Designing Triathlon with Dean Jackson

Foreign.

Tribathlon podcast, finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

So when I had the topsuit, the Archimedes for who I wanted to offer it in those two buoyancies. So I'm a really good swimmer. Great. Have the four, four or I struggle a bit with leg sync. Great. Have the three, five. So you can have the best and it will suit you.

That was Dean Jackson and this episode is Designing Triathlon. Dean Jackson founded HOOB in 2011, and which for most of you, you already know, but for those of you don't, is a sporting brand that delivers performance enhancing products, initially in wetsuits, but covering a much wider range nowadays, which is supported by some of the top triathletes in the world, including the Brownlee brothers, which endorsed and embraced their first wetsuits. And actually they raved about them. But then subsequently, Dino, as he's known, has brought this incredible success to the world of track cycling, being a part of the independent British UCI track team called Huub wattbike. So I wanted to pick Dino's brains on how they've used research and technology to improve our swimming and our cycling. But also, I didn't expect to laugh as much as I did. Dino is just full of brilliant stories. How he got to the point where he set up Huub is fantastic and well worth listening to, and some of the stories he's got from the world of triathlon are just brilliant. So I know you're going to really enjoy this interview as well as taking a load of really practical suggestions and advice from it. This podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfood. Now, I've been a big advocate of wheatgrass for many years, but I only in the last year or so switched to having fresh wheatgrass that's then frozen as opposed to the powdered stuff. And I found that to improve my health even more. Now, I've been a big advocate of wheatgrass because I know it's kept me fit and healthy, because when I've had spells where I've stopped taking it, I've started picking up the bugs and colds and things like that again, which I never seem to get when I'm taking wheatgrass. I know it improves my immune system, my health, but also it gives me more energy and faster recovery. So loads of health benefits of taking wheatgrass. But Brits is field grown, organic, freshly frozen, and they also do a load of amazing juices as well, so that you can combine the two, like the beetroot ones, so you can have your nitrates before or after an event. You can find out more@britsuperfoods.co.uk but at the end of this podcast I'm going to give you a discount code or a referral code that will give you loads of benefits. So a discount, some free products, some free shipping, but they also have, which is worth just mentioning here, 110% 30 day money back guarantee. So if you're not feeling better having taken this for 30 days, they'll give you your money back and an extra 10%, which is absolutely bonkers. But that's how confident they are on the health benefits that you will see as a result of taking wheatgrass just for 30 days. So anyway, hang on to the end of this podcast and I'll give you a great discount code. This podcast is also brought to you by the Tribeathlon app. The best place to find your next event, whether that's a running race, whether it's a triathlon, whether it's a duathlon, whether it's an obstacle based race. The most comprehensive search facility is on the Tribeathlon app, which you can download from tribeathlon.com. So Dino, really excited to get you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. Really looking forward to chatting to you, finding out more about the success that you've had. So do you want to kick things off by for those people that don't know who Dean Jackson is, tell us a bit about where you've come from, what you've done now and the sort of successes along the way.

Well, thanks for having me on. It's always nice to be able to tell the story and give it a bit of background. You know, everyone sees Huub and thinks we're a Germanic clothing brand, but no, we're born in the heart of England. So Dean Jackson, I'm the kid at school that wasn't that sharp at a lot of things. And when I was at school they used to rank you out of your class out of 31. And I was always 30 or 31, weirdly, apart from drama where I was one and art where I was one. So I didn't cut on that early where my strengths were, but maybe I should have done. And you know, team sports were never for me. There was always the couple of guys who played for Derby boys or had that career path laid out ahead of them and wore the cotton drill tops and rolled the shorts down and thought they were great. And the teacher, you say, dean, do you want to go off on a run? Yeah, please, if you don't mind. So I found myself the loneliness of the football distance runner. I just go off on my own at the end of the PE session, I just come back and haven't enjoyed my run. And I just found myself in that world of endurance sport where you can. The only thing you're proving is how good you are, how committed you are and how well you've trained and how well you know your event or even the products around it. And that was a delight for me because I wasn't letting anyone else down. You know, I'm dyspraxic, I'm terribly uncoordinated, and to kick a ball the right end of the pitch, never mind pass it to someone else, is always a massive challenge for me. So I got into that distance running world and interested in my first time down a running track was in a pair of stretch jeans. I don't think you're old enough to remember they used to have a white line down the side. And I got my high tech Silver Shadows from Asda and I was ready. Not realizing that in the days of Royan Hill, Traxxas and Microtites were looming. I must have looked a bit of an idiot, but, you know, I went down there and I did it with a good friend called Darren. And that just hooked me. And I thought, this is something I can do. And my coach was great, Pete. And I saw a pathway in the sport. Not for being damn good at it. I was not that good. I think I was county steeplechase champion. But there was only four of us who wanted to do the race and three of them were prattling about. So it left me. And there were big hurdles. There were really big hurdles. And my coach, he said to me, you know, what are you going to do when you leave school and stuff? I said, well, you know what? I'm going to be a male nanny. I'm going to go and do the training to become a male nanny, which wasn't the norm. Then he said, well, okay, I've got to set a running shop up one day. And we kind of parked the idea and I went to college and it was 48 women and me. And, you know, the same, I think.

Why you picked the course?

Well, you know what? I was so naive that I just wish I knew then what I know now. It might be very different. I mean, it was just, you know, I was kind of scared and timid. That was where I met my wife, actually. We never kind of hooked up there, but we did later. But after a year, I kind of got sexism the other way. And there was lots of parents going, why is there a male in the nursery environment? And I wasn't allowed to change some of the kids, but the women in the environment were. And the other students who were female were. There was one, there was one great story. I was in a class and we were doing the reproductive organs and they did the female and they said, right now we're going to the male. And this teacher, she turned straight to me and said, dean, will you go and draw a penis on the board? So I got up and I drew what, you know, my art O level, drew me a half decent penis. And she turned around and said, well, I hope yours doesn't look like that. Could you imagine in this day and age if that would have happened? And yeah, she had it in for me from that day onwards because I would have drawn something much bigger if that was, if I knew. So from there I left that and I found myself asking that question to my run coach to do you still want to do that running shot? And that got me into the sporting goods world. My mom and dad took a loan out with me and secured it. And my business partner was a colonial and we set up a little running shop in Derby called the Derby Runner in 1989. And it was only then that my obsession for sportswear kind of really came out. I was so obsessed with shoes. I'd have pictures of shoes all on my wall. I'd take to bits Today's Runner magazine and Running magazine and get American Runner's World. And I was just obsessed with footwear and where the research and designs were going. And I guess there's probably a lot of 50 year olds that say, you know, what's this brand with a tick on it and all that kind of stuff. And after two and a half years at Derby Runner, a job vacancy came up at Brookes and a wonderful friend who's sadly no longer with us who set out, he helped set Speedo up in triathlon many years ago and he before that he was at Brooks and he said, dean, would you like to come and join us and tell teach people how to sell running shoes? And that, oh, dream job. And the Brooks technology was called Hydro Flow. So I had a white Sierra state with Hydro Flow written down the side. I probably look like a plumber or a drain cleaner with that word down the side, but I thought it was the coolest thing ever. And I was in the industry to be on that side of the industry, which is so exciting. So that's kind of where the Journey began. You know, if you want me to bore you for another 10 minutes, I can take.

