Developing an IRON-MIND with Helen Davis

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Tribathlon podcast finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

Collectively, those small steps build into a bigger picture for you, and that can spur you on and help you feel, you know, more competent in what you're doing.

That was Helen Davies, and this episode is Developing an Iron Mind. Helen Davis is an accomplished swimmer and a sports psychologist that's renowned for working with some incredible athletes. And probably the most well known is former pro ironman Lucy Gossage. And based on the success that Helen had with Lucy, together they created an online learning platform called Iron Mind, which helps you kind of understand how you can use sports psychology to improve your training, improve your races, and getting yourself into the right mindset. I've been through the Iron Mind learning, and I really loved it. It gave me some really brilliant tips on how I could improve my mindset and some really great exercises to work through to kind of tease out, you know, what those limiting beliefs are, what you say to yourself at different times during the race or different times during your training. And I found it a really, really helpful process to go through and understand more about my psychology while I'm training and competing. And so I wanted to chat to Helen about that, about the work that she's done with people like Lucy, about the work that's gone into Iron Mind, things like those limiting and irrational beliefs, and what should you be focusing on to get the greatest success? And that's whether you're, you know, turning up to a race to compete in it or to complete it. You know, it doesn't matter what level of athlete you're at, the more you can improve your psychology, the more you're likely to get better results. And that's why so many of the pro athletes out there are going to Helen to improve their own sports psychology, even when they're kind of already at the top of their game. So I wanted to explore these ideas with Helen, but I also really wanted to chat to her because she had complete career change in her mid-40s. She went from being a school teacher to retraining and switching to this sports psychology career, which is obviously blossoming. But it's a really brave move to give up the career that you've built for yourself by the time you're 40. But also a brave move to realize that, you know, actually what I'm doing isn't really what. What I set out, what I want to do it for the next 20 years. And while she loved teaching, she knew that she had a passion for sports psychology and fitness through her swimming. And I think it's incredibly brave move, but a brilliant move and something that more people should be doing, really trying to explore and try and find what their unique ability is. Because as they say, if you love your job, you never work a day in your life. And trying to find a job or career or a business that you can really follow your passion on is an incredibly powerful thing, you know, because your love of it is greater than somebody that's just doing it as a job. You're likely to innovate and create a more successful business or career when you genuinely have a passion for something. So I really wanted to explore that career change with her. So I know you're going to love this conversation with Helen Davies, the incredible sports psychologist. This podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfood. Now I've been a big advocate of wheat grass for many years, but I only in the last year or so switched to having fresh wheatgrass, wheat grass that's then frozen as opposed to the powdered stuff. And I found that to improve my health even more. Now I've been a big advocate of wheatgrass because I know it's kept me fit and healthy. Because when I've had spells where I've stopped taking it, I've started picking up the bugs and colds and things like that again, which I never seem to get when I'm taking wheatgrass. I know it improves my immune system, my health, but also gives me more energy and faster recovery. 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This podcast is also brought to you by the Tribeathlon app, the best place to find your next event, whether that's a running race, whether it's a triathlon, whether it's a duathlon, whether it's an obstacle based race. The most comprehensive search facility is on the Tribeathlon app, which you can download from Tribeathlon.com. So, Helen, welcome to the tribeathlon podcast. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm really looking forward to getting, getting to know you a little bit more and talking about the concept of an iron mind. But before we do that, do you want to tell people, for people that don't know who you are or what you do, want to tell people about where you've come from, about your story and what it is that you do for a living?

Yeah. Well, hi, thanks, Charlie, and thanks very much for having me on the podcast. Looking forward to talking to you today. So, yeah, my name is Helen Davis and I'm currently working as an applied sports psychologist. I work for myself, but prior to that I trained to be a teacher, having done a psychology degree many, many years ago, too many to mention. And I, yeah, and I got into primary school teaching and I worked in primary education for about 25 years. I had various roles as a teacher. PE was my main subject that I trained in, but I taught all sort of 12, 13 subjects as it is in primary education at the time. I moved to America and I lived in America for a bit where I did some work in business and in schools, bringing kind of volunteers read to children who were kind of reading below grade level in the public schools in Boston, which was very interesting and a bit of a change from working in this country in education. And I had three children. I still carried on doing a bit of teaching around that time. And I suppose I'd got to the point where I was in my early 40s, I was, it was feeling a bit stale in teaching and I always had this, always had this thought, is there something else that I could do? And I just didn't know what it was. So I started looking, I started getting curious about things, thinking, what else is there out there that I can do? I've only ever been a teacher, what else could I do? And it's a kind of big void to look at. It was quite a scary place to be. But it was the niggle in my head that kept saying, what else could I do? That kind of drove me to find something else.

Brilliant. And where did you go from teaching then?

So I, well, at the time I was actively involved with Cambridge Triathlon Club. I was swimming with A lot of very high level triathletes and I was very interested and followed their careers and followed the races that they did. And sport has always been a massive part of my life. And as I was training with these triathletes, you know, we have a big heavy training session, we then go for brunch and we would have conversations about their performances, about their thoughts about triathlon. And I just was very interested in the principles that they thought about swim, biking and running and the differences in their kind of attitudes towards them. And I'd done some cognitive behavior therapy when I'd worked on a parenting program in the past and so talked to them a little bit about it and they said, oh, you seem really interested in that. And I sort saying, well, I think you could apply these principles to how you feel about your, about triathlon. And so I just did a bit of googling one day and came across a master's in sport and exercise psychology which didn't even exist when I did my psychology degree all those years previously. So I remember now the day I read the kind of the course and I just thought that sounds fascinating, apart from the statistics, I have to say the statistics bit didn't particularly excite me. But the rest of it, I just thought that this, this, this sounds just the kind of thing I would like to do. And I never ever thought I would ever go back to studying. It was not something that I'd contemplated doing. But reading this course, I thought that is what I'd like to do. So of course I went and told my triathlon friends and they all encouraged me and egged me on to do it. And I had a very encouraging husband, fortunately, who said, why not? So I, I just, I filled out the form and applied to do it. And I remember now again, a very scary place to be. Coming off the train at Staffordshire University and walking into a room full of people and looking around. And of course they were all about 22, which was a bit of a shock to my system when I was in my early 40s, but I sat down and the journey kind of started from there.

