Double Olympian Mindset with Chris Cook

Foreign.

I'm charlie redding. And I'm laura sidall and this is the tribathlon podcast.

I said, you know, in any given moment, you've got a choice to be bitter or better. Especially when you go through a really tough patch. You can either come out the other end and you can either ask yourself questions that facilitate you becoming better. And they're hard. They're really hard. It's not easy, but it is simple. Or you can follow the bitterness route and blame and throw that kind of toys out the pram.

That was Chris Cook and this episode is Double Olympian Mindset. Hey, Sid, how are you doing?

I'm very good, Charlie. How are you? How is the week in the Lakes? Did you get your time to think and put the world to rights?

I did, actually. It was totally brilliant, with all but one exception, which I'll come on to. So, yeah, I spent most of the week in Coniston Water. Or sorry by Coniston water. Swimming in Coniston water. I went up, as one of my morning runs, I went up old Mount Coniston, which is one of the biggest beats in the Lakes. Not as big, biggest helvellum, but one of the biggest ones. And then ran along the top and down. Two days later, my quads were absolutely screaming at me. But it was amazing morning run. And, yeah, as we already talked about cycling the Fred Whitten, so that was brilliant. And then shifted over to Boundless Windermere, or Boundless on Windermere, which I. Because I've been to the Lakes for, like, since I was 15. And Windermere is crazy. It's special, but it was a crazy place. It was, like, totally packed.

Yeah.

So that bit, trying to do that bit on Sunday with a bit of a mistake. So I don't think I will be repeating that. And I definitely.

Well, it's probably like, you know, the UK has been in lockdown. There's light at the end of the tunnel. Although that might just have been shut. The door might just have been shut for a bit longer. But you've had, like, some good weather in the uk and I think everyone was just like, we're getting out of here before they lock us down again.

And I likened it to being like Padstow. You know, the first really nice bit of Cornwall that people tend to get to is rock and Padstow, which is why it attracts so many people. Windermere, I suppose, is essentially the game played to the Lake District, isn't it? I won't be staying in the Lakes Spa Hotel again. That was definitely the least value.

I'd. Let's out them now. Out them now. Name the hotel again. Let's make the Melody Hotel.

You spa in Boundless on Windermere. It was. Honestly, I've stayed in bigger shoeboxes. I put on my review that if you wanted to be able to wash your hands in the sink, wash your feet in the shower while sitting on the toilet, and perfect room for you. But it was a total joke for what we were paying for it.

But other.

And the manager s was totally useless. But other than that, it was a brilliant, brilliant weekend. In fact, we climbed Helvellyn. Oh, my God. How do they do a triathlon up Helvellyn? I mean, there's basically two ways to get up Helvellon. There's, I think, called striding edge, which we went up Striding Edge. And that genuinely is rock climbing. Yeah, really narrow edge. And, yeah, people have died on there in not so recent past.

And then you come.

We came down. I think it's called a swivel edge, which is the one that the triathlon goes up and down. But that is still.

Yeah. Kind of grappling.

Yeah, it's small. Tiny.

Yeah.

And to throw that into it's totally crazy. So I could understand why Joe Skipper said his quads were screaming at him after he did Hell Valen, because. Yeah, yeah. But what an amazing place. And the views from there are incredible.

Yeah, it's. I mean, I think that's like the. It's going along those lines of the extreme, extreme triathlons, the Norsemans, the, you know, Patagon man. I don't think quite has that brutal elevation on the run, but I know, like the. The Ex trying Canada, I think, has got a pretty solid climb to the finish where you like, literally hands and knees. And I was watching. There was the first in the Golden. Golden Trail series, I think it is, which was in Spain this weekend, and they actually had it on tv, which was awesome. And I didn't see the. I didn't see the ascent climb, but I've heard it was. It was 21ks this race, and it took the winner, like over two and a half. The female winner over two and a half hours, which kind of gives you some idea of how. And it was just literally, I think, sort of straight up and straight down. But she. I mean, it's just a different sport, that kind of trail running in the mountain. She was flying down this steep descent like she wasn't even, like touching the ground. And it was just like Just a different skill. It's impressive. But, yeah, I think it's the downhill that just, like, burns the quads. If you're not. If you're not. I mean, I'm sure it does for the professional trail runners, but the way they run downhill is quite different to the way I think we run downhill when we're not technically trained in that sort of thing.

Yeah, well, you hear that. You read the stories of these fell runners that literally are just screaming down hillside, alarming pace. But no, I wasn't willing to quite embrace that approach. But one of the things that it did make me think about, it was really hot at the weekend in the.

Uk and I saw, yeah, even old Boris took a dip in the sea at Karbis Bay, which was a sight I didn't need to see on the media.

I haven't seen that picture, but I won't. But so swimming in the lakes and the like. And actually, you know, up Helvellyn, obviously, once. It's much chillier up there was. It was perfect. But then I saw a post of yours and it looked blooming hot where you were. So what is it where you are at the moment and how do you. How do you cope with training in the heat? Because you're having to put up with a lot more heat than we are.

Yeah, it's about. So this last few days, it's sort of been 34, 35 degrees. Um, so. And it's interesting this year, like, normally I'd come to Spain having been in, like, Australia and New Zealand, so having been in summer over there. So I always come here and never really notice the difference in. In heat as much. But I definitely noticed we've had a. We've had a fairly mixed. Like most of you are a fairly mixed start to summer, and so the temperature just suddenly, like, jumped up within, like, the space of a couple of days. And I definitely noticed the difference from previous years. But, you know, you just. Well, you just get on with it. Like. Like I've got a race in the heat, so I've got to get it. Like, you could time it, you could get up early and train, you could train later, but it's not going to help me adapt in any way, so I might as well just get out and get out there. You just make sure you're hydrated, you've got enough water, like nowhere to stop, which is always a bit tricky in Spain, where the things are going to be open or whether you can find a. Find a font. And a lot of the fonts are shut have been blocked off because of COVID So that's always a bit of a lottery as to whether you finally find a drinking fountain that you can fill your bottle up and then they've. They've blocked it or they've stopped. They've stopped it. But yeah, and just, I guess, you know, being sensible with. Yeah. Making sure you're hydrated and not, you know, not staying out all the time in the sun, but going out and doing your training and then just coming back and making. Getting the sleep the thing I find hardest when it's hot, it's not necessarily the training, it's the recovery. So the last few summers when I've lived here, I've been in places that don't have aircon. And that's just brutal. Like, you're just not sleeping at night, like, even with the windows open, like you just be with a sheet and stuff, but you're just not sleeping. So you're not getting the recovery. So I often find in the heat, obviously, keeping yourself hydrated and making sure you're getting electrolytes in, but also just making sure you are sleeping and recovering well. So if that is getting it a bit cooler at night, I think that's always, always a bonus.

And yeah, and you talk about obviously the electrolytes and we've obviously spoken quite a lot about precision hydration and using that bit and using their stuff to kind of make sure you replace those electrolytes. But do you find that you eat more, eat less, or do you not find that any. The heat impacts your carb consumption?

Like, probably when I'm riding, it's probably like I did a real long ride on Saturday and it was just. It was more the hydration that I needed. Like, I could not get enough water. And for me, it's just not water or electrolytes. It's like fizzy. Fizzy water is what I. Is that. That's actually what I. What's the word? Crave. I just want fizzy bubbles of some form because I find if you have anything like. So I've been using the pH, which has been great, but quite a low dosage because I sometimes find that you don't want. I just need. It needs to be real refreshing and like, you can't keep the water cold enough. So you're often drinking kind of warmer warm water, which is still better than nothing. And so then whenever I stop, it's just trying to get like a bottle of Agricon gas or Vichy Catalan, which is their fizzy water. And just like I put that in my drinks bottles and probably down another bottle as well.

Doesn't that. I mean, I would think that that would cause you to get really gassy. I would think that necking fizzy fizzy drinks isn't.

No, I love it. I crave it. Like, it's the first thing, like when I come back after a run. Like normally the end of the run, all I can think about is getting back and putting the soda stream on and getting a cold, like just downing a. Whatever it is, a liter of soda water and the same, like. Yeah. When I'm riding, that seems to be the, the best way I can quench my thirst.

And do you think that's a taste thing or is it a. Is there some, you know.

Element of.

The fizzy water that's delivering you something that you don't get from.

No idea. No idea. It's purely. That's what I crave and that's what I, what I like. I mean, there's lots of benefits around soda water, but I'm not always drinking soda water. It's like agriculture, gas. So it's, you know, sparkling water. It's quite cool here, Liz. And actually, although I don't tend to stop at it or haven't done for a while, but there's a natural spring that actually delivers fizzy water which is pretty cool. So you can go and like take your bottles and, and fill up just from a natural spring. And it's sparkling. Yeah. I don't know the science around it. That's just what I, what I'm addicted to and crave.

