, it's like, okay, well, can I make a family experience out of that Ironman? Or it can I make a business case out of that Ironman? Or I want to speak at this conference in the U.S. can it be a family trip or can I tie it in with some adventure and go cycling? And that's. So they definitely, definitely intertwine. But I think in my mind, you've still got to have a separate focused goal for each of those areas. Otherwise I, I just can't quite get my head around exactly how that works. But I definitely think he's right in that they are intertwined, albeit you still need the separate goals. And, and it's by having those separate goals that you create balance. Because if everything is about you completing your Ironman and you doing well in business, guess what? Your relationships are going to suffer and probably you might even burn out as well. So therefore, your own health has fallen by the wayside. So actually, you know, you've got, you've got to find balance. And I find that by doing those six spheres of happiness, it kind of helps me make sure that I am creating balance through my goal setting process. And I suppose I'll just sort of throw that back to you because you've obviously worked with this approach through, you know, being a part of the trusted team. How has that approach worked for you?

So I totally agree that I think. And actually when you were saying it, the whole idea of having these separate focus goals doesn't mean to say they don't come together at some point. You giving that perfect example of actually. And I was thinking actually from an ironman perspective, you're training for this maybe one or two major A races. But actually how can you integrate another goal into it? We'll go and race in some fantastic place and go to somewhere and I often find I'm like, well actually this was never where I was going to go on holiday, but if I go to this place I would never have visited there otherwise. And what an amazing experience. So I think for me being able to list it out, particularly in other areas that I wouldn't have set a goal. So for example, would I have set a relationship goal before? No, like I just wouldn't have thought about that. I would have thought maybe, oh well, I could, you know, go to that place, but I can take some friends with him, I'll meet friends there. But I wouldn't have thought it in the way that you set them out at Trusted Team. So I do really like that because it absolutely does make you look at areas of your life that you would probably and certainly from my perspective I would have probably missed or neglected in terms of goal setting. But it doesn't mean to say that they don't then merge because one thing that you've just said is time. You know, actually when you're really busy actually how can you do those things? So you going away and speaking at an event but going somewhere amazing and cycling there or going to an event like when you went to Kona and took your whole family, what an amazing family experience. I think it really, that goal setting approach into other areas for me is key because they are the areas I think that often people miss or drop and you know, relationships then break down. Your fun, your health, that's all missed, isn't it? If you're not setting goals around it.

And I think the other thing is that by having a goal setting process, it's just forcing you to sort of step out of it for a period. You know, we say that, you know, the idea of writing goals for your business is so that you're, you step out of working in the business and you think about the bigger picture stuff and you force yourself to go, well, okay, yeah, we're busy doing this thing here, but is it actually the right thing? Should we be kind of lifting our head up and going oh, actually we could do something differently or smarter or whatever. It's the same with relationships, isn't it? You can either keep plodding along. I can't remember who it was I was listening to that said their spouse got the kind of leftovers. You know, the business took a huge chunk of them, their hobbies and fitness took a huge chunk, the children took a huge chunk, and the spouse got the leftovers. So they ended up putting in specific time that I. Once a month or once a week, we're going to do this. Once a month, we're going to do that. Once a quarter, we're going to do that. And by doing that, they kind of ring fence. And all it took was a little bit of planning. So that's exactly what, you know, Carol and I do. We'll try and have a date night once a month, but we'll have kind of us time once a week. And then once a quarter we have a full planning day, which is just kind of looking back at the last quarter and going, okay, did we do what we said we were going to do? Essentially the same process that we go through from a business goal setting, but we do as a couple and on a family basis. And it's just that thought and that conversation that brings out awareness and it makes you set a plan for the next month, three months, year, whatever it is. And you're much more likely to implement on that plan if you've created it in the first place.

I think, I think also create, you know, I often talk with my clients about, you know, setting these specific goals because people often say, in the world of nutrition, oh, well, I want to lose weight, I don't know, 2kg. Well, what does 2kg look like? And why is it so important? So actually setting a goal, but having a vision around it. So, you know, some of your goals that you're setting through trusted team and the ones you've just been talking about, you know, having a goal, you know, from a relationship point of view, actually there's a vision attached to that, isn't there? Like, we're going away for a week or, you know, we're going away for the weekend, like that I feel is really important because then you're more likely to meet a goal if you've got a vision that surrounds it.

Yeah. And when you commit something to paper or digitally or you just verbalize it with somebody else, you create accountability both to yourself and with other people. And again, yeah, you're likely to implement it, aren't you? So, yeah, like you say, if you, if you set a goal and it's to lose this amount of weight or to change your diet in this way, and you write it down and share it with somebody else, guess what? It's way more likely to happen, isn't it? So, yeah, brilliant. Well, a great episode and, like, really inspirational. And I think, I think also what we can take from Richard is that, you know, he's achieving these incredible feats and becoming world champion and, you know, seven times world champion, but he's becoming, you know, he's won world championships and set world records in his 50s and will continue to do that, I have no doubt. And so, you know, if, if anyone's sitting here thinking, oh, yeah, but I didn't do this, it's too late. No, it really, really isn't. And if you read Richard Asquith's latest book, Race Against Time, it's talking about a lot of stories about Masters Athlet, how amazing a community that is, but how amazing some of these people are racing, you know, way beyond Richard's 50s and into their 60s, 70s and even 80s and hundreds. It's. It's incredible. So it's another book for the reading, the ever expanding.

Ever expanding.

Yes, brilliant.

Well, a great episode. And for everyone at home, keep on training.

Sam.