Fantastic. And we'll come back to that career change because I really want to talk about that because it was a clearly a brave step. Did you just jump straight out? Did you give up teaching to go to university then or did you kind of do one both at the same time?

No, I did both at the same time for quite a while. So I was working part time as a teacher and I was very, I had a great headteacher who was very flexible in terms of the kind of the various roles that I had within the school. So when I first started doing my Masters, I was teaching three days a week. So when I'd looked at the hours for the Masters, it was distance learning. It was. I think they said it was about eight or nine hours a week. So I thought, oh, I think I'm going to be able to manage both of these things. So I actually did most of my Masters, I did both things. They ran alongside each other. It was hard work. I mean, it really was hard work. You know, obviously I have a family with three children. I get up very early in the morning and try and get work done before doing the school run, before then going to school or going or doing Master's work. And it was definitely challenging. And what I found was that the more I got into doing the Masters and the more I talked to people about the things that I was learning, the more people were interested and curious about what I was learning and started saying, well, you know, could you work with me? Could you try and help me? And obviously I hadn't kind of really finished my training at that point. So I said to them, well, I'm very happy to share what I'm doing, but, you know, I'm not qualified yet. But I started having some just conversations with people, you know, practicing as if they were my clients, how I presented myself as a sports psychologist and I would get feedback from them and ask them how they felt I was doing. And so I kind of was practically learning on the job as I finished my training. And once you've done a Master's, in order to be a sport and exercise psychologist, you then have to do two years of what's called supervised practice, where you're under supervision from a qualified sports psychologist and you have to work in different areas within sports psychology. So you have to do a research project, a PhD level, you have to give presentations and educate in sports psychology, you have to work with one to one clients. You have to work in a variety of different sports in disability sport, a range of different levels in sport, there's an awful lot of requirements that you have to do within those two years. During that time, I found that I was getting more and more work in sports psychology. I think I was very fortunate. In the area that I live in, there were not many sports psychologists at all. And so people came to me and said, you know, we'd like to use your services. And it got to the point where I just didn't find it manageable. I found it very difficult balancing the teaching with the sports psychology work that I was getting. And so I then took the plunge and said, right, I'm going to stop teaching and go full time as an applied sports psychologist. Which was an exciting moment, but it was a bit of a scary moment too.

And it seems to have paid dividends because you've, I mean, you've worked with some pretty successful athletes, haven't you?

Yeah, I've been very fortunate, I think, you know, Lucy Gossage, who obviously is an extremely well known Ironman athlete, you know, I was very fortunate to know her and swim and train with her and she was one of the first people who I worked with. But I've also worked with other athletes who, you know, helping them prepare for Commonwealth Games, World Championships, helping some people prepare for Tokyo, hopefully in 2021. So. But from my point of view, I enjoy working with any athlete who's at any level. For me, it's just trying to help people get the best out of themselves. So, you know, I work with people who are recreational athletes who sometimes don't compete at all, who just want to kind of improve and get better at their mindset, I'd say. And to people who are preparing for an Olympic game. So it's very varied and very different.

Brilliant. Well, certainly we're going to come on to speak more about Lucy and Iron Mind in due course, but I just want to go back and think about that career change because I think particularly given the year that we've all had, there's been, there must be a lot of people out there thinking, is this it? Am I really going to stick with this career or this job for the rest of my working life? How easy was it to go off and do a Master's while you were working? And how much was there any psychological exercises that you went through to help you make that leap into making a career out of it?

Do you know? You know, it was difficult. I think learning about the psychological tools that I was learning in the master's degree meant that I helped to apply them to myself and I particularly used them with my swimming at the time, actually I felt that I was certainly at a point with my swimming where my mindset was not helping me in quite a number of different areas. And so it was really fascinating kind of learning all this stuff at university and then being able to apply it myself. And I think that was a real driver. But because I was seeing change and I was seeing progress with that, it kind of, it kept me so motivated to carry on learning What I was doing, I was so enjoying learning what I was doing that I kind of didn't mind getting up at 4:30 in the morning and 5am to get assignments done because I was fascinated by the material that I was, that I was learning. And again, I think that was quite a surprise to me because, you know, I remember leaving university back in the day thinking, I'm never studying. Yeah, I'm not going to do that. And so I think it just goes to show that, you know, you can make changes and when you find something that you really love doing, you know, it means that, you know, I sacrificed less sleep for a few years while I did it and I was quite happy to do that because it was fun and I was learning.

And you've perhaps found your why, which is something that we might want to come back to with regards to the sports side of things later on. If somebody, you know, if somebody was thinking about making a career change, knowing what you know, around psychology, is there any advice that you would give them for what, you know, what they could do to make that step?

I think one of the things I would say is, or that I certainly did is I didn't try to overthink it too much and now I do. I think it's also fair to say I was in a very fortunate position in that I was able to stop. You know, I had a 25 year teaching career behind me and financially I was able to stop and have a go at doing something else. And I had a husband who had a secure job. So I think, you know, I appreciate that not everybody is in that position and I felt very fortunate that I was. I also think, I certainly would say it's being a bit brave. You know, taking steps into something new is always going to be a challenge and difficult. So, you know, knowing that you're going to have to be a bit brave and it might feel a bit uncomfortable and it might be a bit difficult and there are going to be challenges along the way, enabled me to, I guess take, take those steps and accept I am, I am going to have to be a bit brave here. And there are a lot of unknowns and I don't, I don't know how it's going to go. But you know, I'm one of those things that a lot of people say to me, where's your vision with it? What are you going to do with it? And again, I didn't have one. My philosophy was very much I'm just going to see where this takes me and if I Enjoy it. I'm going to carry on enjoying it. And if I'm not, then I'll maybe take a different path and go in a different direction. So I didn't think about it a huge amount. It was just I followed my heart, you know. And again, I would say that's another thing I would say to people is, you know, follow your heart. If it excites you, then, you know, be a bit brave and see where it takes you.

