Cycling Improvements with Matt Bottrill

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Athlon podcast, finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

You know, I had all this success, so I was like, right, I've had all this success. What can I. What can I do with it? Almost like, want to help people. And that's when I, you know, I went on this mission of, like, I want to sell my own coaching business.

That was Matt Bottrell, and this episode is cycling improvements. This episode, I got the opportunity to check chat to Matt Botterill from Matt Botterill Performance Coaching.

Now.

Matt had an incredible cycling career himself. At one stage, he had the competition records for the fastest ever time ridden in the UK for 50 miles, for 25 miles, and for 10 miles, he'd won pretty much every national championship over all those distances, plus the 100 miles. So he had an incredible cycling career. And then he went on to set up Matt Bottrill Performance Coaching, where they coach some incredible athletes, whether that be Tim Don, Susie Cheetham, Will Clark. So he's taken his knowledge of the cycling world and he's built this incredible coaching business where he's brought in a whole load of other coaches to help him on the different areas of. Of expertise within triathlon. And so in our conversation, we talked a lot about how can we improve our cycling, whether. Whether you're an amateur or a professional, what do we do? And it's all about, you know, the conversation is all about aerodynamics, it's about training with power, it's about feel versus data, it's about getting through the dark times. It's so much stuff that Matt was able to share with me on how we can improve our cycling. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. This podcast is brought to you by Ember, which make British biltong beef jerky and charcuterie. I'm a big fan of biltong. I don't eat a lot of meat, but if I'm going to eat a meat treat, then some biltong with a pint works really well for me, discovered in South Africa years and years ago. And I particularly love Embers Garlic and Rosemary biltong and their chili rub Biltong. Both absolutely delicious. And what I really like about Ember is it's a much lighter biltong than a lot of the ones I've had. So go to ember embersnacks.com which is spelled E M B E R embersnacks.com and give it a try. Honestly, if you like biltong and you eat meat, then this is a great one to try and at the end of this podcast, I'll have a discount code for you as well. This podcast is also brought to you by the Tribeathlon app. The best place to find your next event. Whether you're interested in cycling, running, swimming, triathlons, duathlons, obstacle based races, whether it's on the road or on the gravel, you can find, search for and track down the best events for you to compete in. And not only that, you can find the ones where you know people that are entering as well. So you can have the most fun experience entering those events because you know other people that are attending. So go to tribathlon.com to find out more and download the app. So, welcome to the Triathlon podcast.

You know, I've just been reading your.

Bio and obviously I knew a bit.

About you before, but it is quite incredible the amount of stuff that you've done and the amount of stuff that you've achieved.

And so.

But for those people that don't know you, why don't you just tell us a little bit about where you've come from, tell us a bit about your background and how you've got from right at those starting points through to where you are now with the coaching business.

Yeah, so obviously I've been doing this pretty much all of my life. I was an overactive youngster. It was kind of on a track to get into a lot of trouble. And I remember it was my granddad actually to me one day, look, you've got all this energy, you need to do something with it. And I was struggling at school at the time, so I kind of, I was like the class idiot. And then I kind of discovered cycling at the age of like 12. And all of a sudden, you know, I had this like, yeah, I had a sport that I could be disciplined in and I pretty far, you know, I found out pretty quickly that I was going to be quite good at it. So once I discovered that, it was kind of like, well, you know, my mission was I want to try and be the best at this I can be. And it kind of escalated from there, you know, like in the early days, you know, I was like national junior champion, British best all rounder. I then went on to get like selection for the world class before performance program. You know, I was part of that when like Bradley Wiggins was on it. Charlie Regalius, they're probably some of the key names that a lot of athletes will probably know. But in that time I also was unfortunate that, you know, I'd ridden like the world and the 23 championships. But I also got over training syndrome. And it was kind of that, you know, I went to some really dark places in that time, and I never. I'd, like, almost like a year out, but I kind of. Yeah, I realized at that point that, you know, that I was given a lot of bad coaching and that I kind of needed to unlock, like, how could I become, like, a better athlete? And then I just went through a process, really, of, you know, I won a lot of races in that time, but I was always, you know, like, my goal was to be national champion. You know, I raced in France. I soon realized, you know, I was winning races out there. I kind of realized that I wasn't that pro kerb, but I wanted to be a successful amateur and ended up coming back to the uk and I had this mission then and becoming, like, national champion. And. Yeah, and I. I went through, I know, like, five, six years of, you know, I was like, finished second, third, fourth, and it was doing my head in. You know, I wanted to be this national champion. And then in 2010, I found a new coach and somebody that understood, like, aerodynamics, and that was it. From that, you know, almost like from that moment, I was just on, like, this upward curve and. And then in 2014, I basically achieved, you know, I won every national championship. And, yeah, I set some of the fastest time that I've ever been at the time. They were the fastest times written in the uk and, yeah, and it was kind of, you know, I was like 36 then. And then I went, you know, I had all this success. So I was like, right, I've had all this success. What. What can I. What can I do with it? Almost like, want to help people. And that's when I, you know, I went on this mission of, like, I want to start my own coaching business. And it kind of just went pretty crazy from that point. I did another year in cycling after that, won the nationals again. And then I was like, well, I need a new objective now. And then decided that I was going to do triathlon. And I had a year and a half at doing try. But ultimately, my. My big. Initially, like, most days, you know, like most people, I want to get to Kona. But then I kind of realized just how hard that was going to be and the time that I needed to put into it. And I almost, like, wanted to get away from this pressure recycling. You know, like, when, you know, when you're at the top, there's only one way you're gonna go. I kind of wanted to find that balance of enjoying it. But the problem is, you know, you start getting a bit of success, and you're like, okay, what. What else can I do? How much harder can I train? And it just kind of takes over. It's like, for all athletes in triathlon, isn't it? You know, they. They almost, like, get addicted to the training. And I was on the. On the same curve, but, yeah, and that kind of. That was kind of the coaching career. And. Yeah, you know, obviously, we've had a lot of success with that, with age groupers and a lot of the professionals that we work with, and a lot of that has come in triathlon. You know, we're like, a number of professionals. So professionals are you working with at the moment?

