Desert Racing and Relationships with Elisabet Barnes

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding.

And I'm claire fudge and this is.

The tribe athlon podcast.

So sometimes people have a lot of digestive issues when they run in the heat, but they don't make the connection that it is because of the heat. So you can actually prepare for that in advance.

That was Elizabeth Barnes and this episode is Desert Racing and Relationships. Hey, Claire, how you doing?

Yes, good, thank you. How are you?

I am good, thank you. Good. I am. I am somewhat frazzled by cycling in the absolutely Scorchio heat this morning in Chicago. We've got like weather alerts going on left, right and center for a hurricane last night and now it's heat alerts are popping up on my phone from. From the US Government.

But.

So I am. I'm drinking my electrolytes and recovering sensibly. But yeah, I am.

Environmental training. Aren't you like getting training in the heat?

Yes, that's what I was thinking, actually. I was thinking that this is. This is definitely good heat training, but how are you? You raced at the weekend. Tell me all about it.

I still don't. On the second day is worse. Getting downstairs, I'm finding. Yeah, race to very course at the weekend. I actually loved it, actually. It was really, really, really enjoyed the race.

Tell everyone what race. What your race you were doing.

I did 70.3. Staffordshire in the UK. Also entered for Poland the same weekend. So for any of you that have got a million races that have been pulled over from the year before, yeah, this was one of those weekends.

I obviously didn't do both.

I don't think anyone's got as many races deferred and rolled over as you have, Claire.

I think that. Well, yeah, maybe they're coming to an end, but yeah, it was, it was certainly. It was an interesting day and we actually had some really nice weather, so it was really good. But huge, like a huge field. And I don't. I don't really race 70.3 distance, not very much, but I seem to have quite a few of those races on. So for me, I had no idea he was racing the field. I don't know my age group. Um, yeah, huge age group. The biggest age group I've raced in, probably. Um, but great, like, really good atmosphere. I would say that, like, I didn't know really what to expect. Um, it was a nightmare with transitions, but, like split transitions. But other than that, it was really lovely, really friendly and yeah, great, great, great day.

Excellent. And did you race as well as you hoped to?

Well, yeah, in my Head in my head, I was in the top three all day. Um, like, to be fair to myself, you know, coming back from COVID three weeks ago, I actually am feeling really fit and really healthy. So that, you know, following that protocol, um, and again, for anyone that has got Covid, I, you know, just take your time to recover because that pays dividends. And actually doing that, I had a really good race and I did feel. I felt really good. Um, but, yeah, I was seventh, having thought I was in the top three. So I had the conversation in my head. I can't possibly go to Utah and Kona, but that's fine. That's out the question.

Okay.

The decision made. Yeah. Really? Yeah. The girls in my age group were particularly good, so should have gone to Poland, I think.

But.

But so this is an interesting point, isn't it, because you were really happy with the way you were racing and your own time until you compared it to anybody else's. So, yeah, isn't comparison the. The route to unhappiness or something like that? Is that. What were your. What were your thoughts around that?

So psychologically, because I'm extremely competitive, unless. Unless I'm at the top, I'm not happy. So that is difficult. But actually I did. I actually, from a psychological perspective, I actually think I'm in a really good place with it because I had a fantastic run. And my run is usually something that I really struggle with psychological. From a psychological perspective. But I have been working on that and actually I had a really good run and I felt like I was coming in in the top three. And I think actually you can only race these there on the day, at.

The end of the day.

But I'm actually, I'm, you know, I'm happy. I'm happy because I'm healthy as well. And I think that's really important. You know, the fact that having had Covid three weeks ago, the fact that I can go out and race and still put out a good race is for me is fantastic.

That is a really good point because Kerry Sutton has just sent me somebody that we need to try and get on the podcast. Actually, former ultra runner has gone out into the jungle and worked with tribe like Shane Benzi kind of looking at, you know, really, really. But he was a very top runner and he's had long. Covid. He got Covid right at the start and two years later, he still struggling to even climb the stairs, let alone run. Um, so, you know, you're absolutely right. You can count your blessings that you're. You're racing as well as you are as quickly after Covid as you are. So.

And you know, at the end of the day you can only. You can only race your best and you can only race who turns up at the race as well. And this is one thing that I always say. But on that point, another really interesting fact that I just want to bring up or point for discussion is we've talked before, haven't we, about like collecting data. What do you do with the data? Are we actually too led by all these kind of gadgets that we have? And we've talked about, you know, the aura ring that you have and you know, our Garmin watches. What do they tell us about sleep? And actually on race day for some unknown reason, because it never happens in training, of course my power meter didn't pick up on my Garmin, so I could choose to panic on a hilly course. It's not ideal not to have that information in front of me. But actually going off feel and actually being intuitive about what you're doing and trusting yourself and your body and knowing your body really well, I think is actually invaluable. And that's one of the things that actually I often say to athletes as well that when we talk about food, when people are weighing things out or using apps to track things, actually be intuitive, go with your hunger, go with if you do want to eat, if you don't want to eat, whether I should have some more, whether I don't need any more. Um, so that, that for me actually was actually a really good race because I didn't go. I don't think I went.

Well, I've got no idea. Actually.

I don't think I'd super crazy on the bike. Um, I probably went a bit under what I should. But the fact that I knew what probably what those. What's felt like, I think I was around about where I should have been on the bike, albeit maybe 10 minutes slower.

But it is actually a good point.

I mean I, I am not as strict when I'm racing as, as you are and particularly when I'm training about hitting power levels, which I know I should be more. But it is a good point to, to train without the data in front of you sometimes so that you can then assess and go right, okay, actually, you know, I did go slightly under or actually that's what it. You know. And in fact, Brett, Brett Sutton was famous for getting his athletes to train on feel a lot more, wasn't he?

And I, I honestly, like, I could have panicked about It. And I did spend a little bit of time trying to, like, reconnect and stuff. And actually I thought, you know what? I. I can do this. I do know what it feels like to push too hard and I do know what it feels like to probably be coasting. So I just had to go with it. Say, good. That to me, I think was. It was a really good weekend of learning and just coming out and thinking, yeah, I'm healthy enough to race. And that is brilliant. So brilliant.

And. And so to move on to a different subject, did you see the sub 7 and the sub 8?

Yes, I did. I was so, like, interested as well to kind of follow what happened. It was really interesting. I didn't quite know how they do it, but actually when I. When I was watching it, I was like, yeah, actually this is how they were going to do it in terms of, you know, drafting and having teams around them. It was really fun as well. It was really fun to watch.

It was. I thought it was great race.

I thought.

I loved the way the format in the. In that you'd got, you know, Joe against Kristen and Kat against Nicola. And so that made it really interesting as opposed to just, I mean, like with Kipchoge, I mean, that was fascinating as he got towards the end, but for the majority of the two hours it was like, well, you know, it's not that interesting. Whereas the racing element. And I think also that the racing element probably brought more out of them than. Than where Elliot Kipchoge was just on his own. But I did think it was. I mean, it's brilliant that Joe Skipper could step in with something like 10 notice, wasn't it? I mean, that's absolutely incredible. And he really. He nailed the bike, didn't he? He did incredibly well on the bike. And no carry on, I was just gonna say. But you know, and you'd got. With Kristen's bike, you got Matt Bottrill in the. In the setup. In fact, I'm gonna try and get Matt back on the. On another podcast.

Oh, yeah, No, I was thinking just.

To chat with him about that because I think that's. That that will be really interesting to kind of understand what they were doing behind the scenes there. But the. But the best bit has to be Nicola passing Cat and then Cat passing Nicola. That to me was the. I mean, that she looked like she'd gone and then she just absolutely stepped it up and it was brilliant.