Well, I think that's, that's great advice, isn't it? And I think if you find something that you're passionate about, then almost always you will make it work as a career because you're willing to get up early and do those things that somebody that isn't as passionate about the same subject won't do. So, yeah, I think that's fantastic. And you mentioned about swimming in there. You're quite an accomplished swimmer yourself, aren't you? So tell me a little bit about your swimming background.

Well, yes, swimming is very much part of my life. I certainly identify as a swimmer. I can't imagine my life without swimming. As a teenager I did the whole kind of competitive swimming in the pool. However, I always had a bit of an ongoing battle with my parents. I wanted to swim more than they let me. And so I think I definitely have a sense of unfulfilled potential as a teenager and not quite knowing where swimming could have taken me. Maybe that's been a driver for myself as a master swimmer. But I have pretty much continued swimming throughout my whole life. When I have my children, I, you know, I kind of dipped in and out a bit, but it's been a real constant. The competitive side of swimming is something that I absolutely love and I'm a very active master swimmer. I, you know, do go to national champs every year. I've been to European Championships, world championships and the master swimming community is something that adds a huge amount of value to my life and it's something I can't imagine doing. So lockdown and Covid has had to really alter my swimming goals for 2020, but I'm excited for continuing to compete as a swimmer, moving forwards because it's something I just love doing.

Didn't you have a. I can't remember what it was, but didn't you have a particular swimming goal for this year that you earmarked?

I did, yes. So I. Well, one of the benefits of moving into a new age group in swimming is that they were in five year age bands. So in 2020, in January 2020, I would have, I moved into the 50 to 54 age group, although I was still 49. So I was kind of a young person in my age group and I got very, very close to the British record. So I was targeting the British record for 100 breaststroke and I really had invested a lot of time. I went to a training camp in January. I, you know, I was working in the gym, which is something I've never really done before. And I was really excited to kind of see where it could take me. And I managed to get one swimming race in and I was, I think it was 4:10 away from the record, so I was getting closer. And then lockdown happened obviously, and Covid. So whether there's going to be any swimming meets that I can try and achieve that in early 2021, I don't know. But of course new people are moving into the age group all the time. So the record may be gone, but I'm still going see if I can kind of push boundaries and go quicker than I've ever gone for 100 breaststroke because I've been swimming times, you know, in, in my age 48, 49 that I never saw as a teenager. So it's made quite a difference.

That's amazing, isn't it? And, and what do you think? What do you put down, what do you put it down to? The fact that you're getting faster and faster as, you know, as, as you get older.

I think I've really worked on my technique. My breaststroke technique is very different to how it was when I raced as a teenager. I swim more now than I did when I was a teenager. I've trained more and yeah, I suppose I take a more active interest in the stroke and how I can develop it. I race more as well, so I think the more you race, the better you get at competing. But I also put a lot of, you know, sort of success, I guess, in my breaststroke down to changing my mindset and what I learned sort of during my master's degree and how it has such a big influence over performance.

Fantastic. Well, I mean, I think this year has definitely been a challenging year for swimming, hasn't it? But I for one. Have you been open water swimming to offset the lack of pools?

Yes, I have. And again, this has been something very new to me. I probably started open water swimming six, seven years ago now and would do compete in the summer. I'm very much a summer open water swimmer. But this year I've taken up the challenge that a few friends posed to me and continued Swimming into the winter. So I have been going sort of twice a week in lockdown to the river in Cambridge and I've taken off my wetsuit and just swam in a swimming costume as well. And I'm embracing winter swimming at the moment, which psychologically has been very challenging for me as somebody who was very fixed about I'm never going to be a winter swimmer. Yeah. I've surprised myself with how I've managed it so far and I'm actually enjoying it. I'm enjoying it.

I think one of the great positives to come out of this year is discovering open water swimming. I mean, I'd always swim in the sea a bit, but I certainly wouldn't have been swimming, swimming in the river. But I've really enjoyed. I have to admit, you've gone further into the year than I have. I've now bailed out of the winter, the river swimming. But it's been brilliant and I know that next year I will definitely look to keep some open water swimming, even when the pools are open, because I think it's been really, really good fun, actually.

Yeah. I mean, I write for Outdoor Swimmer magazine. I write sports psychology articles. And so I'm always writing about the psychology of open water swimming, winter swimming, the cold temperatures dropping, etc. So I thought I should put a bit of experience myself in there and give it a go.

Fantastic. Well, I think it's been a real positive from this year. So coming on to psychology then. So I want to think, I suppose what I wanted to do to start with is think about from an athlete's point of view, what sort of things should they be doing at different stages of their training? So let's start with, while they're kind of in the training process or maybe even before they've decided what they want to do, are there any specific activities or things that they should be doing at that stage in their training?

Well, I think one of the first things I always say to people is start noticing, start noticing and start listening. So that might be before or during a training session, but, you know, the inner voice inside your head is chatting away to you all the time and saying different things. It's really increasing self awareness, your self awareness about what does my voice tell me, what does, you know, what is that dialogue that's going on? Is it a helpful dialogue to me or is it an unhelpful dialogue? What do I notice? What do I spot? Do I notice things that I say to myself at certain times and get really, really good at noticing? Because what you'll probably find is that you start noticing habits that you have in your thinking and patterns in your thinking, and you begin to recognize, oh, you know, I tell myself that story quite a lot, or I say this quite a lot when I go into cold or whatever it might be. And I think that self awareness piece is really important. And it's a difficult bit and it's a lot that I think some people miss or they kind of reject that bit and just say, I want some tools. I want some tools to try and improve. But actually that first stage is really important because we're all different. We're all motivated by different things. We all come from different histories and different places. And so our voices are all talking to us in different ways. So learning about that is a really, really good first step.

And is that you referring to what I've heard you talk about before, which is limiting beliefs? Is that the same thing?