I know.

So the ones that we're working with at the minute, I work with. I work with Tim Don. He's been the longest athlete that's been with me basically since 2016. I started working with Tim. He was kind of struggling to break into Ironman, and, you know, he won, like, all these 70.3s, but. Break iron Man. I started coaching Tim, and then obviously he broke the Ironman world record, which was, like, phenomenal. Then unfortunately had that really bad accident leading into Kona. But, yeah, Tim's. Yeah, Tim's like, basically my training buddy. I. I must see. I speak to Tim at least every day. I train with him at, like, at least three, four. Four times a week. So, yeah, we've become great friends. And also we've got this amazing coaching relationship. Then a coach, Matt Hanson. I know, obviously, he then went on to break, like, the Ironman world record. Tim o', Donnell, who was second in Kona, and our coach, Justin Metzler. And who else do I coach? There's a number of them. And I've done, like, loads of work with different people. Everybody from, like, you know, I coached lucy charles for 18 months, altair. You know, the position used to be on the bike. That's all come down to me and Suzy Cheetham, who've been with me for a long time. Will Clark, kind of a lot of the domestic professionals that we all know. I've done something around either bike fitting or coaching. So it's. Yeah, it's been a. But, yeah, it's been an awesome few years.

I was gonna say what an incredible few years you've had. I mean, you know, I think, you know, the cycling thing is obviously incredible, what you're achieving. I mean, I think it's really interesting how cycling took you away from being, you know, a bad lad and getting in trouble. And I think that isn't that such a common story in top athletes in that they needed an out for this, this energy. And you know, I think that's.

And is that kind of totally. Like I was just being told in school that I was going to be a nobody and then, you know, I wasn't academic, but I knew that I could be successful in sport and people telling me that I wasn't going to achieve set me on this mission. I was wanting to be the best and it's like I've still got that in me now. It doesn't come through as much as being, you know, that's gone from being the athlete now into the business side and into, you know, like my coaching. Like the people that we coach, like, you know, I'll say to them that we're going to get this right. You know, I'm so driven by that. Whether it's somebody that wants to get up a hill for the first time, ride a time trial bike, or somebody that wants to break like, you know, like a world record. I'm just on this mission and I just love it, you know, like I love the process of breaking things down and then analyzing what I can help these, these people achieve. It's phenomenal really.

I think I'm right in saying that.

You were previously a postman, weren't you?

Yeah.

How was that transition from postman to you know, deciding to take your hobby into your business and how's that been?

It's been. Yeah, it's been unreal. You know, I was like a Postman for like 18 years. You know, it was an awesome job. It kept me fit, it allowed me to do the sport that I wanted to do. And ultimately in a coaching perspective, it just allowed me to understand like the, the art of what it takes to, you know, like the working man to then work out what load they're getting from stresses, you know, like from family, work, sleep and then to the training. And that gave me a massive advantage, you know, over a lot of people because, you know, like top end coaches definitely, generally they come from the sport, they don't necessarily understand like how it is to, you know, have a full time job and all these different stresses. So for me it was like a massive advantage. And ultimately, you know, like there was always these big stories. You know, I was basically, you know, I beat a lot of the pros and I was training like 8 to 10 hours. But it was just in a very scientific way. You know, I remember finishing second in the British time trial challenge, beating a lot of the athletes that were riding for sky, you know. But once I'd found this approach to training and then the science of, like, aerodynamics and all these little bits, you just, you know, I was able to translate in, you know, that over to my way of coaching, which has been pretty awesome. Fantastic.

Well, I mean, it's just so lovely to hear somebody that's working in their passion. And you touch on something. You mentioned the importance of power meters.

Certainly in your bio.

I think you've just mentioned it as well as the aerodynamics piece, which I want to come on to. But with the power meters, you know, you read, you know, like, for example, I remember reading Chrissie Wellington's book all about. And she talks a lot about. She trained on feel rather than data. What are your beliefs around feel versus data?

And then kind of let.