Yeah. And I think that's the kind of bit, as you talked about that bit of racing that When I say bit like two of them racing against each other I think that that probably was the key to it as well, wasn't it? And also fascinating and interesting for people watching.

I think so. I mean I was amazed that there wasn't more people watching it actually I think live. When I was watching it live it was saying something like 27,000 people watching on Facebook Live. But I mean you think how many people watched Kipchoge do is sub to? I mean I know it's not as prominent a thing but it was also talked about.

It was talked about for a long time, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah it was and of course it had tried before and failed so. And I get that, that, that you know it's a bigger sport but I was just surprised that there wasn't more people watching it live than, than there were. But no, I thought it was absolutely amazing and to, to knock that much time off off boat. I mean there was never any doubt that they were going to come in under seven after, after sort of three quarters of the way through the bike was there? I mean Joe Skipper called that his predicted his bike time and everyone was like no, no chance. That's obscene. And then he hit, he hit it and some didn't he. It was incredible.

But it'd be interesting now, you know like any record. And I know it's not, it's not the same as in a Ironman race scenario but all that distance of scenario. But it will be interesting now that those times have been set. What happens.

Yeah but yes you're right and I said the same about the sub 2 but we've not had a sub 2 marathon since, have we? But yeah, I think you're right. I have to admit though I didn't like Kristen's bike. That is the ugliest dry bike I have.

I think I've ever seen a bad job though.

No, I mean it clearly worked. It looked like an electric bike. I mean maybe that's why he did.

So maybe it was.

Yeah. Excellent.

Right, well let's. That that leads us nicely into the interview with Elizabeth Barnes. So let's dive into that next. 33 Fuel Produce Award winning natural sports nutrition and everything they do is led by their fuel loss fee for performance health and for a fitter future. 33 Fuel's awesome products have been fueling triathletes since 2012 as well as many of the world's best athletes from other sports like the England football team, Tour de France winners and triathlon world champs including four times Ironman world champ Chrissie Wellington who's been using 33 fuel for years. I personally love their price. I particularly love their protein shake. I think it's delicious but it's also not full of a load of junk. I love their meal replacement which is kind of brilliant for pre or post workout recovery. I love their Chia gels actually they work really well for me, but especially I love their energy bars and their protein bars. They feel like a protein proper treat to eat as well as being packed full of real amazing goodness. So find out more about 33 fuel.com and if you use the code tribeathlon or click the link in the show notes, you'll get a very extra special discount on your order. Having won races like Marathon de Sables, the Amman Desert Marathon and the Big Red Run in Australia whilst also setting multiple course records, Elizabeth Barnes was an accomplished ultra runner by anyone's standards. But why, having grown up in Scandinavia, has she achieved all of her success in the desert? Since retiring from ultra running during COVID in addition to her ultra coaching, she's qualified as a sexologist and is aiming to help people transform their relationships and upgrade their sex lives. So Claire and I wanted to get to the bottom of the secrets to succeeding in desert races. Shaving the toothbrush as it's termed in ultrarunning, as well as how to make a living from running and also how endurance sport can affect our relationships. So I know you're going to really take loads out of this interview, particularly if you're ever looking to race in the desert, like whether it's marathon decables or something else like that, then Elizabeth has got loads of tips on succeeding in those multi day races. So I know you're going to really enjoy this interview with Elizabeth Barnes. So Elizabeth, welcome to the tribeathlon podcast. I'm really, really looking forward to chatting to you about all things ultra running and a few different topics as well. Obviously we've got Claire here as well to help me negotiate what can be some interest topics of conversation, so but I always like to kick things off by understanding a little bit more about your story. So how did you get into running and then how did you find your way into ultra running, which is where you really had your greatest successes I think, isn't it? So tell us all about how it all started.

Yeah, well first let me say thank you for getting on the podcast. It's a pleasure to be here. How did I get into running? Well, I suppose it's a long time ago, so I started running in my teens Mostly as a way to sort of just keep fit. And I discovered that I enjoyed sort of longer distances. And at that time, that was half marathon and marathons. And I ran my first marathon in 2002 in Stockholm, and that sort of made me want to do more of that. So I. I kept running marathons and just for fun because I. I had a demanding work. So I. I started off the university. I started to work as a management consultant for Accenture. Long working hours. You know, you dedicate most of your life to work, and it was great, but. But there wasn't like that much time for. For other things. But so I was running. And what happened? What brought me into ultra running?

Actually, before you come on to that, just to give people a bit of reference, what sort of times were you doing in those. In those marathons? Maybe your first time and your. And as fast as you got as a marathon runner?

Oh, yeah. So my first marathon was 407. And then before I started doing ultramarathons, I was down to about 3:10, I think, or maybe 308, something like that. And then I did a 259. But that was. And that was in 2015 after I came back from marathon the Sable.

Okay. Wow, Fantastic.

But that's the fastest marathon I've done. I know that I was faster in 2017, but I never ran a marathon, so.

But you got the sub three.

Yeah, I did. Narrowly.

Which must have been. I'm guessing that that was a mental goal somewhere along the line.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. You know, it's. It's funny how it means so much, how it makes such a difference, you know, 2:59.59 or 3, like 001, you know, but yeah, it does. Awesome. Awesome.

And so, yeah. So how did you then migrate from marathon running into ultra running?

Yeah, so. So I think I had been sort of pondering, I think, like, you know, running faster or running further, because there comes a point when you run enough marathons, I think you start to wonder what else you can do, because a marathon is a marathon. It's not that interesting, you know, but. But what really sort of accelerated it was that my father passed away in 2010. Um, and it was like, really, really sudden. He wasn't expected, you know, he was 68 and he, you know, he wasn't like, ill as such. And that, I think, made me reflect a lot on life, the meaning of life, you know, I guess I was faced very directly with this existential threat that is death, you know, and. And I questioned everything. I was like, what's the meaning of life? What's the meaning of what I'm doing? Am I making the right choices in my life? And I, it was a hard time. I sort of started to search for a bigger meaning and, and I'm not sure exactly how it happened, but I came, I came across this marathon, the Sable documentary with James Cracknell. So I think he did it in 2010. So it was a little bit later I came across that and I was like, I felt, I just felt something. I felt like, yeah, this is, this is maybe what I have been looking for, you know, like, to run 250 km across the Sahara. And, you know, the documentary is very dramatic. Like, it's like he nearly dies, you know, like. And so I was like, yeah, perfect. And so that's how it started. So I signed up myself. I signed up my husband, now my ex husband, my husband at the time. And in training for that, I started to run ultramarathons. So I actually did my first ultramarathon in 2011, and it was a 50k race and it was in Stockholm. I lived in the UK then, but I traveled to Stockholm to do it and it went quite well. Um, I finished fourth, um, and had a great time. And then I did, after that, I did 50 miles, and then I did a hundred K and then I did the marathon disable for the first time in 2012.

And in that first marathon disable, how did you get on?

I, I, I did. What did I do? I, I finished 15th woman and like, hundred. And I can't remember. 150, 160. I don't know. Some, some, you know, like a sort of a decent need kind of thing. Yeah, my backpack was huge.

Well, I think that's something we need to talk about. I think we need to come, need to come back to, to that.

I think I was taking photos of the camel and, you know. Yeah.

You became renowned for your success in deserts, really, didn't you became, you know, you. I think you're great. Would you say your greatest successes were all on desert? Desert races?

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's fair to say.