That is interesting because I wouldn't, other than I have to admit on Fred Whitten, I did at about 100ish miles in. I did have to go and get a can of Coke because that's the only fizzy drink I would crave on a, on a long ride is some Coke. And that's more for sugar and caffeine as opposed to.

Yeah. Oh, don't like, don't get me wrong, I will like a cold Coke, but that tends to be more like if I'm feeling low energy as well. And that's what I drink. In a race. I'll go, I'll grab the Coke from aid stations, particularly on the run. We've got a drink here in Spain called aqueous, I think it is, which is kind of like a. I don't actually think it's not fizzy, but it's. It's water with a little bit of electrolyte. In it, but it's just got a really subtle flavor and I'll just doubt. I like. I have an emergency bottle in my fridge if I've come back from a run or a ride and I need some electrolyte kind of thing. Obviously I've got the ph as well, but that just seems to be the best. The thirst quencher. But yeah, Coke's always your emergency red.

Doctor and you mentioned ph. They've now, it's now out in the public domain. I think that Andy dropped it a little bit on our, on our podcast. But the gels are out there and, and they're out in the public domain. So how. I. I've often struggled with gels but I've got on so far. I mean I haven't tested them in race conditions, but I've got on well with the gels. I actually hopefully be testing them on Sunday. But how have you got on with them?

Yeah, it's funny because I've used the same brand of nutrition for like years since I was an age grouper and have kind of like. I don't, I wouldn't say I have issues with gels. Touch wood. I've never, never, never suffered anything like that in races or not. But I've also like, I've used other gels in training but for races. I've always ever used the same, the same brand for years and years and years. But yeah, I got, I got some of the ph gels which was cool and I've tried them and again, yeah, no, no ad like definitely nothing negative about them. So I find that they're quite a subtle flavor or non flavor. They've got a little bit of a flavor to them. I can't, I'm not sure what you'd describe it as.

No, I couldn't work out what the.

Flavor would be which is fine because often like you don't. I'm not interested necessarily in a flavor and sometimes actually I find with the, the brand I've used before, some of those flavors can get a little bit sickly or bored. Not bored or you just like fed up with them after you've taken a 30th one during a full distance race kind of thing. Um, but no, super easy to take. Like pretty, pretty fluid. So yeah, I've been, I've been, I've. I used. He's a couple I think when I was riding the other day and one when I was running and had no issues like taking it when I was running as well.

And so does that mean that you would normally for a race take your own fuel. So how do you deal with that in a, in a long, you know, in a full distance race, would you just carry everything from the start or would you have. Yeah, you wouldn't use the drop bag or anything like that?

I have, I have spares. I have spares and special needs, um, just in case I lose any of my nutrition. Nutrition for, for whatever reason. But sometimes special needs, like some of them you can grab and go but a lot of the time you have to pull in and stop. And so for us when we're racing that's just not, not practical unless it's really desperate times. And if you're not going to, if you don't take that special needs, you're going to be, you're not going to be finishing. So. Yeah, I just, I have, I use little flasks which fit four gels in and I have two of those flasks in my bento box on the bike and then I have two in my swim to bike transition that I grab and put in my back pockets as I, as I start the ride. And then just. They're the, they're the ones I use first and then transfer to the ones in the bento box and often have a couple of spares stashed in different places. Yeah.

And with the ones that you put in the box in the little flower bottles, do you add water to that as well? So that's just straightforward. Four gels in each and so you'll have.

Yeah, we don't need to add water because you've got your water on your bike, your hydration. So you can just, if you need to, if you need to take some water to help help them, you just then sit from your sip from your.

Hydration and having just done the ph carb calculator which they've just released, it's telling me that I should be having at the weekend 60 to 90 carbs. An hour. So roughly that's two to three gels an hour. Is that what you would stick to?

Yeah, and I'm going to be a real, like, I don't pay attention to any of that. You should be eating this many carbs an hour. I think age groupers get like, yeah, it's good but there's too much like, I don't do. That's not my.

I.

Someone else told someone else set my nutrition plan and that's what I've been following for years. And I just, I don't think too much about it. I don't it's not. Yeah, you might think I need to or I should be doing as a pro, but it's touch wood. It's worked so far. So I take. Yeah, I take on the bike, I take a gel every 20 minutes.

Right, okay.

Yeah. And then similarly on the run. Although on the run it tends to be. But I couldn't tell you. Well, I could. I can go and look at the back of the gels. I think they're 45 grams. Little things that I mute I've used before. But I couldn't tell you what the carb content is. I couldn't tell you how many carbs I have per hour. I just know that I take one every 20 minutes. And then on the run, again, still one every 20 minutes, but it tends to be more that I'll take a sip more regularly. So maybe 10 minutes, you take a smaller gulp or whatever. And then on the run, you're mixing with Coke and stuff.

So with. So on the run, then. Do you have a flask on the run as well with multiple bells in. So that you're having?

Yeah.

So how big? I'm trying to envisage what that flask looks like.

Well, this is really good for a podcast where the viewers can't see this, but that's. I'm. To the viewers listening. I'm now showing Charlie what the flask looks like.

So basically like the smallest size.

Bottle.

Of water you would get, isn't it?

It's even smaller. It's 100 milliliters of water.

Yeah.

In this. That's the size of it. But it fits four gels in.

Okay, interesting. I'm not seeing it. That looks quite useful. I might have to get my hands on one of them. Yeah, fantastic.

Okay, this is only. And. Well, I've not found these anywhere apart from the nutritional company that I've been using. So if you look online in a normal hydration nutrition, I've not found them as small as this. So these are the. Sorry. They're the only ones that I can fit two of them in my bento box. So any of the ones that you buy online are bigger and then they don't fit. And then I can't fit them in pockets.

So. So 100. 100 milliliter is okay. So that's. Because that's. That also saves you the hassle of trying to rip the top off the thing.

And.

And. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Brilliant.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know whether I'll get my hands on one of those between now and the Outlaw on Sunday, but we will see.

Yeah, I mean, for a half. Half's a little bit different. So on the half, for half distance, I'll still do a gel every 20 minutes on the bike, but on the run, I'll do it. I'll just have three gels that I do at like 6:12 and 17k, depending how I feel. And I just carry those as a, as a gel. No, I don't put them in a flask.

Right, okay, okay. And yeah, because, I mean, I would normally eat solids on the bike and then switch to gels on the run, but you've never bothered with eating.

No, I just use gels and that's why I'm saying I'm pretty unique on that fact. So, like, don't necessarily need people follow that because I know people struggle with not having solids. I know most people recommend you have some form of solids on the bike because it's easy to digest, but I just find it easier to do the gels.

Yeah, yeah. No. Okay, fantastic. Right, well, without further ado, let's dive into the interview with Chris Cook.

After competing for Great Britain in the pool for nearly 10 years, a career that saw him rise to being double Commonwealth champion, British record holder, Commonwealth record holder, world medalist, European medalist, double Olympian, including Olympic finalist, Chris Cook hung up his trunks and retired from international swimming. And he now works with businesses, performance teams, schools and organizations to assist them in the pursuit of their goals, inspiring a world class mindset and encouraging people to follow their passion. Chris has built up an impressive reputation as a motivational speaker and he's also the director and owner of the business Swim Buddies Swimming Academy. So in this interview with Chris, I wanted to really learn about what it takes to have a double Olympian mindset and also how he's transitioned from the pool to business and also the pool to stage. I know you're going to love this chat with Chris Cook. So, Chris, welcome to to the Tribe Athlon podcast. Sid, welcome back as well. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So, Chris, to kick things off, why don't you tell for people that don't know that much about your sporting career, tell us a bit about where you came from and the successes that you had throughout your throughout that career.

Oh, thanks for the invite onto the show. I've been really excited to do this one. Yeah, so my background, I'm just a normal guy. I'm from South Shields. Grew up wanting to be an Olympic swimmer. After watching Adrian Morehouse win a gold medal in 1988, I think I was about nine at the time, watching him, just thinking, that's what I want to do. I want to be him, you know. And a couple of months later, I was involved in a swimming club and before I knew it, I was whisked along on that journey, just meeting some incredible people. I go around the world now sharing my story, what I call two lengths of the pool. And it's essentially a story of a local lad who set a challenge and a target and just kept going and having that curiosity to just scrape under the surface, scratch underneath the surface. And I look back over my career now and I'm a two time Olympian and I have to pinch myself. My last ever race was an Olympic final, two lanes away from Michael Phelps, who won his eighth gold medal in Beijing and, you know, stood there, part of world swimming history, in fact, global sports history, that moment. And again, I'm only a little lad from South Shields who's not even 6 foot, so, you know, people in the northeast would say, you've done canny, son, you've done canny.