Yeah, it's kind of like I was blown away when I initially came into to the sport of triathlon. Like, I remember, you know, even at like, pro level, everyone to me, you know, like, how do you ride? How do you ride your races? Well, everybody was saying, well, you know, I ride on. I ride at 70.3 watts a ride at Ironman Power. I was like, well, what, what is that? You know, eventually I worked out that was a percentage of what their threshold was. But ultimately, like the science of the sport, there's so much that we can actually calculate with, you know, metrics. But I do believe, you know, like, all these athletes that, you know, they talk about, you know, like, this feel of riding, you need that, especially in this sport. You, you know, like, you need this downtime, you know, like when, you know, a long endurance ride can be a long endurance ride. And you've got to have these days when ultimately you should, you know, like, you switch off. But if you want to get them, you know, like, you want to maximize the most out of your potential day. With a power meter, we're able to calculate, you know, like, how you're adapting to training because you can download the data. We can be really scientific in the terms of, you know, like when we profile courses, but then we can train you for the demands of those courses. We're also able to take like, power meter data and, you know, like, we can take like, weather conditions and we can take like your aerodynamics and we can calculate everything. That's the biggest thing, you know, like this sport is how do you get from A to B in the fastest time possible. And to achieve that, you've, you know, like, What I'm trying to do with my athletes is I want to save them as much energy as I can on the bike to ultimately run to their full potential. But if you're not training for the demands of the events, then you're never going to, ultimately you're never going to be able to reach that because you don't understand what it is that, you know, like how you're adapting to training, how, how you pace those events. You just cannot do that on field. It's just too scientific to be able to do that, you know.

So if somebody was coming into the room just buying a power meter and.

Saying, right, okay, how do I go.

From, you know, I've been doing triathlons but I want to train at a better level. There's some kind of quick wins that they can say, you know, how would they, what would they be looking at with that power meter to start with?

Yeah, you know, like without, you know, you can be really scientific with this. There's so many different ways of testing, but ultimately the best way is, you know, you get your power meter initially. You know, I always say to everybody, you know, you almost like take a two week window where you just get used to just like look, you know, like trying to learn to control the number before you even, you know, before you even look at doing any power testing. Because initially it's just a number generator, you know, like you just see it fluctuates on the turbo trainer it'll be really stable, but out on the road it's going to fluctuate quite a bit. So that's kind of the first phase and you know, start looking at the power to the heart rate. But once you've kind of got this power meter, then there's something you know, like you can do. Like ultimately you can just do like a 20 minute test. We take that and what you do is you do the 20 minute test, you have a bit of warm up, you do your 20 minute test and then we take from that, then you're able to take a percentage of your threshold. We take like 5% off that and then that will give you your training zones. And there's things like, now there's like, you know, like loads of calculators that you'd be able to Google search that then will give you, you know, like zones that you'd be able to enter. And once you've got the training zones, then you can be really scientific in the terms of the way that you're going to train. But the winning, you know, like for A lot of people in the sport of Ironman or 70.3 Olympic distance, then we want to start spending more around like that 90% of your threshold initially, you know, like building these blocks up of working at 90% because then that's going to adapt you to more, well, learn to control the power, but it'll also adapt you to training more efficiently and we call that sweet spot. And the great thing about sweet spot is it's not hard enough. You know, like, you know, like you do like a VO2 max session, it takes quite a lot out of you. But if you start looking at building, you know, initially you could do like 3 by 10 minutes with nice recovery. Ultimately you want to try and get to that stage where, you know, if you can do an hour at sweet spot 90% of your threshold, then you're going to adapt, you know, like the improvements that you would see in your fitness would, well, they'd increase quite dramatically. And I would say that for most athletes, like, if you're, you know, like you're in this sport, you're limited on time, then that's probably the most rewarding training that a lot of athletes are going to get. So I'd say that that's kind of a win win, you know, like initially. But the art that I found with training is, you know, like, I've had so much coming into this sport, you know, of triathlon, you know, is it over gear, is it getting the miles in? You know, it's. But for me, I found it's the variation that gives the biggest rewards. So it's keeping the training varied.

Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, I was going to say what do you mean by variation?

But it's mixing up. Is it? And doing what? And is that a scientific approach or is it just doing actually what you enjoy as well?

It's kind of not, not always doing what you enjoy. Because if you enjoy it, then does anyone enjoy doing like a VO2 max effort? No, not really. But it's kind of like you can be really scientific in that. So if you looked at somebody's power profile, you want to be, you know, even for age group athletes, they need to be strong between like 30 seconds. Why do we need that? Well, every time you go uphill, you're going to, you know, you're going to go into the red. Every time you come out of a corner, you're going to accelerate. But we need to be from 30 seconds to one hour. So if you look at power duration curve, we want to be. You want that Quite varied. We need different training zones to be able to, you know, like to be able to pace better, to be able to, you know, like, add all this variation, because that's the art of, you know, like, to become a great time trial is to become a great athlete riding a time trial bike in a triathlon, then we need to be able to pace in a very different way. Like, even pacing doesn't really work if you want to go quick. You know, it's great for a lot of athletes that they're able to, like, just control the power. But if you want to ride fast, you need to know when to push the power and when to back it off. And that's when aerodynamics, you know, like, really comes into it. And what I'm always, you know, as a coach, that's what my job is, analyzing this data and telling them how to pace the courses.

Fantastic. And so coming on to then aerodynamics, what again, what areas would you be saying?

Well, these are, these would be often.

Be the quick wins for the kind of the amateur cyclist or somebody that's, you know, a good amateur. But, you know, where do you tend to find the biggest improvements?

