Double Ultra Rounds with Nicky Spinks

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Athlon podcast, finding out how ordinary people do extraordinary things.

When I was told I had cancer, that was like, well, crikey, there's loads of things I wanted to do. And I've always just thought I'm gonna have all these years in front of me and I might not have.

That was Nicky Spinks and this episode is Double Ultra Rounds. When it comes to felled running, Nicki Spinks is nothing short of a legend. So in this episode of the Tri Bathlon podcast, I wanted to get a little bit more of an understanding as to what it takes to be a top fell runner and a top ultra runner. So Nicky came into fell running really, or came into notoriety by setting the female record for the Bob Graham round, which I'm sure most of you will know already, but is a 66 mile round route across 42 tops in the Lake District and it has to be completed within 24 hours. So Nikki set the female record for that some time ago, since been surpassed actually by Beth Pascal, who we've also featured on the Tribathlon podcast. But having recovered from cancer, Nikki decided to try and do something even more special than just trying to set another Bob Graham record. And so she did a Bob Graham double and she was at the time only the second person to complete that within the 48 hour window. And she set and still holds the Bob Graham double record for, for male and female. And then she went on to do a double for both the Charlie Ramsey, which is the Scottish equivalent of the Bob Graham, and the, the Paddy Buckley which is the Welsh equivalent of the, of the Bob Graham. She's also competed in the infamous Berkeley Marathon which is just a mind boggling event that is trying to make a hundred mile race as difficult as they possibly can. So it's absolutely incredible what that Nikki's achieved, but also her matter of fact approach to, and back to basics approach to nutrition, to her approach to training. It's just a breath of fresh air and it was also lovely to hear about the impact of the people around her, her tribe within the Fell running community. So I have absolutely no doubt you're going to really enjoy this, this interview with the legend that is Nikki Spinks. This podcast is brought to you by Innovate Running Shoes. Anything that's good enough for Damien hall and Nikki Spinks to run the incredible distances along the trails that they do.

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So go to tribathlon.com to find out more and download the app. So I'm absolutely delighted and excited to have Nikki Spinks on the Tri Bathlon podcast. I've been kind of learning about Nikki and all the incredible things that she's been doing over quite a few years. And so I can't wait to talk to you, Nikki, about all the sort of stuff that you've been doing. So for those people that don't know you and those people that aren't kind of familiar with the fell running world and all the, you know, what Bob Graham round is and all those sorts of things, can you give people a little bit of a potted history of kind of how you got into running, some of the things that you've been going, you know, you've been achieving along the way and kind of just, yeah, give us a potted history of what you've been up to.

Well, I suppose I was running around. I was brought up on a farm in Glossop and I was running around there as a kid. So I was pretty fit without really knowing it. And I think then when I left that and went into the office at sort of 17, I soon put on the weight and I soon knew that I was unfit. So I've been running sort of most of my life in a way, but all that time was always just to keep the weight off. So it was three times a week, four to six miles. You know, there was some pleasure in it, but really it was just to keep fit. And then I met my husband in 1991 and moved to the farm and I Didn't have to run then because we were farming. But I met some friends in 2000, one foot mousier and they were running and I just started running back up then because I was. Yeah, I was missing it, I think. And it was a good way to explore the local countryside around here, I think from there I did my first foul race, which is the Trunts in Penniston. I was terrified. It's four miles, 500 foot climb. I went and wrecked it. So I thought I was going to get lost because I'd heard all these things about people getting lost on foul races and I think that just the camaraderie and it was so different than the road races that I'd been doing. Like I did a 10k in the great North Run and it was just so different doing a foul race. The weather was foul, you got wet and muddy and everyone just joined together. You know, they helped you and you helped them and you all went to the pub afterwards. It was just where I wanted to be. So it went from there, really. I joined Penniston Footpath Runners and there was a guy actually in 2005 doing the Bob Graham and when I heard of that, I just thought that was going to be the pinnacle of my running career. If I could ever get around the Bob Graham. That's why I trained for. Straight away. I just started going to the lakes and I completed that in 2005.

For those people that don't know what Bob Graham round is, do you want to remind us what it is?

There's a circuit in the Lake district of about 65 miles and 10,000 meters of climb. I think I'm not great on distances in a sense. It's all time with me. You've got four hours to complete it and there are 42 mountains that you've got to touch the tops of the circuit. You start and finish at Keswick.

And how did your first Bob Graham attempt go? And. Yeah, so tell us about that.

I had a low spot at 4 o' clock in the morning, which I've now learned is quite a normal time to have a low spot because you. I set off at half six at night. So you go through the night and you don't feel too bad, but then your body just goes, hang on a minute, it's now daylight. And where did you. Where did sleep go? We're not happy. And you're still trying to put food down me and I'm not. Yeah. So you tend to have a bit of a sickness bit. But once I got over that I actually just enjoyed the rest of it. We finished in 23 and a half hours, which. And yeah, I didn't find it too hard. So that's when I started looking at the Paddy Buckley after that, which is a big step up from the Bob Graham just because the ground's so much more technical and it's sort of fiddly routes through a lot more rocks.

And the Paddy Buckley is essentially the.

Welsh equivalent of the Bob Grain mound. And it's a bit longer as well, isn't it?

Yeah, it's slightly longer and it's got 47 tops. But I think, yeah, generally, yes, it's slightly longer and it's got a little bit more ascent in it, but it is actually just the terrain that makes it that much harder and so on, something like that.