Did you know that was going to be your last race?

Yeah, instinctively, I just knew. I kind of knew on the build up, but didn't. I didn't kind of put a full stop at the end of it on the build up to Beijing. But I reached a stage where, how can I explain it? I reached a stage where I felt as though I didn't want to fall out of love with something. I was in love with it, but it had reached its end point. I'd done everything I possibly could and I was actually getting better and better, which is really ironic. One of my fastest races was my last one. But yeah, I came away from Beijing and I just didn't feel the same about the next four years. I mean, four years at the age of 30 as well. It is, it's massive and, you know, it affects your life, it affects your home life. Everybody in your life is part of your team or if they're not, you've got to leave them in your wake. And it sounds really bad and selfish, but, you know, there's an element of you. If they're not part of your team, then they're definitely part of the opposition. So you have to make decisions and ultimately, yeah, it was time to move on. And there's a skill there, there's a skill in knowing that.

Did, did you a few points there because I know it's super critical time at the moment because Olympic teams are being announced. So there's people that have been Working for, well, five years now to have that Olympic dream. And they're going to be disappointed. Some people are going to be disappointed. And some people, it's going to make, you know, they're going to realize their dreams. Did you take, you know that when you were standing on the start line or on the blocks, I should say, in swimming. Yeah, breaststroke, wasn't it? Anyway, so you are, you are on the blocks knowing that it was probably your last race, but it was the Olympic final, but then you've got Michael Phelps, like two lanes or whatever down. Did you. Were you able to appreciate what you'd achieved in the sport or was it just kind of in that moment of like, literally, you've got to get that two legs in the pool as fast as you can this time. Forget everyone else. Were you, I guess I'm saying, were you appreciative of you being part of that history?

I probably wasn't at the time, if I'm honest with you. That came later. So just to thicken the story for you, thicken the plot. Four days before that, in the individual, I bombed out of that semi final. I should have been in the final. I was in the top five in the world. Went in really strong positioned. I was getting faster and faster that year. And in the heat, in the semi final, I just didn't perform. And I was so angry and frustrated and I knew my chances of individual Olympic gold had gone. Went into the relay four nights later. And that journey from failure to what I deem as a personal success, a hidden success, because we didn't win a gold medal. We didn't win a medal. We finished sixth and we broke the British record. But I had one of the fastest relay splits I've ever done by a long shot. So for me, it was a real. It was ending on a high. The skill that I had to really dig deep on in that four days was unbelievable. I went on such an emotional turmoil journey, if you like. But, yeah, I had to really focus on what I was there to do. I was there to lay it down two lengths of the pool as fast as I could. And I had to take out all what we called the Coronation street drama, you know, all the extra crowds, all the other stuff, all that stuff, you know, like my coach used to say, the Olympics is just a few more mums and dads in the audience. That's all it is, because they don't change the pool. You know, it's still 50 meters. They don't go, hang on a sec, we'll make the blocks a little bit extra slippy. It's the game, let's just, you know, throw in a few wild cards. It's the same stuff and we have to turn up with that mentality. But you know, you don't remember those moments of turmoil as being turmoil. When you get out the other end later down the line, you remember them as lessons. Yeah, if you're really truly going to turn a lesson into a blessing, you need to be super present about, super focused about what you're there to do and what you're there to learn. And you know, I left the Olympics with a real mixed bag feeling. I felt like I'd failed. I left the games and felt like I failed. And I was asked in a school years ago, you know, what was your proudest moment in sport? And I said, mine came after the sport three years after when I was reflecting with a family member and I look back and all of a sudden I felt this sense of pride over one question. Someone said, oh, what would you say to that nine year old you who started this journey? And I'd say, well done. You've been at two games and you've done bloody well. And it was at that moment that I thought, God, I have, I've got to be appreciative of what I've done. But it didn't happen in the sport. It was fleeting. Those moments are fleeting.

It's so hard though, isn't it, as a, as a professional because you're so caught up in the doing at that time that you, and once that race is done, you're so critical on like, yeah, where did I go wrong? Or you know, why didn't we go, why did what went wrong? Or where can we improve maybe? And you've already literally sort of moved on to the next race and you've never really given yourself time to appreciate what you've done until like you said, probably a few years after the fact of retirement.

There's a balance, there's a balance to be had, isn't there? There's that moment of reflection which has got to be a thought through process of where did it go wrong? What could it be even better and what have I done? Well, and that's just analyzing your race without emotions. But then there's those moments when you do get to reflect on the year just gone and what you're going to achieve the next year. And I think it's really important to do that. But they're so fleeting, they're so small. You're on to the next Thing. And I think that's one of the big dangers from a kind of health and well being aspect of an, of an Olympian or what professional athlete is. They are so used to this get to the next, get to the next, get to the next goal. I've heard Alex Ferguson talk about, you know, they walk out the stadium with a cup and he's already writing on a notepad of what he's going to do next season. He's only in the car going home. And I heard that and I was like, yeah, I can resonate with that. Sat on flights, coming back from the World Championship champs from Canada, finishing in the top five in the world, one of the fastest races ever. And I'm going, I start with rubbish, that's going to improve. My turn with rubbish, that's going to improve. You know, I'm writing all these things that I'm going to do. Nothing's ever good enough. In a weird way, it's a very, very interesting mix of emotions and thoughts.

What did you.

Do you think that there was something different that you did between those two races? So the one, the individual race where you kind of flunked out versus the one, the relay, where you put in one of your best ever performances. Because for that to come, just four days apart is, you know, for that turnaround is really incredible.

Yeah, it was actually, and I'm really, really proud of it. And it's kind of a hidden proud moment because my individual so bad. Even the interview with Sharon Davies afterwards was painful. I've watched it once or twice. Oh my God, it's cringe and it's awful, but you can just see I'm just heartbroken. Burst me dreams. But yeah, the main thing was to start to trust the process and the work that we'd done. You know, there was a massive kind of. I was overwhelmed by the occasion and the individual and I was just focusing on the wrong things. My mind was going out of the race looking for the differences when I should have been looking for the similarities. Because if the similarities in what we do in those big moments that start to settle the subconscious mind and go, you're okay, you're not in trouble, it's okay, there's no threat. And really, in all fairness, why we train so much is because what we're trying to do is build up as many similarities as possible. So we're visiting that regularly, constantly. So when it becomes the big events, I shouldn't even call them the big events really, when it comes to the Olympics and the World champs, it's a. I've done this a million times. It's okay. There's just, like I said, there's a few more mums and dads there.

Off that point, then how do you think the athletes are going to act? Not act, that's one word. How do you think the athletes are going to be affected in Tokyo this year? Because there's not probably going to be a few more mums and dads. There's actually probably going to be a lot less. You think that's going to have a. The atmosphere is going to have an impact on the athletes?

I think it will. I think you're going to get three different types of. Well, I'm gonna be brutal here. You get three different types of athletes, you get winners, you get wannabes, and you get that band in the middle who could go either way. And I think it's gonna really affect those people in the middle and those wannabes. I think it is. You know, and that sounds really harsh to say it in that way, but I was probably in that second or third wave, you know, I didn't win at the Olympics. Your winners like Adam Peaty, there's no question of a doubt. They're not just believing they're going to win. They know everything about him is just there's an inner knowing. And I call it. When I'm working with businesses now and I'm coaching people in business, I call it journeying from hope to know. And you listen to people's language, they'll say things, I hope I do okay this weekend. I hope this presentation's all right and I nail it. Or what would make you hop over to think. I think this presentation is going to go well because that's. There's a bit more evidence there. And if you can do that with think, could you do that with believe? I believe this presentation is going to go well, or I believe this race this weekend is going to go well. And then when you move into that world class category, there's a knowing. And, you know, I heard you saying boltzit after Beijing. You said China was a long way to go pick up a medal. And as cheeky as it sounds, you know, what he was really saying is the work that I've done has led me to know, not just to believe. So I think that Top Flight, they're not going to be affected at all. Your winners are your winners. Simple. And that is brutal to say, but it's the truth. And like I say, I can say it from experience of being on the other side of the fence. I'm just being honest.

No, it's fascinating. I love that. It's. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to watch, I think. But.

I don't know if you've read. I know you're a big reader of books and I'm going to come on to plenty of books in due course, but it's just made me. What you've just said made me think about. I don't know if you've read Matthew Syed's book Bounce, but he talks about where he, you know, he was a top British table tennis player, went to the Sydney Olympics and he totally choked and he just, you know, had performed way, way, way beyond below his expectation, you know, and his ability.