Yeah, so like, obviously, like what everybody needs to remember, it's like, like 80% of the drag is going to come from your body position, you know, like when you're riding. So we all want nice bikes, we all want these nice wheels. That's great. And there is gains to be made there, but 80% of the drag is going to come from your body. So how are we going to achieve that? Well, the body position itself, and that's going to come through like, you know, like things like tri bars and, but having them fitted correctly. And obviously like a big factor of that is, yeah, bike fit is going to be a key element to this. You know, if you can get somebody that knows what they're doing with a bike fit, number one, they're going to make you more aerodynamic. But number two, too, they're going to make you more, you know, like from a biomechanic point of view, they're going to stop you getting injured and make you more efficient. So what. Yeah, so that, that's that key part. So the body position. But what we want to be able to do with that, like head and shoulder position are the key elements. You know, like, that's where you need to start. You know, like you see, you know, like you see a lot of triathletes, like the bolt upright. Well, they're probably going to give away like, you know, 30 to 40 watts in terms of power. So you're going to give away, you know, over a 70.3 course, they're probably giving away anywhere up to 10 minutes just in aerodynamics, you know, like through having bad head and shoulder position. So they wanted, initially they just want to try and get that dialed in. So if you're riding around on your own bike, but if you put some clip ons, then you're going to go a lot quicker. But you need to get that fitted correctly. It's not just bolting your tri bars on and going for it. You need to understand like how your body can fall into that, you know, like the body shape. So I would say for a lot of people, like just looking at yourself in the, you know, look at, you know, the best in the sport, you know, like the ones that, you know, like you can see that they've made improvements, but then look at yourself in the mirror and then start playing around, like stick your hands up, go longer on the extensions because all these things are going to drop you into a different position. Like generally speaking, I would say for a lot of triathletes, you know, they build a lot of muscle. If they're bad swimmers around, they don't swim from the lats, they swim from the shoulders. So kind of going long and higher generally works a lot better. But if you dial that bit in, then that's when you want to start looking at clothing. That's, you know, that's a massive area for improvements. You know, like a lot of athletes are wearing sleeveless where sleeves generally will give you an advantage. And then another big one is going to be helmet position, you know, and that's kind of, that's the key body position, ones that you want to try and adapt into. And you haven't got to spend like a lot of, you know, like you haven't got to spend a lot of money doing that. But that's an area that I would say for every triathlete. If you've got your bike, you want to work on that. But then it's quite complex. You can start breaking everything down then from your bike. But another big factor is going to be rolling resistance. A lot of people are worried about puncturing when it comes to, you know, like tire selection. But if you get the right tires, and again, you know, if anyone wants to, you know, you can Google something called rolling resistance facts for cycling tires. And you'll see like the, what, you know, like the, the amount of power you're gonna save between a good tire and a bad one. So, so yeah, bicycle rollingresistance.com it's called. So it's kind of those things that you can make some significant gains, you know, but then you can start breaking everything down. You know, it's quite complex once you get, you know, like you really get into. It just depends how, how in depth you want to go, you know, but the advantages are, you know, it's like somebody like Tim Gong, you know, we were able to save like 40 watts overall from better pacing. And this is somebody that was like a world class triathlete, you know, when he broke the Ironman world record, he went 16 minutes faster, you know, from his previous time. But you just got to, yeah, you've got to know what you're doing to do that. But it's kind of did every, you know, even me, you know, I'm still trying to find like all these marginal gains. So there's a lot to be found.

But it is incredible. I think maybe that's where you've got your unique advantage. Is it because you've come into it from cycling? Because, I mean, yes, you can get faster swimming and there's obviously techniques and training that you need there. And the same with running and, you know, probably people glaze over the running technique more than they should. But with cycling there is so much opportunity for those marginal gains, isn't it? Everything from the helmet to the position. I mean, like the cycling clothing that you just mentioned, that's fascinating. I've always, I did my Ironman in a sleeveless top. Guaranteed I'm now gonna go buy a sleeved top.

Yeah.

And there's just so many things that you can improve.

Cycling element. Absolutely. But that's the biggest thing that, you know, I came into this sport and I was like, I was just amazed, like he was so technical what I'd done in cycling. I came in, everyone was telling me how they rode a bike. It was just so simple. I was like, no, that's not how it is. But then I went to swimming and, and you know, I'd never swam. Like, literally I could swim. I swam as a, as a kid. Not proper lessons, like literally. You know, I remember finished second in the world Amateur Cycling Championship and I said, right, I'm going to be this triathlete. I couldn't even do two lengths up and down the pool. But then when I met the right people and they were able to break like the technique down of how to swim and it's like when you school, you know, like, you get that feeling, don't you or you learn to catch the water. It's like you can feel it feels. So it feels amazing. Then you go into full stroke and it's like, wow, this feels effortless. And that's how that's kind of outside and feels to me. You know, I can feel the wind. I know. You know, I can ultimately tell you if a bit of clothing or an item is going to be quicker. I've just got like this way of, you know, with all the wind tunnel stuff in wind tunnel testing stuff I've done, I just know if it's faster or not. I can feel like how the air is attaching and leaving. But that's the same with aerodynamics on the bike is that, you know, like if you can tune into this. So it's like stick your head up, you'll feel the wind. Stick your shoulders out, you'll feel the wind around them. But coming back to the swimming, that's what I loved about it. It was so technical. And biking is just the same, you know, and if you can grasp that, then you know what makes a great swimmer to a bad one, it's the fluid dynamics compared to aero. Then you'll start to grasp. You know, we all look at like what's the fastest wetsuit but you know, there's a massive saving to be made. Probably even bigger chunk on the bike if you look at these areas with skin suits and stuff.

Yeah, yeah, no, I can believe that. And I was having a look at matt bottrell performancecoaching.com before we started this and actually I didn't realize you've got shopping there for a lot of these components, haven't you? And I was looking, I just happened.

To be the first.

I ride on a giant trinity and almost the third thing either. This is great Google analytical programming to say that the third thing I saw was some. Was some handlebar spacer extenders for a giant trinity.