Yeah, no, please, keep going.

But yeah, that was me. So Brooks, I was there for eight months. I worked with Simon Willis who I mentioned and I remember one of the, one of the early things didn't come down to Southend. We're going to go on a training run. There's a guy called Eamon Martin coming, you may have heard. And I'm like, ayman Martin, he's a hero. I think I was after he just after he won London Marathon. Oh, and his mate Rob Denmark. No. So I'm doing hill reps with Eamon Martin and I thought I'm going to take the first one out hard and I'm up next to Eamon and it's like, what about what you do in about the next 15, I was like, oh dear, this is going to be really painful. And you can imagine after three I'm at the back and gone. But that was like my first kind of star to me and meet some of the stars. And at the times, triathlon was a growing sport and we had the events in Windsor and Bath and you got Spencer Smith coming through and here's this big quad animal of an athlete that would just tear through a field and win. And it was just so exciting to be involved in this pink lycra clad world with things like seat shifters and head wheels and all this bizarre new stuff. So that just got me craving for even more. And I left Brooks after eight months, a distributor chains and a wonderful man called Cliff Jews who was running Etonic running shoes. It's quite an old brand. And they called and said, you know, would you like to talk to us? And I just popped in, I was passing one day, I said, right. He said, talk to you, I'm ready. And by the time I'd left, I got a job and I was working with Nick Curry, who is currently the Huub sales manager now. We bought Nick in to see us and he's now in the fold. And there was me and Nick and we were out in the UK selling and pushing and promoting this small running brand called Etonic. They also had gold shoes, which were the better seller. But it was just, it was really enterprising and we set what was probably one of the first UK triathlon teams up. High five Etonic. The two of us together. And high five was made in big like wallpaper paste tubs with a blue logo on. And the first athletes were Matt Bellfield, what's his name? Woods. Chris woods from Sheffield, Rod Dyer and Ian Hamilton. Ian Hamilton, who runs the Outlaw Triathlon Series, an osb. He was one of the first athletes we had. So we were there in the early days of triathlon. I did two years at the Tonic. They got taken over by Spalding and I found myself selling Spalding basketballs and golf balls. I had the whole east of England, Scotland and London. Not. Not a small patch. That was. That was fun. I remember taking a life size cut out. Was he 7 foot 2 of Shaquille O', Neal into a sports store in Harrogate. And he just looked at me and went, oh, bloody hell's that? That's Shaquille o'. Neal. He's the big noise, all right. And it was just. It was a real grounding in knocking on doors and just trying to sell a products. It wasn't run shoes, it was the basketballs as well as the run shoes. And one of my old reps at the Derby, Runner, wonderful guy. He's never on time. He's worse than me. A guy called Tony Leonard was at asics and we stayed in touch and he just rang me, said, dean, I'm leaving, I've got a job at Reebok. And I'm so pleased for him. And he said, would you like to be considered for the Gold Medal dealers manager at Asics? And the Gold medal dealer was a network of 100 run stores that Asics were keen to support and see specialists flourish. And I went for an interview with the boss, Alan Cope, who's still a true inspiration to me to this day. And I got the job. And to me, that was the daddy head of running at asics. Does it get any better than that? And Lisa York was there with me and we grew market share and we use the London Marathon shoe count as a barometer. And we grew from 6.7% when I left, it was 47, 48% market share. Wow. So it was a huge growth journey. The London Marathon endorsement had a huge amount to do with that. But that really saw Asics take off and lift off. And I was looking after elite athletes, product development, sponsorship, and I got to meet some absolute stars. So that, that Rob Denmark, Eamon Martin moment was magnified when it's like, oh, this is a new. A new kid. Do you want to sponsor him? And this is Fatima Whitbread and Andy Norman talking to me. His name's Ewan Thomas. We'll give him a go. And Steve Bakley would come in and Jonathan Edwards. We did a deal with him after I Think a few probably thought his career was over but then he went and got Olympic gold and a pair of ASIC spikes and that was just a truly amazing time. But in 2001 we had some financial shenanigans within the business and the biggest casualty was marketing and I was the biggest spender, probably still the biggest spender in sport in marketing, supporting athletes. And I lost the job there and you know, that was my first real smackdown. It's my son makes fun of me and I tried back but never, never win on that one. And we joke about the Rocky saying, it's not, you know, it's about how you get up, it's not victories, it's how you get up when you get knocked down. And that was a huge knockdown. I remember leaving Warrington crying my eyes out and I used to commute every day from Derby that I'd lost the best job in the world and I was no longer needed there and they were making cuts. What am I going to do now? And you know my wife has always has been incredibly supportive and that was my first step into the kind of self employed world. And okay, who do I know? What am I good at? I've been working with Jody Swallow, a triathlete when I was at Asics and had some contacts with Michelle Dillon and Leander Cave. So I said I'll go into some management. And there was only really Richard Downey doing it at the time and he's still doing it and he's still perhaps the best out there, I'd say. And I moved into it with those three athletes. Leander, two weeks after we agreed to work together, went and won the world championships. So then with doing deals with Coke and Visa and Commonwealth Games in the UK and that was a real, a real learning ground for me and I set some running shops up, try to do that again. I set a rugby brand up and I did the classic of having too many plates up and spinning because the panic of well, I haven't got a job, what am I going to do? And you know, after, after three years the run shops didn't survive very well supported by Dennis and Jill from up and Running and I helped them out with some of their franchises and they took the shops on and I went to work for the American Bicycle group, Trevor Gunning, who's one of the real early adopters and like China, shall we say advocates for triathlon in the UK and Trevor took me to the American Bicycle Group and within a couple of years I was in the States working for them, looking after their brand and marketing, I worked with a true legend of triathlon sporting goods and bikes. Herbert Crabel over in Chattanooga, Tennessee. That was brilliant. And Brad Devaney, a great bike designer. I was over there for a couple of years. They brought a new CEO in, an investor. And I remember he sat, he sat me down and he said, you English think you know everything and let me tell you, you don't. I hadn't had it in my mouth at this point. He said, I've done one triathlon, I now know as much as you do. Well, okay, I have got quite a bit of experience and. And it just kind of went downhill from there. So I nicknamed him Lord Farquaad. I think I got the nickname Shrek. And yeah, my future was limited. So I left there, I did some consultancy. I stayed in Chattanooga for the Linsky Group, which was Titanium bikes and Planet X. I did a bit of joint for the both of them. Dave Locken at Planet X is, you know, he's always been a good friend and supporter and came back to the UK and a guy called Tim Moxie was running Blue 70 triathlon wetsuits. And he said, you know, do you want to come and run the sales of Martin for Blue 70 live anywhere in the world that you want? And I just said, well, if I can live anywhere in the world, I'll go back home and I'll go back to Derby. So I came back to Derby, set an office up, had a little team, and then after four years, you know, kind of my job was done there. And Tim said, look, we're just going to have to part ways. So I found myself at 40, 41 years old, going out on the jobs market, realizing I'm perhaps a bit old and people telling me I was old and my CV was old fashioned back to front. I think, oh, Lord, this isn't going to end well. And I got four kids, university and college and all that kind of thing looming. And it's desperation. I thought, what I'm going to do. So I just wrote a business plan in 2011, in July, for my own brand. And it was a brand that wasn't built on. There's no pretense, there's no suggestive research. It's pure, proper research. It's not saying to an athlete, please go for a swim in this product. And they go, wow, that feels 20% better. And so we put, that's 20% better. It was going to be led by science and facts. And I wrote the plan. I did triathlon with a few friends I beat them all. Six weeks later, we did another one and they crucified me. And one of them, a partner at Deloitte, Mark, told me, said, what's up with you? And I just explained that I'd lost my job and I didn't know what I was going to do. And, you know, Christmas is looming and all that, you know, I'm a spender, not a saver. And he said, well, what's your vision? I said, I've got an idea for a triathlon company in my head and I've got a plan. He said, well, speak to my mate Tom. I did speak to Tom. It turned out Tom was the conduit to 12 individual investors from Nottingham. And I met him with the plan and he asked me to present. So on the 4th of October 2011. So we'd just gone past my 9th anniversary and we've got breakfast tomorrow, me and Tom, we meet every year if we can, to celebrate, he calls it the time I met a little fat bloke from Derby. I'm not that fat and little, but, you know, I'll let him, he's six foot six monster. And I went and did a presentation to the investors and they were great. And they basically said, we'll give you £25,000, Dean. We love the vision for Huub, but you've got three things you've got to do. So it was kind of like my Harry Potter wizard challenges, if you like. And I had to sell $300,000 worth of product. I had to prove my wetsuit design was the fastest and I had to get an Olympian wearing it. Well, we had 2012 around the corner in London, obviously, and the Brownie brothers needed a pilot, so they were looking at Will Clark or Harry Wiltshire at the time. So I did a little sponsorship deal with them. Took as a wetsuit brand coming, please wear it. Okay, hurry up, deal and get us a wetsuit. And as it turned out, Brownies chose Stuart Hayes as the pilot. But it's great I had those two. So that was a big tick. Had an amazing, amazing support from an ex American Bicycle Group workmate, Chris Gephardt in the us, who gave me a good order for the product again before he'd seen it committed. And UK retailers that had known me for a long time, Sigma Sport, with dead supportive total fitness, not going to be sadly no longer with us. And I did some testing in a flume in the Netherlands with an old friend who had worked on for Beijing Olympics with a blue 70 swim skin where we'd Won the by collaborating with an amazing athlete, Martin van der Viden. He won gold. That was a blue 70 suit. I'd worked with Professor Hube on it and so I just rang him up and said, you know, would you like to. Well, actually I met him at the airport in Schiphol and I said, just so you know, I've trademarked your name. And he's like, oh, okay. Would you like part of the company and would you like to join me? And to be fair to Huub, he said, I'll join the company on one condition. That as I'm a professor and I'm kind of good at hydrodynamics and what I'm doing, if I tell you how to make something faster, will you just listen to me? And I'm sat there going, well, that's why I'm here. Why would I not listen to you? He said, well, I put many ideas under the noses of swim brands and they don't want to know. So I couldn't believe that. So Professor Hube came in, he trademarked his name but he joined us, thankfully and I tested my suit and my concepts with great concepts. Came out of a meeting with Shelley Taylor Smith, a fantastic open water swimmer, Paul Newsom and Adam Young of swimsmooth. This was just before Paul Newsom was going to swim the channel and we met down in Folkestone, went for a Costa, dreamt of some wonderful ideas and concepts. I put them into action. The designs were faster. So I went back to the investors, ticked on my three boxes. This was November, December 2011. So it was cold and it was wet and all the pre seasons for the industry had been done. Managed to pull it out of the bag and then I got another £100,000 from my investors to buy the stock and yeah, that's kind of it, sorry, that's probably taken up like half an hour. But that's my journey to here.