Do you think.

Do you think you. Which is not a very nice word to use, but do you think you choked in that first performance or.

Yeah.

And what are your thoughts around the concept of choking?

Yeah, I think I did. I think there was an element of kind of overwhelming focus on the wrong things at the wrong time. When you focus on the right things with the right energy at the right time, the right things happen. It's simple and you don't overcomplicate it. When you go in, overcomplicating it, you're overthinking it. It becomes a conscious action. The reason we train so much and the reason we work so hard is because we're trying to make it a subconscious automatic response, if you like. I think what happened straight after that race, after the heats, I then went into the semifinals thinking about the heats. We've got to, as athletes, even high performers in any area, we've got to let go of personal history as soon as possible. You've got to let go of it. Good, bad or indifferent, you've got to let go of it. And if you drag it around, you'll only get what you expect. So my mindset was still on the heat. I should have just ditched that and subsequently I didn't make it through the final. And it should have been a walk in the park. It wasn't a difficult task. So there was probably an element of choking about it, but it came from just overwhelm on the wrong things at the wrong time. Turning it round for me was about understanding that we really needed to redefine the word failure, I feel, and I had to do that there. Instead of using the word failure, I used drop back or falling back. And my coach was very big on, like said, listen, we've just fallen back a little bit. Let's get this back on track and there was almost a sting taken out the tail. And once I started to play around with that and stop using the word failure, I was able then to cut loose what happened four days ago, three days ago, whenever it was. But we've got to get really good. If you want to be world class, you've got to get really good at ditching your personal history, good, bad or indifferent. So true.

Sounds like excellent advice. And, and you mentioned early on that you weren't even six foot tall. So it doesn't, you know, it doesn't sound like, I imagine all Olympic swimmers to be sort of six foot. Yeah. Built like a wardrobe. And, and yet you obviously. So you, you weren't naturally, you know, you were born to be a top swimmer. Were you sort of always a top swimmer as a kid or, you know, were you kind of blessed with some gift or has it come through hard work?

It's predominantly come through hard work. You know, I always make the joke of, like at the swimming club that I used to be at South Tyneside when I was a kid, I used to say to people, you know, give you an idea of how good I was when I was a kid. Kid, I was the fifth best swimmer in my age group in the club. And people kind of nod and go, oh, yeah. And then I said, but there was only five people in my age group at the club. And I joke about it, but, you know, my first coach, Ken Nesworthy, he was brilliant at kind of, yeah, just not just the water stuff, not just the coach and stuff. He was really good at kind of the mindset stuff. He didn't come from a swimming background, so he brought a huge amount of knowledge into sport and was willing to try different things and do different things. But his mindset was always about, listen, you don't have to fit the mold. We've got to go out and create it. There's so many times in life people will say things like, I'm going to go find a job or I need to find this new career. And when I'm coaching people, I said, let's forget about finding, let's create. Because when we create something, we take it into our power. When we find something, there's an element of kind of wishful thinking about it. And so we got to design the program. And we did that with that fingerprint in mind. You know, everyone's got a unique fingerprint, so take it out into the world and put a stamp on it. Because if you don't, you don't find people Like Usain Bolt, who, let's face it, look a little bit out of place in that field. You took a photograph, he looked like he got lost on the way to a basketball game.

He's huge.

Huge compared to those guys.

You see the camera panning across and then having to, like.

It's true. But if he'd have followed the model, the mold, it would have been, what, 5 foot 7 or whatever it is, and 5 foot 7 wide. Those guys are really stocky and, you know, quite short and stout and. But he didn't. And this is my point is when we go out in the world and we create it, we put our fingerprint on it, something different happens. Something different happens. And if you truly, truly, honestly want to be a world beater in any industry that you're in, by definition you have to do something different to the person who laid down before you. So you have to be different. And that's the mindset that I went with. And, you know, plenty of people said, oh, people from South Shields don't go to big games and do all this. You know, it's a working class town. Pick a different dream, lower your expectations. But there was always a. There was always a curiosity in me to, oh, I've got this far. I wonder if I could just get a little bit further, you know, a little bit cheeky, sort of, I've got away with it this far. Go the next one and see how far I get with this. And that's all it ever was. And before I knew it, I lifted my head up and I was like, oh, I'm at some pretty big meats now. I've got this far. I'm going to go again.

Yeah, well, you've mentioned it a few times and I've mentioned it as well. And we talked about the book and it was a book written by a guy called Simon Hartley, which was called Two Legs of the Pool, but it was based on the work you did with him and that realization of breaking down, almost like removing the Coronation Street, I guess you want to call it the drama. Just talk a little bit about where that fitted into the journey and then about that concept.

Yeah. So Simon was my sports psychologist. I met Simon after I was almost marched along there by my coach. I'd moved to the City of Newcastle Swimming Club and started at the University of Northumbria, and Simon Hartley was working as a sports psychologist there. And I got access through some funding from the university. And the reason I'd gone there is because I had some competition anxiety turned up to A competition hadn't performed as well as I wanted and we were a bit like me and my coach doesn't match up what's going on because it can't be physical because you're training really well and all the measures are in place. So went along and what I thought would only turn out to be a handful of sessions turned out to be eight plus years. Working together weekly, bi weekly, working together over the phone, face to face, anything depending where I was in the world. And Simon and I would meet regularly, chat about performance aspects and all sorts. And there was this one day in particular that I walked in his office and I was really stressed. And he went, he said, you look really stressed. What's the deal? And I said, I've got all this on. And I began to tell him and he said, well, that's a lot of work for someone who only has to swim two lengths of the pool as fast as he can. I was like, what, are you kidding? What? And there was this kind of argument erupted a little bit and he really triggered me. He placed me in a position where I was kind of triggered. And that's when I knew instinctively there was something in it. Whenever we're triggered, I truly, truly believe there's something in it for us, whether we want to hear it or not. Something there for you if you're brave enough to unpick it and unpack it.

Once you've stormed out and let the anger and everything die down and go.

Oh, actually wave the white flower. Yeah, that's true. And we started to explore it and it was a very simple. But the def. Kind of the caveat is not easy. You know, we got the top 10 in the world. Why were we asking this question, you know, that immediately I'd said to myself, but, you know, we've always done it this way or we've come this far doing this method. Why change it? Why question it? But actually, when we asked ourselves, is it going to help us swim two lengths faster? We started doing that with everything. And we slowly realized a little bit by little bit, there were certain aspects of training. We only did them because we only ever did them or someone handed them down. And when you consider that, you know, tradition is handed down by some people who don't live with us no more, you know, they're dead people. And what's the point in following that tradition if you. If you haven't created it? So it threw a lot of things into question and it started the process of working out, what is it that we truly need to be doing in order to perform. And it was revolutionary. And it changed everything, changed the way we approached training. It changed the way we even spoke, addressed one another. I'd walk into the physiotherapist room and she would have her two lengths. That helped my two lengths. So the team now started to work out, how does a physiotherapist help a swimmer get faster? And that's a really, really powerful question because ordinarily I'd go to her to just get fixed. She was now asking, hang on a second. I'm not just fixing you here. I'd love to add to the performance. And I think I can do these five or six things. Let's give them a go. So the level of conversation started to completely change, and that's where the two lengths was kind of spawned from, about. You hear all sorts of sports saying, you know, make the ball go faster. It's that sort of analogy, really.

Yeah.

I was going to say it sounds like marginal gains under. Under a different name, but that's what it's all about, isn't it?

It's almost not. Or is it marginal gains or is it getting the 80% right? Is it everything back to actually go? What's the 80% that we are. That we're not focused on because we're cluttering it with all this other stuff that we think we have to do as an athlete, as a professional. And there's a. There's a lot in. In that as well. You know, I'm guessing it was like. Well, you can say. But, you know, I'm guessing it was admin and travel and flights and everything else that. But. But it. I mean, you do have to do that to some extent as a job, but. Yeah. Is that ultimately going to make you go that two lengths faster?

It's true. And the marginal gains only really works if you truly surely know where you're going. Otherwise it's just shaving off 1% of something. You don't know whether it contributes wholly 100% or not. And that's the difference. If you know exactly what your North Star is, you know where you go and you know where you're heading, then you're able then to go, hang on a second. We could get a marginal gain over here and we can get a marginal gain over here. I love the idea of getting 100 things and doing them 1% better, but I like the idea that Simon comes with, which is get the big chunks nailed first. Yeah, big chunks nailed first. And then we'll Concentrate on the marginal gains. And I think that's where marginal gains got misinterpreted, got out into the open and nobody really looked under the iceberg to go. Hang on a second. What happened prior to that?