I was like, oh, that's interesting. I've been thinking.

So that made me think, well, there's been a lot of talk over the last year of tri bar position.

Isn't there particularly?

I think that kind of one of the. One of the top iron man at Kona. I remember there was just, you know, talk about how he was much higher than a lot of other people and it seems to have been a trend to change.

Yeah, but it's kind of so like they're probably talking about like obviously I like coach Tim o' Donnell and I coached like loose. Yeah, I did coach Lucy Charles and they've both got like, high hand positions, but the reason for that for them, and it works well, is because it's the rotation of the shoulders. So. Yes, and what we're trying to assess is like, different yaw angles, so how that wind hitting you will give different readings then in. In terms of, like, the, you know, like, how much drag you're creating. Generally speaking, like, obviously, like a lower pole position is going to be quicker, you know, like different yaw angles. That pole position lower is going to be. It's going to be faster. But the problem you've got with a lot of triathletes is that they can't shrug the shoulders and then pull down into the position. So every athlete is going to need, like a different extension, and that's going to be varied between like 20 to potentially 50 degrees. But what is also gonna make a big difference is kind of pad width. You know, like someone need to go narrower, some will need to go wider. But all it's about is how, you know, like, you're getting this body position into, you know, like you're trying to get it narrower. So. Yeah, but it's so different for everybody. And everybody's going to have a limitation on what they can and can't do, you know, and that's. But my biggest job is then, okay, we can get them into the position on, you know, like, say we take them to the wind tunnel, we get them in these amazing positions, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be able to hold it. And then that's when it comes down to doing drills in training. You know, like, we do a lot of drills exactly as you would do in Sweden swimming. We train the athlete obviously, to get fitter. We know how to do that. But then you've got to train the body to adapt, and you've got to try and adapt them to a different way of pacing because, you know, no one's going to sustain like, that most aerodynamic position for the duration of their event. You've got to know when to use it.

So that's interesting actually then. So with an ironman, I mean, clearly you're on the bike for a fair chunk of time, some longer than others.

How you know, what proportion of time.

Do you think would you expect a professional athlete to be in their most dynamic position and then maybe an amateur as well?

Yeah, well, kind of like you should be able to train your body to all probably, like, it depends what, like, I generally work on a rule of form of, like, you've got three positions You've kind of got the one where you've got, like, this ultimate aero one. You know, like, that's when you really, you know, you shrug your shoulders, you keep the head low, but the, you know, like, you probably only use, like, 10% of an Ironman. You probably only use it, like, at 10% because it. It's quite hard to sustain it. But the key to that would be, you know, like, when the speeds are really high and when you're going. So when you're going downhill, the times when you're running out of gears and then you've kind of got like that medium baseline, ultimately you should be able to hold that, like 70 to 80% of your race. But. And that's kind of. You dropped into position. It feels comfortable, but you know that. You can feel it, but it's not unsustainable. And then you've got, obviously, this one where you just like, just get me to the finish. Or kind of when you're climbing, you know, like, you'll come out of position. And that's. Yeah, but you've always got to remember that is kind of like when it's headwind, the power's the most important part. You push the power, you try and hold, like, a decent position, but when it's tailwind, the speeds are really high. Going downhills and aerodynamics is everything. So that's going to be the key for anyone that wants to improve.

So just to reiterate on that, because that sounded like a really important point. So uphill and into the wind is power, whereas downhill is aerodynamic. Is that right?

Definitely. Aerodynamic or tailwind. So when the speeds are high, you're running out of gears, and aerodynamics is a lot of people the wrong way around. But trust me, I've practiced this so much, and all the coat, you know, like, all the course profiling that we've done, that this is the way that athletes are meant to ride, you know, if they want to. Yeah. They want to unlock those times, you know, and it's like. Yeah, yeah, no, it's good. It's the same ways we can calculate now. You know, like, we're able to get this date from, you know, like somebody like Tim O' Donnell's Kona split. You know, he was like 17 seconds in a time that Mike predicted to what he actually rode. And we generally. You're never too far away in terms of the timings that. Yeah, you got to kind of know what you're doing to be able to do that.

But it's absolutely fascinating as Somebody that's.

You know, kind of.

I'm only three years into triathlon and. But I was just coming into it from cycling. There is so much to learn. I mean, you know, I feel like it's a constant, you know, every day is a school day, but. But it actually is. It's a fascinating thing to learn about, you know, and, you know, with. With all of these aspects and so.

To be able to.

For that to be your job now as well, you know, I think, you know, you, you're. You're a lucky guy.

Yeah, I've kind of. Yeah, but it's kind of like my old, like for me is like I. Obviously as a coaching company, then we coach triathlon. We've got like coaches that coach it. But my kind of job now is I'm not a tri. I am. I coach in triathlon. I work on like, I understand like swimming, I understand like running. And I could plan it, but my main job is planning the cycling element. And almost I totally understand like the demands of all those of the sport. And I just focus on what I know. I'm, you know, I believe that I'm the best in. You know, that sounds quite beginning saying that, but I just know that like I've. That's what I can do better than anybody else and that that's what gives my advantage, you know, that gives me an advantage over all the other coaches out there. And then I can build that into my team and it filters into it. And I think that's what goes wrong in a lot of sports is that people just try and do too much. Well, I'm a big believer in. I work with like working in a team and that's how you get all the answers. Because nobody, you know, any coach that comes out and says, oh yeah, we can do everything and the lion, you know, it's impossible. They can be, you know, I'm not saying that they can be good at it, but they can't be the best, you know, and they can't get the best out of their, their athlete because how can you. Because you're not, you're not, you know, like, you're not working on the bit, you know, like you're not focused on the bit that you're good at.