Fantastic. But what a brilliant story. And you know, you've clearly got this incredible passion for the world of triathlon and running, which is just wonderful to hear. When you mentioned the Brownlee brothers, weren't they quite instrumental in getting you up and running as well in terms of were they kind of the first big name to endorse the who Wetsuits? Is that right?

Yeah, totally right. And you know when you, when I, if I ever write the book for my grandkids that there'll be a chapter on Richard, Alistair and Johnny because Richard, their manager was approached by me and I said, Richard, when the boys contract is up Please let me know. He said, dean, what you going to put them in? I went, leave it with me, I'll have something by then. And we had a chuckle between us. And then the time came around and I remember vividly, I'm sat on my drive and it was October, November 2011. No, it wasn't. 2012. Sorry. After the Olympics. And he rang me up and said, right, the deal's ready to be done. You know, this is the ballpark I'm looking at. And I went in with a number and, you know, we just kind of came back and said, well, I've got another offer at the same time number. And I. I said, well, I'll leave it at that. And I put the phone down and then I remembered that I'm dealing with the Brownies, who were from Yorkshire. So I rang him back and I said, richard, what if I paid 1000 pound more? And he said, done deal, done. Okay. And it's so wonderful because I said, what, the boys haven't swam in my suit? He said, they trust you. You've done your time at Blue 70, you've done your time with Quintana Roo in American Bicycle Group. They trust you. And, you know, I have so much to thank them for having faith in me. Not only the two athletes and the great athletes have come to be, but their manager taking a pun in a new upstart business, A, hoping I could afford it and B, that I'd be able to deliver the product and shine and market the boys. So they joined in 2013 and we did a nice launch. It was like Question Of Sport and Guess who's joining and a great launch. And we got it on Radio 2 and made some great noise with it. But that year my turnover doubled and I went from half a million that I did in the first nine months of trading, and the following year we did a million. And this is at my garage. This is at my garage when you move the tumble dryer and put a rail of wetsuits and people knocking on my door at 9 o' clock at night. Are you the wetsuit man? And they were. Yeah, they were instrumental in shifting the business.

Hugely fantastic. And coming back to Professor Huub, what was it in the early days that he kind of really focused on to change and create the wetsuits that were so successful. And then maybe, what's he done since?

Funnily enough. So we're in this waiting room at Schiphol Airport and it's for the railway station. And I said, right, who I'm going to lay out all the best wetsuits on the market and the ones that get all the editors excited. So I laid them out, and he just stopped picking up. He started chuckling and smiling and shaking his head. I said, who? What are you shaking your head for? He said, well, forearm catch panels. I wrote a paper on that five years ago that showed they don't work. And what are these grooves in this wetsuit? Oh, that's water flow channels. And he just started laughing. He said, that's not a vortex generator. So initially we went through his back catalog of research and said, well, while claiming these things in the industry when they don't work and there's science to prove it. So I caused a little bit of trouble initially by saying, forearm catch panels don't work, et cetera, et cetera. Who did ask me how we can solve the problem of cramping in a wetsuit. And together we came up with changing the modulars and materials around the calf muscle. But when you're plantar flexing, when you're swimming, when you're kicking, it can cramp the calf up. So we dealt with that. And as we moved on, the key thing for us was our buoyancy profile. And we just looked in, working with Swimsmooth, they have seven different types of swimmer, and one of them is an Arnie. And a lot of males in triathlon have sinky legs, and their legs are sinking, and it's 85% of the market. So Huub and I with Paul Newsom looked at it and said, why are we putting lots of buoyancy around the chest when you've got lungs and you're going to breathe through it, so you're not going to bury your head in the water and not breathe, so you're always going to have that point out the water. Let's lift the thighs and hips. So we created the 3,5 buoyancy profile. 3 mil on the chest, 5 mil thighs and hips. And then we looked at the women that are reverse, and most of them have better buoyancy in the thighs and hips. So we put three, three and reduce the buoyancy so they had good engagement with the water. And that was Hoob's thinking and research with me. And we tested this on a system in the Netherlands at the Peter van der Hoogenbahn Center. And we proved what we were thinking on what's called the MADS system, which is a measurement of active drag. And then we decided, two years into the business with Huub, we need to build our own MAD System, but a better one. And who invented the MAD system with one force plate. So it's like having 17 starting blocks that you push your hands against against one force plate. So we got a grant from Innovate UK match funding and we spent 300,000. Well, we spent 150,000. They spent 150 and created the MAD system. 17 force plates, 25 meters. So we, we have thanks to hooves determination, especially as a project at times I could pull my hair out with that. We have the best piece of equipment for tested swimming anywhere in the world and we don't share it with anyone else. And all the knowledge is ours and we keep it to ourselves. And Huub's been a massive driver in that. That's one of the key things he really has brought to the business.

Amazing. In fact, funnily enough, by coincidence, last week I was interviewing Sam Perkins and he said that he just happened to be chatting about his kind of current career of helping people with grant applications and he said he helped you guys with, with the mad.

Yeah, because I'm not a person to sit still for a long time. I just get too fidgety and the thought of filling out a grant application fills me with dread. So we brought a company called TBAT in and Sam was working for them and Sam was a triathlete. So I'm talking my language to someone who gets it. Yeah. And Sam was instrumental and getting some growth money and the Innovate UK money. Yeah. What a wonderful, wonderful man. I think I could say too much wonderful stuff about that guy. Absolute legend.

Yeah. No, he is absolutely inspiring guy. And. And the MAD system didn't have that. Didn't have to move. Did you not pay for it?

Oh, yeah, yeah. So, you know, we've all seen what happens in councils and council leisure facilities. So we have this 33 and a third yard pool in Derby called Moreways and we were going across the deep end and the diving end and it was 25 and a quarter meters. So we built the system to fit this pool and the council were behind us, as they've always been, and then they told us they were knocking the pool down, so we had to change the MAD system, try and make it fit. Derby's got a shortage of water venues anyway, so we ended up not its sufferance, but we took it to Mallorca to the best swim center and they were really supportive there. And we have, we have the facility over there, but Derby is building a new pool and I'm hoping we'll either build another MAD system Or that one will be coming back. Back to its home in Darbados.

I'm going to come back to the Darbados reference in a bit because I think I know where that comes from. But staying on the wetsuits for now. You say there's seven different profiles. You've got people, you've got your Arnie and your others. So how. How are you best. You know, how. As a kind of age grouper, would I be best to find the best wetsuit? For me, it seems like a complicated place.

Well, due to the fact that I believe there's a complete lack of innovation in wetsuits. And apart from us, ourselves, I think we drive so much and when you look at other wetsuit brands, they. They haven't evolved. They still. Some of them still got forearm catch panels. And claiming that dimpled neoprene is 30% more buoyant. We've already done a white paper to say it isn't. So I think it's actually quite simple because a lot of the brands haven't evolved too much. You're either a leg sinker or you're not. So 85% chance you're a leg sinker. So you can go for a 3, 5 buoyancy or something that's stacked with buoyancy in the thighs and hips. Your swim coach or someone will tell you if you've got good buoyancy naturally. And the chances are if you're that 15% that floats really well on water, you're a good swimmer anyway and you are aware of what your body's doing in the water and you've got a great feel for it. So you've got to decide which category you fit into. Interestingly, when the Brownies first came to us, they said, well, no, we want the 44 wetsuit because we're good swimmers and no one's ever going to argue with that. But when we put them in the 3, 5, more freedom in the upper body, more buoyancy in the legs, thighs and hips, they went, okay, we want to swim in the 3, 5, but can you print it 4, 4 for us? And the reason I had two buoyancies was when I was at Blue 70, we had the Helix wetsuit, which is an outstanding wetsuit and still is to this day. But people would come to me and go, oh, that's the suit I want. And they weren't swimming quick enough, they weren't competent enough and they weren't that good in the pool. And you just say, it's not the right suit for You. And they go, yeah, but I want that because it's the best. And it's a bit like me wanting to ride a disc wheel when I'm only riding 20 miles an hour. Just doesn't, you know, calculate out. So when I had the topsuit, the Archimedes for who I wanted to offer it in those two points. So I'm a really good swimmer. Great, have the four, four or I struggle a bit with legs and great, have the three, five. So you can have the best and it will suit you. So back to your question. How do you pick one? You've really just got to identify which one of those two you are, leg sync or not, and try a few on. You know, it's, it's how it fits your body. We all have different shapes and not every brand size medium is the same as the next brands. Some of The Australian brands, 2Xus and Orcas, tend to have. Not Australian, sorry. New Zealand brands tend to have more slimmer fit. 2 Xu, born in New Zealand with Jamie Hunt and then Australian. So it's that Southern hemisphere fit, should I say Quintana Roo? When I worked there, we had quite strong, muscular, larger American fit. And I tried to put Huub in that kind of the blue 70 QR kind of mix had, you know, slightly more generous but not too big fit. So, you know, we do a lot now where we'll send two or three wetsuits out and we'll get two back and the user tried them on and they'll find the right suit. Ideally, you need to swim in it. And we're never adverse to sending out a demo wetsuit to somebody, okay, just go swim in it, we'll send it back, we'll give you money straight back or just take a deposit and then you can order a new one if you like. It's.

That's a, that's a. That's something I've not heard of before. So. Because that is the problem, isn't it? The best way to test it is to swim in it. But you can't order a wetsuit from most retailers and say, by the way, I've just had a couple of hours in the pool and actually it doesn't work. I'd like to send it back. It's just not going to happen, is it? So that's, that's an interesting idea.

Yeah. You know what we asked ourselves? Why, why doesn't it happen? And it's down to, well, someone's got to take the wetsuit back and repair it and triathletes if you're listening, you will put holes in your wetsuit neoprene. When you put it on. It's not our fault. We don't make the neoprene. It's like your tires and your shoes, they wear out. Let's all accept that and deal with it, because we get so many. I put a hole in it, it's your fault. No, it's not really my fault, but we can tell you how to repair it. But that was part of the problem, was, I don't want any wetsuits back. What do I do with it? We're kind of proud here at Huub. Last year, we threw away two wetsuits. That is it. That was all we threw away. And actually, whenever we threw them away, we cut them up, made sure we sanitize anybody peeing in them. And we've all got neoprene mouse mats that are made out of old wetsuits, because we bring the wetsuits back and then we have an X demo sale. So we will sell those suits that maybe got damaged and been repaired that someone's tried on and didn't quite like the suit. So we just recirculate them through the business and we'll trade them in and back and forth. So we're kind of proud of that. You know, if anybody's not happy with the suit, we'll just take it back and swap it out. You know, if it's three years old, obviously there's warranty, questions have to be asked, but someone has it, so they just don't get on with it. It's really not a problem because we know what we can do with it and we can do something positive with it.

Fantastic. What a brilliant message for people. And I think that's just really reassuring that you just. Because they're expensive things, aren't they, and you don't want to buy one and a year later go, do you know what? I wish I'd bought a different one. You want to get the right one, right from the off, and then it'll last you a long time. And speaking of holes in wetsuits and kind of picking being difficult to fit to a wetsuit, Ross Edgeley was a bit of a challenge, wasn't he?

Yeah.

Tell me about how you supported Ross. I'm halfway through the Art of Resilience at the moment, which is, what an amazing story so far. I haven't got to the end of it, as I say. But tell us a bit about how you helped Ross.

Yeah. So, you know, every now and again you get given a golden egg and you'd be a fool not to see it. But I think I've probably not seen a few golden eggs in my time. Like when I was at ASICS and I told Paula Radcliffe she wouldn't make it as a marathon runner and we didn't continue sponsorship of her. And then she went and broke the world record. But that wasn't a golden egg I saw. But, you know, this guy came to see me and so you got to meet him. He's got to the triathlon with a tree on his back. I go, why would I want to meet anybody who's done a triathlon with a tree on their back? And then I met Ross and oh, my days, what an inspirational, enthusiastic. He makes you just want to love your life because he's just so positive. And he said, I'm going to swim around Britain. And I just laughed and said, you're on crack, pal. You ain't going to do that. It's a long way. And if you do, I'll do a triathlon with a tree strapped to me back. And we shook hands and we said, we'll give you wetsuits. But you know what? Has anyone ever swam longer than two hours, three hours maybe in a wetsuit? You just don't. Even in an Ironman training, you might swim for two hours. So here's somebody who was going to test your product to the limit. And actually the limit of testing of any wetsuit brand I'll challenge any of them has probably only been an hour's swim because we're looking at performance and speed and flexibility and all of those things. So we gave Ross some zoo. And like the first swim he did was, I don't know, 12 hours. No one's ever swam for 12 hours in a wetsuit. They might have done a few channel crossings here and there. And of course he's taken off and he's so strong. He was pulling arms off and, you know, we could have got quite upset that the suits weren't good enough. But we know the suits are more than good enough for purpose of what the iron man world using them. But what Ross was doing was just uncharted waters and we, we hadn't made anything to, to stick to that. He was going through a wetsuit a day at some point and that's why he had to shift to like a diving type suit, something that was built to be much more robust and not swam in. But it just suited Ross with that.

Absolutely amazing. I mean, as I say, I haven't finished the book yet. I have finished. I had. Have read Sean Conway's book of Helen High Water, where he swam first swimming from Land's End to John o'. Groats. So I can also appreciate the longer they're swimming, the more day after day after day in cold water for that long it must take. Yeah. Must have a huge impact on them. So I would imagine a diving wetsuit was also helpful for that too.

Yeah. But you know what, what are the best things we saw out of that was when he cut a hole in his swim hat and put it down inside the neck of his wetsuit so he didn't get chatting. Damn simple idea needs most necessity. Right.

And has that adapt. Have you adapted the design at all since as a result of that?

What we, what we have done is created a swim hood that goes all the way inside. So if you are swimming in cold waters, it's neoprene inside the wetsuit and then you put the wetsuit on so it stops any rubbing on the neck.

Okay. Okay, brilliant. So innovation as well.

Yeah.

And speaking of open water swimming over the course of this. So I've obviously been training, carry. Trying to carry on training for Ironmans, obviously. The pools closed in March, so as of about probably June, we started swimming in the River Nene, which is not very far from us here. And by the end of the summer, in fact, we're just winding it up now really. But there's been quite an amazing crowd of people doing. The wild swimming seems to have taken over. So how is that. How have you seen that translated into your business? Because obviously the events haven't been happening, but the wild swimming has probably been taking off. How has that impacted the wetsuit business?

Well, it's been very bizarre because at the start of lockdown, I was scared to death. This was it, it was over. The dream was done and finished. And yeah, we knew with no events, we wouldn't sell competitive clothing and we haven't. It's been a really tough year on competitive clothing, but you've got people still wanting to swim. And when Boris came out with, you know, kind of go open water swimming, it's a great sport, we did put a, you know, a promotion out there. Bojo says the water's open, which we got a little bit of grief for, but we were quite excited. The waters were open and suddenly there's a mad surge for wetsuits more mid to entry level and in bigger sizes. And fortunately our FD and operations director, David Lamb, he had the foresight to keep the product moving from the Far East. So we had ships come in and we had containers moving and so we did have stock, but we quickly sold out of largers and extra larges and some of the larger women's sizes. And we decided through lockdown, we were going to can thermal wetsuits. Let's not bother, you know, stay on track. And now we've had a huge demand for thermal wetsuits because everyone who got in the water, a lot of them are overcoming barriers. And the biggest barrier to triathlon and open water swimming is the open water and getting in that first time. And I've recently witnessed it with her spirit and what Mel Barry's doing, you know, to keep women engaged with sport. It's just once you get over that barrier and you've done that first time, you've done it and you're in it and you want to stay in it. And I think the whole open water and wild swimming community, and I think it's more just the Leisure Gold Challenge fraternity that's doing it, they just want to stay in that water. And the lakes are staying open and they're not going to close like they typically did because there's a grand swell of activity and users out there. And for us, we've ordered a lot more bigger size wetsuits. We changed our women's fit to be more generous in areas and there will be thermal wetsuits coming down the line. And two of our big suppliers have come back and said we need thermal wetsuits because people are going to be swimming longer. So it's massively changed. From our point of view, our bell curve looks very different on sizing, if nothing else.

Brilliant. And I think I've said this a few times, but when the pools closed, I really panicked and then got into the open water swimming and the wild swimming. And whether that was in the sea down in Cornwall or whether it was in the neen, I absolutely loved it. And I've said a number of times, next season, next spring, we should be doing this again. And we'll still keep a pool swim in there as well. But actually, I think the wild swimming will continue because I think it's just such a lovely thing to do. And, yeah, I can imagine it.

We were 68% up year to date on women's wetsuits.

Wow.

And if we could have got another 3,000 wetsuits in the last two months past, we would have sold them, which would have jumped it up again. I agree with you. And I think the open Wild swimming, whatever you're going to call it, has given us that freedom during the sense of lockdown and being told what we can, can't do. Face masks, you know, track and trace. Once you're in the water, it's kind of up to you. And I think it's delivered that as well.

Yeah, I think it's absolutely brilliant. And yeah, I think it's a. Hopefully it's a trend that continues to grow. And just finishing off on the swimming thing. A couple of other questions that kind of struck me. Knowing all of what you know about the swimming world, how would you suggest it's best for people to improve their swimming technique? Is it going for lessons? Is it swimming more often? Is it joining a swim club? If somebody said, I want to improve my swimming, what would the advice that you'd be that you'd give?

I think one of the first will be, well, can you really swim? And I'm not a great swimmer and that's why I designed the three five wetsuits, to help me swim as well as the other 85%. But I would say just go and get a damn good swim coach. Go and talk to swim smooth or whatever it may be, and just make sure you're swimming as efficiently as you can be or learn those little tricks and skills because there's no point doing yardage or junk yardage, in my opinion, if you're not doing it efficiently in the first place. It's like not learning to spell and trying to write a book. You're going to have errors all over it and you ain't going to get anywhere with it. So I would advise that. And then once you've learned the techniques of swimming, you have to join a club. And I'll say, don't join a swim club, join a tri club first, because they're not as competitive and as efficient as a true swim club is going to be. And you can start in the slower lane and work your way through. And you'll also get some great coaching advice along the way because the expectation won't be that you are an accomplished swimmer, it will be that perhaps you're learning and you're from, you know, 0 or 5 out of 10 or whatever it may be. And then I think it's a case of then you can put the hard yards in and do the volume. That's how I personally advise somebody.

Fantastic. And that, I mean, ties in with. So I was chatting to Joe Skipper on this podcast and he was saying that, you know, he spent. He wasn't Working during lockdown, he wasn't working on swim fitness at all. He was working only on technique, so that as and when he could up his swim fitness, he knew he was doing it in the right way. And then in terms of the group massively endorsed, that's one of the reasons why I've set up Tribathlon, because the tribe of people that you train with just massively improves your experience as well as your learning. And last question on swimming probably is in terms of goggles. I've got a pair of your Altair goggles. Absolutely love them. I think they're far and away the best goggles I've ever had. But do you think you'll go into the smart goggle market with displays and all that sort of stuff?

Yeah, I'd like to think we would. I think form are doing a great job, you know. Is it the most attractive goggle on the market? No. Could the goggle be better? Yeah, I'm sure it could, but, you know, I don't understand what they've got to integrate and molds in goggles are so expensive. You can't just switch and swap them around. We looked at it six years ago and there was a group out of California and we prototyped some goggles that the light came on left or right if you weren't swimming in line with the swim buoy. So you look at the swim boy, you press the side, then you swim and lights would come on. But it was just early stages and I just. You put electronics into water, which to me is just riddled with problems anyway. And you can imagine, you know, the cost of them and the warranties of them and you just think, I'd like to partner with somebody in it. I'd love to partner with somebody on smart goggles and maybe that opportunity will come for me to put the resource into it. It's not a skill set I have. We'd have to buy some really smart brains in and I just think right now we'd steer clear of it unless we've got a partnership. But, you know, I feel that way about many other products as well.

Fantastic. Well, what other products do you feel that way about?

I would love to revisit the shoe world one day. My time at Asics and Etonic and Brooks were treasured and I love to see what's happening with the alpha flies and the next percents and how others are trying to follow and, you know, I worked at Brooks in two, sorry, 1991, and I was telling people the benefits of a carbon Plate and shoes. And I was traveling the country selling that. And we had a full carbon plate in the Brooks Fusion and Fission and we had a half plate in the Magnum. Been there, done it, got the T shirt. So it's interesting how it's come back again and the size of the soles and how HOKA have changed thinking. And I still think there's plenty more to be done on that, but that is a huge investment. And the other one will be bikes. Maybe we'll go and poach some of the great brains in bike design that I know. And there's already a great friend, Martin Lier in the uk, who's got reap bikes, an outstanding bike. And this country has the brains to create some incredible fast carbon composite products. Especially in Derby, where we are. We're a hotbed for it. Yeah, I would love to venture into that as well one day.

Fantastic. Well, those both sound like amazing project, which I can see you're excited about and I can understand why that leads me nicely on to Huub. What bike? Tell me about how that came about.

Let me go back to those golden eggs. This is another one of those golden eggs. And my daughter looks after sponsorship, tells me off for saying yes, too much. But I keep looking for the golden eggs and we've been very lucky. We've seen some great ones. So there was a shift to sleeve tri suits and I could see that there's going to be a shift to understanding the body form and the aerodynamic benefits that a tri suit can bring to the performance of the athlete. And we concentrate too much on the bike and the drag of the bike was 8% on your overall, whereas your body is 80% of your drag. So I again, I know what I don't know and that is I haven't got an aerodynamics PhD degree, I'm not even a flamingo level in aerodynamics, never mind anything else. So I wanted to bring someone really, really smart in and I was aware of Dan Bigham and what he'd done. So I raised a conversation with Dan and he told me about this little cycling team that he's got a few mates trying to come together to have a go. So I said, well, I'll give you some soft goods, some hoodies and some jog pants and some luggage, those kind of things. And he agreed to help me out on the animoid project which is creating the fastest era tricu. So we did some work with Dan. The team, you know, got a little bit of notoriety. They did decent in their first World cup and Then he came back and said, you know, Dean, you said you'd help me a little bit more next year. What are you thinking, Dan? Well, would you, you know, be a name on the name of the team? And he'd XYZ, I think it was only about 10 grand. He came to it, which was still a big chunk of money. And that came about that 4 o' clock deadline for UCI. Jacob Tipper, who works on the team, came in and goes, I need you to send a check and I need you to design a shirt and I need you to do this. And it's got to be in by 4 o', clock, like you were having a laugh. So we did it quickly and Richard Baker and James over at wattbike, we contacted them, they had a sniff that they might be interested. And very quickly, who, what bike born. The jersey was born. And there was this team of four guys all living in Derby, supported by Derby College, said, we can do this. And we go, you know what? We think you can. And I love disrupting and I love causing trouble and I love being the underdog and these guys were the smart underdogs. And it was Dan's aerodynamics, you know, the training knowledge within the team physiology, everything came together. You got nuts. Johnny Wale, who's one of the most powerful riders ever, who they asked him to change the running order of the team pursuit. Why would you change the running order? It's been done like that for years. And he's like, yeah, I'm going to give that a go. And they gave it a go and it just, you know, it all came together in London at the World cup, where I was so lucky to be there that they beat GB and they beat every nation and they won the World cup in London in 2018. Team. And what a party night that was. And that, to me, just showed the power of knowledge to the underdog that if you're smart and you've got what it takes and you're nimble and willing to change and have fresh ideas, you can do it. And off the back of that was the whole Darbados thing that came with it as well.

So explain Darbados for those people that don't know.

So the People's Republic of Darbados, as named by Dan Bigham, it came about. We bought the Jensen Button Triathlon to Derby five years ago and Jensen was supporting and bringing it to Derby and his team, which was great. And I remember his PR manager coming up, Andy Bell, and he just said, yeah, we're coming to Darbados as a bit of a joke, and it kind of stuck. So he was saying, I'm coming to Darbados, and Darbados misses you, Andy. And so we just said to Dan, you know, you're not allowed to race for any nation because of UCI rules and the silly regulations they had. And I said, you're racing for Darbados. And he was like, oh, yeah, the People's Republic of Barbados. And so I trademarked it and just for fun, but we did some T shirts and we got a cycle jersey and it created its own movement and the boys would be on TV talking about racing for Darbados. And we got our own flag and we flew it on the cathedral. It brought real humor as to what was a serious issue of not being allowed to race and being slightly pushed aside by British cycling. But it kept us all smiling. And it's great to go to races and see people walking around in a Darbanos T shirt. Just absolutely love it.

Fantastic. And sticking with cycling and the cause, you guys have now got a fantastic range of, of cycling clothing and obviously your triathlon clothing as well. What would you suggest that, again, an age group does to improve the aerodynamics other than obviously changing the bike? You mentioned that you say that 80% is down to the person. What can people do to improve their aerodynamics? What have you seen the biggest gains?

Well, I think bike fit is most important and you need a bike fitter that isn't going to put you in the most extreme position and say, go do it, because my retool system says that's the way I think there's, you know, they perhaps need to have, you know, a bit more biomechanics knowledge and physio knowledge and just an understanding of what the body can do on a bike. And some of us are more flexible than others. And, you know, I certainly love what Fizik do with different types of flexibility in their saddles. And get your position dialed in and it may be a little bit uncomfortable. I saw a 220 magazine test recently. It said Huub Swim skin felt a little bit claustrophobic and uncomfortable. Yeah, speed is uncomfortable and it's a sacrifice and you may have to put up with it. But if you train it, then you get used to it and it's no longer uncomfortable. And then I'd be saying, look at your drag on the front. How narrow can you get? Look at your rolling resistance. You know, do you buy that new Dura Ace crank set or do you invest in a damn good set of Victoria Corsa speeds with latex tubes on a really good set of wheels. I'd be going for the wheels because they're not in contact with the ground, you know, and the other bits, you know, is, is there a. Is there a bit of fashion in some of that? Sure, there's performance benefits, but they, they get smaller the higher up the chain you go. And then I think the biggest one is, like I say, your clothing, you know, make sure your number's not big and flopping around in the wind behind you. Make sure your helmet works for you, because all the aero helmets don't work for all people trying to be aero. Make sure your clothing fits you. And by the time this goes out, the world will probably be aware that we're launching one tri suit in two different speeds. So we're going to have an Ironman speed which will be 18 to 21 miles an hour, and we're going to have a 70.3 speed which is going to be 20 to 24 miles an hour. Because when you're looking at drag, you have a drag crisis where something really performs well at a certain speed of fabric. And we tested them in our Fabric Tunnel partnership in Northampton, so we know that it will work for a window of speed. So we're now putting fabrics into suits to work in that window. Going and buying a tri suit that says it's fastest in Kona at a 15° your angle. Well, not everyone gets to race in Kona, not everyone's at a 15 degree your angle. And we're all different and we're all unique. So for us it's going to be, you know, don't over reg how fast you are. Do you really need that disc wheel? Think about those benefits. But a good bike fit will be able to help you and I would strongly say, if you can afford it, go and have a Dan Big and More Similar aero test session and understand your CDA and how you can get that down and how even things like shrugging your shoulders when you're on a fast straight can make a difference to you. There'll be lots of layers further that these experts will be able to tell you. But Su is so, so, so vital. Massively say it's 80% brilliant.

Thank you. And I noticed that you have a Derby county cycling outfit, don't you? Are you going to be making a Nottingham Forest one as well as a Forest fan?

Yeah, we've already done that.

Have you?

Yes. So there's a ride called. Well, there's a ride in Derby, it's called Ramsterdam, it's a charity ride where all the football clubs come together and you ride to Amsterdam when you raise money. And we did it two years ago. It's outstanding event. And of course, we wanted to make sure the Derby county riders looked the best they could be. So we did the Ramserdam kit and the Knott's Forest guys were like, we're not being outdone by you because you look better than us. And they go, well, of course we do. We're from Derby. And so they got special permission from Forest for us to work with them on creating their charity kit. And it looks stunning. We then started having talks with Umbro and they gave us license to do the Derby county kit. And hopefully we'll have more football kits coming. And I do need to open that dialogue again with Knott's Forest because as much as there are great, great Derby fans out there, there's still quite a few Forest fans out there as well. We need to look after everyone.

Well, that's a more positive answer than I was expecting, actually.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we can't discriminate when it comes to cycling sales.

And looking at your website, you've got these mystery wetsuits and mystery tri suits. What's that all about?

Well, going back to. If we're going to bring products back off people, you know, we need to wait to move them. So that's our X demo. And then what we'll often find is we may just have a few odd sizes left of an Archimedes 3 or 2 or a Varmin. And there's nothing worse for me than just putting something up on the side and someone's, I really want that suit, but you haven't got it in my size. So we just said, well, if we part that into a mystery box and someone just told us what size they were, we can cherry pick them and make sure they get a damn good deal. And it also allows, if a retailer is struggling with some odd sizes, we can swap them out, you know, and if we've had to, being stopped by from somebody and move it around, it just gives us that vibe. So just tell us the size you are and we'll give you a damn good deal. And it's been working incredibly well.

Well, it creates some mystery and some intrigue, doesn't it, so?

Well, it does. Apart from when the customer rings up and says, in my mystery box, can you make sure I get an Archimedes 3? No, no, it's a lucky dip.

Buy the Archimedes 3. And actually, so you just mentioned the Varman. I noticed that all of your wetsuits begin with the letter A except the varman. What was special about the Varman.

That was special because the staff in here were saying, dean, stop calling suits beginning with the letter A. Because when we're running reports or taking orders, it's a nightmare. And I kind of get that. But that suit was a celebration of the two finest swimmers in itu, which was Richard Varga and Henry Schoeman. And it was just really to say, you know, thanks guys, and it is going to be, you know, our first suit not beginning with the letter A. And they both have been with me for a long time, so it was a tick to the hat to them. And also to see if I can get out of my habit of beginning everything with the letter A and move on.

And have you now kicked the habit or are we going to go back to A afterwards?

Oh, no, there's loads more A's coming.

And are there any. So obviously I'm reading Ross's book at the moment. I've mentioned Sean Conway's book. Are there any other great books that you've kind of, you've either listened to or read or any other sources of that either you found really helpful for you or you find yourself recommending to other people regularly?

Yeah, there's two books and one therapy session. I'd say two therapy sessions. My favorite all time book that makes me want to cry at the end is Shoe Dog.

Do you know what? I nearly mentioned that a minute ago when you were talking about wanting to get into the shoe world. It is fantastic, isn't it?

It's an amazing insight. So many other people have written books about it and I've read them, but that was just how it really happened. And what's happened in their personal life and the tribulations and also the fact I worked for asics. I knew a lot of what they were talking about, you know, with Onitsuka and everything else, and I just found that truly inspirational and you know, I doubted it would ever happen again. But then you look at what's happening with Gym Shark and you go, you know, this probably could happen again on such a scale. But I just, I just found that phenomenal. And I'm not Phil Knight and never could be anywhere near 10% as good as he is. But I look at Professor Hoob is my Bill Bowman in Albie Phil Knight, if you like. And I just see the similarities of how they were in their early days as to the way we are now. We're still small, obviously, compared to their minuscule. So that book, I was recommended, a book by Hugh Brayshaw when he was running the sweatshop before he went to the London Marathon. And that was called who Moved My Cheese?

Oh, yes.

Ironically, he said to me, you know, are you coming in next week, Dean? I said, no, I'm off to Japan to do some testing with asics, with Christian Malcolm, the sprinter. You've got to read this book. It's called who Moved My Cheese? Just read it on the plane. So I got it and I read it, and on the way back, I was telling Christian about it, and I went into the ASICS office the next Monday and lost my job. And I was like, thank you, Hugh Braysher, because who Made My Cheese? Yeah, I was down and I was crying on the way home, and I thought I'd lost everything, but it was like, you know what? I can't hem and haul. I've got to sniff and scurry and go and find something else. So my company I set up was called Cheese Marketing, which was a stupid name at the time, but there was Cheese Marketing set up. And then the other thing, I found that because I'd work for other people and things fail. Some work when hoobs start to move in the right direction. It's always moved from day one in the right direction. I kind of got imposter syndrome, and I don't know if you've heard of it, but it was like, do I deserve to be here? Why am I here? Things shouldn't be this good. The product shouldn't be so great. I'm not the brightest in the room, and I really struggled with that a lot. And I went to see a lady who's got a book coming out, Estelle, and she helped deal with some of that, and she peeled back the layers and it went back to childhood and school and things. Nothing negative, just small instances that had happened in classrooms and stuff and helped me get over that massively, which has probably turned me into a copy. Cocky gobshite. I don't know, you know, ask my friends what they think, but that. That certainly helped me. And there'll be books around that. Imposter syndrome, which probably should definitely read.

Fantastic. What was the lady's name? Astel Reid. Astel Reid. Okay. Fantastic. That's brilliant. And I love the. The I know not comparison between Hube and Nike from Shoe Dog, because I can absolutely see it. I think it's. It was a fan. It is a fantastic book. It's an incredible story, but equally, you guys are going and doing very similar things. Will be in a slightly different world. But I can, I can understand why you're trying to get into shoes as well, because it is an incredible story and yeah, it must be a huge amount of fun. And so, last question, because you've been incredibly generous with your time, is if we were sitting here a year from now, what's going to have happened for you to be really happy with the progress that you've made at huub?

For me to be really happy. By the time this is broadcast, we'll have gone through a crowdfund process. Crowdfunding with crowdcube. And I just want to. And that's all for good reasons because we've seen so many doors open, opportunities and cycling being one of them through, through the lockdown and semi post. But I want to make sure that if we do it, we do it properly into the best we can do. And that's going to mean gearing up the business, strengthening customer services, bringing systems in. So in a year's time, I'd like to think that that was successful and when this goes out, the world will know or not. And that everyone who's in this business is immensely happy coming to work, that Mondays are great days. And while we'll probably have made mistakes over the years, and I set a few people on customer service unintentionally, we're always trying to do the right thing. And as long as I know my team will look at me and know that I know they're giving their best and they know that I'm doing the best for them, then that's going to make me immensely happy. Sure, I want our product to be regarded continually as the very best in the business and the fastest in the business, but I just want to make sure we've got a really cool environment to work in. And as I say, Monday mornings are, in this world, safe, but also Monday mornings, you know, you actually come to work with a smile on your face and not dread.

Fantastic. Brilliant. Well, I'm sure, I've no doubt that it would be a great place to be, to be at work. So congratulations on doing that, Dino. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. What a brilliant story. So much good advice in there as well. Thank you so much and I can't wait to see who continue to go from strength to strength.

No, I appreciate it. And anyone who's listening knows us and supports our products. I just want to say thank you. You know, you are what keeps us going and without belief in us as a company, no matter who it may be, athletes, elites, age groupers and general users, we exist to make the better product for you. So thank you. If you're listening, thank you for having me on and let me take up all your oxygen.

It's been an absolute pleasure. Dino, thank you very much. Sure you'll agree. What a great guy. So enthusiastic about this sport, about helping athletes within the sport, about developing it. I love the insights and the stories, particularly around how he got into founding HOOB and some of the success stories with the likes of of Ross Edgeley and the Brownlees. So just incredible. But also some great advice there in terms of picking the right wetsuit and future innovations in the world of swimming. So I'm sure you'll agree. Brilliant guy, very funny and I certainly will be checking out Huub more going forward.

Forward.

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