You got to do the basics right first.

That's it. And we believe in that.

If you're not doing the basics right, there's no point in the marginal gains because you're only going to be. Yeah, yeah.

If you get world class at doing the basics better than anybody else, you're three quarters of the way there. The rest is that marginal gain stuff. The rest is unpicking and unpacking the very finite detail. But you place yourself into a totally different stratosphere if you do the basics better than anyone else. You know, in our business, I've got a learn to swim business and a speaking and coaching business as well, and quite busy at the moment. But we've got really simple, straightforward strategies of what we're there to do. And for us in the learn to swim business, as we teach swimming, that's our two lines. Everything we do has got to help us teach swimming better because that's where we get judged on. That's where we pass or fail. We ask ourselves, how can we serve? That's it. Simple questions, how can we serve? And then we hold that up against the financials and work out, is it possible to do? That's just the bottom line stuff. But it always comes down to, is this going to help us teach women better during lockdown? You know, I lost both businesses. I lost the income from both businesses. I've had to bring them back. For me, it was really simple that the transition from speaking in front of large audiences, the message is exactly the same. The only thing that's changed is the stage. And when I sat down and looked at it, all I needed to do is adapt my message to a new stage. And now I've had the best months I've ever had. January, February, March, April, with record months by a country mile.

You mean when you say the stage is different, like you're doing it, you're still giving the message, you're still doing the talk, you're doing it via like we are now on Zoom. Yeah, yeah.

And I've met more people this year than I had done in the last five, which is crazy. And I'm really busy. So I was really busy before then, but it went through a slump because I wasn't being agile, I wasn't getting ready to move. And I think my personal feeling on the Current climate and how things are going to go for the next 10 years is the big skill in anyone's industry is going to be how agile are you?

Yeah, yeah.

And lockdown certainly gave people the opportunity to be entrepreneurial or to very much go down, go back within their shell, didn't it? And you saw businesses thriving in it, like you're now doing. But I think initially it was very easy just to kind of go into your shell. Was there any?

Was there any.

Is that kind of the mindset of becoming more agile? Is that. Do you think that's linked to stuff that you learned in the pool?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I think the one thing that I learned, the big, big lesson I learned was the biggest challenge of my life coming out the sport. I went through three or four year period where I wouldn't want to go there again. I don't know what I went through and I'm not really interested in defining it, but it was a really tough patch in my life. And the moment that I started to kind of climb out of it was the moment that I admitted to myself I was frightened to start again. I'd come from an Olympic final and then all of a sudden I was thrown into all sorts of different things and they were really cool and funky, but I didn't know if I wanted to do it. But I was worried about starting again. And I remember investing in someone's business, invested in this business, and his business was going to be amazing and I was going to be a director in it. And within six weeks, the guy took the money, folded the business and legged it. He just totally shafted us over. And I was angry, I was really angry at him for a long time until I realized actually I needed to take responsibility for the. I was desperate to be successful again, but I was desperate. So much so that I wanted to take a shortcut. And, and this is why we've got to be brutally honest. When you're brutally honest with yourself, just with yourself in your own space, that's where the. That's why when you can take on that challenge, it changes everything. So, yeah, my big lesson coming out the pool was, was that and how if you're not frightened to start again, it means that you haven't failed, you've just taken a route that just didn't work. It's an experiment. And experiments can't fail. They can't fail.

I love that. So I heard you say that on another podcast. I was listening to. I love that saying, experiments can't fail. Yeah, I Think there's a huge amount to be learned from that.

And.

So actually, before we come on to the business piece, because I want to explore that some more, actually, let's stay with it for a minute. How we've heard this quite a lot from other people, like Christa Cullen is the classic example of people struggling to leave the sport and start again. Is there any particular advice that you would give somebody going, whether it be they're packing up a sport as a professional athlete or selling a business and going and starting something again? Is there anything, any advice you'd give people around that?

Yeah, definitely. I think something that's kind of come good in the last seven years in my life is that stop looking for that next thing. You know, just give the thing that's in front of you 100% of your energy and focus and fall in love with hard work again in a totally different arena. Fall in love with laying down your best. Fall in love with being your best on that day. Even if it's sweeping the floor, I don't care. Fall in love with it and do it the best. Be the best sweeper the world has ever seen. Get in the world sweeping championships if you really want. But my point is that if you're doing something and thinking that you need to be somewhere else and find that other thing, you're now suffering an anxiety gap. And I think that's what a lot of athletes suffer, the big gap in between where they are to where they want to be, instead of just enjoying that moment and being the best they can. And when I started to do that, the contact in business that started to totally resonate and change with me was unbelievable. Opportunities started opening up. Different conversations were hard. I was more present and more able to respond to them because I wasn't trying to find that next thing. And I was just experimenting with brand new things. And eventually those goals and dreams started to pop in and those desires to want to do something came. But it took a long time. It took a long time, but the process was definitely, definitely helped by immersing myself, just giving my 100% and being really proud of it, whatever it was, massive difference.

Brilliant. What do you think the highlight of your sporting career was? I mean, there's obviously you had medals in the Commonwealth. There was, you know, being an Olympic final. What were the highlights?

Oh, definitely. Winning the Commonwealth was a big one. You know, that was a strong field. The men's breaststrokes are strong field always, but it was a strong field in that era as well. In that year, you Know, going there as British number one, Commonwealth number one, and coming out as British number one and Commonwealth number one for me was a real big tick in the box, because it's not easy to sleep on those sorts of things with that. People call it pressure, you know, but Simon always says, you can't fit pressure in a wheelbarrow, so it doesn't exist. That's not real.

I've heard that one.

And it's similar to my grandad when I was younger. He said, you know, if you can't fit it in a skip, it's not real. Always makes me laugh because it's so true. Because pressure is a story, but it doesn't stop the story feeling real. That's the difference. And, you know, going into the Commonwealth, coming out number one, going in number one was a great big tick in the box. Reaching an Olympic final, world champs 2005, I've got so many great memories, but I would say standing on the podium, listening to the national anthem, there's no better feeling. Like, it's just. It's just amazing. I got to do that twice in one week. It was just incredible. Looking at the crowd, looking at the family and just knowing I'd kind of put my stamp on the world of swimming.

What is it about Britain and breaststroke? Because when I move around the world and, like, I start, I was taught to swim as a kid, but not through squads and stuff like that. And then, so when I started triathlon and I was in Australia and would always get the piss taken out of me, going, oh, you're from the uk, you know, you're from Britain, you're from the uk, you can only do breaststroke kind of thing. And then obviously, you had an incredible career. First guy, first British guy to break 60 seconds as well, wasn't it? As well as those Commonwealth medals and stuff like that. Now we've got Adam Peaty, who's just taking. Taking it on. What. What is it with Britain and breaststroke? Why have we got this? Well, maybe it's you guys that we're blaming for the stereotype, but why is there this stereotype around the world?

It's an interesting question, though, and I've been asked it loads. You know, I've really sat down and thought about it. You know, we had David Wilkie, we've got Duncan Goodhue, we've had Adrian Morehouse, Nick Gillingham. Over the years, we've had a really strong pedigree coming through. And then obviously, I was part of a bunch with Adam Whitehead, Darren Mew, James Gibson, Ian Edmonds. There was a real strong bunch of us together and it was incredible. And we were all in the top 16 in the world at the time. So all five of us were in the top 16. So if you went to, I don't know, Leeds Christmas crack, I mean, it was nothing on the calendar other than just a race and a bit of fun. You were stood up there next to those guys. It was a world class event. It was like, I'm not gonna let him win, he's not gonna let me win, you know. And there was this big ding dong. But I honestly, I believe it comes from the fact that once you get one person within your ranks somewhere in your country who does, makes people believe that they can do it. Because what invariably happens is you look at that person and go, they're not that tall. You know, I've trained next to him, he's not that good. And what we do is we go into those environments and we start to normalize them. That's what we do. Our brain starts to go, he's just a normal guy. He's only got two arms and two legs and all the stuff I've got.

But his feet are out like this. Yeah.

In size 20.

Everyone in England walks with their feet out like a duck.

I do a good duck impression. Yeah. But then we do start to normalize it and that happens. And then obviously when those guys get results and they come back, it makes everybody else start to believe. And then when you're racing those people, you forget how much of a motivating factor that is. So when I was racing James Gibson, knowing that he was number two in the world, I knew if I got closer and closer to him, there's a good chance I'm going to be number three or four. That's a massive motivating factor. Then when you go out to these world class events, you've got to realize that you're going to get in the final and you're going to be fighting for medals because you've leapfrogged over someone who was in that position. So I think it all starts with that initial person in the ranks. Get them there. And then other people go, well, if he's done it, I can do it.