Well, I completely agree. I think this is a concept that.

We work on in my, in my.

Kind of other business, my financial planning business, because you have to refine it down to what is. Dan Sullivan would describe as your unique ability. So, you know, if you're brilliant at cycling and good at running and swimming, you're only going to be a good triathlete coach, aren't you? But if you focus on doing the bit you're best at coaching of the cycling, and then you get coaches in to do the other elements that are, you know, as good at swimming and running as you are cycling, then that means that you can provide a much, much better coaching approach to your clients.

Yeah, yeah, that's what I've always wanted to do, you know, like, my approach is I just want everyone to succeed and to do that you just got to work. You've got to understand people, but then you've got to build, you've got to work with different people in all these different aspects and that's how, that's how you get it, you know. Got to be kind of obsessed to do that as well. But, you know, and it gives you a few headaches, you have to have a few disagreements. It's great. But, and it's like for everybody, you know, like, say if you are, you know, like you're self coaching, I didn't get to the top of the sport. I've had a lot of success. You know, I've won loads of races, over 500 races, but I kind of, I failed so many times before I got the success. But each time I was like, I learned from that mistake. Then I was like, well, I'm not going to make that one again. And that's the art. Even, even as a coach now I make the odd mistake but I'm like, okay, well you would, you didn't adapt to this, but, right, we'll fix it the next time. And that, and that's how you, you can't just keep repeating the same thing though. And I think that's what goes wrong, especially in this sport, is people just focus on like, I've got to get the hours in, I've got to do X amount of training sessions, but you've got to, technically, you've got to get improved and get your mind stronger. Like the mind is. We all talk about training but we don't really talk as much about, you know, like the mind and recovery. But all these elements are just as important and if you get those right, that's how you find that extra 3 to 5%. And you kind of need to just utilise that on race day.

It's funny actually, every one of these podcast interviews I've done, whether it be Jeff Galloway, whether it be Luke Tversky, everyone, we've come back to the fact that the mental side of these sports is a huge factor, a much bigger factor than most people give credit to.

Oh, yeah, no, totally. I love the mental aspect of it, but I was pretty mental as an athlete. You know, I could just tap into and everybody's kind of got it, but not everybody can tap into it. Like there's a great documentary, you know, like, I don't know if, you know, the Michael Jordan documentary. And he was just so good at like tapping in, into this energy and everybody's got that, like, it's kind of this emotion. It's not like. And we've all got these pain barriers. You've got to learn how to unlock that. But ultimately that's like this special. Like for me, I always fired off even somebody telling me I couldn't do something. And then, you know, like, I don't know, like bad stuff that had happened in my life. Like, you know, like I lost my granddad who was like, I was really close to, and I lost my mom. But I had this kind of energy then. I almost like felt. Felt that they were with me. So when I was training or I was racing, I almost like it was like this energy that I could focus on that they was with me. We're all going to get like this pain barrier, but it's how you, you're able to push through that but when the chips are like really down. But yeah, there was a lady that.

She had a brain operation and it really affected her short term memory and suddenly she went from being a good runner to being one of the top ultra runners and just literally nailing out, you know, when it started winning all these different ultramarathons because essentially her brain had lost its ability to remember what it had just done and how much pain it should be in. And so it was kind of, you know, and I think that's. If you read, you know, Alex Hutchinson's Endure book, then you kind of.

Oh, yeah, no, I've got. I've just brought that. Yeah, it's a really good verse. Okay. I love all that kind of stuff. Yeah, no, it is. I kind of thrive off. I kind of like the pain even now it's mad, you know, like, you know, like training sessions. I just get a massive bus from him. I'd always like to think I'll train that way.

That's the masochist in you coming out.

Yeah.

So with your. You obviously had loads of amazing sporting achievements in your own career. What's the one high. Is there one particular highlight you think that was? Of my own career. That was the thing that really kind.

Of sat, like, I just think, like, for me, it was almost like one year. It was like 20, 2014. I just got these, like, these. It wasn't like there wasn't an identifying race. I kind of built up to them. And I was so fortunate that it's like that year, like, I was. It was almost every race felt like it was unbelievable. You know, I think, like, finally winning, like, one of the biggest things that I was always trying to be, like, it's like this national 25 mile championship called the Blue Ribbon of cycling. I think, like, you know, so many near miss, but finally winning, that was. I just remember thinking, this is it. I've done it. You know what I mean? It was like, it didn't change my career, but to me, it meant so much. But that year was just like, I've just never experienced anything like it. It was phenomenal. And. But I've had one year in my career when I was bulletproof, you know, But I even remember that year I punched and I literally punched where a Marshall was with a wheel. Like, how lucky was that? Never happens, does it? Would never happen.

So somebody was smiling on you at that point. And what would be your greatest highlight so far of your coaching career? Maybe that's a tough thing to ask.