How much of it are you running and how much of it are you scrambling? Just, you know, just to give people an idea of, you know, how tough the terrain is.

Yeah, I think the general rule is to run the downs and jog the flats and then walk really strongly on the up hills. Yeah, I think that's the general idea. But obviously when you get onto the Paddy, you've got to go slightly faster. So you're still running, you're still walking most of the climbs, but you do run sort of slightly uphill as well.

Right, okay. And what came after the Paddy Buckley then?

Yeah, the Scottish equivalent, which is the Charlie Ramsey Round. And that having never really I climbed Ben Nevis as like a tourist, but never really linked any of the any mountains together. It's harder in a different way because there are only three legs, there's 24 Munro, so the hills less of them, but they're just twice as big. And there's sections where there are absolutely no paths, so you're just bashing through header, which is very time consuming and tiring. And then your support have got to be that much more sort of self sufficient and they've got to be capable of carrying your stuff and running with you for sort of seven or eight hours. Whereas the other rounds are sort of cut up into sort of five legs, which is of like four hours, which is easier for a supporter to support on.

So of those three rounds, which is your favorite?

Well, I'm always torn between the Welsh one and the Scottish one. Really? The Welsh one, because of there's a lot of history. You go through three minds and you can just see the history in the mines, in, you know, what we're doing, we're tramping around for pleasure. These people had to climb 500 meters just to clock in to work one of every day. The sort of. Yeah, so I do love the Paddy Buckley round. And also I did it twice because I did it once before I had breast cancer and once afterwards. So while I was recovering from breast cancer. It was my focus, it was what was keeping me going and got me out of bed and trained, still training and everything. And then the Scottish one's just really remote. So you're out there, you rarely meet anyone. So it's completely different than say the Bob Graham. Yeah, I think it's that. It's the remoteness and the views where you can. If you look into the distance, all you see is bumps and bumps. More, more bumps, just mountains.

Fantastic.

But it is.

I mean, these are amazing parts of the uk, aren't they? And what a brilliant way to be seeing them. And so after doing the Bob Graham round, you then went back and set a fastest known time for it, I think, which was. Which was about 18 hours something, I think.

Yeah, the first one was the weather came in halfway around, but I still did it in 18 hours and 12 minutes and I always thought I could do it faster. So I did have another attempt a couple of years later, but the weather was too hot and I fell and cut my hand early on leg one and I managed to knock six minutes off, but yeah, so I held the rest.

Sounds pretty amazing.

And I was listening to a podcast where you were interviewed. I think it was the Ultra Trail guys and they were comparing it to Scott Durek's attempt.

And you know, Scott Durek, well known.

Having read the Born to Run book.

And loved it, you know, very well known guy, your.

Your Bob Graham round was faster than his, which, which just puts it all in perspective. That's. I mean, that is absolutely incredible. But I mean, and these rounds, I just, you know, kind of. I've never done any fell running but have been reading Feet in the Clouds. I've not finished it yet, but it's just such an amazing, it seems to be such an amazing sport and community. How was it coming into that as a. You know, because obviously you're coming into it, you didn't grow up in that environment. So how was it coming into the fellow running community and what's it meant.

To you to be a part of it?

Yeah, well, I sort of realized that, I mean, to do the rounds you need support and you need. I realized that you need to learn what these other guys have learned before you. So, you know, I joined Dark Peak because There's more. There's more there. The older guys in there, they've done all these rounds before and I used to sort of just like stalk them and ask them questions and get in there and then they were. It is the etiquette. Not the etiquette, but it's the way of the foul running that, you know, one person who's done it will show another person how to go on. You know, we'll go, you know, I was up in the. In Scotland a couple of weeks ago with a guy who wants to do the Charlie Ramsey next year, and I was sort of, you know, I know how to do logistics and things like that for a recce and things. It's all part of it. And you go out there together and you just discuss the route and you. I show him the route and we discuss other options and things. So, yeah, the guys at Dark Peak sort of took me to Wales and then took me to Scotland and showed me. Showed me the ropes, really. And.

Yeah, isn't that fantastic that potentially you're.

Taking somebody that's there maybe going to try and beat your record, for example, but you're supporting them in doing that. And I think that's. That's a wonderful thing.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's really exciting to actually see now what women are doing, you know, like Beth Paschal on the BG last week. Well, and Jasmine before her, you know, I mean, you know, not just knocking like a few minutes off my record, but sort of completely running away with it and then somebody else being able to beat her record. It's. It's really exciting.

Well, it was amazing.

So I interviewed Beth on the podcast about a month or so ago, and I asked her specifically about, what do you think you'll ever do the Bob Graham round? And she said, well, it's not really on my agenda. You know, I might do it at some point. A week later, she'd gone, set a fastest no time for 14 hours. Like, yeah, amazing. But, yeah, she did an incredible job there. But. And so doing these rounds sounds and looks incredible. I was watching, as I said to you before we started recording, watching the Bob Graham double on, which I'm gonna come on to in a second on YouTube. And the scenery is just. I mean, I haven't been to the Lake District since I was doing Duke of Edinburgh, but the scenery is just absolutely spectacular, isn't it? And it's an amazing thing. So what then led you to say.

Do you know what?

One lap of these incredibly tough challenges, which far more people fail Than succeed.

At what made you think actually I'm gonna go and do two laps? And where did that come from?