There's a phrase that I like and I use it more on the women's side of the sport because, you know, not or any sport, but what you can't see, you can't be, oh, I like that. And it's that importance of role models and it's a little bit like I Think what you're saying. You know, if there's one person that started it and is in that mix, and then you start to see them. And like you said, you sort of got into swimming or you saw Adrian Morehouse, so you saw someone achieve. I guess that's a little bit. What is that sort of similar to what you're trying to inspire with the work you do with the school programs and stuff now?

Yeah, definitely. So over the last 10 years, I spent trotting around schools. I've kind of slowed that right down now because I work in businesses and I do lots of conferences around the world and all sorts. But the school's work was really, really interesting. And you know what I always found amazing? This happened everywhere I went, over 600 schools. Often I'd be chatting to the teacher or the head teacher, and they would say, we do all right, considering we're from X. Doesn't matter where I was. So if I was in Kent, you know, we do all right, considering we're from this area. And I'm yet.

Is that a British thing, though, as well?

I think it might be. And yet it's so interesting because I've yet to walk in a place that goes, hey, we do all right because we're from here. It seldom happens. So there's kind of this almost this imposter syndrome running through. I think it is. I think it's a human thing, but I do think it's compounded by our culture. But, yeah, that fascinated me to get out there and just get under the skin of it and just say, be careful of the story you tell yourself because you believe it. And I believe in the power of storytelling. Not just outward, but inward. That inward story is the most important conversation you'll ever, ever have, because that sets up the next action, that sets up your behaviors, that sets up what you believe you can have. And I always say to people, you know, it's easier to get what you truly want than get what you believe you can have, because what you believe you can have is already there. What you truly want is buried so deep inside that when you start exploring it, you bring out gifts that weren't there in the first place, because you have to shift to get it. You know, I really, really, really, really wanted to go to the Olympics in order to get there. I had to be extraordinary. I had to be extraordinary first if I wanted extraordinary to happen to me. And we have to do. We have to do. We have to be extraordinary habitually. And we need to commit to those habits without Guarantee. And it's that last bit that people don't like. Yeah, they want the certainty. They want to go. So if I commit seven years of my life to this, would you guarantee me a spot on the plate? No, actually. What happens if I do 10? No, the odds don't really change. They just don't. But people want that guarantee at the end. But if we. The true journey, and I say this a lot to young people, is when you go on a journey to achieve anything, it's not the thing you have in your hands, around your neck at the end, it's the person you've become on the pursuit. That's the real goal. Because when you look back over any career, that's the bit you want to be really proud of, is look at the person I've become. Look at the person I've become. Look how different I am to when I first started this. And that is such an empowering way of looking at things. Whenever you kind of look back over your view, because you're not measuring it against anyone else, you're measuring you against you. And that's the way of reviewing reflection should always, always be. But in this world of competition.

I was gonna say, it's so hard in this world, isn't it? I mean, even, like, I find it hard in my sport, but like, I just think the. The generations coming through now, when social media is such a massive part. And then. And almost like, more so than going through lockdown, because our engagement is through online activities and you're looking at people constantly and that comp. And so on the one hand, it's good because what you can't see, you can't be. So we want to see those role models, we want to see those people achieving. But at the same time, you've got to remember it's your journey and you're measuring yourself against being a better version of you the next day it is.

And, you know, I put out a post on LinkedIn and I got a lot of traction. I think it really resonated with people. I said, you know, in any given moment, you got a choice to be bitter or better. Especially when you go through a really tough patch, you can either come out the other end and you can either ask yourself questions that facilitate you becoming better. And they're hard. They're really hard. It's not easy, but it is simple. Or you can follow the bitterness route and blame and throw that kind of toys out the pram. And that's made a massive difference for me. That stops me in My tracks now to go. Hang on a second. I know I'm triggered here, but am I really working towards being better or am I still telling a story of bitterness because I haven't ditched it or I haven't really worked through it? It's really hard, and I don't find that easier. I don't struggle with it. I just have to constantly paint the bridge on it. And once I've finished one end, I have to go back and start again.

Yeah. Gosh, that makes. I love that. That makes so much sense. Like the bitter or better. It's how you. Yeah. Something happens. How can you kind of process it, but then let it go and move on to being better? I. I'm fine. There's a few things that have happened to. To me of late. And I'm like, even now you say that. I'm like, yes, you're just being. You're still bitter about it, still hanging on to it. But. And it's. No, I can't control it. I can't do anything about it. It's. Yeah.

And I think we have to be really. Yeah, I think we have to be careful of two things. One, the story we tell ourselves is the story we'll play the script from. So when you say things like, and I can't do anything about it, often you then act that out and your mind goes, yeah, that's right. We can't, can we? The next action, you can't do anything about it. And I'm always really. I'm listening to the words that I'm saying. I'm listening to the words I'm using. I can see me perpetuating some problems in my life. But the second thing is to work out, are you in a reactive mode? Are you in a responsive mode? Because a reactive one is emotional. It's quick, it jumps the gun, it's charged, and it's not very thought through. Where a responsive one is emotions taken out black and white. Let's just sit down, work out the facts here. Let's really work out what are the facts minus the story. And when we start doing that, we see that there's just something different there. And it is that difference between, you know, am I reacting to this situation or am I learning to respond better? And that's where I believe some of the biggest personal development. Aha. Moments come from. I'm convinced of it.

Is this learning to deal with your chimp brain.

Yeah, it's got a bit of chimp paradox about it, in fact, that really resonated with me when Steve Peters put that out, and I'd heard him speak at a conference about two years before. So I kind of. And I'd heard things on the grapevine within Team GB of things dripping out, but one thing that really helped me was. And it was, I'm sure it was Sir Chris Hoy who said it. I can't remember. One of the cyclists said it. You know, he said, when you go up to race, you're either worried or excited. On the continuum, on the excited and worried continuum, those feelings are exactly the same, they just come from a different place. So the worry is often your subconscious mind saying, you're not ready, there's something missing. The excited is, I'm ready, I can't wait. And what our job is to do in sport or in any industry is to make our way from worry by work and working through all those things towards excitement. And I see this a lot with public speaking. I help people public speaking, part of my coaching, I'm not your natural public speaker, but I've learned how to do it and read an audience and just done it organically. But I see that with public speaking, people are petrified. Make a start and then they go, right, well, that wasn't so good, so I'll just keep on working. And slowly but surely, they just get better and better. They get to a point where they go, I really, really, really want to share this stuff tomorrow. I'm still a little bit worried, but, you know, I really want to share this stuff. And the excitement starts to take over and that's when you know the balance is tipped. A wonderful feeling when you get someone there, it's a wonderful feeling.

So if you, if you've got, if you've got somebody going into a race, and particularly at the moment, you know, we didn't have races last year for anyone and things, but now races are coming back. So a lot of people haven't raced for a long time and you've got this, as you said, this continued line of worry to excitement. And they're very similar emotions. How do you. Is there anything you can say to the athlete to help them get move along that line?

Yeah, definitely. Especially after the year we had, I think the main area of focus, and I'm working with a couple of athletes at the moment, you know, working on what they can, not what they want. In a moment, when you are constrained by uncertainty, facilities not being open, you have to switch your mind to focusing on what you can do, not necessarily what you want to do. There's a Big difference there. Because what you want to do, you want everything perfect, you want everything shiny. And we've got to focus on the progress of it and not the perfection. And we've got to immerse ourselves in that process. But by definition, most athletes are perfectionists. They are. They want things perfect. And it's that dance that as you get older and you make that leap into that senior level. That's where I believe a lot of athletes get it. Right or wrong, they either stay with perfection and they almost don't get off the blocks because they're waiting for that right moment and they're trying to perfect something that never will instead of working on the progress of it. Is it a little bit better than it was yesterday? Brilliant. Then we're on track and we keep on getting up and we keep on putting that in place, and we do that. But in moments like this, we have to focus on what we can. So, for example, I'm coaching a swimmer at the moment, and he's been out the water for over a year, which is just extraordinary. Now he's come back and he started doing personal bests after about nine weeks of training. And the only way we could do it was just get him racing. Don't judge it against anything you used to do. Don't hold it up against it and focus on what you can in every race. And when we come out, we work out what went well and what's going to be even better. And we keep on doing that and we keep on working on what's working well. Even better. So his start was great. His first length was great. And then the wheels came off and he said, I just hung on for grim death. Like, okay, park it there. So the first 20 meters was great. Let's roll with it. And we built it from there and we went, can we make 25 now? Yeah, go on then. And a turn. Yeah, go on. So the next race, it was that. And then before we knew it, it got down to the last 10 meters where the wheels came off. And now we're pb ing. But it came from that conversation of we have to focus on what we can, not what we want, because what we want is kind of gone now. We're in extraordinary times. I'm excited for his future. He's making a massive move now, and, yeah, I'm excited for him.

Brilliant. What are your thoughts around the kind of stride towards. I mean, obviously while the pools were.

Closed.

The stride towards open water swimming and kind of the enthusiasm that. That has embraced?

Yeah, I love It, I went open water swimming, believe it or not. I didn't need a black line and fluffy towels. How fancy that. I went open water swimming.

If you went open water swimming up in the northeast, it would all be black. There wouldn't be any. The water would just be like.

And cold. And cold. Yeah, tell me about it. I went about five years ago and absolutely loved it. And you know, I started doing front crawl. I didn't even know there was another stroke. Who knew? Who knew? And I just loved it. And actually I felt as though there would be times in my career where if I'd have known that I would have gone and done that because it was so liberating and different and I was just swimming along next to wildlife and oh, it was phenomenal. But I just so pleased that swimming, open water triathlon, so many things that involved in big open swimming events now are becoming a big deal. Not just for elite, but for everyone. It's you know, great North Swim, all the great swim series around Scotland, all that, they're just fantastic events. And the big crowd pullers, obviously in a non Covid world they're even better. But it's just great to see swimming and done in that way because historically we haven't been that nation that has done that. We haven't been a nation who go swim. We haven't. It's great to see and it's almost.

Like, I mean it's been incredible watching the, I don't really call it boom, but the growth in, in open water swimming like last year because you know you couldn't, you couldn't go to the pool but people were desperate to kind of get out and feel some connection with something. And so crazy as it was in the uk, all decided to go open water swimming, which is freezing, but anyway. And now I can't. But yeah, it's. And it's like you said, it's, it's weird because we're not a nation known as swimmers. So just to see everyone embrace it has been, has been really cool with.

This kind of new enthusiasm. There's a lot of people that are kind of getting back into swimming that haven't, haven't done much swimming for many years. Is there any tips that you can give them on. I know swimming tips over a podcast is really difficult. Are there any common mistakes that people make, whether it be breaststroke, whether it be crawl that you can say those are the things that, that's where your low hanging fruit is.

Front crawl, that's another very British thing.

Yeah, it is. It really is. So if anybody is doing front crawl, or freesty, however you call it, you've got it. The main part is, and I always teach this, is your head position determines your body position. So if you think about your head is attached to your spine. So at the top end, your head, it sits, and then your spine goes all the way down to your hips. Now, our face needs to be in the water with a nice, comfortable, neutral position, almost like you're walking down the street with a tiny little incline looking up forwards. And when you do that, you produce a nice flat body position. If your hips are too low, it means that there's kind of a resistance. Your head's up, your neck's created pressure goes all the way down and ends up manifesting at the bottom end, which is low hips. So head position first is always key. Second, when I'm teaching from crawl, is always allow that body to roll. Allow your head to roll with your body. A natural roll. A lot of people come into swimming kind of later on and do these triathlons and all sorts. And they're very stiff, very flat and very stiff and very splashy. If you just allow the stroke to happen almost like a windmill and a nice even flow from side to side, you'll often find that most people swim faster, going slower, because they're not creating resistance. And then the last thing is work on the feel. Always work on the feel. So people want to see this stroke. They're desperate to see it. And I will say to people, you know, you've got other senses there. Like, have you ever tried listening to your stroke? Like, what, What? I'm like, yeah, your stroke's got a rhythm. Listen to it. And when they start listening to the stroke, they go, oh, yeah, there's a bit. There's a bit of a clunk at the end of one of my armpit. What's that? And they start to feel it from a totally different angle. And those three things. Honestly, I've had some real big breakthroughs with people who've been doing triathlons and all sorts. And I have to be really careful because when I ever say this, I get a deluge of emails and people go, teach me, teach me, teach me how to do it.

I was just writing notes.

And an email requesting some lessons.

I swam yesterday and this morning in the pool, and I said to the person next to me, I said, is the water particularly slow today? And bless, it's an Irish. An Irish girl that's over here. And she was like, I think the answer you want me to say is yes. So let's go with that. Yes, good answer. Let's go.

Great answer. I hate those mornings.

We'Ve touched on books, but I know you're a big fan of people like Tony Robbins and Jim Rowan. Where do you see that, the work that those guys, I mean, for many people that don't know much about them, they'll, you know, they think it's some cult of people sort of standing on chairs, jumping up and down and cheering. He's very un British. But we do, some of us manage it occasionally. But what are your thoughts on how books like that, which aren't obviously sport related at all, can impact an athlete?

Oh, do you know Jim Rohn is one of mine. He's one of my heroes, genuinely is. Whenever, when I come across his work, I can see his work in other people's likes of Tony Robbins and so many other people that I read. He seems to, for me, I might be wrong here, he seems to be kind of the godfather of that kind of movement in many respects. I don't know whether I'm bigging him up too much here or there's someone who was before him. But the thing I love about it's a couple of things. The first thing is, you know, there's an element of discovery. You know, these guys have kind of founded a lot of this stuff, gone out and tried and tested it, and grown really successful businesses that weren't there in the first place. You know, I remember Jim Rohn in one of his books or one of his passages that I was listening to, actually, he said, you know, everything that you see was once someone's idea. And it, like, it really made me think a lamppost was someone's idea. So someone's designed it, someone's placed it there, someone's planned it there. It was never there before a person turned up and he, and he really got me in that podcast or that ebook, whatever it was, it got me into the frame of mind to start to think, if everything that's here was designed by someone, why can't I put my print on the world? And I think when anybody comes along and kind of makes you feel comfortable being disrupted is what I'm trying to say, then they need that space to be listened to. And people like that do it themselves. It's not like they're just trying to tell you to do it, they do it themselves. And that's what I love about them. And the second thing I really love is a lot of the stuff they talk about is not just transferable, it's possible. It makes things possible. And I used them in my swimming career. I come out of sport and started using them in my business life. Still do to this day. I'll throw on a book, an audible book, and I'll just listen to it. And it just changes the way you view things because we often get stuck in our own story. We get stuck in the drama, the Coronation street drama of who said what, who did what. And it's all nonsense when you really cut through it. And moments like that can really bring you back to center, really ground you back to center. I find.

Brilliant. Are there any other books that you kind of find yourself recommending quite a lot other than obviously Two Lengths of the Pool, but any other books that you find yourself keep coming back to?

Yeah, there's a couple. Anything by Simon Sinek. I just love that guy. I think he's absolutely phenomenal. I love his YouTube channel. I think he takes what's complicated and makes it simple, which is right up my street. And someone said to me the other day, I was doing a podcast, someone said, oh, that sounds very Simon Sinek. I said, you know, honestly, everything he says I believe in. I've either done it myself and I've come to the same conclusion or he's concluded something that I've done, I've gone. That's a brilliant way of concluding it. Anything with Simon Sinek. There's a great book at the moment. Is it the Boy, the Mole, the Horse and the Fox? Have you seen that?

Yes, I have it. I have it. It's great.

It's magic. It isn't a Charlie Maxi. I think it is.

Yes, that's right. And he's been posting like, he posts stuff on Instagram like every day and it.

Oh, it's amazing. Amazing. Just life altering book where you just come back, back to what is real. And there's some real lovely, subtle messages in there with a powerful impact. Super powerful. Just a beautifully written book. And then I'm reading another book at.

The moment just to jump in there for Charlie because that book, the Boy, the Horse and the Mole is definitely. Charlie listens to audiobooks. That's definitely not an audiobook you have because it's an illustrative book. So you have to get the physical book and to be able to like see the illustrations, see the story going that way. You're not going to listen to that one.

No, but I do know the book because we've got it. And also I gifted it to one of my team that was struggling mentally during lockdown and it really helped her through. It is a fantastic book. So I totally concur with that one.

Sorry.

That's great. That's great.

You're about to give another book as well, Chris.

Yeah, and the last one, that's really. It's a bit of a challenging one this, because we often pick up books that resonate with us, don't we? And I like to go a little bit left field. I'm an outer harmony person, so my go to my default is helping people to have fun around me in my presence. That's my. Sometimes it catches me out, you know, people pleasing. I'm typical people pleaser and I've gone for a book that's called the Courage to Be Disliked. And it's. It's a fascinating read and it's the. It's a story of. It's basically the story of a philosopher and a young person talking and talking about the dramas, the trials and tribulations of life and the philosopher, bringing it back to some very simple and cornerstone ideas. But it's really challenging because it's really making me think, because it gets you to step off the drama triangle, not be a victim, not be the persecutor and all of that and step into what is real here. So, yeah, that's called the Courage To Be Disliked. I can't remember who it's by, but I think it's three and a half million copies sold worldwide. You know, it was a bestseller at one point.

Brilliant. And I've not heard of that book, so I'm definitely going to be looking that. That, looking that up. That sounds fantastic. I thought you were going to. I heard you mention a book in another podcast, which I totally love, but I haven't read it for ages and it reminded me to go back to it. The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Again, is there a message? When I'd not done my first travel, I don't even think I owned a bike at the point where I listened to the Power of Now. Is there a message there? Again, from a sports point of view?

Yeah, definitely. That book actually changed my life, as cheesy as it sounds. I don't care how cheesy it sounds. It changed my life, that one. I read it in 2000 and end of 2004, start 2005, got to the end and went, what did I just read here? I just couldn't get my head around it. I was like, what? What, what? So I've read it again and again and I pick it up systematically, just different times. I'll pick it up and I read it. And honestly, hand on heart, I must be on my ninth read. And I swear, he keeps putting someone, keeps sneaking another chapter in somewhere because I seem to read it on a different level. And I think that's what that book's meant to be. I think it's meant to. I think it's designed in such a way. Eckhart Tolle is a genius because he's written it in such a way that it definitely brings you back to the present. Because my mind, I don't know about your mind, is obsessed with the past and the future. I'm often recalling experiences from the past and projecting it in the future. And this book is all about. Actually, the only thing you truly have is now and 2005 onwards. That's when my career started taking off and I started to implement some of the really simple tools in the book. Simple things like, you know, when you're doing a task, throw yourself into that task instead of doing the task, thinking about something else, something as simple as washing the dishes. Just wash the dishes and be mindful of the feel of the water on your hands and the things that you're handling and not just be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to have that conversation with that guy tomorrow. Yeah, def. I'm going to say this now. We do that a lot. Past and future. Past and future. And what I started to realize was because I was more present, more. More kind of coincidences started happening or maybe I was just more aware of it. But I've had some seriously profound coincidences happen in my life to the point where I've written them down. And people would say, you're lying. Honestly, they're crazy. And I definitely think there's something in that. Serendipity and the power of now. I don't know what, and I don't profess to know, but what I am saying is I can't ignore it is what I'm saying.

I totally, you know, I loved it when I, when I listened to it. I'm pretty sure I listened to that one as I listened to most of them. And I really loved it, but I just hadn't really thought about going back to it and. But you're right, some books are like that in that whenever you read them, there's something else happening in your life and they have a different message. I always think influence by Dr. Cialdini is, is another book like that. Every time I read it, there's something that comes out. I know the stories with it so well. But it's like, oh, but this is what's happening in our business at the moment. And this is how I can apply his principles is totally. So I'm going to go back to the power now.

So good stuff.

I will add it to my list.

Amazing.

But I'm so bad at reading. It takes forever.

You get on a long bike ride, listen to a book, you'll have done. You'll have done a book in a row.

No, I'm very sorry. I'm very anti. Anti headphones on riding. I'll do it when I'm running a podcast. I do podcasts and running, but I just like to suffer with my own chimp on a long bike ride like I did today.

And Chris, to sort of wrap things up, what are you most excited about looking forward?

Oh, that's a great question. There's so many things, you know, I've got a growing family that it's just great to watch them grow and develop. Business is starting to come back now. You know, I've ventured into coaching within business, individuals, small groups, big groups, conferences have started to come back not just physically, but also virtually. I think there's a real opportunity virtually now to just connect on a different level. And I'm just excited for it all. You know, I embrace uncertainty now. I embrace uncertainty because I've come this far through uncertainty all my life. I'm sure I can tackle the next bit of uncertainty. And, you know, we get confidence from evidence, don't we? Whenever you get some evidence, you just grow that little bit more confident in what you do. And there's so many things to be grateful for. It just depends on where you set your focus. And you know, for me, I am focused on all the good stuff and determined to weed out the negative stuff. Whether that comes in the form of a person situation or whatever. Yeah, I just, I'm loving the challenge. And I'll be honest with you, I think I'm happier now. I know I'm happier now than I ever have been. And it's not that I wasn't happy before. I just feel like I've uncovered the true me now. And I'm 42. I've got prospects that I never had two years ago that are just as exciting as ever. And yeah, it's an exciting time to be alive.

Amazing. That sounds totally brilliant. And it's incredible to see that you've kind of emerged out of that difficult time post sporting career, but are now blossoming in a totally new career and you have started many new things. So, Chris, it's been totally brilliant chatting to you.

There is.

I've written so many notes. There's so many sound bites from this. I'm like, so much good advice in this. So it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. And yeah, I look forward to seeing your career continue to evolve. You can find out more about chris@chriscookgb.com and also you can find out more about swim buddies@swim buddies.co.uk and Chris is also on Twitter at. He's at Chris Cook gb. So I'll put all of those links in the show notes. So, Sid, what did you make of that chat with Chris Cook?

Well, I think that's kind of gone up to like one of my favorite interview chats of the podcast today. And I know we say that about everyone and we have, we've been lucky, been lucky to interview some amazing people. But yeah, it was, it was awesome. I was scribbling away notes as I always do anyway, but just, just so many little messages that. And phrases and stuff that came out of that. And I do wonder when you, when you're speaking to someone like that because their work and their business now is in storytelling, it's in conveying messages. So they've, they've obviously got it dialed in to some extent, but there's just so and so they. Yeah, I don't know. There's just so much to pick up. I loved it. It was great. He was fascinating.

I totally agree. I was absolutely brilliant. There was loads of brilliant advice in there. Sound bites. I normally sort of scribble notes as to kind of little snippets I want to come back to. And I was, yeah, I've got lots. And then I stopped because I've got. But there was some brilliant ones and I mean I love pro. I use progress, not perfection quite a lot anyway. I love that. I loved his worry through to excitement stuff. I thought that was, that was really world class at the basics. I thought was really, really interesting.

And I think I was writing things down like you can be bitter or you can be better.

Yes.

I'd got the same. The worried too exciting and funnily like how it's the same emotion but it's very different. Also things like being that reactive or responsive mode to a situation. Oh yeah. Like it's not failure, it's just dropping back or falling back.

Yeah. And you cut and you can't fail in an experiment.

Exactly. That's what I just about to Say experiments you can't fail. You can't fit pressure in a wheelbarrow. That was another one. And then that, you know, you don't have to follow the mold. Like, if you create it and you can, you have kind of that accountability. You have hold of it and, you know, go out into the world and go and create and be different.

Yeah.

Don't find, create. And yeah, I was just looking at that as well. And I thought his suggestion, I thought he did an excellent job of telling us how to improve our swim stroke over a podcast. I think that's. And committing to Habits without Guarantee was another one that I really liked. So.

Yeah, again. And another one like don't be frightened to start again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So much, so much good advice and plenty of books to, to add to the reading list too.

Definitely some good, good, good book options. The other thing I going back, I liked his, like rephrasing and changing the language. So going from hope to think to believe to know.

Yeah.

So like talking about, you know, I hope this goes okay to say I think it's going to go okay or I believe it's going to go okay to I know it's going to go okay. And that those levels of confidence and like the story, the story you tell yourself is often the one that will come true. So be careful of the story you tell well.

And actually those last two points are right out of the. We touched on Tony Robbins. They're right out of Tony Robbins, his playbook, the language that we use. And I remember reading one of, I think it was Awaken the Jar within, where he, he says, you know, when you stub your toe, you can either swear like crazy and it hurts like mad or you can, you can go, oh, that was frightfully annoying. And then it kind of, you just kind of, you laugh at yourself using stupid language and then of course, you feel better as a result. So the language really and the story you tell yourself is incredibly powerful. So, so, yeah, really, really brilliant interview with Chris Cook. And yeah, just a final reminder as I leave you to. And actually we'll leave you to carry on with your training. But a final reminder that there will put the discount code for precision hydration in the show notes. But it's Tribeathlon 15 and there is that new carb calculator that you can have a play with as well. So enjoy your training, Sid.

Thank you.

And for everybody else, yep, keep on training as well. If you've enjoyed this Tribathlon podcast, please do go to Apple Podcasts and rate it and review it. It massively helps us to deliver a better podcast. It helps people find it as well. So yeah, go to Apple Podcasts, give us some feedb, give us a rating and a review, and please share it with your friends. Because ultimately that's what allows us to keep delivering more and more of these podcasts. And don't forget to download the tribathlon app for more amazing podcasts, but also to help you train, compete, and to build your tribe.