Well, it may be that you notice that you have some limiting beliefs as part of that, listening to the conversations that you have. So yes, it could be. You know, generally speaking, people experience or have beliefs that they probably they might feel hindering them in some way, not helping them in some way, and that could be part of a dialogue that they're having with themselves. You know, as well, you know, some people may not identify that or may find that quite hard to identify. And I guess that's my role and job as a sports psychologist to get to know the person, to really delve into, well, what kind of thinker are you? How do you think and try to discover whether it's a helpful or unhelpful thing for them?

Because I think that you touched on something there which I have a little bit of experience on in that. So I've been and done a few different Tony Robbins events. And one of the things that he talks about in there is identifying your limiting beliefs. And then there's the firewalk and all of that crazy stuff. But it's really about trying to identify limiting beliefs and then working on them to try and build strategies and habits to get rid of them. But I know, particularly the second time I did awake in the Giant, so I unleash the power within. I. It was. I didn't go in knowing that I'd got a particular. First time I went in, I knew I was three stone overweight and I was, you know, working too many hours and wasn't seeing my family. So I knew there was things that I needed to work on. Second time it wasn't. There wasn't so much that I knew that I needed to work on. Have you got any advice on how people can identify those limiting beliefs?

Well, one of the things that I would do is conversations with people is the obvious one in terms of just talking and having discussions, getting them to maybe jot down things that they think they have, that noticing piece. Quite often I ask people to note those things down in a diary. I have some questionnaires and things as well that I can give people, which I identify belief systems as well as part of that. So I guess, you know, wider conversations, exploration, self awareness. Again, I might use some kind of, you know, diagnostic as well and that starts to build up a picture of what those belief systems might be.

Right, okay, brilliant. Because I know, I think it's great, once you've identified the limiting to belief to be able to work on it, isn't it? But it is often, yeah, it sounds like the conversations are the key to helping you find what they are.

Yes, it is. It's knowing what people's thinking types are, you know, and generally speaking, they can fall into different kind of categories or different areas. And so I would explore those and find out where people have a natural tendency to fall in terms of their thinking types. And that's a really good starting point for then identifying what the belief is. But it's hard. I mean, it's not, it's not easy stuff that's just gonna, you know, you're just gonna find out in five minutes. It can take a bit of exploration to do that.

Right, okay. And so what we're starting to touch on now is something that you guys, that you created with Lucy Gossage, which is Iron Mind, which I've had, you know, the experience of going through and I thought was a really great program. I thought it was not just for people that want to do an Ironman, but just for psychology in everyday life, whether it be, you know, sport or not. So I really, really enjoyed it. How did that come about, working with Lucy to create Iron Mind? What was the thinking behind that?

Well, again, it wasn't really planned or anything. I suppose I work with Lucy towards I guess what she would call the tail end of her career. But actually in that time she was about to transition back into going to work part time again as a cancer doctor. And she actually ended up winning eight out of her 13 long distance events during that time when she was working part time and not a full time pro. So she was very, very interested in psychology. And obviously she was part of me knowing that I was training and learning about it. And she was very curious about it and really felt that she had some limiting beliefs, particularly in relation to her swimming, and felt it could help her. And as a full time pro, I guess she was always looking at ways to make improvements in every area that she could. And psychology was just one of those areas. So when it got to the point of, you know, she stopped being a full time professional, she went back and started working as a doctor. I think she recognized that a lot of the principles that she'd worked on with me, she was then applying as a doctor in hospitals and that it really can have a wider impact than just on sport. And I felt, I think she also felt she wanted to give something back to the sport that she had spent so many years, you know, enjoying and being part of, and really felt that psychology was a powerful story that she could tell about her experience to other people and that hopefully that they could learn and benefit from as well. So it was, I think it was an afternoon over a cup of coffee in the garden one summer and we just kind of formulated this idea of how about telling people a bit about the work that we did together and sharing that with others. And it evolved from there.

Brilliant. Well, I think it's a great resource that people can use regardless of their level. As you say, it's applicable to a pro athlete, but it's also applicable to somebody wanting to do their first Ironman or anything else really. What do you think the aspects of the work that you did with Lucy were the ones that made the biggest impact to her?

Well, I think that the work on beliefs actually, and it's a lot of what I do in, you know, in work with other athletes as well, is identifying beliefs that might be holding people back and the types of thinker that they are. And I think her learning the type of thinker that she was and what she could then do to try and, you know, dispute the beliefs that she was having and come up with more kind of rational philosophy around her swimming, sort of more realistic viewpoints than she was having. You know, one of the things that Lucy talks about quite openly a lot was that she kind of felt like she was kind of blagging her way through a lot of the time. You know, it's like she didn't have a history of sport when she was younger. So, you know, she'd look at the start list and think, well, you know, how can I really be there with these people? You know, and had, I guess, you know, a lot of self doubt around that and you know, just through various exercises of her recognizing. I mean, one of the things I did with her was get her to write her cv, you know, which obviously, as we know, is an extremely impressive one. But you know, the evidence, and it's very much looking at evidence and having an evidence based approach around it. Well, the evidence is there in black and white on the piece of paper. You know, nobody can take these triumphs away from you. And I think she always kind of found a reason of, well, she got lucky or, you know, that there was this sense of, and it was bringing a sense of locus of control to her that I'm in control of this and I'm the one that's made these things happen. That was really powerful for her.

Brilliant and touching on the word control there. You also talk about in Iron Mind, controlling the things that the controllables, don't you?

Yes, I mean it's. Controlling the controllables is one of those kind of phrases that you hear an awful lot, I guess, in psychology. But the bottom line is that they're very useful and they're very useful for athletes. Is that often when athletes find that they're experiencing unwanted emotions, they're feeling uncomfortable about something, they're feeling pressure. Often the things they will be thinking about are things that are not within their control. And so that elevates anxiety, elevates emotion, it makes people feel more uncomfortable and worried about it. And those feelings of pressure can feel a lot greater. So by helping athletes to focus on the things that they are in control of gives much more a sense of, say, control and more comfortable feelings for an athlete and can then help them manage the situation that they're in better.

Well, and this is a perfect example of how this stuff applies to real life as well as just as well as the sport, isn't it? Because, you know, if you want, the probably the quickest route to become unhappy is spending your life worrying about the things that you can't control. So. But if you want to be happy, you focus on the things that you can control. So I think that's, that's brilliant advice. Give me some more ideas around what we should be doing during that training phase.