Well, quite a few years ago Dark Peak gave me. Gave race organizers. It was a 10 year booklet of the things that, you know, people in Dark Peak had done. And one of them was Roger Bowmeister's account of doing the double Bob Graham. And initially I just read it with just. I was amazed that anyone like you say would even consider doing that. And then the way that he, he.

Was the only person that had done it at that point.

Is that right? Yes, yeah. I think two more people since then have tried it and got in 56 hours or something. But he's the only person that got under 48 hours, which I mean to do it in any time is incredible. But to do. Yeah, like you say, when 1, when generally people struggle to get do 1 in 24 hours, to do 2 in 48 is doubly, triply hard. I think. Crazy.

Let's be clear about it. It's crazy. So what made you want to have a go at it?

Well, I think I'm probably trying to model myself on Roger Bovine. He's still out thinking of crazy things to do in his 70s with two new knees. I think. No, I think it came around to being 10 years after I'd had the cancer and I wanted something round that would so I could spend a whole weekend on the hills with friends. And also I tried to do a BG record and not knocked much time off. So I reckoned actually I was getting a bit older and maybe I should just slow down and go for longer instead. It might work and actually it did, you know. Well, no, it was really hard and I felt absolutely shocking after 30 hours coming back into Keswick. But yeah, apart from that sort of. Well, actually no, that's probably about eight hours of feeling shocking. Quite a long time.

But it is absolutely mind boggling that you just go through. So what was the total time was about 47 hours something I think, wasn't it? So you were very much under the 48 hours and.

Yeah, 45 and a half. Yeah, because Rogers was 46 and a half.

Oh, you were 45 and a half, were you?

Yeah.

Ah, okay, thanks. Sorry.

So that was.

Yeah.

So the. And that I take it still stands as the fastest time.

Yeah, I mean I hear of people having a go and I realize actually how lucky I was with, with everything that day. The weather was perfect for me because it was cold and clear. Not. I don't think I was ever Too hot really. And yeah, my eating was pretty good. Yeah, I don't, yeah, can't remember being sick. Probably was maybe. And that always helps. And then the tiredness thing because I'd never run through two nights before, I just. That was really shockingly horrible. But I took a power nap. I had a really good supporter, Adam Perry, who nagged me to have a power nap. And after I'd had 10 minutes I was a different person. I wouldn't have believed it myself.

It is amazing, isn't it, how I heard you say a few times on the on podcast that these power naps, because you didn't, you know, you didn't.

Used to have a power nap during.

The day while you were farming, even if it was, if, if you were, you know, during carving season. So. So yeah, I mean, would you just have one 10 minute power nap on a 45 hour race or do you have multiple ones?

The only other time I've really done the distance is the Tour de Gyence last year. So well, I've done the other doubles. So on the BG I had 10 minutes and then on the Ramsey I tried having the 10 minutes twice and I wasn't. You've got to be so tired to just drop asleep just like that. I wasn't tired enough. So on the Ramsey I actually did three nights without any sleep in the end. And then on the Padi I did have, I tried a couple of times and then there was one time when I just, I knew I needed the 10 minutes and I had the 10 minutes and that sorted me out. And on the Tour de Giance, so it's a lot longer. It's 200 and some miles. You set off on Sunday and I wanted to finish about Thursday, so I knew I was going to need some sleep. But I kept it to like 45 minutes on the Monday night, the Tuesday night and the Wednesday night and then had 10 minutes on the Thursday in the morning.

So I find that with Ultra Runners, I find this bit of it amazing. Is there anything you do to train for that kind of lack of sleep or anything you do to compensate for it?

I probably take a lot of caffeine. I had one of my water bottles, I had a coffee bag in there. And that I think even just the taste of it just perks me up. But I also think maybe, maybe all these years that I've not had, not got used to doing power naps at all. Maybe that's it. I just keep going because I was quite surprised how much sleep everybody else Seemed to need. It was, I was awake, I could do stuff, I was functioning. And you could see people just there with their heads down, not being able to really function. And I think that's when it, that's when you need to decide yourself whether you need to sleep or not. And it's really, it's coming down to how much time you're wasting by not sleeping. You, you should really just sleep and then you'll be far more efficient when you wake up at sorting yourself out and you probably move quicker. Yeah.

And it's also the bad decisions that you can make when you're really in kind of a sleep deprived state.

I know.

Interviewing Kerry Sutton and she ended up.

In the spine race, just literally clinging.

To a rock in the dark because she'd got herself so horribly lost that, you know, making bad decisions when she was over, overtired. So I, I can see that that's an issue too. And so you then went on having done the Bob Graham double, you went on and did a double in the Charlie Ramsey and the Paddy Buckley. And am I right in saying you've got fastest known ties for both of those as well?

At the moment, I'm the only person to have done those. So, yeah, they count as that.

And it doesn't sound like anybody's rushing to try and do those. I mean, that's, those are incredible achievements. And then. So how did the Berkeley Marathon compare? Well, tell people about what the Berkeley Marathon is, because it is a, it is a bizarre thing really, isn't it? But tell people about the Berkeley Marathon and how it compares to sort of the rounds.