So, so when, when, when did you find. So what was it about that first mds, that kind of. Because you, you were moving, you know, originally from a cold country and that. So that doesn't seem like an obvious place to race. So what was it about those desert races that kind of seemed to work well for you? And tell us within that, tell us a little bit about your successes in the Desert.

I mean, before my first marathon, the sublime, I was absolutely petrified. You know, I was so scared of the heat I had no idea how I would cope with it. I did one heat acclimation session which was probably more informative than, you know, providing any kind of adaptation to speak of, but I still seemed to cope quite well in the race and it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. So I really enjoyed it. And so I guess that gave me confidence that I could do it again. And I have reflected on it sort of later. What is it that makes me good at running in the desert? Because why would I be good at that? You know, I have grown up in Scandinavia, it's cold and maybe it's just genetics. I mean it could be I do sweat quite easily, I sweat a lot and that's good in the heat. And maybe I have been adapted since an early age because I've spent a lot of time in saunas.

Therein is your heat training?

Yeah, I mean we have, my family, we have a summer house in the archipelago of Stockholm and we have this wood fired sauna there. And whenever we were there, which was quite a lot like the whole summers when I was little, you know, we did, we did, yeah, go in the sauna quite often and I don't know if that has anything to do with it or if it's just genetics, but. But in any case, they seem to be quite good at handling the heat. And my first, my first MDS in 2012 is sort of, it made me want to do it again. I thought they could do better. At the same time, it was such a fantastic memory that I was worried about going back again because I thought how could anything become better than this? Maybe I would ruin the memory by going back and doing it again. But I did decide to go back and that was 2015 and I did more structured training and the way I was able to do that was I changed my job. Not that because of the training, that's not it, but it's sort of, it helped. So I was still working in London but I switched to another company and I didn't have to travel as much. I had an internal role, the working hours were less demanding and so at this time I was also building up a business on the side, but together with my ex husband. But somehow we sort of, we managed to make this work and I was able to put in a few months of very consistent training. And I think consistency is like the most important thing with training. And I don't suppose That I had a great belief in myself. You know, I didn't think that I would win it, but I. I did. I did set a few course records in early 2015 leading up to that race. And so everybody was like, oh, you're gonna go to the mns. You're gonna win it? And I was like, no, but I was kind of hoping for, like, maybe a top five, you know, of the women. But. But, yeah, then I won every stage of that race, and that's what sort of. I suppose that was, like, the start of my ultra running career. Yeah.

Amazing. And so what. What do you think was the highlight of your ultra running career? Both from a achievement point of view, but also perhaps from a racing environment as well.

So I definitely think that that was. Well, I mean, you can look at it in different ways, but going back to Maritime de Sable and winning it for a second time, for me, that was like, confirmation that it wasn't just, you know, luck, because it felt a bit like that in 2015. Like, you know, oh, what just happened here? Like, it was some kind of accident. But I think in 2015, I proved that it wasn't an accident. You know, it was a very competitive race, and I had trained and prepared meticulously, and I went there with the mindset that I was. That I wanted to win. And I don't know really what I could have done better in my preparations. And so. And the race kind of confirmed that. So I think that's. That's a highlight. At the same time, I was doing what I'm good at, which is running in the desert, and then you should do what you're good at. But I have also challenged myself to do things I'm not so good at, which is, you know, like running in the mountains. And so from that perspective, I really enjoyed doing the Everest Trail race in Nepal because it's something that, you know, was way out of my comfort zone, and I haven't historically been very good at altitude, and I still managed to do really well in that race. And so. And I really loved that, like, the environment and the people and, you know, everything about Nepal is just fantastic. So that's also a highlight.

Claire and I were chatting to Kerry about the.

The.

The race through Nepal to Everest Base Camp. Tell us a little bit about that race, because Kerry, I know, Kerry Sutton, I'm talking about, for those people that haven't worked that out, was like, loved that race just from an experience point of view. And I have to. We were listening to her talking about it over A few glasses of wine after the arc 50 down in Cornwall and it was like, yeah, that's got to be a race that has got to go on the list. So tell us a little bit about what that race is like.

Well, it's not entirely self sufficient like the MDs to begin with, so you carry your gear, but you do get food. So that means you have a slightly lighter backpack, even though you, you need to have warmer equipment. And you. I can't, I can't remember. I know they have changed the course now as well, so I can't speak to like exactly where the course goes, but, but you start sort of a little bit lower, maybe like 1500, 2000 and you work your way up and you, you pass over 4,000 meters and I think the highest camp was around 3,800 meters. And you have, I mean there's a, there's a sort of, I don't know, quite typical. I don't know if you can see like typical trails or route where you have a lot of steps, a lot of rocks and you know, you meet, you see the porters, the Sherpas and you know, the kind of local animals and it's really humbling experience and people are very poor generally, but very, very, very friendly and generous and it's. Yeah, you just feel sort of grateful and like it's a privilege to be able to, to be there really. And, and the race is quite small, so it's like a family kind of thing. You know, MDS is really big and you sort of bond with your tent mates. But. But whereas trail race is a much smaller race and obviously the scenery is.

Very different, isn't it? I mean, is that part of the magic? You know, with the MDs, I would imagine. I've never done it, but imagine there's a lot of looking across deserts, whereas looking through mountains is a whole different experience.

Yeah, with the desert is. The desert is beautiful in its own way, but it's quite different to look out over this arid, vast desert landscape versus being in the mountains. For sure. Yeah, it's maybe in the mountains. I mean, it's perhaps a bit more varied and of course the mountains of the Himalayas are just incredible. So very impressive landscape.

Do you do any specific? Because obviously those races are very different environmentally. Did you do anything in particular to kind of get ready for the environment in say like heat exposure? I know you talked about saunas and growing up in saunas, but did you do any particular training for more desert based races and then anything different that you did from kind of more of those higher altitude races. Is there anything training?

Yeah, so whenever I've gone to a race in the heat, I've always prepared for that specifically. So that that could mean going and running in a heat chamber, doing hot yoga, taking hot baths, which is particularly effective if you do it after training because you've already reduced your plasma volume a bit going in the sauna, which is probably what I've done the least actually. But hot yoga, hot heat chambers and hot baths I've done. And that's something I try to do particularly in the last kind of two to three weeks before a race. And then I've noticed that the more frequently I've done such races, the more the sort of the acclimatious days in the body. So it takes less next time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's super, super important. And I think too many people neglect it. They don't think it's going to make a difference. But it actually makes an enormous difference, not only to your general sort of performance, but it actually impacts your ability to digest food, which people don't realize. So sometimes people have a lot of digestive issues when they run in the heat, but they don't make the connection that it is because of the heat. So you can actually prepare for that in advance, which is kind of not so often mentioned in relation to heat acclimation, but nevertheless important.

One of the things we've talked about in previous episodes is the. Because a previous sponsor was precision hydration, we've talked a bit about sweat testing and the amount you sweat, as well as how salty your sweat is. Do you find that? And I don't know if this is even possible, but when you do a sweat test, you find out how much you're sweating. Is it that when you do spend more time doing hot yoga and saunas and things like that, that you almost train your body to sweat more or is it a constant? And I don't know, maybe Claire can give us some insight on this as well.

So as far as I understand you, you train your body to sweat earlier so you get like a faster sweat response. So that helps the body to cool down. So what actually cools you down is the evaporation of the sweat from the body, so not the sweating itself. You know, if you're in a humid environment and you sweat a lot, you still don't get very cold because the sweat stays. But if you go in a dry environment, you can cool down in that way. But yes, you sweat, you sweat earlier. But also the body Conserves sodium. So the more acclimated you are, like the less sodium you lose through your sweat.

Period of time as well, doesn't it? So it depends on how long that race is and that adaptation to conserving a bit more sodium. I mean, your body's just amazing, isn't it? All the process as it has to be able to try and try and sort you out.

So, but it's interesting and it's, it's clearly very important to give it advanced warning of all of the chaos you're about to throw at it. So if you can get it acclimatized and then it clearly makes a big difference.

Yeah, makes it makes a huge, makes a huge difference. I mean, I think it's, especially for a race like the Marathon de Sable, you know, it's so expensive. A lot of people spend, you know, a year or more preparing for it. And then to leave something like that to chance and actually use the race to acclimatize, I mean, it's just such a waste, I think, of, of good preparation that you could do. And you asked about altitudes.

Yeah. What did you do for that? To sort of carry yourself to that environment.

Yeah. So with altitude, you know, with heat you can acclimatize relatively quickly. I mean, this research showing that, you know, even just a five day protocol can prepare you for the heat, but altitude, it doesn't work like that. Takes a lot longer for the body to adapt. And so for the Everest Trail race, I think I had about 10 weeks of altitude before that. And so I had about five weeks in Tenerife in the summer. So Tenerife, for those who haven't been there, it's, it's really great for altitude training because you have the Teiden national park and it's a big like plateau that sits at about 2000 meters of elevation. So it's really, really perfect because, you know, you can go there almost any time of year and there might be a little bit of snow on Ted in the winter, but you know, you can be there. And so I think it's very accessible. And then I did a race in Colorado, the Trans Rockies, which was also quite high. So I spent a couple of weeks in leadville at about 3,000 meters before that race and then I did the race and then I had another couple of weeks in Tenerife in October and then I went to Everest trailer race in November. So actually when I, and I appreciate, like most people, people can't actually do these things. So I was lucky that I was able to do all of it. And I think I also did a few sessions at the altitude center in London. You can basically go into an altitude chamber and you can run a treadmill or sit in a little pot and breathe through a mask, stuff like that. So all in all, I did a lot and it really worked. I felt reasonably comfortable, even like climbing up the pikey peak, which is like 4,000 something.

So fantastic. That's really good. You mentioned at the start when we of talking about MDs, that you had a huge pack that first time. Now I think the term in ultra running is shaving the toothbrush, isn't it? So you just got to try and find every way possible of kind of getting the pack as light as possible. When you're coaching athletes nowadays, do you, what tips do you give them around, you know, packing? Because I know a friend of mine just did MDS for the first time this year. You know, he's been, he's like the person you just described. He'd not been doing any ultra running and he trained exclusively for mds and he didn't take anything like enough food because he was really worried about pack weight and it actually, that nearly cost him. So how. What advice do you give athletes or around packing?

Well, I mean, you have to really, you have to pack light. I mean, and it's easy to say that, But I, for MDs, I do. I usually have done the last couple of years like a workshop and like talk about kit for three hours and because there really is so much that you can talk about in terms of kit and packing light. So I think, I mean, now with social media, you know, it's so easy to find information. Sometimes there's too much information out there. But looking at what people have packed previously and what their pack weighed, I think is important. And it's important that you sort of take advice from someone who's a bit scared, similar to yourself, I think, you know, not like, yeah, look at who you're taking advice from, you know, and their experience and their race ambitions. But for MDs, I usually say that it's not, it's not difficult to get your pack down to the minimum weight, which is six and a half kilos. It's really not difficult. And I don't think that anybody needs to carry more than 8 kilos unless you have very unusual requirements for some reason, you know, that you need to carry some equipment or some medication or something. But otherwise it's not difficult. Everybody should be able to go with less than 8 kilos, no matter their size.

Where do people find out more about your work? Because that sounds like as and when I sign up for my Desert Ultra, which is a definite when, not if. Where do I find your workshop? That helps me get that get down to six and a half kilos.

Yeah. So at the moment it's not pre recorded, it's only live. And so I haven't set the date for the next one but I usually announce it on my social medias. If, if people follow Ultra Ultra Coach on Instagram for example, or my Facebook page, Ultra Coach or go to my website Ultra Coach, that's where it's going to be announced.

Brilliant. Well that sounds, that sounds really useful. I will definitely be needing that in due course now.

It still seems quite a lot though, doesn't it? 6 kg on my back seems like it would be a lot still.

Yeah, but so, so actually it's not, it's not that bad when you get used to it. That's why it's also really important to train with your backpack. And also it can be a good idea to, to think about your posture when you run. Maybe you want to take help from someone like Shane Benzi who's very good at, at movement coaching and he helped me before MDS 2017. And so I came to the race with I think a much better posture than I would have had otherwise. You can actually see that in some of the photos from the race, how I run. So I think that works really well because it means that the, the, if the pack feels like it weighs less.

Yeah, that's pretty.

Yeah.

Shane's been on the podcast as well. Shane's fantastic, isn't he?

Yeah, yeah.

I can, I can see how that would make a massive. Because I suppose, yeah, your posture makes a massive difference to how much weight is really you're really carrying as opposed to kind of almost letting gravity pull you forward.

Yeah. And, and also the food, you know, the food takes up a lot of weight and people might not realize it, but I, you know, it's important to not skimp on the food because you need the calories at the same time. You know, not of course overload with food. But for an example, if my pack weighs six and a half kilos, that would be like 4.2, 4.3 kilos of food and the rest would be equipment. So the equipment is a smaller part of it. And what's good about that is that the food, you eat it. Right. So every day your pack weight goes down with 6, 700 grams. Whereas if you distribute your weight differently, that Weight is not going to go down as much.

Sounds like a good reason to have a feast on the first couple of nights as well, but. Yeah, but then at risk of running out like my mate did. Now, one of the things I picked up from listening to you on a podcast is that you ended up giving up the corporate life to make a living purely from running. Tell me a little bit about that. How does that. How do people. How did you make a living from running?

Yeah, so it was a gradual transition, first of all. So I didn't just resign and sort of hope for the best. I. I made sure that I. I had some income from running before I resigned. And so I. I suppose the first thing I did was when I won the MDS in 2015, that was like my springboard. And I could have chosen to not make anything from that. You know, I could have chosen to not do anything about it. So a lot of people who, who compete and do well, they still keep their day job and they. They don't necessarily want to make a career out of running, but I wanted to do that, so. So I decided to just sort of see if I could do that and to basically jump on the opportunity. And so. So that was like a conscious decision that, okay, I'm going to try and make something from this. And then I got a sponsor, so Raylight, and I also got a shoe sponsor in hockey, but it was like the sponsorship from Raylight, which provided me with something financially that gave me like this kind of lifeline that I could have, you know, and so that was one thing. And then I also, because I was already a running coach before I started to win these races, I was a running coach in the local club and I had a qualification from UK athletics, so I just sort of built on that. And so with. With the coaching and the sponsorship, and I also was building up a running shop from pretty much from the ground up, also with my ex husband with those kind of three elements. Even though the running shop, in fairness, consumed more money than it gave back, at that point at least I was able to eventually resign. And so I did a lot of things in parallel for a few years, which was very, very, very hard. But I knew that I had sort of a destination, you know, I had a goal with it, so I tried to persevere. And then I. I resigned in 2016. So I actually left my job just before Marathon de Sable in 2016. And that was a very, very, very, very stressful few months leading up to that. So I was in terrible shape for that. Race, unfortunately.

So knowing what you know now, if you were to go back to that point where you were thinking about giving up work to make a living from running, is there anything you would have done differently?

Good question. No, I don't think so, actually. It's really hard to say, you know, like, what would you do differently? But you don't know what the alternative path would look like. No, it's like sliding doors, isn't it? You know, you just, you make a decision and then, you know, it takes you on a path and you don't know what the alternative would have looked like. So would I have done anything differently? No, I don't think so. But it was very, very, very hard to run a shop, like. And I think that maybe we went into that a bit, being a bit naive, you know, about how much work was actually required, how much investment was required. And so I learned a lot. Would I do it again? With what I know? No, I wouldn't do it again, but I don't regret it. Yeah.

So with. So with the. So with the shop, which is myracekit.com, isn't it? You're still involved in that, I assume, are you?

I'm not involved as such. I'm. I'm a minority shareholder.

Right.

I don't work in the business. I'm. Yeah, I'm not involved.

Okay, but with, with running or running a running shop, is that the right term? I'm not sure. That doesn't seem quite right. But having been a part of a running shop, you must have seen some really, you know, you must have seen some amazing kit come through and gone, oh, my God, this is really going to make an impact on my. On my ultra running. And you must have also seen some kit that has been the biggest kind of load of nonsense ever. Are there a couple of pieces of kit that you can think of with it within one in each of those categories?

Well, I mean, one. One piece of kit I think is really, really terrible is actually handheld bottles.

Handheld bottles?

Oh, yeah.

The ones that.

Yeah, yeah.

Why?

Why?

I know why. I don't like them. But why do you think they're a bad idea?

I think they're really bad idea because they affect your running, but you don't realize it. So. So if you go out and run and you start to look at people who might be holding a handheld bottle in one hand, you will see that they're not moving that arm in the same way as they're moving their other arm. And so it becomes.

This.

Yeah. It affects their movement and when you, you can then get stuck in that kind of pattern even if you don't actually hold the bottle. So it might be slightly better if you hold two bottles. But I wonder what it does to your running to put that weight in your, in your hands anyway. But so, but so yeah, I think that's a really, really bad thing to have a handheld bottle and especially to only have one of them.

Okay, that's, that sounds like that very, very good advice. Is there one piece of kit that you kind of think, you know, over the years that has made the biggest piece of different, the biggest difference to your ultra life?

Not as such, no, not as such really, but not that I can think of. But shoes are really, really important. You know, getting your shoes right and that can be quite, quite complicated.

And I would imagine that you're using different shoes for your desert race as you are for your, like your Everest trail. So how would you pick shoes for each of those?

Yeah, I mean, so, so, and that's, I suppose it's a, for me, I've been doing this for a long time. I don't even think about it. But, but, but yeah, beginners coming ill to ultra running, you know, might not have the same awareness of shoes or what shoes you should pick for a race. You can see people coming in in road shoes to a muddy trail race and you go like, oh wow, how did this happen? You know, and so you have to do your research for the type of terrain. And I think as you know, when you're just a road runner or like, you know, like you can maybe get away with having one pair of shoes, but when you start to run ultras and if you, especially if you mix different terrains and often ultras go over different terrains as well, I mean then you, you need to have more shoes definitely. And, and yeah, a good, a good trailer shoe or maybe sort of a good kind of all terrain type shoe is, is something to invest in if you go into ultra running. And also the sizing can become a little bit different. So for example, I could go and do a 5k race in a size smaller than I, then I run ultras in. And often you get these questions, especially for MDs. It's like, oh, oh, should I go up one size? I've heard that I should go up one size. Oh, maybe I should go up a size and a half. Which size shoe should I have? You know, and it's impossible to answer that because it depends what your reference point is. So if your reference point of a normal Size is a snug shoe that you can run 5k in. Yeah, you definitely need to go up the size, but if your reference point is a size that is quite roomy that you can run a marathon in, then maybe you don't need to go. Go up the side. So it's always about, you know, you need to. You need to understand sort of those things and how. How running a long distance can affect your feet and. Yeah.

So, okay, brilliant. And I think I heard also on a. On a podcast, I was listening to you say that you got to a point where running no longer made you happy. So tell. Tell me a little bit about where. What point that was, kind of how. How you realized that running was no longer making you happy and what you then did about it.

Yeah, so. So first of all, I mean, I think maybe. Maybe it wasn't necessarily that running wasn't making me happy, but I think something maybe changed. I have never been a person who needs to run. Some people have this need to run. They have to run every day or they go crazy. I'm not like that. I have no need to run. I have no need to run insane miles. I enjoy running, but also the getting into, you know, competitive ultra running was maybe. I mean, yeah, it was sort of intentional, but it was also a bit fun, accidental, you know, and it's quite different to run for a living and having the pressure to win races, having the pressure to please your sponsors than to run just for fun. And I think a lot of people look up to professional athletes, professional little runners, and they go, yeah, I want to be like that. Or it's so great that they can have sponsorships and this and that, but it's. It's not all that glossy surface. It's sort of quite hard sometimes, you know, to also deliver. And so it's nice. It's nice if you can just enjoy running without much pressure, I think. And I suppose that sometimes we just do things, you know, just keep on working or keep on doing what we do without really reflecting on why or whether it's still the right thing to do. And I think that's maybe what was happening. And then Covid came. And I think Covid has been actually, for me personally, it's. It's triggered some good changes, which I think sort of outside events can do. You know, like when my father died, it was different, but I think we, as humans, we tend to resist change, but when it's kind of thrown up on us, we have to do something. And so when Covid came It gave me an opportunity to reflect on what I was doing, which was still, you know, running training to do the MDs again. Definitely feeling the pressure to go back and do well again. Not entirely sure whether that's what I wanted. Feeling that actually all the training was not that great for my body. And so for me, I think it was an opportunity to step back and have sort of breathing space to think about it, because, you know, all the races were cancelled anyway. So. It took a little while to maybe accept that I sort of put my competitive running shoes on the shelf, but that's effectively what I've done.

I think it's been a. I've said, I found myself talking about this three or four times this week with just different people where they. Covid was an opportunity to just reevaluate things, wasn't it? It was kind of like, okay, so this is what I've been doing for the last five years, 10 years, 20 years, whatever it was, is this what I want to do for the next five years, 10 years, 20 years or whatever? Again, whatever the time frame is. And I don't know what it was. I mean, it's an external event that we all got. And some people have dealt with it very well. Some people hit in much more negative ways. But can either of you put your finger on why Covid caused people to reevaluate their life quite so much?

I think there's a time element to it, so a lot of people have more, while certain people have more time to think about it. I think there's that. But also kind of. Actually, Elizabeth, what you touched on right at the very beginning is, you know, kind of our lifespan and how long we've got here. And I think that, for me, I think, is maybe why people have reevaluated or a couple of the reasons, anyway.

What are your thoughts, Elizabeth? Yeah, I mean, you're. You're thrown out of your daily routine. You know, you. You can't. You can't carry on like, you know, you don't. People stopped going to work, there were lockdowns. You were forced to maybe spend much more time with, you know, your partner, family, and you maybe you discovered things about that or yourself, you know, and so much that we take for granted was just taken away from us. And I think inevitably that makes you think and reflect. And also, I think Covid created more time in people's lives. And also we were faced with. We were faced again with this, with death. I mean, a lot of people got ill, a lot of people died. Maybe Maybe people lost family, but also just on a more general basis. And then the other thing that happened was that we. Which I think is actually very, I mean, I think in a way it's been sort of a collective kind of trauma because we, we were not able to connect with other people for so long and actually we're made for connection. Like it's super important for our mental health to be able to connect with other people. And we weren't able to do that, which, which I think was really sad and I hope that people are, are coming out of that now and starting to feel better. But yeah, a lot of things that, that would, you know, cause people to reflect on their situation and what they want from life, perhaps.

I think both are really. Yeah, I think you've both made some really interesting points. And actually it makes me think of when you go for coaching or something like that, or whether when I'm doing leadership meetings for my business, it's always good to get a different perspective. You know, if you can sit in a, even if it's just a hotel meeting room as opposed to your own business meeting room, you. It's a different perspective. And I suppose Covid gave everybody time in a different perspective. And I think the death point, Elizabeth, is really in, you know, really interesting. And that, yes, people were thinking about actually if this was my time, have I done what I wanted to do? And I think this, I think it's really interesting. So based on that, you had a bit of a pivot, didn't you? And kind of have. I don't think you've left the ultra running world because I think you're still doing all of the coaching stuff, but you also have added an extra string to the bow. So tell us a bit about your, Your career pivot.

Yeah, yeah. So I'm still very much doing coaching for ultra running and actually I think perhaps not focusing so much on my own training has probably been good for the coaching in a way. But yeah, so I, I had this kind of epiphany moment in a way, I suppose during when it was just when Covid kind of started to, to hit and I, I realized that I'm in a very, very, very a good relationship. And I sort of reflected on the fact that a lot of people are quite unhappy in their relationships, but still sort of just carry on for various reasons. And so I thought that could be interesting to work with to help people improving their, the quality of their relationships, the quality of their sex lives. And, and so I decided to study sexology and Couples therapy or relationship therapy as it's actually preferred to call it. And so I did it. So I did an 18 month course with a Danish school. So I'm certified sexologist and relationship therapist. And now I've just, I decided, I took a little break when I finished and then sort of had in the back of my mind that I maybe wanted to, to, to carry on and learn more because there's always more to learn, especially since I don't have a background in mental health. You know, I'm not a psychologist or anything, which a lot of people are, that maybe come into sexology. And so now I'm studying a PhD in clinical sexology, which I just started.

And I hadn't heard the term sexology before or sexologist. So tell me a little bit more. I mean, I think I've got a fairly good idea of what that means, but just explain what is the difference between a sexologist and a couple's therapist or a couple relationship coach or something like that?

Yeah, so I mean, I think it, they all very much overlap, but maybe, you know, if you, maybe traditionally, you know, if you go to a psychologist, if you go to a couple of couples therapist, relationship therapist you would typically go to, with you know, a partner to solve, you know, some problem in the, in the relationship. And I mean that person can also be a sexologist. And, and that helps because not all therapists are comfortable talking about sexuality and sex. But a lot of the time those are problems that people have. And so if you go to someone who has that competence, then they might be able to meet you better, you know, and then to not judge you or, you know, so that it doesn't also become awkward, you know, to speak to someone because it's something that's very personal, it's difficult for people to, to talk about. But as a sexologist is not a, it's not a protected title. So people who are sexologists, I mean they are effectively sex therapists and they can have different backgrounds and it's not necessarily so that you are a therapist because you are a sexologist. You can be an educator or you can be a researcher as well. But sexology is a field that spans many aspects of, of human sexuality. So, you know, sexuality across the lifespan, you know, relationships, sexual dysfunction, sexual disorders, sexual behaviors, sexual orientation, gender identity, sexual interests. And so a sexologist might help people, help a client resolve what they perceive to be a sexual difficulty, maybe help people, you know, to grow and develop their sexuality, offer information, offer education and so on. Brilliant.

And so one of the things that I can't help but ask about and I don't, I've not heard you talk about this, so I'm not quite sure where we're going to end up. But since getting into endurance sport, I've had a number of people say, God, that must put a huge strain on your relationship. So given that you've got the experience of endurance sport and relationships, do you see that endurance sport and people, you know, becoming, you know, people would say I'm addicted to exercise. And yet Flora College, who kind of researches addiction and is an ultra, well, is an ultra triathlete that had a different definition of addicted to exercise. But where do you see that? You know, do you see a relationship between relationship strain and, and endurance sport?

So, okay, so this would just be my, my personal observations and thoughts. Not any, because I haven't actually looked into if there is any research in this. So I, But I suppose I, I talk to a lot of people as a coach to a lot of runners and. A lot of time ultra runners, they discover it later in life, right? So it's not uncommon that you begin to, to do ultra running in your 40s, you know, maybe even 50s. But a lot of people already have, they have an established family and then they discover running. And. I often joke and say that the maritime, you know, it's like a, you know, what you do for your midlife crisis. And I think it depends, you know, it can be, it can be a challenge for the relationship because it's, it's something that takes up a lot of time, right? And it can take up a lot of money as well. It can be a very expensive sport. And people say, oh yeah, running is cheap, you just need a pair of shoes. Well, no, wait till you get into, get into ultra running. So I have experience the, you know, cases where it is a problem because, you know, it takes up too much time. And so if the partner isn't sharing that interest, they might not be very supportive. And then it's, then it's like, well, why are you running? You know, are you running because the love of running or are you running to, you know, to avoid something, to distance yourself from the relationship or, you know, some people use running to sort of self medicate, which might be much better than many other alternatives. You know, and the positive aspect of it is of course that you keep in shape or maybe you get in shape. I mean, sometimes people who have really fallen out of shape, they find running and they get in shape, which is really positive, but can also Be a problem if your partner doesn't make the same effort. Right. So, you know, I think, like with everything else, like, if, if you do. If one partner does endurance sports and that, you know, leads to friction in the relationship or is masking some other issue, you know, you need to communicate about it. And it takes an average of 6 years for people to seek counseling when they have a relationship problem. So. Yeah, but, yeah, I mean, the running doesn't. I don't know, I think running can be. Can be good and good and bad, but there are definitely things to communicate about and to think about in a relationship.

Brilliant. And I think I picked up from reading a bit about how you've moved towards the sexology side of things that you have a specialism, special ism in. Is it polygamy? Is that how you say it? I'm not sure now.

No.

I would call it. I would not call it polygamy. I would call it consensual non monogamy.

Consensual non monogamy. Excellent. I'll try to remember that. Like. So I. I once read a book years ago, I read a book called the Truth, an uncomfortable book about relationships, which talks a lot about consensual non monogamy. And it kind of ended up, you know, this guy, I can't remember the author's name, goes off and explores lots of different types of, you know, swinging clubs and all sorts of different things, and he ends up coming full circle by the end and come back to the fact that a monogamous relationship was actually the happiest he was in that journey. So talk to me a little bit about how you've specialized in this area. And, you know, what are more people embracing consensual non monogamy.

Monogamy. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Yeah, I think it is. I think now you see, you start to see more and more about it. I think there are a lot of articles in just sort of mainstream media, which is. Which is great. So it's starting to get some attention. It's not for everybody. And also it's not like one thing. It's definitely very, very many things. Certainly a sliding scale. But I think that generally speaking, I think that society provides, you know, a very rigid template for what a relationship should look like. You know, we should find the one. You know, the one exists. And then, you know, we should stick to that person, you know, preferably for life, but definitely for a long time. Because we measure the quality of relationship by how long they are. And that's why also I think people have this tendency to stay in a really bad relationship with. For maybe for too long before they seek help or. Or, you know, exit or try to make it better. Because. Because we somehow think that we should just, you know, the longer it is, the better it must be, you know, And. And, you know, we have to suffer to make it work. And. And, you know, whatever. And, you know, ultimately, it's. It's. It's quite difficult for people to live up to this template, you know, but we're so programmed to believe in. In monogamy that, you know, maybe when it doesn't work, then people are either unfaithful or, you know, maybe we, you know, move on to the next partner and we live in this kind of serial monogamy because we're like, okay, maybe that was not the one, but maybe I will find the one next time, you know, And I think a lot of people could be happier if maybe we could see that. Okay, it doesn't actually have to be that way. It doesn't have to be either or. It doesn't have to be black or white. But there is an alternative, and it's not for everybody, but you can actually. You can actually be with multiple partners, or you can be in a predominantly monogamous relationship, but you could have, you know, consensual sex outside of that relationship. And I believe that that needs to be talked more about, and it needs to become more widely accepted, and it's something that I think a lot of people would benefit from.

You're right. It's very much a societal. A cultural, religious theme that stops people talking about that. How do you think that that conversation around sort of different types of relationships will expand over time?

I think the more. The more people talk about it, the more accepted it will become. I mean, it. It needs to become more. More generally accepted as something that people just see, okay, this isn't. This is an option. It's an option that I can choose without being stigmatized, you know, without being bullied, without being sacked from work or without, you know, the neighbors thinking that I'm super weird or, you know, but also society. Everything about society is created for, you know, like, two people. And so there are also problems for people who want to live as more than two in terms of, you know, parenting, for example, like parenting rights and those kinds of things. Right. So inheritance. Yeah. So there are some. Some legal.

Some.

Some legal issues that need working on as well.

It is interesting, isn't it, because we've seen such a huge move in the conversation around transgender and that being much more acceptable. And, and yet you're right, this seems like a subject that nobody's talking about. So it is. I can see that it's a, it's a really interesting area for people, you know, for society to deal with at some point.

Yeah, I think it is. And it is emerging, you know, now, like, like you say, you know, now there is, there is now all of a sudden we see a lot about transgender. And at least in our part of the world, we see a lot of acceptance for, like, for gay marriage and you know that. But of course it varies, varies a lot across the world. And for people who, who want to live in some kind of ethical and non monogamous way, it is still difficult because they actually meet a lot of, a lot of prejudice and a lot of stigma. So it's also this marginalized group. And yeah, we just need, I think we need to talk about it more.

I think it's, I think I'm brilliant. It's brilliant that we're talking about it now because, yeah, funnily enough, it's never featured in any of the previous podcast episodes. So funny that. But it's brilliant that it's starting. We are starting to talk about it. So I mentioned the book that I read. I always ask guests for books that they found, and if not books, then other resources like podcasts or whatever. What books have you found yourself either recommending to others or found really powerful or useful in your life? And that can be around the sexology side of your life or the running side of your life or anything else for that matter. But what books have you found useful?

So, yeah, so actually, I mean, when we, if we talk about relationships, there is a book, there is a book that's called Attached Attached. Are you anxious, avoidant, or how the signs of adult attachment can help you find and keep love? It's by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. And I think this is a really, really good book that can be maybe quite enlightening for people in terms of understanding how you attach to other people, how you behave in relationships or when dating, and also understanding other people behaviors and maybe why they behave the way they do and what you can do to change dysfunctional patterns if you have them. So I think it's a book that is useful for everybody.

Brilliant. And it's never been recommended on the podcast before. So that's fantastic.

Well done.

Are there any from the ultra running world or from running in general or even sport in general that you found interesting over the years?

Ultra Running. I almost have, you know, it was a bit of a, it was a while ago since I actually read an ultra running book so I'm searching my, searching my kinder library. What do I have in here? Yeah.

But equally if you're having to search, they probably didn't make quite as much impact as.

No, I mean it's probably just that it was a, it was a, it was a while ago and now what I tend to read in terms of running is more sort of training books which are perhaps sort of like not boring but, but you know, like not super interesting but, but Shane Bansi, Shane Bancey has a book, the Lost Art of Running. Brilliant book, the Lost Art of Running. And I'm, I'm featuring in it.

You are featuring in it?

Yes. And I have, and, and you know people, people do contact me and say oh I read the book, it was brilliant. And you know, and so, so yeah.

That is a great book. I, I love that book. I think it's. For me that is up there with the Born to runs and I just think it's, there's so many wonderful stories in there but there's so much great advice in there. So. Yeah, that's a, that's a good recommendation.

Well done. What.

So to wrap things up because this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation, the reason that there's so much bird song in the background is you're kind of your, your, you've created this life now living out of a van. So kind of with that in mind, what are you looking forward to going forward in your life? You know, what's exciting you at the moment?

Oh well, I mean I'm excited about discovering new places. So yeah, my husband and I live in a van. We, I mean we do fly back home to Norway sort of once in a while, but we've. Yeah, we're in Spain at the moment. Spent a lot of time in Gran Canaria. We're gonna carry on traveling through Spain for the next couple of months. We're gonna go to south of France later this summer and then I'm going to fly over to San Francisco in August because I'm doing, I'm doing another therapy course actually which is about being a kink conscious therapist. So I'm going to go over there and explore San Francisco's kink communities asking to be very interesting.

Of course it sound fantastic.

And so, and then I, we know I, I don't really know where this will take us. We'll, we'll see. But time has gone by so quickly so Initially we didn't think we would spend like maybe longer than this in the van, that maybe we would go back to Norway. But no, we're just gonna carry on and see where this takes us. So I'm, I'm just trying to make it work. Living as a sort of a digital nomad, you know, doing my running coaching, doing therapy with individuals and couples and, you know, whatever relationship constellations come my way and studying and, and exploring the world and, and learning, you know, I think you also learn a lot about relationships when you live two people on 10 square meters. And so that's also a good experience.

I think it sounds fantastic though. But you obviously were chatting a little bit before we started recording about your sort of movements around Europe and. Yeah, I just think it's, it's brilliant that, that this, you know, and again, this is something that I suspect has this been born out of COVID in this, this nomadic sort of living through technology. Has, Was this, was that what initiated this?

I think what we, we traveled a lot before COVID and of course then Covid kind of put the halt to the traveling. And then it was this spontaneous idea that we had. We said, oh, why don't we buy a camper van and travel around Europe? You know, I think I said it and my husband went like, yeah, let's do it. And we were lucky enough to be able to do it. And so it was born out of COVID in a way because I think Covid has changed the way we travel. And there's definitely been a boom in traveling with campervans and motorhomes. And so that's one part of it. The second part is that Covid has enabled the sort of the digital remote working. And of course it was already possible. But it's one thing if you are open minded yourself, but if your clients aren't, it's difficult. Right. So now what we've seen with COVID is that more and more people are comfortable with, for example, doing therapy via video call, coaching via video call. Okay. So you don't have to sit face to face in the same room. And that's why I can do it. But if all my clients would say, no, we only want to see you, if we can come and see you in person, well, then that would be much more difficult.

But then they wouldn't be the right fit client for you now. So they're better off finding somebody else, aren't they?

Yeah, they are. I mean, for now. And I might settle down, I might settle down somewhere eventually. I mean, of course I will. But what's also great about this is that I can work with clients all over the world, which is interesting. So it provides a lot of. A lot of opportunity, I think. Fantastic.

Brilliant. Elizabeth, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you. Thank you so much for coming on the Tribathlon podcast where you mentioned Ultra Coach. But where is the best place to find you? Find out about you with regards to all the areas of your life.

So, yeah, So I have two websites, ElizabethBarnes.com that's where I have. Have sort of kept the therapy stuff. So that's sexology, relationship therapy, blogs about relationships, and then it's the same on Instagram. The Instagram is sort of. Yeah, that and a bit of private things. That's Elizabeth Barnes. And then Ultra Coach is more about the running side of life. And then we'll see what happens going forward, whether they will be merged or not. But I separated. I separated the accounts because it seemed to be so confusing for people that they were the same. So I don't know. I don't know what's right.

Well, I remember hearing you losing followers and gaining followers at the same time when you started introducing.

Lost so many followers. I mean, look, people just. People just get so embarrassed about stuff that has to do with sexuality and sex. They just can't. They can't cope, you know, I don't know. I just lost so many followers. But I was actually surprised. I was like, I think it's interesting. But hey, you know, well, that's.

That's another topic in itself, isn't it? But equally, I'm sure you're gaining different ones.

Yeah, yeah, probably brilliant.

Well, it's been absolutely fascinating chatting to you. Thank you so much. And I wish you every success with your coaching and with the sexology work and therapy work going forward. So, yeah, thank you very much.

Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

So, Claire, what did you make of the conversation with Elizabeth Barnes?

It was. It was great. She's just got so much experience and so many different fields that she's kind of worked in as well. And I just find it really interesting, actually. And you can probably sort of comment on this, like how people who are entrepreneurial or in certain professional roles, like how they. How they are really competitive and you see that in sort of every area of their life. So I found that really, you know, really interesting to start off with even before we delved into kind of her career as an athlete and then kind.

Of beyond as well.

Yeah, I agree. And I think the bit around earning a living for being a runner was an interesting. I've talked to other people about making a living from these sports and it is, you know, it's a massive step, particularly when you're successful in. I remember particularly talking to Ruth Astle about that, you know, and stepping away from, you know, a corporate role to make a living purely from this. It's a. Is a big step, but it's. It's really interesting. What else did you take from the conversation with Elizabeth?

So I was really interested to hear. To hear how she trained for, like environmentally trained for all of these events as well. Because actually we were just having a conversation about when it's hot and like, if you suddenly land somewhere and it's really, really hot, it takes obviously a while for adaptation. So whether that's at a certain number of meters above sea level or, you know, so altitude or whether it's kind of the heat or the humidity. So I found it really interesting how she did actually use heat chambers and things, but not always. And it's just interesting to know the kind of protocols that she's looked into using in the past as well. That, to me was really interesting.

I think you're right. And like, it's bizarre that somebody from Sweden has proved to be so successful in particularly desert races. But, yeah, you do wonder if things like. I mean. Yeah, I suppose it's an obvious thing. I mean, yeah, as we said, as I said, I'm. I've been cycling in absolute scorchio heat in Chicago today. And yeah, I probably should have been in the sauna for a few days leading up to it to condition myself.

It's a hard life, Charlie.

Yeah, I know. It hit me hard.

So.

So, yeah, no, I thought, I thought that was, yeah, really interesting. And the fact that altitude clearly takes a lot longer to adapt to than temperature.

And also that, you know, some of what came across is she. Because she sort of moves to different areas as well, which actually a lot of our professional triathletes do, don't they? Athletes are living in different sort of areas. But if you're living in heat or living at altitude, you can adapt as well. So I wonder whether kind of over that time she's learned to kind of adapt maybe more quickly, certainly to kind of heat.

Anyway.

Yeah, that for me, and that's my kind of science head on, was really interesting to hear about. And also packing of a bag because after our first ultra experience, you know, like trying to roll things up. I don't know how you carry all that food and everything else with you. So I'd love to see a bit more. She was talking about her group session. She runs as well, hasn't she? Like how to pack a bag. That would be amazing.

I definitely, I definitely need to dial into that because yeah, you're right. I mean we had more, more than enough kit to run with and we get, we had, you know, we were topping up water every time we, you know, stopped. We'd got food every time we stopped. So yeah, carrying enough stuff for the whole of a five day race is. And keeping it down six and a half kilos sounds like an absolute mission. So yeah, I definitely, definitely need to watch that in advance of doing, doing a desert race of some sort.

That's the next on the list. I was thinking of my kind of to do list actually this morning.

Swimming when I was tired.

So desert or Everest? Because I really liked hearing about both of those.

Well, I like the idea of the race actually that both her and Kerry talked about. Like that race does sound really good to me. I thought you meant kind of climbing properly climbing ever.

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That's something that I would not.

But which would you get if you were going to do your first multi day, which would you do through the desert or to base?

I think actually I think for me doing Marathon de Sable because that is something that I have wanted to do for years and years. This is very much like when I first wanted to do Iron man because I used to live just outside Sherborne in Dorset. So for those of you that know any of the Ironman races in the uk, that was where, I think that was our first UK race and we used to see triathletes just cycling through the town. So to me I was like, that is what I want to do. And I remember saying that's what I'm going to do at some point. So yeah, for me that, that marathon in the desert is on my hit list for sure. What about you? Which one would you choose then?

I think that, you know, it's difficult actually. I think I'd all. I mean I know MDS is so iconic and everyone talks about it, but I really like the sound of the Namib desert. Oh yeah, that also sounded good instead of MDs. So. But I think I'd be more inclined to do the base camp Everest first because all three. Well, clearly at some point you just have to do it. Oh that's, that's the long term solution, isn't it? But I think first because I suppose Everest a. You haven't got the temperature issue. I know you've got altitude, which potentially worse. But you also, they carry more stuff for you, don't they, on Everest? So it would kind of seem like a, a good way of building up to the desert if, if they carry more kit for you. But either way, I mean, I think they all sound awesome.

Yeah.

And the last, I mean the last bit I just wanted to cover was the. So I know you had to dial out before the end of the interview, but what we certainly haven't covered sexology and consensual non monogamous relationships in the Tribathlon podcast before. And I did think that that was.

And I had to dial out at that point.

Yeah, you had to dial out just as it got interesting. But it was, it was, I just, it really got me thinking actually, because, you know, in this day and age we are so, you know, in the Western world we are very tolerant of, you know, the transgender conversation, different sexualities. You know, we seem to be very, very tolerant except as soon as we started talking about what I described as polygamy and she described as consensual non monogamy. God, that is such a mouthful. Which I probably shouldn't say actually. That might not be appropriate. But yeah, you realize that actually that is a very different conversation and I think the perception of that because of culture and religion and everything else is still, you know, it's a conversation I hadn't heard talked about and I could see that that was an interesting area for her to kind of take her education towards. So yeah, that I thought was a really interesting. That did get me thinking about society and how that is isn't being talked about.

But no, you're absolutely right. Well, even the actual word for it, I can't even remember what it is now.

Consensual non monogamous relationships. Yes, it is quite challenging. But. But yeah, no, she's a fascinating lady.

And, and now isn't it like, you know, so many kind of. She, it sounds like, you know, she always wants to learn, be learning and learn more. Yeah, yeah.

Really, really good. Right, well on that note, we'll, we'll. Until the next episode, good luck, you know, with your training and recovery after your racing at the weekend and, and for everyone else, keep on training. And remember this podcast was sponsored by 33 fuel. So rethink your sports nutrition with 33 fuel award winning natural sports nutrition for your performance, health and a fitter Future. It's the 33 Fuel Fuelosophy get yours at 33fuel.com and if you use the discount code tribeathlon or the link in the show notes, you'll get a discount at the checkout. If you enjoyed this podcast, please do review it and share it because it helps other people find what we think is really valuable learning lessons from amazing athletes. So please do that. You can also find the whole back catalogue@tribathlon.com and you can also find out about the Tribe Athlon and app, which helps people find events, find people to train with and enjoy their events through their tribe. So check out tribathlon.com.