Well, I think one of the, you know, another question that I ask athletes a lot, you know, what are the psychological challenges that you will experience, let's say in a triathlon, you know, where if you're looking at the time frame of your race, you know, it's very unlikely that you're going to have a level where everything is going great all of the time, you know, what areas do you say are. Maybe it might be your weaker moments where you're more vulnerable psychologically. You know, when, I don't know, the pain kicks in as you start your run or, you know, you get out of the water and you're struggling with your wetsuit, you know, where are those moments that you know that you psychologically might be a bit vulnerable? And that's a really good starting point because then you can say, okay, well, let's zone in on that. Let's think about that moment and decide, you know, what might be helpful for you then. So a lot of psychology is preparation for those moments. So it may be that we've looked at their self talk and it could be a cue word or something that can help them in that moment. When it comes, it may be that we plan a course of action that they can take if something arises, if there's something that might derail them in the moment that might, you know, come up that they're not prepared for how they're going to manage that and how they might cope with it. It's not just triathlon. I do this in all different sports. You know, every sport has different psychological challenges. So identifying what they are and then working and trying out techniques within your training program to see how they work for you. You know, just like anything, if you want to get better at something, you know, it's important to practice it. You might try it once and you might think, well, that didn't make any difference. You know, well, okay, does that mean you then just dismiss it and don't try it again or do you pursue it? I guess one of the things that's an important part of my role is I can say to an athlete, these are tried and tested techniques that research has shown can be effective for athletes. I'm not saying they're going to definitely work for you, but I'm saying give them a try. Because there's evidence to say that they can make a difference if you put in time and patience and effort into doing it. But you might find that of them resonates more than the other. And if you find that that one resonates with you, then we'll go with that one for a bit and we'll see how it works. It may be that the following year you try a different technique, but yeah, that's all about getting to know the person and them trying things out.

Fantastic. And you touched on derailing there, is that. So. For example, my biggest fear of going into an. Well, not my Biggest fear. But one of my fears would be that I have a mechanical on the bike, you know, a puncture that's going to kind of slow me down, ruin the race, but also I'm going to be flustered and trying to change a puncture at that point. So what sort of strategy should I be doing to try and eliminate that or allow me to deal with that situation as best as possible?

Well, I think, you know, I think one of the things there is that you can plan for that moment because that a very real issue that might arise in such a long race like an ironman, so that you prepare for that moment and remember that you have a choice in how you respond. And that's a really key thing about psychology is you have a choice in how you respond. So planning for that in advance means that if that then happens, you've got an action that you can go to because you've planned for it and you've prepared for it. Now it may be that you allow yourself to, you know, swear for 10 seconds and kind of be cross and angry and, you know, get out that emotion if you want to. But then actually the best course of action for you is to get yourself as sorted as you can, if you're able to, with the tools that you've got to get yourself back up and running and back in the race again. So again, planning for that moment means that you can spur into action far quicker rather than it take you by surprise and then emotions probably then going to be sky high because you weren't expecting it. And it may be that you, you know, you waste, you know, precious time in that moment.

Brilliant. And yeah, so it's kind of preparing yourself. It what actually I've heard in business described as a pre mortem. So it's the working out what you do in disaster scenarios before they ever happen.

Yeah, I mean I do that quite a lot. That kind of the what if scenario, you know, what if this happens, what if that happens? Obviously you can't come up with every scenario, but again it's really good practice for psychological preparation. Let's talk about the uncomfortable bits. Let's talk about the bits that we don't want to happen but could be very real problems. And the more you go in feeling prepared for those, the more likely you are to take a course of action. That's helpful.

Fantastic. And how significant an impact do you think goal setting can have on people's psychology for their training for the event?

I mean, you know, goal setting is, it can be so important, can make Such a difference to people because it, you know, we're all motivated differently and you know that that comes from all these different kind of places, I guess. But understanding where your motivation comes can help you with setting effective goals and just, you know, mobilizing you into action, giving you that sense that you are making progress, even if the steps are small, that collectively those small steps build into a bigger picture for you and that can spur you on and help you feel, you know, more competent in what you're doing. So I think they're extremely valuable. It's a great thing to spend, you know, a good amount of time thinking through carefully and really ensuring that the goals that you choose are, you know, all those smart things that people say. But if you do it really well, they can make a huge difference.

And is there any advice you can give people on how to set goals? Well, as. Other than just smart goals we probably all have heard about. For those that haven't, it's specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and timely. But other. Is there any advice that you can give? I know, I remember listening to you talk a bit about goals in iron mind. Any advice you can give on how people can set goals that mean that they're more likely to deliver on them?

Yeah. So generally speaking, when I set goals with people, we'll look at kind of three different levels of goals so that the outcome goal kind of sits. I kind of do it in like a pyramid shape, you know, the outcome goal is exactly what that is. It's an outcome. So this is the thing that's outside of your control, going back to your talking about what is in control, what's out of control. So that's the exciting thing. That's the thing that is the dream. That's the thing that, you know, gets you out of bed in the morning and makes you go and do the training that you're doing. That the ultimate in whatever that outcome is.

But it's not an example of that might be winning the race, for example.

Yes. Or going below a certain time or beating certain person or, you know, qualifying for, you know, a particular championships or something like that. Yes. So it's very much. You don't know if it's going to happen. You hope it is, but you don't know. But it's exciting and it's motivating you and it will, you know, spur you into action. Then the level sort of that sits below on the pyramid underneath the outcome goals are what I call performance goals. So performance goals are tangible things that give you Messages that you are on track to try and achieve your outcome goal. So it may be that a performance goal might be that, you know, you have to compete at so many different events in order to try and accrue points in order to try and qualify for whatever it is that you want to, to do. It may be that you set yourself a target that's maybe a time target of okay, well if I'm going to achieve that goal, then I need to be at this level by this date. So again, they might have a kind of numerical value to them that they're a target that's very challenging. But it gives you that if I can achieve that performance goal, then I'm on track for my outcome goal. And then what sits below performance goals are your process goals, which kind of like the foundation of goals. So those are the things that you work on day to day. Those are the things that are the small things that all accumulatively help you to achieve your performance goals. So you know, a bit of psychology, a bit of nutrition, you know, the day to day training, the coach, feedback, you know, all those little things that, and again, those can be goals that are day to day. You know, I will go, you know, swimming five times a week. I will go out on the bike every Saturday, I will do, you know, and they're the ones that give you the most likely chance of achieving the other goals. So I look at them in terms of those three things.

So those last ones are like the to do list, aren't they? They're the habits, they're the things that you do to get your. And then the performance goals are like your measure of are you making the right progress? And then the outcome goal is well, you know, I could, I could run the best run of my life and then my target of being, let's say my, a sub three marathon. But if, you know, I pull my calf muscle, well, you know, I can't, you know, you can't, can't control that outcome. So I think that seems like a really sensible way of setting goals actually and one that I think again could be applied whether it be around sport or in business. We're very focused on setting goals within our business. But this approach seems to be a level up in terms of making the goals more achievable but also easier for everybody to quantify, know what they can do to achieve, achieve that outcome.

Absolutely. And I think that, and that's why it's, you know, spending a bit of time on that is really important to try and get it as right as you can. And then you can monitor, obviously reflect, give yourself a time period where you're going to reflect on those goals. Okay, well, I'll look back at this in three months and I'll think, you know, am I still on track? Do I need to readjust? Do I need to slightly change what I'm doing? Because I know circumstances have changed and it's flexible, you know, it's a flexible thing that can be altered, but it's something that, you know, helps you to do, try and achieve what you're trying to achieve by all those different steps.

Brilliant. And so you've got your goals, you've done, you've kind of, you've mapped out some of the things that might derail you. You've identified your limiting beliefs and now you're a week before the event, we're going to take you back there. What should you be doing that last week and then even maybe the last morning before the event? And then we'll come on to during the event, maybe in a minute. But what should you be doing just before the event? Having kind of put the groundwork in?

Yes, well, as I say, that groundwork probably quite often might include a plan for that last week or for those few days leading up to the event. Again, before an event, the likelihood is that physical things will be going on, maybe some light training, you know, all the, all the physical things that you would normally do. And for me it's about including some psychology as part of that plan. So incorporating some of the work that's happened beforehand in with your physical training program in those days leading up to it. And, and again, some of those things would be reminding yourself of the preparation that you've put in, going over what you're going to do in your what if scenarios, looking maybe at your sources of confidence that you've identified that are going to help you. If you're feeling, you know, particularly nervous, going through a breathing exercise maybe that you've done, if you know that you want to do that just before the race to help relax you. It's, it's just, you know, it's, it's like preparing for an exam. You know, you just before you go through all the revision, the last minute bits that you, that you want to remind yourself of so that come race day, you're standing on the line feeling as prepared as you can. From a psychological point of view, in my eyes, because that's my job with people is that, you know, if they finish a race and you know, if they haven't got the outcome that they've wanted, that it's not a psychological reason for them not achieving their outcome. It may be, you know, they've had an injury or, you know, they punctured or. But psychologically, that when they look back, they're able to say, I did all the things that I said I would do and I planned for and prepared for.

Fantastic. And then during the event, are there any techniques that people can be using to, you know, particularly if they have some dark moments, what would you be recommending there?

Again, that would be something that we would have had conversations about those, you know, the dark moments, the hard bits in the race, which inevitably they are, you know, and again, it depends on the person. I've had all sorts of things. I remember working with a channel swimmer once and obviously a bit like an ironman, you know, very, very long event. You know, what kind of things can you do to help yourself in those dark moments? And I think he planned an anniversary party. He went through the guest list. He. He decided, you know, what food he was going to serve and what drinks he would serve. But again, that was planned beforehand. So when those moments came, it was like, okay, I'm now going to plan the party and this is what I'm going to do. And it means that when you're under pressure in that moment, you've got somewhere to take your mind and somewhere to help you. So it can be a simple strategy of planning something else, taking yourself away to. To some other place. It may be that you want to spur yourself on in that moment and that you. I mean, I've had people who like to, you know, shout out and give themselves instructions, you know, about their technique particularly, you know, and that's a way of kind of spurring them on and motivating them. Some people don't like the thought of doing that at all, you know, so again, it's. It's finding out what works for you and what. And what works best.

Brilliant. And I think I'm. I think I'm recalling from a podcast interview I heard of yours a while ago. I think you talk a bit about language, don't you? And how you know that the actual words that people use. Do you want to explain a little bit about that?

Yeah, it's an area that I find really, really fascinating. And I think another reason I find it particularly fascinating is that this was one thing that was an absolute eye opener to me when I started my training, when I started listening to myself and realized that the language and the words that I Used really were not helping me or benefiting my performance at all. And so I guess it particularly resonated with me and I think it's made a very big difference to me. But it's something that, you know, when I start having conversations with people is listening to their choice of words because you know, words are so powerful and just by altering words it can have such a profound impact on the feeling that it gives you. Just as an example, a lot of people and a lot of athletes like to kind of shift because they're talking about something that's so personally meaningful to them because it's their passion, it's their sport, you know, that they use words that kind of inflame emotions. So, you know, I must win this race today, for example. And what they're really meaning is they really want to win the race, but they use language that shifts their desires into a demand. And that demand is what gives people this sense of pressure. Emotions can then rise and uncomfortable feelings can be a result of that. So I think language is really interesting. And that's part of again going back to that self awareness piece at the beginning is noticing what people say, how they say it, learn how you say things to yourself. I know I'm still very, very susceptible to having that kind of language, particularly when I'm tired, particularly after 9:30 at night. My husband says to me, we won't talk about that now because I, I naturally, you know, I do go into that kind of thinking. I know I do. It's something that is a habit of mine. And I think also just, you know, interestingly, I think a lot of people think you're trying to get rid of things when you're working on your cycle. Trying to get rid of negative emotion, trying to get rid of negative thoughts. And actually what you're trying to do is adapt to those. We're still going to experience negative emotions, we're still going to experience negative thoughts, we're still going to experience thinking that maybe is not helpful to us in the moment. The skill of psychology is I'm identifying that I recognize that I do it. And how can I make some shifts in my thinking to take myself down a more helpful route that's actually going to help me more in this moment. And that's the kind of. I think what I'm trying to aim to help people and support people with is that that voice might still be there, but how you manage it and how you deal with it is something that you can take charge of and be in control over and be Empowered by.