Well, a lot more is out of your control with the Barclay. Like very little is in your control, actually, he makes that. So Laz set the Barclay up and on paper it looks like five loops of 20 miles. And in the film that Innovate made. Yeah, John Barkley, brilliant, by the way. Yeah. My friend goes, you know, he says, oh, you know, five loops of 20 miles, how hard can it be? Because, you know, yes, we've all done 100 mile races quite happily, but it's nowhere near like that because on a hundred mile race you usually have checkpoints that with lots of food and you don't have to think about where you're going and you don't have to carry all of your own food for 12 hours or however long it's going to take you to do one of the loops and then. Why? Yeah, it's in forests. The start time las decides an hour before you're going to Start that you're going to start. So for a 12 hour time slot you don't know when you're going to start. You're not allowed any GPS or any device like a proper watch. He gives you a watch but it's set to zero when you set off. So for a while you can figure out what time of day it really is. But then as your brain gets tired you can't subtract and add on like you say when you're tired. So the watch becomes useless thing that's just on your wrist really. So you have no idea what actual time it is. Which then when you've got a time limit of 60 hours is really important to actually know what time of day it is. Yeah. So what else? There's just lots of things that there is no support out there. So in the 20 miles there are two places you can pick up water apart from streams, but that's it. So there's no food or anything and you have to navigate completely yourself. There's no markings whatsoever. So there are these books out in the forest tied to trees or hidden under stones and he gives you a description of what you're supposed to find and you've got to sort of find which tree out of a thousand trees.

What kind of summed it up to me in terms of the difficulty of this thing is how many years has it been running? I can't remember how many years it's been running. Maybe you don't, but it's been running quite a while, hasn't it? And still only 15 people have completed it.

Yeah.

I mean that's insane. I mean that, you know. Yeah, I was, I couldn't believe. So you did this last year and I think you were the last woman standing, hence the name of the film that Innovate put out there. But yeah, nobody finished it that year, did they?

No, the weather came in.

Yeah. So I was gonna say tell us what went wrong for you on that day and. And you know what you will do when you get a chance to go back and have another go.

Yeah. So it was a really hot day when we set off. Definitely shorts and T shirts and all the Brits were sweating going up the first hill and it stayed hot like 20 degrees, 23 degrees all that day. And then so we did one loop in about, well, 11 and a half hours. Then we set off again at about 9:30 at night and we climbed maybe 700 meters and it dropped to like minus 5 and then start. It was due to rain, but it was due to the showers and it was just hailing and then snowing on us. And I think your body just cannot cope with that change in temperature, especially when you've already been going 12 hours, you're already energy depleted and we just hadn't. There was three of us running at the same time. Me, Stephanie Case, who'd done it before, done the route anyway, and Billy Reid from Ireland, who was again a first timer. So none of us had taken enough clothes to sort of survive out in that temperature. So we all struggled on absolutely wet through till we'd done about six hours and it was about two in the morning. And we got to a point where if we'd carried on, we'd have had to have finished really, or finished the loop or we could go down what they call Quitters Road. We chose to do Quitters Road and even then it took us till daylight to get back like three or four hours and we were jogging down this sort of forest track thing. It just took forever. So we were a long way out.

I mean, I can't stand being cold, you know, I don't tend to feel the cold so much when I'm running, but on the bike, my hand, I just can't stand it. So how did you deal with being that. I mean, that must be absolute torture, being that cold through to. Through to daybreak. And what will you do differently next time?

Well, I think I. I don't know how I sort of managed being that cold then. I know I was shivering for a lot of it. My hands were sort of so cold I couldn't get any food or anything out. So that was also not helping the problem because I couldn't eat anything to actually keep warm and I was actually carrying all the chuffing weight I couldn't eat, which was infuriating. But we were all in the same boat, so we couldn't even. Not one of us hands would work. So we had no way of helping each other out with this one. And yeah, next time it is. Actually I'm going to look at the weather a lot more closely and try and like John Barker, he was saying to me, oh, do you want to take this top and stuff at the support point. And I said, oh, no, I'll be fine. And I've asked him, in future just say you need to take this top, because he doesn't live there but he lives three hours away and he knows more about what the temperatures can do and maybe he'll be able to look at the weather while I'm not there and see that it's going to be worse than what it's forecast. But, yeah, actually, all last winter I was trying different gloves out because once your hands get cold, you are sort of stuffed because you can't get anything out of your rucksack. You can barely undo your rucksack because your fingers won't work. So you do need to keep your hands warm. And I know really what I should have done is stuff them under my jumper or, well, my clothes, and put them next to your stomach. That's the quickest way of warming my hands up anyway, but it's very unpleasant.

And have you found some gloves that will do the trick for next year?

Not really, because again, you need to work your hands, you need to work the compass. So to have thin enough gloves that are warm enough. But I think I've gone with like three. A layered system of gloves so that I've always got one liner on, then a thin mitt and then a thicker sort of buffalo mitt. I think might. Might do.

Actually, I switched to exactly that setup for cycling. And it. Brilliant, because it then means you've got different waterproof layers and different thickness layers. And the problem is certainly recycling. There's never, you know, there's never a set of gloves that's perfect for that day because, you know, or you need so many different sets of gloves. So that just gives you multiple variations. So that's really good. Do you know what brand of gloves that you decided to go for?

Well, they'd be Innovate. Do a thin glove with a little mitt thing. And then they also do a thicker. Like it's got thicker lining inside it, a mitt glove. And then buffalo. Do the buffalo mitts, which is fairly big and there's woolly inside.

Oh, okay. Oh, fantastic.

Buy them. Buy them in different sizes, then you can always get your hand in.

That sounds like good advice. And so of all these amazing races that you've done, rounds and bike marathons, things like that, and utmb, which I haven't even mentioned, of course, which one stands out as being your kind of the one memory that stands out as being the best, if you can make one.

I think it sort of is the double Bob Graham, in that I achieved what I set out to do, which disappointingly, I sort of didn't, with the Charlie Ramsey and the Paddy, which just annoys me.

How did you not set.

How did you not achieve what you wanted? Just from a time point of view.

Yeah, just the time. Yeah. So both of those things, it didn't go perfectly I think on the Padi, I sort of. We lost some time with navigation and then I didn't eat, so I was sort of. Yeah, I was sick and just had lack of energy. And then on the Ramsey, it was just way too hot. It was like really hot summer. And I've realized that over 20 degrees for 48, 50 hours is too much for me. I can't. Well, nobody could cope with the heat. I lost my supporters because they were all struggling in the heat. So, yeah, it's not only hard on me, it's hard on everybody.

Yes.

And us Brits aren't very good at dealing with the heat, are we? So thinking about your training then, is there anything that you've done in your training? Because you came, obviously you run all your life, but it seems to me that you only really came to running seriously, not an old age, but, you know, kind of in the middle of your life. What did you do in your training to make such incredible improvements in your running?

I think I was doing too many miles when I started doing the Paddy Buckley training. I just went to Wales a lot and I was actually running very tired, but didn't realize it. And maybe having the breast cancer made me realize that, well, I couldn't run all the time because I was even. And then for the. I think for the Charlie Ramsey round, the first one, I actually looked at training programs and actually, you know, thought out what. What you're supposed to be doing to your body, which is you're supposed to be. You're supposed to be stressing it and then you let it recover. So you need to recover as well. You don't just do the same mileage every week because then it never gets a chance to actually recover. So I think I sort of started putting speed working and long runs and hills. But then also I actually cut my mileage down from sort of 50 miles a week to say more like 35, 40.

And is that what it would still be now? 35, 40 would be.

Out. And like last weekend I did supporting of the BG on the Sunday and then a recce of the lakes in a day on the Monday, which would. So the BG I did legs three and four and then on the Sunday I did 24 miles of the lakes in a day recce. And so I think also I can just do the 40 miles in two days, which I think is good training for actually doing ultras. You do get a night recovery, but you're also learning how to run when you're tired.

And so would you then Typically. So that week you maybe not run the rest of the week or would you just have a lot more higher mileage week?

Yeah, I'd have a higher mileage week. It depends on how your legs recover after that. Because I'm also very aware then like today, two days later that if I run I have to watch my ankles and things because you're probably not going to run with the same spring, you know, your legs are tied, whatever you think they feel like they are actually fatigued, aren't they? So you have to be careful for the following week.

And so what would a typical week look like in your training then in terms of, you know, you say, you know, some speed work and some hills and some longer runs. What would a typical training week look like?

Well, in a normal year.

Yes, in a normal year.

So yeah, usually Mondays is a speed or hills or a sort of Monday race. We have summer races in Dart Peak. Then Tuesdays is an easy day because I coach juniors generally. Wednesdays day off, Thursdays is a long run and then the weekend I would hope to go either to do an Al race which is a long 20 mile foul race or to recce something or spend a day lakes or Wales or somewhere. I mean I can't, I don't do that every week but that would be nice.

And how has that changed given the year we've had?

How has that changed in the lockdown and this year?

Yeah, so obviously we were in lockdown so we weren't. We couldn't travel anywhere. And although I can see the peaks from where I live, I can't. I could probably have cycled there but I'm not that. Yeah, it didn't seem that important when I can run out of my door onto the countryside. So I found routes around here that I was doing and straight away I just started running every day because it was something that you could do that was enjoyable and use some time up because in a way I ended up with like quite a lot of time because I wasn't going and doing all this other stuff with juniors and my club and everything. And I think I knew I needed some sort of routine. So it was exactly the same of every Monday would be a long run, every Tuesday would be speed. Every Wednesday I set up a little virtual series. So Saturday was a four mile race route. So everybody had a four mile route that they all went out at some point and raced themselves on it and then posted their time. Sunday was a score event and I got caught quite. I used to look at an OS map And say, okay, so today we have to collect churches and schools and ponds and something else. So every week it was a different sort of format and that was because it also took up your time just planning your debt, planning your route. And I was really hefty on that. If you were. You had an hour to collect as many points as possible and if you were back a minute late, you lost like 20 or even 50 points. It was really. So it was really stressful running around thinking whether you'd got like, you've got 10 minutes left and had you got enough time to go and get that. And I had to make them changeable because I live in the countryside so I could find a trig point and ponds and things. But some people live in the middle of Sheffield, so then they had to. We had to find schools and I had to run down to Murfield where I would never run. I would never run into Murfield, run around Murfield trying to collect schools and then run back again.

But it did bring out a very, you know, I think it brought out.

An amazing side in people, didn't it? I mean, we were doing our own version of that. Whether it be not so much on the running, we were kind of. I've always tended to run on my.

Own, but on the cycling we were.

Doing, we did a challenge where we were cycling to every village in Rutland and then we were setting up kind of loops and racing each other all but, you know, individually.

And then we've also got into some.

Wild swimming as well as groups because of course all the swimming pools are closed. So it's just been. I think people have been very innovative in terms of, and supporting the community around them and because, you know, within the knowledge that whether it's running, cycling, swimming, actually for our mental well being, you know, it's a really important thing and I think it's really helped people that have embraced it during what has obviously been a difficult.

So on the Wednesday night, on the Wednesday, I called it the alternative. And the first one was just fancy dress because that's fair. So you had to do your four mile route in one. And then the second week was the Olympics. So you have to do as many of the disciplines as possible in your back garden or even in your flat or something. Yeah, hurdles and swimming and high jump. And I just. We went on like this and this. Wednesdays got really hysterical. It was funny just to see how much planning everybody put into doing, like trying to do swimming in their garden where people actually put these like bits of Plastic down and then had people with hoses, you know. Yeah, it was good, actually. And like everyone now is. I think it just brought a lightness to it when there wasn't much lightness around at that point, was there? Yeah, yeah.

No, I think that's absolutely fantastic. Well done for kind of building a community or a. Around you that you could help. I've got to talk about nutrition. I couldn't help but watch. I mean, I speak to a lot of people about this, about nutrition and how they fuel their adventures. I couldn't help but pick up baked beans, rice pudding, yogurt and lots of tea and coffee. What else have I missed? There was something. Oh, fish and chips.

That.

That was it. And I thought, well, that's not what I expected to see. Using to fuel your.

Your long runs is.

Do you have energy bars and gels and things like that, or is it all kind of those traditional foods?

No, I have. I don't really. They're not really energy bars. They're just brunch bars, actually, from the supermarket.

They're not very scientific then.

No. And tonics, you know, the caramel wafer things that tonic do.

Okay.

So now I think when I first started, I looked at all the calorific value of bars and. But I think it's more important that you can get it down. Then it's got loads of calories and then you can't get it down. A lot of the bars I find are just too hard to chew. And also I think the flavor in them as well. Because obviously how do you get so many calories into a bar without plonking a load of chemicals in there or, you know, how do you do it sort of reasonably naturally. I'm not saying a brunch bar is natural, but it's just something that I'm used to eating on a daily basis. So when I take it on the hill, I've also found that some of them don't cope very well with being cold. They go very hard, so in the heat they melt. So brooch bars are fairly resilient to sort of heat and cold. But no, I do use the gels. I don't live on them, but I tend to. I'd say I have three in one one BG leg, usually 10 minutes before a climb that I don't like, or if I'm dropping to a road crossing, because usually then you've got a climb and usually you're going to eat quite a lot of normal food in the bottom, but it won't have kicked in by the time you need to do the climb. But then yeah, I like to rely on some proper food. I just, I don't know whether I have a dodgy stomach but I was, I used to be sick quite a lot on these rounds and since I started using more proper food then I'm not, I'm not as sick. I just find generally a rice pudding or a fruit salad and it was actually the long distance walking association events and the fellsmen that got me into the rice puddings and the fruit salads and baked beans because they have all that stuff and I found that you could practice what you know, you could try different things on their events.

And do you find it okay running straight after eating a plate of baked beans on toast?

Yeah, I think everybody's different. You know, some people like their pork pies and their sandwiches whereas I find my. I need more saliva, too much saliva with a sandwich. Whereas you don't, you know, the wet stuff I think gives you some moisture as well. I think.

As I, as I'm saying I'm not.

A baked beans fan but as I'm saying it, I can see the kind.

Of the liquid, you know, they're very, they're very soft.

You digest them very easy, I would imagine. Yeah, yeah. I just thought it was really interesting and so how would you. So something like utmb, how would you fuel that?

They have a noodle soup thing that's really good and it's quite salty and depending on. I would take a container and put it it in the container as well. So I didn't have to stop too long at the checkpoints. I could actually keep going and then eat bits of it on the way because I don't like to have a huge meal and then try and set off. You just need like a cup full of noodles and then. But then, you know, you might want another cup full in two hours or something. So. And then I also. The utmb, you just get one drop bag. So yeah, I'd fill that up with my own food of the rice puddings and the fruit salads and just get what I can down and carry the rest.

Yeah, it's just, I just find it absolutely fascinating. I completely agree with you in terms of, you know, so many of the products looking like a chemical experiment on when you look at the ingredients list and that just seems to be very chaotic, counterintuitive to me. But yeah, I was just fascinated by that. So that's brilliant. And do you do anything in particular to avoid injury? You know because you're running huge distances. Anything you do in particular with avoiding injury in mind?

I have sports massages maybe, yeah, once every sort of month or fight. If nothing's going wrong then. Or I'm not really training for anything, then I'll generally go once every five or six weeks. Just because you can have a knot in your calf that you don't actually know about. But if I'm actually training or building up my mileage to do something, then probably once every three weeks. And I've got a couple of sports massages as well. A guy that goes in like very deep and a lady that does more of a general. Just loosening off and she can work on something deeply. But generally she gives me. She's more local so it's easier to have to see her every sort of four weeks. So, yeah, I think that's made a big difference in what I do. And also just that I understand you can go to a sports massage and you think you've got a problem somewhere, but actually the root of the cause is somewhere else. So, yeah, it's important to sort of realize that. And then also, yeah, I mean, there's a foam roller here, I've got like wobble board, things like that. So, yeah, I did quite a lot things like that myself when. But yeah, and then I suppose, listen, yeah, listen to if you've got a niggle and instead of just ignoring it, going and seeing the sports massage sooner rather than later.

Yeah, yeah, get it. Get in early. That sounds like that. And when you're in these dark moments that you described at sort of maybe four o'clock in the morning, how do you get yourself through it? Have you got any mental tricks that you. That you use to drag yourself through these? The dark times.

I do have now. I mean, initially I just used to sort of stumble on a bit, but now I know that you waste quite a lot of time in stumbling. So the quicker you can get yourself back out of these. So trying to think positively is the like, what can I do to rectify this that's going wrong. And actually I know now that as soon as I start feeling a bit grumpy, I probably need some sugar. It's more of a lack of energy thing. If for some reason I just start feeling grumpy and a bit like everything's not going well and why am I doing this then? Giving myself a gel or some sweets or just eating something, something. And I think also I know that I'm quite stubborn and if I don't achieve something, the first time, if I drop out, I know I'll just come back and do it again. And my supporters all know that as well, because I even said that to myself on the Paddy Buckley when I wanted to drop out. I just thought, well, you've done. You've done like 30 hours. You'll only come back and do the same 30 hours again to get yourself into this, the same position, and you might not feel any better, so you might as well just carry on and do another, like, 20 hours and at least finish it.

That's a good way of thinking about it and just saying, well, it saves me doing that first 30 hours a second time. Do you think going through the experience of cancer has helped you with.

With your.

With your running from a mental point of view or from a physical point of view? I suppose, but do you think it's helped you in any way?

I think it's. Yeah, it's made me realize that I do this for fun, so it's not really fair to take it out on anybody else. You know, I wasn't really. I didn't have a choice with the cancer, but I do have a choice with this. You can't really complain about feeling crap with when you're running. When you've chosen to put yourself there. That's another little telling off to myself, really, that I. But also, yeah, if there is something that I want to do, I do just. I do try and do it, because when I was told I had cancer, that was like, well, crikey, there's loads of things I wanted to do. And I've always just thought, I'm gonna have all these years in front of me and I might not have. So, yeah, it's important to do the things that you do want to do. Not totally selfish. You know, you've obviously got to think about everybody else and work it in.

But, yeah, I think that's brilliant advice. None of us ever know when our time is up. So if you've got something that's important to you, you've got to get on and do it while you know that you can. Because we're never quite sure what's around the corner, are we?

No.

And what about. Are there any products that you particularly like that, you know, whether it be running shoes, whether it be, you know, anything that you found, really kind of that's been significant in you getting faster or happier on your running?

Well, it was the innovate shoes that I first started wearing back in 2006 or something. Whenever they first came out. Yeah, I picked A pair up at a Saunders from the guy who actually owns Innovate. And there he was, stood on his little stand with these weird grey shoes. They were called mud rocks at that point. And. And. Yeah. And then from there. And I sort of. I was really keen to get more Innovate stuff and when I got the chance to be sponsored by them, then I think that was 2012, then. That's made life really, really nice, especially as a lot of. The clothing designer is a woman. So instead of wearing men's small, which is what we were doing as women, we're now wearing women's like, shaped clothing, which is. They. It does make your life a lot easier when it doesn't ride up at the back and the arms are long enough and you're not and the shoulders fit and everything just fits really nicely. Yes. I think the mud claws, actually, I just. I rate them. I've always. When. When they came out, I've just worn them from Evermore for my rounds. And then for the ultra stuff, there's various. They've just brought out a new Terra Ultra, which is a nice shoe. I've been trying that for the last couple of months, so. And then actually I got used to using poles as well. And the Lekki poles. I mean, the UK is a bit funny about poles. Sometimes people, they're called cheat sticks. But if you go abroad, do the utmb, you're the odd one out if you haven't got poles. And after that 60 miles, you wish you had got poles. So, yeah, I like the Lekki poles for that. I've used them on a couple of rounds, but they're not quite as suited to the English terrain because it's a bit boggy.

Stuck in. In the bog.

Do they?

Yeah, they're really great for the rocky paths. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, fantastic. And what's the worst advice that you tend to hear and maybe where does it come from?

I think, yeah, that's. I don't know because I don't really listen to a lot of advice now. I'm not even on Strava because I just think I know what works for me now. But maybe that's where people do go wrong a little bit in that they. They see other people doing loads and loads of miles. They think they need to do that as well. Whereas everybody's different, we will respond to different training and we've all got different life and work and trying to cram too much in. Everything suffers in the end. So, yeah, I'm not sure as to actually advice, but Trying to keep up.

With other people sounds like. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Finding the type of training and regime that works best for you. That sounds like a sensible approach to me.

Yeah. What about books? Do you.

I don't know if you're a reader of many books, but are there any particular books that you. I mean, the one that I refer back to, as I say I only recently started reading it, but I'm nearly through it is Feet in the Clouds, which is just an amazing book to give you an insight into the world of fell running, which I knew nothing about until that point. But are there any other books that you have found really valuable or that you recommend regularly to people?

I mean, I'm just reading Shane Benzie's book. The title's gone.

Oh, yes, it's on my reading list. I can't think of it either. But anyway, yes.

Yeah, I've done some work with him. And also when you were saying about injuries, I used to have like quite bad knees. Well, not bad knees, but they used to give me a bit of gyp. And I realized that you need to. Posture is so important for running. And I read some books, you know, and like your head's the heaviest object in your body and if it tilts forward, it just aff everything your spine and your posture and everything, you know, your head wants to be right above your shoulders and this is all. And actually reading Shane's book, he's just. He's just sort of putting all that in a nutshell. I've only got halfway through the book, but it all just makes so much sense. And to run relaxed and with fluid, fluidly, you're not putting all that impact through your. Through your legs.

Yeah, yeah, I did see that book and somebody else recommended it. Oh, I think it was Damien because I think Damian hall mentioned it, but I think. Is it only just come out? Is that right? Yeah, I think when he mentioned it hadn't actually been released at that point.

Yeah, yeah. Damien's been doing a lot of work with him and it really showed on the Pennine Way when he was flying down in Duida al Akuma. Believe it, he was.

That was another incredible run, wasn't it? I mean, that was fantastic. I did ask him about the Bob Graham round, but he said that Kylian Jornay just put the bar too high. He couldn't see getting anywhere near that. So he's not. But who knows that maybe that's him keeping it under his chest or under his. Under his jumper like Beth was.

But Finley's record Is a great one, isn't it? I did Finley Wild on the Ramsey this weekend. Yeah, 40 hours, I think. Yeah.

Amazing.

Yeah.

And so what are you looking forward to at the moment?

What do you.

Assuming we can get to back to some sort of normality, what are you hoping that the next 12 months will bring for you?

Yeah, I mean, if we get back to any sort of normality, all the races that have been postponed this year to next year, it's going to be really busy sort of year. But also, I've actually quite liked not having races every year. So. We've got a property in Galloway now, and although we couldn't. It was very frustrating when we couldn't go there. It's been nice now that we can travel up to there and work on the property to have more time and be sort of more relaxed and actually, I think a lot of people have done this. They've spent more time with their family. They appreciate that we will appreciate each other. Even this morning I was driving around and people were actually just smiling and I thought, that's so nice. It never used to happen, did it? We weren't like, as nice to each other as what we sometimes are. I think everyone appreciates life a lot more and the fact that they can get in their car and go to the hills and come back again, it's not a fact. Like, there's no such thing now as a bad holiday. Any holiday is a good holiday.

I think it's reframed a lot of things, isn't it? There's a lot of people realizing that we actually live in an amazing country and there's so much to explore here. We don't need to go abroad. And there's some simpler ways of making holidays and time off and time with the family really entertaining, as opposed to, you know, just thinking that that was, you know, wasted time. So. Yeah, I agree. I think it's. People have. Most people have really come into their own in this environment.

Yeah.

So in terms of races, do you think you'll. Will you have another go at the Barclay Marathon? Are you going to be. Because there's no woman has ever finished the Berkeley Marathon. And we were all hoping that you were going to be the first one last year, but are you going to go back and have another go at that?

Well, I'm going to put an application in again, write another essay as to what I haven't done this year. That means he should let me have another go. Yeah. My Covid application to why allowed to run the Berkeley. So, yeah, I really hope so. I really hope I can go back there next year and the Tour de Giance again in September in Italy.

Are there any races that you haven't done that you think I'd really like, or any rounds that you haven't done that you'd really like to have a go at?

It'll have to be something in Scotland, I think, just because I'm starting to fall in love with, like going up there and doing stuff up there now. Yeah, I haven't really thought of any other races. I tend to. Yeah. I mean, the Tour de Giance is there and so I think I'm concentrating on that maybe after I have a nutrition. I mean, a good race to me is not always a position. It's just how I feel in the race. If I have a good race and I know I've done my best in that race, I think that's where I like to say, okay, I can move, you know, I don't need to do that race again or I can move on. I can look for something else.

Brilliant. Well, Nikki, it's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you. I just, you know, doing the research on what you've achieved was just an absolute pleasure.

You know, watch.

I highly recommend people go and watch the. On YouTube. The Bob Graham Round double and the Barclay Marathon Last Women Standing. They were both brilliant and I'm going to go back and watch some more of them. They certainly did a great job at inspiring my two daughters, which just thought it was absolutely incredible. So it's been an absolute pleasure. You've given us so much good advice here and you're doing is very much inspiring. So a huge thank you for giving up your time to talk to me today on the podcast.

Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Sure you'll agree. Just an incredible lady, you know, to achieve everything she's done, including coming through cancer, was. Has just been amazing, you know, and I think that the Bob Graham double and the other doubles that she's done are just phenomenal. And there's so much we can learn from her approach to running and how her approach to training, her approach to nutrition, how it doesn't always have to be the super scientific approach. If you want to find out more about Nikki, you can find out more at RunBG, which stands for Bob Graham run BG co.uk and she's also on Twitter and Instagram. But I hope you learned loads from Nikki and what an inspiration she is. I certainly have learned a huge amount from chatting to her and been inspired to take on more fell running. And also if you want to find out more about fell running, I highly recommend the book Feet above the Clouds. It's just such a wonderful read. It gives you such a great insight into the world of fel running and the history behind that incredible sport. So I hope you enjoyed that. And please, if you if you're out training with your friends or on your own, share some photos on Instagram with the hashtag tribathlon. So, hashtag tribathlon. It'd be amazing to see you out exploring the world, whether you're on your bike, on your feet or swimming. So thank you very much for listening to this episode of the triathlon podcast. As always, I'm Charlie Redding. Keep Training. This podcast is brought to you by Innovate.com incredible running shoes that keep Damien hall and Nikki Spinks, amongst others, flying along the trails. If you go to innovate.com that's innov-8.com and if you use the discount code tribathlon10, that's tribathlon in all capitals 10. You can get 10% off your purchase@innovate.com I know you will love their shoes. In particular, I love the Terra Ultras. So go check out innovate.com and don't.

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