Yeah, no, it is. I would say that I remember them like when I was. It would have been like Tim, Don breaking the Iron man world record, you know, because we. We've been through so much to get to that point. And I remember, you know, I remember meeting Tim for the first time, and I just had this connection with him. It was. And it's a very special connection. You know, like, you don't meet many people in your life where you just know that you're going to be able to do something good with this person and you're gonna get hell. And it was kind of that moment, it was phenomenal, you know, like, finally seeing this Olympian and this guy that has won all this, you know, like breaking the Iron man world record and phenomenal. And I remember just saying to myself, because I was struggling at that point, I wanted to do triathlon, but I couldn't. I was just struggling to commit the time. I just remember thinking, well, this is it. Now we've done it. You know, like, I can. I can chill out and go back to just doing what I want to do, because I didn't know I needed to do a triathlon to ultimately learn from the sport. But, yeah, when he broke that, it was phenomenal. But you Know, and then we obviously trained into going into Kona and he was in even better form than that. But I would say that that was kind of a highlight of the start of the, you know, world class level. That was kind of start the journey. Amazing. Phenomenal. Really amazing.

And what do you, what's your big goal that you're working towards at the moment?

What's next? There's always so many ultimately like what we, what we're trying to do as a business is like I just want to have this facility that we're able to, you know, like we do like online bike. Sorry we do like in house bike, fit in. I just want to have a facility where we're able to, you know, like we can look after any problem athletes have got from strength and conditioning to, you know, like mindfulness. That's kind of what I'm trying to achieve with what we're doing at the minute. You know, like just pushing the business so that we can, you know, look after our athletes, look out after people that want to find this next level of performance. That's kind of, that's, that's my mission now really. And then just trying to, I just, I don't know, I'm always driven, like creating new stuff, trying to do stuff that nobody else has done. And you know, we're doing loads of stuff at the minute kind of working on like, you know, like how do we make people more efficient, you know, and this, yeah, we almost like the technology is not quite at the, the level we need it to be at, but we kind of, we know that there's a lot of round like obviously like going quick is how you produce power at the pedal stroke. So you know, like training like power meters aren't quite there yet. There's like things like the Watt bike looks at like pedal effectiveness. So what we're trying to achieve is if you can imagine that you can, you know, like there's always going to be a trade off between power and aerodynamics. If you can like gel the two, so you've got this formula and you found it, then you're going to be way ahead of everybody else. So it's kind of, that's where from a cycling point anyway. But ultimately for triathlon like the less energy, the more efficient and you're going to run quicker. So.

And what does, what does? So obviously you coach some of the best in the sport.

What does.

But you also coach right down to sort of, you know, amateurs.

Oh yeah, absolutely. You know, well, I've got people that are in the 70s. It's amazing, you know, you just profile, you know, like, how. What's my. My way of looking at training is like, I look at the individual. There's not a formula, there's all these sessions that we create, but it's kind of. You got to look at the. The individual and what they're trying to achieve, and then you adapt the training accordingly. And everybody's going to have, like, different strengths and weaknesses, but also mentally what they can take as well, you know, so. But I get a massive buzz, you know, it's like this lady that's in the 70s and like, she's setting power PBS that, you know, is unbelievable that, like, you know, like 10 years she hasn't done numbers like this. We had another guy, like last year, he was 60 and he won like a national championship medal. He was part of our team and he won a national championship medal. What better feeling as a coach is there than that? And I think that's the biggest. I suppose that's the hardest part that people look at. I don't know, like. Well, Matt Bottrally does this with the pros, but as a company, we. Yeah, the success that you're seeing is like, a lot of these athletes, they've been struggling for years, you know, and we've just helped them and guided. And it takes like a year or two, but then you start seeing these results filter, filter into the sport. So.

And how much of that is remote for somebody that's kind of at the amateur level? How much of that is remote and how much of it is not, and how much of it is coming to you?

90% of what we do is remote coaching. You know, like, initially we have like a consultation with each individual athlete and generally. But, you know, like, we coach like all over the world, so some of the people we, you know, like, we'll catch up with them on, say if it's me coaching them, then obviously I'm catching up with them. You know, we're always commenting on the rides daily and then I'll catch up with them once a month to twice. So it just depends where they are with their training. But kind of when with remote coaching, it's generally, you know, we feedback to the athlete every day and then we're obviously catching up. It's so easy to catch up with people now, you know, like things like Zoom, Skype, WhatsApp, and generally.

Yeah, and the data is there from things like training peaks as well. And I'm assuming use things like that, so.

Oh, absolutely. Like. But we're like, people don't come. Like, if people that come to us for coaching, like, if you don't train, we'll be on at you. Do you know what I mean? We're not here to. We are here to help you to perform. And I know that that's one of the biggest mistakes. And I see all the time with coaching that athletes pay for this service. But then, you know, the coaches like loading and training day after day, week after week, and they're not even commenting on it. So how do you know how they're feeling? But if people don't load sessions, we're like, whoa, you need to download that. It's like this green box way of coaching that, you know, trying to get the green boxes. And the thing is with it all is it's like, with the coaching that, you know, like that we're doing, if something happens in a day, then we'll change it, you know, because sometimes you know what it's like, especially at the minute, like the stresses of the world. But if you've got like this high, intense interval session, then you might not hit it, you know, there's no point. If you've had a stressful day, you've got to say to your coach, like, that isn't going to happen. And then we adapt it, or if you get ill, you get sick, we can just adapt the training accordingly.

So I think that's also the key to having a coach is kind of. It's all very well using a cookie cutter approach to follow, but actually that doesn't deal with real life, does it? So having a coach that can kind of build around that is, I can imagine being really important.