I think it's a really interesting subject, this, because I think the example I heard you use before was that somebody might fail to finish their race and describe it as devastating because clearly they'd put huge amounts of work into getting to that race. But then you might ask them, well, okay, but if you saw on the news that there'd been a train crash and people have been killed, what word would you use them? Well, I might also use devastating.

And.

Well, how can you put up failing to finish an ironman in the same. You know, how can you use the same terminology? And so just trying to think about the language that you were using is the right word. Catastrophizing, making. Making situations out to be worse than they are. Is there any ways, Is there any advice that you can give people to try and a, become more aware of the language that they're using, but B, to help them use language to improve their thought process?

Yeah, I mean, and I think that comes with investment of time in the process. You know, it's noticing that you have a tendency to maybe use those kind of words. Bringing a sense of perspective to what you do, I think is a really important one as well, that when people invest so much time and energy into something that, you know, it's so easy to use to slip into that kind of language. And we hear it in the media all the time, you know, do or die performance. They say, you know, it's. It's a win at all costs. At all costs. You know, do we really mean these things? And it's really. It's just bringing a bit more kind of realism to your language and stating it how it is, rather than kind of giving this kind of inflamed language that can get people really, really worked up. So I think for a lot of people in my experience, you know, having ongoing conversations about it is one of the most powerful things because they, you know, they talk about it with me in a session and then they go out and, you know, in normal time, see people in the real world, see people in the workplace, and they hear the kind of language all the time that we've been talking about. And I think it's a very, very easy thing for athletes to do is to just slip into that language because they think if I. If I use language that's really emotive, it gives people a sense that it matters to me, you know, such a lot, whereas they. They're actually putting more pressure on themselves by using that. Those kind of words.

And it's a vicious circle Isn't it? I was trying to change a stubborn tire yesterday and ended up wrecking two inner tubes in the process. And of course, the more, the more effort you're putting in, the more adrenaline that's flowing, the more you're likely to use the negative language. And then the negative language is only going to inflame it more, isn't it?

That's right. Which is why I guess what I say about the preparation, those what if scenarios, you know, knowing the things that push your buttons, knowing the things that are going to be difficult, is the more you can plan for the, that moment. Yes, it might not work and yes, but it might help you, it might help you get back quicker to helpful thinking that ultimately will help you in the race or in training.

And I think that, yeah, I think that's it, isn't it? This is all about giving yourself mental strategies in advance of the day so that you're much more equipped to deal with whatever's thrown at you on the day, isn't it?

Yes. And I think, well, particularly in long distance endurance events, you know, to expect it all to go smoothly is possibly unrealistic. You know, there will be difficult moments, there will be bits that are hard, and of course it's very difficult to completely prepare for those. But the more you engage in, you know, what those things might be, the more you can help yourself in the moment. And I think also the sense of accomplishment that people have afterwards, if they have experienced some kind of adversity in how they managed it and how they dealt with it, is a really good platform for the next event and the one after that.

And with regards to sports psychology, do you find that some people are more receptive to it than others? For example, are female or male athletes any more engaged with it? Or is it, you know, does everybody get the same benefit from it, you know?

Well, firstly, I guess in my experience, I did a bit of kind of data analysis when I first started working in IT to see if there was, was any kind of difference just in the people that came to me and it was really 50, 50 in terms of male female athletes, you know, equally they were interested. And obviously when people come to see me, they're curious about it, which is why they're contacting me in the first place. But I generally find that, you know, people are coming because they're wanting to better themselves. I mean, I have some people that come to me and sort of say, I think I'm doing okay. You know, I think I'm, I'm doing well. But I want to be the best that I can be. I just like to talk through some things. Maybe there's something that I'm missing that would be helpful to me. So I think it's important to say you don't have to come and go and see a sports psychologist because you have an issue as such. It can just be. You want to think about the psychological challenges, the things in the psychology of the sport that you are in and discuss them just like you would do a coach with the physical things.

And what does coming to a sports psychologist look like? I mean, is it a weekly thing, a monthly thing, Is it virtual? Is it, you know, what are the logistics of getting help from somebody like yourself?

Yeah, well, the first thing I would always say to somebody is just ensure that the sports psychologist you're going to see is a trained sports psychologist and has the credentials of a fully trained sports psychologist. Because there are, you know, some people who claim to be, who aren't that they've got that background and that knowledge of theory and evidence based practice. For me, I typically when I work with people, we have an, in what I call an introductory conversation, which is where it's a chance for them to meet me and me to meet them. Because it's a very, very important part for me is that they feel that they can talk to me about whatever it is that they want to talk about and that they feel that they can have an ongoing relationship with me and it may be that they meet me for the first time and they, and that's, you know, they don't want to pursue that and that's fine because I think it's important that you find somebody who you click with, you know, who you have a connection with. I typically find that people tend to book in for a series of sessions and I do advise that because there's consistency then and you know, you're accountable to somebody. I give people activities to work on during the week. So we typically, most people will probably have about six, six sessions, six to eight sessions with me over, you know, on a weekly or a fortnightly basis. After that I have, I have, it really varies. I have people that come and see me periodically, just as kind of check ins where we, we just see how things are going, look back at some of the work that we've done, reflect and review on it. I have some people that I don't see for a while and then they come back again. I have some people that just do the six sessions and then, and then they, I don't See them again. It's. It's a real mixture and it's very personal and up to the individual what they, you know, what they choose to do.

Fantastic. And for those people that want to learn more about this, are there any particular books that you find yourself recommending or that were really helpful to you in your. In your journey?

Yeah. So one of the books that talks a lot about belief systems, actually, that I really like is called Tipping the Balance, the mental skills handbook for athletes. And it's written by Dr. Martin Turner and Dr. Jamie Barker, who at the time were working at Staffordshire University, which is where I did my Masters. They both moved on now and are working in different places, but they're very passionate sports psychologists. They do have done a lot of applied work and I'd highly recommend the book. It's very easy, it's got activities within there that you can easily apply to yourself and it's very readable, so I would certainly recommend that. Another book that I'd recommend is called Performing Under Pressure Psychological Strategies For Sporting Success by Josephine Perry. It's quite a new book published by Routledge, I think it is. And in there she basically goes through mental skill strategies and this is the strategy, here's how you can apply it. So, again, it's easy reading, it's. It's very usable, very user friendly and I would certainly recommend that if you're looking to kind of dip your toe in the water with mental skills and try and find a few things that you think might help you.

Brilliant. Thank you for that. They both sound fascinating and I suppose, just wrapping up, what are you looking forward? What are you most excited about in the future?

Well, again, I think I said to you before, you know, I'm not one of these people that say, oh, this is where I'm going to be long term. I'm just going to carry on doing the things that I enjoy doing. And so, yes, my goal is to continue carrying on doing what I'm enjoying doing. And I'm kind of working on a project at the moment which I'm feeling really quite excited about. It's in very, very early stages, but I've decided to have a think about my teaching career of 25 years and my work now as a sport psychology, and try and bring sports psychology education and principles into primary school pe. It's something I'm really passionate about and I like the creativity of bringing an area that children don't know that much about and trying to present it to them in a creative way. Using my skills, obviously, having Been a teacher. So I'm at the moment kind of getting some headteachers together and some teachers and coming up with some programs, prototypes of kind of creative media that we could use to try and give children some psychological goals when they go out for a PE lesson and not just physical ones.

I think that sounds fascinating because we've already worked out that a lot of these principles are really valuable for us in everyday life, not just in sporting life. So if you can sneak. Sneak. I don't know whether sneak's the right word really, but sneak these in to the children's curriculum through under the COVID of sport, they'll probably be more interested and more open to it, I don't know. But then equipping them with some fantastic tools for every aspect of life.

Yeah, absolutely. That's what I think. There's a lot of evidence out there that says that young people are very capable of picking up psychological skills and strategies and can practice them. I do work a lot with young people. It's one of the things that, that I'm so thrilled that now I'm not working in schools. I still work with a lot of adolescents and young people and some children who are under 10 and they never cease to amaze me. They're like sponges with this. And again, I guess I like the fact that I present that material to them in a different way to how I would present it, possibly to a 45 year old triathlete, to a 10 year old. But that's the fun of the job and that's the teacher in me, I guess, is how you present how you present the material. But they're absolutely amazing with how will they take it on board, how they apply it, how they use it. So yeah, I'm excited to see what it could bring for PE in schools.

Well, I mean if you get. I remember listening to a podcast interview, Sir Chris Hoy and he was talking about how he was prompted to set goals when a goal when he was very young and he put down to be an Olympian and it was this completely crazy guy. He wasn't even the fastest cyclist in his cycling club and yet that has had a huge impact. And actually I was just recently watching Richie McCaw, the documentary on him, the all black captain. And again, writing down goals was a significant part of what got him to where he got to. So I think if you can be instilling that principle in young children, then that'll be tremendous.

Well, I hope so. I say I'm busy working on it at the moment and yeah, Enjoying it. So that's the main thing.

Fantastic, Helen. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. Thank you so much for your time. I think this whole concept of sports psychology and the techniques that you're using to help people is really fascinating. I also really enjoy going through the Iron Mind program and I'm sure others will too. So thank you so much and I look forward to seeing what happens next.

Well, thanks very much for having me, Charlie. I really enjoyed it. And if people want to take a look at my website, think. Believe me. Perform.co.uk there's, there's lots of articles that I've written on sports psychology there and obviously access to Iron Mind is there as well.

Brilliant. Thank you very much. Sure you'll agree that was a really interesting conversation with Helen. I particularly love trying to understand about your limiting beliefs around your exercise and how we can try and identify those limiting beliefs and then try and eliminate them. Try and find empowering beliefs. I love the piece about knowing your why and also about the goal setting as well and the importance of using goals. So much great stuff. And I also think what brilliant career move that switch in her 40s from teaching to sports psychology has been. You can genuinely tell she's now following her passion, which is fantastic. And I, you know, I, I hope that she gives more people the confidence to be able to really follow their passion as opposed to staying in the job that they've been in for the last five, 10, 20, 40 years. So I think there was some brilliant advice within that and I hope you found some nuggets there that you could learn from. I'd really encourage you to check out Ironmind. The best place to go to is think believeperform.co.uk and if you go to Ironmind, it is a program that's well worth working your way through. As I say, the exercises within it are really powerful and help you really think along the right approach and take your time with it. It's not something you need to do over a two day period, it's something, a series of exercises that you gradually you get closer and closer to your race and you can, you can find Helen on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and all of the details of that. Plus the Think Believe Perform website is in the show notes. So I hope you found that really interesting and as interesting as I found it chatting to Helen and I wish you good training. Get out there, enjoy the outdoors while we can. I appreciate this is now not the easiest time to be doing that, but thank goodness for being in the world of triathlon because I can still run, I can still cycle to a certain extent. Whilst I can't swim at the moment, that's still a lot to be thankful for. So until next time, keep on training. And remember, this podcast is brought to you by Brits Superfoods. You can find out more@britsuperfoods.co.uk but if you use the link in the show notes or you use the referral code of the Tribeathlon, you'll get 10% off your orders. You'll get a free bag of juices worth £15 with every order. And those will happen forever. As long as you buy from BritSuperfood having started with that referral code, you'll get those forever. In addition to that, you'll also benefit from that 110% money back guarantee. So if you don't see the value in it, then they'll give you your money back and an extra 10% back. So go check out the link in the show notes or go to BritSuperfoods.co.uk and use the referral code Tribeathlon and you'll get that 10% off, free shipping and free juice on every order. And don't forget to download the Tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete and to build your tribe SA.