Yeah. And just feeding back. So, you know, I don't coach myself because I want someone to tell me a good job, you know, like, I love that, you know, like, it's accountability, isn't it? It's like in, you know, whether it's work or, you know, like reward or it's kind of, we've got this accountability. And I think if you've got that. So it's like, you know, like, if you've got a job, you've got to be there at a certain amount of time and then you go through the day, then that's the biggest thing, you know, like, especially how things are going to probably change over this next year. People are going to, you know, if people are working remotely, and I struggled with this initially, was like, you, you're productive because you've got structure. And I would say for a lot of people that you've almost. You need to build that into your daily. Yeah, you've got to build that into your daily. So it's like, you know, like daily programming and then you'll get the most out of yourself. So it's almost like if you, you know, like just don't make things up. Say if you train it and kind of pre plan the week, if something changes, that's you can adapt it but kind of set yourself goals that you're trying to achieve. Because if you just go, oh well, I'm gonna ride for an hour or I'm gonna swim for an hour maybe, you know, you can miss a lot of that. So we'd just say that and you know, like what's the art is kind of consistency is key. You know, if you can have consistency then you, yeah, you'll get better.

Brilliant and very conscious of your time and you've been incredibly generous with your time.

So.

One last question though. Is, is there. We touched on books earlier on. Is there a book you particularly love? A book you particularly often recommend or give away?

I just love, I'm not really like books wise. I just like, I love like any kind of documentary, you know, like I love reading this kind of documentary. I love documentaries. But I also kind of autobiographies, you know, like, and just understanding like the bits I always tune in is like how do they work as an athlete, what drives them? You know, that's what I love. All that kind of stuff, you know, like autobiographies, that's any kind of stuff that I read really.

And is there a particular one that you thought. I mean obviously you already mentioned the Michael Jordan documentary.

It's kind. Yeah, it's kind of like that Jordan documentary. I've loved that and I think that if somebody, you know, people are going to watch something then they should watch it because it's like you can see like what it really takes to become, you know, I, you know how dedicated he was to become the best he could be. And that's, it's that kind of stuff that I love to watch is. Yeah, I think that's the thing that stands out. Definitely the thing that stands out at the minute. You know, it's like. Yeah. Really gets into your head. Brilliant.

Well, I check that out and I just want to finish off because as I was reading your bio, the last bit really got me and I thought it'd be worth sharing this with other people. So it said that you will have to suffer but with the support around you from dedicated team, you Will achieve your goals. Coaching has never been just a job to me. It's my passion to see others succeed. Failure is not an option. And I thought that, you know, I was reading it, going, I've read that, and I'm going to have to check out more about your coaching because I thought, you know, it just summed up everything for me, so.

But, yeah, no, but that's kind of. That was my mission when I started this up. Like, it wasn't until I found the right people that I had to. I had to go all through these failings and not understanding what I was ever doing. And then I was like, when I started coaching, I thought, right, I'm on a mission now to try. You know, not everybody's going to abide by this. Some people, I would say that realistically, there's not many people that, you know, there's probably two that I would say all the time. They've done this, like, coached hundreds of athletes now that they're kind of, you know, like, there's no magic wand with all of this. Like, you've got to want to do the training. And if you want to do the training and you're driven, then we're gonna help you succeed. You know, we'll do everything that we can. And if you haven't got, you know, I'm not. If I haven't got an answer, I won't. I won't make it up. I'll go and find it, or we'll get somebody in that can do, you know, and that's just my approach. I'm just driven by. It's one. I just remember all those drive zones when I'd not achieved what I wanted to achieve. And it made me feel so bad. But then when I got it, it was so powerful. When I finally achieved what I wanted to do, I never wanted to let it go. And I want people to kind of. Everybody can just have, like, that one day, or they can have consistent days like that. It's amazing. And there's nothing better as a coach then, you know, that person ringing you up and saying that it achieved what they set out to do. And that doesn't have to be, you know, like, winning a world title can be setting a PB or whatever that is, time, distance, or you've achieved something, weight loss. Do you know what I mean? Fantastic.

I think it's been absolutely brilliant and it's an inspiring story and amazing to see what you've created in your performance coaching business. So a huge thank you for being part of the Tribathlon podcast. And yeah, I wish you every success going forward, Matt.

I'm sure you'll agree that what Matt doesn't know about cycling is probably not worth knowing. A phenomenal guy with so much brilliant, brilliant advice in there on how we can improve our cycling. If you want to find out more about Matt, you can go to Matt Bottrill. Bottrill is spelled B O double T R I double l. So that's mattbotrill performancecoaching.com I'll put it in the show notes as well. You go To Matt Bottrill PerformanceCoaching.com, you can find out all about his coaching business, his performance bike fit, which I'm going to book myself on for triathlon training plans, all of those sorts of things. So go and check that out. But I hope you were able to learn some stuff from that conversation. I certainly took a huge amount from it. So yeah, go check it out@mapbottrill performance coaching.com and I know that with his help you can it massively improve your your cycling. Don't forget to share photos on Instagram of While you're out training using Tribeathlon. I want to see you out there with your tribe, whether you're cycling, swimming, running or whatever you're doing. Just tag us with tribeathlon and we'll be looking out for those photos.

Foreign.

This podcast was brought to you by Ember, the makers of delicious British biltong, beef jerky and charcuterie. As I said, I particularly love the garlic and rosemary flavored one and the chili rub Biltong. And if you use the discount code protein25 and that's protein all in capitals protein25 then you'll get a nice discount off your first purchase at Ember. So enjoy the Build Hole. Don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe.